so michael i'm dying to know what happened with the whole going to buy glasses thing did you get some i did now did i go over that we went to a uh the eye store we went to is it was it was great uh commerce in this day and age we went to the the nice mall here uh down by the arena uh and uh there are two glasses stores literally next door to each other right and so like the way i selected them was based on the uh how do you say placard based on the placard that seemed to have the best deal that week and uh you know i think i think that's kind of like i mean you you do a lot of this kind of work ed i'm sure it can feel like sometimes competitive stuff even for the most complicated software is basically that it's just like who's got the coolest sign outside their kubernetes cluster you know yeah i like the colors on that one well exactly so that uh my wife and i i went in and they had a deal where if you you get two what was it you could get three glasses for the price of the most expensive one you know whatever that deal is three glasses for the pair of four for the price of four and and and then the you know this is another thing i was thinking about you ed there was some complicated pricing spreadsheet where if you only wanted to get one extra pair of glasses you could redeem a voucher that you could give to someone which should give them like 50 off their second pair of glasses i i don't know it was crazy and then i could go on about that that was that was actually now that i'm reliving it in my head a great example of software eating the world but doing a bad job at it um anyway sounds like it sounds like a pyramid scheme for glasses well i mean since since uh there's a little bit of interest that the the guy doing he was this great guy i i enjoyed uh his company a lot but the way to redeem this voucher was he had to like send an email on my behalf and then that emailed him back like you know the 64 letter code of a voucher then he had to copy and paste that into his ordering system so that he could do the ordering
2:01for me right and it was just like man i can just imagine there were like three to four different teams who didn't want to have a meeting seven months ago and they were just like i got it what if we just fire off an email and they can redeem that and then their product manager was like solved let's go get lunch uh and and that's that's that's how computers happen uh and computering and software seems to happen in the real world but so i got i got i got i got glasses here you go you can give me a review let's take a look oh look at that very yeah this is these are this is our uh ray bands called uh mr burbank i guess that's a reference to california i'm assuming there's probably a burbank over there and uh the uk nice so i think it's almost great minds think like i've just got our new set of glasses which look remarkably like yours i would say oh yes apart from maybe thinner rimmed and not branded sadly oh yeah standard because i figured i wouldn't really wear them when i work at home nobody's going to see me apart from now people on this podcast yeah and and then i got a second pair you see the sunglasses there you go oh the sunglasses but and it's the same i uh the one that i wanted didn't exist and so i had the brilliant speaking of brilliant programmer insights i was like well why don't i just get the same frames and then i can go to lunch i don't have to think about this anymore and so uh there we are so now i think i think my setup here is just at the range where i can still see so i don't wear these uh at my desk but boy i know i i i guess you two have glasses so you know this but the um the world is basically like in 4k i was thinking it was like a a four by three aspect ratio like maybe i don't know if it was in in tsc or pal but i i was sorely uh mistaken for many years perhaps a decade or more yeah you think the world's all like hd and then all of a sudden oh my word yeah i'm in the same boat as ed though i i also need as i use these so much now i need like second pair because it's
4:04inevitable i'm going to lose them or break them or do something ah yes so i've done the same as ed and gone down to local opticians you know and getting like a basic pair they're so basic they've been waiting at the opticians for like three weeks i i guess i guess i guess the only downside is that i've realized that well maybe this is good good uh therapy for me is i realized that i'm not the only human in existence whose face kind of looks like uh you know a better part of the moon everyone else has kind of character and stuff going on with their their face and skin which is which is uh nice i thought you meant the the the coloring because this is this is kind of yeah this is moony i would say uh-huh stare at the moon you know you get the different shades of gray i was i was you know we gray and the glasses we we've been working on some uh some keynote scripting for for a conference you and i've been and i went back and watched again your uh your your keynoting of the SpringOne 2020 uh video no no that it was it was and and we talked about this previously and you pointed out several things and going back to look at it and it is it i think having the green screen where they they cut out you and um brian right and uh yeah it looks it was it was i don't i i think i kind of like it is very i don't know i i think i think i enjoyed the aesthetic and and what i enjoy about the aesthetic is that it's an accidental aesthetic that someone came up with but it's definitely there if you look for it so i think i think it's good it's awful i hate it i look back at it and i go oh man because that i know that that was sprung like right at the last second like all this big box arrived with all the gear in it you know recording equipment and lights and green screen and all that sort of stuff and then i'll put it all up and then the day of the conference it's like right you're going to look like this and there was no choice it's like oh okay i look like the whitest guy alive for the whole
6:08thing i don't know what was going on with the white balance but you're a proper brit that's all it means i've never seen sunlight uh yeah there was no conservatory to uh or a solarium did i get that right solarium then uh you know you could hang out there well speaking of all the recording gear we've got a we got a a a a little bit of a backlog of news to go through we've gone through and selected some things that i think well i'll tell you the filter i use fun to talk about uh but hopefully relevant as well so uh well first of all we had uh vmware explore uh last week were you were you at that ed if so i wasn't no no i used to go to the vm world all the time before i joined vmware and then i've gone quite rarely ever since uh well you know we have so many internal emails about what's happening that you can just get the summary of it uh through through there which which is always good stuff but i thought you know i don't want to go go over all the the the world of vm where explore world uh and everything but at least uh our our friend uh our co-worker cindy wrote up a a summary of the tanzu related things and i you know we'll put a link to it in the show notes so you can go look at it uh at tanzu talk.com but you know just to give uh just to give a quick rundown it's a rare instance where i have actually read and prepared so i can give the summary of it uh the we have our tanzu kubernetes grid which you know i more or less think of as our kubernetes distro plus a bunch of extra stuff on it uh and there there's there's some management support that was added in uh for uh various ways of doing cluster stuff but also now it has support for uh running on oracle cloud which as we'll get to if we get to the uh the new gartner magic quadrant uh we'll have to maybe we can look at the magic quadrant and circle all of the uh the the clouds that the tanzu kubernetes grid runs on and then also there's uh i don't i don't think it's quite out yet but the tanzu mission control is going to be made uh air gap which is to say you don't need the internet to use it which um there
8:11are many people who are into that kind of thing oh tons yeah and and it it proves like we should name this rule but maybe there's like you know the the software defined talk podcast rule of uh sas startups which is eventually you're going to be on premise so why not just do it from the start like this is what uh what always happens and then uh there were the tonsu service mesh which is perhaps one of the more descriptive products uh out there uh it looks like what it's added in is some uh or it's it was some roadmap discussion that they had things that were working on and coming and there'll be some nice auto discovery of uh of your kubernetes and your vm based things but then also it'll be fun to see how this pans out uh i i obviously didn't read the details but it looks like they're working on um i would say storing the configuration and policy you know in get somewhere so you can do get ops style stuff which uh usually aids in um not only automating things better but also uh trying to automate compliance and governance and security stuff and then finally uh back at the us one there was the announcement of the uh the aria graph thing which was basically a way as far as i understand it to discover your network topology and start doing some cmdb ish stuff and there's a there's a freemium version of that that you can use and i think only works on aws and azure but that would be fun as a former person who read a bunch of itell books see see how uh see how that type of stuff is doing i used to get very excited is it oh yeah yeah i'm quite yeah but yeah your phrase of configuration management database brought back all those maybe it's a bit like single pane of glass isn't it everything will be there no it won't yeah yeah and uh and it you know i always i always took a lot of delight in uh doing snmp walks of my printers and home network and so it'd be fun to see how that that works out we were talking fun none of that is fun well this is back when i was a programmer so my definition of fun was
10:12a lot different and uh there's also uh you know if you want to go check out cindy's uh post you can see there's some updates to um uh the the bit nominee product we have which is the um the the tanzu marketplace or market uh if i recall the actual new name of it and also there's some sovereign cloud support which was a broader vmware explore topic uh just some uh some work with partners that we we have across vmware to run in your uh your regions instead of not running in your regions if if you're in if you're interested in sovereign cloud stuff do so so when when y'all when y'all hear the word sovereign cloud do you think of the monarchy because isn't that more of the uh the synonym for sovereign over there in the uk it's a specific person used to be i think yeah but we've had so many years of politicking about sovereignty and taking back control oh that's true yeah the word has been i want a cloud in my back garden please that's right the word has been reclaimed for how the rest of the world uses it well that's too bad anyhow uh so yeah did y'all did y'all uh you were at vmware explore ben how how was the other the unpublished part of the show being there it was amazing it was really really good um you know i wasn't sure what to expect my first uh vmware uh event so i wasn't quite sure what to expect but i was blown away by the quality of the conversations that we had um i did booth duty for for the whole uh sort of three days um did did many many hours on the booth and spoke to a ton of people and the level of interest was fantastic it was really really good so yeah you really get that at a booth you you get to see everyone while you're uh hanging out at the booth there we've lost them he's gone you've only lost my video i think yeah yeah i'll try and get that back while you're while you're talking but yeah it was uh it was incredible yeah it was really
12:16good and it was nice to see you as well i saw you there i even saw you around a table with some food on it loads of tapas yeah if i recall um tapas obviously basically every night uh seemed to be how it worked uh so we became very familiar with tapas menus uh as i'm sure uh you did as well and um it was nice to hang out yeah and spend some time with folks that we've not seen for such a long time so it was a it was also a really good uh sort of networking opportunity i think yeah it was nice get some meals with with people and uh other stuff now i didn't do an extensive i used to do these videos way back when during south by southwest where we would uh go around and find the best uh swag uh and do some reviews so i didn't get to do that tour however uh i i think there's only one type that i saw which i'm going to crown the best and that was at the lenovo booth there was a beer tap and uh it was it was one of those tiny like those tiny like uh south european beer cups that you get have you ever noted do we talk about this before where the further south you go the tinier the beer glasses get i think i think there's something uh something to that uh i mean they always have the large ones but the kind of like default is uh to give you that that little is this because really the further south you get you should be drinking wine yeah i think that's probably also related it's like a disincentive like you can have a thingle full of beer or you can have like a jug of wine or sangria or something yeah there's probably probably some people of port or something worse uh there's probably some some uh would it be a longitude there's probably some latitude or longitude whichever one is horizontal or some river and that's considered the beer wine divide i don't yeah somewhere somewhere probably sort of mid france isn't it maybe switzerland that kind of line uh germany you know bottom of germany something like that but uh the sangria as well oh good lord sangria was good yep yeah well anyways the lenovo booth
14:16had a beer tap so that was uh i think that was all you had to do is get your badge scanned and that kind of like conference badge scanning transaction is great where you just walk up and they give you a beer and they're like how's it going can i see your badge and then you're just like you know the people the marketing people back at uh back at headquarters are like wow great job look at all these leads works out well uh well also uh let's see in in the meantime uh outside of the vmware explore area uh i thought you know i was looking through uh your your collection of of of news ed and it looks like there is further uh you know stuff in the platform engineering backstage area red hat i think back at kubcon they announced that they're they're kind of like in on backstage joining that project and working on it and uh you know i think a few episodes ago i talked with uh talked with a few people uh at the front side which if you're listening to this in order you must have heard but if not you can go back in the archives and listen to it and uh i think also a significant milestone in the platform engineering think uh we it is passed through the previous way of thinking is dead uh news cycle which is good usually how that ends if you want to declare the your your predecessors dead is some of your predecessors show up and they're like uh it's kind of unfortunate that you're saying i was dead and that makes me feel bad and all the people put this energy into there and then the previous declare of the previous regime is dead it's like oh sorry about that and then everyone's friends and and we move on but uh have you seen any other interesting uh backstage or platform engineering stuff since last we talked ed um probably because there is a non-stop set of it um and i keep following down the rabbit hole if you find a good blog so you follow some links you find another good blog you find some more impact and particularly with that developer platform piece it means an awful lot of things to an awful lot of people so there's a quite big variety of things to link but the one i
16:16saw was around the working group stuff actually they did a wrap-up of sort of kubecon um and trying to i guess come up with some definitions of what and you know this being more generic cncf what should be in a developer platform um generic components and getting together lots of vendors things so it's kind of i like those mental frameworks i want to kind of read something and see does this one fit does that one fit um we can i'll send you the link we can put that in the show notes as well um but it was an interesting take i guess because otherwise a lot of them are a developer platform is what we are selling whereas this is this is we're trying to come up with what is everybody doing and how would they all fit some kind of taxonomy here's our thoughts and they've got an open dock at the minute anyone can go and contribute to and they're kind of working on first draft of coming up with some kind of report by the end of the year um so given that we've had tons of blog posts and conversations that seems like a nice place where it's all coalescing a little and you know there's another piece i wanted to ask you about i'm remembering now which is there was some post in the new stack i think that you highlighted that was going over like what cloud native is and uh i remember reading through it and to your point thinking like i think the cncf has a definition from like four or five years ago and so like we should just go with that and uh but i don't know there were like three or four i'll have to find that and dig it up but it's it was they're doing a glossary aren't they that was probably the one they're trying to come up with a glossary i guess to try and reclaim a few terms or at least stop everyone saying it means what i want it to mean yeah it's a bit like the definition of cloud forever ago who was it was it somebody did a definition of cloud back in the day in the three different dimensions and then that got debated for 15 years but it didn't change anything yeah and there was i'm sure i've made this joke before but then everyone forgets the fourth cloud the uh the community cloud i i think it was it was there somewhere but it just uh it got lost it went down it went to its own community and then it's not seen from again which ironically i guess was the intention of the community cloud uh yeah i think i think so maybe that's uh i'm that's the
18:20other thing i wanted to note is that i think i think i'm warming up to this term developer experience which i know for us was a big word over the past 12 18 months but i always felt like it was a little weird but i was i was talking with a friend recently and they said this kind of work that they do with other organizations they always he called them the uh the dx team and so i don't know if if if someone else is saying the dx team and that's what people call themselves maybe i should start saying develop possibly only citron doing that uh maybe they still have a dx team somewhere that keeps on the road i think it's okay to be a connoisseur of classics there is i don't i don't know which which citron it is but there's a a really nice like 80s vintage one in the neighborhood here somewhere i think there's someone in my neighborhood who's into old cars because there is there's like a late 70s like you know ford f-150 pickup truck that i see a lot then there's that citron that i see a lot and then there's also i've seen this recently there is like the stereotypical 80s camaro that that they drive around sometimes and it's i don't i don't know i need to find out i should leave a note and be like could we get lunch and i'm i think the jersey equivalent of that is that there is a i don't know sort of a vintage tractor association and it's a small island right and i think twice a year they all go out and they just sort of drive around the island and they're great they're the really old slow tractors i guess within reason no cab or anything else you know just driver sat on top of it with a wheel and when you see one they are kind of cool looking and then you get like 30 of them in a row winding around these little lanes it's not you know race cars or anything else but there is something quite cool about these old tractors without the massive wheels off two tiny front wheels no cabin or anything yeah we have the same thing here at uh it's like the old massy fergusons and that sort of thing and also they do it in steam they go back
20:23and bring out the steam tractors and do whole kind of shows and stuff it's amazing really good really really really beautiful machines really cool but i like them yeah it's totally impractical and then and then you can have the the two-hour event how we used to make uh a board uh which i'm sure was exciting you mean like a cpu board like uh exactly in silicon valley that's a printed circuit board from from uh from uh from lumber to printed circuit boards uh a short history of boards well as as just a brief mention you know uh they're also i think the uh the gartner magic quadrant for what what do they call it ed cloud infrastructure or something yeah i think it's cloud ios and paz isn't it i can't yeah that's that's that's what i rewrote the title they've published another magic quadrant and all the big clouds alike and we're all there at the top yeah is anyone's prize not really yeah i wonder how long before they stop doing that one well there there's there you know i think all of the people in the in positions they like you can go to their websites for free and download it i think i'll put a link to the one uh at google uh that you can get but yes to your point it you do look at it and it's one of the uh the more you know it looks like winter came early because there's a lot of snow in that magic quadrant just a lot of white space i don't know if that joke worked but you know i thought i'd try it out but i you know it looks like a map of antarctica on a small scale there you go but they they tell you you're not supposed to rank things based off the quadrant however i went and ranked them i eyeballed the ranking as if if you drew uh you know a line from the bottom left to the right where the positions that it would fall and it looks like it looks like you got aws azure google alibaba oracle ibm tencent and huawei uh at the end so that's that's what you got going on there uh but you know you can check that
22:24out i didn't actually read the analysis i just looked at the chart uh to see what was going on there and then you know i think i think uh we should probably there's all sorts of crazy stuff going on in the community with respect to where lots of conversation has happened over the past 15 however many years and that is the the the the the thrilling joy ride going on over there at twitter now now whenever it comes to discussing this obviously since there's so many like layoffs and weird pathological situations like uh that's that's no good from a human perspective uh but then it also is uh you know not to say that aside but with that acknowledged uh there is plenty it's it's uh it's a rare example because it's so public of seeing a bunch of uh digital transformation and devopsy and cloud native stuff put to the test in a negative way like do we actually need these things uh but what uh you know what what have you been paying attention to there ben well it's like chaos monkey personified isn't it i mean it's like let's just go and pull pull out various plugs and things and see what happens as basically chaos engineering but uh but but top down i don't know it's a it's a tire fire it it's absolutely awful i feel really bad for the uh for the engineers in in that particular uh business right now i tweeted about this as well i've seen it before it's so boring it's like totally predictable um i've seen it before you know new person comes in creates a crisis says they're the only person who can fix it because they're a genius then they can't fix the crisis then it's everybody else's fault then they leave and everybody's left to sort of pick up the pieces it's we've seen it hundreds of times before this is nothing new there is no genius here it's just
24:24a race to the bottom you know uh and then whatever's left do you even want to be a part of it i'm questioning whether i'm going to use twitter anymore i'm sort of like i'm bored of it i'm over it i wonder if it's time to move on and i'm sure there's a lot of other folks feel that way and um yeah i think there's a there's a lack of empathy for for for you know what what it's like to do engineering on this sort of scale i don't think any of the other businesses really have the same problems so trying to apply the same methods to fix it probably won't work it does feel a bit is it chesterton's fence i think it is you might remember this you know that that the idea that you walk up somewhere there's a fence in the middle of a road where it shouldn't be and you're like well why what's that doing there take that out and they're like no actually figure out why someone put it there in the first place it might be there for a reason and it is that tendency like you said to just come in and go well this is silly isn't it we should obviously have people playing for a blue tick mark put that in oh you didn't put it in because it doesn't work okay take it back out then all right that was did you see all the false tweets and stuff false brands and things like oh my word you know in some ways it's sort of reassuring i mean like does twitter need to shake up maybe um there was an interesting post i can't remember the chap's name now but he runs 37 signals um in an h which won't help you at all and you'll find him with a quick google but anyway he had an interesting post around it sort of putting it in a bit of context and other times when similar things have happened to a good effect um and saying you know we all think musk is being a bit of an idiot around it but he does at least have pedigree of running some good businesses whether he runs them well or not i have no idea you know but does he just drive people harder does he just say it can be done and when it works it's great but if it fails it's gonna look awful um and twitter is very very public um so i guess it's just the public nature of that bigger change on something that touches everybody and therefore you know a lot
26:24of people i know everyone used twitter but a lot of people like and i'm i'm the same i used to use twitter a lot kind of drop topics it went a bit toxic anyway i'd like something to change i guess because i'd pretty much stopped using it anyway um will it get better or worse if it gets worse at this point i'm not too fussed i spent years building up a bit of a following or it happened i didn't build it consciously but it's a bit of a shame i don't use many other social networks anymore um and i've seen sort of some talk about mastodon but that all seems to be the sort of the very tech people look at that for everyone else it just seems to be a bit too complicated and just wouldn't really work um so if it's not there is it it's just one less i guess um yeah it'd be interesting to see where it goes you know who knows maybe it'll work out better i think on the point about the other businesses though if you look at the other businesses you know the ones that still involved with solar city tesla spacex all have a very grand vision about what they want to do you know solar city space and tesla work together very well it's all about that kind of sustainable engineering spacex is about expanding our reach and making you know space more accessible what the hell has twitter got to do with any of this it doesn't have a grand scheme the grand scheme seems to be let's burn it to the ground so your grand scheme should be can we get everyone collaborating without the toxicity can you turn it into a positive conversation right which was you said what what evidence is that toxicity toxicity is something they're trying to remove i don't know i'm not saying there is i'm saying that should be the vision should be yeah but not when they first started that was kind of what what everyone liked about the social media it hooked you up and you only got the good bits and then they got full of junk accounts and everything else so it could still be a grand vision of actually if you could harness everyone everywhere to do good stuff then they're brilliant platforms i i've no idea if that is the intention um you know i guess we can give the benefit of the doubt and say must have visions of wanting to make things better in different ways whether you would agree with them maybe but
28:29this seems like the odd one out the others are all engineering businesses um you know even the trains in a tube thing you know has a point this doesn't seem to have a point yeah and then you know that's well you you you two have brought up two interesting things like one i you know i hadn't thought of the obvious thing you were saying ben of like you know this is the the same pattern you could call it the uh you know the uh uh i don't know the crisis driven chesterson's fence demolition right where you you got to come up with some like crisis to do something and then uh and then you leave and everyone has to rebuild the fence and they're like oh i don't know how this is different than the fence we already had it was working pretty well you're all this is also the second time in 30 days i've heard a chesterson's fence reference which is i i don't know i don't know what i'm doing with my life that i've heard it twice uh but i'm doing it uh and and then and then uh you know there's also the uh the the not having a uh or or having a grand plan and what it should be that's also interesting to think of in the sense of maybe that's why there's all this rotating on like well why don't we just you know solve international money transfers with twitter like you know you got to come up with some big ambition ambitious thing but i wonder like you mean like paypal yeah exactly yeah like i wonder if you know one of one of the things in uh i i i talk about with people who are trying to get better at software who are trying to eat the software or whatever is that you do need like some kind of urgency and and i guess another type of urgency is like something big to do and so there is there is sort of a question of like yeah what do you do when you run out of urgency like there's no more like big grand thing to pursue and then the on the other hand the other side of that which which i was thinking about maybe yesterday is uh you know at late like you were saying ed i i mean i've used twitter for like 16 years and i and i feel like probably it's been directly
30:33responsible for all sorts of good stuff mostly in my career that's happened in my life i can't think of bad stuff it's been responsible for but one doesn't like to poke the bear when it comes to that uh but like it also like if if we didn't have twitter there wouldn't really be like 24 hour urgency to anything anymore we would just have to like wait for the newsletters to come out or for someone to send us an email or rss feeds yeah yeah i guess i guess but there would be urgency inside groups but maybe not this sort of like global urgency we we might like i don't know if we'll ever break out of the the the the 24 hour cycle but like we'll get closer and closer to like the economist urgency we're just like i don't know i can wait till next week it's cool don't need to know what's going on but i i think most billionaires just basically buy i don't know a bugatti or something and then smash it into a tree but but instead we're buying businesses and smashing those into trees instead it's just it's the same cycle repeating surely well i'm i'm looking forward to the uh the the next meeting usually the trope is like you know we want to run like google or uh or facebook or whatever and hopefully someone will say soon we want to run like uh you know the big tech companies except twitter we don't want to run like twitter that that would that would be fun to hear in some little executive soire about digital transformation uh stuff well also uh we came out with our state of uh state of supply chain open source edition uh survey did y'all get a chance to uh look at that yeah i'd had a sneak peek at that and um it was good that it was it was nice to see that survey repeated again and uh you know across a wide sort of range of businesses of different sizes responding to that turns out that devs go faster and they're more productive with a supply chain which is um a good validation i think of
32:36many of the things that we've been talking about recently um i was uh fortunate enough to co-present a talk at explore which was about um supply chains in part um i'll put a link in the show notes for that um but yeah it was good i think it's a good survey it's definitely worth reading and we can link to that as well can't we in the show notes if people want to have a look at the survey they can for sure and a new product as well a tamage tanzu image builder uh which is about sort of packaging open source amongst other things uh so that you can uh you know use them confidently in your organization and get some of that kind of code confidence back uh which is a something i'm thinking about a lot at the moment as well code confidence that's yeah that sounds like a good youtube short get your code confidence back it is and i want to do it like the old there's a song isn't there kissing with confidence i want to do it like that but coding with confidence instead i think that would be hilarious you know the the piano songs recently was that really good one wasn't there's few of those there should be a contract service by now that's you know i need my it rap can you do one for me please yeah so yeah i'm pretty i want to suggest maybe ben uh i want to just just give you a bit of a stretch goal maybe you could record a theme song for our podcast because you know we don't have any music and uh that could be says since you're since it sounds like you're going to be moving into uh singing advice for programmers and that that is to say not advice about singing but you will be singing the advice no i think you misunderstand i was looking for some budget to go find someone to record something you really don't want to listen to this i promise you that it's not gonna happen for all the right reasons as well yeah you don't want that well fair enough well uh i i uh uh i don't well i i did a little video which i'll have to upload to our youtube but it's on a uh uh a tech news
34:40website kind of going over my my part of what i thought was interesting from from that supply chain study the open source thing which is basically just as you were noting ben i think you summarized it better is just like you know there's it's no big mystery that most everyone uses open source and actually if you do look at the results it's only like two or three percent of people who don't use open source because i think there's maybe like 90 of people who weren't using open source but a large part of that leftover 10 are people who are currently making their policy or haven't deployed their code yet so there's there's actually a very small percentage who are just i don't know who these people are like they must not be using linux but there's some some people maybe they do like industrial control systems or something where they've written everything from the ground up to like you know move a robot arm that installs watch parts or something uh but anyhow to your point might be linux yeah maybe embedded linux though wouldn't it it's like yeah i i can't think either it's like who's so invested on well you'd like like i think because i think web os was open sourced and then there's like q emu or something yeah yeah but i think that's open sourced yeah right so like all all these little like embedded os's i i don't know and then well maybe like the core of mainframe stuff isn't open sourced so if you've got like a unisys box somewhere i don't know but even then probably like some tools who knows i forget what i was basically you need a supply chain to handle all that so you don't have to worry about it but don't even browsers contain a whole bunch isn't there like open source license pages on the browser about pages and stuff like there must be so yeah yeah anyways odd well i think uh are there any other news uh we should go over i think i think
36:41in this episode we had a good cleaning out here there's a whole bunch of links to dig into more details that uh you the listener if you're watching us stream this live you can go to if you go to tonsutalk.com and you can find this episode uh you can dig into but is there anything else uh we should mention before we close out well like if we're all you know if folks do desert twitter like a sinking ship then where are they going to maybe they could tell us in the comments and uh tell us where they're going to i guess mastodon's very popular i know you had a little uh play about with it recently didn't you michael is that right yeah yeah i set up a a mastodon thing sure you know as as you do when there's some new uh i think i think i think like right as you get the early adopters there whatever is before the chasm that's when you always got to go sign up and squat your name and check things out i i like to think of it as the sort of the the wild west you know the the migration west in the us where it's like go and get your plot of land yeah yeah i mean there was there was a point where ohio was the wild west i think and so you know just there's some american geography for you check out ohio but uh good good place i think that's i think no that's that's is it cincinnati where they put cinnamon on their chili or something weird oh that sounds nice have you ever had that you know you know the chili as in like uh ground or as you would say minced meat uh that's been seasoned with uh with stuff and then i think i'm pretty sure they put cinnamon on it in cincinnati yeah i've definitely had uh i've definitely had something like that before yeah it's good but um but yeah not not so much the minced meat being you know trying to be good and plant-based and all that oh sure you can you can have just bean chili you don't have to put that exactly oh such a good bean chili just don't just whatever you do don't put a any type of squash or uh as as we would say in the states a zucchini in there because you're just going to end up with mush and uh if you want mush that's delicious make some lentils and uh that that'll be
38:45better well we record this at 11 a.m amsterdam time 10 a.m your time when that means that i can go eat lunch now after all that food talk which is uh which is great yes well done yeah i cannot eat lunch for another hour and 20 minutes but we are thinking about it so thanks very much i'm in my must lose a bit of weight before christmas so i can put it all back on again well maybe maybe next time i i started speaking of that i've started thinking about my relationship to my past and my future self and i think maybe that is a good uh you know thinking about my future self wanting to eat a lot during christmas you should tell me you can give me some therapy about that next episode how i can contact my my future self just as a preview the theory i'm developing is that if you have three selves your future self your present self and your past self i think it's very confusing what you do about your past self because it's immutable so it's just like why bother right like and i've come up with i think five different things you can do about your past self but i'm not really sure there's there's just like it's not useful it's kind of like it's kind of like you know there's always like those those uh three to fifteen uh utensils you have in your kitchen drawers and you're like i don't know why i have this i don't ever do anything with it like there's i could do something like when am i ever going to want to spiral cut a cucumber so why do i have this like i think i think you're thinking about it all wrong you know the world has changed politicians now do not think that the past is immutable oh there you go around well i'll tell you that perspective i'll tell you one thing that's immutable listeners is if you've listened this far you can't change what happened unless you have a time machine but i'm sure it was enjoyable and uh if if you don't subscribe to this podcast already you should go to tonsutalk.com and figure out how to subscribe we we also live stream these each week and you can check on that and with that we'll see everyone next time bye bye