Why don't y'all introduce yourself briefly? I'm Coté. I work here at VMware World here on the Tanzu Talk podcast. How about the one with the blue shirt? You introduce yourself briefly. Hi, all. That'll be me. I'm Ed Grigson. Been at VMware for about eight years. Bit of a mix of marketing and other, and before that, a long time on the customer side. So, and that's all you need to know about me. And last but not least. Hello, I'm Ben. I work as well with Michael in the marketing team for Tanzu over at VMware. So what I thought we would start here, we'll go a little more in depth about ourselves and plans and stuff at the end so that it's not too much meta stuff. But it's been a long time since we've had a Tanzu Talk podcast in the old format of going over fun news and things like that. And so that's what we'll be up to here. I've learned you never promise to do anything that means you will do something on a regular cadence because then inevitably you won't and you just do it once. But we will not fail at that, will we? We'll be great. I think our enthusiasm will overcome our lifestyle of leisure, essentially, or my pull for that, at least. We'll find out. Yes, that's right. Only the future will tell. I mean, so far, we like hanging out. So yeah, that's a good omen. Yes, that's good. That's good. I think I like y'all's optimism. Hopefully it's infectious and I haven't been inoculated against it. Don't do that. Well, why don't we start off? We're going to try out an idea here. We're going to call it Ed's Most Thrilling News from Last Week. It's a bit long, but I think we'll see if it might be an available domain name. We might do dot limo, dot plumbing, I don't know, dot news. We'll have to think about that one.
2:00So this is the week of August 1st, you know, 2022. And I think July was one of those months that has 31 days. So I'm not really sure. I can't do math that quickly. But what do you think was fun last week? You keep up with the news in our sector. What caught your eye? I'm not sure I'd describe any of this as thrilling. I guess it depends, you know, on your background and things. I always hear these thrilling, exciting, we're going to delight our customers. Yeah, you know, Microsoft released some more tech for developers. But basically, one of the ones that I did at least spawn thing, okay, that looks kind of interesting. Where does it fit? I think it's probably technically two weeks ago. I may be going outside of our remit there. But yeah, they released something called the Azure Developer CLI, of which I suspect Microsoft already have like 15 or 20. It's a pretty generic name. You know, if you Google it, you're going to get a million other things. But this looks, so it's A, it's like, you know, the actual incantation, I'm going to call it, is AZD. So that's your actual command line. But it feels to me a bit like CF push. As in, you know, the idea is, it's very much saying to developers, there is a ton of complexity around. We've seen this in a million different areas and vendors and products. There is a huge amount of sort of infrastructure available to developers nowadays to get stuff done. But it's kind of overwhelming. You know, golden path, whatever you want to call it. This is another of Microsoft's attempts to say, we've got all this Azure stuff for you, but you don't know how to use it. You don't know how to plumb it together. There's a thousand different options and script languages. We're going to try and simplify it for you and bring it together into one Uber template where you can spin up the infrastructure, deploy your code, sort of integrate with CICD, but it's a single command line to do the whole thing. And that's sort of in a nutshell is what they want. They want you to consider that whether it's, you know, build or push or monitor, there's a single command. You run it for each one. Pop drunk or you're done.
4:00And do you think the intention is that, like, it's for all of the things in Azure? Like, that you can get, like, kind of one unified CLI for that, or it's just components of it? Or, like, what do you think the skill is? It's bits of a guess, right? Because nothing's ever going to cope with the whole of Azure. It's just this huge beast. I mean, right now, I couldn't tell you how many Azure services there are nowadays. Somewhere between 100 and 200, I would guess. That's a lot of flags for a command line tool. It is. This covers four services today. So, you know, they're starting small as they have to. I don't know if I've got a note of which four it was. I should have, you would think. There we go. So, Azure App Service, Azure Functions, Azure Container Apps, and Azure Static Web Apps. So, those are the four that right now you could write a template for that would spin up those services in the background and then deploy your code on straight onto them and then potentially be able to monitor them as well all through this new CLI. So, you know, it's interesting in that there's, A, I have not kept up with every Azure service because it'd be a full-time job and I can't do all that. So, I look at a lot of these and think already that still feels, even though it's four of a small subset, which do I use? And, you know, I assume the people using it are more familiar with how that would work. It supports a variety of different languages. It's interesting because I guess also a lot of my time is spent looking at Kubernetes stuff. And I've been learning a lot of that over the last couple of years. And this one is not Kubernetes-centric. You know, right now, AKS isn't even on that list. It's on the roadmap. It's going to get planned for. But you couldn't right now spin up an AKS cluster in the background and deploy your code to it using this tool. I'd imagine that's going to be pretty much next up on the list, but not yet. And that's, you know, I've seen lots of other companies coming in. And one of the other bits of news we can talk about soon is to do with another company who are sort of targeting that. This one, doesn't it? It's a bit more broad-based. You could, you know, I suppose you can see it. There's all these services. They have more of a problem than some others because it is a build-your-own-tool care. All the clouds are. They need a bit more logic to stitch the services, the development, and make it work a bit more seamlessly.
6:03Yeah, it seems like if you have a bevy of services, if that's still a word, like a whole bunch of things, having a, being able to integrate to the command line, so to speak, is usually the best option. It's just sort of to be able to reach in there instead of bouncing between a bunch of UIs, which, and then, I mean, hopefully you follow the old patterns of being able to pipe things together, all the Linux-based ways of doing things. Now, now, Ben, you run Zoom on Linux, so you, you must know a lot about command lines. You know, I think, I think maybe for just for like a contextual sort of thing, like, do you think, do you think nowadays in like the cloud land, command lines are done well and pervasive enough? Or is it, or is like doing things through the command line, like a lagging sort of developer experience thing? Or like, does it, is it usually done first or second, or like what, where are we? Like, have we perfected the command line interface for developers to the cloud, or is there still work to be done there? I think, I think some experiences are very, very good. I like the, the language now used in command lines has changed, you know, a great deal over the years. And the point that we're at now where it's sort of conversational almost is very easy to work with, you know, and it makes command lines much more accessible, much more powerful. And Kube CTL is a great example of that, you know, you can, you know exactly what, what, what it is that you're after doing, you're doing a get or a describe or whatever, there's certain standardization to it, but it's also very pluggable. So I think, I think they've come a long way from, from, from, from where they were, you know, many years ago. And they definitely have a, a really valid part of the, of the experience, you know, most of the web runs headless anyways. So you kind of have to be, you know, have some competence, I think, in, in the world of command lines in order to, to be able to survive that sort of cloud native push and the, the, the, the modernization, the transformation demanded by the cloud.
8:16I think it's, yeah, it's kind of like an essential skillset, I think. Yeah. You know, I, I haven't thought about that. I, you know, I, I, I must, what's the word they use? They like the phrase that full transparency. I, I don't really ever use the command line anymore. I just, you know, make slides and other goofy things. But when, when I do see command line things, they are a lot more, uh, humane is the wrong word, but they're a lot more human, just like the, the commands are very descriptive. And, uh, there's a lot less little double hyphens and weird things than, uh, back in my day, which, which was nice and relaxing. Have you seen the great stuff that you can do with slides on the command line? Oh yeah. Yeah. I, I have, I have, I have, I, I have seen a little bit, I forget the name of the, there's some JavaScript framework that some people use to do some, some slide thing. And then one day I'm going to be forced to learn how to use like Git in real detail, because I'm just going to be collaborating with someone and they're going to be like, you gotta, you gotta go do your slides over here. And I'll say like, okay, give me a couple of days to go take a course and figure out how to do this. Oh yeah, that Git is a challenge. Yeah. I I'm challenged by it regularly. It's, uh, it's, it's not the easiest in the world. It's not because of the command line though. It's because of version control. Yeah. It's complicated on its own. This is, this is true. Well, well, Ed, what, I think there's two other pieces of thrilling news news from last week. What, uh, you want to just give us a little, little, little taste of it? Yep. Oh, well, so the other one, which I alluded to before was Morantis, um, have acquired a company called Amazee.io, um, which wasn't one I'd heard of before, uh, who build themselves as a zero ops application delivery hub for Kubernetes. So I said, so this one is all Kubernetes centric and Morantis obviously used to be sort of open stack. I think still are, um, but also have the, the Kubernetes platform that this is now going to hook into. And the idea behind this acquisition is that again, focusing on developers and making life easier for them and how to stitch together both their code and infrastructure and coming back to our lovely CLI conversation there and sort of Git ops.
10:17Um, the idea will be, the idea will be they check code into a, a Git repository, which triggers automatically the building up of the required infrastructure in the background. And that's what Amazee, which is based on an open source Lagoon project does. So it will look at the code and fire up whether that's Kubernetes clusters, extra namespaces and deploy your code into it and then help you monitor it. So again, that same focus on making it just quick and easy for developers to spin stuff out without having to learn Kubernetes, I think is the key, at least in their case, certainly, um, we all know there's still a learning curve in there. Um, and that's something that obviously we try and address as well. And this is sort of Morantity's, um, bid to get more involved in that, that side of things, I guess. And then how about the last piece? Oh, go ahead, Ben. Well, I, I, you know, and this is, this also speaks to the sort of general push to DevOps, doesn't it? And the, the idea of having, um, you know, your, your infrastructure as, uh, something that is version controlled and is changed via version control. And I think, um, it's, it's recent to me and I've not really experienced that until I started working more on, um, on things like, uh, the terms of application platforms. So, um, I, I, I find that absolutely fascinating. I'm very, uh, interested to see how many different products there are in this space and what, what they bring to the table. That's unique about each particular product. Can't say I know a great deal about this one, Ed, but, um, but it sounds like, um, more momentum in that direction, which, uh, which is clearly a thing, right? Yeah. And it's all around again, it's making it easier. And I think you can look back, you know, 10 years plus to everyone, I mean, longer than that, right? But everyone's been trying to get out of the way of developers and say, you guys do your things and it just works for you. And whether it was ideal back in the day of sort of standardizing that and then going, right, we will just make sure this is operonized and as efficient as possible. And now it's obviously gone to code and sort of everything is code and GitOps, everything becoming more and more self-service because suddenly there's more infrastructure.
12:24It used to be quite simple, right? Just, oh, you need a server. Then you need a VM, right? That's fairly quick and easy. We'll do that. We'll hand over VM. We're done. Now there's a million different building blocks and suddenly it's more complex to then get back out of the way. Well, this extra stuff's come in, even though it's more power, more choice, potentially a lot more you can do with it. And it definitely does feel like momentum everywhere is towards how you bridge that gap, you know, the developer gap, whatever everyone's going to call it. But there's an interesting push to that direction. And as an infrastructure guy myself, I find learning that, all that stuff, you know, like you were saying, Michael, getting back to CLIs. And when I did all my sort of CKA stuff, I actually really enjoyed getting back to command lines. But it had been a long time since I'd done it a lot because I did a bit of coding back in the day. And everyone said Visual Basic was going to take over the world. And then PowerShell was going to take over the world. And they all kind of stayed somewhere in the background. You learn them. But, you know, and here we are again, the third generation of now you must code. Coding is everywhere, except it kind of is more this time around. It's sort of, maybe instead of taking over the world, it's more, you know, you've got the, you've got like the Star Trek political universe and the Star Wars political universe. And the Star Wars political universe is very zero sum. It's like either the Empire is in charge or the Rebels or whatever they call themselves are in charge. Whereas in the Star Trek universe, there's multiple like political outfits and races, like in planets, like it's all, it's fragmented. And so, you know, I feel like maybe IT is more like the Star Trek universe. It's never like, you know, one thing takes over fully. There may be certain concepts. Like, for example, we were just discussing, like, you know, I've been developing, I wouldn't call it a theory, but just some idle thinking that basically, and I don't know, you'll probably see stuff like this as well. But it'd be interesting ongoing to see it, that basically, I don't know, every five or 10 years, we kind of like re-implement older ideas to make them better. Like, a lot of what we were describing there is related to, whatever we used to call it, infrastructure as code.
14:26Was that IAC? There was even some abbreviation for it, which is, you know, like an early DevOps thought about automating things. And now, and it was, again, on behalf of developers, and now we're automating stuff again on behalf of developers. And I think, I think it's tied to, again, only for good as we evolve the platform. It'd be easy to be cynical about it and be an old, old person and be like, ah, you kids doing the same thing over again. But like, I think, I think, you know, we get a better chunk of infrastructure and then that requires a new stack of automation on top, which also kind of drives new, new UI stuff, which totally cool. But speaking of, speaking of new, new, new, better things, there's a bit of service mesh stuff to, to, to touch on as well. Right. I think is the, the last item there is. Yeah. So that was the other one I'd picked up on, which was, um, Cilium by iSurveillant. Well, it's obviously the open source and iSurveillant do the kind of, you know, the enterprise grade sold version. Um, but they've just released a new version, which interestingly was 1.12, yet actually, when you look at the features, you know, it could have been a V2 release. There's a huge amount of extra functionality in there. And the big one, I guess, is that they're now including their own service mesh in there. Um, there's been a bit of a, I'd almost say a war of words, but sort of everyone's been watching this trend of service mesh has always had a challenge with complexity and all these things. It's the fact you have to deploy sidecars and then you've got EBVF coming along, um, which is this whole, you can embed a ton of sort of functionality into the kernel and potentially skip a load of the complexity, certainly service mesh for security, some other areas. And psyllium's kind of led the way that they've been the, the trendsetters and saying, Hey, this might be a better way of doing things. Um, so it'd be interesting to see how right they are. You know, there's, there's two sides to every argument, if not more. Um, but this certainly is a big release for them. There's a load of extra functionality in there. You know, networking is not my strength. Um, so I understand where they're adding in bits. I, I can certainly read their arguments and say it's easier, better, more performant. You can do some super magic source by being, having this access to the kernel. Um, but it'd be interesting to see where that goes, I guess, you know, they've got a lot of, a lot of good people over there, some very good XVM where people over there as well.
16:32So an interesting one to watch. I mean, what do you, what do you guys know on the networking side? What's your thoughts on eBPF and all that evolution? Honestly, it goes over my head a lot of the times, but, uh, I, if we can rewind a second. So, so, you know, the service mesh thing with the side cars, that's been the way that it's been done for a long time, isn't it? That's been the sort of, uh, collective best efforts thinking on how to achieve that sort of cross-cutting concern next to all your apps deployed via some sort of control plane. So, here instead, we've got a technology that is baking that into the kernel instead as part of the operating system. So, you don't have to do that anymore. Is that what, is that how it works? Roughly, yeah. Yeah. When I first read about that, I was a bit confused because I've always, my, you know, my historic doing a degree in computer science was always like, the kernel is this tiny, tiny piece of code that is uber-jealously guarded. Because obviously if, if something gets into your kernel and you don't want there, you're in a world of pain. Yeah. So then saying, you know what, we'll take all that code you've written out in the real world, and we'll just stick it in the kernel. Sounds like a disaster. Sounds like, no, no, kernel, you know, kernel maintainers are, they're like the elite guys. They take forever doing all this. If it's not approved by Linus, then it doesn't go in the kernel. So the idea that you're like, hey, you know what, take your old code out there, just stick it in here, and it'll suddenly be better seemed a bit weird to me. But I do get the idea that if it is appropriately vetted and only has certain remits, it can be, because it's closer to the kernel, it's just more efficient. And it can do more things without having to say, you know what, run a sidecar in every instance, because the kernel does become at least just central point of control, I suppose. So it gives people a new way to say, actually, here's a central point, we can go and check everything, instead of having to distribute it around the world. Now, I'm sure there's a million pros and cons for all this, right, whether it's design, sort of the architecture.
18:33But I guess, as a consumer of this stuff, and I'm not a networking guy, but if I was having to deploy a service mesh, and that meant doubling up my containers everywhere, or didn't, if this was just simpler, and I can almost say, someone else worry about that. You know, whether it's iSurveillance, whatever, you've written stuff, it's in the kernel, does some magic, don't know how, but it does, and it makes it simpler for me. Happy days. It sounds like a super cheap way to, you know, cut down on resource use, but I'm really interested how they're going to deal with things like updates. Yeah, and CVEs, and that sort of fascinating stuff. Yeah, sounds really good. Yeah, you know, I was, well, I guess this isn't entirely true, but when I was aware of being a programmer, I was raised as a Java programmer. And so I always hear, like, you know, I don't know, once you start messing around with the kernel and the networking, I feel like you've been a bad programmer. Like, you're not supposed to, like, break out of the upper layers of things. However, you know, it may be philosophically, if what you mean by putting stuff in the kernel is just, like, messing around with the operating system in one of the containers that your application runs in, then at some point, just the operating system isn't this, like, sacred thing at the bottom of the foundation that you can't mess with. It's just, like, another piece of, like, your application layer that you can do whatever you like with. And then if you have, like, four more layers of that underneath your application, which seems like madness, but here we are, then, you know, do whatever, right? And that, it seems like that, that sort of, like, approach of, like, as we were talking about, like, the kernel is, like, this little foundational thing that we don't mess with. Then it just becomes another, like, malleable layer in the stack. And maybe that, like, what's the word? I get my C words, like, coherent and comprehensive, but there's some word that is, like, you know, it's whatever. Instead of, you know, there's a kernel at the bottom that's, like, that little, small, secure one. And everything up above it is just, you know, whatever. Packages. Yeah. Fed money.
20:34Yeah. Who knows? There was a lot of chats years ago, wasn't there, about micro kernels. You know, this was also the idea of modifying the kernel to strip out a whole bunch of stuff that you don't need in order to reduce the security footprint and to also increase the boot times and reduce memory overhead and that sort of stuff. Kind of went quiet, but I definitely remember there being, you know, talk of having this idea of a malleable, you know, not a kernel as a fixed thing, but a kernel as a flexible thing. So, yeah, really interesting stuff. That was a good trend, wasn't it? That was like when Docker came along, everyone went, hey, Docker's idea is to just strip everything down to what you need for that app. Can we not extend that all the way to the kernel and go, we don't need a multi-purpose kernel either. This one just needs to do these things, wouldn't that be the logical endpoint for it? Only what's needed, the austere cloud, just going back to what's required. Well, so, you know, also since last we recorded, which was never in the past few weeks, we had a large release of one of our, I don't know, one of our major suites, if you will, that does a lot of these things we were talking about, the Tanzu application platform, version 1.2. Now, I don't know if, if Ed is going to make one of his rulings, was that more like a 2.0 release or a 0.2? I think, I think one of the, one of the things we found is whenever we want a ruling on a dot release versus a point release, we now have a go-to source. Someone who, who can. I think for legal reasons, we'll stick to what we said. Yeah, no, exactly. But, you know, it's always, it's always, it's always good to know that we, we have a source if we want to discuss. Is this, is this really like a 0.1 or a 0.1.2 A? What, and is it an A or a B? Like, what, what are we doing here? Are we back in the Star Trek thing again? Because then you have the Enterprise 1A and 1B and all that. Yeah, so the inscrutable star dates. They're just like, we can figure those out.
22:36But now. Just coming back to that though, Michael, the whole Star Trek thing. Just remember that in Star Trek, in order to fix anything, they blow up the Enterprise. Oh, that's true. That's basically how they fix it. How are we going to fix this? Let's blow up the Enterprise. And so, yeah. Well, immutable infrastructure. That's exactly how it should be. I think, I think that's this, I mean, just to, just to, to get like too deeply philosophical again, I think you would have a good paper there about the, the, the Star Trek universe's position on Theseus's ship. Because if they've blown up the Enterprise many times, not only have they taken it apart and replaced it, they've just obliterated it, but it's still the Enterprise. So there's a definitive answer in the, the Star Trek universe to that, to that problem. You know, to, to, to also support the metaphor, it's got a lot of modernization built in to that particular universe. They modernize every couple of years, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the, the Enterprise is just an idea, a logos, if you will, in Scotty's head. Brand. And so it always exists as long as he does or transmits it to someone else. Anyhow. Well, now you've done several videos, uh, uh, kind of highlighting things in the Tanzu application platform, uh, 1.2, Ben. What are, what are your, what are some, some notable things you like in this release? Uh, quite a lot of stuff actually. So, so I, I like the fact that now the, um, the IDE experience, uh, so, you know, developers working in their IDE can go all the way from create through update debugging, uh, all the way through to, um, deleting applications all on the platform. So it means you don't have to leave your IDE for anything. And I've been using this quite a lot this past few weeks as I'm, uh, in the process of putting together my talk for, um, uh, explore, uh, 2022, which will happen in about a month's time. So I've been using this, uh, this feature, you know, firsthand and it's great. It's really powerful. You can, you can go in there and use the accelerators that are already in the Tanzu application platform
24:39to create your, um, you know, your code, uh, project. You can push that project straight to the platform without having to check it in or, or, you know, formalize it in some way. You can run it, you can debug it, you can even change it live. And then when you're done, you can delete the workload and it's gone again. And that's, well, you don't have to leave your IDE. So productivity is very high in, in, you know, working in that way. So I like that. So that's one of the major sort of, um, uh, touch points for 1.2 is the fact that you can go all the way through that life cycle inside your IDE. Um, there's loads of others as well. I know, um, there's a really good video out there by my colleague Miles, which is all about the, uh, GitOps flow that has been introduced in 1.2. So you can have things like, um, uh, the platform create, um, change requests for you and, and check them into, uh, into, into Git and then have those flow through to, um, your different, uh, types of clusters, whether it's your production cluster or your staging cluster or whatever. Um, that's also really, really powerful. Um, there's a whole bunch of other stuff as well. I'll, uh, tell you a few of the highlights from the, uh, from the list. If you give us a second, uh, we've got air gap as well. So, um, you know, you can install the whole platform in an internet free environment, which is pretty powerful if you're, uh, you know, sovereign, uh, concerns, for example, uh, the sorts of concerns that you have. So you don't need an internet connection to, uh, to install it anymore. Um, we've got more support coming along for more IDEs as well. So IntelliJ is getting a similar plugin to the one that we have for VS code. That's really good. Um, really basic, but quite fun is if you've already built a whole bunch of applications and you're used to creating, um, containers using Docker files. So if you normally use Docker file and you have a Docker file description of that container,
26:39we can now take that Docker file, um, uh, description and build that Docker file for you, uh, that Docker, uh, image for you on the platform using an integration, um, with, uh, uh, an open source piece called Kaneko, uh, which is really good. So you don't even need to, um, you know, can bring along your existing code with the existing Docker file, give it to the platform. The platform will build that into a Docker image for you and run it as a workload, which is, which is also really, really good. And we have some new stuff with AWS as well. My, um, my colleague, um, Ryan, uh, did a great video on that, uh, which is, uh, basically we're, we're now in the AWS marketplace. So you can go into the AWS marketplace and you can choose to create a Tanzu application platform there, and it will go through a whole sort of install a script for you and create all the things that you need for your Tanzu application platform to, uh, to spin it up in AWS with all the sort of local AWS features like ECR, et cetera. So those are the highlights, I think. As, as I was watching the, uh, I think you mentioned it, but like kind of a, a demo of the supply chain stuff where, you know, there's integrations to, to, to sneak and some other things like that. Like, uh, you, you, I was thinking like it is, uh, especially when you can bring things into your ID, like you were saying, it starts to, it makes it easier for a developer to think about all that infrastructure stuff as part of their application and kind of like, think about how they're programming the way that their application is built. It's not some sort of like separate tool chain that they have. I don't know if that's the effect that will happen, but like, uh, definitely like, if you want your developers, this is going to sound ridiculous now that I've said it out loud in my head, but like, if, if you want developers to start paying attention to something, it's good to get it in front of them instead of, instead of being in a, in a different like tool area, so to speak, or a different UI or something, but to kind of have it, uh, in
28:40their primary workspace, uh, I guess, literally speaking, even though that's a metaphor. Well, look, if you, if you compare it to what normally happens in the world of Kubernetes, you know, I, I've, I developed applications against Kubernetes and, and work with clients on, uh, similar problems as well. And oh my word, there's a lot of work to do. You know, it's a, it's a, a YAML nightmare where you've got to describe all this stuff just to get your one tiny workload and actually run on that platform and be, you know, maintained by that platform. There's a whole bunch of busy work that you have to do. I'm genuinely enjoying the hell out of not having to do any of that because it was never adding much value to what I was doing. So the fact that I can go into the idea and just say, create me this Java app and run it over there on Kubernetes for me. And that's it. I mean, that's literally all I did was say, give me that run it. There is very, very liberating and, uh, it saves me a lot of work. So yeah, I'm very happy with that. You want to, you want to say, you want to save the, save the complicated things for when you're making like enchiladas and just to have everything else to be pre-made for you. But I was interrupting you at you're, you're going to say, I was just going to say, so for me, VS code, my analogy, which is not as good as your Star Trek, and I'm sure it's like, I do quite a lot of fitness stuff, particularly for our Olympics stuff we're doing internally. Right. But if it doesn't happen in Strava, if you haven't logged that activity in Strava, everyone's like, didn't happen, you know, made it up, et cetera. For me, that's VS code. You know, if you talk to develop it, if it didn't happen in VS code, didn't happen. No interested. And everything I've done is all VS code. So the more things get integrated and everything kind of is now, right? It's like, I'm in VS code. Can I click a button and do it here? If so, brilliant. If not, no interested job done. Yeah. So the fact we're, we're integrated there now is a very good thing. I feel, I feel like the longer I talk with you two, I'm going to, I'm going to get motivated to actually like, uh, do some programming again. That'll be great. This V V I'm not going to make a, this year's almost more than half done.
30:43So it's not going to be a calendar year, 2023 goal or whatever year this is. No, wait, this is 2022. See? Yeah. So it will be that. I don't know, but we're in fiscal 2023, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's. There you go. See, I got it mixed up. I got the wrong why, uh, anyhow, well, I, I had, I had some, uh, some, some plans to have some backstage conversation, but I think, I think we, we had some sufficient conversation and also my son is trying to become a guest star here. Uh, but I, I think, I think maybe we'll, we'll, uh, carry the, the backstage discussion over to, uh, to another episode. And just as, as a brief thing, before we, uh, go to some introductions, like I was saying, uh, you know, we mentioned service mesh a little bit and we're, we're going to have one of our coworkers or an on to talk about not only service mesh, but security and Kubernetes. Uh, we'll see when that comes up sometime very soon. And also you mentioned VMware explore bin, which is always a good reminder that I too should work on my presentations. Now we, I'm actually doing two and we sent in slides, which in theory means that I'm fully ready to go. Uh, so I'm glad I'm ready to go. That's a, that's a relief, uh, that I'm totally finished anyways. Uh, but that is going to be, uh, August 29th to September 1st, uh, which, which will be, uh, fun. But if you go to, I think if you just search for VMware Explorer, it used to be called VMworld. Uh, you can find it now. I think, uh, that, that, no, no, I'm still here. I'm still here. That said, so I want, here's some introductory stuff. So, you know, we, uh, we here at, uh, VMware Tanzu and then a pivotal, like I've, I've hosted a podcast for us for, for many, many years. And the most recent version of it is, uh, that I think we did for the past three or four years. I guess it'd be three. Like, uh, it was called, uh, Tanzu talk with our, our, our former coworker, Richard Sirotter. We would come on about every week, except when I was busy or slacking off and, uh, go over a little bit of news, uh, that was gathered together industry in our own news as we just did.
32:47And then we would sometimes have a, uh, a topic that Richard and I would talk about our guests that we would interview. And so I've been long neglecting, uh, doing this. So I finally found two good people to, who, uh, uh, can help out with it and work on it as we just demonstrated. So I thought we would have a go at restarting it again to have sort of like a weekly, what's going on in this space thing. Talk about kind of the relevant, uh, uh, VMware and Tanzu stuff that has come up in the past week or so. And then, uh, we'll probably have some guests and I, well, probably we will Ben's probably like, we're definitely going to have guests. Uh, but, uh, I'm not sure if I, if, if I'll make them, if we'll make them as separate episodes or kind of, um, what's the word merge them onto a news thing, whatever. I don't think it really matters. We'll figure it out. Um, but, but why don't, uh, why don't you introduce yourself, uh, briefly, Ed, and kind of just, uh, for, for the listener, go over who you are, what your deal is. We know you use VS code and, uh, that, that anything athletic has to be logged or it did not exist. Exactly. And I am the master of, well, I'm the master of version control. That's what I've claimed already, isn't it? But, uh, I honestly don't know if there's much more you need to know about me, right? I was, so I was an infrastructure guy. I went through the classic help desk through service support, through storage and so on. Um, and then, yeah, I was on the customer side for a long, long time. I got dragged into VMware forever back in the day. Cause I thought ESX and vMotion was magic. Um, I started blogging about that back in 2007 or eight or something like that, which hooked me into the whole VMware, both ecosystem and everything else. And eventually I ended up working here. Uh, and fast forward eight years, I'm still here, still loving it. Um, and the world has, you know, changed around me. Um, and I'm doing like everyone else trying to keep up with the, the new tech, new way of doing things, the coding I'd love to be doing more of, frankly. Um, it was a pivot in my career. That one, actually, I, my very, very first job out of university was a placement year. And I went to be a COBOL programmer, um, which dates me quite a bit, but anyway, and I turned up on day one for this insurance company in UK and they had, I don't know, 20 students.
34:52And they, when I arrived, said, you know what, we may not actually have enough COBOL jobs for everybody that we've offered a job. Do you want to do tech support instead? And that forever changed my career. So, you know, I hankered to get back to coding one day. Um, but yeah, not now I'm a very, yes, coder. Let's be fair. That's quite the switch from going from programming to, to, to support. It would be if you'd ever done much, right? You're, I was a green student. I didn't know much. So I was like, well, I've theoretically know some coding in aid or another stuff that I've done on my degree course. And I theoretically know a little bit about hardware. And then it was like, which one are you going to learn more about? Well, I, I went the infrastructure route. See that, that, that, you know, you know how I was, uh, trying to articulate how, uh, you know, you start thinking about the kernel as part of your, your middleware or your stack. And like, I, maybe, maybe you have more experience than I do, but I feel like if you're doing kind of like COBOL and mainframe programming, you're encouraged to like consider the operating system part of your application stack. Right. And so it would be more, I guess if you told the mainframe person, you're going to mess with the kernel, they would just like force you to leave the room. Yeah. Yeah. They wouldn't like that. There's, there's a different style of programming. I think that you do in, uh, that environment than, than other ones. Yeah. I just remember all mine was always higher level languages, right? I thought as time went on, the languages would get more and more abstracted. So the idea we're now stepping back towards kernel seems odd. That should have been long forgotten. You know, nobody codes in assembly language anymore. I learned that when I was like 12, I was super proud. I coded some little demo thing in assembly language. It was no use to me in future life whatsoever. Cause nobody does that anymore. Why would you bother? There's far easier ways of doing it. Um, so yeah, interesting. Everything is said, everything goes around in cycles. We forget about the kernel. And then 10 years later, we decide it's actually quite useful if we go back and revisit it and chop and change it a little bit. It's all gone web assembly. That's what's happened. Well, there you go. Yeah. That's a nice segue for a future episode. Maybe. How about, how about yourself, Ben? Tell, tell people a little bit about, about what your deal is. Well, Ed went back quite far there.
36:52So I, so I feel like I'm obliged to do the same. So, so, you know, originally I started in, uh, in sales and marketing, believe it or not, uh, direct marketing, in fact, and then, uh, managed to, uh, to, to, to get a job coding. Uh, sort of marketing databases and, and stuff like that. And then I turned that into a career in, uh, in, in coding for quite a long time. I was a Java programmer, much like yourself, Cody, but nowhere near as talented. Uh, and then, um, I spent probably about, uh, I don't know, 10 years or so as a, as an architect as well, helping folks to, uh, you know, modernize systems and integrate. So there's a, quite a lot of integration over the course of my career. I spent a fair amount of time with Java and spring and various other things. And these days now I'm, uh, I'm back into marketing and helping folks, uh, to understand the, uh, different technologies that we have and how they work and how you can get started with them. And, um, hopefully encouraging folks to try them because, uh, because I think they're really good. And I hope that others, uh, feel the same way after they've seen some of my stuff. So yeah, that's what I enjoy doing these days is trying to help other people to, um, understand what we've got and hopefully, uh, demystify it somewhat and perhaps even inspire them to try it. Yeah, you're definitely, uh, you, you've put out a lot of, uh, you're experimenting with the video formats available now in addition to the non-experimental ones. But, uh, it's, it's fun. It's always fun to see someone trying to figure out like how to use all these wacky video formats in the, in the nine 16 ratio. And, and, and figure out what's works. Cause it is, uh, you know, I, I too have done a study of all the video stuff out there and I think it is totally inconclusive about what works and doesn't. It's, uh, my fear is that it'll be the same thing as always, that it's the content that matters, which just like, that's no one can come up, come up with good content frequently enough.
38:56Like you, you only have like a couple of them. Well, maybe you have more than me, but if it relies on the content, I'm in trouble. Cause I, I've only got so much. Well, maybe the, maybe the listeners and watchers can, you know, help us out with some of this stuff. I put out very recently, I put out an, a nine by 16 video. I was following Coté's lead. Cause obviously he's the trailblazer here on this format, uh, for, uh, for the Docker files thing that we were talking about, uh, before. So, uh, so yeah, check it out on YouTube. Tell us what you think. We always need to see your comments. I think what we've been missing it, what we've been missing is adding music to it. We need to find out what the popular music is every week and put that in there. Oh, don't I have a, I have an artist in mind and I think I'm going to have to ask legal if they're like, you know, licenses a few tracks. I think about this stuff all the time, don't you just set off another, that would be unfortunate. Well, uh, yeah, I, so, so I'm Coté, I, I work on the developer advocate team, but I spend most of my time as I tell people like studying how people, how management and executives, studying the process side of things and how large organizations, uh, switch over what they do. So, uh, hints, not using, uh, CLIs very much anymore, but just talking about how, uh, people do their work and stuff like that. And, uh, so we have this, we'll have this in a, uh, uh, three exciting formats. Let's see one, just a traditional podcast. So if you go to tonsutalk.com or if you've already been subscribed and just haven't heard this in a while, you can just download those, uh, whenever we release them into your podcast player. That's how we won't go over how podcasts, I mean, if you don't know how a podcast works, it's wonderful. You subscribe to it and it gets downloaded for you. It's fun stuff, but it's only, there'll be some people right now going, what the hell? I thought they were dead. Yeah, exactly. Hopefully, hopefully that's a, that's a relief for some people. But then also, also, uh, you know, we'll, we'll do a live streaming of this, which is fun.
41:00So, uh, hopefully we'll do it, uh, like on Mondays at, uh, what time did we agree to? Is it this one? Like, I thought it was a Tuesday. I think we, no, you're right. So don't, don't listen to what I just said. We'll do things on Tuesdays at, I think, uh, 11 a.m. UK time, noon, uh, Amsterdam, you know, central European time. And so you can, uh, you can turn into the live stream for that and maybe we'll even learn. I don't know about y'all, but, but I, I don't have, I'm not good at talking with people in the stream. You're supposed to acknowledge them and say hello and do all these things, but I, I, I don't, I don't really do that. And then maybe also, since we're kind of doubling up as a podcast, it would be a little awkward, uh, to, to have that in there, but we'll figure something out. And then of course that means since it's live streamed, it's archived as a video at, uh, if you subscribe or just bookmark the VMware Tanzu YouTube channel, you can go find it there. And then with that, I think, uh, good job. You too. I think we have a first episode here. We'll be back next week, uh, to sort things out. So you want to say bye? Absolutely. Goodbye, everybody. Thanks for listening. Thanks for more thrilling news next week. Come on. Exactly. Who's proud. That's right. I'm going to do something good. That's unheard of starting. You know, yes, well, you know, and that's what I, I think, uh, that's what we're not doing today. We're starting right on time, especially I'm sure you two, uh, enjoy, uh, pre-recorded content. The thing about, the thing about pre-recorded content is it always starts right on time.