And here we are with episode number two of our new podcast called Cloud and Culture. Thank you so much for listening. If you're tuning in for the first time, here's the quick background. I'm Danielle Burrow from VMware. And I'm Derek Harris from VMware. And this podcast is focused on VMware Pivotal Labs and the work our team of experts do to help organizations ranging from startups to Fortune 500 enterprises shift their software development into high gear. As the title suggests, that entails modernizing and sometimes just kickstarting software development and tooling, as well as helping clients create a culture that will allow them to run efficient, self-sufficient software development teams for the long term. Our guest this week is Jackie Rose Amable, an expert in entrepreneurship who first engaged with Pivotal Labs several years ago when she was building her first company called Revelar. The discussion gets into some of the details of the company, which Jackie started building in 2012 and left in 2017. But the most compelling aspect is the backstory. Revelar was a passion project for Jackie, who actually started building it during college and then while working as a Spanish teacher. In our interview, she explains just how helpful her early engagement was with Pivotal Labs. Not only did Pivotal Labs help her company build out its first product and bring in the right people, but Labs' reputation gave investors and board members confidence that it was on the right track. Now, Jackie spends her time mentoring other startups and she explains some of the characteristics that might signal when a startup could benefit from working with a team like VMware Pivotal Labs. It's definitely an insightful discussion. And if you want to learn more from Jackie, you can follow her on Twitter at Jackie underscore Rose, R-O-S. And of course, you can learn more about VMware Pivotal Labs by visiting tanzu.vmware.com slash labs. So, Jackie, let's just kick it off and get started talking about the company that you founded a few years back. So that was actually back in 2012. The company is called Revelar.
2:04Could you give us just a little bit of background and overview of what Revelar is all about? Absolutely. And, you know, thank you for having me here today. So Revelar, I was originally inspired to create my business. For those who don't speak Spanish, Revelar is revelar. It means to take flight again. And it's an ode to survivors of sexual violence like my little sister who inspired our technology. What I learned was that during, you know, any kind of scary situation, your instincts, you know, you're fighting fight, flight, or freeze. And, you know, during these critical seconds, you don't have time to take out your phone, unlock it, and call for help from the right person. So we devised a tiny wearable that would hide under your clothing or hide within jewelry. And at the touch of a button could send to your pre-selected contacts and loved ones, your location, and any other information. So it very much was sort of a tiered approach. One press was a check-in, everything's okay. Two presses is, hey, somebody virtually walked me home or make my phone ring to get me out of this uncomfortable situation. And three or more presses was red alert, please send for help. What was, I mean, just because I think it's relevant to the discussion, what was it like? I mean, what was your experience with entrepreneurship when you got started or with building? I had come up with the idea actually for Revelar when I was still in college and used my graduation money to start covering the patents and things like that. We had a really hard time figuring out exactly what kind of engineer we need to hire early on. And we're getting really mixed messages. I joke that it turns out you need one of each, you know, one hardware, one supply chain, one iOS, one Android, one backend, one at least one frontend, and UI, UX, and so forth. So for one tiny button, it took quite the team to pull it together. And really what we found is that, you know, we could figure out how to build the technology, but how to market it and how to approach people correctly about it was really a big piece of it.
4:05And so, you know, I love entrepreneurship, I'm now, you know, I'm officially in that field for the rest of my life. But it was, it was a, I came into it because I felt a need for this product to exist and not so much that, you know, I always knew one day I was going to grow up and raise millions and start a business. Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, but you went to, you went to college in Florida. Yeah. Like, I mean, that's quite a way out of that. I mean, that's, you know, I, one thing I've learned is like, if you come out of Silicon Valley or some, maybe some parts of New York, some New York universities, or wherever there's like this built in kind of venture capital pipeline and entrepreneurship training. But like, how did you even get connected? I mean, I'm just curious, like, what was the, so you got the patents, you started working on how to build the product. How did you end up getting connected with, with investors and with, you know, just getting into that whole scene? Building out our, you know, network of like allies and supporters really did take a long time. That was probably one of the most difficult pieces because I didn't know what a venture capitalist was. You know, the nickname of my college was the swamp. It was not known as a pipeline to VC anything. And it, on the, it, there was something in Denver called Denver Startup Week. And a friend told me, hey, look, you go to this week and you get all this amazing free advice from, from biz people in the community. And I attended an event called, from Women Who Start Up. And I'll never forget because I was a school teacher. So I had accepted a job with Teach for America to help me cover the bills, which bootstrapping a hardware company on a teacher. Um, but you know, it was an amazing experience. And so I just left my two year commitment at Teach for America. I had a janky prototype. I showed up to Denver Startup Week at Women Who Start Up. And I'm like, this is my audience. If anybody is going to care, it's these people. And as a teacher, I'd read research that, um, if you say no more questions, little, uh, boys will shout out and sometimes get the chance to ask the question or keep their hand up. Little girls are more likely to, um, obey your directions and put your hand down.
6:08Like the social conditioning is strong. And so I remember this research. They said no more questions, but I was sitting in the very front and I was like, I need to get these people's attention. Like I need help. Um, so I kept my hand up reminding myself about that research. And I kept thinking like, oh God, I really hope this, I like, I was, I felt myself turning red. People started laughing. The panelists started laughing and they finally said, you know what? She won't put her hand down. Let her ask her question. And I said, look, I, I know that business is who, you know, I'm a school teacher who's trying to tackle, um, keeping your loved ones safe. And, and this like negative culture, leveraging tech, um, where do I start when you don't know anybody? Um, they of course all offered to help, uh, but it's always, it's a bit of a numbers game. Like one out of the eight panelists actually responded to me and followed up when I followed up with them. Um, and her name is Jane Miller. Um, for those of you who don't know, Jane Miller wrote a book called a sleeping way to the top and other myths about business and women. Um, she is an amazing, uh, CEO of Lily sweets and has been in the food industry for a long time. Um, but she also happens to be dear friends with Seth from foundry group, one of the managing partners. Um, and so she very, she was like, I remember going to her afterwards and being like, Hey, look, I really need investors. Like this hardware product, you know, I, I can tell that I, I can't afford to pay for it with my, with my own money. I need to figure out where to find investors. And she's like, well, I know this VC, um, maybe you'll speak to him. And I thought of VC was like the gatekeeper to the investors. I did not understand what VC said, looking back, I should have asked. I didn't either when I got out of college for what it's worth. Thank you. And I had been teaching, you know, in elementary school for two years, like nobody I knew had that lingo. And I always say to tell people, it's like, look, I was a Spanish teacher. It's vocabulary. Like you have to just get used to a new set of vocabulary, but that's it. Like, it's not some hard to reach concept.
8:08If you just tackle the words kind of like one at a time. Um, and so met Seth, pitched him on our idea. Um, he was like, you're a little early for us, go hit some more milestones and come back. And I was like, all right, I don't know what that means. But, you know, we decided to do a Kickstarter. Um, this is way before we met you all. So we did the Kickstarter because we had that janky prototype that you plug into a wall and it'd work. Um, and as we were, uh, organizing and coordinating what would end up being a successful Kickstarter campaign, we raised 90,000 in 45 days. So I looped back to Seth three months later and shared our progress. Um, and at that point, Seth said, I'm in, um, send, you know, tell me your terms. And thank God I'd read Jane Miller's book coming for a circle. Cause in her book, it says, don't lie. Like, if you don't know what they're talking about, ask. And I was like, terms, I was like, Hey Seth, um, I want to make sure we're on the same page here. If you could just send me some resources to make sure that any terms I send you are aligned with what you're thinking, that would be great. And that's when I got, uh, Brad Feld's blogs on convertible debt. And I had won some free legal at startup week. And so between the free legal and his blogs, I just spent three days crafting terms. Um, and remember I used to want to go to law school, so I kind of love anything legal. I can, I get really nerdy about it. Um, sent it to Seth. I, I, um, I made it blue, threw up our logo. Like, I felt like very legally blonde. I like, all I was missing was the spray of perfume and, um, he didn't respond for three days. And I was so scared. I was like, Oh no, he thinks it's who sends a legal document branded. It probably looked too girly. Um, he said, we're in, but we only will, I asked for 200,000. He's like, we'll only do it if you accept 250. That's our minimum. And I was like, what? I was like, I'm in that's deal. Like, I don't even understand like what kind of negotiation that was, but yes, I accept more money. Thank you. Um, and then we got into tech stars and everything was kind of a rollercoaster after that. That's awesome.
10:08I, you sound like a really excellent student of, of entrepreneurship, Jackie. You know, I, I say it's one of those things that you really can't study for. Like, again, the vocabulary is probably it. Everything else, you just kind of have to do it because even when people try to explain it to you, you're going to make your own mistakes. Like whenever I give advice to people now, I'm like, look, I'm going to tell you this. You're going to take it or leave it. You're going to either, you're probably going to mess it up anyway. So just mess it up fast enough and realize it and then move on. But like, you can't, you can't harp on that because it, uh, but yeah, it almost, I was glad. I always said it was the naive, the naiveness was almost in my benefit because I was like, why wouldn't somebody want to invest? This is a great product and it should exist. And so, um, I think having that confidence that the product needed to exist is sort of what made that difference between, um, people caring or not. But I also got lucky that I met investors who are champions of first-time founders and support and fund them. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say from what I know about founder group, that that was probably a good, a good set of investors to, to meet as you're trying to do that. Yeah, definitely. So, so Jackie, is this about the time Pivotal Labs came into the picture or can, or. Oh, so when, um, we went through our first tech starts program, um, we ended up closing after that program, 3 million with foundry group. Um, and at this point we were debating our, our hiring strategy and how do we get the product and meet the product deadlines based off our Kickstarter in time, um, while growing out the software team. And luckily I had a really strong CTO with hardware, uh, but we were really weak on the software and we needed some, some help. And we knew that it would take too long to hire and, and figure out the right people. Um, so I remember having this discussion with our board and, you know, we, we brought forward a few options, but I was like, Hey, you know, I did hear about this group named Pivotal, you know, we, we priced them out and, you know, we were a little bit like, you know, which, which direction to go. And I'll never forget our board was like Pivotal or the ninjas of software, you know, like they're like, we'd rather pay to get it built correctly the first time. Um, and when we, we met with Alex Welch, he just made the whole process just feel so effortless
12:13and comfortable. Um, so it was huge for our team to get Pivotal on board. So we really quickly after closing that, um, our super seed round of 3 million. So this was probably in like 2016, early 2016, late 2015. Um, we, uh, engaged Pivotal at this point, we only had one and a half, uh, one was a self taught iOS individual Juan, um, and, and, uh, UI UX individual who, who, who also did some backend on our team. Um, and Pivotal really, um, with Alex's support helped us not only shape our strategy for who we would hire, they helped us train, you know, you all helped us coach up my team members. Um, I probably, my biggest pride and joy was Juan from that experience. So Juan came to me, you know, he was a friend's little cousin and, um, he, he had self taught himself iOS, but hadn't studied it formally in school, which having not studied at, you know, what I did formally, I had a bit of a weakness for people that were, um, the underdogs and like trying to break into something, you know, that they had no previous experience in. Um, and so I, I remember giving Juan the offer. I was like, look, if you come, cause he was living in Texas. I was like, if you've come to Colorado, I have, I will find a way to coach you. I was like, and I will make sure you have food and somewhere to sleep. I was like, cause this was before we raised the 3 million. And this guy shows up in his car a week later from Texas. And immediately just absorbed everything that pivotal taught him to the point that within one year he had become, thanks to you all proficient in the backend, the front end iOS and Android and was in, ended up becoming one of our just like all-star team members. Um, and, uh, it just, it was just so great to, to be able to do that. Cause as you think as a young nascent startup, you know, I didn't have the wherewithal and I was too busy focusing on investors and getting the product to market to, to really hone in on, but what are the best hiring practices? How do I know, you know, like as a, as a non-technical founder, it was such a, you know,
14:16without pivotal's help, I never would have been able to say definitively, yes, this was a good hire. No, I mean, not everybody we brought forward was right. Like sometimes, you know, you all would evaluate somebody for us and say, Hey Jackie, like I know this person has nine years experience, but you know, they're, they're not testing up to par where you would want them. Um, and so to have Alex and your team guide us was just monumental, um, to the point that the software continues to be, you know, a strength of the product. Um, and when we did go on to try to fundraise for our next round, investors would literally say to us like this product is just, it works when it says it will. You know, they were, they were really impressed. Um, but I always, you know, I always said my strategy was to hire people way smarter than me. Um, and, and that's what it did. And so our product came out really strong because of it. And, you know, throughout the life cycle of the product, it had, uh, when, when I was in charge, it had an average of 4.5 stars on Amazon. So it was really well architected and designed. And my team benefited immensely from the training and coaching they received at Pivotal. That's really cool. How long was the engagement with the last? Actually, we ended up doing two engagements because at one point, like we just, you know, startup process, right? Like some people leave, some people go. Um, the first engagement I want to say was nine months. The second engagement was six months. Um, and, uh, both times it was, the first time was to really help build out that team and fill it up. And then the second time was as things were expanding quickly, we just needed help faster and sort of, um, you know, went, you know, Pivotal was, uh, sort of like, it felt like a really comfortable place for us to come back to. Because you all already knew our product and helped architect it from the beginning. Um, so that was really great for us. I think it depended on the stage of the, of the product, but we ended up working with you all twice during that lifetime. Okay. And so, Jaggi, you talked about really having a very clear idea of what you wanted this product to be able to do. And I guess I'm just curious, did your work with Pivotal Labs change anything, like, like change the way you were approaching it or change any of the features or, or did they just kind of help validate and figure out how to make it happen?
16:23Um, I think what Pivotal helped me do the most was learn how to lead my software team, you know, so from like the beginning design sessions and sort of like, what are all, you know, they, they sort of really held my hand in those beginning days of like, how do you host that initial kickoff meeting and figure out what's necessary in the MVP and what, what isn't, how do you shape a software product roadmap? Um, and so for, as the leader of the company, right, I needed to know how to lead my team and lead those conversations without dictating what should be happening next. Um, and we let a lot of our, you know, beyond the initial vision, we really try to lean heavily on, on user feedback and on customer, um, you know, feedback and things like that. And, and, uh, Pivotal showed us how to integrate that into our workflow. Um, but for me, those were, you know, since I wasn't in the day to day of the coding, um, that those were the big takeaways for me as the CEO of a startup that was trying to learn how to grow and manage a team, um, at the same time as learning how to, you know, grow and manage, you know, our investor pool and all that jazz. Can I ask, I mean, I mean, so, so as you mentioned, when you were, you, you're not with Revelar anymore, you've kind of moved into the entrepreneurial space. I won't, I won't ask you to divulge your, your current, uh, pro your current project, but I I'm curious what, like, you know, just, just generally speaking, I mean, do you, how do you look at the labs experience and relate that maybe to. Like other startups who are out there or, or, and where, um, so our engagement with Pivotal made it possible for us to move fast, save money in the long run, because we weren't having to, you know, rebuild bad code. We weren't having to, um, you know, if, if we lost somebody or somebody moved away, we didn't lose that knowledge. Um, and, and when I looked at some of my friends who decided to go a different path or first only hire in house before sort of, you know, giving themselves the time to hire the right people, you know, especially in hardware, they didn't deliver products for like two, three years after they were supposed to.
18:28Um, and so overwhelmingly the feedback I got externally was, it was almost like a shock of like, how did you all move so fast and build such a strong product? Um, and I was always very open that we were engaged with Pivotal and that, that they were helping make that software come to life. I'll never forget Brad Feld in my interview for when we were getting funding, Brad goes to me, what's more important, the hardware, the software. And I was like, whew, how am I supposed to answer that question? Right? Like, I don't know. They're both, they both have to work. And he was like, he's like, that may be right for the first launch. He's like, but in the long run, he's like, it's the software. The software is the magic, right? Like hardware is software wrapped. Um, and, um, it was just such an eyeopening experience. That's not only how investors view the value of the business, but also like their understanding of how that software would lead to the right experience for our users. And whether the hardware was played or not, if that software didn't function, it was useful. Um, and so it, it was, uh, it was very eyeopening, but, um, I, I look at so many startups that are just so like, you know, I mentor a bunch of them. And I sometimes, you know, I watch how they're building or what they're doing and you try to give them the feedback, but I'm like, you know, if you've been developing a product for five years and nobody still gets it and it's still really buggy. I'm like, you've got to admit that you're maybe not the right team to build this thing. Um, you know, and you have to be able to find your product makes product market fit sooner than that. So for us, um, I felt like we got a huge leg up working with pivotal labs. I felt like, um, our software was really robust and that was always, um, a plus for us and, and overwhelmingly led to really great feedback from our users and from our investors. Uh, we ended up selling the business in 2017. There was definitely a bit of a long story there. Um, but even when the new owners came in, they're like, wow, this is like really, really solid, solidly built. And I was like, yeah, we were, we were very lucky to find people that helped us from day one. Um, you know, create a strong foundation for our product.
20:28Um, so it allowed us to add a lot of features quickly, a lot of smooth quickly. Um, and, uh, no, it was just an overall really positive experience for us. We're really proud of the products that we launched. Very cool. Yeah. I felt like we, I abruptly shifted away from Revelar. I hope she, I hope we, I hope we circle back, but yes. So yes, company was sold, still exists. Right. So just the, to complete the circle, the server, whatever, like, yes. Yes. I'm no longer involved. Um, and then I worked for my former investors at Techstars for two years. I've now just accepted a, a new role, which will, you know, be out soon, but I'll be in the clean tech space. And so, um, and funny enough, just made a recommendation to a friend who was looking for help on the software side to, to speak with you all. So, um, you know, I think that a lot of that sort of the community and what you learn from each other does come full circle in many ways. Right. Did you, did you learn a, do you see a, notice a difference between, especially maybe when you're at Techstars and helping advice startups, do you notice a difference between, or, or, I mean, I'm sure there is a difference. Like, what are the differences, I guess, between a, a, a, an engineering led startup, maybe, you know, a few computer science graduates get together and, and decide to do something or, or versus, you know, more of an experience that you had, or it's a project of passion or some, someone comes with subject matter expertise, but. You know, a lack of engineering know-how, like, do you do see a difference in how they, they approach building up products? When I look at the founders, so, you know, you're talking about sort of like a technical led team or other at Techstars, they really push to help you balance out the team early on. Right. So for me, that meant hiring a lot of technical, um, because that was definitely my biggest weakness. I was never going to be able to build the Revelar products by myself. Um, I, I, I almost wouldn't say that I see a difference between being engineer led or being passion led. I see a difference between founders who are comfortable not being the smartest person in the room and founders who aren't.
22:30Um, so it's almost less the division of that, but more of the, you know, I've seen engineering teams that are brilliant engineers, but who really don't like biz dev or biz dev people, and they refuse to hire for it. So they build these phenomenal products, but they're never able to figure out their channel strategy or their marketing strategy. Um, and, and, you know, it's because they, they seem uncomfortable with those concepts or they don't hire the right people for those concepts and vice versa. Right. I see a lot of people, they're like, oh, I'd rather hire like, you know, really young and hungry. I'm like, yeah, young and hungry is great to a certain degree, but at some point you need this thing to exist. This has to be real if somebody is going to invest in it and if people are going to buy it, um, you know, and so what I've seen frequently be that difference is, you know, someone's comfort. I'll never forget my investors, like even with one big hire I was making, they're like, why are you hiring this person? And I said, well, you know, I don't know what I don't know. And I've never done that piece of the business. So I need to hire somebody with X amount of experience because I can't just hire anybody into that role. I need someone that'll balance me out. Um, and they're like, that's really great to hear and makes us feel better about like why you're hiring certain people. Um, so part of it is a conversation with your board, but it also, as a founder, just acknowledging your strengths and weaknesses. I was a subject matter expert on the lack of safety, right? Like I had lived it. My family had lived it. I had studied it. Um, I was, you know, on the front lines doing those initial interviews. Um, I became one of the world's foremost experts on sexual violence and how to tackle it. Um, but I didn't have that other knowledge. And I knew that in a VC backed company, you have a short timeframe to show results, meaning sales, and you can't get sales without a product launching. And so, you know, you, you have to be comfortable with trusting your team and trusting the people you work with. Um, but that's again, why I was grateful for Pivotal because they already had, you know, you all, sorry, you're already had an outstanding reputation, which made both my, made me comfortable.
24:32Also, Alex Welch is just easy to work with and amazing. And it made my board really comfortable, you know, and, and they were our biggest supporters. And so, um, for me, when you can find a team and put a team together that everybody is happy about and you're, you as the founder are learning something new every day from your team, you've done the right thing. I mean, overwhelmingly, probably the thing I'm most proud of at Revelar was the team and the, and the people we worked with. Because I just felt like we worked with great people who were there to try to help others. Um, and we're willing to coach and, and share information. Um, so I never felt like, um, like it was an issue that I didn't know those things because there was a mutual respect for what everybody was a subject matter expert in. Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. And I was just thinking when you were talking about this need for kind of a balance of, you know, the technical and the biz dev and the marketing and all these different areas of expertise that you need to bring as a founder, I was kind of thinking how there's a parallel there with what Pivotal Labs, um, likes to call the balanced team approach to software development. So even on that kind of technical side, you know, we're really big advocates of having someone who's, um, you know, also a designer and the product manager and the engineer working together. Um, so anyway, I just think it, it really reinforces that need for, for a balanced approach, um, all aspects. And your team runs a really tight ship, which gave my team really great habits, you know, the standups. Um, we actually took waffle Wednesdays and once we had our own office, kept that alive because my team was so sad to no longer have access to your waffle Wednesdays. Um, we actually adopted that habit. Um, but it was, it was great. Like it, it allowed me to focus on other parts of the business that mattered. And with a hardware company, it's just so complex. You need strong people in your corners so that you can focus on that bigger picture and make sure that the, you know, the trains are all running on time. Um, and so I felt like Pivotal Labs empowered us to do that while helping us coach up our team to the point that we didn't miss a beat.
26:38Yeah. And I was going to say, I mean, just thinking of, especially in the, in the space that Reveler operates, like the product has to work. There's not a, a, there's not a lot of leeway for, for, for it to be laggy or buggy. And I mean, I've, especially from Kickstarter, you, you know, you've seen some lovely hardware, right? And I've, I've, I've ordered some of it. And then when it comes, the software side of it is really, really underwhelming. And you're like, well, that was a few hundred bucks down the drain. And it's frustrating, but with safety, we, we felt a, a deep need, you know, we couldn't launch something that didn't work every time we said it would. Um, they're, they're, like you said, they're just, this isn't some widget, this was people buying it because they genuinely felt a lack of safety in their life. And, um, it, it was just really great to, to know that our product was that stable. Yeah. And the other thing, the other thing I thought you said that was really interesting, especially from the startup perspective is, is talking about your board and talking about, because, because the stakeholders, again, aren't just employees or users or whomever. Like if you're, if you're a startup, especially, you know, you, you have different stakeholders and, and making them comfortable is part of the game. Right. And I think, I think that's a, just, you know, kind of one of those things that it's probably behooves founders to think about is that. Yes. Not to say you have to use Pivotal Labs, but the idea that giving them the comfort, giving them the comfort and knowing that you're actually building something in a reliable manner. Exactly. And, um, especially as a first time founder, especially as a non-technical founder, you know, really getting those, you want everybody to be aligned. You want your investors to be comfortable with your strategy. They deserve that respect. They deserve, you know, like, at least for me, like I loved, I had, I loved working with my board. I had a lot of learnings as a first time founder, learning to manage and work with a board. I definitely had, you know, made a few mistakes along, like learning how, how frequently to communicate and things like that. But, um, the one thing we were always on the same page about was, um, you know, the, the hiring strategy and, and why we'd gone down that route. And, uh, for us that meant working with Pivotal in the early days.
28:42Jackie, I wondered, you were just talking about all your learnings and I, I wondered if, you know, if there was like one key takeaway or like lesson learned that you could pass along to like a new founder, what would that be? Not to put you on the spot, but no, no, no, no, I think the, I had, I mean, a million and one mistakes I made, you know, from going to retail too soon to data, but probably one of the two biggest ones I had one is easy is bad news has to travel fast, right? Like when something doesn't go right, speak up soon, tell everybody who is a stakeholder, um, they want to feel like part of the team. They want to help you solve problems. Um, and so reaching out to them sooner than later really helps create a transparent, uh, line of communication. But when it comes from team management perspective, I think my biggest takeaway was that there is a balance between hiring really smart people, but hiring people that are right for your face. Um, you know, I, I really, we had a really hard time. It took us years and we never really found the right VP of software and the entire five, six years that I ran Revelar, we never had a strong VP of software. We always worked with pivotal to help us because we just had a, well, I found a great fit for every other role. That one role, we always had a hard time finding somebody that fit because either they, they weren't comfortable working with Bluetooth products or, um, they were too far along, et cetera. And so probably our biggest takeaway was having the right team at the right time. And, um, you know, maybe somebody had taken a company in sales from 50 million to 1.2 billion, but if they have never taken a company from 1 million to 10 million, um, they weren't going to be the right fit. Cause their skillset was not the right fit unless they were willing to learn a new skillset. Um, and for us with, with product team, that meant, um, being able to leverage pivotal in those early days so that we could make those right hires at the right time, um, while still meeting our deadlines. Um, and that gave us the flexibility to, to really be picky and, and only bring on people internally that we felt really confident would be a great fit, both culturally, um, and other.
30:42And so, uh, for us, like that hybrid team approach, we actually use that both on the software and on the, on the hardware side. Um, and it just, it worked really well for us. And so I think that, um, you know, some, some founders are, you know, they get worried about, you know, maybe engaging with outside individuals because they want to control everything. But finding that right team at the right time, like I felt like we found pivotal and were able to work with you all at the right time. Like we had just closed enough money. We were nine months out from launch. That was the time we needed to really hit the ground running, um, and make sure that, you know, we had dotted our I's and crossed our T's before this launch. And, um, that gave us the flexibility to do so without that pressure of, oh no, we, you know, that person we thought was going to be a culture fit wasn't. And, and, you know, that happens. That's a normal part of startups. Um, I remember naively thinking, you know, I'd never let anybody go, um, or ever have to. And, um, you realize that that's just not realistic. And so being able to have a team that you can depend and trust while getting that off the ground is, is pretty priceless. Thanks a lot. Really, really insightful. Appreciate it. Oh, thank you all. Um, you know, pivotal really did make such a big difference for us. So, uh, was excited to speak with you and your community today. So thank you for having me. Oh, thanks Jackie. Thanks everyone for listening.