expender i know i didn't want to be shivering my way through it so i thought i'll put a bit of heat on and that way i can relax this is a good hopefully quick opening topic now uh you know i come i come from austin texas uh a land of warmth and we don't have this thing we have this in in uh in the states in new england and i think in europe you'll have to tell me if if in your neck of of of uh the world you have this but we have something called radiators here which are these gigantic pieces of metal and i think hot water comes into them and there's like this valve on one side and you can like any valve you can it's kind of like it's kind of like the mystery of like uh you know you go to a hotel and uh you know they have they have like that that shower knob and you just have to resolve the mystery of how do i get the perfect balance of hot and cold water and this i feel like when it comes to a radiator this knob it's one knob that you can turn all the way off and you can spin it several times to turn it all the way on and i don't have the background to really know just the whole concept of that knob like like the more i turn it on does that mean the warmer it is or is it a binary thing and then like is each knob different and then what's the theory of the radiators like just like because because in the central heating world all you do is you go to the thing and you put in of course in fahrenheit like what degree you want and then you walk away and it's it's perhaps the simplest device in a household even simpler than a washing machine which usually requires two to three button purses just to make the thing go uh but well you've stumbled upon uh you know a topic that i know a little bit about so uh these valves are called trvs and they contain a sort of a liquid mixture if you like like a like an oil or something and depending on what you set that thing to and how warm the room is it will either push a pin in or out to allow water to flow
2:03into the radiator or out of the radiator so wow that's how it works you turn your knob and you said you don't do diy you clear i don't now now wait wait wait i i was i was so amazed at your initial explanation that i missed the second part is it actually taking into account the temperature of the room what's what's really yes not usually on a regular trv these days it would be filled with a sort of an oily mixture and as the room warms up um it will release the it will close the pin and as the room cools down it will release the pin okay okay so is the advice that i should just turn it all the way on or does that like maximize it like what do i want to do that will give you the most heat most of the time so okay you know you should sort of set it to a level where if the room's cold it'll come on if the room's kind of okay it'll go off that's fascinating finding the balance is hard but i've got these right so okay and and then and then i was gonna come to those oh yeah yeah i was thinking maybe we should install but i feel like i'd have to you gotta probably turn off the whole system and drain it or something i i don't know this feels like this this pops straight off trvs can be changed any by anybody other brands are available okay okay so so then so then the way the whole thing works is i have i have a hot water heater somewhere in my house i have one of those fancy ones that's like not a gigantic tank i don't i don't i mean that's the old school american thing is you have a tank that's like about as tall as me and you hook it up to electric or gas and it just keeps it hot and and like so i have one of those new ones that's just like this box hanging on a wall that i guess does it on demand and uh so essentially what the radiator system is doing is taking very hot water and putting it into these big metal things so that as the hot water cools down i'm no physicist i got a degree in philosophy and english but the as as the water cools down the heat goes out of this highly conductive
4:08this thing called metal and and in theory heats up the whole space right right yeah and now now it then flows out of the extremely not good uh double glazing into the atmosphere now that was my next at all that was my next question is i feel like a lot of my radiators are right underneath windows which seems like a bad idea like it seems like you would want the radiator to be against a solid wall towards the center of the house so that it has the maximum so even if because i think i think hot stuff wants to go towards cold stuff right or hot and cold want to equalize so if you had the radiator on the center part of your house it's and then you've got coldness radiating from the glass you've got coldness coming towards the heat and so the coldness is going to like pull the heat towards the middle of the room and then also it's going to get the chance for the coldness to kind of like heat up a little bit whereas if you have the radiator right next to the window it's just as you were joking it's going to just like suck out the glass and uh so it seems i might hazard to use the word stupid to say putting a radiator next to a window is not a good idea well having read a bit about that because i had similar thoughts um apparently no putting it by the window is exactly where it should be ah perfect a kind of a wall of hot air that stops cold air coming in through the window it rises up towards the ceiling then goes around the room okay provides almost like curtains on a window provides insulation and therefore you actually do want them oh man that's a relief i guess that also explains that when you walk into a uh a store you feel this like down draft of hot air like like right next to the door maybe yeah same philosophy acts as a barrier oh man that's such a relief to hear well i thought maybe just you know uh stream of hot air describes me as a as a podcast co-host so that's good phomo dynamics is hard though isn't it it's really it's difficult to get your head around it's like
6:08what yeah all right okay all set from here to a data data center design now this and then we're back 15 years in my career just to close that off that might explain why the kitchen is the coldest place in our house because it has single pane glass and it has big french doors and the radiator is on the opposite wall of the the french doors so maybe uh there you go that might be a problem you need a new kitchen it's the only solution you want to maybe put your pcs under the window oh that's my run nvidia graphics cards on them also yeah my my bitcoin mining farm and put right over there you'll get your bitcoin and a warmer yeah that's right that's right well speaking of warm rooms uh last week we finally had our SpringOne online uh conference i think SpringOne essentials as as we called it and it was it was uh i believe we're also repeating it for people in the uh the non-western part of the world uh is that next week i think it's february at some point february 3rd is it second third yeah and uh you know i think uh i it was we had a three-day event last week if you want to go to SpringOne dot io i don't think we have the replays there but you can register and probably be notified when there's replays yeah they're coming yes yeah and uh i i you know i i have to admit i didn't watch every single talk uh however uh i the the the talk i want the the three that i wanted to highlight are are three that uh on the first day there's there was a there was a a a good opening from our ceo ragu and i think i think what was what was vital there for people who care about this space is just really getting a sense of like how application development kind of fits into uh what we here at vmware are up to um and you can kind of hear him it's it's you know a three-minute talk so it's not like you're going to have the entire world explained to you but you get you get a good indication of like how how all of this fits together and then after that uh James Watters had a talk kind of explaining the idea of uh what a golden
8:12path is which is sort of the theme of of a lot of the conference and kind of a little bit of the background and the why of how that came about and then finally uh you know uh uh vp of engineering in in tanzu katherine uh gave a talk at the end that i think did a pretty good job of taking that golden path thinking and explaining how things like the tanzu application platform kind of fit in and uh and satisfy that but it being SpringOne there was also a tremendous amount of commentary uh commentary content about spring and java and things like that which which was which is fun to watch what what uh what were your highlights been what did you like about the the three days there uh well it we should probably mention that we were hosting when we were hosting watch parties so we had the indeed uh thrill and pleasure of meeting uh with uh customers and users of spring as well in those locations so while they watched with us on the big screen uh the cinema screen if you like uh the uh the majesty of spring as uh as was covered by uh by the event and the stuff i saw i saw three i saw um jürgen talking about spring framework six and all the sort of improvements that have gone into spring framework six which are too many to mention i mean there's just tons of stuff in there uh also um i saw sebastian and and friends talking about um spring boot three and uh the native stuff that's now included the graal vm stuff and i saw a talk on uh tanzo application platform as well from um uh greg and uh cora was it a few other yeah uh they were they were chatting about uh spring um sorry springs use in uh tanzo application platform or using spring in tanzo application platform uh so they were really good talks so and not like super long or anything i think about 40 minutes each something like that so really consumable easy to get your head around um so when the recordings turn up i would definitely recommend
10:15that folks check those out but more than anything it was just a chance to chat with people from the uh from the community and ed you were there as well weren't you we got to spend some time together i was we finally got to meet which was great and like i said it actually was lovely i think that's my first time going to the those vmware offices anyway um it's my first time back in a vmware office in years so just yeah customers meeting other vmware people meeting you that was great which uh which offices were you at you're at we were in the uh the old pivotal office oh yeah yeah so old street uh those are nice it's nice yeah yeah it's very comfortable and uh the folks there were very warm and welcoming we were we felt very at home uh straight away when we uh when we arrived uh right until we got a fire alarm that kicked us out at the end we did get thrown out by a fire alarm right at the end of the event so the end of the event was kind of curtailed somewhat by oh that's a bummer for a fire alarm that went off but um someone went home happy with uh with a huge lego kit that beautiful lego kit of uh i think there's a formula one and mclaren oh yes one you know because of our tire with mclaren that's what we gave away at the uh that the amsterdam uh watching party yeah yeah how was it it was nice we we actually uh watched the second day uh which which was interesting so i i uh i did a a selection i replayed that uh the the that video from ragu and the one from uh James Watters and we had some discussion about it and then we watched uh that one you mentioned uh about cora i'm not about her that would be fun if there was a a presentation just about her but uh that that had her in it and yeah i mean i think i think that talk was a great like it was a good uh demonstration of like what what our deal is here like what we're going for and like what the the the vision you will that we're trying to do with the tonsu application platform and i think you know that's one of
12:18that that kind of touches on one of the things i'm always going on about is like so if i were to like say what type of developer do you want me to be what would that explanation be right and you know the first rung to that thing is always like oh it's a developer for everyone and we don't and i'm like no no no you you can't that that's cheating right like in the same way that like it you know back back in my day you would say like i'm a j2e developer it's like i want that kind of label right and and if someone says they're like a java enterprise uh developer you can make about assumptions about 70 of how they work the tools they use the architectures they follow like it's all there and i think like that's what i'm interested in our whole cloud native space evolving is just like you know we need to come up with what style of development is cloud native is way too broad and there's too many options like when we were in our green room talking earlier i was i was uh recalling that every time i read uh ed's weekly news wrap-up of stuff i'm like boy our industry needs to calm down we have too many options like just like all over the place but anyhow i think you can get you can start to get a sense of like what a tonsu developer is from uh watching that that that video there which was nice also the london offices are great because i think it uh it contains uh you know this part of the world's only operational ice machine as far as i can tell that it just has and i think it has two of them and you can just go there they still i think there's even pint glasses so you could get a pint glass and just fill it full of ice and uh have a unique experience uh for for europe and the uk ice check into it that's one of my hobby horses obviously well how about uh uh we also had the state of spring come out uh which which i i have to admit i've only given like a cursory look i need to sit down you know usually i do uh i get lucky that i get asked to do some analysis of our state of kubernetes and and other ones but i haven't like spent the time to really sit down and and look at
14:21what's going on in there but what uh i know you have been and if not you can pretend like you have what what do you uh what do you see in there that's interesting oh you know me i love a survey oh surveys are brilliant yeah so many charts demographics yeah pretty graphics all that uh yeah infographics as well i'm a sucker oh yeah and they all agree it's brilliant i love a survey and this one's no different so this year's state of spring uh survey it was actually from 22 but it was released uh to coincide with the uh spring event so um you can go and check it out there's a there'll be a link in the show notes but yeah there's tons of stats in there some really interesting stuff so um 55 of the 1400 or so respondents are now reporting that they use mostly modern architectures with 93 of those folks saying it's microservices that they've chosen as their modern architecture so huge numbers of folks now using uh microservices which is uh really good to see you know it's over the past few years it's been growing and it continues to grow so that's fantastic um big upswing in some uh adjacent technologies as well so uh folks using kubernetes more uh with springs folks using uh spring in production uh kubernetes environments both on public cloud and on-prem as well so you know there's some numbers in there about that you should check it out uh also open api and um graphql are both um seeing upswing this year and api is now the top use case for spring so most people uh the majority the largest number of folks are using spring for things like api so apis rest api is very very very popular and projects adjacent to that like open api documentation for api um interfaces is also growing now let me ask you something about that because i i i i looked over that and i was thinking it probably is the case
16:27that you could choose multiple things you're using spring for right and and and like if there's a rise in microservices like it means that people are using spring to make apis for whatever other application they're making and and so i guess what i'm driving at is like it's what you should i i think what you should think is that like if you exclude a using spring to make apis then you get a different picture of like the types of applications people are using because it seems like if 93 of people who responded are using microservices then pretty much all of them are making apis right and so like it put another way it's not the case it's probably not the case that most people that the only thing they're making are apis right like they're also making other things other types of applications which you know it's fine to get a full representation but it makes me think that like the other analysis you need to do is like excluding apis and like middleware stuff that you all use like what are the types of applications use like you know analogously in one of our uh open source surveys like uh when you ask people what types of open source they use by far away the number one type of open source they use is operating systems linux and so you kind of have to be like well yes but you know everyone uses that so you've got to throw that out and like look at the rest but i don't know that's my theory not to dismiss again using it for apis but that like it's it's something that that everyone is doing so it is the number one use case yeah exactly and it's important to say that that 93 is of the 55 who said they were on modern architecture so there's the other 45 who aren't who are probably doing all sorts of other things you know timely for making um websites and web uis and uh building uh you know web applications uh front ends
18:27and stuff there'll be front ends in other things you know front ends in angular or uh uh other um stuff like express or whatever so so there's there's always going to be a huge variety and i think um spring does very well there because it has such a comprehensive set of modules that you you'll always whatever your interest you'll always be able to find something that will allow you to build it in spring and i think that's part of the reason why it still remains popular you know spring doesn't do the sort of one trick pony thing it's a very um flexible uh framework so yeah so that's good other news from that particular survey uh stuff that i liked more than half said they're going to rely more on spring so it's so it's gaining traction still even though it's a what 20 20 20 to 25 year old framework you know it's still going really really strong and people are still um you know double downing on uh using that particular framework so that's good um 30 say they plan to use growl vm for faster startup times and uh for smaller app footprints now growl vm is only a few years old so that's it's showing incredible pace at being understood by everyone and also folks are starting to think about how they could use it and some are even using it um in more uh detail and more um places as well so yeah there's some really good stuff in there but here's one i wanted to just quickly cover right a lot of folks also saying that the learning curve is getting more difficult now that's not a reflection of the learning curve of spring per se i think it's a reflection of the fact that everybody now has developer relations folks and they're all putting out tons of content and the content is everywhere so folks are now struggling to find the time to build together the sort of learning path that they need in order to pick stuff up uh so there's a there is a part of the survey that
20:31talks about the the learning curve getting steeper and what can be done about that and the good news is that the folks seem to really like the um documentation from spring they find that really really useful and i think i do as well i i read it regularly and i think it is some of the best documentation that's out there for any framework i would say so they really like that but also we've added um spring academy something that we launched at SpringOne essentials where folks can sign up and go and take learning courses at their own pace in their own homes in their own office working environments wherever they might be they can sign up for courses and start to learn spring from the folks who make it from the the spring team themselves so um there there are new ways coming online that allow folks to um get into spring and and start to understand it more and then and then there's always your videos you're good at that i think i think between the spring documentation the spring academy and bin you have all you need to know about the spring world and occasional python and other things like that that's good we we need we need to have uh the daily bin where you have a little little video hey there's an idea yeah uh-huh yeah i i'm pretty sure my wife would disagree that this is a requirement well you can you can do like the mr ben you know you go in you come out in a different costume every day and you do a little short about spring it'd be brilliant yeah put my boiler hats on yeah yeah that would be great well uh and and then we have you know uh we we have like so many other talks uh that we'll be releasing we we have a i don't know what would you call it been a follow-on conference stream like i i forget the exact date but uh like SpringOne will be at uh vmware explorer uh this year in august and between now and then every tuesday and thursday uh we'll have uh us what would what would be a uh basically a SpringOne talk so the it's it's kind
22:35of like the endless summer except it's winter fall and then summer uh going into uh will it be fall i guess so i don't i forget when fall begins i'm not i'm not a druid so i don't know uh and but you'll you'll every every uh twice a week you'll get to see some other talks i don't know about about y'all but i have a talk coming up on my application modernization stuff i think in may at some point i don't know that's so far in the future but uh it's great all that stuff is free and uh you can tune into it uh you can see it streaming uh here where you're watching this now uh but if you go to SpringOne.io you can you can check that out yeah what i liked is that as the weeks go on so it's every tuesday and thursday all the way up through to august the heat is rising in the northern hemisphere the whole time it's just getting hotter and hotter every week until like may it's already starting so you know the the big thick jumpers are coming off ed uh we'll be able to get rid of those we'll be able to turn the heating down with your your tv ms or whatever tvrs what what are they the trvs yeah trvs down uh you'll be able to just glow bask in the glory of the of the golden path to SpringOne spring and spring yeah that that would be nice well well speaking of surveys the other thing that i wanted to to to go over and ed you've done some some good analysis of this is dynatrace came out i don't know you'll have to tell me is this like a one time or an ongoing thing but they came came out with their uh they don't call it state of spring but like what's going on in the spring world and uh their methodology right i guess i don't know if you would call this a survey but dynatrace being dynatrace uh kind of like the other ones like datadog and new relic they can kind of look over anonymized um the stuff that they monitor and manage i assume it's anonymized i didn't see any names in the pdf like you know the u.s agriculture department runs this many clusters that would be fun uh but uh
24:42like it it was a pretty good i think a a pretty good uh analysis of like what's going on in their user base uh with kubernetes and it looks like from what they said they analyzed 4.1 billion kubernetes pods which seems like a lot from thousands of customers globally but what uh what are some of the highlights that stood out to you ed what what did you like in there so i like the fact as you like you said they're a big provider right and they get to see an awful lot of workloads come and go so it's a decent size um a lot of the surveys come out and we asked 20 people and you're like right don't care about that this one at least was global covered a load of stuff you know which is good um they picked up on a couple of interesting things and had some analysis i wouldn't have thought to do as well um so they picked up annual growth rate of 127 um and that's for the number of kubernetes clusters hosted in the cloud and then they also compared that to i guess kind of on-prem um and they figured that the the growth in the cloud is five times what it is on-prem and again you know i haven't got all those figures in front of me now i don't think that would surprise anyone that the cloud has grown a lot faster you don't know what that base is growing from but again you know i think most people go to the cloud as their default start with kubernetes and if that doesn't work then they'll look at the alternatives um but they then sort of looked at the sizes of hosts and that was something that was a bit more interesting and the reasons why and i think they picked out that a lot of the the cloud-based hosts were smaller and that on-premises clusters were larger and they tried to look or i don't know how much of the the metrics they had or how much they were sort of interpreting slash guessing um but they were trying to sort of figure out why that would be the case and just figured it was largely sort of economical some technical considerations and it's around the fact that in the cloud it'd be very easy to sort of spin up lots of small instances whereas if you're doing the racking and stacking yourself in your data centers you want to spend less time doing it you're far more likely to throw in a few big hosts you've got the whole cost model of whether it's capex or not again for companies who are still taking months to justify a budget you only want to do that
26:47once and just buy a couple of big servers so but it was interesting to see their sort of breakdown and factors like that i guess that you don't often think about how they affect maybe even your technical design how you uh how you manage your architecture and things yeah that is an interesting like uh principle is too strong of word but just like thing to keep in mind with that is that if you're building your own and this doesn't this sounds like it would be bad but it doesn't have to be is you probably always would prefer over capacity right because like it just takes so much effort on your own to like build stuff that you want to kind of go beyond your current day capacity i mean if you think about it from a public cloud providers i don't know if this is true but like i assume when they build new data centers it's over capacity for their current demand because they're building out like you know anticipated demand that they would have and they don't want to build another data center but yeah you you take on that kind of management i mean that that that's i always feel like like that's one of the i always i always feel like this like i'm walking down the street getting emotional and teary-eyed about it uh but you know i i often think that like one of the under talked about and appreciated things of a public cloud is just like not having to think about that stuff do you know i've got a theory i reckon it's this cattle versus pets again you think on prem they still want to name their big server on on prem it's all you know big clusters named after simpsons pit folks what's happening on homer today right whereas in the cloud it's a bit more kind of you know they can they can uh call those cattle and uh and recreate them uh maybe maybe some of it is to do with that i'd also be interested to find out in terms of the growth because you said there was 127 of growth there i'd love to know which industries are sort of fueling
28:54that growth the most i have a sneaking suspicion it's car companies really why they all we've lost koto okay why companies i'm curious well as in you think like you know in terms of we've got our agreement but as in car companies using a lot more tech in them and therefore suddenly wanting to have smart car platforms and things yeah and and if you and i think it was uh cube comp um last year back in the us last year i think uh i think mercedes were there for example talking about just how many clusters they had and it was a huge number and you and they've been running them for you know quite some time and and it's still growing right so and this is supporting all the sort of stuff that they want to do with the vehicles now right so all this um you know connected uh driving experiences if you like yes yeah generating huge amounts of yeah or just that you know just just the increase in things like apps and metrics and gathering data and you know processing that data and having it um available in lots of different uh places so huge numbers of clusters there were being talked about so i wonder which which industries are driving this uh increasing in clusters uh and how that breaks down i'd love to know yeah was there anything in the report about that probably not i don't remember it seeing anything i think that i mean i've seen so many surveys i saw an open source one this week and they did split it down by vertical and then by region but i don't think the dynatrace one did i think it was all sort of too anonymized maybe um i did see actually i've seen in the notes here that it it did show the share of cloud hosted clusters which is interesting um so it increased from 31 to 45 being in the cloud so saying next year there'll be more in the cloud than on-prem whereas if you'd asked me to begin with i would have thought there would have been at least as much in the cloud because okay i get sort of legacy workloads how many of those will have migrated to cloud that
30:55takes a long time but for things like kubernetes which you know in technology terms is newish and has been there you know the cloud's been there all along i would have expected there to be more in the cloud already than on-prem but apparently not we're still only at 45 there's still more on-prem today than there is in the cloud even kubernetes good good grief and was there anything in there about iot and about edge and and you know using kubernetes at the edge was there any any discussion of that uh i didn't see it if there was uh which doesn't mean there wasn't i i sort of scan through i pick out the top headline bits that appeal to me i put a certain amount in the newsletter otherwise the newsletter ends up being 50 million pages long i can go back and have a look um but yeah nothing else i remember they did have a section on programming languages which i tend to skip over a lot of because i'm not really a developer um right so the only big takeaway was kind of java which i i very very briefly dabbled not enough to even spell developer really but you know i dabbled in java at college and wrote a few bits um so i'm still intrigued to see that that was what was it 65 i think um was still java apps uh yeah so it's done very well so still the most popular type of workload and of course a huge number of those will be spring apps on java as well so yeah again huge representation for spring they're bringing us full circle back to the uh top of the show so was there anything else this week that uh caught your bdi as you uh scan your way across the industry papers and uh newswires so the other one i picked up on was uh mirantis has just acquired shipper um and shipper weren't a company i'd sort of seen a lot of i'd seen the name mentioned here and there um so i did a sort of a quick bit of research into who they were what that was about um and no surprises at least for me this sort of feeds into the platform engineering space again um and it's i mean it's the bigger picture right even to spring people they're talking about essentially cognitive overload it's very hard
32:58to keep up with everything we keep hearing that a lot of the burden of kubernetes has gone to developers suddenly they feel like they might need to learn all of that um in order to just deploy their code they now need to learn kubernetes um obviously that's where we will come in with tap and say that helps with these and shippers in that same sort of space so shippers are essentially almost rediscovering another app engine heroku again um how do we do a cf push how do we just take our code click a button and get it into production without worrying about all that kubernetes stuff um and they have their own particular way of sort of defining applications and applying policy and letting you see everything in a portal um but it's you know there's a huge amount of activity in that space i think you know oh there we go we've got michael back there's a lot of another sort of low plumbing method to get your code your application running in the cloud somewhere anything sort of uh special or unique about it is it open source is it something you you can try and you can install locally or install i think there is a trial i don't think it's open source but again i wouldn't swear to it so don't hold me to that one but i don't think it was um and rant is going to be so interesting i guess mirantis said they were going to build into lens and lens does have an open source version um yeah whether it will whether it wasn't open source and would become more so i you know we're speculating at that level but um i guess it's just interesting again you know scaring the news there's a huge amount of noise and it's it could be biased because i'm listening for it about how do we make how do we close this gap kubernetes is great brilliant for ops it's a bit of a pain for developers everyone's trying to close that gap in different types of ways and these sort of acquisitions just make me think that's gaining more and more importance right there's a lot more talk about it but people are putting money behind it in this case mantis saying yep we think that's necessary we need to add that into our portfolio i kind of see that happening all over i don't see it slowing down this year either
34:59well michael welcome back i uh i don't know what happened to my internet i do have a wired connection so now i'm calling into the magic of mobile web browsers i'm sure my audio quality is wacky we've gone for an outside broadcast now yeah i can walk around the house like i'm like i'm in like some some apple pod apple movie uh apple movie tv show but that's probably a good time to wrap up if only because my daughter forgot to take her swimsuit to school so now i have to bring the tour which is always uh that's that's a benefit of having your school be very close but also a drop back i'm not sure i feel your pain the alternative is worse though isn't it i mean you know the things that dad will do uh i was just that that's a good illustration i was just putting in i wrote them in my little newsletter the other day that too much of my life is based on choosing the least worst of of uh two bad options uh so i need i need to re-architect things a little bit to figure that out but speaking of you know if you wanted to have a good option your good option is go to to go to tanzitalk.com and check out the show notes for things we talked about and make sure you subscribe oh we can't lose him twice in one show but once is once is okay twice is yeah so i think what he what michael was saying was go to tanzitalk.com uh you'll find all the shows uh including the show notes and you'll be able to subscribe using your favorite platform whether that's uh spotify or apple or google i think uh i think we've got most of them covered so so uh do check that out and if you're hungry for more then uh maybe uh check out our youtube channel um the vmware tanzi youtube channel or just uh swing by maybe our tech soon and we'll put uh a link to that in the show notes so that you can uh peruse that at your leisure michael welcome back kind of kind of i think he's still not really here
37:02welcome to the still version of michael uh oh it's not normally this quiet