Well, we have another SpringOne coming up. Now this year, it's just SpringOne, no platform. It's implied. The platform is implied in there. Like, how does that joke go? What's in English grammar where there's something's implied? Like it's, there's some phrase where it's like that, that is. I don't know. You don't have to pronounce it because it's in there or you do pronounce it. I before E except after C. Right. Except for all the things that break the rules. We're working on spelling with my son and I'm like, this is the rule except for like OU, right? OU makes this sound except for the times where it makes the uh sound. And then the time that makes the ooh sound. That's super fun. Yeah. You know, the thing they don't tell you about English when you're learning it is just like, you'll figure it out. Exactly. So many exceptions. Eventually you'll remember. I just don't, I can't imagine what it's like to learn English as a second language. Like it's, cause you know, I've, I've, I've gone through, I don't speak any of these either at all or much at all. But you know, I, in, in my career as a student, I've learned Japanese, French, Spanish, and a tiny bit of Dutch. And you know, they, they start off trying to, well, the Dutch one, I learned in slightly a different way, more of an immersion, not immersion, but sort of less structured. But the other ones, they start off in a structured way. They try to tell you the theory of the language and how it goes and like the grammar and the structure. And just like with English, I don't know what you would do. You would just be like, over here, we've got some rationality and grammar and theory. And this is, this is sort of like, you know, when you go to the Lego store and there's that display of a cool built Lego set. And then you go home and you've got a giant box just full of crap. Like, and that's, that's more or less like what the rest of English is.
2:01And it's just like, what you can basically do is you can take these pieces and assemble them together. And every now and then, actually more frequently than you would like, you come across this one Lego piece and you're like, I have no idea what this is or how this would fit into anything. And it makes no sense. And at one point, all of these Legos were a cool city and a dragon. And now they are just a pile of bricks in a box that when I put them together, just look like, you know, a plastic factory threw up and it solidified into something that had 90 degree angles. I think that's, that's sort of like, that's English for you. Yeah. That's how it goes. There we go. Well, you know, something that's not disorganized, Rita, is SpringOne. And the agenda in it. It's very well curated and put together. Now it is presented in English. So we got that going on. But I want, I, you know, we wanted to go over some of the sessions we're looking forward to. Now it's being broadcast tomorrow, September 2nd and 3rd. It's live. You can sign up for free. It's great. Now, also, if you haven't heard this in time to go to sign up for it and check it out, we'll have the videos online eventually. So you can go look at them. But, you know, it's more fun to see it live because you'll be able to ask questions. And do I have this right? Like we have, the sessions are like 25 minutes or 45 minutes. And then there's like a hallway Q&A hallway. I'm doing air quotes for like 15 minutes. So you can go ask people things afterwards. That's right. It seems like it'll be sophisticated to use an English word. It'll be fun. Yeah. And there's some fun sessions. And, you know, I have to say not to be too self-congratulatory, although I had nothing to do with it. I love the way that the schedule is laid out this year online. It is clean, easy to read. It's got good colors. I just found it so easy to navigate. And so I want to thank our web people for that. They did a great job. You know, that's true. I think it'll be fun to see what the post-conference thing is, too, because that's also, I think, a critical part for an online conference.
4:07And, you know, have you noticed that sessions, I think, maybe from last year's SpringOne are still being posted on QCon? It's just sort of like the conference that never ends, like certain other vendors that have like 15-week conferences that keep going on and on. Yeah, I certainly go back and share sessions from last year, even 2018. I mean, because some of them are just timeless, if you will, you know, particularly the customer-led sessions and the case studies, the lessons learned and all that. So those are great. We've got tons of customer-led sessions, which we will be discussing today. Yeah, yeah. Well, you and I, and along with someone else, co-chaired the, what do we call it, the agile leadership track. And so, yeah, definitely, like, this is what I always try to tell people when I'm trying to get them interested in SpringOne, is we, at least in the tracks that I'm involved in, we, I know firsthand that we spend a lot of effort trying to get more or less as many users, as it were, giving presentations as possible. Because, of course, us on the vendor side are going to tell you how awesome things are. Like, that's, that's, you're just going to hear that day and night. But it's nice to hear how people actually put things in place, the tactics that they've done. And I think there'll be, there'll be plenty of that, as we've seen at SpringOne's Pass. So, anyhow, how about, how about we'll go over, we'll see what we have time for, but like two or three of the sessions, and then we can kind of laundry list the other ones. But how about you start? Tell me one that you're, you're looking forward to. Oh, gosh. Well, honestly, mostly because of the title, and I also, the presenter is somebody I've worked with before, is the T-Mobile blank on fire. I can't, it's an expletive, and there's, if you look on the website, it's got all those weird numbers and things on there. It's on Thursday, it's by T-Mobile, and it's talking about managing distributed systems. It's on Thursday, I think at 8.30 Pacific time, 8.30 a.m. And Brendan A. is presenting it with, with somebody else from T-Mobile, and I've worked with him.
6:08He's a great presenter, really gets it. You know, they were one of the first pivotal customers that I worked with, and they were the first to start using the term customers when they refer to their developers. Oh, that's fun. My experience, right, I don't know, but there were others as well, so I loved that, and I was always like, make sure you explain, when you say customers, you mean internal developers, because that is that mindset, right, particularly from the upside that we're trying to instill in folks to change how they think about the platforms that they build and curate and manage, right? So, that's on Thursday. Yeah, you know, I think, it's always been a mystery to me that, like, people are always following and market sizing and stuff, telcos, right? It seemed like a weird space. And now that I've had, you know, talk with telcos, especially who work with us in, whether it was at Pivotal or at VMware Tanzu or whatever, you realize, one, they have huge scale, right? So, all of this kind of scaling talk that people are interested in, they have it. And two, they are either real-time or super neo-real-time, so they've got that challenge. And then three, like, the other interesting thing about them is, like, they generally provide, they provide not all of everything they do, but they generally provide a lot of services that everyone uses, so they're easy to understand. So, it's sort of, like, makes sense. Like, they're not obscure, sort of strange, weird things. It's just like, yeah, when you make a phone call, every single thing that comes into you making a phone call has some software that we have that facilitates that. And then also on the, I don't know what they call it, but the cable side, right? Your Comcast of the world. I mean, they're all driven by software as well. So, it's sort of like, you know, the online banking software. Like, it's a great place to get examples from because, more or less, we all understand banking because we tend to be involved in it, unless we're, like, tinfoil hat people.
8:08Like, you know, you can get a good reference for, like, what the software is, the challenges people would have, and, you know, why it's relevant. As opposed to, like, you know, for as great as use cases from music streaming services and advertising companies are, it's a very small slice of the business world. Correct. So, it's unknown if those things are perfectly applicable to the rest of the world. Love a telco. Yeah, they're good. The other, actually, okay, so, I hate the term DevSecOps. I just think it's kind of goofy. Nonetheless, it's what it is. It's here to stay, it seems like. There's at least three sessions that talk about it that I think are going to be good. Two of them actually have it in the title, right? One of them is called DevSecOps with Confidence. It's on Wednesday at 11.30 Pacific time. It's talking about shipping secure code faster. And, actually, that's a theme that's in all three of these sessions, right? You know, how do you maintain consistency and all that stuff? And the other one is a practical DevSecOps using security instrumentation by contrast security. Also similar. And then there's another one by Garmin called Handling Secrets in Your Cloud Native Architecture. Oh, that's good. Yeah, that one's specific to Tanzu Application Service, right? It talks about how to integrate Tanzu Application Service with your backend security system. So, that trio was intriguing to me. And, again, I found myself thinking, what am I doing here? But here we are. Yeah, Garmin's worked with us for a long time. Like, I remember I even had occasion to go to their office. Where is it? In Kansas City? Is it Arkansas or Kansas? Something like that. Yeah, yeah. I think it's in Kansas. I was remembering it's in one of those places, one of those American Midwest cities that has a weird name. Because it's like Kansas City, but it's in Missouri. Like, that's how Kansas City works, if I remember, right?
10:10Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then there's also like... I think there's one Kansas City, Kansas. Isn't there two Kansas Cities? Or am I making that up? Yeah. I could be making that up. This is American school system geography, right? That's right. We were too busy trying to figure out grammar, how a semicolon works. It was one or the other. Couldn't do both. You know, I need to write. I need to study how you can combine together a colon and a semicolon in a sentence and just write a little essay about that. Because that was a big... You know, I had to read a lot of Victorian literature, being like an English... I was a major at one point, then I became a minor. And like, you encounter that a lot if you're paying attention and you actually read the Victorian literature. They love to like just throw in a colon and then a bunch of semicolons. And that kind of like... That just like... Speaking of the trash heap that is English, that just boggled my mind. Like what was going on there. It was like almost like proto-programming. If you understood the rules of what was happening, it probably made sense. Because I think you can use a semicolon to both conjoin together very similar complete sentences. Yeah. But also to demark a list of items. Okay. So you could almost say like, you know, Rita went to the grocery store because she was in need. She needed meat. You know, you would say colon, pork, colon, beef, colon. You mean semicolon. Or semicolon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyways, I need to look that up. That was a strange digression. Yeah, you know, I love me a semicolon. That's my favorite of the punctuation marks. I don't know why, but I love it. I like to use... I don't know. Because I think it's one of those... Because I think it's because it's both a colon and a comma. And it's like... It's very indecisive. Yeah. I love it. It's right there on the threshold. I can relate to a semicolon. If I were a punctuation mark, I'd be a semicolon. It's a regular liminal punctuation. It could be a test. What punctuation mark are you?
12:10A personality test. Anyway. Yeah. You know, and it's been fun looking through... You know, I think in the past two years, when you look through talks, there is a lot of like DevSecOps things, right? And I think what... I don't know. I'm just kind of thinking off the top of my head. But I think maybe the security world has kind of cottoned on to this notion of like automating things and kind of, as they say, shifting left. Getting involved in the process earlier is actually not only beneficial for my own personal sanity, but also results in better security and me being able to accomplish my job rather than sort of taking on the position of... I was remembering when I was talking with someone yesterday, an enterprise architect once told me that like rather than policing, they wanted to partner with people, right? And I think security people have this kind of policing mentality where they want to go and limit the damage that developers are doing rather than facilitating them doing things well. And, you know, again, I have no basis for this, but I feel like security people have been sort of like coming over to more of the optimistic way of looking at things. So that's nice. I think next we need to have the compliance people. And I think that'll be tricky because I don't think most compliance people, and I don't mean this as an insult, I don't think most compliance people are very technical, right? Like, I think they're, they don't quite... They want to make sure you're following the rules. Like, these are the rules and you need to follow them. And I don't really care. And again, not to be, I'm not being dismissive of their work and value because that's important because some of those rules are expensive if you break them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, the whole shift left thing, and I think about, you know, VMware is super hot on and really dedicated to this concept of intrinsic security, which is that all our products are going to have some, a certain level of security enhancing features, right?
14:13Throughout them, right? And so, like, I think of it as, you know, when you're cooking, you salt throughout the process. You know, just salt the end or the beginning, you salt it around. Let me interrupt you. Do you put salt in scrambled eggs before you scramble them? No, that I don't. Okay. But I also don't make scrambled eggs because that's an abomination as far as I'm concerned because yolk, runny yolk, come on, man. Runny yolk is, makes life worth living. Although I will say, I have had scrambled eggs that they cook with the cream, like the French style, that are almost custardy. That's some good stuff. Yeah, well, you know, I, so, so to, to close out this, that interrupting footnote, the reason that I make scrambled eggs so much is I cook my kids breakfast tacos almost every morning and that's what, yeah, that's what you do. Yeah. Right. But I'm a runny yolk person. So that's why. Anyway, back to the thing. And yeah, intrinsic security. And we need to have a security person come and join us on this and talk to us or maybe even a couple of them. So, so if you're listening and you're into security, give us a shout. So we've got a lot, we've got a lot of SpringOne talks on that topic. Now I, I, I, I have the, uh, so one that I'm looking forward to there's a, so I did an interview over on, um, my software to find talk podcast. We do interviews on there every now and then, not just talking about like a name infrastructure stuff. Uh, but I did one with, uh, Yana Werner and, uh, just talking about her experience at, uh, Tesco, uh, Tesco bank and a, um, a white paper that she wrote with Barry O'Reilly. And she's giving a talk. I forget which day it's on, but she's giving a talk. That's basically kind of an experience report of doing product product management. Uh, and, um, it's kind of driven by a lot of, uh, there's, there's a lot of interesting stories going on at the moment about because of like COVID pandemic, whatever you want to call it stuff. There's many organizations like hers that were forced to, uh, do something very quickly. Right. There was as, as, uh, one of the old, uh, VPs of strategy I used to work for would say
16:17there were some exogenous circumstances, uh, which is to say exogenous being an outside force. I think they call that a, uh, a headwind also is another, another BS phrase. But essentially, you know, uh, if you were in banking, there were a lot of government programs to give out small loans and give money out and someone needed to one. I mean, you know, it's not just like a truck backs up and like in some world war two movie, they're throwing out a bunch of Hershey bars, right? Like you actually, I guess that was that one movie, right? Was it the empire of the sun? Uh, but you know, anyways, it's not just like that. Like you have to like set up a program. People need to apply for it. They have to get tracked. You've got to have an approval process. You've got to like prove you've done the governance account for like, there's a tremendous amount of software that had to be written like lickety split. Yep. And so in many examples, uh, you know, organizations, I think what's interesting is they, I don't know, this is a theory is that they could have taken their time to sort of digitally transform to get better. But now they had a, uh, exogenous force that required them to actually do it quickly. And, and I think, you know, this is a theory that I have, and I have, I have like one of these executive round tables later this week where I want to discuss this topic with people, but I think it sort of proved to people that like there was kind of sort of in two meanings of this phrase, no reason to not do it in the past. Right. Which is to say one, they could have totally done it, but two, they didn't need to. Right. So there was really like, you know, it's fun to get better at software and it would be cool, but like, there's no pressing need to do it necessarily. Right. For a lot of organizations. And so they kind of, I'm using this phrase, like slow roll it, but they do it at an appropriate speed. Right. It's sort of like, I don't know how you are, but it's not like my house is perfectly clean every single day. It only gets like cleaned up when it sort of needs to. Right. And like, similarly, like you don't have to always have your portfolio in a perfect situation.
18:20You just do it when you need to. So anyways, like it'd be, it'll be interesting to see how with all of the, uh, the crazy stuff happening this year, how it's sort of proven to people that they can, uh, get fit, uh, very quickly. So her talk is kind of adjacent to that in the sense that like she, she, uh, she, in her organization and, and, uh, also I think in doing kind of the work, uh, with, with this O'Reilly guy, kind of figuring out how organizations change. She has a lot of reflections sort of on the next step of that, which is like, once you've gone through this experience of kind of being rushed to being forced to change and doing it kind of gleefully, like that's one of the findings you, you find out with these people is that people actually enjoy doing a good job. Yeah. Like it's, but what, what do you do after that to kind of make it sustainable? Like, how do you learn from what's happening there? How do you take the good parts and, uh, kind of keep doing them? And I, yeah, and I went over this talk with her a couple of weeks ago, um, and she's got about like eight or six sort of high level items, kind of like patterns or lessons that she's had. And I'll, I'll go over one. I don't want to reveal too many, but I think, I think it's a, she's got a good, and this is, this is an example of the kind of talk that I always try to curate, which is like, tell me actual things to do, right? Like tactics of how to have good behavior. Um, and, and I think, I think one of, as an example of that, like one of the things that I think is important that she goes over in a couple of different ways is that it's really important to pay attention to, to spend time educating the executives or the leaders, right? Because a lot of the time to be sympathetic to it, right? Um, the executives who are in charge of things, right? Who approve how you spend your time and your budget, your priorities, they sort of know, they know the effect that needs to happen, the end result, but they don't, it's not really
20:20their job to understand how it happens. And so if you sort of go to them and you talk about like, we need this to happen and we need that to happen. And like, you've got all these complaints and you haven't sort of like educated them about what's going to happen and what needs, you know, like what the expectations are be and how, you know, how things actually occur, things are going to be difficult. So in that same way that you want, as we were talking about earlier, you want to like shift security to the left, right? It's almost like you need to shift executives to the left, right? Like you've got to involve them early on and make sure that everyone's sort of like on board with how things are functioning and they know what to expect. And there's another, another point that, uh, when we were going over that she raised up, which is, it's easy to take this kind of idea very cynically, but I think it's more indicative of, uh, there's this phrase that years ago that I heard, which is it's applicable to all walks of life, which is, um, this is not for you. And, and this phrase applies. For example, if you're in a technical group and someone says, oh, I'm sorry, I've got to go work on the, uh, the Gantt chart to give it the weekly status meeting. And the phrase Gantt chart in our world just means that like, you're doing things terribly wrong and you should, as they used to say a couple of years ago, reconsider your life choices. Um, however, it's not for you, right? Like if that's your reaction for some people, especially like in project management or like kind of way up the stack of executives, like a Gantt chart is a tool, right? Like you can look at it, you know how it works. It's a perfect piece of information that allows you to understand what's going on and think about decisions and how you're kind of like going about your job. So sometimes you have to do that, right? Like whether it seems to make sense to the teams working on things or not, like it's, it's the interface that people want. It's like, sometimes you make scrambled eggs because that's what you put in breakfast tacos. Yeah, exactly. I'm cool with scrambled eggs and breakfast tacos. It's fine. You know, you mentioned this loan processing thing, you know, five serve, actually, this is probably going to be a really good one. And it's on, oh, it's during, I think it's during this session that.
22:22I'm emceeing. So on Thursday at 135 Pacific time, five serve is doing a session basically about how they process like $2 billion worth of small business loans as part of that PPP, the kind of emergency loan thing from COVID. So it's super timely. And, and to your point, like they had to do this fast. They had to do this in days. Right. So of course, five serve has been a pivotal and VMware customer for quite some time. So they probably had that foundation to move quickly, quickly, you know, they could already do it. And I'm sure with some of your folks too. So, but that was a, that's a really timely one. And I think, um, your point, uh, uh, amplifies your point here. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and it's, it's, it's probably, I mean, this is our podcast so we can talk about ourselves, but I think that is a point that's like worth emphasizing. And there was a, um, it was, it was that, uh, that Patrick Moorhead piece that he wrote about being where like, there's a quote from, uh, our friend Ian, uh, and he, and he was talking about, and I've, I've been seeing this as well, right? Like, as you were pointing out that there are several organizations that have been working on putting their new stack in place, working on their digital transformation or, uh, getting better at software, you know, and, and to be baldly, uh, whatever about it, putting as we would call it, the Tanzu application server in place or other stuff that we have in the Tanzu portfolio. And they've been working on that for a year or more. And what that means is that like, now that they need to be able to deliver on time accurately, then they can, right? So it's, it's, uh, it's like, it's like a, uh, I was going to say a nice coincidence, but it's an intended effect of putting a good platform in place that you can respond. Agility, right? Agile leadership, it allows you to be agile and respond to market demands, no matter how,
24:22and in this case, they were severe, dramatic changes, right? And they were quick. So you didn't, you know, and it's interesting because, you know, of course I did my, my AR duty, right? As an analyst relations person, I did a bunch of inquiries with the analysts asking about what they're seeing, uh, among their clients, uh, with their modernization, um, initiatives and efforts and efforts and it's like the ones that have been going at it are doubling down, right? Cause they're seeing how they were able to respond quickly. And the ones that, you know, we're kind of doing it piecemeal here and there, weren't getting the results. So they don't understand the value. So we actually, we're, we're doing some, uh, in a few weeks or around, around the world, we're going to be publishing a study, another study we commissioned with Forrester was a recontact study, uh, talking about like how COVID has changed their modernization efforts and IT budgets and stuff. So we should talk about that at some point. Cause, cause I remember I listened to a, uh, uh, a summary of it and there's some, there's some interesting stuff in there. Yeah. So it's good stuff. Anyway. Yeah. I've been, I've been, I need to think about this some more, but I've been building this theory up in my head that there's, there's, there's not only this is not exclusive to other modes, but there's kind of two modes of doing business. There's like the, uh, lowercase D disruption, like innovation business where you're just trying to invent a better light bulb or whatever. Right. And in that business, you come up with a new innovation and you figure out a way to have it exclusive to you so that you can charge as the Mark, Michael Porter's, the world would say a premium, and you can make a lot of money like Google and Facebook selling ads, right? Like, just like, boom, they got that. So that's basically, I think that's the way that most people think business functions. They're just wily and innovative, but I think the way most businesses function is they've, they've already established themselves as that and their job is to just not fail, right? Is to sustain. I'm not using, since this is a G rated podcast, I'm not using the blanket up phrase, but, but
26:22their job is to just like kind of go the course and make sure that they are resilient and bulletproof. Right. And they just kind of chug along and then in the best of all possible way, they just incrementally are better. Right. So when someone like when NFC comes out and you need to do wireless payments, they're just like, no problem. Got it. Yeah. Right. Or, or when curbside pickup is important, no problem. They can do it anyways. And so I think, I think it's really like that second set of people, of organizations that is the majority of cases out there. And we in the tech world, we in the tech world, our business is pretty much based on that first set. Like we win by being innovative and having the exclusive, we're the exclusive provider of it. So we can charge a premium. And so it's hard for us to kind of like understand, especially us thought leaders or whatever, to understand that other way of doing things. But that's the way most stuff go. So anyhow, what's another talk that you're interested in seeing? Gosh, well, you know, there's too many to list here, but I noticed there's a bunch of event driven type of sessions that I think are going to be awesome. So if you're in the event driven architecture crowd or interested in that kind of stuff, check it out. And also hot topic, the hottest of topics, spring on Kubernetes, right? Like two great tastes that taste great together. I don't know, but you know, earlier in July, like mid July of this year, we announced the availability of a spring cloud data flow on Kubernetes. So there's definitely some hotness going on there. We'll, we'll share some of that information in the show notes, but you know what BT also has, I think BT only has a keynote, but they also have a session that talks about their consumer digital commerce services. And, um, you know, this would be a British telecom or telco. I don't know if it's telco or telcom, but whatever. Yeah. Um, I, I don't either.
28:23I just, I think they go by BT. I'm just noticing that they're just doing BT these days, you know, it's one of those like get a hip, you know, maybe. Um, but I'm really excited for that one. So they have a keynote, there's a session, you know, it's like basically talking about, um, responsiveness to market dynamics and, um, customer demands. And, you know, uh, this is, they're talking about a revenue generating app that they, they built. So that's super fun. And, and, you know, I think that'll compliment nicely. Uh, our friend, James governor from red monk, who also has a keynote, by the way, at spring one, did a series of interviews, um, with, uh, Rajesh from, from BT that talks about their whole, I think they're calling it, um, oh gosh, I'm completely blanking on the name. Who was, um, oh, it doesn't matter. Uh, he did a bunch of interviews with him. Uh, and, uh, there's a series of those somewhere on our website. I'll try and dig them up for the show notes as well. So that should be cool. Yeah. Yeah. So I've actually talked with that, uh, BT team several times. Oh, there you go with them with the, uh, the canvas team. And, um, you know, I think it'll be interesting to see that because having talked with them, like they actually are following the, uh, platform as a service sort of idea where a bunch of operations people really take on that notion of DevOps and SRE and they build up a platform, you know, maybe we would have used to call this a cloud, but they build up a bunch of services that developers would use to completely act in a very self-service way. And the reason that I talk with them a lot is they did one of the parts that I think, um, a lot of people don't think about until you logically come to it is they were doing a lot of internal marketing. So I was in London and, um, Belfast, where else was I? And so some other like, uh, uh, English town and, uh, they were just doing presentations. So the teams they're about, we are the, we're the canvas team. Here's our platform. You should come use it. Here's how it works. And they would just go around doing workshops for it.
30:24And they had an entire person on that team, not just half of a person. Uh, they had an entire person just dedicated to that sort of, um, evangelism or advocacy. Yeah. Eternal evangelism. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so, and they've been doing that for a couple of years now. And so I think, I think a lot of what they would have to say is an interesting sort of, um, early case of people doing software in that way that I think, uh, will be good to say. Yep. You know, our, our good friend Dormain actually wrote a blog post about, about how to do that, the kind of internal marketing of your platform. Oh yeah. Yeah. So again, we'll try and dig that one up. It's one of those timeless pieces. Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, that's a vital part of, uh, fixing up how you do software. So, so the last one, I think the highlight, so there's a panel that I put together and I called it, uh, I've always wanted to use this, uh, this trope from the, I think it's the new Testament. I forget where it's from, but it's called manager heal thyself. And really the reason, the reason I know this phrase to just kind of go down the tunnel is if you remember in Barton Fink, uh, there are these two detectives who are running around and there's the scene where there's a doctor whose head has been cut off and the two snarky noir detectives are kind of going over it. And one of them is like, physician heal thyself, right? Cause his head is cut off. And so I've always had that phrase in my head for some reason. Anyways, the point of this panel. So Yana Werner is on this and also, um, uh, Neville from, uh, Comcast. And then we have John Osborne who's worked at a greater American insurance company and Medtronics. And I wanted to have a panel that talks about that frozen middle or managers. And not only the middle management layer, but what if you are the managers of the managers, right? Like, so we spend a lot of time talking about like the product teams and the developers and how to get them converted over. But like, if you're managing managers, what do you do? Like, how do you transform them?
32:24And how do you, how do you, what even do you do with that? And then the, the second part of it that, that I'm always interested in is, uh, there's this phrase I think we still use called servant leadership, where you're supposed to like help as, as a boss, you're supposed to more facilitate and help your employees out. And I've always wondered like, well, like, so then how do you get a promotion and get more money? Right. Like, like how, like the, the way that a person in a company makes more money and gets promoted and whatever, let's just call that success. I'm doing air quotes. The way that you further success is you have your bosses see that you are valuable and therefore you should be given more compensation. You should be given more money, more power, whatever. Right. And so like, if your job is to make other people look good, how do you get more money? And, and that's a very crass way of putting it, but how do you manage your career? If like you're a servant and, and like, I don't know what the answers are. So it'll be interesting to see how, how you go about doing that. We should leave that as a talk for perhaps, uh, your personal blog podcast. I'd love to get in there. Cause I have, I have theories and opinions about that. Yeah, I think, I think it's a, so that probably we shouldn't talk about it. Well, I think, I think it's, I think it's a fertile topic or fertile as some might say, because, uh, because ultimately like, if you look at a lot of the digital transformation talk, that's what we're, that's the main thing we're asking to happen is that like all that there's a reason we have a phrase like frozen middle and bureaucracy and middle management is because that is like, if, if you would become a manager or an executive, and I just saw a great talk from, uh, Paul, um, whose last name I can never pronounce. I'll have to put a link to about, uh, you know, on my team, uh, about how like sharknado, sorry.
34:25Yeah, exactly. How this obsession with culture is maybe kind of a distraction. And one of the things he said is that like, if you are a, an executive or a leader in an organization, you got to that point because of how the system currently exists. And so you're sort of being asked to completely upend and change how the system works, which sort of like, that's not how humans function, right? Like, like, you know, as, as, uh, the chairman of the board used to say, I think, you know, you dance with the one that you came with. Did he say that? I feel like maybe that's on the mood Indigo album somewhere. I forget. But anyways, uh, yeah, there's some weird incentives going on there that I don't think are fully sorted out, uh, you know, even in the Phoenix project or whatever. So we should sort that out. Well, anyways, so, uh, this week, September 2nd and 3rd, there's SpringOne, SpringOne going on. It's totally free to attend and, and, uh, and look up. There's a whole lot of other, uh, talks that are coming up, but even if you can't attend it live, I think, uh, you should go there. If you listen to this and you can check out the talks that we've highlighted and there's going to be a tremendous amount of other talks. Like I know that everyone who curates these talks, they make sure that it's, um, you know, talks that, uh, as we were saying that sort of like, like organizations do users of the software, but if you're not into that, the kind of like more meatware stuff that I know Rita and I enjoy, uh, all else, there's also just like straight up coding, lots of people with their terminals making their fonts really big. So you can see them typing and they're going to show you how to do all sorts of coding stuff and, uh, everything here and there in between. Uh, I'm going to be excited to tune into the James governor to keynote, see what his situation with his hair and beard is at the moment. It's always, it's always a fun surprise. See what he's talking about. I'm, I don't know. Is there going to be some progressive delivery in there? No, but I think there's going to be rainbows and butterflies. Oh, perhaps, perhaps. I don't know. I hear rumors. I don't know. I was, uh, all I did was, all I did was bring them together, bring the people together and
36:28let them do their thing. I'm not up to speed on the current red red monk, uh, memes. So, uh, he, smokestack is something he's been talking about. Oh, that's right. About that. So, um, yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Our good friend, James, he's always fun. Yeah. All right. Well, with that, this has been another Tansu talk, uh, sadly not live streamed at this time, but, uh, as you know, we, we've, uh, more or less started live streaming our episodes. If you go to twitch.tv slash VMware Tansu, we, uh, you know, except for those times when we don't, we're, we'll live stream at, uh, let's see Mondays at, uh, what time is it? Pacific 8 a.m. Pacific 8 a.m. Pacific Rita's favorite time of day. You're killing me on a Monday morning. It took me a long time to get my career to be like, you know what? I should not do calls first thing Monday morning. Cause you know, it's high value because, uh, because, because Rita's doing it now, thankfully it's 5 p.m. Amsterdam time for me, which, which, you know, is, uh, uh, equally mildly onerous time, but it's fine. We value the content. So you can, uh, you can see a streaming there and also you can go to, uh, Tansu.vmware.com slash podcast to see the show notes, including the talks that we recommended. And with that, we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye. Bye.