Well, it's it's KubeCon this week in Detroit. Lots of lots of lots of news about Detroit. But, you know, we have a lot of people there. We'll put it we'll put a link in the show notes in case you listen to this podcast before it ends in a couple of days. But we have there's all sorts of our Tanzu pals there going over stuff that you can check out. And you can even if you want to, you can go, I saw, and request a meeting, which I think, boy, I wonder how that works out. That must be fun to have a page where you have meetings requested just from like anyone, I guess. But we have we have several talks there. And I think they already had Backstage Con on Monday. So I'm looking forward to seeing all the recordings. Well, let me be realistic. I'm not going to watch all of the recordings at all. But it's all it's always fun to to see. Now, now I said we're going to cover it next week. But have you all noticed anything coming out of there that's gotten your your interest so far? You know, at all? I would have to say I don't know either. But maybe, but maybe, maybe you're, you're faster than me. I definitely saw something. Yeah, I definitely saw something. Where? That's a good point. It could have been Twitter. Because, you know, everyone's going so so you're getting stuff coming from right, left and center. But some, some survey, I think, about, about, you know, service meshes, and the reasons why people choose them, I think. There was something else. Let me come back to me. Maybe I'll think about it and figure out what it was. Maybe I'll maybe I'll have a quick look on Twitter while you're while you're talking. Well, let me ask you this, Ed. You are a maven of whatever we call this space, the cloud native news. Now, surely, and you followed this stuff long enough, you know that the week before a major conference like this, everyone releases their surveys or their information. Do you have, like, any highlights from the surveys that were released the week ahead of time to, you know, really, like, hit the big conference buzz?
2:08I'm not sure I do. I think there were a few weeks earlier. I thought we covered it on one of the last ones. I remember we had a whole bunch on service. I think you're right. The, the, the, the PDF people were faster this year. Yeah, there were several of them. And I remember saying, you know, this is obviously the KubeCon buildup, et cetera. So I suspect it's probably one of those, Ben. You might be remembering our own conversations about. Yes. I'm pretty sure security came out in those. And I forget when this came out. I didn't actually check, but, you know, we came out with, like, the second instance of our supply chain management open source edition survey, which is, you know, a bunch of questions about how, how bit larger organizations. I think this year it was 500 or more people, but most of them were like a thousand or more employee companies. So big enough. And, uh, anyways, I, I, uh, someone asked me at a, at a, some news site to do a little video about it. So I was looking over that and, uh, I don't know. Open source usage is that like about, I would say 95%. So pretty cool. And then the funny part is when you ask those 10% of people who aren't using it, which I have a lot of questions for them, but when you ask them, I think it's like, I'm going to get these numbers wrong, but a significant amount of them say they don't do it. Because they either haven't come up with a policy yet. So they do want to do it, but they're just putting their policy together or they haven't shipped their code yet. Right. So it's actually like, you know, when you kind of, there's actually a very single low single number percentage who like don't use open source, which like I'm a little suspicious of, because that also means they don't use Linux, which is sort of like, hmm, I don't know. You probably are using it somewhere in there, but whatever. But there you go. So I've, I've gone to the records, cause this is how we do these things, right? Of our own Podcorn podcast. And back on the 11th, we did indeed cover. So Sysdig had a threat report as did Buoyant. And that's probably where those service mesh bits come from. But to be fair to Ben point, right? It is all over the place. I mean, there's loads of these surveys all the time.
4:10There probably has been another one at KubeCon as well, given that there's like a service mesh day. And I'm sure again, security, security and operations for me, the two things, hence that whole ambient mesh piece that everyone wants it for the security, but also if they can't, then use it. It's no good. So making it easier to use and secure are the two things driving it. But you know what? I did remember what I'd seen. Okay. Sorry about that. So I remember what I'd seen. The thing I'd seen was trends. So, so for day zero, you know, folks are sort of starting to turn up to the conference. People are asking them questions about, you know, what, what are the things you wanted to see? What are the things you wanted to spend more time thinking about and getting interesting in interested in? And two things that stood out for me were supply chains and supply chain security specifically. And the other one was as part of that, probably related to that was S-bombs, S-bombs being very top of agenda this year for a lot of folks. And that reminded me that Memonetti's Twitter handle, memes of Kubernetes, they had this, they had this bingo grid of, you know, things that people will be asking. So if you haven't seen it, go check it out on Twitter. That was very funny as well, just for a bit of levity, but it, it, it, it, it involved, there was also S-bombs on that chart, which, you know, ties in very closely with, I think what people are saying they're interested in. Well, I, I started, I listened to a lot of books nowadays and I started listening to this one about, about Achilles of all people. And, uh, so now, Memonetti's, like, I, I was trying to remember which, which Greek king who was fighting the Trojans is that, and I'm not sure, I'm not sure that's one. Well, we'll see if, uh, a Kubernetes comes up, king Kubernetes and, and, you know, his, Patrokinetis probably is the name of his son or something, but we'll, we'll find out. Well, uh, you know, uh, speaking of conferences, so in about, about a week or so, uh, over a week, don't worry if anyone's listening, I actually have it in my calendar and my flights are booked.
6:16I know when, when it is, I just don't have it in my mind, but, uh, I, I'm going to be at, uh, Explore EU and, uh, I have a talk that, uh, uh, I'm looking forward to with some of our friends from Mercedes, Thomas and, uh, Roland. And they, and Thomas has keynoted at, um, at both the CF summit and, uh, SpringOne, uh, recently. And, uh, we have another one of our colleagues, Darren, somehow we're going to pull off a four person talk, but I think, I think we've got it made. I think we'll do it. Uh, I've been taking what I call the microservices approach to giving a multi-person talk, which we are, we are very decoupled. We've got little components and we've minimized the decoupling, the decoupling. We've maximized the decoupling. Anyhow, uh, you know, since, uh, I think, I think we have a subsection of our podcast here called what's up with platform engineering, uh, as, as a concept. And I think this, uh, as, as such, I think what I, what we've been trying to do with this talk is like Mercedes, uh, has been using, they've been using the Tanzu application service of cloud foundry based thing. Pivotal cloud founder, it used to be called for like seven years now. So they have a lot of learnings about what we would call platform engineering. Now running a platform, thinking about like the developers as customers. And so it'll be good to, uh, hear from them. And then we have another, uh, someone that works for us now, uh, Darren Rice. And I'm sure he would want me to anonymize where he used to work, but it was a large bank, a large global bank. And he similarly ran that team or actually, I have no idea if he ran the team, but he was involved in some managerial situation with a platform team. So he'll be talking as well. Uh, but that, that will be at explore, which is the week after next November, uh, something. Isn't it seven, six or seventh. Yeah. There you go. It starts on the Tuesday, Tuesday, a week on a week on Tuesday in Barcelona. So you can, you can still, you can still go.
8:16Yeah. And I think, I think for folks on a talk, that sounds great. Can't you get a ping pong table and do like mixed doubles? Oh yes. Yeah. You know, maybe do it that way. Yeah. You know, there was a, uh, uh, the third, is it the third? No, the second startup I worked at, they were all into foosball and ping pong. And I was just like the problem. We were, it was a very short lived startup, but six months was long enough. Yes. Well, that was the joke. Six months was long enough for many of my coworkers there to get really good at foosball. Yeah. I don't know if you ever have this effect, but like they got so good that I was just like, no, I'm not going to play with you. Like I am not interested. Yeah. Every visit I ever made to the pivotal office was like that with a ping pong table there. I would go in once every six months. Yeah. Absolutely. Creamed. Yeah. Well, speaking of our platform engineering watch, I think, uh, you, you came across, uh, like in, in our, our, uh, our news roundup stuff that we all read, Ed, you found like six or seven sort of things worth highlighting, which, which I think was good. I picked out six or seven. I think I probably found about 50. Exactly. There's, there's lots of them, but in particular, uh, there's, there's a working group at the CNCF. What's going on over there? Yeah. Well, I guess it's, I mean, it's everything coming around again, I guess I've got question for you really related to the fact you've been talking about this for seven years and why it seems to be coming back around. But I read that and just thought, right, you know, it's a solid thing, right? There's a certain amount of buzz. There's a load of blogs. People like to talk about the buzzwords, but when you get a working group going, then it's an, a definite thing going forwards, right? Standards take years to form all that kind of stuff. So I saw that. And actually they've been talking this working group since late 2021, I think. Um, and I've sort of seen various trends coming, right? GitOps, operators, pipelines, these things they were watching and saying, where do they fit? How can we work with them? And they were originally around app delivery. Um, and they'd sort of been watching and saying, so there's all this stuff that's come up for
10:16automating the creation of infrastructure and there's all this tie into applications, but there is a gap between actually making it work together. You could now spin up all your infrastructure automatically, but does that automatically provision with the apps? Is it tied to the apps? All that kind of stuff. Um, and you know, it's an interesting way of seeing it because they've been two camps previously, right? Two different teams, all that kind of stuff. And again, it all ties into DevOps, cloud native. So it's interesting that they're now looking at how can you do that? And then, you know, they're including backstage, cross-plane, dapper, a whole load of things, which are all very much sort of, of the now, shall we say? Um, so it's going to be interesting to see how that sort of ties together, maybe from a more structured perspective. Yeah, I'm, I'm eager to put it on the pile of things that I really should read that I'm looking forward to reading that will not be read, uh, in a timely fashion, but no, it was fun because I, I was reading through the, uh, the, the kind of the post on it and, uh, it looks like they have a good optimistic take on, on pulling all this stuff together and kind of figuring out what's going on there. And I was thinking like, and there, there's, there's some, there's some section in it called like, uh, Kubernetes for everything. And I was thinking, all right, maybe what we can start calling platform engineering is DevOps for Kubernetes. I think that's what we're talking about here. And, uh, I'll see if that sticks and isn't too much of a jerky way of phrasing it. Cause you know, I'm trying not to be the old man yells at platform engineering, uh, type type of thing here. I think, I think there's maybe something, uh, exciting to, to do there. So why do you quickly, I, this is just me being generally curious, right? And hopefully the audience find interesting as well, but why do you think it's sort of come around again so much, given that, you know, you have been talking platform as a product for seven, eight years. It was everything pivotal did. Why is it coming around again? Is it just because there's so many more tools and that Kubernetes is a new platform. So everyone's discovering it all over again for Kubernetes? You know, I have, I have, I have two, two theories. And one needs to be informed theory.
12:17My first theory is that, so speaking of surveys, uh, well, whatever I won't, I won't back it up with data. There's plenty of charts. I would, I don't know if it's data. There's lots of charts, uh, that show that basically like, you know, Kubernetes is hard for developers to find value in, to use basically. And so I think, but then also what you see in the surveys is like, like three years ago, operations people were kind of like struggling to stand up Kubernetes and do things with it. Right. Cause it's, it's hard to install a cloud basically. And then not only install a cloud, but install like a, a, a layer on top of a cloud, whatever. So I think like, I'm not going to say everyone has that figured out, but that's figured out well enough that like, it's not as big a deal as it used to be. And then you're like, you know, my, my funny little story on this is like, all right, so you do all that work and then you have a blinking cursor. That's what you've done. Or, or as people our age would call it a dial tone, which I don't think anyone knows what that is anymore. Cause there is no dial tone. Uh, and so like, so we should stop using that metaphor in tech unless we're talking to a veteran it people. Uh, but so then you have a blinking cursor and your developers need to do something. And then you encounter like what we see now is like, you know, Kubernetes is hard for application developers. And so you need like a return to the operations people, like figuring out how to build this stuff up and make it easier for developers. And that naturally flows into like, you know, whatever, whatever platform engineering is like, that's a perfect match for that. And then I think the second thing is like, there, uh, there's this notion over the past two years, one and a half year, like cumulative of now, is that how you phrase that? Including now from this date, two years back. You know what you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Of, of like internal development platforms with, with no portals and portal is always an
14:18unfortunate word to use nowadays. That, that is like, uh, that's a word for you. Are you in an intranet? Yes. Yes. And, and, and, uh, I think that kind of emerged maybe last calendar year as a thing. And I think it might, and then also backstage emerged as a thing. And then several large companies started using backstage, which is, you know, documented on the backstage sites somewhere like American airlines uses it and all sorts of other people making these internal development platforms. And so Gartner in February, there's a blog post they had, and they released a paper, which we have licensed and you can find a link to it. If you go to tonsutalk.com writing up IDPs and stuff like that, um, which is actually, it's a wonderful paper. It's great. Like all Gartner papers are wonderful, but this one is wonderful in the sense of it's actionable and like detailed and like has screenshots of American airlines thing. So it's, it's, it's interesting and informative, not just like, you know, whatever there's all sorts of audiences for Gartner material. It's good stuff. Uh, but, uh, so that came out and then I haven't looked at the funding history of this, but you have like humanitech and I forget if ambassador does this, but there's a couple of startups that have like really good DevRel people and probably really good tech marketing people. And they have just marked, this is a, probably a family friendly podcast. So they have just marketed the crap out of this idea. And then eventually they rolled it into platform con, which was in July. And then all, so if you go look at the people who are in platform con, it's all the DevOps crowd, the, the crowd that's out, the DevOps, some SRE people, the crowd that's been there. And so it's almost like, you know, that was a comfortable new, like umbrella to put things under and now you're just off to the races, right? So it's kind of a, a, a comforting embrace of this new concept. And I mean, I, I, this is my totally theoretic thing. My, my theory is that maybe the notion of, uh, of, of internal development portals, or
16:21as you say, an intranet, uh, like is, do y'all have this phrase over there? The, uh, you know, the dog that caught the bus, like I, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's one of these things where like, I think, you know, like a dog's always chasing after a bus and never catches it. And then like when the dog finally catches the bus, the dog's like, oh, what do I do? Right. And I, and I, so I think like this idea of platform engineering became like a super, super set of just like internal development portals. And now it's basically DevOps for Kubernetes. And then my, my third theory is more of a conspiracy one, which is just like, well, I've kind of already mentioned, it's just like a really successful marketing effort, which, but I don't know. I I'm not really sure what it is. Well, just to clarify, the dog that caught the bus is now how we select our prime ministers. So, so we're very familiar with it. Uh, you know, the dog runs after the bus and then the bus stops and then the dog goes, okay, I caught the bus. You know what? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Get off the bus. That's, that's funny. Leave the bus. Let's leave the bus now. I've spent too long on this bus. Yeah. And, and I, I mean, I think like, I mean, I've, I've spent a lot of time in the past month now, like trying to figure out platform engineering. And I think I was just talking with someone yesterday who is, they're, they're typically a more dismissive person than I am. And they're just like, ah, it's just DevOps, you know, old DevOps in no, is it the phrase new wine and old bottles? Wouldn't you want to put, yeah, you would want to put new wine in old bottles, right? Because therefore it would seem more expensive, but isn't the phrase like old wine, I, I, whatever, you know, it's just recycled. And, uh, this is like the idiom edition of this podcast. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I think it's just recycled. I think, I think it is like, I think there's some like, uh, value and some rebooting to like kind of subsuming and evolving the DevOps idea.
18:23And, and to, to your question way back when, uh, in my ramble here. Yeah. I think, I think the platform as a product people are trying to drag all of that notion into platform engineering. And so like, you know, our, our, our old pal, Paula Kennedy has several talks of that in that community and, you know, basically introducing product management into it. So, and when you said earlier that some folks seem to prefer describing it as DevOps for Kubernetes rather than platform engineering. Oh, that was just me. I just made up that phrase. You made it. So you, you don't use that regularly. It's not. No, no, no, no. I, I, I thought of that like two hours ago. Uh, cause, cause I, I was reading the, the, the blog posts from the CNCF about their working group. And, uh, there's a heading there that says Kubernetes for everything. And, uh, you know, the, you know, part of the other thing, like I was saying in my platform engineering, like Fox molder analysis there is like, uh, yeah. Like I think it all involves Kubernetes, right? Like I think everyone more or less who talks about it, except for the hand waving PowerPoint people like me, it's always about Kubernetes at the bottom. Uh, and so like that's therefore to be jokey about it. It's just like DevOps for Kubernetes. Uh, I see. So the joke is now explained, but, but the platform is a product thing. And the fact that it's evolved into platform engineering, I mean, are you hearing that folks are really comfortable with that, that, that folks are very comfortable thinking about platform engineering, they know what it describes. They can understand the personas involved. I mean, I don't, I don't know. I haven't, I haven't gone out and talked with like a whole bunch of, as, as you would say, uh, end users, but it feels like the, the, the thought Lords and ladies and, and, uh, other, other honorific pronouns, uh, like aren't don't, I think they're generally cool with it.
20:27Like it, it seems to make sense. And I think, uh, yeah, I mean, to be a bit gripey, right? Like, I mean, we have, we have, uh, lots of white papers and presentations and practices about, about this type of thing with, um, cloud foundry based platforms and other ways of doing things. And, and it's, it's pretty much the same practices, right? Like if you go back and read, I think our platform as a product white paper was actually revised in like 2021, pretty, pretty recently, but if you go back and read it, it's more or less, less the same thing just with like less tools talking, right? Like, like it's, it's more focused on the process or culture as they say. Engineering is any platform, right? But actually I think this current version of it is sort of the more recent one in a year or so is, as you said, all Kubernetes, I quite like that. You know, work DevOps for Kubernetes. Cause actually DevOps been around for forever, SRE has been around forever. But if someone now says to me platform engineering, cause I spent my life looking at all these blogs and everything else, I assume they are referring to the more recent, right. You mean doing all of this on a Kubernetes platform and we're talking internal developer platforms and so on. And it's that's just that terminology that says, right, we've got a common part of terminology. It could have been anything seven years ago, 14 years ago, platform engineering could have been a generic discipline, but this seems to refer to that set of tools, that part of the industry. Yeah. Yeah. In that sense, at least it's useful for me. Someone says that I'm like, right, we're talking about the same thing. Yeah. And I, and I think, I think part of what's palpably changed, particularly over the last sort of 24 months or so is the level of customization that's now possible in that area. If you, if we think, if we are thinking back to previous platforms, they weren't that customizable, right? You couldn't change the supply chain to a huge degree. You sort of got what you got out of the box and that was it. So the fact that it's more customizable now also gives you more to engineer with, you know,
22:27there's more choice to be made, right? Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's, that's a good, that's a good point is that the, the, I mean, I guess it's intentional. It's always hard to know with Kubernetes what's intentional or not, you know, from six years ago versus what, what the deal is now, just, just like any technology, but like, yeah, the intention is to have much more configurability, ironically, many more options. So that's a good point. Yeah. But, you know, back to what you're saying, Ed, like, I think, you know, you are well-trained as a technologist to always be technology, technologically agnostic about methodologies and theories. And in this case, I think it's one of those who are like, sure, you could do like bare metal platform engineering and you could also like build a car from scratch, like, or, or like probably in the majority of cases, like if you were to look at the, whether it's a pie or a donut, like it's mostly going to be one color and that color is going to be Kubernetes and there's going to be a few other things there. So it's sort of like, yeah, I mean, there's a little crack in the donut up here, but let's just not focus on that. And, and, and that's, you know, when I, I wrote like a matching my style here, like a lengthy, very unedited newsletter edition where I was consternating about platform engineering. And that was my main suggestion. I think from there is just like, you should just call it that this is about Kubernetes and just like move on. Right. Cause that's going to save you a lot of time as, as far as like, it's going to save you a lot of that one slide where you're like, well, it doesn't really matter what technology you're using and you can do this, that, and the other, but we're going to go ahead and use Kubernetes as the thing that we talk about. Like, I'm sure y'all have read these tech books forever. They're just like, these principles can apply to anything, but we're going to use this exact version of this exact framework from this, uh, this exact place to illustrate everything. It's a natural circuit breaker. It just, it's like, okay, I'm just going to break the circuit here.
24:27There's too much, there's too much flowing in. Let's just do this. Yeah. Well, uh, I think that's your platform engineering check-in for this episode. Good, good segment. I, I think, I think, uh, you know, in addition to checking out that blog post, if it's, uh, it's well worth your time to, uh, go check out that Gartner piece that, that we have licensed because I think it's a, what I really like about that piece among other things, but one part that I think is you won't really find is there's a, a capability breakdown, like the functions of a platform and what they do in there somewhere. Um, and the only thing that comes close to that is like, uh, you know, charity majors had that post a couple of weeks ago where she has a table and, and those are two good artifacts kind of like listing things out there. But, uh, if you go to tanzutalk.com, you can, uh, find a link to that or just search for like Tanzu Gartner internal development platform paper, and maybe it shows up. Who knows? Well, also since last time, uh, Google had their big conference and I think I forget the exact number, but I think, and I really liked this blog post, so I'm not making fun of it, but I think they had a 143 cloud, cloud related announcements. Now, 10 or 12 of those were customer references and partnership announcements, which I also appreciated. In fact, I, I sent a message to one of our people who kind of is involved in that. It's like, Ooh, we should do this style for our conferences. I mean, even if it's 143 things, it was one sentence on each and it was, uh, it was nice. It was a good post, but what, uh, what, what, what were, what were you two most interested in, uh, from there? I'll start with you, Ed, since I know you've actually looked over things. Yeah. So I was, I guess focused on their sort of cloud native side of things, right? I mean, it's always interesting when you watch these big ones, because there was Google cloud next, but there was also Microsoft Ignite and both conferences obviously cover the whole amount of the cloud, which is just like you said, a huge amount of stuff. And there's tons of it of which I've absolutely no knowledge, even though I'm a techie guy,
26:28it's, you know, when they get into the depth of either AI or ML, some of the low, no loco platforms, I don't know them enough to really know what the announcements are about, whether it would matter how much they are, but certainly for the cloud native stuff, they had, um, some nice intros on Anthos. So kudos to, um, Richard Strother, who did a, I thought a really nice demo of how you can use Anthos. And it was all, it was the perfect blend of sort of some technology and how it affects the actual business and a use case, um, and tied together sort of a bunch of their products, um, was just very nicely given presentation. I actually liked the whole way that Google cloud was put together. It was all quite clean. I didn't see any big celebrity endorsement sections, a load of things that are sort of bugbears for me. And it just seemed like quite a nice piece, this thing it's nicely split up. So their, their keynotes tended to be, you know, here are 10 things you need to know from 10 different product managers, maybe in each person give one pitch. I predict, and they made some prediction about what would happen in five years, then tied in their products to what Google were doing about that. But it made it really quite easy to, to absorb things. Like you said, they've got a post saying, here's all the things we announced for the sentence each, right? I can scan those. And there's a link to more detail for each one. And incidentally, Microsoft did the same thing. They've done that for a few years. They have a book of news. And if you actually don't catch the conference, we don't have time. You can just go to that one blog post. Everything that gets announced is in one place and it's got links to dive into everything else. And it's so nice. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I, you know, I, I want to consume all that stuff. And I'm at you, I think I will watch every session, right? You know, a lot of times I don't, but I do at least want to scan that list and go, right, which ones do I definitely want to earmark time for and make sure I do watch and just instead of having to try and trawl 15 different sources or RSS, one post, there it is job done. I mean, I suppose we do a little bit of this here, but like I, every time I see our internal wrap-ups of things, I always think, oh, we should just publish that. I mean, you know, minus the confidential information that we want to keep to
28:30ourselves and the hundreds of people who receive the email, but nonetheless, like that would be, it'd be a good newsletter to stitch together a lot of the work that you do, Ed. And then also we have another thing that's like the weekly roundup of all the content we produced. And that would be, that would be a hell of an email that, but, uh, it sure would be useful to have all of that out there. There is always a lot, but, um, yeah, the other thing, they released a new security thing going back to that service mission. This isn't service mesh related. Um, I don't actually have the actual name. Let me see if I can get up the blog post, but it was, um, software delivery shield. There you go. A nice enough name for it, I guess. Um, which for them is, yeah, they've done a good job by the looks of things of stitching together, sort of adding insecurity at various steps through their software supply chain using various Google cloud services. Um, so it covers cloud run, it covers things like GKE, um, and it's sort of, you know, the vulnerability assessments, but it also, it will take you through from source code. So it'll scan, scan workloads inside Kubernetes clusters and things, but it's got code scanning when you're committing your code. It's got various sort of scanning in different runtimes, like I said, so cloud run, or if you're running it in GKE, but just aims to pull it together into a slightly more holistic. Do you have confidence in your supply chain? So again, same sort of stuff. A lot of people are focusing on this is their version, I guess, right? If you're all in on Google cloud, this is probably a great thing to have. Um, it's not going to work for you if you're not all in their cloud, I guess. Um, but again, look like it was, you know, it was well presented. It's the spot, I guess, everyone is focusing on at the minute cloud security. So that one, some of the Anthos pieces, sort of some new additions in there, none of them sort of ground shaking, none of them change what it does, but just tweaks and improvements here and there. Um, those are the sort of things that stood out from that one. And there were some, Ignite had a few good ones as well, but anyone else see anything at Google before I move on to the Ignite stuff? Well, I, I did take a slightly deeper look at the, uh, software delivery shield that you were just talking about, Ed, and it did have some very commendable, uh, parts to it. Yeah. It looked really interesting.
30:30There was, there was cloud-based IDEs, for example. So, you know, no need for sort of a local developer environment or sharing data locally with, with developers, which is, you know, um, cause for concern for folks like, uh, last pass, for example, you just recently had a developer environment that was compromised. Uh, so, you know, it sort of helps, uh, helps with the sort of security aspects of some of that. And then, uh, the way that it was integrated into a supply chain was good. I also liked the fact that they'd, um, said they'd looked at the top 250 open source project, um, dependencies and sort of created a curated list of those. And they were going to continually scan them and make sure that they were, um, uh, you know, as free as possible of vulnerabilities. And they'd added a new dashboard to sort of show some of that vulnerability, which is very similar to the security dashboard in, um, in terms of application platform, I thought. So, so yeah, it's, it was, uh, it was a nice presentation that one, and it had quite a lot of good detail on it as well. Yeah. So I didn't quite like the naming to be fair while we're having a love fest. You know, I just find software shield seems to just work in my head as a nice, that's what you're actually trying to do. Um, and yeah, I had something else to mention there that went straight out of my head afterwards when you were talking, I was like, oh yeah, that was a good point. Anyway, you might come back. Well, then you also mentioned Ignite Microsoft's conference and, uh, it looks, it looks like they, uh, you know, are, are like, like all of us in this field trying to figure out like templates or kind of baseline things, sort of like the, uh, you know, back to the helping the application developers out, having the, uh, having a starter, uh, for, for various like parts of infrastructure management. Yeah. So they announced Azure deployment environments. Um, and I haven't played with too much of their sort of previous ones. So they did have something as your dev test labs, which kind of was similar in that it
32:30was aiming to let you spin up a full environment, right? So create yourself a dev test QA, whatever, and try and then keep them in lockstep with a production and again, all done through code, but it was all still based on VMs, that sort of first iteration. And obviously a lot of the cloud stuff you can do infrastructure as code, but it still ends up being a bit piecemeal or you have to write scripts and code to kind of string together, creating all the bits and pieces. So this is them just productizing it a little better and saying, right, this is going to be an aim that will string together neatly in theory, sort of any Azure service and let you say, I need one of them, two of them, three of them, put them all together like this, deploy one, deploy two, deploy four. Um, and interestingly, they've also got, what was it? Devbox. I think they talked about that briefly. Um, Ben, which was a bit like, that's what I was going to mention just now when you said it was the idea of cloud IDs. So again, a secure kind of, I guess, developer environment with guardrails. So you can predefine it in advance. This is what you can have. This is what you can't have. Right. Spin one up job done. Um, and all that they're now building all this kind of into Azure deployment environments in theory, in the long run right now, it only does Azure templates. So arm templates, but they want to make it flexible so that it can work with Terraform or, you know, presumably whichever languages and frameworks are popular. So you could use those to spin up better development environments. So again, as you said, all targeting and trying to make things easier for developers, they obviously recognize that it's just difficult with a minute. Developers have got this, you know, context overload of having to learn 50,000 things and they can't do it. You've got to take some away and let them get back to what they're good at. You know, that, that reminds me when I was looking through those, uh, 143 things from, uh, from the Google cloud stuff, it, it made me realize, and this is probably what always go on, but just how much infrastructure stuff there still is in cloud. Like, you know, we're more or less focused on developers. And so, so we think about that, but you scroll through there and it's just like so many things that when I read, I'm like, wow, this is really boring, but like, you know, because I'm an application person, but it's just like networking things like sizes of compute and
34:32like on and on and on. And, and like, uh, there's still so much of that there for, for all these people to, uh, all the cloud people do evolve, which I don't know. That's kind of fun. I, it reminded me of the, uh, the two thousands. Remember, remember on the back of every tech magazine, which is another fun thing, like a dial tone, uh, there was always like, uh, like every now and then Oracle would have some ad and it would just be like, why, why we're better. And it would always just be some number next to a big black box. And, uh, you know, I always looked at those and I would just shrug, like, I don't know what's going on here. It's this one goes to 11, I guess is, is the story with this, but it's, uh, lots of infrastructure stuff scurrying about all the time. Yeah. Well, uh, irrelevant for, you know, forever and ever, except it still isn't someone else builds it for you. It's all done with code, but you still, someone, someone, somewhere needs to know what it is and does there need to be more of it? And do you need to hook it up to that? Yeah, that, that would, that would be a, that would be a fun, uh, like little, little five to 10 minute pep talk to give to like beleaguered operations people. It should just be like, look, every time something comes out, there's tons of infrastructure stuff. That's you, you're still there. Someone's got to figure this out. Like no one, you know, developers aren't going to know how to use that and how it'd be cost effective, be it cost effective. They still need, uh, all the old stuff there. Well, uh, as a reminder, we, uh, December 6th to 8th, we have SpringOne coming up in San Francisco and, uh, you know, I, I don't, I don't, I haven't prepared an awesome talk to go over, but I, I did get a little preview of like what we'll be doing in the keynotes and, uh, there, there's some fun stuff in there. Uh, that's a great encouraging way of getting people interested. Don't you think there's fun stuff in there? Uh, are you going to pay lots of money for that for a bit of fun? Better than your PlayStation folks. That's, uh, but you know, there'll be lots of great application development stuff there.
36:32A lot of, as, as we called it in this episode and as being called platform engineering talk, and then plenty of also just a managerial executive case studies. But if you go to SpringOne.io, uh, I think a hundred percent of the talks are now posted and you should check that out. And if you want to register, which you should, you can use the code Coté 200 to get $200 off. Um, and, uh, you know, come check it out. It should be fun. Hey, folks should be there on the day that they announce spring boot three. Really? I mean, it's, it's going to be a moment because spring boot three brings some pretty big changes and improvements and features that people have been asking for for years, particularly around native image and how to integrate native image. It's going to be a seminal moment. So you're going to want to be there. You're going to want the t-shirt, right? And there's always a t-shirt somewhere. So, uh, so you're going to want the t-shirt, I think. Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, that's it for this episode. Uh, if you want to get the show notes, you know, links to things we mentioned, download that, uh, that Gartner paper that goes over, uh, as I think we can also rechristen it developer intranets. Uh, you can, you can go to tonsutalk.com and find the show notes for this episode and, uh, click on that and download them and enjoy it. And with that, we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye. Bye. All right. Well, that was good. Let me, uh, I'll end the broadcast here. Goodbye, people watching the stream. Bye, anyone who's watching. Or the video. Enjoyed yourselves. I'm sorry I didn't look at the chat. I should have looked.