1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,360 And here we are with episode number two of our new podcast called Cloud and Culture. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,240 Thank you so much for listening. If you're tuning in for the first time, 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,640 here's the quick background. I'm Danielle Burrow from VMware. 4 00:00:13,420 --> 00:00:18,800 And I'm Derek Harris from VMware. And this podcast is focused on VMware Pivotal Labs 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,280 and the work our team of experts do to help organizations ranging from startups to Fortune 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:29,100 500 enterprises shift their software development into high gear. As the title suggests, that entails 7 00:00:29,100 --> 00:00:34,100 modernizing and sometimes just kickstarting software development and tooling, as well as 8 00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:38,820 helping clients create a culture that will allow them to run efficient, self-sufficient software 9 00:00:38,820 --> 00:00:43,360 development teams for the long term. Our guest this week is Jackie Rose Amable, 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:48,500 an expert in entrepreneurship who first engaged with Pivotal Labs several years ago when she 11 00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:52,880 was building her first company called Revelar. The discussion gets into some of the details 12 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:57,740 of the company, which Jackie started building in 2012 and left in 2017. 13 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:03,340 But the most compelling aspect is the backstory. Revelar was a passion project for Jackie, 14 00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:07,300 who actually started building it during college and then while working as a Spanish teacher. 15 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,600 In our interview, she explains just how helpful her early engagement was with Pivotal Labs. 16 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:18,200 Not only did Pivotal Labs help her company build out its first product and bring in the right people, 17 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:23,120 but Labs' reputation gave investors and board members confidence that it was on the right track. 18 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,360 Now, Jackie spends her time mentoring other startups and she explains some of the characteristics that 19 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:33,060 might signal when a startup could benefit from working with a team like VMware Pivotal Labs. 20 00:01:33,860 --> 00:01:38,100 It's definitely an insightful discussion. And if you want to learn more from Jackie, you can follow 21 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:46,280 her on Twitter at Jackie underscore Rose, R-O-S. And of course, you can learn more about VMware Pivotal Labs 22 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,160 by visiting tanzu.vmware.com slash labs. 23 00:01:52,420 --> 00:01:58,760 So, Jackie, let's just kick it off and get started talking about the company that you founded a few years back. 24 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,660 So that was actually back in 2012. The company is called Revelar. 25 00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:09,240 Could you give us just a little bit of background and overview of what Revelar is all about? 26 00:02:09,820 --> 00:02:12,740 Absolutely. And, you know, thank you for having me here today. 27 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,700 So Revelar, I was originally inspired to create my business. 28 00:02:16,980 --> 00:02:19,780 For those who don't speak Spanish, Revelar is revelar. 29 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,040 It means to take flight again. 30 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,520 And it's an ode to survivors of sexual violence like my little sister who inspired our technology. 31 00:02:28,300 --> 00:02:37,320 What I learned was that during, you know, any kind of scary situation, your instincts, you know, you're fighting fight, flight, or freeze. 32 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:45,160 And, you know, during these critical seconds, you don't have time to take out your phone, unlock it, and call for help from the right person. 33 00:02:45,860 --> 00:02:50,880 So we devised a tiny wearable that would hide under your clothing or hide within jewelry. 34 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:59,460 And at the touch of a button could send to your pre-selected contacts and loved ones, your location, and any other information. 35 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:01,420 So it very much was sort of a tiered approach. 36 00:03:01,580 --> 00:03:03,760 One press was a check-in, everything's okay. 37 00:03:04,380 --> 00:03:10,520 Two presses is, hey, somebody virtually walked me home or make my phone ring to get me out of this uncomfortable situation. 38 00:03:11,220 --> 00:03:13,840 And three or more presses was red alert, please send for help. 39 00:03:14,060 --> 00:03:20,940 What was, I mean, just because I think it's relevant to the discussion, what was it like? 40 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,820 I mean, what was your experience with entrepreneurship when you got started or with building? 41 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:33,340 I had come up with the idea actually for Revelar when I was still in college and used my graduation money to start covering the patents and things like that. 42 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,920 We had a really hard time figuring out exactly what kind of engineer we need to hire early on. 43 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,480 And we're getting really mixed messages. 44 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:50,460 I joke that it turns out you need one of each, you know, one hardware, one supply chain, one iOS, one Android, one backend, one at least one frontend, and UI, UX, and so forth. 45 00:03:50,940 --> 00:03:54,480 So for one tiny button, it took quite the team to pull it together. 46 00:03:55,540 --> 00:04:05,360 And really what we found is that, you know, we could figure out how to build the technology, but how to market it and how to approach people correctly about it was really a big piece of it. 47 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:11,960 And so, you know, I love entrepreneurship, I'm now, you know, I'm officially in that field for the rest of my life. 48 00:04:12,060 --> 00:04:23,800 But it was, it was a, I came into it because I felt a need for this product to exist and not so much that, you know, I always knew one day I was going to grow up and raise millions and start a business. 49 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,340 Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, but you went to, you went to college in Florida. 50 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:30,300 Yeah. 51 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:31,960 Like, I mean, that's quite a way out of that. 52 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:44,100 I mean, that's, you know, I, one thing I've learned is like, if you come out of Silicon Valley or some, maybe some parts of New York, some New York universities, or wherever there's like this built in kind of venture capital pipeline and entrepreneurship training. 53 00:04:44,420 --> 00:04:46,320 But like, how did you even get connected? 54 00:04:46,460 --> 00:04:50,940 I mean, I'm just curious, like, what was the, so you got the patents, you started working on how to build the product. 55 00:04:51,060 --> 00:04:56,800 How did you end up getting connected with, with investors and with, you know, just getting into that whole scene? 56 00:04:57,460 --> 00:05:02,200 Building out our, you know, network of like allies and supporters really did take a long time. 57 00:05:02,260 --> 00:05:06,760 That was probably one of the most difficult pieces because I didn't know what a venture capitalist was. 58 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,640 You know, the nickname of my college was the swamp. 59 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:11,440 It was not known as a pipeline to VC anything. 60 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:19,120 And it, on the, it, there was something in Denver called Denver Startup Week. 61 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:25,620 And a friend told me, hey, look, you go to this week and you get all this amazing free advice from, from biz people in the community. 62 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,820 And I attended an event called, from Women Who Start Up. 63 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,860 And I'll never forget because I was a school teacher. 64 00:05:31,860 --> 00:05:37,360 So I had accepted a job with Teach for America to help me cover the bills, which bootstrapping a hardware company on a teacher. 65 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,560 Um, but you know, it was an amazing experience. 66 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,760 And so I just left my two year commitment at Teach for America. 67 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:47,020 I had a janky prototype. 68 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:49,760 I showed up to Denver Startup Week at Women Who Start Up. 69 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:50,920 And I'm like, this is my audience. 70 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,020 If anybody is going to care, it's these people. 71 00:05:53,420 --> 00:06:03,300 And as a teacher, I'd read research that, um, if you say no more questions, little, uh, boys will shout out and sometimes get the chance to ask the question or keep their hand up. 72 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,060 Little girls are more likely to, um, obey your directions and put your hand down. 73 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:09,740 Like the social conditioning is strong. 74 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:11,820 And so I remember this research. 75 00:06:11,980 --> 00:06:17,280 They said no more questions, but I was sitting in the very front and I was like, I need to get these people's attention. 76 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:18,420 Like I need help. 77 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,200 Um, so I kept my hand up reminding myself about that research. 78 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,260 And I kept thinking like, oh God, I really hope this, I like, I was, I felt myself turning red. 79 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:27,760 People started laughing. 80 00:06:27,940 --> 00:06:31,480 The panelists started laughing and they finally said, you know what? 81 00:06:31,500 --> 00:06:32,620 She won't put her hand down. 82 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:33,660 Let her ask her question. 83 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:41,740 And I said, look, I, I know that business is who, you know, I'm a school teacher who's trying to tackle, um, keeping your loved ones safe. 84 00:06:41,740 --> 00:06:48,860 And, and this like negative culture, leveraging tech, um, where do I start when you don't know anybody? 85 00:06:49,620 --> 00:06:54,220 Um, they of course all offered to help, uh, but it's always, it's a bit of a numbers game. 86 00:06:54,220 --> 00:06:59,660 Like one out of the eight panelists actually responded to me and followed up when I followed up with them. 87 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:01,200 Um, and her name is Jane Miller. 88 00:07:01,460 --> 00:07:06,800 Um, for those of you who don't know, Jane Miller wrote a book called a sleeping way to the top and other myths about business and women. 89 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:14,920 Um, she is an amazing, uh, CEO of Lily sweets and has been in the food industry for a long time. 90 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:20,120 Um, but she also happens to be dear friends with Seth from foundry group, one of the managing partners. 91 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:26,320 Um, and so she very, she was like, I remember going to her afterwards and being like, Hey, look, I really need investors. 92 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:32,480 Like this hardware product, you know, I, I can tell that I, I can't afford to pay for it with my, with my own money. 93 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,520 I need to figure out where to find investors. 94 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,660 And she's like, well, I know this VC, um, maybe you'll speak to him. 95 00:07:38,660 --> 00:07:42,300 And I thought of VC was like the gatekeeper to the investors. 96 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,700 I did not understand what VC said, looking back, I should have asked. 97 00:07:46,980 --> 00:07:49,140 I didn't either when I got out of college for what it's worth. 98 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:49,900 Thank you. 99 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:56,700 And I had been teaching, you know, in elementary school for two years, like nobody I knew had that lingo. 100 00:07:56,700 --> 00:07:59,500 And I always say to tell people, it's like, look, I was a Spanish teacher. 101 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:00,340 It's vocabulary. 102 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,900 Like you have to just get used to a new set of vocabulary, but that's it. 103 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,360 Like, it's not some hard to reach concept. 104 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,160 If you just tackle the words kind of like one at a time. 105 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,340 Um, and so met Seth, pitched him on our idea. 106 00:08:15,180 --> 00:08:19,520 Um, he was like, you're a little early for us, go hit some more milestones and come back. 107 00:08:19,700 --> 00:08:21,420 And I was like, all right, I don't know what that means. 108 00:08:21,660 --> 00:08:24,100 But, you know, we decided to do a Kickstarter. 109 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:26,780 Um, this is way before we met you all. 110 00:08:26,860 --> 00:08:31,300 So we did the Kickstarter because we had that janky prototype that you plug into a wall and it'd work. 111 00:08:31,740 --> 00:08:40,300 Um, and as we were, uh, organizing and coordinating what would end up being a successful Kickstarter campaign, we raised 90,000 in 45 days. 112 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,040 So I looped back to Seth three months later and shared our progress. 113 00:08:44,540 --> 00:08:49,240 Um, and at that point, Seth said, I'm in, um, send, you know, tell me your terms. 114 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,160 And thank God I'd read Jane Miller's book coming for a circle. 115 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:54,560 Cause in her book, it says, don't lie. 116 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,140 Like, if you don't know what they're talking about, ask. 117 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,560 And I was like, terms, I was like, Hey Seth, um, I want to make sure we're on the same page here. 118 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:09,320 If you could just send me some resources to make sure that any terms I send you are aligned with what you're thinking, that would be great. 119 00:09:09,820 --> 00:09:13,460 And that's when I got, uh, Brad Feld's blogs on convertible debt. 120 00:09:13,860 --> 00:09:16,820 And I had won some free legal at startup week. 121 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:22,420 And so between the free legal and his blogs, I just spent three days crafting terms. 122 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:26,180 Um, and remember I used to want to go to law school, so I kind of love anything legal. 123 00:09:26,180 --> 00:09:28,020 I can, I get really nerdy about it. 124 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:29,460 Um, sent it to Seth. 125 00:09:29,540 --> 00:09:32,640 I, I, um, I made it blue, threw up our logo. 126 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,640 Like, I felt like very legally blonde. 127 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:40,480 I like, all I was missing was the spray of perfume and, um, he didn't respond for three days. 128 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:41,620 And I was so scared. 129 00:09:41,620 --> 00:09:45,040 I was like, Oh no, he thinks it's who sends a legal document branded. 130 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:46,420 It probably looked too girly. 131 00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:49,620 Um, he said, we're in, but we only will, I asked for 200,000. 132 00:09:49,620 --> 00:09:51,240 He's like, we'll only do it if you accept 250. 133 00:09:51,420 --> 00:09:51,980 That's our minimum. 134 00:09:51,980 --> 00:09:52,840 And I was like, what? 135 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,160 I was like, I'm in that's deal. 136 00:09:56,300 --> 00:10:01,180 Like, I don't even understand like what kind of negotiation that was, but yes, I accept more money. 137 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:02,120 Thank you. 138 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:06,860 Um, and then we got into tech stars and everything was kind of a rollercoaster after that. 139 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:08,100 That's awesome. 140 00:10:08,340 --> 00:10:13,700 I, you sound like a really excellent student of, of entrepreneurship, Jackie. 141 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,660 You know, I, I say it's one of those things that you really can't study for. 142 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,540 Like, again, the vocabulary is probably it. 143 00:10:19,620 --> 00:10:22,880 Everything else, you just kind of have to do it because even when people try to explain 144 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,700 it to you, you're going to make your own mistakes. 145 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,020 Like whenever I give advice to people now, I'm like, look, I'm going to tell you this. 146 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:29,160 You're going to take it or leave it. 147 00:10:29,260 --> 00:10:31,460 You're going to either, you're probably going to mess it up anyway. 148 00:10:31,580 --> 00:10:35,300 So just mess it up fast enough and realize it and then move on. 149 00:10:35,380 --> 00:10:40,260 But like, you can't, you can't harp on that because it, uh, but yeah, it almost, I was glad. 150 00:10:40,340 --> 00:10:44,500 I always said it was the naive, the naiveness was almost in my benefit because I was like, 151 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:45,760 why wouldn't somebody want to invest? 152 00:10:45,860 --> 00:10:47,580 This is a great product and it should exist. 153 00:10:47,580 --> 00:10:51,900 And so, um, I think having that confidence that the product needed to exist is sort of 154 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:55,580 what made that difference between, um, people caring or not. 155 00:10:55,660 --> 00:11:00,500 But I also got lucky that I met investors who are champions of first-time founders and support 156 00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:01,280 and fund them. 157 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:02,440 Yeah. 158 00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:02,740 Yeah. 159 00:11:02,740 --> 00:11:05,580 I was going to say from what I know about founder group, that that was probably a good, 160 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:09,380 a good set of investors to, to meet as you're trying to do that. 161 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:10,200 Yeah, definitely. 162 00:11:10,900 --> 00:11:15,280 So, so Jackie, is this about the time Pivotal Labs came into the picture or can, or. 163 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:20,100 Oh, so when, um, we went through our first tech starts program, um, we ended up closing 164 00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:22,720 after that program, 3 million with foundry group. 165 00:11:22,940 --> 00:11:28,240 Um, and at this point we were debating our, our hiring strategy and how do we get the product 166 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,520 and meet the product deadlines based off our Kickstarter in time, um, while growing out 167 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:34,420 the software team. 168 00:11:34,420 --> 00:11:39,060 And luckily I had a really strong CTO with hardware, uh, but we were really weak on the 169 00:11:39,060 --> 00:11:41,140 software and we needed some, some help. 170 00:11:41,140 --> 00:11:44,720 And we knew that it would take too long to hire and, and figure out the right people. 171 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,780 Um, so I remember having this discussion with our board and, you know, we, we brought forward 172 00:11:49,780 --> 00:11:52,600 a few options, but I was like, Hey, you know, I did hear about this group named Pivotal, 173 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:57,680 you know, we, we priced them out and, you know, we were a little bit like, you know, which, 174 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:58,720 which direction to go. 175 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,320 And I'll never forget our board was like Pivotal or the ninjas of software, you know, like they're 176 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,640 like, we'd rather pay to get it built correctly the first time. 177 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:13,200 Um, and when we, we met with Alex Welch, he just made the whole process just feel so effortless 178 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:14,200 and comfortable. 179 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,080 Um, so it was huge for our team to get Pivotal on board. 180 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,760 So we really quickly after closing that, um, our super seed round of 3 million. 181 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:27,200 So this was probably in like 2016, early 2016, late 2015. 182 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:35,800 Um, we, uh, engaged Pivotal at this point, we only had one and a half, uh, one was a self 183 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:41,440 taught iOS individual Juan, um, and, and, uh, UI UX individual who, who, who also did some 184 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,800 backend on our team. 185 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:49,480 Um, and Pivotal really, um, with Alex's support helped us not only shape our strategy for who 186 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,160 we would hire, they helped us train, you know, you all helped us coach up my team members. 187 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,280 Um, I probably, my biggest pride and joy was Juan from that experience. 188 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:06,740 So Juan came to me, you know, he was a friend's little cousin and, um, he, he had self taught 189 00:13:06,740 --> 00:13:11,240 himself iOS, but hadn't studied it formally in school, which having not studied at, you know, 190 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,340 what I did formally, I had a bit of a weakness for people that were, um, the underdogs and like 191 00:13:16,340 --> 00:13:19,720 trying to break into something, you know, that they had no previous experience in. 192 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,280 Um, and so I, I remember giving Juan the offer. 193 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,700 I was like, look, if you come, cause he was living in Texas. 194 00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:29,720 I was like, if you've come to Colorado, I have, I will find a way to coach you. 195 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,840 I was like, and I will make sure you have food and somewhere to sleep. 196 00:13:33,060 --> 00:13:35,060 I was like, cause this was before we raised the 3 million. 197 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:39,100 And this guy shows up in his car a week later from Texas. 198 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:44,500 And immediately just absorbed everything that pivotal taught him to the point that within 199 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:49,460 one year he had become, thanks to you all proficient in the backend, the front end iOS and Android 200 00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:53,920 and was in, ended up becoming one of our just like all-star team members. 201 00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:59,200 Um, and, uh, it just, it was just so great to, to be able to do that. 202 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,220 Cause as you think as a young nascent startup, you know, I didn't have the wherewithal and 203 00:14:03,220 --> 00:14:10,960 I was too busy focusing on investors and getting the product to market to, to really hone in on, but what are the best hiring practices? 204 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:16,020 How do I know, you know, like as a, as a non-technical founder, it was such a, you know, 205 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,420 without pivotal's help, I never would have been able to say definitively, yes, this was a good hire. 206 00:14:20,540 --> 00:14:22,960 No, I mean, not everybody we brought forward was right. 207 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:32,660 Like sometimes, you know, you all would evaluate somebody for us and say, Hey Jackie, like I know this person has nine years experience, but you know, they're, they're not testing up to par where you would want them. 208 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:40,760 Um, and so to have Alex and your team guide us was just monumental, um, to the point that the software continues to be, you know, a strength of the product. 209 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:48,960 Um, and when we did go on to try to fundraise for our next round, investors would literally say to us like this product is just, it works when it says it will. 210 00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:51,220 You know, they were, they were really impressed. 211 00:14:51,220 --> 00:14:54,960 Um, but I always, you know, I always said my strategy was to hire people way smarter than me. 212 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,340 Um, and, and that's what it did. 213 00:14:57,380 --> 00:14:59,440 And so our product came out really strong because of it. 214 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:05,540 And, you know, throughout the life cycle of the product, it had, uh, when, when I was in charge, it had an average of 4.5 stars on Amazon. 215 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,600 So it was really well architected and designed. 216 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,680 And my team benefited immensely from the training and coaching they received at Pivotal. 217 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:15,260 That's really cool. 218 00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:17,720 How long was the engagement with the last? 219 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:23,540 Actually, we ended up doing two engagements because at one point, like we just, you know, startup process, right? 220 00:15:23,540 --> 00:15:24,880 Like some people leave, some people go. 221 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,560 Um, the first engagement I want to say was nine months. 222 00:15:29,660 --> 00:15:31,260 The second engagement was six months. 223 00:15:32,060 --> 00:15:37,080 Um, and, uh, both times it was, the first time was to really help build out that team and fill it up. 224 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:47,660 And then the second time was as things were expanding quickly, we just needed help faster and sort of, um, you know, went, you know, Pivotal was, uh, sort of like, it felt like a really comfortable place for us to come back to. 225 00:15:47,660 --> 00:15:51,200 Because you all already knew our product and helped architect it from the beginning. 226 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,240 Um, so that was really great for us. 227 00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:59,440 I think it depended on the stage of the, of the product, but we ended up working with you all twice during that lifetime. 228 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:01,420 Okay. 229 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:08,960 And so, Jaggi, you talked about really having a very clear idea of what you wanted this product to be able to do. 230 00:16:09,220 --> 00:16:23,880 And I guess I'm just curious, did your work with Pivotal Labs change anything, like, like change the way you were approaching it or change any of the features or, or did they just kind of help validate and figure out how to make it happen? 231 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:45,040 Um, I think what Pivotal helped me do the most was learn how to lead my software team, you know, so from like the beginning design sessions and sort of like, what are all, you know, they, they sort of really held my hand in those beginning days of like, how do you host that initial kickoff meeting and figure out what's necessary in the MVP and what, what isn't, how do you shape a software product roadmap? 232 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:54,960 Um, and so for, as the leader of the company, right, I needed to know how to lead my team and lead those conversations without dictating what should be happening next. 233 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:04,440 Um, and we let a lot of our, you know, beyond the initial vision, we really try to lean heavily on, on user feedback and on customer, um, you know, feedback and things like that. 234 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,920 And, and, uh, Pivotal showed us how to integrate that into our workflow. 235 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:24,540 Um, but for me, those were, you know, since I wasn't in the day to day of the coding, um, that those were the big takeaways for me as the CEO of a startup that was trying to learn how to grow and manage a team, um, at the same time as learning how to, you know, grow and manage, you know, our investor pool and all that jazz. 236 00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:33,180 Can I ask, I mean, I mean, so, so as you mentioned, when you were, you, you're not with Revelar anymore, you've kind of moved into the entrepreneurial space. 237 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:48,760 I won't, I won't ask you to divulge your, your current, uh, pro your current project, but I I'm curious what, like, you know, just, just generally speaking, I mean, do you, how do you look at the labs experience and relate that maybe to. 238 00:17:49,460 --> 00:18:05,960 Like other startups who are out there or, or, and where, um, so our engagement with Pivotal made it possible for us to move fast, save money in the long run, because we weren't having to, you know, rebuild bad code. 239 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:12,400 We weren't having to, um, you know, if, if we lost somebody or somebody moved away, we didn't lose that knowledge. 240 00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:27,960 Um, and, and when I looked at some of my friends who decided to go a different path or first only hire in house before sort of, you know, giving themselves the time to hire the right people, you know, especially in hardware, they didn't deliver products for like two, three years after they were supposed to. 241 00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:38,280 Um, and so overwhelmingly the feedback I got externally was, it was almost like a shock of like, how did you all move so fast and build such a strong product? 242 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:44,020 Um, and I was always very open that we were engaged with Pivotal and that, that they were helping make that software come to life. 243 00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:50,880 I'll never forget Brad Feld in my interview for when we were getting funding, Brad goes to me, what's more important, the hardware, the software. 244 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,300 And I was like, whew, how am I supposed to answer that question? 245 00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:54,560 Right? 246 00:18:54,580 --> 00:18:55,260 Like, I don't know. 247 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:56,940 They're both, they both have to work. 248 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,500 And he was like, he's like, that may be right for the first launch. 249 00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:02,880 He's like, but in the long run, he's like, it's the software. 250 00:19:03,220 --> 00:19:04,920 The software is the magic, right? 251 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,800 Like hardware is software wrapped. 252 00:19:07,660 --> 00:19:11,600 Um, and, um, it was just such an eyeopening experience. 253 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:19,960 That's not only how investors view the value of the business, but also like their understanding of how that software would lead to the right experience for our users. 254 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,120 And whether the hardware was played or not, if that software didn't function, it was useful. 255 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:35,380 Um, and so it, it was, uh, it was very eyeopening, but, um, I, I look at so many startups that are just so like, you know, I mentor a bunch of them. 256 00:19:35,380 --> 00:19:45,040 And I sometimes, you know, I watch how they're building or what they're doing and you try to give them the feedback, but I'm like, you know, if you've been developing a product for five years and nobody still gets it and it's still really buggy. 257 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,620 I'm like, you've got to admit that you're maybe not the right team to build this thing. 258 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:54,780 Um, you know, and you have to be able to find your product makes product market fit sooner than that. 259 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,060 So for us, um, I felt like we got a huge leg up working with pivotal labs. 260 00:19:59,060 --> 00:20:09,120 I felt like, um, our software was really robust and that was always, um, a plus for us and, and overwhelmingly led to really great feedback from our users and from our investors. 261 00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:11,660 Uh, we ended up selling the business in 2017. 262 00:20:12,060 --> 00:20:13,880 There was definitely a bit of a long story there. 263 00:20:14,380 --> 00:20:20,300 Um, but even when the new owners came in, they're like, wow, this is like really, really solid, solidly built. 264 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,240 And I was like, yeah, we were, we were very lucky to find people that helped us from day one. 265 00:20:24,540 --> 00:20:28,500 Um, you know, create a strong foundation for our product. 266 00:20:28,980 --> 00:20:32,380 Um, so it allowed us to add a lot of features quickly, a lot of smooth quickly. 267 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:37,560 Um, and, uh, no, it was just an overall really positive experience for us. 268 00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:39,420 We're really proud of the products that we launched. 269 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:42,280 Very cool. 270 00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:42,540 Yeah. 271 00:20:42,540 --> 00:20:45,300 I felt like we, I abruptly shifted away from Revelar. 272 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,260 I hope she, I hope we, I hope we circle back, but yes. 273 00:20:48,460 --> 00:20:50,560 So yes, company was sold, still exists. 274 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:51,240 Right. 275 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,020 So just the, to complete the circle, the server, whatever, like, yes. 276 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:55,520 Yes. 277 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,020 I'm no longer involved. 278 00:20:57,020 --> 00:21:00,420 Um, and then I worked for my former investors at Techstars for two years. 279 00:21:00,820 --> 00:21:06,040 I've now just accepted a, a new role, which will, you know, be out soon, but I'll be in the clean tech space. 280 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:12,780 And so, um, and funny enough, just made a recommendation to a friend who was looking for help on the software side to, to speak with you all. 281 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:19,940 So, um, you know, I think that a lot of that sort of the community and what you learn from each other does come full circle in many ways. 282 00:21:23,820 --> 00:21:24,180 Right. 283 00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:35,940 Did you, did you learn a, do you see a, notice a difference between, especially maybe when you're at Techstars and helping advice startups, do you notice a difference between, or, or, I mean, I'm sure there is a difference. 284 00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:53,700 Like, what are the differences, I guess, between a, a, a, an engineering led startup, maybe, you know, a few computer science graduates get together and, and decide to do something or, or versus, you know, more of an experience that you had, or it's a project of passion or some, someone comes with subject matter expertise, but. 285 00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:59,260 You know, a lack of engineering know-how, like, do you do see a difference in how they, they approach building up products? 286 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:08,300 When I look at the founders, so, you know, you're talking about sort of like a technical led team or other at Techstars, they really push to help you balance out the team early on. 287 00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:08,660 Right. 288 00:22:08,740 --> 00:22:13,240 So for me, that meant hiring a lot of technical, um, because that was definitely my biggest weakness. 289 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,180 I was never going to be able to build the Revelar products by myself. 290 00:22:17,980 --> 00:22:24,020 Um, I, I, I almost wouldn't say that I see a difference between being engineer led or being passion led. 291 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:29,560 I see a difference between founders who are comfortable not being the smartest person in the room and founders who aren't. 292 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:44,120 Um, so it's almost less the division of that, but more of the, you know, I've seen engineering teams that are brilliant engineers, but who really don't like biz dev or biz dev people, and they refuse to hire for it. 293 00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:49,840 So they build these phenomenal products, but they're never able to figure out their channel strategy or their marketing strategy. 294 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:58,160 Um, and, and, you know, it's because they, they seem uncomfortable with those concepts or they don't hire the right people for those concepts and vice versa. 295 00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:58,560 Right. 296 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,300 I see a lot of people, they're like, oh, I'd rather hire like, you know, really young and hungry. 297 00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:08,900 I'm like, yeah, young and hungry is great to a certain degree, but at some point you need this thing to exist. 298 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:19,920 This has to be real if somebody is going to invest in it and if people are going to buy it, um, you know, and so what I've seen frequently be that difference is, you know, someone's comfort. 299 00:23:19,980 --> 00:23:24,060 I'll never forget my investors, like even with one big hire I was making, they're like, why are you hiring this person? 300 00:23:24,060 --> 00:23:26,600 And I said, well, you know, I don't know what I don't know. 301 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,140 And I've never done that piece of the business. 302 00:23:28,140 --> 00:23:32,580 So I need to hire somebody with X amount of experience because I can't just hire anybody into that role. 303 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,720 I need someone that'll balance me out. 304 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:40,880 Um, and they're like, that's really great to hear and makes us feel better about like why you're hiring certain people. 305 00:23:41,340 --> 00:23:47,020 Um, so part of it is a conversation with your board, but it also, as a founder, just acknowledging your strengths and weaknesses. 306 00:23:47,020 --> 00:23:50,400 I was a subject matter expert on the lack of safety, right? 307 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:51,280 Like I had lived it. 308 00:23:51,340 --> 00:23:52,400 My family had lived it. 309 00:23:52,460 --> 00:23:53,400 I had studied it. 310 00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:56,580 Um, I was, you know, on the front lines doing those initial interviews. 311 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,400 Um, I became one of the world's foremost experts on sexual violence and how to tackle it. 312 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,060 Um, but I didn't have that other knowledge. 313 00:24:04,060 --> 00:24:13,220 And I knew that in a VC backed company, you have a short timeframe to show results, meaning sales, 314 00:24:13,220 --> 00:24:16,440 and you can't get sales without a product launching. 315 00:24:16,940 --> 00:24:22,820 And so, you know, you, you have to be comfortable with trusting your team and trusting the people you work with. 316 00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:27,500 Um, but that's again, why I was grateful for Pivotal because they already had, you know, you all, sorry, 317 00:24:27,580 --> 00:24:32,460 you're already had an outstanding reputation, which made both my, made me comfortable. 318 00:24:32,460 --> 00:24:35,600 Also, Alex Welch is just easy to work with and amazing. 319 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,180 And it made my board really comfortable, you know, and, and they were our biggest supporters. 320 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,880 And so, um, for me, when you can find a team and put a team together that everybody is happy about 321 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:51,000 and you're, you as the founder are learning something new every day from your team, you've done the right thing. 322 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:56,560 I mean, overwhelmingly, probably the thing I'm most proud of at Revelar was the team and the, and the people we worked with. 323 00:24:56,940 --> 00:25:00,880 Because I just felt like we worked with great people who were there to try to help others. 324 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,520 Um, and we're willing to coach and, and share information. 325 00:25:03,940 --> 00:25:12,220 Um, so I never felt like, um, like it was an issue that I didn't know those things because there was a mutual respect for what everybody was a subject matter expert in. 326 00:25:12,660 --> 00:25:13,880 Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. 327 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:35,400 And I was just thinking when you were talking about this need for kind of a balance of, you know, the technical and the biz dev and the marketing and all these different areas of expertise that you need to bring as a founder, I was kind of thinking how there's a parallel there with what Pivotal Labs, um, likes to call the balanced team approach to software development. 328 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:48,320 So even on that kind of technical side, you know, we're really big advocates of having someone who's, um, you know, also a designer and the product manager and the engineer working together. 329 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:55,960 Um, so anyway, I just think it, it really reinforces that need for, for a balanced approach, um, all aspects. 330 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,880 And your team runs a really tight ship, which gave my team really great habits, you know, the standups. 331 00:26:02,380 --> 00:26:10,980 Um, we actually took waffle Wednesdays and once we had our own office, kept that alive because my team was so sad to no longer have access to your waffle Wednesdays. 332 00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:14,260 Um, we actually adopted that habit. 333 00:26:14,620 --> 00:26:16,100 Um, but it was, it was great. 334 00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:20,140 Like it, it allowed me to focus on other parts of the business that mattered. 335 00:26:20,140 --> 00:26:22,540 And with a hardware company, it's just so complex. 336 00:26:22,540 --> 00:26:30,380 You need strong people in your corners so that you can focus on that bigger picture and make sure that the, you know, the trains are all running on time. 337 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:37,220 Um, and so I felt like Pivotal Labs empowered us to do that while helping us coach up our team to the point that we didn't miss a beat. 338 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:38,520 Yeah. 339 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:44,240 And I was going to say, I mean, just thinking of, especially in the, in the space that Reveler operates, like the product has to work. 340 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:50,560 There's not a, a, there's not a lot of leeway for, for, for it to be laggy or buggy. 341 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:55,080 And I mean, I've, especially from Kickstarter, you, you know, you've seen some lovely hardware, right? 342 00:26:55,140 --> 00:26:56,860 And I've, I've, I've ordered some of it. 343 00:26:56,900 --> 00:27:01,440 And then when it comes, the software side of it is really, really underwhelming. 344 00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:03,740 And you're like, well, that was a few hundred bucks down the drain. 345 00:27:05,020 --> 00:27:12,760 And it's frustrating, but with safety, we, we felt a, a deep need, you know, we couldn't launch something that didn't work every time we said it would. 346 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:19,900 Um, they're, they're, like you said, they're just, this isn't some widget, this was people buying it because they genuinely felt a lack of safety in their life. 347 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:24,500 And, um, it, it was just really great to, to know that our product was that stable. 348 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:26,560 Yeah. 349 00:27:26,660 --> 00:27:39,480 And the other thing, the other thing I thought you said that was really interesting, especially from the startup perspective is, is talking about your board and talking about, because, because the stakeholders, again, aren't just employees or users or whomever. 350 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:46,820 Like if you're, if you're a startup, especially, you know, you, you have different stakeholders and, and making them comfortable is part of the game. 351 00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:47,700 Right. 352 00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:53,880 And I think, I think that's a, just, you know, kind of one of those things that it's probably behooves founders to think about is that. 353 00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:54,500 Yes. 354 00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:03,520 Not to say you have to use Pivotal Labs, but the idea that giving them the comfort, giving them the comfort and knowing that you're actually building something in a reliable manner. 355 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:04,360 Exactly. 356 00:28:04,820 --> 00:28:11,840 And, um, especially as a first time founder, especially as a non-technical founder, you know, really getting those, you want everybody to be aligned. 357 00:28:11,940 --> 00:28:14,000 You want your investors to be comfortable with your strategy. 358 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,120 They deserve that respect. 359 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:19,740 They deserve, you know, like, at least for me, like I loved, I had, I loved working with my board. 360 00:28:19,740 --> 00:28:24,020 I had a lot of learnings as a first time founder, learning to manage and work with a board. 361 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:30,580 I definitely had, you know, made a few mistakes along, like learning how, how frequently to communicate and things like that. 362 00:28:30,580 --> 00:28:37,960 But, um, the one thing we were always on the same page about was, um, you know, the, the hiring strategy and, and why we'd gone down that route. 363 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,680 And, uh, for us that meant working with Pivotal in the early days. 364 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:55,460 Jackie, I wondered, you were just talking about all your learnings and I, I wondered if, you know, if there was like one key takeaway or like lesson learned that you could pass along to like a new founder, what would that be? 365 00:28:55,460 --> 00:29:09,640 Not to put you on the spot, but no, no, no, no, I think the, I had, I mean, a million and one mistakes I made, you know, from going to retail too soon to data, but probably one of the two biggest ones I had one is easy is bad news has to travel fast, right? 366 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:15,940 Like when something doesn't go right, speak up soon, tell everybody who is a stakeholder, um, they want to feel like part of the team. 367 00:29:16,020 --> 00:29:17,560 They want to help you solve problems. 368 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:23,880 Um, and so reaching out to them sooner than later really helps create a transparent, uh, line of communication. 369 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:33,940 But when it comes from team management perspective, I think my biggest takeaway was that there is a balance between hiring really smart people, but hiring people that are right for your face. 370 00:29:34,660 --> 00:29:37,400 Um, you know, I, I really, we had a really hard time. 371 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:45,100 It took us years and we never really found the right VP of software and the entire five, six years that I ran Revelar, we never had a strong VP of software. 372 00:29:45,260 --> 00:29:51,100 We always worked with pivotal to help us because we just had a, well, I found a great fit for every other role. 373 00:29:51,300 --> 00:30:01,740 That one role, we always had a hard time finding somebody that fit because either they, they weren't comfortable working with Bluetooth products or, um, they were too far along, et cetera. 374 00:30:01,740 --> 00:30:05,900 And so probably our biggest takeaway was having the right team at the right time. 375 00:30:06,660 --> 00:30:17,000 And, um, you know, maybe somebody had taken a company in sales from 50 million to 1.2 billion, but if they have never taken a company from 1 million to 10 million, um, they weren't going to be the right fit. 376 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,800 Cause their skillset was not the right fit unless they were willing to learn a new skillset. 377 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:31,880 Um, and for us with, with product team, that meant, um, being able to leverage pivotal in those early days so that we could make those right hires at the right time, um, while still meeting our deadlines. 378 00:30:32,060 --> 00:30:42,460 Um, and that gave us the flexibility to, to really be picky and, and only bring on people internally that we felt really confident would be a great fit, both culturally, um, and other. 379 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:49,860 And so, uh, for us, like that hybrid team approach, we actually use that both on the software and on the, on the hardware side. 380 00:30:50,340 --> 00:30:52,480 Um, and it just, it worked really well for us. 381 00:30:52,780 --> 00:31:03,160 And so I think that, um, you know, some, some founders are, you know, they get worried about, you know, maybe engaging with outside individuals because they want to control everything. 382 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:09,200 But finding that right team at the right time, like I felt like we found pivotal and were able to work with you all at the right time. 383 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,560 Like we had just closed enough money. 384 00:31:10,780 --> 00:31:13,180 We were nine months out from launch. 385 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:21,200 That was the time we needed to really hit the ground running, um, and make sure that, you know, we had dotted our I's and crossed our T's before this launch. 386 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:29,820 And, um, that gave us the flexibility to do so without that pressure of, oh no, we, you know, that person we thought was going to be a culture fit wasn't. 387 00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:30,740 And, and, you know, that happens. 388 00:31:30,740 --> 00:31:32,440 That's a normal part of startups. 389 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:38,140 Um, I remember naively thinking, you know, I'd never let anybody go, um, or ever have to. 390 00:31:38,140 --> 00:31:41,000 And, um, you realize that that's just not realistic. 391 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:47,140 And so being able to have a team that you can depend and trust while getting that off the ground is, is pretty priceless. 392 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:48,120 Thanks a lot. 393 00:31:48,220 --> 00:31:49,100 Really, really insightful. 394 00:31:49,260 --> 00:31:49,780 Appreciate it. 395 00:31:50,340 --> 00:31:51,280 Oh, thank you all. 396 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,840 Um, you know, pivotal really did make such a big difference for us. 397 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,860 So, uh, was excited to speak with you and your community today. 398 00:31:56,860 --> 00:31:58,380 So thank you for having me. 399 00:31:58,380 --> 00:31:59,220 Oh, thanks Jackie. 400 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:00,760 Thanks everyone for listening.