1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,460 Hey folks, welcome back for another episode of Tanzu Talk. This week I sit down with Paul 2 00:00:05,460 --> 00:00:11,100 Palafas, the first voice you'll hear after mine, who works at a healthcare insurance company, 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:17,200 as well as Jonathan Regeer, who works at a consumer electronics manufacturing company. 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,000 And in this conversation, we get two different perspectives on digital transformation. 5 00:00:22,620 --> 00:00:28,280 We talk about what does good look like? We talk about how is a healthy software culture sustained 6 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:33,380 and how is it killed? And we also talk about the difference between grassroots and executive-led 7 00:00:33,380 --> 00:00:46,280 transformation. So enjoy. All right, welcome back for another episode of Tanzu Talk. I think at some 8 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:52,460 point we'll actually get the graphics and the name of the podcast to match the new name. All the work 9 00:00:52,460 --> 00:00:59,540 in progress. With me today, I have two gentlemen who are going to be kind of playing some different 10 00:00:59,540 --> 00:01:06,300 roles in a conversation here, but playing themselves, of course. Why don't each of you first give a quick 11 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:12,820 introduction of just what your role is and kind of what you're bringing to the conversation today? 12 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:24,160 Sure. I'll start. So within our organization, we kind of have a portfolio that has done some of the 13 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,820 digital transformation that we're going to talk about today. And this was a portfolio that did not 14 00:01:29,820 --> 00:01:37,720 exist prior to, you know, four or five years ago when we really kind of started this stuff. So this is 15 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:46,200 really, um, in the sense of, uh, our enterprise, this is, uh, a newer and more, uh, immature, although 16 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:54,340 it's like five years old now, um, portfolio. So, um, within the portfolio, I started as an end of what 17 00:01:54,340 --> 00:02:00,600 portfolio of what? Oh, sure. Sorry. So the way we organize within my company is there's different, 18 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:08,380 um, business areas and, um, IT aligns to those business areas, um, where you have like a business 19 00:02:08,380 --> 00:02:16,740 group, uh, specific to some sort of functionality or, um, in most cases, uh, very domain specific 20 00:02:16,740 --> 00:02:26,860 and an IT group that supports that the same way. So this, our portfolio, um, doesn't exactly align 21 00:02:26,860 --> 00:02:35,720 in that type of manner. We were, um, challenged and, and kind of built to support, um, digital products, 22 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:43,100 um, and build digital assets for, um, more or less the entire enterprise. So we don't have a kind of, 23 00:02:43,100 --> 00:02:53,120 um, neat fit that the rest of, uh, our IT organization has. Um, so within my portfolio, um, 24 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:59,900 I started as an engineer, um, I was an engineer for a long time and, you know, kind of did some API and 25 00:02:59,900 --> 00:03:05,900 mobile development and then kind of since then had moved into more of a, uh, a leadership position 26 00:03:05,900 --> 00:03:12,820 where, um, now I'm a, uh, senior manager for our digital solutions, which is a fancy way of saying 27 00:03:12,820 --> 00:03:22,180 our APIs and our, uh, member facing, uh, products. Um, but I kind of help all of the products, um, 28 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:30,340 become, uh, what they need to become. So I help remove blackers, talk to the, our business partners, 29 00:03:30,340 --> 00:03:36,820 um, you know, move these products out as they become mature and kind of do that. So I'm really, 30 00:03:36,820 --> 00:03:44,600 uh, supporting, uh, most of our portfolio in one sense or another. Okay. Okay. So that, 31 00:03:44,740 --> 00:03:49,400 yeah, that's interesting to kind of think about, you know, other folks may recognize themselves 32 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:55,160 either in that sort of, we are aligned to business units or we're in kind of horizontal practices. 33 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,460 So that'll be interesting to kind of bring that, you know, what does it mean to come at this from 34 00:04:00,460 --> 00:04:08,940 that horizontal practice? Jonathan, how much? Yeah. Um, so I think we are in about year four in our 35 00:04:08,940 --> 00:04:13,660 cloud native journey, maybe actually year five. One of the, one of the development, so I guess I should 36 00:04:13,660 --> 00:04:19,280 back up a little bit. Um, I'm work for a consumer electronics manufacturer. Um, we're kind of siloed 37 00:04:19,280 --> 00:04:25,320 across the business units as to who does, or, you know, the one silo handles, uh, wearables and other 38 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:32,740 handles, um, avionics, things like that. Um, and then I'm in the IT department. So we deliver a lot 39 00:04:32,740 --> 00:04:40,040 of core services to, uh, the company. And, uh, so, so we had a, we had a real big need to be able to 40 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:46,360 modernize how we were delivering those services. And, um, before we got on cloud foundry, we were 41 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:53,840 delivering, uh, functionality every week or every two weeks, you know, we did the bring out your dead, 42 00:04:53,840 --> 00:05:01,700 pile on a pile of production and hope for the best. And, um, we've all discussed, you know, 43 00:05:01,700 --> 00:05:07,880 the smaller the releases, the more benefit there is for, uh, for the organization and the easier to 44 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:13,980 solve problems, et cetera. So we knew we had to do something different. And, um, one of our, 45 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:21,200 or my, my director at the time held Netflix up kind of as the Holy grail. And his interest was, 46 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,260 Hey, Netflix is releasing every hour and we're releasing every week. How are we going to compete? 47 00:05:27,140 --> 00:05:38,100 Um, we then, uh, POC cloud foundry at a hackathon and had an app running and we're able to do blue 48 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:42,560 green deployments of things with, you know, less than an hour or two of experience in the platform. 49 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:50,480 And we've gone from there. It's been, it's been fantastic. Um, we have been, we've, we've had a 50 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:55,900 grassroots transfer transformation. And so we've, we basically sort of, we picked a couple of key 51 00:05:55,900 --> 00:06:00,340 apps and we just said, okay, we're going to do this. And we did it. And, and then we started to 52 00:06:00,340 --> 00:06:04,000 use those apps as kind of a, Hey, look, this is what you, this is what's possible. This is what 53 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:10,460 you can do. And then building pipelines around that and all that kind of thing, um, really got us to 54 00:06:10,460 --> 00:06:16,160 the place where we have a lot of applications that are able to deploy hourly and where we don't ever 55 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:24,840 roll back. We only roll forward. So that that's been really successful for us. Uh, what has been a 56 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:29,620 challenge, as I mentioned earlier with different silos in the organization, you have a lot of 57 00:06:29,620 --> 00:06:36,700 different checkbooks and a lot of people can, can do their own thing if they want to. And that has 58 00:06:36,700 --> 00:06:43,000 proved challenging for, um, for us doing a, uh, a grassroots transformation. We can get into that 59 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:49,320 more later. Um, oh, in my role, uh, when we first started, I was a software engineer and I'm now, um, 60 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:57,000 a system architect and I, I focus on platform. I kind of have a cool title that is weird, but it's 61 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:04,160 internet architect. So apparently me and Al Gore, we build the same things and also. Yeah. And you 62 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:10,940 build a series of tubes. Yes, we do. We do. Yes. Yeah. And pipelines, which are tubes. Those are 63 00:07:10,940 --> 00:07:18,320 tubes, all tubes, all of it. Um, you're architecting the tubes actually. Yes. Yes. Internet architect. 64 00:07:18,580 --> 00:07:29,780 Okay. Love it. Do you capitalize the internet? We do. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Capital I internet. Yes. 65 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:36,780 Yeah. Big internet. Um, yeah, that's just one of those copy editing things that, you know, I just, 66 00:07:37,140 --> 00:07:43,580 I don't know why it just amuses me. Um, okay. Oh, well, thank you both for that sort of introduction 67 00:07:43,580 --> 00:07:49,860 to the, you know, high level view of the journey that you you've each been on. And I like the kind 68 00:07:49,860 --> 00:07:54,240 of different perspectives that, that you're each bringing to the table. Um, we're going to talk 69 00:07:54,240 --> 00:08:00,660 about digital transformation, um, and, uh, sort of demystify it a little bit and get, get real 70 00:08:00,660 --> 00:08:08,340 specific about what that means, um, from, from a couple different viewpoints. So Paul, you had kind 71 00:08:08,340 --> 00:08:15,680 of a great, uh, sort of set up for me about just sort of what does good look like, um, as 72 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,080 a good starting place. So why don't, why don't each of you share a little bit of, from your 73 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:26,620 perspective, as you've each been on, uh, this journey for a couple of years going cloud native, 74 00:08:26,620 --> 00:08:32,780 uh, which is sort of part of what you might call a digital transformation journey. What have 75 00:08:32,780 --> 00:08:38,220 you seen that you're like, Oh, this is working. This is good right here. Um, Paul, let's start 76 00:08:38,220 --> 00:08:49,260 with you. Sure. Um, so our best kind of time period with, with, um, what we've been building 77 00:08:49,260 --> 00:08:57,080 for, for our organization really was, um, a period of time when our, or our, our organization 78 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:04,420 identified that, um, to be competitive in today's landscape, um, not only did we have to be an 79 00:09:04,420 --> 00:09:11,220 insurance company, but we also had to be a software company. And we kind of took a period 80 00:09:11,220 --> 00:09:17,840 of time when, uh, we kind of took this rag tag, a group of engineers and, uh, headed over 81 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:25,160 to pivotal labs at the, at the time here in Chicago. And we decided that, um, it was time 82 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:31,800 to figure out how to work differently. And, um, while we were at, we're at labs, we had a 83 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:42,180 couple of, of things that were to, um, come out of, of labs as products. And initially we, 84 00:09:42,180 --> 00:09:47,960 we thought we were building one thing, but kind of morphed into another. But, um, the best 85 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:56,280 part of that and, and what, what I mean by what good looks like is, um, we were the owners 86 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:04,180 of our own destiny, meaning, um, there was no kind of intake or, or anybody telling us 87 00:10:04,180 --> 00:10:11,320 like what we needed to build. It was, um, some of our, some of our leadership at the time 88 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:17,160 within, you know, this kind of smaller group that was going over there and it was, um, let's 89 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:24,920 solve a single business problem. And what is, uh, that problem that we, we can solve with, 90 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:33,800 without like a whole lot of, um, interference or, or, um, just kind of injection from other 91 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:40,940 folks in the organization. And we really were able to attack the problem in a manner that, 92 00:10:40,940 --> 00:10:49,880 uh, proved to be really successful. Um, as opposed to, you know, years later, when you're back within 93 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:56,420 the organization, you're kind of back in the four walls of, of your organization, um, trying to, 94 00:10:56,420 --> 00:11:03,260 to fend off with, um, you know, the, the, um, the mob outside with, with pitchforks and fire, 95 00:11:03,260 --> 00:11:08,000 they're trying to tell you what to build. And that's been a little bit more challenging, 96 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:17,300 um, because they, they see the output of what we built in, in, in the kind of the ideation 97 00:11:17,300 --> 00:11:23,380 that we went through to build, um, a product and capabilities that were going to be successful 98 00:11:23,380 --> 00:11:31,920 for the organization. But, um, you know, without the, um, constraints of, uh, here, this is what 99 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:36,700 we want you to build, this is, here's your requirements. And, uh, that was kind of never 100 00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:44,860 going to be successful in, in the model that we're kind of, uh, uh, built to do, but, um, 101 00:11:44,860 --> 00:11:50,760 just kind of, uh, keeping the wolves at bay on that kind of stuff. So while we were insulated 102 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:57,040 and while we were just a very like tight and smaller group, much, much easier, as it starts 103 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:02,700 to scale out, it becomes much more difficult. So, uh, yeah. One thing I want to clarify there 104 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:10,420 is when you say, you know, we were the owners of our own destiny, who's the we in that? 105 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,820 Yep. So that was really just kind of the group that was over there. Um, there was, 106 00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:25,340 but I think software, like a team of software engineers, was it, you know, you, you described 107 00:12:25,340 --> 00:12:30,060 before like different business units. Was it when you're, it was just in a particular business 108 00:12:30,060 --> 00:12:36,180 unit or, or division or something? Yep. This is perfect. This is a great question. Um, 109 00:12:36,180 --> 00:12:45,160 so, uh, our group was a group of kind of, um, a few like visionaries within our organization 110 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:51,440 that were kind of starting this digital portfolio before it was a portfolio and then a group of 111 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:58,920 engineers, um, and then kind of some, uh, product managers too, who kind of did a whole 112 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:07,520 different, um, uh, look at what, what, you know, the whole product, uh, lean product and product 113 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:15,040 mindset kind of looks like. So we were all figuring this out together, um, on problems that we defined 114 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:23,700 ourselves. So it wasn't anyone, um, imposing, Hey, we have this problem. How do we, how do we go at it? 115 00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:30,100 Um, it was more or less like, Hey, let's kind of ideate on what do we see as problems within the 116 00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:35,180 organization and, and how do we go about fixing them, um, from ourselves? So I don't think there was 117 00:13:35,180 --> 00:13:44,760 any, um, perceived kind of, uh, when they leave here in X amount of days or X amount of months, 118 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:52,200 we expect to have this product available for the organization. I think it was more, um, an attempt 119 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:59,220 to see what's possible. What is, what is writing software in a different way to look like? And, 120 00:13:59,220 --> 00:14:06,360 um, does it produce different outputs and outcomes is, is, is actually a better, better word to use 121 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:16,960 in that case. Okay. So there was sort of a, there was a, a, a golden period of time, um, early on 122 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:23,640 when sort of the light bulbs were going off and there wasn't a lot of attention yet on what was, 123 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:28,380 what this team was doing. And so there was a high degree of autonomy. 124 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,880 There was, that's right. There's a lot of interest and, you know, we had all sorts of people rolling 125 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:42,260 through lab just to kind of check out what we were doing. And, you know, we, we'd see, um, uh, you 126 00:14:42,260 --> 00:14:48,160 know, people from, from the business and then like, it started to come more and more. And then all of a 127 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:53,840 sudden it was all sorts of people rolling through there, just kind of checking out and, Ooh, okay. I like 128 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:59,520 what they're doing. This looks interesting. And, um, then there started to be all this kind of, 129 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:07,280 uh, well, what if you had 10 more engineers and what if, you know, we saw this thing. So all of 130 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:13,500 that, and of course you want to be successful in, in any endeavor you're taking on. And, um, you know, 131 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:24,640 kind of that smallish group was always likely to balloon out a bit. Um, it's when you see, um, 132 00:15:25,340 --> 00:15:31,540 every business group within your organization, knocking on your door that it becomes more difficult 133 00:15:31,540 --> 00:15:41,160 because, um, bandwidth is finite, at least, you know, kind of in our setup, we can't scale to, um, 134 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:49,240 fulfill all the business capabilities kind of requested of us in the organization. And, um, I think we've done 135 00:15:49,240 --> 00:16:00,160 a fairly good job in, um, uh, kind of not picking and choosing, but, um, kind of attempting to solve 136 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:08,900 problems that would, um, benefit like kind of more or less a multitude of consumers. So, uh, that's been 137 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:15,760 really good and we've done a good job at it for the most part. Um, I think there's, you know, I think 138 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:22,960 Jonathan alluded to this earlier and, um, when people start coming with their, their, uh, checkbooks 139 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,520 and, and, and say, Hey, you know, I've got the most money. I want, I want this kind of thing. And, 140 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:35,400 um, you know, as, as a group, we look at it and, you know, I, I see what you're, you're, you know, 141 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:42,400 trying to do and that's valuable probably to you, but that doesn't solve problems for, um, a larger 142 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:49,840 group. So, um, telling people no is really hard. Yeah. Okay. Sounds like there's a little bit of 143 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:55,880 almost the, uh, like when you're a victim of your own success, um, to that story. Uh, Jonathan, 144 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:02,340 let's, let's kind of get your perspective on, you know, what does good look like in, in the process 145 00:17:02,340 --> 00:17:08,400 of going cloud native and digitally transforming? What Paul said, I think I agree with a lot of that 146 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:13,360 stuff. And I think from, from slightly different angles, we did a lot of the same thing. Um, 147 00:17:13,540 --> 00:17:22,460 I think good really looks like your engineers wanting to transform. It's difficult for people 148 00:17:22,460 --> 00:17:28,020 to change for whatever reason, whether it's not something that they are personally wired for, 149 00:17:28,020 --> 00:17:34,660 or, um, they like how things are, or they want to do things the way that their idea comes across. 150 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:42,060 So it, it's a, it's a challenge to, to get, to get people to change. And, um, so for me, 151 00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:48,340 good is getting to a position where the develop, the development staff is like, I want this thing 152 00:17:48,340 --> 00:17:54,920 that you have and, and I will, I'm willing to change to get it. That to me, that's one of the 153 00:17:54,920 --> 00:18:02,640 things. Um, and again, with change and with culture, that's really hard. And you, it's, it's one of those 154 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,720 things where you can't really just go to an organization of say 300 people and say, we're 155 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:12,400 going this way because, you know, 10% of them are going to be like, Oh, that's awesome. I'm running. 156 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:18,220 Let's go. And then, you know, they get ahead of you. And, and 80% are like, I like it in my old 157 00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:25,220 dirty. Right. And then you have a few that are, that are like, huh? Okay, whatever. Right. So 158 00:18:25,220 --> 00:18:29,240 getting the developers to a point where they want to change and getting them at least 159 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:35,820 to, um, to, to give you the chance, I think that's for me, that's, that's good. And getting 160 00:18:35,820 --> 00:18:41,560 there is, we found that to be really difficult. That's, I think where like us coming in at a 161 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:46,340 grassroots approach and trying to do that a group at a time, um, we had some success with 162 00:18:46,340 --> 00:18:55,260 that. And I think we could have probably done better had we had a little more, um, actually, 163 00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:00,860 no, I take that back. That worked really well for us going at it a group at a time. Um, cause, 164 00:19:00,980 --> 00:19:07,600 cause I did have, I did have, um, executive air support from a small group of people. Um, 165 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:15,340 I think where I would like to see it, uh, change for at least in my company, the fact that we're 166 00:19:15,340 --> 00:19:22,700 siloed means that I have limited culture. I have cultural influence in a portion of the company, 167 00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:27,160 but when it's time to go, okay, let's, let's take this to the next level, we're going to take this to 168 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:35,760 a whole other division. That's where there has to be some level of, I think, um, some level of, 169 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,820 of executive buy-in that you've got to, you've got to work on both directions. 170 00:19:39,980 --> 00:19:47,700 Okay. So just to recap that a little bit, um, and make sure I got, I got this right. I agree, 171 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:53,720 right? Like, I think everyone can agree, like change is hard. And what you're talking about is almost 172 00:19:53,720 --> 00:20:01,580 more when folks are inspired, you know, like that's often where change happens is it's not because 173 00:20:01,580 --> 00:20:06,880 someone says, now you must do this right to your point where someone says hard left everyone. And, 174 00:20:06,980 --> 00:20:14,760 you know, 10% will do it. Um, at least willingly. Uh, but to really get people to the point that 175 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:21,800 you're talking about where the developers are there, they have a willingness to work differently and to 176 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:31,180 potentially build differently and think differently to get to that point takes inspiration, which is sort 177 00:20:31,180 --> 00:20:36,320 of one of those things. It's really hard. Like, how do you teach inspiration? How does that? No one's 178 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:44,400 linked, no one's linked in profiles. Like I've been endorsed 75 times for inspiration. Um, but that is 179 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,660 kind of what you need. Right. So you kind of get it from like, that's coming from within you did find 180 00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:56,140 success, very grassroots going group to group, but then there's almost like we're going group to group 181 00:20:56,140 --> 00:21:03,100 within one pond. You know, I'm just imagining like lily pad to lily pad, just go with it. I don't know 182 00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:11,460 where this is coming from. Um, and then like, you know, uh, 20 feet away is another pond. Right. 183 00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:17,600 And you've got to figure out how like, we could do this lily pad to lily pad thing in the next pond, 184 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:25,620 but like we, we have to get across this big bridge of land. Um, I'm, I'm just picturing like portage 185 00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:33,980 with like a canoe. I'm not just, just go with it. Um, and that's where you kind of like, Hey, we, 186 00:21:33,980 --> 00:21:39,500 we, we did okay going lily pad to lily pad in this pond. Cause we kind of had a little momentum. 187 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:45,700 We didn't need so much of this like exec air cover, but to get across this big chunk of land in order 188 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:49,220 to be able to do this again in another pond, that's where we're going to need some help, 189 00:21:49,220 --> 00:21:55,200 right? Because we're going to lose our momentum. We're, we're amphibians and, uh, we're, we can 190 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,880 cross land, but we're not really built for it. Right. Right. Again. Yeah. The amphibian thing. 191 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:01,620 That's, I don't really know what that means. 192 00:22:01,620 --> 00:22:04,760 Amphibious canoes. There you go. Can I add one more thing to it? 193 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,520 Yes. Especially if you can work in the lily pads. 194 00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:13,060 All right. So one thing that worked really well for us is when we could show that, Hey, 195 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:17,420 look at this nicely developed lily pad. That's got like some little houses on it and apartments. 196 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,940 This one's working well. And the people there are happy when you, when you have that, it's really 197 00:22:22,940 --> 00:22:26,620 easy. You've got to build it high enough that the people in the other lily pad can see it. And 198 00:22:26,620 --> 00:22:33,180 then when they can see it and they go, Hey, that works. Let's try that. Um, so fine. I think maybe 199 00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:38,260 the key there is, is you have to find the right group to start with. And if you find the right 200 00:22:38,260 --> 00:22:43,440 group to start with, if that group's willing to change and you can make that group really successful, 201 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:50,340 then all of a sudden now, not only do you have, um, you know, you've got your platform's first win, 202 00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:55,940 but now you have the ability to go to other people and go, Hey, look, see this, we're asking for 203 00:22:55,940 --> 00:23:01,180 something of you, but look at all the stuff you're going to get. This, this is, this is going to be a 204 00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:03,680 win for you, even though it might hurt a little in the short term. 205 00:23:04,780 --> 00:23:09,960 Yeah. That's actually where I wanted to, I wanted to go and, and add on to that point, Jonathan. Um, 206 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:19,180 I think like finding that right group is really key and difficult. And, um, I know, you know, 207 00:23:19,180 --> 00:23:29,020 if, if I'm just kind of speaking personally here, I was probably, I was very close to like my end 208 00:23:29,020 --> 00:23:36,980 here with what I was doing. Um, I, it was probably, um, nearing the point where I w I was ready to do 209 00:23:36,980 --> 00:23:44,600 something else. Um, I kind of exhausted everything at the company that I wanted to do, or it was kind 210 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:53,920 of interesting within the company at the time, um, had this kind of new, uh, group come along that, 211 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,760 you know, I, I, I got to be part of at the, you know, very, very beginning. Um, I, 212 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:05,380 I probably would have missed this whole wave. So, uh, part of it is right place, right time. 213 00:24:05,380 --> 00:24:13,940 So I was in a position where I was kind of able to, to come over and, um, kind of start doing the, 214 00:24:13,940 --> 00:24:20,460 the, the new way of building software and, and, uh, thinking differently about, um, how to solve 215 00:24:20,460 --> 00:24:27,220 problems. And, um, it was inspiring. You're right. That's, that's a great word for it. It was inspiring. 216 00:24:27,220 --> 00:24:35,760 And, um, you know, we had like a very tight group of zealots, uh, of people that were, um, 217 00:24:35,940 --> 00:24:43,760 wanting to do this all kind of very, uh, collaboratively. And, um, it w it was awesome. 218 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:51,520 And just having that type of environment to, to wake up to and go to every day, um, that's 219 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:59,580 what you need to get this started. Um, I was so excited to wake up every day and come to work. 220 00:24:59,580 --> 00:25:06,400 It was no joke. It's, um, you know, that, that makes the difference between people that are, 221 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:12,140 that are motivated and, and, and want to do, want to do their very best and, and people that are, 222 00:25:12,140 --> 00:25:17,420 um, you know, common, you know, they, they, they put in their aid or put in whatever. And, 223 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,860 you know, that, that's it, but this is, this is different. This field, you know, felt very 224 00:25:21,860 --> 00:25:29,480 different. Yeah. I found, I felt that way about my time at, at, at pivotal labs as well. Uh, and we, 225 00:25:29,620 --> 00:25:35,380 we tried to build, uh, I shouldn't say we tried, we built a lab at Garmin. It wasn't, uh, it was a 226 00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:39,340 small one and it wasn't, I wouldn't say it was outfitted quite as well as a pivotal lab was, 227 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,960 but we were able to get the excitement and the culture across to the groups that would come into 228 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:52,620 it. And I did get responses like, I can't go back to working in a cube again. I can't go back to 229 00:25:52,620 --> 00:26:00,140 the way that we built software before. So yeah, totally agree with what you said, Paul. 230 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,200 So this kind of maybe, oh, go ahead. 231 00:26:04,340 --> 00:26:09,240 Yeah. I was just going to say, um, that's great. And we did the same thing too. When we came back, 232 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:17,740 we, we built out our whole space. It's very closely mirrored what was at labs, but, um, 233 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,820 you know, I think that's kind of what we're talking about here too, is digital transformation 234 00:26:22,820 --> 00:26:30,900 and what is good and what is bad. Um, culture is a big piece of that culture is, um, what keeps 235 00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:38,760 people coming to work. And, um, that's the thing that you have to guard against the closest because, 236 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:46,820 uh, if that culture starts to fall down, that's when, um, all the practices, all the kind of, um, 237 00:26:47,140 --> 00:26:53,640 the, the, the guardrails you put in place for that type of, uh, work in, in, in, in doing things 238 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:59,940 differently, uh, will fall down very quickly. If you, if you kind of let your culture erode and as 239 00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:07,900 your organization, um, um, transforms and, um, scales out how you keep that culture and how you, 240 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:13,880 um, kind of pass that on to the next generation, because there's going to be a whole group of 241 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:20,500 people that are going to do this work with you as partners, as new engineers, as new hires, as, 242 00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:25,640 um, you know, people are going to come in as, as interns, as grads, and like all sorts of people 243 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:36,140 are going to come in that hadn't had the, um, the luxury of, of seeing it, um, so pure. So, um, 244 00:27:36,580 --> 00:27:43,320 building that culture and, um, keeping that culture alive and, and just kind of fostering that 245 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:48,580 and nurturing is probably the word I'm looking for here. Nurturing that culture is, it's probably 246 00:27:48,580 --> 00:27:54,660 the most important thing, um, to keeping a successful and happy group together for sure. 247 00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:03,520 And what are the kinds of things that you've seen work for nurturing a culture and keeping it alive? 248 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:12,520 And what are the kinds of things that you've seen sort of rapidly erode a culture and just cause it to, 249 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:18,600 to slide back or disappear, like that culture disappears. And I, I often kind of define culture 250 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:28,440 a bit of like, what is the expected human response to a situation, good or bad? Um, and that can be a 251 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:37,060 situation that's as simple as how we start our day to, um, how do we deal with an outage to how do we deal 252 00:28:37,060 --> 00:28:43,840 with a new release? Like, you know, birthday parties and, um, funerals. And like, these are all the 253 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:50,420 hallmarks of kind of our, our human culture, you know, at large, when you translate that into a software 254 00:28:50,420 --> 00:28:56,300 organization, like what I like to get specific a little bit of what do we mean by that? And then 255 00:28:56,300 --> 00:29:00,700 how do you sustain those, the things that you want to keep? And what are the kinds of things that will 256 00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:07,240 quickly undermine, uh, you know, the, the, uh, the hallmarks of a healthy culture that you've seen? 257 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:14,880 Um, yeah. So go ahead and Jonathan. Oh, so one of the things I was going to say, I had, 258 00:29:15,340 --> 00:29:21,080 I had one group come in that, um, they, they had some interesting, uh, cultural 259 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,720 limitations, I guess, maybe, maybe it would be a way of putting it. Um, there were some constraints 260 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,320 that they didn't have the power to change because of those constraints. Uh, they had, 261 00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:35,920 they were being scrutinized a little more closely, I think, than they should. And one quick way that I 262 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:43,520 saw their culture die was when one of their managers came in and said, how am I going to get my burndown 263 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,460 charts off of this? When you guys are doing things differently? 264 00:29:50,380 --> 00:29:53,860 Hmm. Yeah. How people are measured. That's kind of a big one. 265 00:29:54,320 --> 00:30:02,480 Yeah. And I think one of the things I noticed from Pivotal when I was at labs, maybe I totally missed it, 266 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:08,900 but it didn't seem like there was a lot of formal measurement around the groups that were either, 267 00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:14,440 uh, working with other teams to build things. Like if I came in as a client and there were pivots that 268 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:20,420 joined me, but even, uh, I got to tour the San Francisco lab and I think, I believe that was one of the 269 00:30:20,420 --> 00:30:26,680 ones where they were actually building cloud foundry and there weren't numbers anywhere. What I did see 270 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:34,200 was a giant board that had all of their pipelines on it and it was green. And we talked about it a little 271 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:41,480 bit and they said, if any of these things turn red, the whole group stops what they're doing and they 272 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:51,260 move to attack that thing as if it's a cheetah chasing down a gazelle. And that seemed like it was 273 00:30:51,260 --> 00:30:59,360 basically their measurement. Are we green or are we not? And I'm sure, uh, just from some conversations 274 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:05,160 that I had, I know there are anchors and some other leadership roles there. I'm sure that, that there 275 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:13,740 was a pretty decent, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? The people that needed to know probably knew 276 00:31:13,740 --> 00:31:18,160 who, who was really performing and who wasn't. And I'm sure that they were being compensated 277 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,540 appropriately, or I should say, I would, I would assume they're being compensated appropriately, 278 00:31:22,540 --> 00:31:28,500 but it, the, the playing field felt really level and there didn't look like there were a ton of 279 00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:34,500 measurements and I don't hate measurement, but I, I have problems with measurement for measurement's sake. 280 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:41,700 Yeah. And that, that, the echoes other stories I've heard where it's like, okay, well, what's our 281 00:31:41,700 --> 00:31:47,280 velocity, you know, and what's the burndown? How am I going to get through my burndown? Um, 282 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:48,580 Van on your metrics. 283 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,300 Yeah. It's, it's something to measure and it's something that's very, it feels very immediate, 284 00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:59,540 but in the grand scheme of things, does it really actually connect to what's going to 285 00:31:59,540 --> 00:32:07,580 be impactful for the business? Um, you know, so, uh, Paul actually, you know, your, your colleague, 286 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:17,620 uh, we did a webinar last summer and he had some great insights into, um, you know, how he was 287 00:32:17,620 --> 00:32:25,140 starting to, to measure things all the way through to, okay, are people, are the call center calls going 288 00:32:25,140 --> 00:32:30,800 down? Right. That's a, like, that's a meaningful impact because people are getting what they need 289 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:38,260 from the mobile app. And so it's, you know, you could, you could have a lot of feature velocity 290 00:32:38,260 --> 00:32:43,880 to get there, or you could have not so much. Doesn't really matter. What matters is are people 291 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:49,740 calling the call center less because they get the answers that they need. So I hear you. It's like, 292 00:32:49,740 --> 00:32:56,280 it's a different level of, of measurement. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's, that's, 293 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:03,960 that's actually my boss, but, uh, you know, we were, we were kind of as a group, um, we were challenged 294 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:11,200 to, um, what are the metrics that matter to us? And we kind of looked at that and, um, we kind of 295 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:17,020 looked at, you know, how, how quickly are, are we able to, to respond to issues and those kinds of 296 00:33:17,020 --> 00:33:21,460 things? How quickly are we deploying? How, how quickly are we, you know, adding new business 297 00:33:21,460 --> 00:33:28,420 capabilities? And those are the things that are, um, important, you know, not that you're, you're, 298 00:33:28,420 --> 00:33:36,280 you're pushing points in, in, in velocity and all these kinds of things. Those are fine, but you know, 299 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:43,020 how is it, how is it ultimately, uh, impacting your, your members or your customers or all of these 300 00:33:43,020 --> 00:33:47,960 kind of things? Those are the things you want to measure, uh, measure what matters. I, I think it's 301 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:55,000 a, obviously a very famous book. Um, these are kind of, um, you know, looking at objectives and, 302 00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:02,900 and kind of some of the key results to, to build, um, differentiating products that deliver, um, 303 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,860 deliver value immediately. And those are the things you should care about. 304 00:34:08,980 --> 00:34:13,800 And, and just to get back to our question from before, what are some of those things that you've 305 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,240 seen, you know, help sustain culture? And what are some of the things you've seen that can erode a 306 00:34:19,240 --> 00:34:19,880 healthy culture? 307 00:34:21,260 --> 00:34:28,680 Yeah. So, um, sustaining culture is difficult. I'm, I'm not going to sit here and lie that it's not, 308 00:34:29,020 --> 00:34:36,600 um, you have to have some, some very strong individuals that, um, care about those things 309 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:44,080 and, and are important to them. Uh, we, we probably have a handful of people that are, 310 00:34:44,140 --> 00:34:50,480 are, are those individuals. And I'm telling you that these people are, are the people that are, 311 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:57,060 are the lifeblood of, of your, your organization, of your portfolio. Um, they're the people that are, 312 00:34:57,060 --> 00:35:04,360 you know, constantly organizing, um, events to, to talk about why we do different things. 313 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:10,860 So we do, you know, a series of lunch and learns to not only our, our own portfolio, but we'll invite 314 00:35:10,860 --> 00:35:16,940 other, um, other business groups and, and different people, um, to come out and, and hear, like, 315 00:35:16,940 --> 00:35:23,440 why, why do we do things, um, in, in the manner that we do? And these people, these people that are 316 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:30,120 very in touch with the culture that, that we've built and fostered in our area are, are the, are the 317 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:37,860 people that are really, you know, driving that culture. Um, additionally, additionally, having 318 00:35:37,860 --> 00:35:47,820 some, some executive support is always helpful. So, um, this is, uh, you know, for, um, you know, 319 00:35:47,820 --> 00:35:56,680 we value, um, togetherness and, and kind of this, uh, collaboration and, um, building strong teams that 320 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:04,980 are, um, trust-based. Um, so I, I trust you, you trust me. I'm going to give you feedback and you 321 00:36:04,980 --> 00:36:10,900 know that it's not malicious. And, you know, I'm, I kind of, uh, will, will, you know, expect the same, 322 00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:19,880 um, building that kind of, um, culture is important. So, uh, stressing the things and, and, uh, the 323 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:27,720 activities that build that trust are, are, are what we strive for. And, and, you know, the, uh, just 324 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:33,380 to back to the executive thing, like, um, having breakfast for everybody in the morning so they 325 00:36:33,380 --> 00:36:39,020 can come here and, you know, kind of eat together and, and kind of start their days together. And some of 326 00:36:39,020 --> 00:36:44,800 the, uh, you know, we, we do, uh, we do the 806 standup like everyone. So everyone's kind of 327 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:52,820 together. And that's just really a key theme for us is togetherness. Um, you know, just continue on 328 00:36:52,820 --> 00:36:58,380 to the, to the after work activities and, and like getting together for a beer or doing this, 329 00:36:58,380 --> 00:37:06,320 Matt, um, different events is, it's all about building a trusting relationship and, um, there's 330 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:13,480 individuals, there's executives. Um, I think it's everybody's responsibility. Um, that's part of it 331 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:23,200 to, to continue to help build the culture. And it's when these practices start to, um, you start to move 332 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:32,320 away from some of these practices. Um, uh, you know, we pair program in our, in, in our space. So, um, 333 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:38,320 we, we feel very strongly about that and we, we talk about the principles and the reasons why we do 334 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:44,580 this and we kind of echo this. And, um, I don't know, every, every three to six months we'll kind 335 00:37:44,580 --> 00:37:49,740 of rehash. Um, you know, why, why do we do this? You know, people, you know, especially this is 336 00:37:49,740 --> 00:37:53,760 helpful for people coming in. They don't, they don't know why they're, they're doing this. They're, 337 00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:58,240 you know, sitting next to a person for eight hours a day that, you know, what, why do I do this? 338 00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:04,240 It seems like in business too, you know, what, you don't know why you have to do this education 339 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:11,440 of our culture because they look at it as, um, well, your area is twice as expensive because you 340 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:18,960 have, uh, two people working on the same problem and, and to like tell them and explain the culture 341 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:26,060 of why we do things and like, no, that's not actually the case. Um, we, we pair program because 342 00:38:26,060 --> 00:38:32,460 of X, Y, and Z. And because we, um, you know, it cuts down on the defects is we have two sets of eyes 343 00:38:32,460 --> 00:38:37,180 looking at the same problem and building and testing. And, you know, now you're not supporting, 344 00:38:37,180 --> 00:38:43,160 you know, whole QA kind of division and, and all of these different things. It's, um, 345 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:49,320 it's all about education. It's all about, um, uh, just kind of reaffirming to everybody why we do 346 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:54,860 certain practices and the TDD and all of these things are like really important, but to, to build 347 00:38:54,860 --> 00:39:03,560 that culture, you, you need some, uh, very, um, invested individuals that are continue building that 348 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,700 culture. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. You kind of answered a question that I was thinking of, 349 00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:15,660 which is, you sort of described these almost like, um, cultural bastions, right. Um, and then you also 350 00:39:15,660 --> 00:39:24,580 need the executive ambassador, uh, of that culture. And, you know, to me, it was like, well, I, I hear 351 00:39:24,580 --> 00:39:30,320 you, I can see how that works, but gosh, it seems awfully risky, right? You're, you sort of, your culture 352 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:39,200 then depends on a few very strong champions. Um, but then you also said something, um, that was like, 353 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:46,940 it's everybody's responsibility to build a culture. And so, you know, that, that kind of, um, the answer 354 00:39:46,940 --> 00:39:52,160 to the question of, I'm like, you know, how do you make this everyone's job or at least like, how do you 355 00:39:52,160 --> 00:40:00,560 not rely on a few single points of failure? Um, if, uh, if it depends on these, these bastions? So, 356 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:06,520 um, I don't know if you want to, you know, or, or Jonathan, if you want to comment on kind of the, 357 00:40:06,660 --> 00:40:15,440 that notion of like, how do you make it everyone's job? Um, if, while also recognizing that some strong 358 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,320 ambassadors and bastions of a culture are pretty important too. 359 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:27,040 Yeah. Um, I do think like, if you can get to the point where it's every, where everybody feels 360 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:33,660 that way about it, that is a huge win. Yeah. We've noticed a lot where people will, especially 361 00:40:33,660 --> 00:40:38,740 pairing there's, there's, I think we had the same experience as Paul had, where there's, there's a 362 00:40:38,740 --> 00:40:43,640 lot of skepticism for pairing and not only from the leadership level, where it feels like you're 363 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:49,040 going to be turning out half as much stuff because you're, you know, you've got two people doing one 364 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:54,980 job, but even the developers themselves, some of them are, you know, there's lots of, there's still 365 00:40:54,980 --> 00:41:00,720 that whole mindset of, of, I come to work at eight o'clock and I throw my headphones on and when I have 366 00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:04,600 to get up to go to the bathroom or get my lunch, that's when my headphone comes off. That's when my 367 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:10,680 headphones come off and that's it. And, you know, uh, I don't talk to a lot of people. And so that the 368 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:16,520 whole introvert extrovert thing that, that has, that has made that a challenge. So I think in some 369 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:22,400 cases you almost have to find the right people. And that's something I've, I've, that's kind of 370 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:28,680 cooked my noodle a lot. Thinking about Pivotal is when you look at Pivotal Labs, um, you have all 371 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:34,760 these people that are pairing day in, day out. And I look at, I look at the culture where I'm at and I'm 372 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:40,200 like, how did they get all those people to do that? And sometimes I think it has to be, 373 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:46,800 you almost have to hire for that. And so, um, there's definitely a challenge in an organization 374 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:53,100 like mine where, um, I didn't have the luxury of hiring with that, with that end goal in line. 375 00:41:53,220 --> 00:41:58,020 So yeah, coming back to your question, how do I make that everybody's job? I think one way to try 376 00:41:58,020 --> 00:42:05,080 and make it everyone's job is, is, um, from the grassroots perspective, again, if you've got to 377 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:11,120 find the right group to start with, and then if you can show success with that group, it's, it's going 378 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:16,480 to take time. But I think sometimes people will naturally sort of self-select out like, Hey, I see 379 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,540 what you're doing. I see it's successful and I don't want to get in the way, but I can't do that. 380 00:42:21,580 --> 00:42:27,720 Mm-hmm. I mean, this has come up a couple of times talking about selecting the right group. I mean, 381 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:38,400 what's the profile? Is there a profile for identifying the, the, the type of team that is 382 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:45,820 probably going to have, um, good success with, Hey, we want to try doing something new and different 383 00:42:45,820 --> 00:42:50,440 and we want to incubate it kind of, uh, and try it out and test it and learn what it means. 384 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:57,320 Yeah. Our company. How do you, like, what are you looking for? Um, that is a good question. I'm 385 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,660 trying to put that in words. You're not, you're looking for people I think that are willing to 386 00:43:01,660 --> 00:43:08,040 question authority, not necessarily anarchists. Cause you know, that's, that's not, that's not fun to 387 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:15,500 deal with, but, um, but, um, that group, you know, there's always a few people you can tell, 388 00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:20,340 like they're yearning for something more, not necessarily different, but, but more like, 389 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:29,180 Hey, we could do this better. Um, I watched something the other day. Um, oh, I was, I started 390 00:43:29,180 --> 00:43:35,960 watching a show called hunters on, um, on Amazon and. Oh yeah. My sister just told me about that. 391 00:43:36,180 --> 00:43:41,120 Yeah. I I'm liking it so far. Um, because of the cultural things that it deals with, 392 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:47,680 it's probably not for everybody. But the one thing I noticed is there was a character in the show who 393 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:53,700 thought really, really differently than everybody else. And he, um, he saw problems in a really, 394 00:43:53,820 --> 00:44:00,200 really different way. Um, like as a, as an example, there was, they were, he ended up in a police 395 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:08,600 department. I won't go into why, but he, uh, um, he, there was a crime that they, they were having 396 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:14,860 trouble solving and they had, they had plotted the, uh, they plotted the incidents of this crime on one 397 00:44:14,860 --> 00:44:21,520 map and on a different map of the same city, there was bus lines. And he looked at map a, and then 398 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:28,000 five minutes later looked at map B and he went, guys, it's obvious this person rides bus line B to 399 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:33,280 get to work or in, you know, in some part of his life. And that's where he, cause that's where he's 400 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,220 committing his crimes, right? Right. Nobody had, had taken map A and map B and put them together. So 401 00:44:37,220 --> 00:44:40,760 you got to find, I think maybe those people that think outside the box a little bit. 402 00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:48,440 We've touched on sort of grassroots versus executive air cover. So final thoughts on, it sounds like, 403 00:44:48,860 --> 00:44:53,820 you know, there's almost like a little bit of both needed at different points, but what are 404 00:44:53,820 --> 00:44:59,820 kind of closing thoughts on the grassroots versus sort of executive led transformation? 405 00:45:01,820 --> 00:45:07,540 Um, I don't think you can do one without the other is, is all is close to impossible. Um, 406 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:17,700 with the executive air cover, you're, you're kind of given space and grace to, to build that culture. 407 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:27,560 And without the culture, um, you don't have anything to build upon. So, um, the grassroots piece of it 408 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:33,840 comes to me in, in finding, and you mentioned this earlier, Dorman, and it was like, how do you find 409 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:40,580 those bastions? Uh, those, those people that are going to be your, your, um, the vanguards, 410 00:45:40,740 --> 00:45:49,740 if you will, of your culture. And, um, thank you. I appreciate that. And, um, those are, are, 411 00:45:49,740 --> 00:45:55,020 are very special people and you, you do, you intentionally hire for those types of people. 412 00:45:55,020 --> 00:46:03,620 And those types of people have a very strong, uh, emotional IQ. Um, they, they have that, um, 413 00:46:03,740 --> 00:46:12,000 that IQ that's very different, like a, a level that, um, is empathetic is, is, is, you know, 414 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:18,660 always kind of searching and these types of people, I would much, much rather have those people than 415 00:46:18,660 --> 00:46:24,340 the so-called 10 X engineers. Um, those, those people are important, you know, they're, they're great. 416 00:46:24,340 --> 00:46:29,960 They're, they're, they're going to get things done. But, um, if you can find those people that are, 417 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:40,140 um, bought into helping build the culture, help, um, uh, just kind of working with, uh, the group on, 418 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:45,360 on the, on the trust and, and just kind of building this out. So that's what you need. And that's, 419 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,460 what's going to keep it together longer. But again, like back to the other thing, like you can't do it 420 00:46:49,460 --> 00:46:57,380 without the executives because, uh, you, you just need that space. Uh, otherwise it, it, it crumbles 421 00:46:57,380 --> 00:47:03,840 quickly. Yeah, I would agree. Um, I think you hit on a point with emotional intelligence. That's a huge 422 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:09,360 deal. Um, and not all engineers have it. So finding a group that has enough emotional intelligence in it 423 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:16,940 to start, I think is really important. And then you kind of have to sort of work with that group to 424 00:47:16,940 --> 00:47:20,840 be like, okay, now go speak engineer, but do it in the emotionally intelligent way that makes them 425 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:27,640 excited. So, yeah. Yeah. And then on the executive air cover part, I think the other thing that I'd 426 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,680 really like to, if I had it all to do over again, I would want that executive air cover from the 427 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:41,580 perspective of set. I'd want that executive setting some wide guardrails around me so that like I can 428 00:47:41,580 --> 00:47:47,080 kind of, kind of work down the lane and, and, and work a group at a time. But when, when there's that 429 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:53,200 one group who is like, no, we're absolutely not going to do that. You need that executive, almost like 430 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:58,940 the guardrail, like this is not the exit that you want to take. You can't take that exit. You can keep 431 00:47:58,940 --> 00:48:04,680 going the way you're going, but you can't run the opposite direction. All right. Well, gentlemen, 432 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:11,720 it's been a pleasure to have you on. This is a big topic. We covered lots of, uh, areas and I loved 433 00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:19,280 getting some of the practical examples and oddball analogies. Uh, those, those tend to prop up. Um, 434 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:26,140 all right. Uh, so thank you so much. And, uh, and we look forward to talking to you again sometime. 435 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:26,840 Thank you.