A Tale of Two Digital Transformations

Episode 166 · 48:36 · SRT · archive.org · all Tanzu Talk

Hey folks, welcome back for another episode of Tanzu Talk. This week I sit down with Paul Palafas, the first voice you'll hear after mine, who works at a healthcare insurance company, as well as Jonathan Regeer, who works at a consumer electronics manufacturing company. And in this conversation, we get two different perspectives on digital transformation. We talk about what does good look like? We talk about how is a healthy software culture sustained and how is it killed? And we also talk about the difference between grassroots and executive-led transformation. So enjoy. All right, welcome back for another episode of Tanzu Talk. I think at some point we'll actually get the graphics and the name of the podcast to match the new name. All the work in progress. With me today, I have two gentlemen who are going to be kind of playing some different roles in a conversation here, but playing themselves, of course. Why don't each of you first give a quick introduction of just what your role is and kind of what you're bringing to the conversation today? Sure. I'll start. So within our organization, we kind of have a portfolio that has done some of the digital transformation that we're going to talk about today. And this was a portfolio that did not exist prior to, you know, four or five years ago when we really kind of started this stuff. So this is really, um, in the sense of, uh, our enterprise, this is, uh, a newer and more, uh, immature, although it's like five years old now, um, portfolio. So, um, within the portfolio, I started as an end of what portfolio of what? Oh, sure. Sorry. So the way we organize within my company is there's different,

um, business areas and, um, IT aligns to those business areas, um, where you have like a business group, uh, specific to some sort of functionality or, um, in most cases, uh, very domain specific and an IT group that supports that the same way. So this, our portfolio, um, doesn't exactly align in that type of manner. We were, um, challenged and, and kind of built to support, um, digital products, um, and build digital assets for, um, more or less the entire enterprise. So we don't have a kind of, um, neat fit that the rest of, uh, our IT organization has. Um, so within my portfolio, um, I started as an engineer, um, I was an engineer for a long time and, you know, kind of did some API and mobile development and then kind of since then had moved into more of a, uh, a leadership position where, um, now I'm a, uh, senior manager for our digital solutions, which is a fancy way of saying our APIs and our, uh, member facing, uh, products. Um, but I kind of help all of the products, um, become, uh, what they need to become. So I help remove blackers, talk to the, our business partners, um, you know, move these products out as they become mature and kind of do that. So I'm really, uh, supporting, uh, most of our portfolio in one sense or another. Okay. Okay. So that, yeah, that's interesting to kind of think about, you know, other folks may recognize themselves either in that sort of, we are aligned to business units or we're in kind of horizontal practices. So that'll be interesting to kind of bring that, you know, what does it mean to come at this from

that horizontal practice? Jonathan, how much? Yeah. Um, so I think we are in about year four in our cloud native journey, maybe actually year five. One of the, one of the development, so I guess I should back up a little bit. Um, I'm work for a consumer electronics manufacturer. Um, we're kind of siloed across the business units as to who does, or, you know, the one silo handles, uh, wearables and other handles, um, avionics, things like that. Um, and then I'm in the IT department. So we deliver a lot of core services to, uh, the company. And, uh, so, so we had a, we had a real big need to be able to modernize how we were delivering those services. And, um, before we got on cloud foundry, we were delivering, uh, functionality every week or every two weeks, you know, we did the bring out your dead, pile on a pile of production and hope for the best. And, um, we've all discussed, you know, the smaller the releases, the more benefit there is for, uh, for the organization and the easier to solve problems, et cetera. So we knew we had to do something different. And, um, one of our, or my, my director at the time held Netflix up kind of as the Holy grail. And his interest was, Hey, Netflix is releasing every hour and we're releasing every week. How are we going to compete? Um, we then, uh, POC cloud foundry at a hackathon and had an app running and we're able to do blue green deployments of things with, you know, less than an hour or two of experience in the platform. And we've gone from there. It's been, it's been fantastic. Um, we have been, we've, we've had a grassroots transfer transformation. And so we've, we basically sort of, we picked a couple of key apps and we just said, okay, we're going to do this. And we did it. And, and then we started to

use those apps as kind of a, Hey, look, this is what you, this is what's possible. This is what you can do. And then building pipelines around that and all that kind of thing, um, really got us to the place where we have a lot of applications that are able to deploy hourly and where we don't ever roll back. We only roll forward. So that that's been really successful for us. Uh, what has been a challenge, as I mentioned earlier with different silos in the organization, you have a lot of different checkbooks and a lot of people can, can do their own thing if they want to. And that has proved challenging for, um, for us doing a, uh, a grassroots transformation. We can get into that more later. Um, oh, in my role, uh, when we first started, I was a software engineer and I'm now, um, a system architect and I, I focus on platform. I kind of have a cool title that is weird, but it's internet architect. So apparently me and Al Gore, we build the same things and also. Yeah. And you build a series of tubes. Yes, we do. We do. Yes. Yeah. And pipelines, which are tubes. Those are tubes, all tubes, all of it. Um, you're architecting the tubes actually. Yes. Yes. Internet architect. Okay. Love it. Do you capitalize the internet? We do. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Capital I internet. Yes. Yeah. Big internet. Um, yeah, that's just one of those copy editing things that, you know, I just, I don't know why it just amuses me. Um, okay. Oh, well, thank you both for that sort of introduction to the, you know, high level view of the journey that you you've each been on. And I like the kind of different perspectives that, that you're each bringing to the table. Um, we're going to talk about digital transformation, um, and, uh, sort of demystify it a little bit and get, get real

specific about what that means, um, from, from a couple different viewpoints. So Paul, you had kind of a great, uh, sort of set up for me about just sort of what does good look like, um, as a good starting place. So why don't, why don't each of you share a little bit of, from your perspective, as you've each been on, uh, this journey for a couple of years going cloud native, uh, which is sort of part of what you might call a digital transformation journey. What have you seen that you're like, Oh, this is working. This is good right here. Um, Paul, let's start with you. Sure. Um, so our best kind of time period with, with, um, what we've been building for, for our organization really was, um, a period of time when our, or our, our organization identified that, um, to be competitive in today's landscape, um, not only did we have to be an insurance company, but we also had to be a software company. And we kind of took a period of time when, uh, we kind of took this rag tag, a group of engineers and, uh, headed over to pivotal labs at the, at the time here in Chicago. And we decided that, um, it was time to figure out how to work differently. And, um, while we were at, we're at labs, we had a couple of, of things that were to, um, come out of, of labs as products. And initially we, we thought we were building one thing, but kind of morphed into another. But, um, the best part of that and, and what, what I mean by what good looks like is, um, we were the owners of our own destiny, meaning, um, there was no kind of intake or, or anybody telling us

like what we needed to build. It was, um, some of our, some of our leadership at the time within, you know, this kind of smaller group that was going over there and it was, um, let's solve a single business problem. And what is, uh, that problem that we, we can solve with, without like a whole lot of, um, interference or, or, um, just kind of injection from other folks in the organization. And we really were able to attack the problem in a manner that, uh, proved to be really successful. Um, as opposed to, you know, years later, when you're back within the organization, you're kind of back in the four walls of, of your organization, um, trying to, to fend off with, um, you know, the, the, um, the mob outside with, with pitchforks and fire, they're trying to tell you what to build. And that's been a little bit more challenging, um, because they, they see the output of what we built in, in, in the kind of the ideation that we went through to build, um, a product and capabilities that were going to be successful for the organization. But, um, you know, without the, um, constraints of, uh, here, this is what we want you to build, this is, here's your requirements. And, uh, that was kind of never going to be successful in, in the model that we're kind of, uh, uh, built to do, but, um, just kind of, uh, keeping the wolves at bay on that kind of stuff. So while we were insulated and while we were just a very like tight and smaller group, much, much easier, as it starts to scale out, it becomes much more difficult. So, uh, yeah. One thing I want to clarify there is when you say, you know, we were the owners of our own destiny, who's the we in that?

Yep. So that was really just kind of the group that was over there. Um, there was, but I think software, like a team of software engineers, was it, you know, you, you described before like different business units. Was it when you're, it was just in a particular business unit or, or division or something? Yep. This is perfect. This is a great question. Um, so, uh, our group was a group of kind of, um, a few like visionaries within our organization that were kind of starting this digital portfolio before it was a portfolio and then a group of engineers, um, and then kind of some, uh, product managers too, who kind of did a whole different, um, uh, look at what, what, you know, the whole product, uh, lean product and product mindset kind of looks like. So we were all figuring this out together, um, on problems that we defined ourselves. So it wasn't anyone, um, imposing, Hey, we have this problem. How do we, how do we go at it? Um, it was more or less like, Hey, let's kind of ideate on what do we see as problems within the organization and, and how do we go about fixing them, um, from ourselves? So I don't think there was any, um, perceived kind of, uh, when they leave here in X amount of days or X amount of months, we expect to have this product available for the organization. I think it was more, um, an attempt to see what's possible. What is, what is writing software in a different way to look like? And, um, does it produce different outputs and outcomes is, is, is actually a better, better word to use in that case. Okay. So there was sort of a, there was a, a, a golden period of time, um, early on

when sort of the light bulbs were going off and there wasn't a lot of attention yet on what was, what this team was doing. And so there was a high degree of autonomy. There was, that's right. There's a lot of interest and, you know, we had all sorts of people rolling through lab just to kind of check out what we were doing. And, you know, we, we'd see, um, uh, you know, people from, from the business and then like, it started to come more and more. And then all of a sudden it was all sorts of people rolling through there, just kind of checking out and, Ooh, okay. I like what they're doing. This looks interesting. And, um, then there started to be all this kind of, uh, well, what if you had 10 more engineers and what if, you know, we saw this thing. So all of that, and of course you want to be successful in, in any endeavor you're taking on. And, um, you know, kind of that smallish group was always likely to balloon out a bit. Um, it's when you see, um, every business group within your organization, knocking on your door that it becomes more difficult because, um, bandwidth is finite, at least, you know, kind of in our setup, we can't scale to, um, fulfill all the business capabilities kind of requested of us in the organization. And, um, I think we've done a fairly good job in, um, uh, kind of not picking and choosing, but, um, kind of attempting to solve problems that would, um, benefit like kind of more or less a multitude of consumers. So, uh, that's been really good and we've done a good job at it for the most part. Um, I think there's, you know, I think Jonathan alluded to this earlier and, um, when people start coming with their, their, uh, checkbooks

and, and, and say, Hey, you know, I've got the most money. I want, I want this kind of thing. And, um, you know, as, as a group, we look at it and, you know, I, I see what you're, you're, you know, trying to do and that's valuable probably to you, but that doesn't solve problems for, um, a larger group. So, um, telling people no is really hard. Yeah. Okay. Sounds like there's a little bit of almost the, uh, like when you're a victim of your own success, um, to that story. Uh, Jonathan, let's, let's kind of get your perspective on, you know, what does good look like in, in the process of going cloud native and digitally transforming? What Paul said, I think I agree with a lot of that stuff. And I think from, from slightly different angles, we did a lot of the same thing. Um, I think good really looks like your engineers wanting to transform. It's difficult for people to change for whatever reason, whether it's not something that they are personally wired for, or, um, they like how things are, or they want to do things the way that their idea comes across. So it, it's a, it's a challenge to, to get, to get people to change. And, um, so for me, good is getting to a position where the develop, the development staff is like, I want this thing that you have and, and I will, I'm willing to change to get it. That to me, that's one of the things. Um, and again, with change and with culture, that's really hard. And you, it's, it's one of those things where you can't really just go to an organization of say 300 people and say, we're going this way because, you know, 10% of them are going to be like, Oh, that's awesome. I'm running. Let's go. And then, you know, they get ahead of you. And, and 80% are like, I like it in my old dirty. Right. And then you have a few that are, that are like, huh? Okay, whatever. Right. So

getting the developers to a point where they want to change and getting them at least to, um, to, to give you the chance, I think that's for me, that's, that's good. And getting there is, we found that to be really difficult. That's, I think where like us coming in at a grassroots approach and trying to do that a group at a time, um, we had some success with that. And I think we could have probably done better had we had a little more, um, actually, no, I take that back. That worked really well for us going at it a group at a time. Um, cause, cause I did have, I did have, um, executive air support from a small group of people. Um, I think where I would like to see it, uh, change for at least in my company, the fact that we're siloed means that I have limited culture. I have cultural influence in a portion of the company, but when it's time to go, okay, let's, let's take this to the next level, we're going to take this to a whole other division. That's where there has to be some level of, I think, um, some level of, of executive buy-in that you've got to, you've got to work on both directions. Okay. So just to recap that a little bit, um, and make sure I got, I got this right. I agree, right? Like, I think everyone can agree, like change is hard. And what you're talking about is almost more when folks are inspired, you know, like that's often where change happens is it's not because someone says, now you must do this right to your point where someone says hard left everyone. And, you know, 10% will do it. Um, at least willingly. Uh, but to really get people to the point that you're talking about where the developers are there, they have a willingness to work differently and to potentially build differently and think differently to get to that point takes inspiration, which is sort

of one of those things. It's really hard. Like, how do you teach inspiration? How does that? No one's linked, no one's linked in profiles. Like I've been endorsed 75 times for inspiration. Um, but that is kind of what you need. Right. So you kind of get it from like, that's coming from within you did find success, very grassroots going group to group, but then there's almost like we're going group to group within one pond. You know, I'm just imagining like lily pad to lily pad, just go with it. I don't know where this is coming from. Um, and then like, you know, uh, 20 feet away is another pond. Right. And you've got to figure out how like, we could do this lily pad to lily pad thing in the next pond, but like we, we have to get across this big bridge of land. Um, I'm, I'm just picturing like portage with like a canoe. I'm not just, just go with it. Um, and that's where you kind of like, Hey, we, we, we did okay going lily pad to lily pad in this pond. Cause we kind of had a little momentum. We didn't need so much of this like exec air cover, but to get across this big chunk of land in order to be able to do this again in another pond, that's where we're going to need some help, right? Because we're going to lose our momentum. We're, we're amphibians and, uh, we're, we can cross land, but we're not really built for it. Right. Right. Again. Yeah. The amphibian thing. That's, I don't really know what that means. Amphibious canoes. There you go. Can I add one more thing to it? Yes. Especially if you can work in the lily pads. All right. So one thing that worked really well for us is when we could show that, Hey, look at this nicely developed lily pad. That's got like some little houses on it and apartments. This one's working well. And the people there are happy when you, when you have that, it's really easy. You've got to build it high enough that the people in the other lily pad can see it. And then when they can see it and they go, Hey, that works. Let's try that. Um, so fine. I think maybe

the key there is, is you have to find the right group to start with. And if you find the right group to start with, if that group's willing to change and you can make that group really successful, then all of a sudden now, not only do you have, um, you know, you've got your platform's first win, but now you have the ability to go to other people and go, Hey, look, see this, we're asking for something of you, but look at all the stuff you're going to get. This, this is, this is going to be a win for you, even though it might hurt a little in the short term. Yeah. That's actually where I wanted to, I wanted to go and, and add on to that point, Jonathan. Um, I think like finding that right group is really key and difficult. And, um, I know, you know, if, if I'm just kind of speaking personally here, I was probably, I was very close to like my end here with what I was doing. Um, I, it was probably, um, nearing the point where I w I was ready to do something else. Um, I kind of exhausted everything at the company that I wanted to do, or it was kind of interesting within the company at the time, um, had this kind of new, uh, group come along that, you know, I, I, I got to be part of at the, you know, very, very beginning. Um, I, I probably would have missed this whole wave. So, uh, part of it is right place, right time. So I was in a position where I was kind of able to, to come over and, um, kind of start doing the, the, the new way of building software and, and, uh, thinking differently about, um, how to solve problems. And, um, it was inspiring. You're right. That's, that's a great word for it. It was inspiring. And, um, you know, we had like a very tight group of zealots, uh, of people that were, um,

wanting to do this all kind of very, uh, collaboratively. And, um, it w it was awesome. And just having that type of environment to, to wake up to and go to every day, um, that's what you need to get this started. Um, I was so excited to wake up every day and come to work. It was no joke. It's, um, you know, that, that makes the difference between people that are, that are motivated and, and, and want to do, want to do their very best and, and people that are, um, you know, common, you know, they, they, they put in their aid or put in whatever. And, you know, that, that's it, but this is, this is different. This field, you know, felt very different. Yeah. I found, I felt that way about my time at, at, at pivotal labs as well. Uh, and we, we tried to build, uh, I shouldn't say we tried, we built a lab at Garmin. It wasn't, uh, it was a small one and it wasn't, I wouldn't say it was outfitted quite as well as a pivotal lab was, but we were able to get the excitement and the culture across to the groups that would come into it. And I did get responses like, I can't go back to working in a cube again. I can't go back to the way that we built software before. So yeah, totally agree with what you said, Paul. So this kind of maybe, oh, go ahead. Yeah. I was just going to say, um, that's great. And we did the same thing too. When we came back, we, we built out our whole space. It's very closely mirrored what was at labs, but, um, you know, I think that's kind of what we're talking about here too, is digital transformation and what is good and what is bad. Um, culture is a big piece of that culture is, um, what keeps people coming to work. And, um, that's the thing that you have to guard against the closest because,

uh, if that culture starts to fall down, that's when, um, all the practices, all the kind of, um, the, the, the guardrails you put in place for that type of, uh, work in, in, in, in doing things differently, uh, will fall down very quickly. If you, if you kind of let your culture erode and as your organization, um, um, transforms and, um, scales out how you keep that culture and how you, um, kind of pass that on to the next generation, because there's going to be a whole group of people that are going to do this work with you as partners, as new engineers, as new hires, as, um, you know, people are going to come in as, as interns, as grads, and like all sorts of people are going to come in that hadn't had the, um, the luxury of, of seeing it, um, so pure. So, um, building that culture and, um, keeping that culture alive and, and just kind of fostering that and nurturing is probably the word I'm looking for here. Nurturing that culture is, it's probably the most important thing, um, to keeping a successful and happy group together for sure. And what are the kinds of things that you've seen work for nurturing a culture and keeping it alive? And what are the kinds of things that you've seen sort of rapidly erode a culture and just cause it to, to slide back or disappear, like that culture disappears. And I, I often kind of define culture a bit of like, what is the expected human response to a situation, good or bad? Um, and that can be a situation that's as simple as how we start our day to, um, how do we deal with an outage to how do we deal with a new release? Like, you know, birthday parties and, um, funerals. And like, these are all the

hallmarks of kind of our, our human culture, you know, at large, when you translate that into a software organization, like what I like to get specific a little bit of what do we mean by that? And then how do you sustain those, the things that you want to keep? And what are the kinds of things that will quickly undermine, uh, you know, the, the, uh, the hallmarks of a healthy culture that you've seen? Um, yeah. So go ahead and Jonathan. Oh, so one of the things I was going to say, I had, I had one group come in that, um, they, they had some interesting, uh, cultural limitations, I guess, maybe, maybe it would be a way of putting it. Um, there were some constraints that they didn't have the power to change because of those constraints. Uh, they had, they were being scrutinized a little more closely, I think, than they should. And one quick way that I saw their culture die was when one of their managers came in and said, how am I going to get my burndown charts off of this? When you guys are doing things differently? Hmm. Yeah. How people are measured. That's kind of a big one. Yeah. And I think one of the things I noticed from Pivotal when I was at labs, maybe I totally missed it, but it didn't seem like there was a lot of formal measurement around the groups that were either, uh, working with other teams to build things. Like if I came in as a client and there were pivots that joined me, but even, uh, I got to tour the San Francisco lab and I think, I believe that was one of the ones where they were actually building cloud foundry and there weren't numbers anywhere. What I did see was a giant board that had all of their pipelines on it and it was green. And we talked about it a little bit and they said, if any of these things turn red, the whole group stops what they're doing and they move to attack that thing as if it's a cheetah chasing down a gazelle. And that seemed like it was

basically their measurement. Are we green or are we not? And I'm sure, uh, just from some conversations that I had, I know there are anchors and some other leadership roles there. I'm sure that, that there was a pretty decent, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? The people that needed to know probably knew who, who was really performing and who wasn't. And I'm sure that they were being compensated appropriately, or I should say, I would, I would assume they're being compensated appropriately, but it, the, the playing field felt really level and there didn't look like there were a ton of measurements and I don't hate measurement, but I, I have problems with measurement for measurement's sake. Yeah. And that, that, the echoes other stories I've heard where it's like, okay, well, what's our velocity, you know, and what's the burndown? How am I going to get through my burndown? Um, Van on your metrics. Yeah. It's, it's something to measure and it's something that's very, it feels very immediate, but in the grand scheme of things, does it really actually connect to what's going to be impactful for the business? Um, you know, so, uh, Paul actually, you know, your, your colleague, uh, we did a webinar last summer and he had some great insights into, um, you know, how he was starting to, to measure things all the way through to, okay, are people, are the call center calls going down? Right. That's a, like, that's a meaningful impact because people are getting what they need from the mobile app. And so it's, you know, you could, you could have a lot of feature velocity to get there, or you could have not so much. Doesn't really matter. What matters is are people calling the call center less because they get the answers that they need. So I hear you. It's like, it's a different level of, of measurement. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's, that's,

that's actually my boss, but, uh, you know, we were, we were kind of as a group, um, we were challenged to, um, what are the metrics that matter to us? And we kind of looked at that and, um, we kind of looked at, you know, how, how quickly are, are we able to, to respond to issues and those kinds of things? How quickly are we deploying? How, how quickly are we, you know, adding new business capabilities? And those are the things that are, um, important, you know, not that you're, you're, you're pushing points in, in, in velocity and all these kinds of things. Those are fine, but you know, how is it, how is it ultimately, uh, impacting your, your members or your customers or all of these kind of things? Those are the things you want to measure, uh, measure what matters. I, I think it's a, obviously a very famous book. Um, these are kind of, um, you know, looking at objectives and, and kind of some of the key results to, to build, um, differentiating products that deliver, um, deliver value immediately. And those are the things you should care about. And, and just to get back to our question from before, what are some of those things that you've seen, you know, help sustain culture? And what are some of the things you've seen that can erode a healthy culture? Yeah. So, um, sustaining culture is difficult. I'm, I'm not going to sit here and lie that it's not, um, you have to have some, some very strong individuals that, um, care about those things and, and are important to them. Uh, we, we probably have a handful of people that are, are, are those individuals. And I'm telling you that these people are, are the people that are, are the lifeblood of, of your, your organization, of your portfolio. Um, they're the people that are,

you know, constantly organizing, um, events to, to talk about why we do different things. So we do, you know, a series of lunch and learns to not only our, our own portfolio, but we'll invite other, um, other business groups and, and different people, um, to come out and, and hear, like, why, why do we do things, um, in, in the manner that we do? And these people, these people that are very in touch with the culture that, that we've built and fostered in our area are, are the, are the people that are really, you know, driving that culture. Um, additionally, additionally, having some, some executive support is always helpful. So, um, this is, uh, you know, for, um, you know, we value, um, togetherness and, and kind of this, uh, collaboration and, um, building strong teams that are, um, trust-based. Um, so I, I trust you, you trust me. I'm going to give you feedback and you know that it's not malicious. And, you know, I'm, I kind of, uh, will, will, you know, expect the same, um, building that kind of, um, culture is important. So, uh, stressing the things and, and, uh, the activities that build that trust are, are, are what we strive for. And, and, you know, the, uh, just to back to the executive thing, like, um, having breakfast for everybody in the morning so they can come here and, you know, kind of eat together and, and kind of start their days together. And some of the, uh, you know, we, we do, uh, we do the 806 standup like everyone. So everyone's kind of together. And that's just really a key theme for us is togetherness. Um, you know, just continue on to the, to the after work activities and, and like getting together for a beer or doing this,

Matt, um, different events is, it's all about building a trusting relationship and, um, there's individuals, there's executives. Um, I think it's everybody's responsibility. Um, that's part of it to, to continue to help build the culture. And it's when these practices start to, um, you start to move away from some of these practices. Um, uh, you know, we pair program in our, in, in our space. So, um, we, we feel very strongly about that and we, we talk about the principles and the reasons why we do this and we kind of echo this. And, um, I don't know, every, every three to six months we'll kind of rehash. Um, you know, why, why do we do this? You know, people, you know, especially this is helpful for people coming in. They don't, they don't know why they're, they're doing this. They're, you know, sitting next to a person for eight hours a day that, you know, what, why do I do this? It seems like in business too, you know, what, you don't know why you have to do this education of our culture because they look at it as, um, well, your area is twice as expensive because you have, uh, two people working on the same problem and, and to like tell them and explain the culture of why we do things and like, no, that's not actually the case. Um, we, we pair program because of X, Y, and Z. And because we, um, you know, it cuts down on the defects is we have two sets of eyes looking at the same problem and building and testing. And, you know, now you're not supporting, you know, whole QA kind of division and, and all of these different things. It's, um, it's all about education. It's all about, um, uh, just kind of reaffirming to everybody why we do certain practices and the TDD and all of these things are like really important, but to, to build that culture, you, you need some, uh, very, um, invested individuals that are continue building that

culture. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. You kind of answered a question that I was thinking of, which is, you sort of described these almost like, um, cultural bastions, right. Um, and then you also need the executive ambassador, uh, of that culture. And, you know, to me, it was like, well, I, I hear you, I can see how that works, but gosh, it seems awfully risky, right? You're, you sort of, your culture then depends on a few very strong champions. Um, but then you also said something, um, that was like, it's everybody's responsibility to build a culture. And so, you know, that, that kind of, um, the answer to the question of, I'm like, you know, how do you make this everyone's job or at least like, how do you not rely on a few single points of failure? Um, if, uh, if it depends on these, these bastions? So, um, I don't know if you want to, you know, or, or Jonathan, if you want to comment on kind of the, that notion of like, how do you make it everyone's job? Um, if, while also recognizing that some strong ambassadors and bastions of a culture are pretty important too. Yeah. Um, I do think like, if you can get to the point where it's every, where everybody feels that way about it, that is a huge win. Yeah. We've noticed a lot where people will, especially pairing there's, there's, I think we had the same experience as Paul had, where there's, there's a lot of skepticism for pairing and not only from the leadership level, where it feels like you're going to be turning out half as much stuff because you're, you know, you've got two people doing one job, but even the developers themselves, some of them are, you know, there's lots of, there's still that whole mindset of, of, I come to work at eight o'clock and I throw my headphones on and when I have to get up to go to the bathroom or get my lunch, that's when my headphone comes off. That's when my

headphones come off and that's it. And, you know, uh, I don't talk to a lot of people. And so that the whole introvert extrovert thing that, that has, that has made that a challenge. So I think in some cases you almost have to find the right people. And that's something I've, I've, that's kind of cooked my noodle a lot. Thinking about Pivotal is when you look at Pivotal Labs, um, you have all these people that are pairing day in, day out. And I look at, I look at the culture where I'm at and I'm like, how did they get all those people to do that? And sometimes I think it has to be, you almost have to hire for that. And so, um, there's definitely a challenge in an organization like mine where, um, I didn't have the luxury of hiring with that, with that end goal in line. So yeah, coming back to your question, how do I make that everybody's job? I think one way to try and make it everyone's job is, is, um, from the grassroots perspective, again, if you've got to find the right group to start with, and then if you can show success with that group, it's, it's going to take time. But I think sometimes people will naturally sort of self-select out like, Hey, I see what you're doing. I see it's successful and I don't want to get in the way, but I can't do that. Mm-hmm. I mean, this has come up a couple of times talking about selecting the right group. I mean, what's the profile? Is there a profile for identifying the, the, the type of team that is probably going to have, um, good success with, Hey, we want to try doing something new and different and we want to incubate it kind of, uh, and try it out and test it and learn what it means. Yeah. Our company. How do you, like, what are you looking for? Um, that is a good question. I'm trying to put that in words. You're not, you're looking for people I think that are willing to question authority, not necessarily anarchists. Cause you know, that's, that's not, that's not fun to

deal with, but, um, but, um, that group, you know, there's always a few people you can tell, like they're yearning for something more, not necessarily different, but, but more like, Hey, we could do this better. Um, I watched something the other day. Um, oh, I was, I started watching a show called hunters on, um, on Amazon and. Oh yeah. My sister just told me about that. Yeah. I I'm liking it so far. Um, because of the cultural things that it deals with, it's probably not for everybody. But the one thing I noticed is there was a character in the show who thought really, really differently than everybody else. And he, um, he saw problems in a really, really different way. Um, like as a, as an example, there was, they were, he ended up in a police department. I won't go into why, but he, uh, um, he, there was a crime that they, they were having trouble solving and they had, they had plotted the, uh, they plotted the incidents of this crime on one map and on a different map of the same city, there was bus lines. And he looked at map a, and then five minutes later looked at map B and he went, guys, it's obvious this person rides bus line B to get to work or in, you know, in some part of his life. And that's where he, cause that's where he's committing his crimes, right? Right. Nobody had, had taken map A and map B and put them together. So you got to find, I think maybe those people that think outside the box a little bit. We've touched on sort of grassroots versus executive air cover. So final thoughts on, it sounds like, you know, there's almost like a little bit of both needed at different points, but what are kind of closing thoughts on the grassroots versus sort of executive led transformation? Um, I don't think you can do one without the other is, is all is close to impossible. Um, with the executive air cover, you're, you're kind of given space and grace to, to build that culture.

And without the culture, um, you don't have anything to build upon. So, um, the grassroots piece of it comes to me in, in finding, and you mentioned this earlier, Dorman, and it was like, how do you find those bastions? Uh, those, those people that are going to be your, your, um, the vanguards, if you will, of your culture. And, um, thank you. I appreciate that. And, um, those are, are, are very special people and you, you do, you intentionally hire for those types of people. And those types of people have a very strong, uh, emotional IQ. Um, they, they have that, um, that IQ that's very different, like a, a level that, um, is empathetic is, is, is, you know, always kind of searching and these types of people, I would much, much rather have those people than the so-called 10 X engineers. Um, those, those people are important, you know, they're, they're great. They're, they're, they're going to get things done. But, um, if you can find those people that are, um, bought into helping build the culture, help, um, uh, just kind of working with, uh, the group on, on the, on the trust and, and just kind of building this out. So that's what you need. And that's, what's going to keep it together longer. But again, like back to the other thing, like you can't do it without the executives because, uh, you, you just need that space. Uh, otherwise it, it, it crumbles quickly. Yeah, I would agree. Um, I think you hit on a point with emotional intelligence. That's a huge deal. Um, and not all engineers have it. So finding a group that has enough emotional intelligence in it to start, I think is really important. And then you kind of have to sort of work with that group to be like, okay, now go speak engineer, but do it in the emotionally intelligent way that makes them

excited. So, yeah. Yeah. And then on the executive air cover part, I think the other thing that I'd really like to, if I had it all to do over again, I would want that executive air cover from the perspective of set. I'd want that executive setting some wide guardrails around me so that like I can kind of, kind of work down the lane and, and, and work a group at a time. But when, when there's that one group who is like, no, we're absolutely not going to do that. You need that executive, almost like the guardrail, like this is not the exit that you want to take. You can't take that exit. You can keep going the way you're going, but you can't run the opposite direction. All right. Well, gentlemen, it's been a pleasure to have you on. This is a big topic. We covered lots of, uh, areas and I loved getting some of the practical examples and oddball analogies. Uh, those, those tend to prop up. Um, all right. Uh, so thank you so much. And, uh, and we look forward to talking to you again sometime. Thank you.

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