well for our podcast this week you know we stream these things uh as well we have a video version they get uploaded to our vmware tonsu page we're gonna we're gonna try some uh we're gonna push the limits of the audio only format uh ben and that is we're gonna have you share your screen as we talk about the most exciting conference of the year the SpringOne conference which is december 6th to 8th now we're gonna this is this we're gonna kind of move up the expertise level of podcasting where even though we'll have a visual we're going to not rely on it to communicate the vital information that the listeners need but it's it's sort of like you know uh it's sort of like an extra pizza topping that that you can add on optionally if uh if uh that that doesn't work i'm gonna abandon that metaphor and just move on but it is an enhanced enhancement that we can have so for those who don't know this is on youtube so you'll find us on the vmware tanzu youtube channel uh that's where it normally gets posted to right Coté exactly if you just go to tanzutalk.com and you'll find a link to the video and uh and then after we go over a little bit of what's uh going on at SpringOne we'll uh as as we often do hopefully every time uh we'll go over some interesting news items and uh a little bit of stuff the the fun news and trend stuff uh that's that's happening out there but before that so we do have uh coming up this december in san francisco you know i i don't know how many years we've been doing the SpringOne conference but many uh and uh you know as as i i like to say it's got your developer stuff your operations things and then also your um i don't know managerial enterprise architect executive stuff like tales of people uh reprogramming their business and and how they're doing that sort of work and uh this year i i think things have uh been going pretty well as far as the planning uh you know just to get it out of the way i have a talk on on on a new topic uh that i i've been we finally published this i should put a link
2:04to it because i think there's a way at the moment uh where you can download this pdf uh called the legacy trap that my uh co-author mark zartner and i worked on and i don't think you even have to give us your email address it's gate ungated as people say i think maybe there is a support ticket somewhere to put a gate up but until that ticket is in effect you can get it uh for free which you know it is nice but it's also cool to get like credit for uh for uh lead genning and things like that but whatever we have a talk uh that basically is just our overview of of the legacy trap thing and and the premise of that that that talk is basically like here's the methodology that people in in um in uh in tanzu labs and other people have come up with i don't know maybe over the past at least five years to kind of sort out like what you should modernize how to pick things out to modernize and then even if you're going into re-architecting and rewriting some kind of like day or so long processes to go through to kind of get a handle on how would we break up this application and uh kind of start to uh actually modernize it right as as opposed to like i think maybe the classic method of modernization which is like hey developers you should go move this to a new platform and you know not really having a lot of strategic input into it so that will be fun to give with mark and you know i also don't know if i've ever seen mark in person which would be delightful to to see however that is just one talk out of many many uh talks that we have how to escape the legacy track a proven strategy for application modernization i'll let the listeners uh who aren't watching the stream uh play a little game leave us a comment and tell us where you think the colon is in that sentence uh and that'll be a good a good grammar check uh but what's the uh you know what's the structure of the conference that we have here right ben i gave an idea of kind of like three broad topics but how are we uh how are we corralling all these these talks into kind of like tracks and things like that what are the the themes
4:08well i think if you can if you're going to talk about the structure it's important to talk about the structure of the whole thing so the very first thing that happens day zero if you like is the kind of workshop day so there's a lot of workshops on that day we'll come back to that in a second and then uh on the actual um schedule itself if you have a look uh at the breakout session so you click on uh schedule uh up at the top here and then you click on uh breakout sessions for wednesday december the 7th then you can see all the uh breakouts and there are uh one two three four six tracks seven tracks biggest deal i think is the fact that the beginner friendly spring track has returned and will i think it i think it's really popular and i love it because it's the place that i go to first to find out about how to get started with all the new stuff that they're adding into spring so you know if they add a new thing around i don't know observability or metrics or whatever there's usually some sort of talk there that you'll find in the beginner friendly track that will give you all the sort of tips that you need to just get up and running and get started so that's my favorite track by far and this year i know it's bigger than ever so there's a whole bunch of stuff in that particular track and and i guess i guess it's worth i for whatever reason i guess i'm always trying to uh generalize and widen uh the SpringOne conference but like you know as is in the name right there there's a whole lot about the spring framework right so like i think you know if if if you're doing like java development and i think especially like i was talking with someone yesterday about this i don't know what people call enterprise java development anymore but you know java development for business things i i don't know like it's uh it seems like a huge amount of what goes on at spring
6:11one is is catered for uh for those types of developers who just want to you know not just but want to keep up with what's going on in spring in the java world and practices it's a really good developer conference in in that aspect yes i would say it's not tilted towards someone who wants to write minecraft in java uh it's it's more tilted towards someone who wants to you know uh probably works for a business of some kind wants to solve business problems or has a has a particular innovation or or itch that they want to scratch and they want a framework that's going to help them do that with the least toil possible and yet be able to address the sort of broadest range possible so that's where where springs really in its uh in its sweet spot and then uh well there there's also like uh with with the history of the conference there's plenty of things about like you know as as you can see in the topics there'll be some talks about cloud foundry plenty plenty of talks about like operations things like working uh you know doing you know kind of platforms to have another to vague eyes and generalize the term for it right whatever whatever that stack of software you're building up whether it's on top of a cloud foundry or a kubernetes or whatever that your developers then then use to deploy and run their applications yeah there's tons of stuff in here i mean you just click on any one of these and already i'm getting excited so for example there's a there's a talk in the platform and stacks track uh from netflix about how netflix really uses java today now netflix has always been the poster child of things like spring cloud for example so to hear the very latest about how they're still utilizing spring and how they're using it today and how their use of it has changed that's really exciting that would definitely be one that i would probably put on my uh bucket list uh for for SpringOne but then it's not all sort of like beginners and big tech companies either
8:11there's also this intermediate and advanced spring track so if you really already deep in the weeds on something there's probably a talk in here that you'll find really interesting that will help you get even deeper and be able to converse with the the experts who write this stuff i mean let's not forget the folks who are speaking are usually also the ones who are behind the scenes doing an awful lot of the code that gets contributed to the open source spring framework so um there's loads of opportunities to meet folks uh that you'll recognize from um past uh uh advances in spring folks like uh sam brannan there matt rabel and uh josh long and others they're all gonna have talks at SpringOne so i i think uh there's a lot to commend about this there's tons to get excited about so i i over the years i've i've done uh a lot more work than i did this year kind of helping out with the um i don't know like the agile leadership kind of case studies track and uh i've done a little bit of work now an embarrassingly small amount for uh supposed to have been involved more i guess however like like i think you know in in looking at in in that track kind of people telling the stories of what they've been doing uh i think you know what we try to curate in that kind of track are again in kind of like a more you know not although the story of how someone modernized like the minecraft monolith would probably be pretty interesting you know if you there's there's a lot of like you know you've got a extremely mature code base that has a huge user base like revenue they need to worry about and uh changing things you know changing the engines while the plane is flying there probably are a lot of opinions they have to sort through conflicting technology uses based on who they're owned by and what they might want to use like you've probably got everything and then you've got customer data and things to worry about not to mention like a bunch of kids doing stuff so you've got to protect them so that probably would be a
10:13fascinating enterprise use case that would bring in all the things that like a bank insurance company or military would care about maybe we'll try to recruit them for next year however when it comes to those things that they are like in the more the business world uh you know like historically we've had we've had stories um you know there's over the years we've had all sorts of stories from uh like insurance companies militaries banks manufacturers like i'm thinking i was re-watching some from uh the mercedes people from a couple years ago about how they had we didn't by we people didn't use the term platform engineering back then instead we would say platform as a product or just platform but it goes over uh at mercedes like how they came across the need to have a platform kind of identifying why they needed to build a platform to support uh at the time that like the mercedes me application the little app that uh i don't know is your cars app there must be a name for that kind of app all cars have apps now uh but uh how they needed that and kind of like the lessons learned and how they were supporting developers this is all on top of at the time pivotal cloud foundry now tons of application service but there are several talks like that where you know there's the the structure that i like in these stories is basically like our business needed to our organization i'll just say business needed to do something uh and the stack that we had and the way that we use that stack wasn't up for it so we had to put a new stack in place and a new way of doing software in place and it'd be great if i had examples prepared of the talks that we have uh this year for that but there are several in there that i'm looking forward to uh having read over them i i think it's brilliant i'm looking i'm flicking around as people can see if they're following us on youtube you know and just having a look at a few uh a few talks but some of these titles are really good who should use kubernetes yes what a great talk title right oh yes from whitney on my team hopefully she'll bring her giant light board and uh and go over uh you know lightboarding stuff
12:15so there's tons of stuff here but also part of the schedule like i said is the workshops the workshops if you can get signed up for the workshops which do have a limited number of places but if you can get signed up for them you are going to have a really good time for example better path to production with spring boot instructors josh long at tiffany jernigan i mean you can't get better instructions on that uh from the right from better people than uh than those two on how to get to production with spring boot so so there's tons of stuff here i know as well uh my friend adib has also got a a session here we go increased developer productivity with spring and vmware tanzo application platform there's tons of really good workshops so if you like you know to actually learn something while you're at a conference you know deep dive spend a few hours on something get yourself signed up for a workshop they're on uh they're on the day zero of the conference and you'll you'll uh really enjoy those i think so yeah question for you go ahead yeah because i've looked too much at SpringOne despite the fact i'm sure i should have is that all in person and virtual i'm assuming everything is hybrid now but i know in some conferences things like workshops are in person only that kind of thing is this all virtual can anyone do it my the to the best of my knowledge it's all in person okay interesting so that's pretty good because the hybrid thing you know in some scenarios like a learning scenario it's been a bit hit and miss for the folks in the room right so you committed you got to go you got to go cool yeah i mean i have to i'd love to go back to in conferences to in person but you said that that ability to focus for your week your four days five days however long it is and especially for things like workshops which is i think why flagged in my head of actually you're in a room nothing else to worry about nobody's saying hang on do this that the other while you're at work still you know that'd be priceless yeah that you know i was thinking about that i mean to to to
14:17preview a little ahead maybe like there's uh there was there was this platform engineering conference called platform con and i think it was all online and so uh i i went to their videos and i was like ah i should just sit down and watch most of those videos and then i thought like man that's going to be so hard to like force myself to like be in a conference mindset to uh to not do other work because i'm at work instead of at a conference but i don't know maybe maybe i can make it happen we'll we'll we'll find out and uh yeah i mean back to SpringOne uh i mean like you're saying there's all sorts of uh great speakers people that we have it'll it'll be good i think i think uh as i get more of a view into like what we're doing on the main stage and things like that it'll be fun to uh to to talk about and preview that as as as we go towards that i don't know sometimes people like to be all secretive about what's on the main stage like for whatever reason uh but we'll we'll see what's what's uh what's possible so you know if you're interested in that it's it's really uh you know we've got i think we have most of the sessions posted but not all of them if i remember and uh so if you go to SpringOne dot io and you click on schedule and then you click on breakout sessions you can start looking through what those sessions are and those tracks and organized and like ben was saying there's workshops to go through and uh in addition to the sessions types of sessions we were talking about a pretty good uh infra like educational event and also just kind of finding out what's going in the industry and the chance to like you know talk with people and hang out and get all that uh what's the word serendipitous is that right the uh unplanned for good things that happen i think that's that's uh otherwise it would be called what would be the opposite of serendipitous accidents i think uh accidents are really serendipitous i'll have to go look this up in my as my dad would say funken wagnall and uh and and see what it says what was when y'all were uh you know in your teens over there over there uh and in the uh the united kingdom england britain i don't want to make
16:18that mistake of mixing them all up but over there on the islands uh like what what was the uh did you have like the rogers and the funken wagnall what was like the jokey dictionary that everyone like used and referred to oh that's a good question uh doofa is the only thing i remember doofa was like anything you wanted it to be okay that's good tv remote but you know it ended up being generic because you know because you know by design american dictionaries are very anti-uk right like i think i think the because isn't it isn't isn't webster like webster and franklin their original thing was like we need to have american english and so that's that's how they like came up with all these american word you know americanized versions of english and things like that so it would lead it would make me assume that there must be like english england english dictionaries that are still like patriotic to the original language versus like us crazy americans who don't know how to spell things that have you know like we just like why don't we just use a z let's let's get some use out of that that character i'm sure there is it's in the oxford dictionary you would think that would still be the the epitome of the british one but i've no idea if it is or not i mean none of us actually use the dictionary anymore right now it's whatever's built into word which is produced by an american company so ah yes default to us however many times i said it back to uk somewhere somewhere i's not configured it and it's still us finally finally franklin and webster victorious by accident yeah however you can also just do the language the the the variant settings so maybe not maybe maybe they who knows well maybe maybe a listener knows and they can write in and tell us or or dissuade me of my cockamamie uh retconning of dictionary history which sounds thrilling anyhow uh yeah but if you want to look into those sessions you can go to spring1.io and uh i think you know as we're going over
18:21there's a lot in there especially if you're a java developer but also if you're just in an organization looking to figure out how to get better at software interested in all the uh the container stuff out there the cloud stuff and uh you know as you may know when you register at spring1.io you can use the code cote200 to get 200 off registration which you can then use to buy some burritos or or whatever you like you know if you're in san francisco and you don't live there normally especially if you're from out of the country you want to when you go to san francisco you want to get what they call a mission burrito which basically people would call a burrito nowadays uh it's just one of those gigantic if you were to make a fist out of both hands and stack them on top of each other it's a little bit bigger than that and uh it's a gigantic tasty burrito depending on what you like to eat but you could take that two hundred dollars and boy you could get a super fancy burrito for two hundred two hundred dollars uh depending on what the exchange rate is uh at the time uh but if you go to spring1.io you can register and use the code cote200 uh to get two hundred dollars off now there were many other conferences since uh last time we talked i think uh it looks like hashi conf had a conference the uh the ebpf uh summit sessions were online there's the kong summit like uh what let's just pick a you know what what are your highlights from these conferences ed what uh did uh so were they fun question i guess so the hashi corp one i thought was probably the sort of the most high profile one of those um a bunch of product announcements as you would expect to kind of vault and boundary and console their various service mesh and i mean everyone knows terraform right um the one thing probably i mean the one thing i always think with ash corp is they do a very good job of both engaging community iterating all these products and they are all kind of easy to get started with it's something they seem to have focused on red monk put out a blog about the conference and that was one of their takeaways
20:24was that simplicity and ease of use has always been sort of a key feature for them and certainly with things like their service mesh product um service mesh has a history of being or a reputation should i say for being complex um and hash corp have definitely aimed at their sort of differentiation being simple to use and obviously they've now got hash port cloud platform and they've a lot of the new features were around use of that so again more sas based again making things quicker and easier to use i can't say any one of the sort of the product announcements really made me go wow that looks astounding which is not you know not a do on them at all it's just there was no thunder and lightning moment in any way um but little by little they're putting together a nice cohesive set of products all kind of work together um so just have a look at the site they've got a whole bunch of blog posts about all the various feature announcements in all the different products i'd have a review of those myself um the ebpf one my only thing that struck me with that is i wanted to go and watch a load of it um and the the sessions are up and online but and maybe it's just a time thing they are literally day one here's a five-hour recording day two here's a five-hour recording all right you know it's like you said oh it wasn't spliced up yeah and set aside two days but i can't so i kind of want that here's the the keynote here's this session here's that one oh i can squeeze 40 minutes in especially at one and a half time speed um five hours was a no um but i said that may be a expedite of things tick it up day one and then carve it up in sessions later on i take it there's no chapter titles then because that's so easy to do with youtube when you post a video like sticking your chapter titles on there they could have done that at least surely they might have right all i did i went on and it said here are the sessions and they were they sort of badged up as day one day two and i went to day one and i saw the slider and it was you know five hours and i was like oh no then that was a maybe there were breakouts to it and easier ways
22:25to index it or something but i'd looked and i just thought right you know i think it was liz rice doing the keynote and i thought well she's always good to listen to i'll go and listen to a keynote and then saw that and thought i you know maybe later just because it didn't feel like a bite sized chunk that i could probably it's just literally thinking day one was five hours not you know i can make 20 minutes to listen to that yes i'll do it um it's it's probably more of a reflection on me than them but there we go yeah you know the the the various devops days is devops days in whatever they uh they used to do it a lot more but they every now and then there's still some that will do that because what they do is obviously well not obviously they stream the events right and then and then so those videos are actually like the save streams that they have and then some weeks later after the conference organizers have like you know had a good nap i think they they do come back and slice them up but yeah it is kind of funny when yeah that's that's always a good situation where there's like a five hour block and then as a speaker i'm often like ah of course i want to show off some work that i did and you know i know how to make a bookmark that starts you at like you know two hours and 42 minutes but still it's kind of like weird to be like check out this talk in this five hour block of stuff but that reminds me ben since you then maybe for people who watch this care did you since you're such a big star on youtube did you see that they have they have they have a new they have a new thing called a handle and there it's everyone's going to be able to get a handle right uh but not everyone at once that some somehow they're going to notify you when you can register for your handle so potentially i'll probably never be able to get this but in i could get you know at Coté as i have in most other services and you know you can just say at and then you can refer to people instead of using like you know the channel id that i have is uh from my my original podcast drunk and retired which is probably not great as james governor told me when he hired me at red monk to use in a professional capacity despite the the greatness of of the uh the content mostly because you're neither
24:29yeah well that's that's true we that when i when i made up that uh that that domain name in college the person i was talking with like our joke was like those are two things to aspire to and you can always have one of them and and so like it's it's it's uh you know half possible dreams uh if you if you're looking to achieve your dreams yes yes so these handles are going to be like the blue tick marks on twitter are they where you've got to have you know 50 000 followers minimum to actually be a public person and qualify or something well you you can anyone can get a handle once they tell you you can get it and i think it's over the next two weeks they're rolling it out it's not a verified thing but it's just so that like you know i mean it's it's a little odd because they already have channel names you can set up yeah i don't know it's just a new thing how many handles per channel then or do you not get handles per channel do you get one handle i think i think it's one handle per channel that's that's the distinction is this refers to your channel not you i i think well whatever that was our youtube star corner for this episode youtube tip of the day hey but while we're talking about it Coté i do have a new video on youtube right now uh oh yes uh deploy your python apps to uh safely to production uh so go check it out oh yeah that would that would be nice i'll have to i'll have to look that up do you think do you think it's worth my time one day in the future like learning python ben is that something i should do i think uh i think you should learn the language that you find the most interesting because um you know it's like anything in life if you if you if you if you have an interest in something it doesn't feel like a chore it feels it feels like a pleasure right so yeah yeah i get i guess i asked that inaccurately like like like like i i think the only reason nowadays i would invest time in learning a language is as if it was if if i could like use it often just for like quick utilitarian
26:31functions that i needed right and i feel like a lot of what i would be doing is like manipulating and doing tech stuff and like merging things around and like you know i guess i could go relearn pearl but that doesn't seem like a thing one would do it seems like if you're like doing numbers and characters and simple stuff like that that python is what you would learn plus it's ubiquitous and everywhere yeah you're dead right python's got a huge reputation as being a very sort of you know pliable language you can you can wire together all sorts of things um from video to you know artificial intelligence to machine learning to just doing a spreadsheet you know whatever whatever it is that you want to do it's one of those languages where you can probably do it and it probably won't kill you to do it either which is also nice and then and then of course you can deploy it securely and safely absolutely to production uh which is the the the content of my uh my latest uh video yeah so go check it out we'll put it in the show notes well i think i think there's two more things uh i i wanted to go over before we wrap up one is that the uh everyone's favorite the uh state of devops report the google state of devops report or accelerate is out recently and uh i i i talked about this on on uh we talked about a little bit on my other podcast software defined talk last week where i fully admitted i haven't read it yet but let's talk about it uh which which is sort of like and now i think i've read some of it i've skimmed through it and i didn't realize it was 77 pages and as someone who writes 70 to 80 page things i'm not making fun of it i just need to invest some time in skimming through it uh but you know it looks like there's a there's a pretty deep focus on uh security in there and i think also um you know what's interesting what's one of the the key things that's interesting about the devops report is trying to draw some sort of uh i'm i'm i'm no statistician or however you say that but trying to
28:34draw some sort of causation correlation between behaviors and the performance and success of the organizations who do them and i think i think there's there's some interesting new ways of looking at that as far as uh things people are doing but but have have either of y'all had a chance to skim through it and draw anything interesting from it i'm i'm sorry i've not no i uh i tell you what i did do though which relates to the last conversation ed talking about ebpf so much did make me go and do a little bit of research on what that's all about and that did blow my mind but no i've not seen the devops one yet um i i i i i need to go and have a look at it i'm sorry i've not done my homework i need to go look at that one i feel much the same way there was a lot out sort of in the last couple of weeks to try and absorb and that just becomes another one and especially because it was assisted one on security and this sort of security focus one from google which is a bit more as you say go that's a bit more process a bit more high level maybe than assisted one um but there's so much to sort of consume and actually for me you know you know it's when i read through them is it all still mixes into platform engineering all this trying to find what is actually new because i can look at the sysdig one and my takeaway after skimming it for five minutes was security firm finds that there are vulnerabilities in containers and everywhere well i i knew that before i even looked at the report you know um so there wasn't anything massively new in any of them um the google one again if i read it and thought about it for a while i would probably end up with a bit of a takeaway of ah things have moved on a bit from where i thought they would be right platform engineering is one of those things that has been around a bit amorphous for a while in my head at least it's firming up a bit what it is i suspect if i read the google report it would firm up in my head a few more concepts that i sort of understand but don't necessarily refer to with the right terminology or something and then that's the that's that's that's a great segue because that's the other thing i i was uh you
30:35know obviously over the past year there's been a lot of like platform engineering talk and and on sunday morning this past weekend to give you an example of how thrilling my personal time is spent i was just you know looking through things and and i i was realizing i and and i realized that you know i i kind of rethought about the fact that there was a platform con out there and there's all this platform engineering talk and uh you know over the past year or so i think uh that has really cemented itself as the new phrase for what we used to call whatever right like you know there's there's a continuing evolution of how do you do operations for the stack of stuff that you run your custom software on and uh you know we we evolve that that phrase every now and then like i think the team topologies people use the phrase platform as a product and several years ago we would use that phrase to describe kind of like uh you know when when when you get a platform as a service a cloud foundry thing in place how do you operate that and and make it better for developers but but i'm i feel like we're pretty close to essentially saying like nope the phrase you use now is platform engineering i think i think that's that's what it is and and you know a lot of i'm i'm not quite done i tried to make a video summarizing in 60 seconds and then i watched and i'm like no that's no good so i still need to do like some learning how to like be concise about it as i'm proving right now uh but uh i i think uh it's it's a good sort of uh it's good to have everyone's attention on how do we treat customers our developers as customers and go beyond just like providing tools for them and think about how we incorporate that in into the platform which i think i think is like maybe there is my theory is that there's renewed interest in this now because you know i'm doing air quotes here quote unquote everyone wants to to have their platform on kubernetes now which sort of opens up again the problem of like ah but you're gonna need to add a lot to that to make it usable for developers and that's what your
32:35platform engineering team does so it's kind of uh brought this vacuum in there and uh so you know uh uh charity majors has a a lengthy piece that actually has a table going over like different activities and things that that's fun to look at that's a good summary of it and uh there's also um our old friend uh paula uh has has a talk out you know she she's one of the the people that uh i don't know i first started learning about this stuff in in 2017 or 2018 uh so she has an updated talk uh kind of going over the idea of a platform engineering and and and uh platform as a product which is great uh so there's been a lot of good thought leadership and defining there that i think will be interesting to look at maybe in future episodes i'll have a more concise way of looking at it plus all of this talk about pre-recorded conferences is making me think just as a new policy maybe we can work this into the the accelerate state of devops report 2023 that what executives should focus on is setting aside a day or two called uh conference day where like you you give people the the freedom to actually sit down and watch a bunch of youtube videos for a conference and the reasoning would be like you need to have continuing education and training and normally you would send people to the conferences but this is very expensive whereas if you could just give them two days to just watch a bunch of conference stuff online maybe they won't get the full benefit but you know they'll they'll actually do it as we have demonstrated many times you're just like i don't know i don't have time for that i got other stuff to do but you could have the bosses actually force doing it and they could check in you could have like a break kind of like the the you know the conference uh thing will have like a 30 minute break and maybe you have a 30 minute thing and the boss will like you know come online and be like hey look i'm watching conference stuff too eating crappy snacks that we sent to people like the little granola bars and things like that just like a real conference not at SpringOne though which is going to have great snacks uh not just uh granola bars and things like that i hope but uh i don't know
34:41do you have anything else you want to uh empty from the uh the out basket before we wrap up here well you mentioned uh kubernetes there and just a moment ago and i do remember one short report that came across my desk this week which was from uh wang clouds they'd done a survey of um the cost associated with cloud and there were some very interesting findings in there for example that yes a lot of people want to move to kubernetes but some of them find that that can get quite expensive for unexpected reasons not because kubernetes is expensive it's not you know it's free as in free beer or whatever but actually running it and then the proliferation of it that can sometimes happen if you're sort of slightly out of control with with how your developers get um clusters for example or if you don't have a good handle on all the observability and metrics needed to run that as well as being able to translate what you see into how much it will cost to run it in the cloud then uh you know some folks are getting burned apparently and and that so that was a really interesting report and it sort of you know last week we had a guest we had nikon didn't we talking about tanzu application service and um you know that's one of the alternative ideas is well maybe i don't need kubernetes maybe it's not right for me maybe these this SpringOne talk we were talking about earlier might uh have some insights there about when to use kubernetes and when not to use it but also at the same time there was a ton of good stuff in there about do you actually know what your costs are right now for running anything in the cloud in any way whether it's kubernetes or not do you actually know what it costs can you predict how much it's going to cost and do you have a good handle on that because in all likelihood with the kind of economic outlook at the moment you know budgets are going to be a bit squeezed so maybe it's a good
36:46time to figure out if you have a handle on that or not yeah yeah you you want it you want to remove uh costs as something that's going to be annoying for you not not not making it totally free that would be cool too but just in the sense of like all of a sudden we've discovered this thing that we didn't know about that's now preventing us from going forward boy that was really vaguely put but like i think i think uh you know because like in in the uh i don't know five or six years ago in kind of like the first one of the first waves of anti-public cloud fud it was just like costs right like you know having to pay for something but i think everyone understands nowadays that like public cloud or any cloud isn't free and yeah and then and then what becomes important is like so now that we've accepted that like how do you make sure you're not wasting money right like there's there's no need to like burn money to be awesome you can uh you can control it and understand it and and get a hold of things which which i think is um i don't know isn't always a focus early on in uh new technologies emerging it's it's only when they um get mainstream use that it's something wise to pay attention to yeah and when you're a customer of three clouds plus you've still got your data center it's kind of like okay this is this is kind of getting a bit difficult to track like i've got these credit card bills coming in but do i i know what they're exactly for have i got a load of stuff i'm not using so if you don't have a handle on it it can really bite you i think that's right well hopefully you the dear listeners have gotten a handle on a little bit of things going on in the uh the old cloud native whatever we call this world nowadays if you want to get the show notes for this episode we'll have links to things we talked about probably not links to things we didn't talk about we'll see but if you go to tonsutalk.com you can find the show notes for this episode and uh and find those links look at those surveys and other
38:46stuff like that and also of course just as a reminder we have SpringOne coming up december 6th and 8th i think if you've listened this far you have an idea of what's going on there but uh you should you should sign up for it look at the sessions check it out and uh you know i'll just put the code you can use to get 200 off in the show notes if if you if you really need it why go over it again is that is that that's that's not a good practice for advertising anything right to repeat yourself they say just say it once if if i remember uh so with that we'll see everyone next time bye bye bye