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Well, we have another SpringOne coming up.

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Now this year, it's just SpringOne, no platform.

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It's implied.

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The platform is implied in there.

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Like, how does that joke go?

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What's in English grammar where there's something's implied?

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Like it's, there's some phrase where it's like that, that is.

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I don't know.

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You don't have to pronounce it because it's in there or you do pronounce it.

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I before E except after C.

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Right.

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Except for all the things that break the rules.

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We're working on spelling with my son and I'm like, this is the rule except for like OU, right?

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OU makes this sound except for the times where it makes the uh sound.

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And then the time that makes the ooh sound.

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That's super fun.

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Yeah.

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You know, the thing they don't tell you about English when you're learning it is just like,

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you'll figure it out.

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Exactly.

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So many exceptions.

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Eventually you'll remember.

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I just don't, I can't imagine what it's like to learn English as a second language.

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Like it's, cause you know, I've, I've, I've gone through, I don't speak any of these either at all or much at all.

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But you know, I, in, in my career as a student, I've learned Japanese, French, Spanish, and a tiny bit of Dutch.

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And you know, they, they start off trying to, well, the Dutch one, I learned in slightly a different way, more of an immersion, not immersion, but sort of less structured.

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But the other ones, they start off in a structured way.

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They try to tell you the theory of the language and how it goes and like the grammar and the structure.

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And just like with English, I don't know what you would do.

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You would just be like, over here, we've got some rationality and grammar and theory.

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And this is, this is sort of like, you know, when you go to the Lego store and there's that display of a cool built Lego set.

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And then you go home and you've got a giant box just full of crap.

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Like, and that's, that's more or less like what the rest of English is.

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And it's just like, what you can basically do is you can take these pieces and assemble them together.

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And every now and then, actually more frequently than you would like, you come across this one Lego piece and you're like, I have no idea what this is or how this would fit into anything.

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And it makes no sense.

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And at one point, all of these Legos were a cool city and a dragon.

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And now they are just a pile of bricks in a box that when I put them together, just look like, you know, a plastic factory threw up and it solidified into something that had 90 degree angles.

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I think that's, that's sort of like, that's English for you.

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Yeah.

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That's how it goes.

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There we go.

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Well, you know, something that's not disorganized, Rita, is SpringOne.

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And the agenda in it.

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It's very well curated and put together.

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Now it is presented in English.

47
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So we got that going on.

48
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But I want, I, you know, we wanted to go over some of the sessions we're looking forward to.

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Now it's being broadcast tomorrow, September 2nd and 3rd.

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It's live.

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You can sign up for free.

52
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It's great.

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Now, also, if you haven't heard this in time to go to sign up for it and check it out, we'll have the videos online eventually.

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So you can go look at them.

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But, you know, it's more fun to see it live because you'll be able to ask questions.

56
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And do I have this right?

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Like we have, the sessions are like 25 minutes or 45 minutes.

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And then there's like a hallway Q&A hallway.

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I'm doing air quotes for like 15 minutes.

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So you can go ask people things afterwards.

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That's right.

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It seems like it'll be sophisticated to use an English word.

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It'll be fun.

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Yeah.

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And there's some fun sessions.

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And, you know, I have to say not to be too self-congratulatory, although I had nothing to do with it.

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I love the way that the schedule is laid out this year online.

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It is clean, easy to read.

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It's got good colors.

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I just found it so easy to navigate.

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And so I want to thank our web people for that.

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They did a great job.

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You know, that's true.

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I think it'll be fun to see what the post-conference thing is, too, because that's also, I think, a critical part for an online conference.

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And, you know, have you noticed that sessions, I think, maybe from last year's SpringOne are still being posted on QCon?

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It's just sort of like the conference that never ends, like certain other vendors that have like 15-week conferences that keep going on and on.

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Yeah, I certainly go back and share sessions from last year, even 2018.

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I mean, because some of them are just timeless, if you will, you know, particularly the customer-led sessions and the case studies,

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the lessons learned and all that.

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So those are great.

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We've got tons of customer-led sessions, which we will be discussing today.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well, you and I, and along with someone else, co-chaired the, what do we call it, the agile leadership track.

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And so, yeah, definitely, like, this is what I always try to tell people when I'm trying to get them interested in SpringOne,

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is we, at least in the tracks that I'm involved in, we, I know firsthand that we spend a lot of effort trying to get more or less

86
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as many users, as it were, giving presentations as possible.

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Because, of course, us on the vendor side are going to tell you how awesome things are.

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Like, that's, that's, you're just going to hear that day and night.

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But it's nice to hear how people actually put things in place, the tactics that they've done.

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And I think there'll be, there'll be plenty of that, as we've seen at SpringOne's Pass.

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So, anyhow, how about, how about we'll go over, we'll see what we have time for, but like two or three of the sessions,

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and then we can kind of laundry list the other ones.

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But how about you start?

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Tell me one that you're, you're looking forward to.

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Oh, gosh.

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Well, honestly, mostly because of the title, and I also, the presenter is somebody I've worked with before,

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is the T-Mobile blank on fire.

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I can't, it's an expletive, and there's, if you look on the website, it's got all those weird numbers and things on there.

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It's on Thursday, it's by T-Mobile, and it's talking about managing distributed systems.

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It's on Thursday, I think at 8.30 Pacific time, 8.30 a.m.

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And Brendan A. is presenting it with, with somebody else from T-Mobile, and I've worked with him.

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He's a great presenter, really gets it.

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You know, they were one of the first pivotal customers that I worked with,

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and they were the first to start using the term customers when they refer to their developers.

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Oh, that's fun.

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My experience, right, I don't know, but there were others as well, so I loved that,

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and I was always like, make sure you explain, when you say customers, you mean internal developers,

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because that is that mindset, right, particularly from the upside that we're trying to instill in folks

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to change how they think about the platforms that they build and curate and manage, right?

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So, that's on Thursday.

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Yeah, you know, I think, it's always been a mystery to me that, like, people are always following

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and market sizing and stuff, telcos, right?

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It seemed like a weird space.

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And now that I've had, you know, talk with telcos, especially who work with us in,

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whether it was at Pivotal or at VMware Tanzu or whatever, you realize, one, they have huge scale, right?

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So, all of this kind of scaling talk that people are interested in, they have it.

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And two, they are either real-time or super neo-real-time, so they've got that challenge.

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And then three, like, the other interesting thing about them is, like, they generally provide,

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they provide not all of everything they do, but they generally provide a lot of services

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that everyone uses, so they're easy to understand.

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So, it's sort of, like, makes sense.

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Like, they're not obscure, sort of strange, weird things.

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It's just like, yeah, when you make a phone call, every single thing that comes into you

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making a phone call has some software that we have that facilitates that.

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And then also on the, I don't know what they call it, but the cable side, right?

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Your Comcast of the world.

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I mean, they're all driven by software as well.

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So, it's sort of like, you know, the online banking software.

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Like, it's a great place to get examples from because, more or less, we all understand banking

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because we tend to be involved in it, unless we're, like, tinfoil hat people.

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Like, you know, you can get a good reference for, like, what the software is,

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the challenges people would have, and, you know, why it's relevant.

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As opposed to, like, you know, for as great as use cases from music streaming services

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and advertising companies are, it's a very small slice of the business world.

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Correct.

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So, it's unknown if those things are perfectly applicable to the rest of the world.

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Love a telco.

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Yeah, they're good.

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The other, actually, okay, so, I hate the term DevSecOps.

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I just think it's kind of goofy.

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Nonetheless, it's what it is.

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It's here to stay, it seems like.

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There's at least three sessions that talk about it that I think are going to be good.

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Two of them actually have it in the title, right?

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One of them is called DevSecOps with Confidence.

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It's on Wednesday at 11.30 Pacific time.

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It's talking about shipping secure code faster.

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And, actually, that's a theme that's in all three of these sessions, right?

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You know, how do you maintain consistency and all that stuff?

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And the other one is a practical DevSecOps using security instrumentation by contrast security.

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Also similar.

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And then there's another one by Garmin called Handling Secrets in Your Cloud Native Architecture.

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Oh, that's good.

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Yeah, that one's specific to Tanzu Application Service, right?

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It talks about how to integrate Tanzu Application Service with your backend security system.

156
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So, that trio was intriguing to me.

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And, again, I found myself thinking, what am I doing here?

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But here we are.

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Yeah, Garmin's worked with us for a long time.

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Like, I remember I even had occasion to go to their office.

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Where is it?

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In Kansas City?

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Is it Arkansas or Kansas?

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Something like that.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think it's in Kansas.

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I was remembering it's in one of those places, one of those American Midwest cities that has a weird name.

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Because it's like Kansas City, but it's in Missouri.

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Like, that's how Kansas City works, if I remember, right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And then there's also like...

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I think there's one Kansas City, Kansas.

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Isn't there two Kansas Cities?

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Or am I making that up?

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Yeah.

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I could be making that up.

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This is American school system geography, right?

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That's right.

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We were too busy trying to figure out grammar, how a semicolon works.

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It was one or the other.

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Couldn't do both.

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You know, I need to write.

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I need to study how you can combine together a colon and a semicolon in a sentence and just write a little essay about that.

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Because that was a big...

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You know, I had to read a lot of Victorian literature, being like an English...

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I was a major at one point, then I became a minor.

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And like, you encounter that a lot if you're paying attention and you actually read the Victorian literature.

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They love to like just throw in a colon and then a bunch of semicolons.

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And that kind of like...

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That just like...

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Speaking of the trash heap that is English, that just boggled my mind.

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Like what was going on there.

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It was like almost like proto-programming.

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If you understood the rules of what was happening, it probably made sense.

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Because I think you can use a semicolon to both conjoin together very similar complete sentences.

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Yeah.

198
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But also to demark a list of items.

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Okay.

200
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So you could almost say like, you know, Rita went to the grocery store because she was in need.

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She needed meat.

202
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You know, you would say colon, pork, colon, beef, colon.

203
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You mean semicolon.

204
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Or semicolon.

205
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Anyways, I need to look that up.

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That was a strange digression.

209
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Yeah, you know, I love me a semicolon.

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That's my favorite of the punctuation marks.

211
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I don't know why, but I love it.

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I like to use...

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I don't know.

214
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Because I think it's one of those...

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Because I think it's because it's both a colon and a comma.

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And it's like...

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It's very indecisive.

218
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Yeah.

219
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I love it.

220
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It's right there on the threshold.

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I can relate to a semicolon.

222
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If I were a punctuation mark, I'd be a semicolon.

223
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It's a regular liminal punctuation.

224
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It could be a test.

225
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What punctuation mark are you?

226
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A personality test.

227
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Anyway.

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Yeah.

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You know, and it's been fun looking through...

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You know, I think in the past two years, when you look through talks, there is a lot

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of like DevSecOps things, right?

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And I think what...

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I don't know.

234
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I'm just kind of thinking off the top of my head.

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But I think maybe the security world has kind of cottoned on to this notion of like automating

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things and kind of, as they say, shifting left.

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Getting involved in the process earlier is actually not only beneficial for my own personal

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sanity, but also results in better security and me being able to accomplish my job rather

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than sort of taking on the position of...

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I was remembering when I was talking with someone yesterday, an enterprise architect once told

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me that like rather than policing, they wanted to partner with people, right?

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And I think security people have this kind of policing mentality where they want to go and

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limit the damage that developers are doing rather than facilitating them doing things well.

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And, you know, again, I have no basis for this, but I feel like security people have been sort

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of like coming over to more of the optimistic way of looking at things.

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So that's nice.

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I think next we need to have the compliance people.

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And I think that'll be tricky because I don't think most compliance people, and I don't mean

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this as an insult, I don't think most compliance people are very technical, right?

250
00:13:40,220 --> 00:13:42,940
Like, I think they're, they don't quite...

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They want to make sure you're following the rules.

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Like, these are the rules and you need to follow them.

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And I don't really care.

254
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And again, not to be, I'm not being dismissive of their work and value because that's important

255
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because some of those rules are expensive if you break them.

256
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

257
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But, you know, the whole shift left thing, and I think about, you know, VMware is super

258
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hot on and really dedicated to this concept of intrinsic security, which is that all our

259
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products are going to have some, a certain level of security enhancing features, right?

260
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Throughout them, right?

261
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And so, like, I think of it as, you know, when you're cooking, you salt throughout the process.

262
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You know, just salt the end or the beginning, you salt it around.

263
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:23,400
Let me interrupt you.

264
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Do you put salt in scrambled eggs before you scramble them?

265
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,040
No, that I don't.

266
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Okay.

267
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But I also don't make scrambled eggs because that's an abomination as far as I'm concerned

268
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because yolk, runny yolk, come on, man.

269
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Runny yolk is, makes life worth living.

270
00:14:38,220 --> 00:14:43,140
Although I will say, I have had scrambled eggs that they cook with the cream, like the French

271
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style, that are almost custardy.

272
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That's some good stuff.

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00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,540
Yeah, well, you know, I, so, so to, to close out this, that interrupting footnote, the

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reason that I make scrambled eggs so much is I cook my kids breakfast tacos almost every

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morning and that's what, yeah, that's what you do.

276
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Yeah.

277
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Right.

278
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But I'm a runny yolk person.

279
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So that's why.

280
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Anyway, back to the thing.

281
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And yeah, intrinsic security.

282
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And we need to have a security person come and join us on this and talk to us or maybe

283
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even a couple of them.

284
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So, so if you're listening and you're into security, give us a shout.

285
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,160
So we've got a lot, we've got a lot of SpringOne talks on that topic.

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Now I, I, I, I have the, uh, so one that I'm looking forward to there's a, so I did an

287
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interview over on, um, my software to find talk podcast.

288
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We do interviews on there every now and then, not just talking about like a name infrastructure

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stuff.

290
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Uh, but I did one with, uh, Yana Werner and, uh, just talking about her experience at,

291
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uh, Tesco, uh, Tesco bank and a, um, a white paper that she wrote with Barry O'Reilly.

292
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And she's giving a talk.

293
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I forget which day it's on, but she's giving a talk.

294
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That's basically kind of an experience report of doing product product management.

295
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Uh, and, um, it's kind of driven by a lot of, uh, there's, there's a lot of interesting

296
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stories going on at the moment about because of like COVID pandemic, whatever you want to

297
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call it stuff.

298
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There's many organizations like hers that were forced to, uh, do something very quickly.

299
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:11,600
Right.

300
00:16:11,660 --> 00:16:17,020
There was as, as, uh, one of the old, uh, VPs of strategy I used to work for would say

301
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there were some exogenous circumstances, uh, which is to say exogenous being an outside

302
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:23,180
force.

303
00:16:23,180 --> 00:16:28,420
I think they call that a, uh, a headwind also is another, another BS phrase.

304
00:16:29,860 --> 00:16:34,340
But essentially, you know, uh, if you were in banking, there were a lot of government programs

305
00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:39,040
to give out small loans and give money out and someone needed to one.

306
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:44,500
I mean, you know, it's not just like a truck backs up and like in some world war two movie,

307
00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:46,640
they're throwing out a bunch of Hershey bars, right?

308
00:16:46,660 --> 00:16:49,260
Like you actually, I guess that was that one movie, right?

309
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Was it the empire of the sun?

310
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,360
Uh, but you know, anyways, it's not just like that.

311
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Like you have to like set up a program.

312
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People need to apply for it.

313
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They have to get tracked.

314
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You've got to have an approval process.

315
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,800
You've got to like prove you've done the governance account for like, there's a tremendous amount

316
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,240
of software that had to be written like lickety split.

317
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:06,820
Yep.

318
00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:14,040
And so in many examples, uh, you know, organizations, I think what's interesting is they, I don't

319
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:20,340
know, this is a theory is that they could have taken their time to sort of digitally transform

320
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to get better.

321
00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:26,700
But now they had a, uh, exogenous force that required them to actually do it quickly.

322
00:17:27,140 --> 00:17:31,100
And, and I think, you know, this is a theory that I have, and I have, I have like one of

323
00:17:31,100 --> 00:17:34,780
these executive round tables later this week where I want to discuss this topic with people,

324
00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:40,120
but I think it sort of proved to people that like there was kind of sort of in two meanings

325
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:43,620
of this phrase, no reason to not do it in the past.

326
00:17:43,940 --> 00:17:44,340
Right.

327
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:50,100
Which is to say one, they could have totally done it, but two, they didn't need to.

328
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:50,920
Right.

329
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,500
So there was really like, you know, it's fun to get better at software and it would be cool,

330
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,320
but like, there's no pressing need to do it necessarily.

331
00:17:58,440 --> 00:17:58,840
Right.

332
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,040
For a lot of organizations.

333
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:05,620
And so they kind of, I'm using this phrase, like slow roll it, but they do it at an appropriate

334
00:18:05,620 --> 00:18:06,200
speed.

335
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:06,620
Right.

336
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,000
It's sort of like, I don't know how you are, but it's not like my house is perfectly clean

337
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:11,900
every single day.

338
00:18:12,060 --> 00:18:14,920
It only gets like cleaned up when it sort of needs to.

339
00:18:15,140 --> 00:18:15,540
Right.

340
00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:20,540
And like, similarly, like you don't have to always have your portfolio in a perfect situation.

341
00:18:20,540 --> 00:18:21,740
You just do it when you need to.

342
00:18:21,820 --> 00:18:27,240
So anyways, like it'd be, it'll be interesting to see how with all of the, uh, the crazy stuff

343
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,300
happening this year, how it's sort of proven to people that they can, uh, get fit, uh, very

344
00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:32,520
quickly.

345
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So her talk is kind of adjacent to that in the sense that like she, she, uh, she, in her

346
00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:44,900
organization and, and, uh, also I think in doing kind of the work, uh, with, with this O'Reilly

347
00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:47,600
guy, kind of figuring out how organizations change.

348
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:53,280
She has a lot of reflections sort of on the next step of that, which is like, once you've

349
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:59,180
gone through this experience of kind of being rushed to being forced to change and doing

350
00:18:59,180 --> 00:19:02,560
it kind of gleefully, like that's one of the findings you, you find out with these people

351
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,000
is that people actually enjoy doing a good job.

352
00:19:06,740 --> 00:19:07,140
Yeah.

353
00:19:07,220 --> 00:19:11,640
Like it's, but what, what do you do after that to kind of make it sustainable?

354
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,800
Like, how do you learn from what's happening there?

355
00:19:13,820 --> 00:19:17,220
How do you take the good parts and, uh, kind of keep doing them?

356
00:19:17,220 --> 00:19:22,980
And I, yeah, and I went over this talk with her a couple of weeks ago, um, and she's

357
00:19:22,980 --> 00:19:29,020
got about like eight or six sort of high level items, kind of like patterns or lessons that

358
00:19:29,020 --> 00:19:29,580
she's had.

359
00:19:29,620 --> 00:19:31,100
And I'll, I'll go over one.

360
00:19:31,180 --> 00:19:35,920
I don't want to reveal too many, but I think, I think it's a, she's got a good, and this is,

361
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,420
this is an example of the kind of talk that I always try to curate, which is like, tell

362
00:19:40,420 --> 00:19:42,320
me actual things to do, right?

363
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,560
Like tactics of how to have good behavior.

364
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,060
Um, and, and I think, I think one of, as an example of that, like one of the things that

365
00:19:50,060 --> 00:19:55,120
I think is important that she goes over in a couple of different ways is that it's really

366
00:19:55,120 --> 00:20:00,860
important to pay attention to, to spend time educating the executives or the leaders, right?

367
00:20:00,860 --> 00:20:03,520
Because a lot of the time to be sympathetic to it, right?

368
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,200
Um, the executives who are in charge of things, right?

369
00:20:07,220 --> 00:20:12,300
Who approve how you spend your time and your budget, your priorities, they sort of know,

370
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:20,080
they know the effect that needs to happen, the end result, but they don't, it's not really

371
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,160
their job to understand how it happens.

372
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,900
And so if you sort of go to them and you talk about like, we need this to happen and we need

373
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:28,520
that to happen.

374
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:33,620
And like, you've got all these complaints and you haven't sort of like educated them about

375
00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:37,660
what's going to happen and what needs, you know, like what the expectations are be and

376
00:20:37,660 --> 00:20:41,400
how, you know, how things actually occur, things are going to be difficult.

377
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,480
So in that same way that you want, as we were talking about earlier, you want to like shift

378
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,260
security to the left, right?

379
00:20:46,260 --> 00:20:50,860
It's almost like you need to shift executives to the left, right?

380
00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:55,000
Like you've got to involve them early on and make sure that everyone's sort of like on

381
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,520
board with how things are functioning and they know what to expect.

382
00:20:58,780 --> 00:21:02,440
And there's another, another point that, uh, when we were going over that she raised up,

383
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,520
which is, it's easy to take this kind of idea very cynically, but I think it's more

384
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,760
indicative of, uh, there's this phrase that years ago that I heard, which is it's applicable

385
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,400
to all walks of life, which is, um, this is not for you.

386
00:21:15,860 --> 00:21:17,220
And, and this phrase applies.

387
00:21:17,220 --> 00:21:22,180
For example, if you're in a technical group and someone says, oh, I'm sorry, I've got to

388
00:21:22,180 --> 00:21:25,560
go work on the, uh, the Gantt chart to give it the weekly status meeting.

389
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,220
And the phrase Gantt chart in our world just means that like, you're doing things terribly

390
00:21:29,220 --> 00:21:32,940
wrong and you should, as they used to say a couple of years ago, reconsider your life

391
00:21:32,940 --> 00:21:33,380
choices.

392
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,660
Um, however, it's not for you, right?

393
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,440
Like if that's your reaction for some people, especially like in project management or like

394
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,000
kind of way up the stack of executives, like a Gantt chart is a tool, right?

395
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,240
Like you can look at it, you know how it works.

396
00:21:48,420 --> 00:21:52,500
It's a perfect piece of information that allows you to understand what's going on and think

397
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:55,460
about decisions and how you're kind of like going about your job.

398
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,820
So sometimes you have to do that, right?

399
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,700
Like whether it seems to make sense to the teams working on things or not, like it's, it's

400
00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:03,980
the interface that people want.

401
00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:08,240
It's like, sometimes you make scrambled eggs because that's what you put in breakfast tacos.

402
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:09,100
Yeah, exactly.

403
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,840
I'm cool with scrambled eggs and breakfast tacos.

404
00:22:12,020 --> 00:22:12,240
It's fine.

405
00:22:12,780 --> 00:22:17,400
You know, you mentioned this loan processing thing, you know, five serve, actually, this is

406
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,960
probably going to be a really good one.

407
00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:22,180
And it's on, oh, it's during, I think it's during this session that.

408
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:23,580
I'm emceeing.

409
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:28,780
So on Thursday at 135 Pacific time, five serve is doing a session basically about how they

410
00:22:28,780 --> 00:22:35,880
process like $2 billion worth of small business loans as part of that PPP, the kind of emergency

411
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,460
loan thing from COVID.

412
00:22:37,620 --> 00:22:38,520
So it's super timely.

413
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:45,300
And, and to your point, like they had to do this fast.

414
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,420
They had to do this in days.

415
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:47,320
Right.

416
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,600
So of course, five serve has been a pivotal and VMware customer for quite some time.

417
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:58,100
So they probably had that foundation to move quickly, quickly, you know, they could already

418
00:22:58,100 --> 00:22:58,440
do it.

419
00:22:58,520 --> 00:22:59,740
And I'm sure with some of your folks too.

420
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,420
So, but that was a, that's a really timely one.

421
00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:09,180
And I think, um, your point, uh, uh, amplifies your point here.

422
00:23:09,940 --> 00:23:10,340
Yeah.

423
00:23:10,420 --> 00:23:10,660
Yeah.

424
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:15,540
You know, and, and it's, it's, it's probably, I mean, this is our podcast so we can talk about

425
00:23:15,540 --> 00:23:18,960
ourselves, but I think that is a point that's like worth emphasizing.

426
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:26,320
And there was a, um, it was, it was that, uh, that Patrick Moorhead piece that he wrote

427
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:31,500
about being where like, there's a quote from, uh, our friend Ian, uh, and he, and he was

428
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:34,000
talking about, and I've, I've been seeing this as well, right?

429
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,920
Like, as you were pointing out that there are several organizations that have been working

430
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:43,240
on putting their new stack in place, working on their digital transformation or, uh, getting

431
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:48,820
better at software, you know, and, and to be baldly, uh, whatever about it, putting

432
00:23:48,820 --> 00:23:53,220
as we would call it, the Tanzu application server in place or other stuff that we have

433
00:23:53,220 --> 00:23:54,200
in the Tanzu portfolio.

434
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,860
And they've been working on that for a year or more.

435
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,900
And what that means is that like, now that they need to be able to deliver on time accurately,

436
00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:04,200
then they can, right?

437
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:09,360
So it's, it's, uh, it's like, it's like a, uh, I was going to say a nice coincidence,

438
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:15,540
but it's an intended effect of putting a good platform in place that you can respond.

439
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:16,720
Agility, right?

440
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:22,220
Agile leadership, it allows you to be agile and respond to market demands, no matter how,

441
00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:25,940
and in this case, they were severe, dramatic changes, right?

442
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:26,780
And they were quick.

443
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,880
So you didn't, you know, and it's interesting because, you know, of course I did my, my AR

444
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:33,700
duty, right?

445
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,060
As an analyst relations person, I did a bunch of inquiries with the analysts asking about

446
00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:43,900
what they're seeing, uh, among their clients, uh, with their modernization, um, initiatives

447
00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:47,160
and efforts and efforts and it's like the ones that have been going at it are doubling down,

448
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:47,560
right?

449
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,960
Cause they're seeing how they were able to respond quickly.

450
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:55,000
And the ones that, you know, we're kind of doing it piecemeal here and there, weren't

451
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:55,660
getting the results.

452
00:24:55,660 --> 00:24:57,040
So they don't understand the value.

453
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:02,440
So we actually, we're, we're doing some, uh, in a few weeks or around, around the world,

454
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,660
we're going to be publishing a study, another study we commissioned with Forrester was a

455
00:25:06,660 --> 00:25:12,640
recontact study, uh, talking about like how COVID has changed their modernization efforts

456
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:13,760
and IT budgets and stuff.

457
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,260
So we should talk about that at some point.

458
00:25:15,260 --> 00:25:19,400
Cause, cause I remember I listened to a, uh, uh, a summary of it and there's some, there's

459
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:20,660
some interesting stuff in there.

460
00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:21,660
Yeah.

461
00:25:21,660 --> 00:25:22,380
So it's good stuff.

462
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:22,700
Anyway.

463
00:25:23,380 --> 00:25:23,620
Yeah.

464
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:26,560
I've been, I've been, I need to think about this some more, but I've been building this

465
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,780
theory up in my head that there's, there's, there's not only this is not exclusive to other

466
00:25:31,780 --> 00:25:33,900
modes, but there's kind of two modes of doing business.

467
00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:39,760
There's like the, uh, lowercase D disruption, like innovation business where you're just trying

468
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,780
to invent a better light bulb or whatever.

469
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:42,280
Right.

470
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:47,160
And in that business, you come up with a new innovation and you figure out a way to have

471
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,060
it exclusive to you so that you can charge as the Mark, Michael Porter's, the world would

472
00:25:51,060 --> 00:25:55,840
say a premium, and you can make a lot of money like Google and Facebook selling ads, right?

473
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,460
Like, just like, boom, they got that.

474
00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:02,560
So that's basically, I think that's the way that most people think business functions.

475
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:07,160
They're just wily and innovative, but I think the way most businesses function is they've,

476
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:14,040
they've already established themselves as that and their job is to just not fail, right?

477
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:15,300
Is to sustain.

478
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:22,460
I'm not using, since this is a G rated podcast, I'm not using the blanket up phrase, but, but

479
00:26:22,460 --> 00:26:29,400
their job is to just like kind of go the course and make sure that they are resilient and bulletproof.

480
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:29,960
Right.

481
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,540
And they just kind of chug along and then in the best of all possible way, they just incrementally

482
00:26:34,540 --> 00:26:34,860
are better.

483
00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:35,100
Right.

484
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:40,060
So when someone like when NFC comes out and you need to do wireless payments, they're

485
00:26:40,060 --> 00:26:41,100
just like, no problem.

486
00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:41,720
Got it.

487
00:26:41,740 --> 00:26:41,920
Yeah.

488
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:42,240
Right.

489
00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:45,720
Or, or when curbside pickup is important, no problem.

490
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:46,540
They can do it anyways.

491
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:52,200
And so I think, I think it's really like that second set of people, of organizations that

492
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,540
is the majority of cases out there.

493
00:26:54,740 --> 00:26:59,800
And we in the tech world, we in the tech world, our business is pretty much based on that

494
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:00,360
first set.

495
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:07,660
Like we win by being innovative and having the exclusive, we're the exclusive provider

496
00:27:07,660 --> 00:27:08,020
of it.

497
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,240
So we can charge a premium.

498
00:27:09,940 --> 00:27:14,500
And so it's hard for us to kind of like understand, especially us thought leaders or whatever,

499
00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:16,260
to understand that other way of doing things.

500
00:27:16,260 --> 00:27:17,920
But that's the way most stuff go.

501
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,080
So anyhow, what's another talk that you're interested in seeing?

502
00:27:22,580 --> 00:27:27,560
Gosh, well, you know, there's too many to list here, but I noticed there's a bunch of event

503
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,020
driven type of sessions that I think are going to be awesome.

504
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:36,800
So if you're in the event driven architecture crowd or interested in that kind of stuff, check

505
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:37,200
it out.

506
00:27:37,620 --> 00:27:43,700
And also hot topic, the hottest of topics, spring on Kubernetes, right?

507
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,520
Like two great tastes that taste great together.

508
00:27:48,620 --> 00:27:54,860
I don't know, but you know, earlier in July, like mid July of this year, we announced the

509
00:27:54,860 --> 00:27:57,620
availability of a spring cloud data flow on Kubernetes.

510
00:27:58,220 --> 00:28:00,340
So there's definitely some hotness going on there.

511
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,700
We'll, we'll share some of that information in the show notes, but you know what BT also

512
00:28:05,700 --> 00:28:11,300
has, I think BT only has a keynote, but they also have a session that talks about their consumer

513
00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:13,040
digital commerce services.

514
00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:18,320
And, um, you know, this would be a British telecom or telco.

515
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,100
I don't know if it's telco or telcom, but whatever.

516
00:28:20,820 --> 00:28:21,000
Yeah.

517
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,240
Um, I, I don't either.

518
00:28:23,340 --> 00:28:24,540
I just, I think they go by BT.

519
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,200
I'm just noticing that they're just doing BT these days, you know, it's one of those like

520
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,660
get a hip, you know, maybe.

521
00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:31,960
Um, but I'm really excited for that one.

522
00:28:31,980 --> 00:28:35,420
So they have a keynote, there's a session, you know, it's like basically talking about,

523
00:28:35,420 --> 00:28:39,940
um, responsiveness to market dynamics and, um, customer demands.

524
00:28:39,940 --> 00:28:44,480
And, you know, uh, this is, they're talking about a revenue generating app that they, they

525
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:44,720
built.

526
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:46,400
So that's super fun.

527
00:28:46,460 --> 00:28:48,820
And, and, you know, I think that'll compliment nicely.

528
00:28:48,820 --> 00:28:53,740
Uh, our friend, James governor from red monk, who also has a keynote, by the way, at spring

529
00:28:53,740 --> 00:29:00,400
one, did a series of interviews, um, with, uh, Rajesh from, from BT that talks about their

530
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:06,020
whole, I think they're calling it, um, oh gosh, I'm completely blanking on the name.

531
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,000
Who was, um, oh, it doesn't matter.

532
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,220
Uh, he did a bunch of interviews with him.

533
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,700
Uh, and, uh, there's a series of those somewhere on our website.

534
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,620
I'll try and dig them up for the show notes as well.

535
00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:16,540
So that should be cool.

536
00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:16,840
Yeah.

537
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:17,380
Yeah.

538
00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:20,660
So I've actually talked with that, uh, BT team several times.

539
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,880
Oh, there you go with them with the, uh, the canvas team.

540
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:29,360
And, um, you know, I think it'll be interesting to see that because having talked with them,

541
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:37,200
like they actually are following the, uh, platform as a service sort of idea where a bunch of

542
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:44,620
operations people really take on that notion of DevOps and SRE and they build up a platform,

543
00:29:44,620 --> 00:29:48,900
you know, maybe we would have used to call this a cloud, but they build up a bunch of services

544
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:52,440
that developers would use to completely act in a very self-service way.

545
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,700
And the reason that I talk with them a lot is they did one of the parts that I think, um,

546
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,660
a lot of people don't think about until you logically come to it is they were doing a lot

547
00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:04,520
of internal marketing.

548
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:10,200
So I was in London and, um, Belfast, where else was I?

549
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:16,200
And so some other like, uh, uh, English town and, uh, they were just doing presentations.

550
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,960
So the teams they're about, we are the, we're the canvas team.

551
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:19,960
Here's our platform.

552
00:30:20,220 --> 00:30:21,460
You should come use it.

553
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:22,320
Here's how it works.

554
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,160
And they would just go around doing workshops for it.

555
00:30:24,180 --> 00:30:28,260
And they had an entire person on that team, not just half of a person.

556
00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:34,500
Uh, they had an entire person just dedicated to that sort of, um, evangelism or advocacy.

557
00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:34,600
Yeah.

558
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:35,360
Eternal evangelism.

559
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:35,580
Yeah.

560
00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:36,440
Yeah.

561
00:30:36,460 --> 00:30:36,640
Yeah.

562
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,700
And, and so, and they've been doing that for a couple of years now.

563
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:44,980
And so I think, I think a lot of what they would have to say is an interesting sort of,

564
00:30:44,980 --> 00:30:51,200
um, early case of people doing software in that way that I think, uh, will be good to say.

565
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:51,380
Yep.

566
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,700
You know, our, our good friend Dormain actually wrote a blog post about, about how to do that,

567
00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:58,680
the kind of internal marketing of your platform.

568
00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:58,980
Oh yeah.

569
00:30:59,380 --> 00:30:59,540
Yeah.

570
00:30:59,540 --> 00:31:01,160
So again, we'll try and dig that one up.

571
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,640
It's one of those timeless pieces.

572
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:03,920
Like, yeah, yeah.

573
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:04,480
Yeah.

574
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,540
No, that's a vital part of, uh, fixing up how you do software.

575
00:31:07,660 --> 00:31:11,520
So, so the last one, I think the highlight, so there's a panel that I put together and

576
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,640
I called it, uh, I've always wanted to use this, uh, this trope from the, I think it's

577
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:16,300
the new Testament.

578
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:19,780
I forget where it's from, but it's called manager heal thyself.

579
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,360
And really the reason, the reason I know this phrase to just kind of go down the tunnel is

580
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,960
if you remember in Barton Fink, uh, there are these two detectives who are running around

581
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:34,380
and there's the scene where there's a doctor whose head has been cut off and the two snarky

582
00:31:34,380 --> 00:31:36,800
noir detectives are kind of going over it.

583
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,700
And one of them is like, physician heal thyself, right?

584
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:42,720
Cause his head is cut off.

585
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,060
And so I've always had that phrase in my head for some reason.

586
00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:47,140
Anyways, the point of this panel.

587
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:52,920
So Yana Werner is on this and also, um, uh, Neville from, uh, Comcast.

588
00:31:53,060 --> 00:31:58,180
And then we have John Osborne who's worked at a greater American insurance company and Medtronics.

589
00:31:58,820 --> 00:32:02,980
And I wanted to have a panel that talks about that frozen middle or managers.

590
00:32:02,980 --> 00:32:09,300
And not only the middle management layer, but what if you are the managers of the managers,

591
00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:09,980
right?

592
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,740
Like, so we spend a lot of time talking about like the product teams and the developers and

593
00:32:15,740 --> 00:32:16,980
how to get them converted over.

594
00:32:16,980 --> 00:32:21,480
But like, if you're managing managers, what do you do?

595
00:32:21,620 --> 00:32:24,380
Like, how do you transform them?

596
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,280
And how do you, how do you, what even do you do with that?

597
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,280
And then the, the second part of it that, that I'm always interested in is, uh,

598
00:32:32,980 --> 00:32:37,780
there's this phrase I think we still use called servant leadership, where you're supposed to

599
00:32:37,780 --> 00:32:45,160
like help as, as a boss, you're supposed to more facilitate and help your employees out.

600
00:32:45,340 --> 00:32:51,800
And I've always wondered like, well, like, so then how do you get a promotion and get more

601
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:52,180
money?

602
00:32:53,060 --> 00:32:53,620
Right.

603
00:32:53,620 --> 00:32:59,880
Like, like how, like the, the way that a person in a company makes more money and gets promoted

604
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,300
and whatever, let's just call that success.

605
00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:04,300
I'm doing air quotes.

606
00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:09,560
The way that you further success is you have your bosses see that you are valuable and therefore

607
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,520
you should be given more compensation.

608
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,680
You should be given more money, more power, whatever.

609
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:16,200
Right.

610
00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:21,560
And so like, if your job is to make other people look good, how do you get more money?

611
00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:25,220
And, and that's a very crass way of putting it, but how do you manage your career?

612
00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:31,140
If like you're a servant and, and like, I don't know what the answers are.

613
00:33:31,140 --> 00:33:34,100
So it'll be interesting to see how, how you go about doing that.

614
00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:38,440
We should leave that as a talk for perhaps, uh, your personal blog podcast.

615
00:33:38,500 --> 00:33:39,460
I'd love to get in there.

616
00:33:39,460 --> 00:33:43,980
Cause I have, I have theories and opinions about that.

617
00:33:44,540 --> 00:33:49,500
Yeah, I think, I think it's a, so that probably we shouldn't talk about it.

618
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,060
Well, I think, I think it's, I think it's a fertile topic or fertile as some might say,

619
00:33:54,140 --> 00:33:58,600
because, uh, because ultimately like, if you look at a lot of the digital transformation

620
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:04,520
talk, that's what we're, that's the main thing we're asking to happen is that like all

621
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,120
that there's a reason we have a phrase like frozen middle and bureaucracy and middle management

622
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:15,920
is because that is like, if, if you would become a manager or an executive, and I just saw a great

623
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,440
talk from, uh, Paul, um, whose last name I can never pronounce.

624
00:34:19,580 --> 00:34:24,620
I'll have to put a link to about, uh, you know, on my team, uh, about how like sharknado, sorry.

625
00:34:25,020 --> 00:34:26,980
Yeah, exactly.

626
00:34:27,180 --> 00:34:30,420
How this obsession with culture is maybe kind of a distraction.

627
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:36,440
And one of the things he said is that like, if you are a, an executive or a leader in an

628
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,600
organization, you got to that point because of how the system currently exists.

629
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,500
And so you're sort of being asked to completely upend and change how the system works, which

630
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:50,880
sort of like, that's not how humans function, right?

631
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:56,320
Like, like, you know, as, as, uh, the chairman of the board used to say, I think, you know,

632
00:34:56,340 --> 00:34:58,280
you dance with the one that you came with.

633
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,120
Did he say that?

634
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,780
I feel like maybe that's on the mood Indigo album somewhere.

635
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:02,400
I forget.

636
00:35:02,860 --> 00:35:07,580
But anyways, uh, yeah, there's some weird incentives going on there that I don't think are fully

637
00:35:07,580 --> 00:35:11,420
sorted out, uh, you know, even in the Phoenix project or whatever.

638
00:35:11,860 --> 00:35:12,840
So we should sort that out.

639
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:19,080
Well, anyways, so, uh, this week, September 2nd and 3rd, there's SpringOne, SpringOne

640
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:19,680
going on.

641
00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:22,280
It's totally free to attend and, and, uh, and look up.

642
00:35:22,460 --> 00:35:26,920
There's a whole lot of other, uh, talks that are coming up, but even if you can't attend

643
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,200
it live, I think, uh, you should go there.

644
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,080
If you listen to this and you can check out the talks that we've highlighted and there's

645
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,860
going to be a tremendous amount of other talks.

646
00:35:33,860 --> 00:35:39,060
Like I know that everyone who curates these talks, they make sure that it's, um, you know,

647
00:35:39,380 --> 00:35:41,840
talks that, uh, as we were saying that sort of like,

648
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:47,160
like organizations do users of the software, but if you're not into that, the kind of like

649
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:52,660
more meatware stuff that I know Rita and I enjoy, uh, all else, there's also just like

650
00:35:52,660 --> 00:35:56,560
straight up coding, lots of people with their terminals making their fonts really big.

651
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,500
So you can see them typing and they're going to show you how to do all sorts of coding stuff

652
00:36:00,500 --> 00:36:02,740
and, uh, everything here and there in between.

653
00:36:03,060 --> 00:36:07,700
Uh, I'm going to be excited to tune into the James governor to keynote, see what his situation

654
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:09,640
with his hair and beard is at the moment.

655
00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:12,980
It's always, it's always a fun surprise.

656
00:36:13,060 --> 00:36:13,840
See what he's talking about.

657
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:14,380
I'm, I don't know.

658
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,340
Is there going to be some progressive delivery in there?

659
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,980
No, but I think there's going to be rainbows and butterflies.

660
00:36:19,780 --> 00:36:22,160
Oh, perhaps, perhaps.

661
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:22,740
I don't know.

662
00:36:22,820 --> 00:36:23,680
I hear rumors.

663
00:36:23,860 --> 00:36:24,200
I don't know.

664
00:36:24,260 --> 00:36:28,320
I was, uh, all I did was, all I did was bring them together, bring the people together and

665
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,340
let them do their thing.

666
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,620
I'm not up to speed on the current red red monk, uh, memes.

667
00:36:33,220 --> 00:36:35,660
So, uh, he, smokestack is something he's been talking about.

668
00:36:35,740 --> 00:36:36,360
Oh, that's right.

669
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:37,160
About that.

670
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:38,680
So, um, yeah, that's cool.

671
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:38,980
Yeah.

672
00:36:39,540 --> 00:36:41,120
Our good friend, James, he's always fun.

673
00:36:41,660 --> 00:36:42,020
Yeah.

674
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:42,480
All right.

675
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:47,160
Well, with that, this has been another Tansu talk, uh, sadly not live streamed at this time,

676
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,400
but, uh, as you know, we, we've, uh, more or less started live streaming our episodes.

677
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:59,400
If you go to twitch.tv slash VMware Tansu, we, uh, you know, except for those times when we don't,

678
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,240
we're, we'll live stream at, uh, let's see Mondays at, uh, what time is it?

679
00:37:04,260 --> 00:37:05,460
Pacific 8 a.m.

680
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:06,820
Pacific 8 a.m.

681
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:08,420
Pacific Rita's favorite time of day.

682
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,400
You're killing me on a Monday morning.

683
00:37:12,140 --> 00:37:14,900
It took me a long time to get my career to be like, you know what?

684
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,860
I should not do calls first thing Monday morning.

685
00:37:17,860 --> 00:37:25,100
Cause you know, it's high value because, uh, because, because Rita's doing it now, thankfully

686
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:25,860
it's 5 p.m.

687
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:31,100
Amsterdam time for me, which, which, you know, is, uh, uh, equally mildly onerous time, but

688
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:31,480
it's fine.

689
00:37:31,540 --> 00:37:32,780
We value the content.

690
00:37:32,780 --> 00:37:37,700
So you can, uh, you can see a streaming there and also you can go to, uh, Tansu.vmware.com

691
00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:41,520
slash podcast to see the show notes, including the talks that we recommended.

692
00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:43,740
And with that, we'll see everyone next time.

693
00:37:43,940 --> 00:37:44,540
Bye-bye.

694
00:37:44,860 --> 00:37:45,120
Bye.