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expender i know i didn't want to be shivering my way through it so i thought i'll put a bit of heat

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on and that way i can relax this is a good hopefully quick opening topic now uh you know

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i come i come from austin texas uh a land of warmth and we don't have this thing we have this

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in in uh in the states in new england and i think in europe you'll have to tell me if if in your

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neck of of of uh the world you have this but we have something called radiators here which are

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these gigantic pieces of metal and i think hot water comes into them and there's like this valve

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on one side and you can like any valve you can it's kind of like it's kind of like the mystery of

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like uh you know you go to a hotel and uh you know they have they have like that that shower knob and

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you just have to resolve the mystery of how do i get the perfect balance of hot and cold water

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and this i feel like when it comes to a radiator this knob it's one knob that you can turn all the

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way off and you can spin it several times to turn it all the way on and i don't have the background

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to really know just the whole concept of that knob like like the more i turn it on does that mean the

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warmer it is or is it a binary thing and then like is each knob different and then what's the theory of

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the radiators like just like because because in the central heating world all you do is you go to the

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thing and you put in of course in fahrenheit like what degree you want and then you walk away and

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it's it's perhaps the simplest device in a household even simpler than a washing machine which usually

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requires two to three button purses just to make the thing go uh but well you've stumbled upon uh you

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know a topic that i know a little bit about so uh these valves are called trvs and they contain

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a sort of a liquid mixture if you like like a like an oil or something and depending on what you set

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that thing to and how warm the room is it will either push a pin in or out to allow water to flow

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into the radiator or out of the radiator so wow that's how it works you turn your knob and you said you

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don't do diy you clear i don't now now wait wait wait i i was i was so amazed at your initial

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explanation that i missed the second part is it actually taking into account the temperature of

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the room what's what's really yes not usually on a regular trv these days it would be filled with a

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sort of an oily mixture and as the room warms up um it will release the it will close the pin and as the

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room cools down it will release the pin okay okay so is the advice that i should just turn it all the

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way on or does that like maximize it like what do i want to do that will give you the most heat

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most of the time so okay you know you should sort of set it to a level where if the room's cold it'll

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come on if the room's kind of okay it'll go off that's fascinating finding the balance is hard but i've

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got these right so okay and and then and then i was gonna come to those oh yeah yeah i was thinking

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maybe we should install but i feel like i'd have to you gotta probably turn off the whole system and

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drain it or something i i don't know this feels like this this pops straight off trvs can be changed any

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by anybody other brands are available okay okay so so then so then the way the whole thing works is i

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have i have a hot water heater somewhere in my house i have one of those fancy ones that's like

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not a gigantic tank i don't i don't i mean that's the old school american thing is you have a tank that's

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like about as tall as me and you hook it up to electric or gas and it just keeps it hot and and like

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so i have one of those new ones that's just like this box hanging on a wall that i guess does it on

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demand and uh so essentially what the radiator system is doing is taking very hot water and putting

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it into these big metal things so that as the hot water cools down i'm no physicist i got a degree in

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philosophy and english but the as as the water cools down the heat goes out of this highly conductive

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this thing called metal and and in theory heats up the whole space right right yeah and now now it

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then flows out of the extremely not good uh double glazing into the atmosphere now that was my next

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at all that was my next question is i feel like a lot of my radiators are right underneath windows

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which seems like a bad idea like it seems like you would want the radiator to be against a solid wall

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towards the center of the house so that it has the maximum so even if because i think i think hot

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stuff wants to go towards cold stuff right or hot and cold want to equalize so if you had the radiator

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on the center part of your house it's and then you've got coldness radiating from the glass you've got

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coldness coming towards the heat and so the coldness is going to like pull the heat towards the middle of

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the room and then also it's going to get the chance for the coldness to kind of like heat up a little bit

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whereas if you have the radiator right next to the window it's just as you were joking it's going to

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just like suck out the glass and uh so it seems i might hazard to use the word stupid to say putting

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a radiator next to a window is not a good idea well having read a bit about that because i had similar

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thoughts um apparently no putting it by the window is exactly where it should be ah perfect

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a kind of a wall of hot air that stops cold air coming in through the window it rises up towards

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the ceiling then goes around the room okay provides almost like curtains on a window provides insulation

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and therefore you actually do want them oh man that's a relief i guess that also explains that

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when you walk into a uh a store you feel this like down draft of hot air like like right next to the

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door maybe yeah same philosophy acts as a barrier oh man that's such a relief to hear well i thought

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maybe just you know uh stream of hot air describes me as a as a podcast co-host so that's good

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phomo dynamics is hard though isn't it it's really it's difficult to get your head around it's like

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what yeah all right okay all set from here to a data data center design now this and then we're back

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15 years in my career just to close that off that might explain why the kitchen is the coldest place

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in our house because it has single pane glass and it has big french doors and the radiator is on the

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opposite wall of the the french doors so maybe uh there you go that might be a problem you need a new

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kitchen it's the only solution you want to maybe put your pcs under the window oh that's my run nvidia

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graphics cards on them also yeah my my bitcoin mining farm and put right over there you'll get your

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bitcoin and a warmer yeah that's right that's right well speaking of warm rooms uh last week we finally

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had our SpringOne online uh conference i think SpringOne essentials as as we called it and it was

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it was uh i believe we're also repeating it for people in the uh the non-western part of the world

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uh is that next week i think it's february at some point february 3rd is it second third yeah and uh

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you know i think uh i it was we had a three-day event last week if you want to go to SpringOne dot io

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i don't think we have the replays there but you can register and probably be notified when there's

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replays yeah they're coming yes yeah and uh i i you know i i have to admit i didn't watch every single

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talk uh however uh i the the the talk i want the the three that i wanted to highlight are are three

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that uh on the first day there's there was a there was a a a good opening from our ceo ragu and i think

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i think what was what was vital there for people who care about this space is just really getting a sense of

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like how application development kind of fits into uh what we here at vmware are up to um and you can

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kind of hear him it's it's you know a three-minute talk so it's not like you're going to have the

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entire world explained to you but you get you get a good indication of like how how all of this fits

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together and then after that uh James Watters had a talk kind of explaining the idea of uh what a golden

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path is which is sort of the theme of of a lot of the conference and kind of a little bit of the

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background and the why of how that came about and then finally uh you know uh uh vp of engineering

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in in tanzu katherine uh gave a talk at the end that i think did a pretty good job of taking that golden

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path thinking and explaining how things like the tanzu application platform kind of fit in and uh and

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satisfy that but it being SpringOne there was also a tremendous amount of commentary uh commentary

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content about spring and java and things like that which which was which is fun to watch what what uh

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what were your highlights been what did you like about the the three days there uh well it we should

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probably mention that we were hosting when we were hosting watch parties so we had the indeed uh thrill

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and pleasure of meeting uh with uh customers and users of spring as well in those locations so while they

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watched with us on the big screen uh the cinema screen if you like uh the uh the majesty of spring as uh as

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was covered by uh by the event and the stuff i saw i saw three i saw um jürgen talking about spring

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framework six and all the sort of improvements that have gone into spring framework six which are

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too many to mention i mean there's just tons of stuff in there uh also um i saw sebastian and

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and friends talking about um spring boot three and uh the native stuff that's now included the graal vm stuff

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and i saw a talk on uh tanzo application platform as well from um uh greg and uh cora was it a few

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other yeah uh they were they were chatting about uh spring um sorry springs use in uh tanzo application

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platform or using spring in tanzo application platform uh so they were really good talks so and

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not like super long or anything i think about 40 minutes each something like that so really consumable

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easy to get your head around um so when the recordings turn up i would definitely recommend

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that folks check those out but more than anything it was just a chance to chat with people from the uh

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from the community and ed you were there as well weren't you we got to spend some time together

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i was we finally got to meet which was great and like i said it actually was lovely i think that's my

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first time going to the those vmware offices anyway um it's my first time back in a vmware office in years

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so just yeah customers meeting other vmware people meeting you that was great which uh which offices

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were you at you're at we were in the uh the old pivotal office oh yeah yeah so old street uh those

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are nice it's nice yeah yeah it's very comfortable and uh the folks there were very warm and welcoming

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we were we felt very at home uh straight away when we uh when we arrived uh right until we got a fire

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alarm that kicked us out at the end we did get thrown out by a fire alarm right at the end of the

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event so the end of the event was kind of curtailed somewhat by oh that's a bummer for a fire alarm that

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went off but um someone went home happy with uh with a huge lego kit that beautiful lego kit of uh

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i think there's a formula one and mclaren oh yes one you know because of our tire with mclaren

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that's what we gave away at the uh that the amsterdam uh watching party yeah yeah how was it

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it was nice we we actually uh watched the second day uh which which was interesting so i i uh i did a

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a selection i replayed that uh the the that video from ragu and the one from uh James Watters and we

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had some discussion about it and then we watched uh that one you mentioned uh about cora i'm not about

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her that would be fun if there was a a presentation just about her but uh that that had her in it and

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yeah i mean i think i think that talk was a great like it was a good uh demonstration of like

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what what our deal is here like what we're going for and like what the the the vision you will that

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we're trying to do with the tonsu application platform and i think you know that's one of

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that that kind of touches on one of the things i'm always going on about is like

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so if i were to like say what type of developer do you want me to be what would that explanation be

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right and you know the first rung to that thing is always like oh it's a developer for everyone and

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we don't and i'm like no no no you you can't that that's cheating right like in the same way that

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like it you know back back in my day you would say like i'm a j2e developer it's like i want that kind

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of label right and and if someone says they're like a java enterprise uh developer you can make about

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assumptions about 70 of how they work the tools they use the architectures they follow like it's all

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there and i think like that's what i'm interested in our whole cloud native space evolving is just like

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you know we need to come up with what style of development is cloud native is way too broad and

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there's too many options like when we were in our green room talking earlier i was i was uh recalling

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that every time i read uh ed's weekly news wrap-up of stuff i'm like boy our industry needs to calm down

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we have too many options like just like all over the place but anyhow i think you can get you can start

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to get a sense of like what a tonsu developer is from uh watching that that that video there which

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was nice also the london offices are great because i think it uh it contains uh you know this part of

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the world's only operational ice machine as far as i can tell that it just has and i think it has two of

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them and you can just go there they still i think there's even pint glasses so you could get a pint

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glass and just fill it full of ice and uh have a unique experience uh for for europe and the uk

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ice check into it that's one of my hobby horses obviously well how about uh uh we also had the state

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of spring come out uh which which i i have to admit i've only given like a cursory look i need to sit

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down you know usually i do uh i get lucky that i get asked to do some analysis of our state of

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kubernetes and and other ones but i haven't like spent the time to really sit down and and look at

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what's going on in there but what uh i know you have been and if not you can pretend like you have

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what what do you uh what do you see in there that's interesting oh you know me i love a survey oh surveys

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are brilliant yeah so many charts demographics yeah pretty graphics all that uh yeah infographics

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as well i'm a sucker oh yeah and they all agree it's brilliant i love a survey and this one's no

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different so this year's state of spring uh survey it was actually from 22 but it was released uh to

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coincide with the uh spring event so um you can go and check it out there's a there'll be a link in

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the show notes but yeah there's tons of stats in there some really interesting stuff so um 55 of

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the 1400 or so respondents are now reporting that they use mostly modern architectures with 93 of

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those folks saying it's microservices that they've chosen as their modern architecture so huge numbers

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of folks now using uh microservices which is uh really good to see you know it's over the past few

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years it's been growing and it continues to grow so that's fantastic um big upswing in some uh adjacent

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technologies as well so uh folks using kubernetes more uh with springs folks using uh spring in

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production uh kubernetes environments both on public cloud and on-prem as well so you know there's some

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numbers in there about that you should check it out uh also open api and um graphql are both um seeing

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upswing this year and api is now the top use case for spring so most people uh the majority the largest

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number of folks are using spring for things like api so apis rest api is very very very popular and

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projects adjacent to that like open api documentation for api um interfaces is also growing now let me ask

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you something about that because i i i i looked over that and i was thinking it probably is the case

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that you could choose multiple things you're using spring for right and and and like if there's a rise in

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microservices like it means that people are using spring to make apis for whatever other application

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they're making and and so i guess what i'm driving at is like it's what you should i i think what you

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should think is that like if you exclude a using spring to make apis then you get a different picture

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of like the types of applications people are using because it seems like if 93 of people who responded are

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using microservices then pretty much all of them are making apis right and so like it put another way

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it's not the case it's probably not the case that most people that the only thing they're making are apis

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right like they're also making other things other types of applications which you know it's fine to

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get a full representation but it makes me think that like the other analysis you need to do is like

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excluding apis and like middleware stuff that you all use like what are the types of applications

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use like you know analogously in one of our uh open source surveys like uh when you ask people what

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types of open source they use by far away the number one type of open source they use is operating systems

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linux and so you kind of have to be like well yes but you know everyone uses that so you've got to throw

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that out and like look at the rest but i don't know that's my theory not to dismiss again using

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it for apis but that like it's it's something that that everyone is doing so it is the number one use

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case yeah exactly and it's important to say that that 93 is of the 55 who said they were on modern

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architecture so there's the other 45 who aren't who are probably doing all sorts of other things you know

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timely for making um websites and web uis and uh building uh you know web applications uh front ends

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and stuff there'll be front ends in other things you know front ends in angular or uh uh other um

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stuff like express or whatever so so there's there's always going to be a huge variety and i think um

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spring does very well there because it has such a comprehensive set of modules that

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you you'll always whatever your interest you'll always be able to find something that will allow

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you to build it in spring and i think that's part of the reason why it still remains popular you know

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spring doesn't do the sort of one trick pony thing it's a very um flexible uh framework so yeah

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so that's good other news from that particular survey uh stuff that i liked more than half said they're

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going to rely more on spring so it's so it's gaining traction still even though it's a what 20 20 20 to

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25 year old framework you know it's still going really really strong and people are still um you

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know double downing on uh using that particular framework so that's good um 30 say they plan to

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use growl vm for faster startup times and uh for smaller app footprints now growl vm is only a few years

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old so that's it's showing incredible pace at being understood by everyone and also folks are starting

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to think about how they could use it and some are even using it um in more uh detail and more um

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places as well so yeah there's some really good stuff in there but here's one i wanted to just

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quickly cover right a lot of folks also saying that the learning curve is getting more difficult now

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that's not a reflection of the learning curve of spring per se i think it's a reflection of the

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fact that everybody now has developer relations folks and they're all putting out tons of content and

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the content is everywhere so folks are now struggling to find the time to build together the sort of

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learning path that they need in order to pick stuff up uh so there's a there is a part of the survey that

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talks about the the learning curve getting steeper and what can be done about that and the good news

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is that the folks seem to really like the um documentation from spring they find that really

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really useful and i think i do as well i i read it regularly and i think it is some of the best

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documentation that's out there for any framework i would say so they really like that but also we've

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added um spring academy something that we launched at SpringOne essentials where folks can sign up and

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go and take learning courses at their own pace in their own homes in their own office working environments

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wherever they might be they can sign up for courses and start to learn spring from the folks who make it

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from the the spring team themselves so um there there are new ways coming online that allow folks

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to um get into spring and and start to understand it more and then and then there's always your videos

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you're good at that i think i think between the spring documentation the spring academy and bin

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you have all you need to know about the spring world and occasional python and other things like that

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that's good we we need we need to have uh the daily bin where you have a little little video hey

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there's an idea yeah uh-huh yeah i i'm pretty sure my wife would disagree that this is a requirement

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well you can you can do like the mr ben you know you go in you come out in a different costume

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every day and you do a little short about spring it'd be brilliant

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yeah put my boiler hats on yeah yeah that would be great well uh and and then we have you know uh

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we we have like so many other talks uh that we'll be releasing we we have a i don't know what would

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you call it been a follow-on conference stream like i i forget the exact date but uh like SpringOne

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will be at uh vmware explorer uh this year in august and between now and then every tuesday and thursday

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uh we'll have uh us what would what would be a uh basically a SpringOne talk so the it's it's kind

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of like the endless summer except it's winter fall and then summer uh going into uh will it be fall i

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guess so i don't i forget when fall begins i'm not i'm not a druid so i don't know uh and but

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you'll you'll every every uh twice a week you'll get to see some other talks i don't know about about

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y'all but i have a talk coming up on my application modernization stuff i think in may at some point

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i don't know that's so far in the future but uh it's great all that stuff is free and uh you can

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tune into it uh you can see it streaming uh here where you're watching this now uh but if you go to

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SpringOne.io you can you can check that out yeah what i liked is that as the weeks go on so it's

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every tuesday and thursday all the way up through to august the heat is rising in the northern hemisphere

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the whole time it's just getting hotter and hotter every week until like may it's already starting so

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you know the the big thick jumpers are coming off ed uh we'll be able to get rid of those we'll be able to

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turn the heating down with your your tv ms or whatever tvrs what what are they the trvs yeah

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trvs down uh you'll be able to just glow bask in the glory of the of the golden path to SpringOne

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spring and spring yeah that that would be nice well well speaking of surveys the other thing that i

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wanted to to to go over and ed you've done some some good analysis of this is dynatrace came out i don't

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know you'll have to tell me is this like a one time or an ongoing thing but they came came out with

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their uh they don't call it state of spring but like what's going on in the spring world and uh their

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methodology right i guess i don't know if you would call this a survey but dynatrace being dynatrace uh

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kind of like the other ones like datadog and new relic they can kind of look over anonymized um

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the stuff that they monitor and manage i assume it's anonymized i didn't see any names in the pdf

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like you know the u.s agriculture department runs this many clusters that would be fun uh but uh

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like it it was a pretty good i think a a pretty good uh analysis of like what's going on in their

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user base uh with kubernetes and it looks like from what they said they analyzed 4.1 billion kubernetes

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pods which seems like a lot from thousands of customers globally but what uh what are some of

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the highlights that stood out to you ed what what did you like in there so i like the fact as you like

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you said they're a big provider right and they get to see an awful lot of workloads come and go so it's

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a decent size um a lot of the surveys come out and we asked 20 people and you're like right don't care

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about that this one at least was global covered a load of stuff you know which is good um they picked

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up on a couple of interesting things and had some analysis i wouldn't have thought to do as well

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um so they picked up annual growth rate of 127 um and that's for the number of kubernetes clusters

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hosted in the cloud and then they also compared that to i guess kind of on-prem um and they figured

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that the the growth in the cloud is five times what it is on-prem and again you know i haven't got all

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those figures in front of me now i don't think that would surprise anyone that the cloud has grown a

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lot faster you don't know what that base is growing from but again you know i think most people go to

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the cloud as their default start with kubernetes and if that doesn't work then they'll look at the

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alternatives um but they then sort of looked at the sizes of hosts and that was something that was

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a bit more interesting and the reasons why and i think they picked out that a lot of the the cloud-based

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hosts were smaller and that on-premises clusters were larger and they tried to look or i don't know

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how much of the the metrics they had or how much they were sort of interpreting slash guessing um

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but they were trying to sort of figure out why that would be the case and just figured it was

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largely sort of economical some technical considerations and it's around the fact that

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in the cloud it'd be very easy to sort of spin up lots of small instances whereas if you're doing

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the racking and stacking yourself in your data centers you want to spend less time doing it

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you're far more likely to throw in a few big hosts you've got the whole cost model of whether it's

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capex or not again for companies who are still taking months to justify a budget you only want to do that

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once and just buy a couple of big servers so but it was interesting to see their sort of breakdown and

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factors like that i guess that you don't often think about how they affect maybe even your technical

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design how you uh how you manage your architecture and things yeah that is an interesting like

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uh principle is too strong of word but just like thing to keep in mind with that is that

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if you're building your own and this doesn't this sounds like it would be bad but it doesn't have to

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be is you probably always would prefer over capacity right because like it just takes so much effort

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on your own to like build stuff that you want to kind of go beyond your current day capacity

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i mean if you think about it from a public cloud providers i don't know if this is true but like

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i assume when they build new data centers it's over capacity for their current demand because they're

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building out like you know anticipated demand that they would have and they don't want to build another

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data center but yeah you you take on that kind of management i mean that that that's i always feel like

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like that's one of the i always i always feel like this like i'm walking down the street getting

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emotional and teary-eyed about it uh but you know i i often think that like one of the under talked

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about and appreciated things of a public cloud is just like not having to think about that stuff

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do you know i've got a theory i reckon it's this cattle versus pets again

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you think on prem they still want to name their big server on on prem it's all you know big clusters

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named after simpsons pit folks what's happening on homer today right whereas in the cloud

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it's a bit more kind of you know they can they can uh call those cattle and uh and recreate them uh

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maybe maybe some of it is to do with that i'd also be interested to find out in terms of the growth

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because you said there was 127 of growth there i'd love to know which industries are sort of fueling

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that growth the most i have a sneaking suspicion it's car companies really why they all we've lost koto

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okay why companies i'm curious well as in you think like you know in terms of we've got our agreement

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but as in car companies using a lot more tech in them and therefore suddenly wanting to have smart

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car platforms and things yeah and and if you and i think it was uh cube comp um last year back in the

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us last year i think uh i think mercedes were there for example talking about just how many clusters they

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had and it was a huge number and you and they've been running them for you know quite some time and and

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it's still growing right so and this is supporting all the sort of stuff that they want to do with

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the vehicles now right so all this um you know connected uh driving experiences if you like yes

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yeah generating huge amounts of yeah or just that you know just just the increase in things like apps

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and metrics and gathering data and you know processing that data and having it um available in lots of

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different uh places so huge numbers of clusters there were being talked about so i wonder which

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which industries are driving this uh increasing in clusters uh and how that breaks down i'd love to

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know yeah was there anything in the report about that probably not i don't remember it seeing anything i

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think that i mean i've seen so many surveys i saw an open source one this week and they did split it

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down by vertical and then by region but i don't think the dynatrace one did i think it was all sort of

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too anonymized maybe um i did see actually i've seen in the notes here that it it did show the share of

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cloud hosted clusters which is interesting um so it increased from 31 to 45 being in the cloud

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so saying next year there'll be more in the cloud than on-prem whereas if you'd asked me

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to begin with i would have thought there would have been at least as much in the cloud

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because okay i get sort of legacy workloads how many of those will have migrated to cloud that

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takes a long time but for things like kubernetes which you know in technology terms is newish and has

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been there you know the cloud's been there all along i would have expected there to be more in the cloud

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already than on-prem but apparently not we're still only at 45 there's still more on-prem today than

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there is in the cloud even kubernetes good good grief and was there anything in there about iot

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and about edge and and you know using kubernetes at the edge was there any any discussion of that

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uh i didn't see it if there was uh which doesn't mean there wasn't i i sort of scan through i pick

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out the top headline bits that appeal to me i put a certain amount in the newsletter otherwise the

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newsletter ends up being 50 million pages long i can go back and have a look um but yeah nothing else i

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remember they did have a section on programming languages which i tend to skip over a lot of

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because i'm not really a developer um right so the only big takeaway was kind of java which i i very

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very briefly dabbled not enough to even spell developer really but you know i dabbled in java

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at college and wrote a few bits um so i'm still intrigued to see that that was what was it 65 i think

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um was still java apps uh yeah so it's done very well so still the most popular type of workload and

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of course a huge number of those will be spring apps on java as well so yeah again huge representation

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for spring they're bringing us full circle back to the uh top of the show so was there anything else

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this week that uh caught your bdi as you uh scan your way across the industry papers and uh newswires

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so the other one i picked up on was uh mirantis has just acquired shipper um and shipper weren't a

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company i'd sort of seen a lot of i'd seen the name mentioned here and there um so i did a sort

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of a quick bit of research into who they were what that was about um and no surprises at least for me

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this sort of feeds into the platform engineering space again um and it's i mean it's the bigger

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picture right even to spring people they're talking about essentially cognitive overload it's very hard

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to keep up with everything we keep hearing that a lot of the burden of kubernetes has gone to

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developers suddenly they feel like they might need to learn all of that um in order to just deploy

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their code they now need to learn kubernetes um obviously that's where we will come in with tap and

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say that helps with these and shippers in that same sort of space so shippers are essentially almost

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rediscovering another app engine heroku again um how do we do a cf push how do we just take our code

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click a button and get it into production without worrying about all that kubernetes stuff um and they

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have their own particular way of sort of defining applications and applying policy and letting you see

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everything in a portal um but it's you know there's a huge amount of activity in that space i think you

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know oh there we go we've got michael back there's a lot of another sort of low plumbing method to get

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your code your application running in the cloud somewhere anything sort of uh special or unique

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about it is it open source is it something you you can try and you can install locally or install

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i think there is a trial i don't think it's open source but again i wouldn't swear to it so don't

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hold me to that one but i don't think it was um and rant is going to be so interesting i guess

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mirantis said they were going to build into lens and lens does have an open source version um yeah

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whether it will whether it wasn't open source and would become more so i you know we're speculating

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at that level but um i guess it's just interesting again you know scaring the news there's a huge

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amount of noise and it's it could be biased because i'm listening for it about how do we make how do we

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close this gap kubernetes is great brilliant for ops it's a bit of a pain for developers everyone's

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trying to close that gap in different types of ways and these sort of acquisitions just make me think

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that's gaining more and more importance right there's a lot more talk about it but people are putting

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money behind it in this case mantis saying yep we think that's necessary we need to add that into

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our portfolio i kind of see that happening all over i don't see it slowing down this year either

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well michael welcome back i uh i don't know what happened to my internet i do have a wired connection

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so now i'm calling into the magic of mobile web browsers i'm sure my audio quality is wacky

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we've gone for an outside broadcast now yeah i can walk around the house like i'm like i'm in like

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some some apple pod apple movie uh apple movie tv show but that's probably a good time to wrap up if

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only because my daughter forgot to take her swimsuit to school so now i have to bring the tour which is

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always uh that's that's a benefit of having your school be very close but also a drop back i'm not

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sure i feel your pain the alternative is worse though isn't it i mean you know the things that

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dad will do uh i was just that that's a good illustration i was just putting in i wrote them

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in my little newsletter the other day that too much of my life is based on choosing the least worst of

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of uh two bad options uh so i need i need to re-architect things a little bit to figure that out but

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speaking of you know if you wanted to have a good option your good option is go to to go to

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tanzitalk.com and check out the show notes for things we talked about and make sure you subscribe

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oh we can't lose him twice in one show but once is once is okay twice is yeah so i think what he

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what michael was saying was go to tanzitalk.com uh you'll find all the shows uh including the show

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notes and you'll be able to subscribe using your favorite platform whether that's uh spotify or apple

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or google i think uh i think we've got most of them covered so so uh do check that out and if you're

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hungry for more then uh maybe uh check out our youtube channel um the vmware tanzi youtube channel

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or just uh swing by maybe our tech soon and we'll put uh a link to that in the show notes so that you

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can uh peruse that at your leisure michael welcome back kind of kind of i think he's still not really here

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welcome to the still version of michael uh oh it's not normally this quiet