1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,180 Well, it's it's KubeCon this week in Detroit. Lots of lots of lots of news about Detroit. But, you know, we have a lot of people there. We'll put it we'll put a link in the show notes in case you listen to this podcast before it ends in a couple of days. 2 00:00:14,180 --> 00:00:36,120 But we have there's all sorts of our Tanzu pals there going over stuff that you can check out. And you can even if you want to, you can go, I saw, and request a meeting, which I think, boy, I wonder how that works out. That must be fun to have a page where you have meetings requested just from like anyone, I guess. 3 00:00:36,120 --> 00:01:05,460 But we have we have several talks there. And I think they already had Backstage Con on Monday. So I'm looking forward to seeing all the recordings. Well, let me be realistic. I'm not going to watch all of the recordings at all. But it's all it's always fun to to see. Now, now I said we're going to cover it next week. But have you all noticed anything coming out of there that's gotten your your interest so far? You know, at all? I would have to say I don't know either. 4 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,700 But maybe, but maybe, maybe you're, you're faster than me. 5 00:01:09,780 --> 00:01:33,140 I definitely saw something. Yeah, I definitely saw something. Where? That's a good point. It could have been Twitter. Because, you know, everyone's going so so you're getting stuff coming from right, left and center. But some, some survey, I think, about, about, you know, service meshes, and the reasons why people choose them, I think. 6 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:43,500 There was something else. Let me come back to me. Maybe I'll think about it and figure out what it was. Maybe I'll maybe I'll have a quick look on Twitter while you're while you're talking. 7 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:57,560 Well, let me ask you this, Ed. You are a maven of whatever we call this space, the cloud native news. Now, surely, and you followed this stuff long enough, you know that the week before a major conference like this, everyone releases their surveys or their information. 8 00:01:57,820 --> 00:02:06,840 Do you have, like, any highlights from the surveys that were released the week ahead of time to, you know, really, like, hit the big conference buzz? 9 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:14,360 I'm not sure I do. I think there were a few weeks earlier. I thought we covered it on one of the last ones. I remember we had a whole bunch on service. 10 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,960 I think you're right. The, the, the, the PDF people were faster this year. 11 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:26,740 Yeah, there were several of them. And I remember saying, you know, this is obviously the KubeCon buildup, et cetera. So I suspect it's probably one of those, Ben. You might be remembering our own conversations about. 12 00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:30,060 Yes. I'm pretty sure security came out in those. 13 00:02:30,940 --> 00:02:46,580 And I forget when this came out. I didn't actually check, but, you know, we came out with, like, the second instance of our supply chain management open source edition survey, which is, you know, a bunch of questions about how, how bit larger organizations. 14 00:02:46,580 --> 00:02:54,780 I think this year it was 500 or more people, but most of them were like a thousand or more employee companies. So big enough. 15 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:08,320 And, uh, anyways, I, I, uh, someone asked me at a, at a, some news site to do a little video about it. So I was looking over that and, uh, I don't know. Open source usage is that like about, I would say 95%. 16 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:22,960 So pretty cool. And then the funny part is when you ask those 10% of people who aren't using it, which I have a lot of questions for them, but when you ask them, I think it's like, I'm going to get these numbers wrong, but a significant amount of them say they don't do it. 17 00:03:24,140 --> 00:03:32,460 Because they either haven't come up with a policy yet. So they do want to do it, but they're just putting their policy together or they haven't shipped their code yet. 18 00:03:33,420 --> 00:03:47,940 Right. So it's actually like, you know, when you kind of, there's actually a very single low single number percentage who like don't use open source, which like I'm a little suspicious of, because that also means they don't use Linux, which is sort of like, hmm, I don't know. 19 00:03:47,940 --> 00:03:53,460 You probably are using it somewhere in there, but whatever. But there you go. 20 00:03:53,460 --> 00:03:56,660 So I've, I've gone to the records, cause this is how we do these things, right? 21 00:03:56,660 --> 00:04:00,920 Of our own Podcorn podcast. And back on the 11th, we did indeed cover. 22 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:06,440 So Sysdig had a threat report as did Buoyant. And that's probably where those service mesh bits come from. 23 00:04:06,540 --> 00:04:10,800 But to be fair to Ben point, right? It is all over the place. I mean, there's loads of these surveys all the time. 24 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,980 There probably has been another one at KubeCon as well, given that there's like a service mesh day. 25 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:24,680 And I'm sure again, security, security and operations for me, the two things, hence that whole ambient mesh piece that everyone wants it for the security, but also if they can't, then use it. 26 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,120 It's no good. So making it easier to use and secure are the two things driving it. 27 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:32,380 But you know what? I did remember what I'd seen. Okay. Sorry about that. 28 00:04:32,380 --> 00:04:40,360 So I remember what I'd seen. The thing I'd seen was trends. So, so for day zero, you know, folks are sort of starting to turn up to the conference. 29 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,020 People are asking them questions about, you know, what, what are the things you wanted to see? 30 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:49,340 What are the things you wanted to spend more time thinking about and getting interesting in interested in? 31 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:55,920 And two things that stood out for me were supply chains and supply chain security specifically. 32 00:04:57,140 --> 00:05:08,420 And the other one was as part of that, probably related to that was S-bombs, S-bombs being very top of agenda this year for a lot of folks. 33 00:05:08,420 --> 00:05:21,740 And that reminded me that Memonetti's Twitter handle, memes of Kubernetes, they had this, they had this bingo grid of, you know, things that people will be asking. 34 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,080 So if you haven't seen it, go check it out on Twitter. 35 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:37,080 That was very funny as well, just for a bit of levity, but it, it, it, it, it involved, there was also S-bombs on that chart, which, you know, ties in very closely with, I think what people are saying they're interested in. 36 00:05:37,580 --> 00:05:43,800 Well, I, I started, I listened to a lot of books nowadays and I started listening to this one about, about Achilles of all people. 37 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:53,780 And, uh, so now, Memonetti's, like, I, I was trying to remember which, which Greek king who was fighting the Trojans is that, and I'm not sure, I'm not sure that's one. 38 00:05:54,020 --> 00:06:05,020 Well, we'll see if, uh, a Kubernetes comes up, king Kubernetes and, and, you know, his, Patrokinetis probably is the name of his son or something, but we'll, we'll find out. 39 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:16,600 Well, uh, you know, uh, speaking of conferences, so in about, about a week or so, uh, over a week, don't worry if anyone's listening, I actually have it in my calendar and my flights are booked. 40 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:32,440 I know when, when it is, I just don't have it in my mind, but, uh, I, I'm going to be at, uh, Explore EU and, uh, I have a talk that, uh, uh, I'm looking forward to with some of our friends from Mercedes, Thomas and, uh, Roland. 41 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:38,700 And they, and Thomas has keynoted at, um, at both the CF summit and, uh, SpringOne, uh, recently. 42 00:06:38,940 --> 00:06:46,980 And, uh, we have another one of our colleagues, Darren, somehow we're going to pull off a four person talk, but I think, I think we've got it made. 43 00:06:47,020 --> 00:06:47,760 I think we'll do it. 44 00:06:48,260 --> 00:06:54,680 Uh, I've been taking what I call the microservices approach to giving a multi-person talk, which we are, we are very decoupled. 45 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:59,600 We've got little components and we've minimized the decoupling, the decoupling. 46 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:01,420 We've maximized the decoupling. 47 00:07:01,500 --> 00:07:10,740 Anyhow, uh, you know, since, uh, I think, I think we have a subsection of our podcast here called what's up with platform engineering, uh, as, as a concept. 48 00:07:10,740 --> 00:07:22,680 And I think this, uh, as, as such, I think what I, what we've been trying to do with this talk is like Mercedes, uh, has been using, they've been using the Tanzu application service of cloud foundry based thing. 49 00:07:22,860 --> 00:07:26,740 Pivotal cloud founder, it used to be called for like seven years now. 50 00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:30,420 So they have a lot of learnings about what we would call platform engineering. 51 00:07:30,420 --> 00:07:34,160 Now running a platform, thinking about like the developers as customers. 52 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,100 And so it'll be good to, uh, hear from them. 53 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:41,940 And then we have another, uh, someone that works for us now, uh, Darren Rice. 54 00:07:41,940 --> 00:07:47,320 And I'm sure he would want me to anonymize where he used to work, but it was a large bank, a large global bank. 55 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:56,200 And he similarly ran that team or actually, I have no idea if he ran the team, but he was involved in some managerial situation with a platform team. 56 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:57,780 So he'll be talking as well. 57 00:07:57,780 --> 00:08:04,180 Uh, but that, that will be at explore, which is the week after next November, uh, something. 58 00:08:05,260 --> 00:08:07,540 Isn't it seven, six or seventh. 59 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:07,840 Yeah. 60 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:08,540 There you go. 61 00:08:08,660 --> 00:08:13,620 It starts on the Tuesday, Tuesday, a week on a week on Tuesday in Barcelona. 62 00:08:14,060 --> 00:08:16,620 So you can, you can still, you can still go. 63 00:08:16,780 --> 00:08:16,880 Yeah. 64 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:20,640 And I think, I think for folks on a talk, that sounds great. 65 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,580 Can't you get a ping pong table and do like mixed doubles? 66 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:24,860 Oh yes. 67 00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:25,420 Yeah. 68 00:08:25,420 --> 00:08:26,920 You know, maybe do it that way. 69 00:08:27,380 --> 00:08:27,620 Yeah. 70 00:08:28,100 --> 00:08:32,160 You know, there was a, uh, uh, the third, is it the third? 71 00:08:32,260 --> 00:08:36,040 No, the second startup I worked at, they were all into foosball and ping pong. 72 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:37,440 And I was just like the problem. 73 00:08:37,560 --> 00:08:42,100 We were, it was a very short lived startup, but six months was long enough. 74 00:08:43,620 --> 00:08:44,060 Yes. 75 00:08:44,340 --> 00:08:45,400 Well, that was the joke. 76 00:08:45,500 --> 00:08:50,100 Six months was long enough for many of my coworkers there to get really good at foosball. 77 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:50,460 Yeah. 78 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,800 I don't know if you ever have this effect, but like they got so good that I was just like, 79 00:08:53,860 --> 00:08:55,060 no, I'm not going to play with you. 80 00:08:55,260 --> 00:08:56,720 Like I am not interested. 81 00:08:58,020 --> 00:08:58,380 Yeah. 82 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,640 Every visit I ever made to the pivotal office was like that with a ping pong table there. 83 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,500 I would go in once every six months. 84 00:09:04,700 --> 00:09:05,100 Yeah. 85 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:06,120 Absolutely. 86 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:07,240 Creamed. 87 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:07,600 Yeah. 88 00:09:07,740 --> 00:09:13,020 Well, speaking of our platform engineering watch, I think, uh, you, you came across, 89 00:09:13,020 --> 00:09:18,100 uh, like in, in our, our, uh, our news roundup stuff that we all read, Ed, you found like 90 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:21,540 six or seven sort of things worth highlighting, which, which I think was good. 91 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,180 I picked out six or seven. 92 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:24,660 I think I probably found about 50. 93 00:09:25,180 --> 00:09:25,500 Exactly. 94 00:09:25,700 --> 00:09:30,460 There's, there's lots of them, but in particular, uh, there's, there's a working group at the 95 00:09:30,460 --> 00:09:31,120 CNCF. 96 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:32,900 What's going on over there? 97 00:09:33,620 --> 00:09:33,940 Yeah. 98 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,540 Well, I guess it's, I mean, it's everything coming around again, I guess I've got question 99 00:09:37,540 --> 00:09:41,100 for you really related to the fact you've been talking about this for seven years and why 100 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:42,420 it seems to be coming back around. 101 00:09:42,420 --> 00:09:45,920 But I read that and just thought, right, you know, it's a solid thing, right? 102 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:47,020 There's a certain amount of buzz. 103 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:48,020 There's a load of blogs. 104 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,600 People like to talk about the buzzwords, but when you get a working group going, then it's 105 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,320 an, a definite thing going forwards, right? 106 00:09:53,420 --> 00:09:55,640 Standards take years to form all that kind of stuff. 107 00:09:55,980 --> 00:09:56,700 So I saw that. 108 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,480 And actually they've been talking this working group since late 2021, I think. 109 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,300 Um, and I've sort of seen various trends coming, right? 110 00:10:03,420 --> 00:10:07,900 GitOps, operators, pipelines, these things they were watching and saying, where do they fit? 111 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:09,860 How can we work with them? 112 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,480 And they were originally around app delivery. 113 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,740 Um, and they'd sort of been watching and saying, so there's all this stuff that's come up for 114 00:10:16,740 --> 00:10:21,500 automating the creation of infrastructure and there's all this tie into applications, but 115 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:23,840 there is a gap between actually making it work together. 116 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,180 You could now spin up all your infrastructure automatically, but does that automatically 117 00:10:28,180 --> 00:10:29,320 provision with the apps? 118 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:30,600 Is it tied to the apps? 119 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:31,540 All that kind of stuff. 120 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,560 Um, and you know, it's an interesting way of seeing it because they've been two camps 121 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:36,380 previously, right? 122 00:10:36,540 --> 00:10:38,260 Two different teams, all that kind of stuff. 123 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,700 And again, it all ties into DevOps, cloud native. 124 00:10:41,580 --> 00:10:44,340 So it's interesting that they're now looking at how can you do that? 125 00:10:44,340 --> 00:10:48,940 And then, you know, they're including backstage, cross-plane, dapper, a whole load of things, 126 00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:51,720 which are all very much sort of, of the now, shall we say? 127 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:56,380 Um, so it's going to be interesting to see how that sort of ties together, maybe from a more 128 00:10:56,380 --> 00:10:57,800 structured perspective. 129 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,540 Yeah, I'm, I'm eager to put it on the pile of things that I really should read that I'm 130 00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:08,820 looking forward to reading that will not be read, uh, in a timely fashion, but no, it was 131 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:13,820 fun because I, I was reading through the, uh, the, the kind of the post on it and, uh, it 132 00:11:13,820 --> 00:11:19,440 looks like they have a good optimistic take on, on pulling all this stuff together and kind 133 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:20,580 of figuring out what's going on there. 134 00:11:20,580 --> 00:11:24,940 And I was thinking like, and there, there's, there's some, there's some section in it called 135 00:11:24,940 --> 00:11:27,040 like, uh, Kubernetes for everything. 136 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,060 And I was thinking, all right, maybe what we can start calling platform engineering is 137 00:11:31,060 --> 00:11:32,200 DevOps for Kubernetes. 138 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,340 I think that's what we're talking about here. 139 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,380 And, uh, I'll see if that sticks and isn't too much of a jerky way of phrasing it. 140 00:11:38,380 --> 00:11:42,580 Cause you know, I'm trying not to be the old man yells at platform engineering, uh, type 141 00:11:42,580 --> 00:11:43,980 type of thing here. 142 00:11:44,180 --> 00:11:48,160 I think, I think there's maybe something, uh, exciting to, to do there. 143 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,940 So why do you quickly, I, this is just me being generally curious, right? 144 00:11:51,940 --> 00:11:55,140 And hopefully the audience find interesting as well, but why do you think it's sort of come 145 00:11:55,140 --> 00:11:58,520 around again so much, given that, you know, you have been talking platform as a product 146 00:11:58,520 --> 00:11:59,480 for seven, eight years. 147 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:00,600 It was everything pivotal did. 148 00:12:00,700 --> 00:12:02,040 Why is it coming around again? 149 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,420 Is it just because there's so many more tools and that Kubernetes is a new platform. 150 00:12:05,420 --> 00:12:08,060 So everyone's discovering it all over again for Kubernetes? 151 00:12:08,780 --> 00:12:12,420 You know, I have, I have, I have two, two theories. 152 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,240 And one needs to be informed theory. 153 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:23,520 My first theory is that, so speaking of surveys, uh, well, whatever I won't, I won't back it 154 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:23,920 up with data. 155 00:12:23,980 --> 00:12:25,940 There's plenty of charts. 156 00:12:26,260 --> 00:12:27,420 I would, I don't know if it's data. 157 00:12:27,540 --> 00:12:31,860 There's lots of charts, uh, that show that basically like, you know, Kubernetes is hard 158 00:12:31,860 --> 00:12:36,600 for developers to find value in, to use basically. 159 00:12:36,820 --> 00:12:42,140 And so I think, but then also what you see in the surveys is like, like three years ago, 160 00:12:42,140 --> 00:12:47,260 operations people were kind of like struggling to stand up Kubernetes and do things with it. 161 00:12:47,260 --> 00:12:47,520 Right. 162 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,300 Cause it's, it's hard to install a cloud basically. 163 00:12:52,460 --> 00:12:57,580 And then not only install a cloud, but install like a, a, a layer on top of a cloud, whatever. 164 00:12:57,780 --> 00:13:03,800 So I think like, I'm not going to say everyone has that figured out, but that's figured out 165 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,280 well enough that like, it's not as big a deal as it used to be. 166 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:12,700 And then you're like, you know, my, my funny little story on this is like, all right, so 167 00:13:12,700 --> 00:13:14,760 you do all that work and then you have a blinking cursor. 168 00:13:15,460 --> 00:13:16,300 That's what you've done. 169 00:13:16,300 --> 00:13:20,340 Or, or as people our age would call it a dial tone, which I don't think anyone knows what 170 00:13:20,340 --> 00:13:21,260 that is anymore. 171 00:13:21,260 --> 00:13:22,780 Cause there is no dial tone. 172 00:13:23,180 --> 00:13:27,760 Uh, and so like, so we should stop using that metaphor in tech unless we're talking to a 173 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,040 veteran it people. 174 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,920 Uh, but so then you have a blinking cursor and your developers need to do something. 175 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,780 And then you encounter like what we see now is like, you know, Kubernetes is hard for application 176 00:13:37,780 --> 00:13:38,280 developers. 177 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:43,600 And so you need like a return to the operations people, like figuring out how to build this 178 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,340 stuff up and make it easier for developers. 179 00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:51,220 And that naturally flows into like, you know, whatever, whatever platform engineering is like, 180 00:13:51,220 --> 00:13:52,480 that's a perfect match for that. 181 00:13:52,480 --> 00:14:00,020 And then I think the second thing is like, there, uh, there's this notion over the past 182 00:14:00,020 --> 00:14:06,620 two years, one and a half year, like cumulative of now, is that how you phrase that? 183 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,500 Including now from this date, two years back. 184 00:14:10,020 --> 00:14:10,540 You know what you mean? 185 00:14:11,060 --> 00:14:11,320 Yeah. 186 00:14:11,420 --> 00:14:11,640 Yeah. 187 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:18,540 Of, of like internal development platforms with, with no portals and portal is always an 188 00:14:18,540 --> 00:14:20,220 unfortunate word to use nowadays. 189 00:14:20,460 --> 00:14:22,780 That, that is like, uh, that's a word for you. 190 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:23,380 Are you in an intranet? 191 00:14:23,940 --> 00:14:24,380 Yes. 192 00:14:24,540 --> 00:14:24,940 Yes. 193 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:31,540 And, and, and, uh, I think that kind of emerged maybe last calendar year as a thing. 194 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,660 And I think it might, and then also backstage emerged as a thing. 195 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,980 And then several large companies started using backstage, which is, you know, documented on 196 00:14:40,980 --> 00:14:45,300 the backstage sites somewhere like American airlines uses it and all sorts of other people 197 00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:47,860 making these internal development platforms. 198 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,400 And so Gartner in February, there's a blog post they had, and they released a paper, which 199 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,600 we have licensed and you can find a link to it. 200 00:14:54,660 --> 00:15:00,160 If you go to tonsutalk.com writing up IDPs and stuff like that, um, which is actually, 201 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:01,200 it's a wonderful paper. 202 00:15:01,340 --> 00:15:01,820 It's great. 203 00:15:02,140 --> 00:15:08,260 Like all Gartner papers are wonderful, but this one is wonderful in the sense of it's actionable 204 00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:12,280 and like detailed and like has screenshots of American airlines thing. 205 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:18,220 So it's, it's, it's interesting and informative, not just like, you know, whatever there's all 206 00:15:18,220 --> 00:15:19,880 sorts of audiences for Gartner material. 207 00:15:20,060 --> 00:15:20,980 It's good stuff. 208 00:15:21,260 --> 00:15:26,340 Uh, but, uh, so that came out and then I haven't looked at the funding history of this, 209 00:15:26,340 --> 00:15:30,740 but you have like humanitech and I forget if ambassador does this, but there's a couple 210 00:15:30,740 --> 00:15:38,260 of startups that have like really good DevRel people and probably really good tech marketing 211 00:15:38,260 --> 00:15:38,720 people. 212 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,800 And they have just marked, this is a, probably a family friendly podcast. 213 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,520 So they have just marketed the crap out of this idea. 214 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,260 And then eventually they rolled it into platform con, which was in July. 215 00:15:49,620 --> 00:15:55,580 And then all, so if you go look at the people who are in platform con, it's all the DevOps 216 00:15:55,580 --> 00:15:59,720 crowd, the, the crowd that's out, the DevOps, some SRE people, the crowd that's been there. 217 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:04,160 And so it's almost like, you know, that was a comfortable new, like umbrella to put things 218 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,980 under and now you're just off to the races, right? 219 00:16:06,980 --> 00:16:10,560 So it's kind of a, a, a comforting embrace of this new concept. 220 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,460 And I mean, I, I, this is my totally theoretic thing. 221 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:21,060 My, my theory is that maybe the notion of, uh, of, of internal development portals, or 222 00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:26,040 as you say, an intranet, uh, like is, do y'all have this phrase over there? 223 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:30,780 The, uh, you know, the dog that caught the bus, like I, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's 224 00:16:30,780 --> 00:16:34,520 one of these things where like, I think, you know, like a dog's always chasing after a 225 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:35,600 bus and never catches it. 226 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:40,540 And then like when the dog finally catches the bus, the dog's like, oh, what do I do? 227 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:41,560 Right. 228 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,760 And I, and I, so I think like this idea of platform engineering became like a super, super 229 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,600 set of just like internal development portals. 230 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,580 And now it's basically DevOps for Kubernetes. 231 00:16:51,580 --> 00:16:57,100 And then my, my third theory is more of a conspiracy one, which is just like, well, I've kind of 232 00:16:57,100 --> 00:17:01,760 already mentioned, it's just like a really successful marketing effort, which, but I don't know. 233 00:17:01,980 --> 00:17:03,800 I I'm not really sure what it is. 234 00:17:04,860 --> 00:17:10,580 Well, just to clarify, the dog that caught the bus is now how we select our prime ministers. 235 00:17:14,060 --> 00:17:16,560 So, so we're very familiar with it. 236 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:25,440 Uh, you know, the dog runs after the bus and then the bus stops and then the dog goes, okay, 237 00:17:26,100 --> 00:17:26,860 I caught the bus. 238 00:17:27,060 --> 00:17:27,480 You know what? 239 00:17:28,020 --> 00:17:28,380 Yeah. 240 00:17:28,740 --> 00:17:28,940 Yeah. 241 00:17:28,940 --> 00:17:29,580 I don't know. 242 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:30,640 Get off the bus. 243 00:17:31,220 --> 00:17:32,120 That's, that's funny. 244 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:33,380 Leave the bus. 245 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:34,780 Let's leave the bus now. 246 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:36,660 I've spent too long on this bus. 247 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:38,360 Yeah. 248 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,480 And, and I, I mean, I think like, I mean, I've, I've spent a lot of time in the past month 249 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,020 now, like trying to figure out platform engineering. 250 00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:49,200 And I think I was just talking with someone yesterday who is, they're, they're typically 251 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,980 a more dismissive person than I am. 252 00:17:51,140 --> 00:17:57,040 And they're just like, ah, it's just DevOps, you know, old DevOps in no, is it the phrase 253 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:58,340 new wine and old bottles? 254 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,240 Wouldn't you want to put, yeah, you would want to put new wine in old bottles, right? 255 00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:06,780 Because therefore it would seem more expensive, but isn't the phrase like old wine, I, I, whatever, 256 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,480 you know, it's just recycled. 257 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,860 And, uh, this is like the idiom edition of this podcast. 258 00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:15,000 Uh, but yeah, I mean, I think it's just recycled. 259 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:20,660 I think, I think it is like, I think there's some like, uh, value and some rebooting to 260 00:18:20,660 --> 00:18:23,680 like kind of subsuming and evolving the DevOps idea. 261 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,360 And, and to, to your question way back when, uh, in my ramble here. 262 00:18:28,940 --> 00:18:29,420 Yeah. 263 00:18:29,420 --> 00:18:35,020 I think, I think the platform as a product people are trying to drag all of that notion into 264 00:18:35,020 --> 00:18:35,960 platform engineering. 265 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,720 And so like, you know, our, our, our old pal, Paula Kennedy has several talks of that 266 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,980 in that community and, you know, basically introducing product management into it. 267 00:18:44,980 --> 00:18:56,320 So, and when you said earlier that some folks seem to prefer describing it as DevOps for 268 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,300 Kubernetes rather than platform engineering. 269 00:18:58,760 --> 00:18:59,620 Oh, that was just me. 270 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:00,920 I just made up that phrase. 271 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:01,580 You made it. 272 00:19:01,660 --> 00:19:03,640 So you, you don't use that regularly. 273 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:04,180 It's not. 274 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:04,820 No, no, no, no. 275 00:19:04,820 --> 00:19:06,960 I, I, I thought of that like two hours ago. 276 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,800 Uh, cause, cause I, I was reading the, the, the blog posts from the CNCF about their working 277 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:12,180 group. 278 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,500 And, uh, there's a heading there that says Kubernetes for everything. 279 00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:20,680 And, uh, you know, the, you know, part of the other thing, like I was saying in my platform 280 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:26,240 engineering, like Fox molder analysis there is like, uh, yeah. 281 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,120 Like I think it all involves Kubernetes, right? 282 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:33,800 Like I think everyone more or less who talks about it, except for the hand waving PowerPoint 283 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,020 people like me, it's always about Kubernetes at the bottom. 284 00:19:37,020 --> 00:19:41,860 Uh, and so like that's therefore to be jokey about it. 285 00:19:41,860 --> 00:19:43,500 It's just like DevOps for Kubernetes. 286 00:19:44,060 --> 00:19:45,200 Uh, I see. 287 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:51,480 So the joke is now explained, but, but the platform is a product thing. 288 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:56,940 And the fact that it's evolved into platform engineering, I mean, are you hearing that folks 289 00:19:56,940 --> 00:20:01,320 are really comfortable with that, that, that folks are very comfortable thinking about platform 290 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:02,980 engineering, they know what it describes. 291 00:20:02,980 --> 00:20:05,360 They can understand the personas involved. 292 00:20:05,980 --> 00:20:06,940 I mean, I don't, I don't know. 293 00:20:06,980 --> 00:20:11,600 I haven't, I haven't gone out and talked with like a whole bunch of, as, as you would say, 294 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:20,040 uh, end users, but it feels like the, the, the thought Lords and ladies and, and, uh, other, 295 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:27,180 other honorific pronouns, uh, like aren't don't, I think they're generally cool with it. 296 00:20:27,420 --> 00:20:29,200 Like it, it seems to make sense. 297 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,960 And I think, uh, yeah, I mean, to be a bit gripey, right? 298 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,580 Like, I mean, we have, we have, uh, lots of white papers and presentations and practices 299 00:20:38,580 --> 00:20:45,600 about, about this type of thing with, um, cloud foundry based platforms and other ways of doing 300 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:45,960 things. 301 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,600 And, and it's, it's pretty much the same practices, right? 302 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,740 Like if you go back and read, I think our platform as a product white paper was actually 303 00:20:52,740 --> 00:20:59,740 revised in like 2021, pretty, pretty recently, but if you go back and read it, it's more or 304 00:20:59,740 --> 00:21:04,400 less, less the same thing just with like less tools talking, right? 305 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,200 Like, like it's, it's more focused on the process or culture as they say. 306 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,920 Engineering is any platform, right? 307 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,780 But actually I think this current version of it is sort of the more recent one in a year 308 00:21:13,780 --> 00:21:16,540 or so is, as you said, all Kubernetes, I quite like that. 309 00:21:16,540 --> 00:21:18,460 You know, work DevOps for Kubernetes. 310 00:21:18,460 --> 00:21:21,580 Cause actually DevOps been around for forever, SRE has been around forever. 311 00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:25,140 But if someone now says to me platform engineering, cause I spent my life looking at all these 312 00:21:25,140 --> 00:21:28,960 blogs and everything else, I assume they are referring to the more recent, right. 313 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,480 You mean doing all of this on a Kubernetes platform and we're talking internal developer 314 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:34,340 platforms and so on. 315 00:21:34,340 --> 00:21:38,100 And it's that's just that terminology that says, right, we've got a common part of terminology. 316 00:21:38,620 --> 00:21:42,680 It could have been anything seven years ago, 14 years ago, platform engineering could have 317 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:48,160 been a generic discipline, but this seems to refer to that set of tools, that part of the industry. 318 00:21:48,740 --> 00:21:48,860 Yeah. 319 00:21:49,220 --> 00:21:49,460 Yeah. 320 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,200 In that sense, at least it's useful for me. 321 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,260 Someone says that I'm like, right, we're talking about the same thing. 322 00:21:53,820 --> 00:21:53,980 Yeah. 323 00:21:54,260 --> 00:21:59,160 And I, and I think, I think part of what's palpably changed, particularly over the last sort 324 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:06,080 of 24 months or so is the level of customization that's now possible in that area. 325 00:22:06,220 --> 00:22:12,300 If you, if we think, if we are thinking back to previous platforms, they weren't that customizable, 326 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:12,720 right? 327 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,300 You couldn't change the supply chain to a huge degree. 328 00:22:16,420 --> 00:22:19,080 You sort of got what you got out of the box and that was it. 329 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:27,220 So the fact that it's more customizable now also gives you more to engineer with, you know, 330 00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:29,020 there's more choice to be made, right? 331 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:30,060 Yeah, yeah. 332 00:22:30,180 --> 00:22:36,120 No, I think that's, that's a good, that's a good point is that the, the, I mean, I guess 333 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:36,800 it's intentional. 334 00:22:36,980 --> 00:22:40,740 It's always hard to know with Kubernetes what's intentional or not, you know, from six years 335 00:22:40,740 --> 00:22:48,040 ago versus what, what the deal is now, just, just like any technology, but like, yeah, the 336 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:53,820 intention is to have much more configurability, ironically, many more options. 337 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,160 So that's a good point. 338 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:56,040 Yeah. 339 00:22:56,100 --> 00:23:00,060 But, you know, back to what you're saying, Ed, like, I think, you know, you are well-trained 340 00:23:00,060 --> 00:23:05,840 as a technologist to always be technology, technologically agnostic about methodologies 341 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:06,480 and theories. 342 00:23:07,060 --> 00:23:12,660 And in this case, I think it's one of those who are like, sure, you could do like bare metal 343 00:23:12,660 --> 00:23:19,560 platform engineering and you could also like build a car from scratch, like, or, or like 344 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,540 probably in the majority of cases, like if you were to look at the, whether it's a pie 345 00:23:24,540 --> 00:23:28,800 or a donut, like it's mostly going to be one color and that color is going to be Kubernetes 346 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,800 and there's going to be a few other things there. 347 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:36,540 So it's sort of like, yeah, I mean, there's a little crack in the donut up here, but let's 348 00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:38,100 just not focus on that. 349 00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:44,540 And, and, and that's, you know, when I, I wrote like a matching my style here, like a lengthy, 350 00:23:44,540 --> 00:23:48,900 very unedited newsletter edition where I was consternating about platform engineering. 351 00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:50,200 And that was my main suggestion. 352 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,700 I think from there is just like, you should just call it that this is about Kubernetes and 353 00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:55,860 just like move on. 354 00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:56,180 Right. 355 00:23:56,180 --> 00:24:01,820 Cause that's going to save you a lot of time as, as far as like, it's going to save you 356 00:24:01,820 --> 00:24:06,760 a lot of that one slide where you're like, well, it doesn't really matter what technology 357 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,140 you're using and you can do this, that, and the other, but we're going to go ahead and 358 00:24:10,140 --> 00:24:12,240 use Kubernetes as the thing that we talk about. 359 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,200 Like, I'm sure y'all have read these tech books forever. 360 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,860 They're just like, these principles can apply to anything, but we're going to use this exact 361 00:24:17,860 --> 00:24:21,740 version of this exact framework from this, uh, this exact place to illustrate everything. 362 00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:24,200 It's a natural circuit breaker. 363 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,200 It just, it's like, okay, I'm just going to break the circuit here. 364 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:28,980 There's too much, there's too much flowing in. 365 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,940 Let's just do this. 366 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:31,220 Yeah. 367 00:24:31,620 --> 00:24:35,980 Well, uh, I think that's your platform engineering check-in for this episode. 368 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:37,360 Good, good segment. 369 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,780 I, I think, I think, uh, you know, in addition to checking out that blog post, if it's, uh, 370 00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:46,100 it's well worth your time to, uh, go check out that Gartner piece that, that we have 371 00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:50,720 licensed because I think it's a, what I really like about that piece among other things, but 372 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:57,800 one part that I think is you won't really find is there's a, a capability breakdown, like 373 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,340 the functions of a platform and what they do in there somewhere. 374 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,940 Um, and the only thing that comes close to that is like, uh, you know, charity majors had 375 00:25:04,940 --> 00:25:09,720 that post a couple of weeks ago where she has a table and, and those are two good artifacts 376 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,400 kind of like listing things out there. 377 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:17,380 But, uh, if you go to tanzutalk.com, you can, uh, find a link to that or just search 378 00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:23,680 for like Tanzu Gartner internal development platform paper, and maybe it shows up. 379 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:24,340 Who knows? 380 00:25:24,340 --> 00:25:30,680 Well, also since last time, uh, Google had their big conference and I think I forget the 381 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,900 exact number, but I think, and I really liked this blog post, so I'm not making fun of it, 382 00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:39,040 but I think they had a 143 cloud, cloud related announcements. 383 00:25:39,380 --> 00:25:45,880 Now, 10 or 12 of those were customer references and partnership announcements, which I also 384 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:46,440 appreciated. 385 00:25:46,540 --> 00:25:50,640 In fact, I, I sent a message to one of our people who kind of is involved in that. 386 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,140 It's like, Ooh, we should do this style for our conferences. 387 00:25:53,140 --> 00:25:58,180 I mean, even if it's 143 things, it was one sentence on each and it was, uh, it was nice. 388 00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:03,620 It was a good post, but what, uh, what, what, what were, what were you two most interested 389 00:26:03,620 --> 00:26:04,780 in, uh, from there? 390 00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:08,000 I'll start with you, Ed, since I know you've actually looked over things. 391 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:09,020 Yeah. 392 00:26:09,020 --> 00:26:13,620 So I was, I guess focused on their sort of cloud native side of things, right? 393 00:26:13,620 --> 00:26:16,680 I mean, it's always interesting when you watch these big ones, because there was Google 394 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,820 cloud next, but there was also Microsoft Ignite and both conferences obviously cover the 395 00:26:20,820 --> 00:26:24,140 whole amount of the cloud, which is just like you said, a huge amount of stuff. 396 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,860 And there's tons of it of which I've absolutely no knowledge, even though I'm a techie guy, 397 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,780 it's, you know, when they get into the depth of either AI or ML, some of the low, no loco 398 00:26:32,780 --> 00:26:36,840 platforms, I don't know them enough to really know what the announcements are about, whether 399 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:42,540 it would matter how much they are, but certainly for the cloud native stuff, they had, um, some 400 00:26:42,540 --> 00:26:44,540 nice intros on Anthos. 401 00:26:44,540 --> 00:26:50,300 So kudos to, um, Richard Strother, who did a, I thought a really nice demo of how you can 402 00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:50,920 use Anthos. 403 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,240 And it was all, it was the perfect blend of sort of some technology and how it affects the actual 404 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:00,640 business and a use case, um, and tied together sort of a bunch of their products, um, was just 405 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,200 very nicely given presentation. 406 00:27:02,340 --> 00:27:05,600 I actually liked the whole way that Google cloud was put together. 407 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:06,960 It was all quite clean. 408 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,820 I didn't see any big celebrity endorsement sections, a load of things that are sort of bugbears 409 00:27:11,820 --> 00:27:12,140 for me. 410 00:27:12,140 --> 00:27:16,320 And it just seemed like quite a nice piece, this thing it's nicely split up. 411 00:27:16,660 --> 00:27:20,420 So their, their keynotes tended to be, you know, here are 10 things you need to know 412 00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:23,660 from 10 different product managers, maybe in each person give one pitch. 413 00:27:23,780 --> 00:27:28,240 I predict, and they made some prediction about what would happen in five years, then tied 414 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,400 in their products to what Google were doing about that. 415 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,220 But it made it really quite easy to, to absorb things. 416 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,180 Like you said, they've got a post saying, here's all the things we announced for the sentence 417 00:27:38,180 --> 00:27:38,680 each, right? 418 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:39,500 I can scan those. 419 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,660 And there's a link to more detail for each one. 420 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:43,400 And incidentally, Microsoft did the same thing. 421 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:44,580 They've done that for a few years. 422 00:27:44,620 --> 00:27:45,580 They have a book of news. 423 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:48,340 And if you actually don't catch the conference, we don't have time. 424 00:27:48,420 --> 00:27:50,280 You can just go to that one blog post. 425 00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:54,340 Everything that gets announced is in one place and it's got links to dive into everything 426 00:27:54,340 --> 00:27:54,640 else. 427 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:55,920 And it's so nice. 428 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:56,800 Yeah. 429 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:57,200 Yeah. 430 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,360 Cause I, you know, I, I want to consume all that stuff. 431 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,460 And I'm at you, I think I will watch every session, right? 432 00:28:01,540 --> 00:28:04,720 You know, a lot of times I don't, but I do at least want to scan that list and 433 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,460 go, right, which ones do I definitely want to earmark time for and make sure I do 434 00:28:08,460 --> 00:28:15,460 watch and just instead of having to try and trawl 15 different sources or RSS, one 435 00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:16,940 post, there it is job done. 436 00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:22,320 I mean, I suppose we do a little bit of this here, but like I, every time I see our 437 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,280 internal wrap-ups of things, I always think, oh, we should just publish that. 438 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,300 I mean, you know, minus the confidential information that we want to keep to 439 00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:34,500 ourselves and the hundreds of people who receive the email, but nonetheless, like 440 00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:38,440 that would be, it'd be a good newsletter to stitch together a lot of the 441 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:39,880 work that you do, Ed. 442 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,440 And then also we have another thing that's like the weekly roundup of all the content 443 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,040 we produced. 444 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,340 And that would be, that would be a hell of an email that, but, uh, it sure would be 445 00:28:48,340 --> 00:28:50,120 useful to have all of that out there. 446 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,920 There is always a lot, but, um, yeah, the other thing, they released a new security thing 447 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,080 going back to that service mission. 448 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:56,440 This isn't service mesh related. 449 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,500 Um, I don't actually have the actual name. 450 00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:03,180 Let me see if I can get up the blog post, but it was, um, software delivery shield. 451 00:29:03,180 --> 00:29:03,500 There you go. 452 00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:05,180 A nice enough name for it, I guess. 453 00:29:05,180 --> 00:29:08,900 Um, which for them is, yeah, they've done a good job by the looks of things of stitching 454 00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:13,720 together, sort of adding insecurity at various steps through their software supply chain using 455 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,720 various Google cloud services. 456 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,800 Um, so it covers cloud run, it covers things like GKE, um, and it's sort of, you know, the 457 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,400 vulnerability assessments, but it also, it will take you through from source code. 458 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,520 So it'll scan, scan workloads inside Kubernetes clusters and things, but it's got code scanning 459 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,840 when you're committing your code. 460 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,020 It's got various sort of scanning in different runtimes, like I said, so cloud run, or if 461 00:29:35,020 --> 00:29:38,960 you're running it in GKE, but just aims to pull it together into a slightly more holistic. 462 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,660 Do you have confidence in your supply chain? 463 00:29:42,180 --> 00:29:43,160 So again, same sort of stuff. 464 00:29:43,220 --> 00:29:46,060 A lot of people are focusing on this is their version, I guess, right? 465 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,820 If you're all in on Google cloud, this is probably a great thing to have. 466 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,780 Um, it's not going to work for you if you're not all in their cloud, I guess. 467 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,180 Um, but again, look like it was, you know, it was well presented. 468 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,220 It's the spot, I guess, everyone is focusing on at the minute cloud security. 469 00:30:00,380 --> 00:30:05,400 So that one, some of the Anthos pieces, sort of some new additions in there, none of them 470 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,820 sort of ground shaking, none of them change what it does, but just tweaks and improvements 471 00:30:08,820 --> 00:30:09,380 here and there. 472 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,120 Um, those are the sort of things that stood out from that one. 473 00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:16,580 And there were some, Ignite had a few good ones as well, but anyone else see anything 474 00:30:16,580 --> 00:30:18,720 at Google before I move on to the Ignite stuff? 475 00:30:19,180 --> 00:30:24,160 Well, I, I did take a slightly deeper look at the, uh, software delivery shield that you 476 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:29,160 were just talking about, Ed, and it did have some very commendable, uh, parts to it. 477 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:29,340 Yeah. 478 00:30:29,380 --> 00:30:30,320 It looked really interesting. 479 00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:32,960 There was, there was cloud-based IDEs, for example. 480 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:39,080 So, you know, no need for sort of a local developer environment or sharing data locally with, with 481 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,980 developers, which is, you know, um, cause for concern for folks like, uh, last pass, for 482 00:30:44,980 --> 00:30:49,180 example, you just recently had a developer environment that was compromised. 483 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,200 Uh, so, you know, it sort of helps, uh, helps with the sort of security aspects of some of 484 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:54,420 that. 485 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,400 And then, uh, the way that it was integrated into a supply chain was good. 486 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:06,840 I also liked the fact that they'd, um, said they'd looked at the top 250 open source project, 487 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,540 um, dependencies and sort of created a curated list of those. 488 00:31:11,540 --> 00:31:17,120 And they were going to continually scan them and make sure that they were, um, uh, you 489 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,220 know, as free as possible of vulnerabilities. 490 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,840 And they'd added a new dashboard to sort of show some of that vulnerability, which is very 491 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,700 similar to the security dashboard in, um, in terms of application platform, I thought. 492 00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:35,820 So, so yeah, it's, it was, uh, it was a nice presentation that one, and it had quite a lot 493 00:31:35,820 --> 00:31:37,460 of good detail on it as well. 494 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:38,240 Yeah. 495 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,960 So I didn't quite like the naming to be fair while we're having a love fest. 496 00:31:41,060 --> 00:31:45,300 You know, I just find software shield seems to just work in my head as a nice, that's what 497 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:46,400 you're actually trying to do. 498 00:31:46,940 --> 00:31:51,980 Um, and yeah, I had something else to mention there that went straight out of my head afterwards 499 00:31:51,980 --> 00:31:54,040 when you were talking, I was like, oh yeah, that was a good point. 500 00:31:54,140 --> 00:31:55,300 Anyway, you might come back. 501 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,240 Well, then you also mentioned Ignite Microsoft's conference and, uh, it looks, it looks like 502 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:07,080 they, uh, you know, are, are like, like all of us in this field trying to figure out like 503 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,060 templates or kind of baseline things, sort of like the, uh, you know, back to the helping 504 00:32:11,060 --> 00:32:17,120 the application developers out, having the, uh, having a starter, uh, for, for various like 505 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:18,640 parts of infrastructure management. 506 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:19,920 Yeah. 507 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,220 So they announced Azure deployment environments. 508 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,420 Um, and I haven't played with too much of their sort of previous ones. 509 00:32:25,420 --> 00:32:30,560 So they did have something as your dev test labs, which kind of was similar in that it 510 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,880 was aiming to let you spin up a full environment, right? 511 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,560 So create yourself a dev test QA, whatever, and try and then keep them in lockstep with 512 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,040 a production and again, all done through code, but it was all still based on VMs, that sort 513 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:42,860 of first iteration. 514 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,320 And obviously a lot of the cloud stuff you can do infrastructure as code, but it still ends 515 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,800 up being a bit piecemeal or you have to write scripts and code to kind of string together, 516 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:53,280 creating all the bits and pieces. 517 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,560 So this is them just productizing it a little better and saying, right, this is going to 518 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,320 be an aim that will string together neatly in theory, sort of any Azure service and let 519 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,120 you say, I need one of them, two of them, three of them, put them all together like this, 520 00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:08,580 deploy one, deploy two, deploy four. 521 00:33:08,980 --> 00:33:11,300 Um, and interestingly, they've also got, what was it? 522 00:33:11,540 --> 00:33:11,860 Devbox. 523 00:33:11,980 --> 00:33:13,280 I think they talked about that briefly. 524 00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:16,540 Um, Ben, which was a bit like, that's what I was going to mention just now when you said 525 00:33:16,540 --> 00:33:17,920 it was the idea of cloud IDs. 526 00:33:18,340 --> 00:33:23,340 So again, a secure kind of, I guess, developer environment with guardrails. 527 00:33:23,340 --> 00:33:24,860 So you can predefine it in advance. 528 00:33:24,940 --> 00:33:25,740 This is what you can have. 529 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:26,640 This is what you can't have. 530 00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:26,820 Right. 531 00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:27,940 Spin one up job done. 532 00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:33,060 Um, and all that they're now building all this kind of into Azure deployment environments 533 00:33:33,060 --> 00:33:36,440 in theory, in the long run right now, it only does Azure templates. 534 00:33:36,540 --> 00:33:41,180 So arm templates, but they want to make it flexible so that it can work with Terraform or, you 535 00:33:41,180 --> 00:33:44,280 know, presumably whichever languages and frameworks are popular. 536 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,900 So you could use those to spin up better development environments. 537 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,300 So again, as you said, all targeting and trying to make things easier for developers, they obviously 538 00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:54,180 recognize that it's just difficult with a minute. 539 00:33:54,380 --> 00:33:58,420 Developers have got this, you know, context overload of having to learn 50,000 things and 540 00:33:58,420 --> 00:33:59,060 they can't do it. 541 00:33:59,420 --> 00:34:01,880 You've got to take some away and let them get back to what they're good at. 542 00:34:02,380 --> 00:34:06,640 You know, that, that reminds me when I was looking through those, uh, 143 things from, 543 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,040 uh, from the Google cloud stuff, it, it made me realize, and this is probably what 544 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:16,040 always go on, but just how much infrastructure stuff there still is in cloud. 545 00:34:16,180 --> 00:34:19,560 Like, you know, we're more or less focused on developers. 546 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,100 And so, so we think about that, but you scroll through there and it's just like so many things 547 00:34:24,100 --> 00:34:27,560 that when I read, I'm like, wow, this is really boring, but like, you know, because 548 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,440 I'm an application person, but it's just like networking things like sizes of compute and 549 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,080 like on and on and on. 550 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:39,100 And, and like, uh, there's still so much of that there for, for all these people to, uh, 551 00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:41,660 all the cloud people do evolve, which I don't know. 552 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:42,380 That's kind of fun. 553 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,180 I, it reminded me of the, uh, the two thousands. 554 00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:48,820 Remember, remember on the back of every tech magazine, which is another fun thing, like 555 00:34:48,820 --> 00:34:53,600 a dial tone, uh, there was always like, uh, like every now and then Oracle would have some 556 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,120 ad and it would just be like, why, why we're better. 557 00:34:56,240 --> 00:34:59,620 And it would always just be some number next to a big black box. 558 00:34:59,940 --> 00:35:04,040 And, uh, you know, I always looked at those and I would just shrug, like, I don't know 559 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:04,880 what's going on here. 560 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:12,320 It's this one goes to 11, I guess is, is the story with this, but it's, uh, lots of infrastructure 561 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,400 stuff scurrying about all the time. 562 00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:15,660 Yeah. 563 00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:20,080 Well, uh, irrelevant for, you know, forever and ever, except it still isn't someone else 564 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:20,800 builds it for you. 565 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,780 It's all done with code, but you still, someone, someone, somewhere needs to know what it is 566 00:35:24,780 --> 00:35:26,140 and does there need to be more of it? 567 00:35:26,180 --> 00:35:27,340 And do you need to hook it up to that? 568 00:35:27,740 --> 00:35:32,280 Yeah, that, that would, that would be a, that would be a fun, uh, like little, little five 569 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,840 to 10 minute pep talk to give to like beleaguered operations people. 570 00:35:36,140 --> 00:35:40,040 It should just be like, look, every time something comes out, there's tons of infrastructure stuff. 571 00:35:40,220 --> 00:35:41,940 That's you, you're still there. 572 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:43,320 Someone's got to figure this out. 573 00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:47,660 Like no one, you know, developers aren't going to know how to use that and how it'd be cost 574 00:35:47,660 --> 00:35:49,040 effective, be it cost effective. 575 00:35:49,220 --> 00:35:51,520 They still need, uh, all the old stuff there. 576 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:58,140 Well, uh, as a reminder, we, uh, December 6th to 8th, we have SpringOne coming up in 577 00:35:58,140 --> 00:36:03,920 San Francisco and, uh, you know, I, I don't, I don't, I haven't prepared an awesome talk 578 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,460 to go over, but I, I did get a little preview of like what we'll be doing in the keynotes 579 00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:11,520 and, uh, there, there's some fun stuff in there. 580 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:16,920 Uh, that's a great encouraging way of getting people interested. 581 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,060 Don't you think there's fun stuff in there? 582 00:36:19,220 --> 00:36:24,320 Uh, are you going to pay lots of money for that for a bit of fun? 583 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,480 Better than your PlayStation folks. 584 00:36:26,940 --> 00:36:32,880 That's, uh, but you know, there'll be lots of great application development stuff there. 585 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,300 A lot of, as, as we called it in this episode and as being called platform engineering talk, 586 00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:41,060 and then plenty of also just a managerial executive case studies. 587 00:36:41,060 --> 00:36:45,600 But if you go to SpringOne.io, uh, I think a hundred percent of the talks are now posted 588 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:46,600 and you should check that out. 589 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:52,460 And if you want to register, which you should, you can use the code Coté 200 to get $200 off. 590 00:36:52,860 --> 00:36:55,300 Um, and, uh, you know, come check it out. 591 00:36:55,460 --> 00:36:55,920 It should be fun. 592 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,100 Hey, folks should be there on the day that they announce spring boot three. 593 00:37:00,860 --> 00:37:01,360 Really? 594 00:37:01,700 --> 00:37:08,960 I mean, it's, it's going to be a moment because spring boot three brings some pretty big changes 595 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:15,360 and improvements and features that people have been asking for for years, particularly around 596 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,480 native image and how to integrate native image. 597 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,720 It's going to be a seminal moment. 598 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:21,960 So you're going to want to be there. 599 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,680 You're going to want the t-shirt, right? 600 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:25,120 And there's always a t-shirt somewhere. 601 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,560 So, uh, so you're going to want the t-shirt, I think. 602 00:37:28,180 --> 00:37:28,780 Yeah, for sure. 603 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:29,520 All right. 604 00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:30,960 Well, that's it for this episode. 605 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,220 Uh, if you want to get the show notes, you know, links to things we mentioned, download 606 00:37:34,220 --> 00:37:39,680 that, uh, that Gartner paper that goes over, uh, as I think we can also rechristen it developer 607 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:40,460 intranets. 608 00:37:40,980 --> 00:37:46,860 Uh, you can, you can go to tonsutalk.com and find the show notes for this episode and, uh, 609 00:37:46,860 --> 00:37:48,860 click on that and download them and enjoy it. 610 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,380 And with that, we'll see everyone next time. 611 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:50,940 Bye-bye. 612 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:52,040 Bye. 613 00:37:53,180 --> 00:37:53,740 All right. 614 00:37:54,420 --> 00:37:55,340 Well, that was good. 615 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,100 Let me, uh, I'll end the broadcast here. 616 00:37:58,580 --> 00:38:00,220 Goodbye, people watching the stream. 617 00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:01,540 Bye, anyone who's watching. 618 00:38:01,540 --> 00:38:02,080 Or the video. 619 00:38:02,100 --> 00:38:02,960 Enjoyed yourselves. 620 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:04,720 I'm sorry I didn't look at the chat. 621 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,360 I should have looked.