1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,140 Why don't y'all introduce yourself briefly? 2 00:00:02,220 --> 00:00:02,640 I'm Coté. 3 00:00:02,900 --> 00:00:08,200 I work here at VMware World here on the Tanzu Talk podcast. 4 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,560 How about the one with the blue shirt? 5 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:12,680 You introduce yourself briefly. 6 00:00:13,700 --> 00:00:14,100 Hi, all. 7 00:00:14,180 --> 00:00:14,700 That'll be me. 8 00:00:14,860 --> 00:00:15,680 I'm Ed Grigson. 9 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,680 Been at VMware for about eight years. 10 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,020 Bit of a mix of marketing and other, and before that, a long time on the customer side. 11 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,600 So, and that's all you need to know about me. 12 00:00:25,300 --> 00:00:27,260 And last but not least. 13 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:30,420 Hello, I'm Ben. 14 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:37,900 I work as well with Michael in the marketing team for Tanzu over at VMware. 15 00:00:38,660 --> 00:00:43,820 So what I thought we would start here, we'll go a little more in depth about ourselves and 16 00:00:43,820 --> 00:00:46,500 plans and stuff at the end so that it's not too much meta stuff. 17 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:51,600 But it's been a long time since we've had a Tanzu Talk podcast in the old format of going 18 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,460 over fun news and things like that. 19 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,020 And so that's what we'll be up to here. 20 00:00:56,500 --> 00:01:03,260 I've learned you never promise to do anything that means you will do something on a regular 21 00:01:03,260 --> 00:01:06,280 cadence because then inevitably you won't and you just do it once. 22 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,920 But we will not fail at that, will we? 23 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,260 We'll be great. 24 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:18,000 I think our enthusiasm will overcome our lifestyle of leisure, essentially, or my pull for that, 25 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:18,400 at least. 26 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:19,740 We'll find out. 27 00:01:20,060 --> 00:01:20,920 Yes, that's right. 28 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:22,100 Only the future will tell. 29 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:26,300 I mean, so far, we like hanging out. 30 00:01:26,620 --> 00:01:29,080 So yeah, that's a good omen. 31 00:01:29,500 --> 00:01:30,660 Yes, that's good. 32 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:31,160 That's good. 33 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,040 I think I like y'all's optimism. 34 00:01:34,540 --> 00:01:38,120 Hopefully it's infectious and I haven't been inoculated against it. 35 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:39,220 Don't do that. 36 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:40,840 Well, why don't we start off? 37 00:01:41,180 --> 00:01:43,940 We're going to try out an idea here. 38 00:01:44,340 --> 00:01:46,980 We're going to call it Ed's Most Thrilling News from Last Week. 39 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:52,740 It's a bit long, but I think we'll see if it might be an available domain name. 40 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,260 We might do dot limo, dot plumbing, I don't know, dot news. 41 00:01:58,260 --> 00:01:59,920 We'll have to think about that one. 42 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:06,440 So this is the week of August 1st, you know, 2022. 43 00:02:07,580 --> 00:02:10,620 And I think July was one of those months that has 31 days. 44 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:12,340 So I'm not really sure. 45 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:13,500 I can't do math that quickly. 46 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:15,580 But what do you think was fun last week? 47 00:02:15,620 --> 00:02:17,080 You keep up with the news in our sector. 48 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:18,360 What caught your eye? 49 00:02:20,420 --> 00:02:22,220 I'm not sure I'd describe any of this as thrilling. 50 00:02:22,220 --> 00:02:24,660 I guess it depends, you know, on your background and things. 51 00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:28,020 I always hear these thrilling, exciting, we're going to delight our customers. 52 00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:31,800 Yeah, you know, Microsoft released some more tech for developers. 53 00:02:32,540 --> 00:02:35,500 But basically, one of the ones that I did at least spawn thing, 54 00:02:35,580 --> 00:02:36,780 okay, that looks kind of interesting. 55 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:37,520 Where does it fit? 56 00:02:38,340 --> 00:02:40,440 I think it's probably technically two weeks ago. 57 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:42,560 I may be going outside of our remit there. 58 00:02:42,820 --> 00:02:47,780 But yeah, they released something called the Azure Developer CLI, 59 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,060 of which I suspect Microsoft already have like 15 or 20. 60 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:52,560 It's a pretty generic name. 61 00:02:52,660 --> 00:02:54,640 You know, if you Google it, you're going to get a million other things. 62 00:02:55,860 --> 00:02:59,620 But this looks, so it's A, it's like, you know, the actual incantation, 63 00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:01,140 I'm going to call it, is AZD. 64 00:03:01,340 --> 00:03:02,680 So that's your actual command line. 65 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,560 But it feels to me a bit like CF push. 66 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,500 As in, you know, the idea is, it's very much saying to developers, 67 00:03:08,740 --> 00:03:10,080 there is a ton of complexity around. 68 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,700 We've seen this in a million different areas and vendors and products. 69 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:18,560 There is a huge amount of sort of infrastructure available to developers nowadays to get stuff done. 70 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,200 But it's kind of overwhelming. 71 00:03:21,100 --> 00:03:22,920 You know, golden path, whatever you want to call it. 72 00:03:22,980 --> 00:03:26,900 This is another of Microsoft's attempts to say, we've got all this Azure stuff for you, 73 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,040 but you don't know how to use it. 74 00:03:28,100 --> 00:03:29,340 You don't know how to plumb it together. 75 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,580 There's a thousand different options and script languages. 76 00:03:33,060 --> 00:03:37,780 We're going to try and simplify it for you and bring it together into one Uber template 77 00:03:37,780 --> 00:03:44,120 where you can spin up the infrastructure, deploy your code, sort of integrate with CICD, 78 00:03:44,260 --> 00:03:46,760 but it's a single command line to do the whole thing. 79 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,160 And that's sort of in a nutshell is what they want. 80 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,920 They want you to consider that whether it's, you know, build or push or monitor, 81 00:03:55,220 --> 00:03:56,540 there's a single command. 82 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:57,780 You run it for each one. 83 00:03:58,720 --> 00:03:59,520 Pop drunk or you're done. 84 00:04:00,220 --> 00:04:04,660 And do you think the intention is that, like, it's for all of the things in Azure? 85 00:04:04,900 --> 00:04:08,600 Like, that you can get, like, kind of one unified CLI for that, 86 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:09,900 or it's just components of it? 87 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:10,920 Or, like, what do you think the skill is? 88 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:11,740 It's bits of a guess, right? 89 00:04:11,780 --> 00:04:14,100 Because nothing's ever going to cope with the whole of Azure. 90 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:15,420 It's just this huge beast. 91 00:04:15,540 --> 00:04:18,460 I mean, right now, I couldn't tell you how many Azure services there are nowadays. 92 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,740 Somewhere between 100 and 200, I would guess. 93 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,000 That's a lot of flags for a command line tool. 94 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:24,920 It is. 95 00:04:25,020 --> 00:04:26,420 This covers four services today. 96 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,340 So, you know, they're starting small as they have to. 97 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,140 I don't know if I've got a note of which four it was. 98 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:32,000 I should have, you would think. 99 00:04:32,140 --> 00:04:32,620 There we go. 100 00:04:32,620 --> 00:04:39,120 So, Azure App Service, Azure Functions, Azure Container Apps, and Azure Static Web Apps. 101 00:04:39,820 --> 00:04:52,460 So, those are the four that right now you could write a template for that would spin up those services in the background and then deploy your code on straight onto them and then potentially be able to monitor them as well all through this new CLI. 102 00:04:53,740 --> 00:05:00,380 So, you know, it's interesting in that there's, A, I have not kept up with every Azure service because it'd be a full-time job and I can't do all that. 103 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:07,480 So, I look at a lot of these and think already that still feels, even though it's four of a small subset, which do I use? 104 00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:12,220 And, you know, I assume the people using it are more familiar with how that would work. 105 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,240 It supports a variety of different languages. 106 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,620 It's interesting because I guess also a lot of my time is spent looking at Kubernetes stuff. 107 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,700 And I've been learning a lot of that over the last couple of years. 108 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:22,660 And this one is not Kubernetes-centric. 109 00:05:23,220 --> 00:05:25,580 You know, right now, AKS isn't even on that list. 110 00:05:25,900 --> 00:05:26,480 It's on the roadmap. 111 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:27,640 It's going to get planned for. 112 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:33,860 But you couldn't right now spin up an AKS cluster in the background and deploy your code to it using this tool. 113 00:05:35,020 --> 00:05:38,480 I'd imagine that's going to be pretty much next up on the list, but not yet. 114 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,640 And that's, you know, I've seen lots of other companies coming in. 115 00:05:40,660 --> 00:05:45,320 And one of the other bits of news we can talk about soon is to do with another company who are sort of targeting that. 116 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:47,060 This one, doesn't it? 117 00:05:47,060 --> 00:05:48,560 It's a bit more broad-based. 118 00:05:48,820 --> 00:05:50,700 You could, you know, I suppose you can see it. 119 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:51,540 There's all these services. 120 00:05:51,980 --> 00:05:55,440 They have more of a problem than some others because it is a build-your-own-tool care. 121 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:56,220 All the clouds are. 122 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:02,660 They need a bit more logic to stitch the services, the development, and make it work a bit more seamlessly. 123 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:09,700 Yeah, it seems like if you have a bevy of services, if that's still a word, like a whole bunch of things, 124 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:15,040 having a, being able to integrate to the command line, so to speak, is usually the best option. 125 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:21,160 It's just sort of to be able to reach in there instead of bouncing between a bunch of UIs, which, and then, I mean, 126 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:26,740 hopefully you follow the old patterns of being able to pipe things together, all the Linux-based ways of doing things. 127 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:32,960 Now, now, Ben, you run Zoom on Linux, so you, you must know a lot about command lines. 128 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:45,800 You know, I think, I think maybe for just for like a contextual sort of thing, like, do you think, do you think nowadays in like the cloud land, command lines are done well and pervasive enough? 129 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:51,740 Or is it, or is like doing things through the command line, like a lagging sort of developer experience thing? 130 00:06:52,300 --> 00:06:57,260 Or like, does it, is it usually done first or second, or like what, where are we? 131 00:06:57,340 --> 00:07:02,900 Like, have we perfected the command line interface for developers to the cloud, or is there still work to be done there? 132 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:06,880 I think, I think some experiences are very, very good. 133 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:15,520 I like the, the language now used in command lines has changed, you know, a great deal over the years. 134 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:26,280 And the point that we're at now where it's sort of conversational almost is very easy to work with, you know, and it makes command lines much more accessible, much more powerful. 135 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:40,320 And Kube CTL is a great example of that, you know, you can, you know exactly what, what, what it is that you're after doing, you're doing a get or a describe or whatever, there's certain standardization to it, but it's also very pluggable. 136 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:47,720 So I think, I think they've come a long way from, from, from, from where they were, you know, many years ago. 137 00:07:48,420 --> 00:07:56,960 And they definitely have a, a really valid part of the, of the experience, you know, most of the web runs headless anyways. 138 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:16,480 So you kind of have to be, you know, have some competence, I think, in, in the world of command lines in order to, to be able to survive that sort of cloud native push and the, the, the, the modernization, the transformation demanded by the cloud. 139 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,900 I think it's, yeah, it's kind of like an essential skillset, I think. 140 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:21,220 Yeah. 141 00:08:21,340 --> 00:08:22,640 You know, I, I haven't thought about that. 142 00:08:22,740 --> 00:08:25,680 I, you know, I, I, I must, what's the word they use? 143 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,780 They like the phrase that full transparency. 144 00:08:27,940 --> 00:08:30,220 I, I don't really ever use the command line anymore. 145 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,720 I just, you know, make slides and other goofy things. 146 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:42,080 But when, when I do see command line things, they are a lot more, uh, humane is the wrong word, but they're a lot more human, just like the, the commands are very descriptive. 147 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:48,920 And, uh, there's a lot less little double hyphens and weird things than, uh, back in my day, which, which was nice and relaxing. 148 00:08:49,380 --> 00:08:53,040 Have you seen the great stuff that you can do with slides on the command line? 149 00:08:53,260 --> 00:08:53,840 Oh yeah. 150 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:54,020 Yeah. 151 00:08:54,020 --> 00:09:03,080 I, I have, I have, I have, I, I have seen a little bit, I forget the name of the, there's some JavaScript framework that some people use to do some, some slide thing. 152 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:12,560 And then one day I'm going to be forced to learn how to use like Git in real detail, because I'm just going to be collaborating with someone and they're going to be like, you gotta, you gotta go do your slides over here. 153 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:17,340 And I'll say like, okay, give me a couple of days to go take a course and figure out how to do this. 154 00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:18,900 Oh yeah, that Git is a challenge. 155 00:09:19,020 --> 00:09:19,160 Yeah. 156 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:20,760 I I'm challenged by it regularly. 157 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,640 It's, uh, it's, it's not the easiest in the world. 158 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,360 It's not because of the command line though. 159 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,440 It's because of version control. 160 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:28,240 Yeah. 161 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:30,960 It's complicated on its own. 162 00:09:31,060 --> 00:09:32,680 This is, this is true. 163 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,980 Well, well, Ed, what, I think there's two other pieces of thrilling news news from last week. 164 00:09:37,100 --> 00:09:39,820 What, uh, you want to just give us a little, little, little taste of it? 165 00:09:40,380 --> 00:09:40,680 Yep. 166 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:53,620 Oh, well, so the other one, which I alluded to before was Morantis, um, have acquired a company called Amazee.io, um, which wasn't one I'd heard of before, uh, who build themselves as a zero ops application delivery hub for Kubernetes. 167 00:09:53,620 --> 00:09:58,260 So I said, so this one is all Kubernetes centric and Morantis obviously used to be sort of open stack. 168 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:04,600 I think still are, um, but also have the, the Kubernetes platform that this is now going to hook into. 169 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:17,320 And the idea behind this acquisition is that again, focusing on developers and making life easier for them and how to stitch together both their code and infrastructure and coming back to our lovely CLI conversation there and sort of Git ops. 170 00:10:17,540 --> 00:10:25,740 Um, the idea will be, the idea will be they check code into a, a Git repository, which triggers automatically the building up of the required infrastructure in the background. 171 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,760 And that's what Amazee, which is based on an open source Lagoon project does. 172 00:10:29,860 --> 00:10:37,820 So it will look at the code and fire up whether that's Kubernetes clusters, extra namespaces and deploy your code into it and then help you monitor it. 173 00:10:38,060 --> 00:10:49,220 So again, that same focus on making it just quick and easy for developers to spin stuff out without having to learn Kubernetes, I think is the key, at least in their case, certainly, um, we all know there's still a learning curve in there. 174 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:51,820 Um, and that's something that obviously we try and address as well. 175 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,580 And this is sort of Morantity's, um, bid to get more involved in that, that side of things, I guess. 176 00:11:00,260 --> 00:11:01,620 And then how about the last piece? 177 00:11:01,740 --> 00:11:02,420 Oh, go ahead, Ben. 178 00:11:02,820 --> 00:11:09,260 Well, I, I, you know, and this is, this also speaks to the sort of general push to DevOps, doesn't it? 179 00:11:09,260 --> 00:11:19,040 And the, the idea of having, um, you know, your, your infrastructure as, uh, something that is version controlled and is changed via version control. 180 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:29,740 And I think, um, it's, it's recent to me and I've not really experienced that until I started working more on, um, on things like, uh, the terms of application platforms. 181 00:11:29,740 --> 00:11:33,700 So, um, I, I, I find that absolutely fascinating. 182 00:11:33,700 --> 00:11:42,620 I'm very, uh, interested to see how many different products there are in this space and what, what they bring to the table. 183 00:11:42,620 --> 00:11:44,680 That's unique about each particular product. 184 00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:54,900 Can't say I know a great deal about this one, Ed, but, um, but it sounds like, um, more momentum in that direction, which, uh, which is clearly a thing, right? 185 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:55,800 Yeah. 186 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:57,560 And it's all around again, it's making it easier. 187 00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:02,080 And I think you can look back, you know, 10 years plus to everyone, I mean, longer than that, right? 188 00:12:02,140 --> 00:12:07,520 But everyone's been trying to get out of the way of developers and say, you guys do your things and it just works for you. 189 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:14,740 And whether it was ideal back in the day of sort of standardizing that and then going, right, we will just make sure this is operonized and as efficient as possible. 190 00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:23,960 And now it's obviously gone to code and sort of everything is code and GitOps, everything becoming more and more self-service because suddenly there's more infrastructure. 191 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:25,160 It used to be quite simple, right? 192 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:26,420 Just, oh, you need a server. 193 00:12:26,580 --> 00:12:27,580 Then you need a VM, right? 194 00:12:27,620 --> 00:12:28,780 That's fairly quick and easy. 195 00:12:28,860 --> 00:12:29,280 We'll do that. 196 00:12:29,380 --> 00:12:30,020 We'll hand over VM. 197 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:30,460 We're done. 198 00:12:31,020 --> 00:12:35,900 Now there's a million different building blocks and suddenly it's more complex to then get back out of the way. 199 00:12:36,060 --> 00:12:41,120 Well, this extra stuff's come in, even though it's more power, more choice, potentially a lot more you can do with it. 200 00:12:41,860 --> 00:12:48,780 And it definitely does feel like momentum everywhere is towards how you bridge that gap, you know, the developer gap, whatever everyone's going to call it. 201 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,260 But there's an interesting push to that direction. 202 00:12:51,380 --> 00:12:57,580 And as an infrastructure guy myself, I find learning that, all that stuff, you know, like you were saying, Michael, getting back to CLIs. 203 00:12:58,420 --> 00:13:02,700 And when I did all my sort of CKA stuff, I actually really enjoyed getting back to command lines. 204 00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:07,300 But it had been a long time since I'd done it a lot because I did a bit of coding back in the day. 205 00:13:07,420 --> 00:13:09,940 And everyone said Visual Basic was going to take over the world. 206 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,560 And then PowerShell was going to take over the world. 207 00:13:13,380 --> 00:13:15,200 And they all kind of stayed somewhere in the background. 208 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:15,800 You learn them. 209 00:13:16,060 --> 00:13:19,900 But, you know, and here we are again, the third generation of now you must code. 210 00:13:20,020 --> 00:13:23,060 Coding is everywhere, except it kind of is more this time around. 211 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:31,660 It's sort of, maybe instead of taking over the world, it's more, you know, you've got the, you've got like the Star Trek political universe and the Star Wars political universe. 212 00:13:31,660 --> 00:13:34,380 And the Star Wars political universe is very zero sum. 213 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,520 It's like either the Empire is in charge or the Rebels or whatever they call themselves are in charge. 214 00:13:39,940 --> 00:13:48,100 Whereas in the Star Trek universe, there's multiple like political outfits and races, like in planets, like it's all, it's fragmented. 215 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,060 And so, you know, I feel like maybe IT is more like the Star Trek universe. 216 00:13:52,060 --> 00:13:54,760 It's never like, you know, one thing takes over fully. 217 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:56,620 There may be certain concepts. 218 00:13:56,860 --> 00:14:08,000 Like, for example, we were just discussing, like, you know, I've been developing, I wouldn't call it a theory, but just some idle thinking that basically, and I don't know, you'll probably see stuff like this as well. 219 00:14:08,060 --> 00:14:17,940 But it'd be interesting ongoing to see it, that basically, I don't know, every five or 10 years, we kind of like re-implement older ideas to make them better. 220 00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:26,100 Like, a lot of what we were describing there is related to, whatever we used to call it, infrastructure as code. 221 00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:27,720 Was that IAC? 222 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:33,100 There was even some abbreviation for it, which is, you know, like an early DevOps thought about automating things. 223 00:14:33,260 --> 00:14:38,920 And now, and it was, again, on behalf of developers, and now we're automating stuff again on behalf of developers. 224 00:14:38,980 --> 00:14:45,660 And I think, I think it's tied to, again, only for good as we evolve the platform. 225 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:51,080 It'd be easy to be cynical about it and be an old, old person and be like, ah, you kids doing the same thing over again. 226 00:14:51,260 --> 00:15:01,940 But like, I think, I think, you know, we get a better chunk of infrastructure and then that requires a new stack of automation on top, which also kind of drives new, new UI stuff, which totally cool. 227 00:15:01,940 --> 00:15:09,160 But speaking of, speaking of new, new, new, better things, there's a bit of service mesh stuff to, to, to touch on as well. 228 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:09,400 Right. 229 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,780 I think is the, the last item there is. 230 00:15:11,860 --> 00:15:12,120 Yeah. 231 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,980 So that was the other one I'd picked up on, which was, um, Cilium by iSurveillant. 232 00:15:15,980 --> 00:15:20,160 Well, it's obviously the open source and iSurveillant do the kind of, you know, the enterprise grade sold version. 233 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:27,180 Um, but they've just released a new version, which interestingly was 1.12, yet actually, when you look at the features, you know, it could have been a V2 release. 234 00:15:27,180 --> 00:15:29,580 There's a huge amount of extra functionality in there. 235 00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:33,920 And the big one, I guess, is that they're now including their own service mesh in there. 236 00:15:34,340 --> 00:15:43,300 Um, there's been a bit of a, I'd almost say a war of words, but sort of everyone's been watching this trend of service mesh has always had a challenge with complexity and all these things. 237 00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:56,800 It's the fact you have to deploy sidecars and then you've got EBVF coming along, um, which is this whole, you can embed a ton of sort of functionality into the kernel and potentially skip a load of the complexity, certainly service mesh for security, some other areas. 238 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:03,460 And psyllium's kind of led the way that they've been the, the trendsetters and saying, Hey, this might be a better way of doing things. 239 00:16:03,820 --> 00:16:05,720 Um, so it'd be interesting to see how right they are. 240 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,480 You know, there's, there's two sides to every argument, if not more. 241 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,100 Um, but this certainly is a big release for them. 242 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:13,020 There's a load of extra functionality in there. 243 00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:14,600 You know, networking is not my strength. 244 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,880 Um, so I understand where they're adding in bits. 245 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,460 I, I can certainly read their arguments and say it's easier, better, more performant. 246 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,920 You can do some super magic source by being, having this access to the kernel. 247 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:32,840 Um, but it'd be interesting to see where that goes, I guess, you know, they've got a lot of, a lot of good people over there, some very good XVM where people over there as well. 248 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,760 So an interesting one to watch. 249 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,880 I mean, what do you, what do you guys know on the networking side? 250 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,280 What's your thoughts on eBPF and all that evolution? 251 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:50,000 Honestly, it goes over my head a lot of the times, but, uh, I, if we can rewind a second. 252 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,820 So, so, you know, the service mesh thing with the side cars, that's been the way that it's been done for a long time, isn't it? 253 00:16:55,820 --> 00:17:08,880 That's been the sort of, uh, collective best efforts thinking on how to achieve that sort of cross-cutting concern next to all your apps deployed via some sort of control plane. 254 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:18,800 So, here instead, we've got a technology that is baking that into the kernel instead as part of the operating system. 255 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,640 So, you don't have to do that anymore. 256 00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:22,900 Is that what, is that how it works? 257 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:23,020 Roughly, yeah. 258 00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:23,920 Yeah. 259 00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:35,240 When I first read about that, I was a bit confused because I've always, my, you know, my historic doing a degree in computer science was always like, the kernel is this tiny, tiny piece of code that is uber-jealously guarded. 260 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,360 Because obviously if, if something gets into your kernel and you don't want there, you're in a world of pain. 261 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:40,000 Yeah. 262 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,480 So then saying, you know what, we'll take all that code you've written out in the real world, and we'll just stick it in the kernel. 263 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:45,600 Sounds like a disaster. 264 00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:50,380 Sounds like, no, no, kernel, you know, kernel maintainers are, they're like the elite guys. 265 00:17:50,380 --> 00:17:51,640 They take forever doing all this. 266 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,440 If it's not approved by Linus, then it doesn't go in the kernel. 267 00:17:54,620 --> 00:18:01,140 So the idea that you're like, hey, you know what, take your old code out there, just stick it in here, and it'll suddenly be better seemed a bit weird to me. 268 00:18:02,180 --> 00:18:10,860 But I do get the idea that if it is appropriately vetted and only has certain remits, it can be, because it's closer to the kernel, it's just more efficient. 269 00:18:11,020 --> 00:18:21,500 And it can do more things without having to say, you know what, run a sidecar in every instance, because the kernel does become at least just central point of control, I suppose. 270 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:28,220 So it gives people a new way to say, actually, here's a central point, we can go and check everything, instead of having to distribute it around the world. 271 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:33,060 Now, I'm sure there's a million pros and cons for all this, right, whether it's design, sort of the architecture. 272 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:45,720 But I guess, as a consumer of this stuff, and I'm not a networking guy, but if I was having to deploy a service mesh, and that meant doubling up my containers everywhere, or didn't, if this was just simpler, and I can almost say, someone else worry about that. 273 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:52,700 You know, whether it's iSurveillance, whatever, you've written stuff, it's in the kernel, does some magic, don't know how, but it does, and it makes it simpler for me. 274 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:53,920 Happy days. 275 00:18:54,640 --> 00:19:03,620 It sounds like a super cheap way to, you know, cut down on resource use, but I'm really interested how they're going to deal with things like updates. 276 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,660 Yeah, and CVEs, and that sort of fascinating stuff. 277 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:09,620 Yeah, sounds really good. 278 00:19:10,140 --> 00:19:17,160 Yeah, you know, I was, well, I guess this isn't entirely true, but when I was aware of being a programmer, I was raised as a Java programmer. 279 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:24,780 And so I always hear, like, you know, I don't know, once you start messing around with the kernel and the networking, I feel like you've been a bad programmer. 280 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,240 Like, you're not supposed to, like, break out of the upper layers of things. 281 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:48,720 However, you know, it may be philosophically, if what you mean by putting stuff in the kernel is just, like, messing around with the operating system in one of the containers that your application runs in, then at some point, just the operating system isn't this, like, sacred thing at the bottom of the foundation that you can't mess with. 282 00:19:48,860 --> 00:19:52,940 It's just, like, another piece of, like, your application layer that you can do whatever you like with. 283 00:19:53,260 --> 00:20:02,800 And then if you have, like, four more layers of that underneath your application, which seems like madness, but here we are, then, you know, do whatever, right? 284 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:10,360 And that, it seems like that, that sort of, like, approach of, like, as we were talking about, like, the kernel is, like, this little foundational thing that we don't mess with. 285 00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:13,160 Then it just becomes another, like, malleable layer in the stack. 286 00:20:13,380 --> 00:20:17,060 And maybe that, like, what's the word? 287 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,860 I get my C words, like, coherent and comprehensive, but there's some word that is, like, you know, it's whatever. 288 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,100 Instead of, you know, there's a kernel at the bottom that's, like, that little, small, secure one. 289 00:20:28,140 --> 00:20:31,040 And everything up above it is just, you know, whatever. 290 00:20:31,820 --> 00:20:32,220 Packages. 291 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:32,900 Yeah. 292 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:33,360 Fed money. 293 00:20:34,060 --> 00:20:34,260 Yeah. 294 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:35,860 Who knows? 295 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,600 There was a lot of chats years ago, wasn't there, about micro kernels. 296 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:52,380 You know, this was also the idea of modifying the kernel to strip out a whole bunch of stuff that you don't need in order to reduce the security footprint and to also increase the boot times and reduce memory overhead and that sort of stuff. 297 00:20:53,240 --> 00:21:04,340 Kind of went quiet, but I definitely remember there being, you know, talk of having this idea of a malleable, you know, not a kernel as a fixed thing, but a kernel as a flexible thing. 298 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,280 So, yeah, really interesting stuff. 299 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,420 That was a good trend, wasn't it? 300 00:21:09,660 --> 00:21:15,280 That was like when Docker came along, everyone went, hey, Docker's idea is to just strip everything down to what you need for that app. 301 00:21:15,820 --> 00:21:20,100 Can we not extend that all the way to the kernel and go, we don't need a multi-purpose kernel either. 302 00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:24,860 This one just needs to do these things, wouldn't that be the logical endpoint for it? 303 00:21:25,220 --> 00:21:30,480 Only what's needed, the austere cloud, just going back to what's required. 304 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:50,100 Well, so, you know, also since last we recorded, which was never in the past few weeks, we had a large release of one of our, I don't know, one of our major suites, if you will, that does a lot of these things we were talking about, the Tanzu application platform, version 1.2. 305 00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:57,420 Now, I don't know if, if Ed is going to make one of his rulings, was that more like a 2.0 release or a 0.2? 306 00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:04,680 I think, I think one of the, one of the things we found is whenever we want a ruling on a dot release versus a point release, we now have a go-to source. 307 00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:06,260 Someone who, who can. 308 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,660 I think for legal reasons, we'll stick to what we said. 309 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:11,160 Yeah, no, exactly. 310 00:22:11,580 --> 00:22:16,660 But, you know, it's always, it's always, it's always good to know that we, we have a source if we want to discuss. 311 00:22:16,660 --> 00:22:21,340 Is this, is this really like a 0.1 or a 0.1.2 A? 312 00:22:21,740 --> 00:22:23,640 What, and is it an A or a B? 313 00:22:23,860 --> 00:22:25,220 Like, what, what are we doing here? 314 00:22:25,420 --> 00:22:27,360 Are we back in the Star Trek thing again? 315 00:22:27,420 --> 00:22:30,520 Because then you have the Enterprise 1A and 1B and all that. 316 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,520 Yeah, so the inscrutable star dates. 317 00:22:32,940 --> 00:22:35,900 They're just like, we can figure those out. 318 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:36,740 But now. 319 00:22:37,180 --> 00:22:39,920 Just coming back to that though, Michael, the whole Star Trek thing. 320 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,260 Just remember that in Star Trek, in order to fix anything, they blow up the Enterprise. 321 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:45,660 Oh, that's true. 322 00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:46,480 That's basically how they fix it. 323 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:47,800 How are we going to fix this? 324 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:48,980 Let's blow up the Enterprise. 325 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:50,280 And so, yeah. 326 00:22:50,780 --> 00:22:52,820 Well, immutable infrastructure. 327 00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:54,160 That's exactly how it should be. 328 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:59,160 I think, I think that's this, I mean, just to, just to, to get like too deeply philosophical 329 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:04,440 again, I think you would have a good paper there about the, the, the Star Trek universe's 330 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:05,920 position on Theseus's ship. 331 00:23:06,220 --> 00:23:10,420 Because if they've blown up the Enterprise many times, not only have they taken it apart 332 00:23:10,420 --> 00:23:13,240 and replaced it, they've just obliterated it, but it's still the Enterprise. 333 00:23:13,460 --> 00:23:17,640 So there's a definitive answer in the, the Star Trek universe to that, to that problem. 334 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,260 You know, to, to, to also support the metaphor, it's got a lot of modernization built 335 00:23:23,260 --> 00:23:25,220 in to that particular universe. 336 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,000 They modernize every couple of years, don't they? 337 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:28,700 Yeah. 338 00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:29,020 Yeah. 339 00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:34,480 The, the, the, the Enterprise is just an idea, a logos, if you will, in Scotty's head. 340 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:34,800 Brand. 341 00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:39,300 And so it always exists as long as he does or transmits it to someone else. 342 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:40,560 Anyhow. 343 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,120 Well, now you've done several videos, uh, uh, kind of highlighting things in the 344 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,840 Tanzu application platform, uh, 1.2, Ben. 345 00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:51,080 What are, what are your, what are some, some notable things you like in this release? 346 00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:54,320 Uh, quite a lot of stuff actually. 347 00:23:54,320 --> 00:24:01,640 So, so I, I like the fact that now the, um, the IDE experience, uh, so, you know, developers 348 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:09,100 working in their IDE can go all the way from create through update debugging, uh, all the 349 00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:13,040 way through to, um, deleting applications all on the platform. 350 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,940 So it means you don't have to leave your IDE for anything. 351 00:24:15,940 --> 00:24:20,320 And I've been using this quite a lot this past few weeks as I'm, uh, in the process of 352 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:26,700 putting together my talk for, um, uh, explore, uh, 2022, which will happen in about a month's 353 00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:26,940 time. 354 00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:32,260 So I've been using this, uh, this feature, you know, firsthand and it's great. 355 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,400 It's really powerful. 356 00:24:33,540 --> 00:24:39,060 You can, you can go in there and use the accelerators that are already in the Tanzu application platform 357 00:24:39,060 --> 00:24:42,960 to create your, um, you know, your code, uh, project. 358 00:24:43,020 --> 00:24:48,280 You can push that project straight to the platform without having to check it in or, or, you know, 359 00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:50,020 formalize it in some way. 360 00:24:50,220 --> 00:24:54,000 You can run it, you can debug it, you can even change it live. 361 00:24:54,140 --> 00:24:57,600 And then when you're done, you can delete the workload and it's gone again. 362 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,880 And that's, well, you don't have to leave your IDE. 363 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,400 So productivity is very high in, in, you know, working in that way. 364 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:06,300 So I like that. 365 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:11,620 So that's one of the major sort of, um, uh, touch points for 1.2 is the fact that you can 366 00:25:11,620 --> 00:25:15,000 go all the way through that life cycle inside your IDE. 367 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,660 Um, there's loads of others as well. 368 00:25:17,780 --> 00:25:22,640 I know, um, there's a really good video out there by my colleague Miles, which is all about 369 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,540 the, uh, GitOps flow that has been introduced in 1.2. 370 00:25:26,540 --> 00:25:34,180 So you can have things like, um, uh, the platform create, um, change requests for you and, and 371 00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:40,100 check them into, uh, into, into Git and then have those flow through to, um, your different, 372 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:44,040 uh, types of clusters, whether it's your production cluster or your staging cluster or whatever. 373 00:25:44,420 --> 00:25:46,660 Um, that's also really, really powerful. 374 00:25:46,940 --> 00:25:49,280 Um, there's a whole bunch of other stuff as well. 375 00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:53,040 I'll, uh, tell you a few of the highlights from the, uh, from the list. 376 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,140 If you give us a second, uh, we've got air gap as well. 377 00:25:57,140 --> 00:26:03,220 So, um, you know, you can install the whole platform in an internet free environment, which 378 00:26:03,220 --> 00:26:09,100 is pretty powerful if you're, uh, you know, sovereign, uh, concerns, for example, uh, the 379 00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:10,340 sorts of concerns that you have. 380 00:26:10,340 --> 00:26:14,020 So you don't need an internet connection to, uh, to install it anymore. 381 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,440 Um, we've got more support coming along for more IDEs as well. 382 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,460 So IntelliJ is getting a similar plugin to the one that we have for VS code. 383 00:26:22,460 --> 00:26:23,240 That's really good. 384 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:30,200 Um, really basic, but quite fun is if you've already built a whole bunch of applications 385 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:35,360 and you're used to creating, um, containers using Docker files. 386 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:39,420 So if you normally use Docker file and you have a Docker file description of that container, 387 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:46,380 we can now take that Docker file, um, uh, description and build that Docker file for you, uh, that 388 00:26:46,380 --> 00:26:52,940 Docker, uh, image for you on the platform using an integration, um, with, uh, uh, an open 389 00:26:52,940 --> 00:26:56,540 source piece called Kaneko, uh, which is really good. 390 00:26:56,820 --> 00:27:02,600 So you don't even need to, um, you know, can bring along your existing code with the existing 391 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,880 Docker file, give it to the platform. 392 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,080 The platform will build that into a Docker image for you and run it as a workload, which 393 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,000 is, which is also really, really good. 394 00:27:11,620 --> 00:27:13,780 And we have some new stuff with AWS as well. 395 00:27:13,780 --> 00:27:20,680 My, um, my colleague, um, Ryan, uh, did a great video on that, uh, which is, uh, basically 396 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,380 we're, we're now in the AWS marketplace. 397 00:27:23,380 --> 00:27:28,120 So you can go into the AWS marketplace and you can choose to create a Tanzu application 398 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:34,120 platform there, and it will go through a whole sort of install a script for you and create 399 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:40,260 all the things that you need for your Tanzu application platform to, uh, to spin it up in 400 00:27:40,260 --> 00:27:44,940 AWS with all the sort of local AWS features like ECR, et cetera. 401 00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:47,440 So those are the highlights, I think. 402 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,660 As, as I was watching the, uh, I think you mentioned it, but like kind of a, a demo of 403 00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:55,880 the supply chain stuff where, you know, there's integrations to, to, to sneak and some other 404 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,460 things like that. 405 00:27:56,460 --> 00:28:02,200 Like, uh, you, you, I was thinking like it is, uh, especially when you can bring things 406 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,100 into your ID, like you were saying, it starts to, it makes it easier for a developer to think 407 00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:12,200 about all that infrastructure stuff as part of their application and kind of like, think 408 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,940 about how they're programming the way that their application is built. 409 00:28:14,940 --> 00:28:17,440 It's not some sort of like separate tool chain that they have. 410 00:28:17,820 --> 00:28:23,040 I don't know if that's the effect that will happen, but like, uh, definitely like, if you 411 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,380 want your developers, this is going to sound ridiculous now that I've said it out loud in 412 00:28:26,380 --> 00:28:30,380 my head, but like, if, if you want developers to start paying attention to something, it's 413 00:28:30,380 --> 00:28:34,980 good to get it in front of them instead of, instead of being in a, in a different like 414 00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:40,180 tool area, so to speak, or a different UI or something, but to kind of have it, uh, in 415 00:28:40,180 --> 00:28:45,040 their primary workspace, uh, I guess, literally speaking, even though that's a metaphor. 416 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:50,460 Well, look, if you, if you compare it to what normally happens in the world of Kubernetes, 417 00:28:50,460 --> 00:28:54,740 you know, I, I've, I developed applications against Kubernetes and, and work with clients 418 00:28:54,740 --> 00:28:57,000 on, uh, similar problems as well. 419 00:28:57,340 --> 00:29:00,720 And oh my word, there's a lot of work to do. 420 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:07,400 You know, it's a, it's a, a YAML nightmare where you've got to describe all this stuff just 421 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,480 to get your one tiny workload and actually run on that platform and be, you know, maintained 422 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:13,340 by that platform. 423 00:29:13,340 --> 00:29:16,340 There's a whole bunch of busy work that you have to do. 424 00:29:17,060 --> 00:29:23,540 I'm genuinely enjoying the hell out of not having to do any of that because it was never 425 00:29:23,540 --> 00:29:25,620 adding much value to what I was doing. 426 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:32,420 So the fact that I can go into the idea and just say, create me this Java app and run it 427 00:29:32,420 --> 00:29:34,320 over there on Kubernetes for me. 428 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:35,260 And that's it. 429 00:29:35,380 --> 00:29:38,720 I mean, that's literally all I did was say, give me that run it. 430 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,840 There is very, very liberating and, uh, it saves me a lot of work. 431 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,460 So yeah, I'm very happy with that. 432 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,760 You want to, you want to say, you want to save the, save the complicated things for when 433 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,520 you're making like enchiladas and just to have everything else to be pre-made for you. 434 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,360 But I was interrupting you at you're, you're going to say, I was just going to say, so for 435 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,900 me, VS code, my analogy, which is not as good as your Star Trek, and I'm sure it's like, 436 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,160 I do quite a lot of fitness stuff, particularly for our Olympics stuff we're doing internally. 437 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:04,360 Right. 438 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,340 But if it doesn't happen in Strava, if you haven't logged that activity in Strava, everyone's 439 00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:11,340 like, didn't happen, you know, made it up, et cetera. 440 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:12,840 For me, that's VS code. 441 00:30:13,020 --> 00:30:16,640 You know, if you talk to develop it, if it didn't happen in VS code, didn't happen. 442 00:30:16,700 --> 00:30:17,240 No interested. 443 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,460 And everything I've done is all VS code. 444 00:30:19,460 --> 00:30:22,540 So the more things get integrated and everything kind of is now, right? 445 00:30:22,540 --> 00:30:23,960 It's like, I'm in VS code. 446 00:30:23,980 --> 00:30:25,320 Can I click a button and do it here? 447 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:26,620 If so, brilliant. 448 00:30:26,660 --> 00:30:28,740 If not, no interested job done. 449 00:30:29,580 --> 00:30:29,840 Yeah. 450 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,400 So the fact we're, we're integrated there now is a very good thing. 451 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,060 I feel, I feel like the longer I talk with you two, I'm going to, I'm going to get 452 00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:38,840 motivated to actually like, uh, do some programming again. 453 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:39,840 That'll be great. 454 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,720 This V V I'm not going to make a, this year's almost more than half done. 455 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,000 So it's not going to be a calendar year, 2023 goal or whatever year this is. 456 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,560 No, wait, this is 2022. 457 00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:50,440 See? 458 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:51,060 Yeah. 459 00:30:51,060 --> 00:30:52,120 So it will be that. 460 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,060 I don't know, but we're in fiscal 2023, right? 461 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:55,780 Yeah. 462 00:30:55,860 --> 00:30:56,080 Yeah. 463 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:56,520 That's. 464 00:30:56,820 --> 00:30:57,300 There you go. 465 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:58,320 See, I got it mixed up. 466 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:04,940 I got the wrong why, uh, anyhow, well, I, I had, I had some, uh, some, some plans to 467 00:31:04,940 --> 00:31:08,900 have some backstage conversation, but I think, I think we, we had some sufficient conversation 468 00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:11,320 and also my son is trying to become a guest star here. 469 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:18,180 Uh, but I, I think, I think maybe we'll, we'll, uh, carry the, the backstage discussion 470 00:31:18,180 --> 00:31:20,160 over to, uh, to another episode. 471 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,700 And just as, as a brief thing, before we, uh, go to some introductions, like I was saying, 472 00:31:25,180 --> 00:31:29,380 uh, you know, we mentioned service mesh a little bit and we're, we're going to have one 473 00:31:29,380 --> 00:31:34,000 of our coworkers or an on to talk about not only service mesh, but security and Kubernetes. 474 00:31:34,660 --> 00:31:37,120 Uh, we'll see when that comes up sometime very soon. 475 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,900 And also you mentioned VMware explore bin, which is always a good reminder that I too should 476 00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:43,040 work on my presentations. 477 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:49,960 Now we, I'm actually doing two and we sent in slides, which in theory means that I'm fully 478 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:50,740 ready to go. 479 00:31:50,860 --> 00:31:52,820 Uh, so I'm glad I'm ready to go. 480 00:31:52,820 --> 00:31:58,000 That's a, that's a relief, uh, that I'm totally finished anyways. 481 00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:03,160 Uh, but that is going to be, uh, August 29th to September 1st, uh, which, which will be, 482 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:03,880 uh, fun. 483 00:32:04,180 --> 00:32:07,960 But if you go to, I think if you just search for VMware Explorer, it used to be called VMworld. 484 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,160 Uh, you can find it now. 485 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,380 I think, uh, that, that, no, no, I'm still here. 486 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:13,920 I'm still here. 487 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,040 That said, so I want, here's some introductory stuff. 488 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,760 So, you know, we, uh, we here at, uh, 489 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:25,520 VMware Tanzu and then a pivotal, like I've, I've hosted a podcast for us for, for many, 490 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:26,180 many years. 491 00:32:26,180 --> 00:32:30,740 And the most recent version of it is, uh, that I think we did for the past three or four years. 492 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,120 I guess it'd be three. 493 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:37,000 Like, uh, it was called, uh, Tanzu talk with our, our, our former coworker, Richard Sirotter. 494 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:47,660 We would come on about every week, except when I was busy or slacking off and, uh, go over a little bit of news, uh, that was gathered together industry in our own news as we just did. 495 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:53,340 And then we would sometimes have a, uh, a topic that Richard and I would talk about our guests that we would interview. 496 00:32:53,340 --> 00:32:56,140 And so I've been long neglecting, uh, doing this. 497 00:32:56,140 --> 00:33:02,300 So I finally found two good people to, who, uh, uh, can help out with it and work on it as we just demonstrated. 498 00:33:02,540 --> 00:33:07,680 So I thought we would have a go at restarting it again to have sort of like a weekly, what's going on in this space thing. 499 00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:13,460 Talk about kind of the relevant, uh, uh, VMware and Tanzu stuff that has come up in the past week or so. 500 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:21,040 And then, uh, we'll probably have some guests and I, well, probably we will Ben's probably like, we're definitely going to have guests. 501 00:33:21,260 --> 00:33:30,620 Uh, but, uh, I'm not sure if I, if, if I'll make them, if we'll make them as separate episodes or kind of, um, what's the word merge them onto a news thing, whatever. 502 00:33:30,620 --> 00:33:31,780 I don't think it really matters. 503 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:32,840 We'll figure it out. 504 00:33:33,260 --> 00:33:41,640 Um, but, but why don't, uh, why don't you introduce yourself, uh, briefly, Ed, and kind of just, uh, for, for the listener, go over who you are, what your deal is. 505 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:47,420 We know you use VS code and, uh, that, that anything athletic has to be logged or it did not exist. 506 00:33:48,220 --> 00:33:48,580 Exactly. 507 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,860 And I am the master of, well, I'm the master of version control. 508 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,220 That's what I've claimed already, isn't it? 509 00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:55,820 But, uh, I honestly don't know if there's much more you need to know about me, right? 510 00:33:55,860 --> 00:33:57,480 I was, so I was an infrastructure guy. 511 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:02,480 I went through the classic help desk through service support, through storage and so on. 512 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,300 Um, and then, yeah, I was on the customer side for a long, long time. 513 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,380 I got dragged into VMware forever back in the day. 514 00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:11,540 Cause I thought ESX and vMotion was magic. 515 00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:20,680 Um, I started blogging about that back in 2007 or eight or something like that, which hooked me into the whole VMware, both ecosystem and everything else. 516 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,340 And eventually I ended up working here. 517 00:34:23,460 --> 00:34:26,020 Uh, and fast forward eight years, I'm still here, still loving it. 518 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,460 Um, and the world has, you know, changed around me. 519 00:34:28,580 --> 00:34:35,680 Um, and I'm doing like everyone else trying to keep up with the, the new tech, new way of doing things, the coding I'd love to be doing more of, frankly. 520 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,900 Um, it was a pivot in my career. 521 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:43,580 That one, actually, I, my very, very first job out of university was a placement year. 522 00:34:43,740 --> 00:34:52,180 And I went to be a COBOL programmer, um, which dates me quite a bit, but anyway, and I turned up on day one for this insurance company in UK and they had, I don't know, 20 students. 523 00:34:52,180 --> 00:34:57,960 And they, when I arrived, said, you know what, we may not actually have enough COBOL jobs for everybody that we've offered a job. 524 00:34:58,220 --> 00:34:59,940 Do you want to do tech support instead? 525 00:35:00,660 --> 00:35:02,300 And that forever changed my career. 526 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,460 So, you know, I hankered to get back to coding one day. 527 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,880 Um, but yeah, not now I'm a very, yes, coder. 528 00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:08,500 Let's be fair. 529 00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:12,880 That's quite the switch from going from programming to, to, to support. 530 00:35:13,180 --> 00:35:14,860 It would be if you'd ever done much, right? 531 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:15,960 You're, I was a green student. 532 00:35:16,020 --> 00:35:16,680 I didn't know much. 533 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,680 So I was like, well, I've theoretically know some coding in aid or another stuff that I've done on my degree course. 534 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,920 And I theoretically know a little bit about hardware. 535 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,520 And then it was like, which one are you going to learn more about? 536 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,040 Well, I, I went the infrastructure route. 537 00:35:28,620 --> 00:35:36,740 See that, that, that, you know, you know how I was, uh, trying to articulate how, uh, you know, you start thinking about the kernel as part of your, your middleware or your stack. 538 00:35:36,740 --> 00:35:48,940 And like, I, maybe, maybe you have more experience than I do, but I feel like if you're doing kind of like COBOL and mainframe programming, you're encouraged to like consider the operating system part of your application stack. 539 00:35:49,260 --> 00:35:49,660 Right. 540 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:55,940 And so it would be more, I guess if you told the mainframe person, you're going to mess with the kernel, they would just like force you to leave the room. 541 00:35:55,940 --> 00:35:56,100 Yeah. 542 00:35:56,100 --> 00:35:56,280 Yeah. 543 00:35:56,380 --> 00:35:57,380 They wouldn't like that. 544 00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,800 There's, there's a different style of programming. 545 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,420 I think that you do in, uh, that environment than, than other ones. 546 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:04,360 Yeah. 547 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,500 I just remember all mine was always higher level languages, right? 548 00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:09,840 I thought as time went on, the languages would get more and more abstracted. 549 00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:12,540 So the idea we're now stepping back towards kernel seems odd. 550 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:13,500 That should have been long forgotten. 551 00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:15,580 You know, nobody codes in assembly language anymore. 552 00:36:15,580 --> 00:36:18,020 I learned that when I was like 12, I was super proud. 553 00:36:18,140 --> 00:36:21,360 I coded some little demo thing in assembly language. 554 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,240 It was no use to me in future life whatsoever. 555 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:24,400 Cause nobody does that anymore. 556 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:25,040 Why would you bother? 557 00:36:25,140 --> 00:36:26,880 There's far easier ways of doing it. 558 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,040 Um, so yeah, interesting. 559 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,000 Everything is said, everything goes around in cycles. 560 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,120 We forget about the kernel. 561 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,900 And then 10 years later, we decide it's actually quite useful if we go back and revisit it and chop and change it a little bit. 562 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:39,900 It's all gone web assembly. 563 00:36:40,340 --> 00:36:41,200 That's what's happened. 564 00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:41,860 Well, there you go. 565 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:42,360 Yeah. 566 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,080 That's a nice segue for a future episode. 567 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:45,440 Maybe. 568 00:36:45,980 --> 00:36:47,560 How about, how about yourself, Ben? 569 00:36:47,620 --> 00:36:50,160 Tell, tell people a little bit about, about what your deal is. 570 00:36:50,460 --> 00:36:52,240 Well, Ed went back quite far there. 571 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:54,700 So I, so I feel like I'm obliged to do the same. 572 00:36:54,700 --> 00:37:06,200 So, so, you know, originally I started in, uh, in sales and marketing, believe it or not, uh, direct marketing, in fact, and then, uh, managed to, uh, to, to, to get a job coding. 573 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,900 Uh, sort of marketing databases and, and stuff like that. 574 00:37:11,380 --> 00:37:15,800 And then I turned that into a career in, uh, in, in coding for quite a long time. 575 00:37:16,260 --> 00:37:19,800 I was a Java programmer, much like yourself, Cody, but nowhere near as talented. 576 00:37:20,580 --> 00:37:35,140 Uh, and then, um, I spent probably about, uh, I don't know, 10 years or so as a, as an architect as well, helping folks to, uh, you know, modernize systems and integrate. 577 00:37:35,140 --> 00:37:38,240 So there's a, quite a lot of integration over the course of my career. 578 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:42,260 I spent a fair amount of time with Java and spring and various other things. 579 00:37:43,300 --> 00:37:54,640 And these days now I'm, uh, I'm back into marketing and helping folks, uh, to understand the, uh, different technologies that we have and how they work and how you can get started with them. 580 00:37:54,640 --> 00:38:00,860 And, um, hopefully encouraging folks to try them because, uh, because I think they're really good. 581 00:38:00,860 --> 00:38:05,160 And I hope that others, uh, feel the same way after they've seen some of my stuff. 582 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:17,600 So yeah, that's what I enjoy doing these days is trying to help other people to, um, understand what we've got and hopefully, uh, demystify it somewhat and perhaps even inspire them to try it. 583 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:26,920 Yeah, you're definitely, uh, you, you've put out a lot of, uh, you're experimenting with the video formats available now in addition to the non-experimental ones. 584 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:28,460 But, uh, it's, it's fun. 585 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:35,540 It's always fun to see someone trying to figure out like how to use all these wacky video formats in the, in the nine 16 ratio. 586 00:38:35,540 --> 00:38:38,420 And, and, and figure out what's works. 587 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:46,820 Cause it is, uh, you know, I, I too have done a study of all the video stuff out there and I think it is totally inconclusive about what works and doesn't. 588 00:38:46,820 --> 00:38:56,780 It's, uh, my fear is that it'll be the same thing as always, that it's the content that matters, which just like, that's no one can come up, come up with good content frequently enough. 589 00:38:56,900 --> 00:38:59,140 Like you, you only have like a couple of them. 590 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,060 Well, maybe you have more than me, but if it relies on the content, I'm in trouble. 591 00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:05,940 Cause I, I've only got so much. 592 00:39:06,860 --> 00:39:11,300 Well, maybe the, maybe the listeners and watchers can, you know, help us out with some of this stuff. 593 00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:15,560 I put out very recently, I put out an, a nine by 16 video. 594 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,300 I was following Coté's lead. 595 00:39:17,300 --> 00:39:26,580 Cause obviously he's the trailblazer here on this format, uh, for, uh, for the Docker files thing that we were talking about, uh, before. 596 00:39:26,580 --> 00:39:28,460 So, uh, so yeah, check it out on YouTube. 597 00:39:28,460 --> 00:39:29,400 Tell us what you think. 598 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:30,940 We always need to see your comments. 599 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,920 I think what we've been missing it, what we've been missing is adding music to it. 600 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,760 We need to find out what the popular music is every week and put that in there. 601 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:46,580 Oh, don't I have a, I have an artist in mind and I think I'm going to have to ask legal if they're like, you know, licenses a few tracks. 602 00:39:46,580 --> 00:39:52,620 I think about this stuff all the time, don't you just set off another, that would be unfortunate. 603 00:39:52,620 --> 00:40:08,220 Well, uh, yeah, I, so, so I'm Coté, I, I work on the developer advocate team, but I spend most of my time as I tell people like studying how people, how management and executives, studying the process side of things and how large organizations, uh, switch over what they do. 604 00:40:08,580 --> 00:40:15,960 So, uh, hints, not using, uh, CLIs very much anymore, but just talking about how, uh, people do their work and stuff like that. 605 00:40:16,460 --> 00:40:22,180 And, uh, so we have this, we'll have this in a, uh, uh, three exciting formats. 606 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,440 Let's see one, just a traditional podcast. 607 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:35,640 So if you go to tonsutalk.com or if you've already been subscribed and just haven't heard this in a while, you can just download those, uh, whenever we release them into your podcast player. 608 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:41,000 That's how we won't go over how podcasts, I mean, if you don't know how a podcast works, it's wonderful. 609 00:40:41,340 --> 00:40:43,280 You subscribe to it and it gets downloaded for you. 610 00:40:43,340 --> 00:40:48,100 It's fun stuff, but it's only, there'll be some people right now going, what the hell? 611 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,160 I thought they were dead. 612 00:40:49,780 --> 00:40:51,660 Yeah, exactly. 613 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,180 Hopefully, hopefully that's a, that's a relief for some people. 614 00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,520 But then also, also, uh, you know, we'll, we'll do a live streaming of this, which is fun. 615 00:41:00,780 --> 00:41:07,600 So, uh, hopefully we'll do it, uh, like on Mondays at, uh, what time did we agree to? 616 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:08,460 Is it this one? 617 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:10,400 Like, I thought it was a Tuesday. 618 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,860 I think we, no, you're right. 619 00:41:13,260 --> 00:41:15,140 So don't, don't listen to what I just said. 620 00:41:15,140 --> 00:41:19,520 We'll do things on Tuesdays at, I think, uh, 11 a.m. 621 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:24,440 UK time, noon, uh, Amsterdam, you know, central European time. 622 00:41:24,660 --> 00:41:29,180 And so you can, uh, you can turn into the live stream for that and maybe we'll even learn. 623 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:33,700 I don't know about y'all, but, but I, I don't have, I'm not good at talking with people in 624 00:41:33,700 --> 00:41:34,220 the stream. 625 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,200 You're supposed to acknowledge them and say hello and do all these things, but I, I, I don't, 626 00:41:39,380 --> 00:41:40,920 I don't really do that. 627 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,080 And then maybe also, since we're kind of doubling up as a podcast, it would be a little awkward, 628 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,020 uh, to, to have that in there, but we'll figure something out. 629 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,300 And then of course that means since it's live streamed, it's archived as a video at, uh, 630 00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:57,840 if you subscribe or just bookmark the VMware Tanzu YouTube channel, you can go find it there. 631 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,320 And then with that, I think, uh, good job. 632 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:00,900 You too. 633 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:02,500 I think we have a first episode here. 634 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,300 We'll be back next week, uh, to sort things out. 635 00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:08,780 So you want to say bye? 636 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:11,000 Absolutely. 637 00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:12,200 Goodbye, everybody. 638 00:42:12,260 --> 00:42:13,040 Thanks for listening. 639 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,380 Thanks for more thrilling news next week. 640 00:42:15,540 --> 00:42:15,700 Come on. 641 00:42:15,820 --> 00:42:16,220 Exactly. 642 00:42:16,420 --> 00:42:17,020 Who's proud. 643 00:42:17,020 --> 00:42:17,340 That's right. 644 00:42:17,460 --> 00:42:18,340 I'm going to do something good. 645 00:42:24,980 --> 00:42:26,440 That's unheard of starting. 646 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:31,020 You know, yes, well, you know, and that's what I, I think, uh, that's what we're not doing today. 647 00:42:31,020 --> 00:42:35,740 We're starting right on time, especially I'm sure you two, uh, enjoy, uh, pre-recorded content. 648 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,540 The thing about, the thing about pre-recorded content is it always starts right on time.