Pivotal Cloud Foundry 1.12, with Jared Ruckle

Episode 67 · 35:06 · SRT · archive.org · all Tanzu Talk

Well, it's sweater weather down here in Austin. You know, I always like to have a good amount of weather talk. But here's my question for y'all who live up there in Rainland. Now, tactically, is it wise to wear a wool sweater? Are you best done by wearing like your rain stuff all the time? Because, you know, I do like eating lamb and I don't really mind a wet wool sweater smell, especially if I'm kind of hungry. But I don't know if that's what you want to have hanging around you all the time. Like what's the, do you wear sweaters up there? We do. I typically do put a jacket on top just to be safe up here. You call them slickers? Something slick. No, I'm not 12. I don't call them a slicker. That's right. You're not 12 or 87, so you don't call them slickers. Right. That's fair. How about yourself, Jared? Big sweater fan? It's really about the altitude. When you're at sea level, for me, sweaters are a no-go because you get all the rain. But when you're up in the mountains and it's snowy and a better chance of being clear, then you're talking sweater mania. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like a good layer to have along with a base layer. I don't really, being a lifelong resident of Austin, I don't know this whole layering theory, but it sounds like something I could get into. I like it. It's got a system. Well, so we thought we'd have you on, Jared, once again. We have a new version of Pivotal Cloud Foundry. I guess it's a 1.12. Previous version must have been 1.11, if I remember how arithmetic works. You ever have someone remind you that when you say the word math, you often mean arithmetic? Those are elitists. Yeah. We don't really engage with them. Yeah. Our friends across the pond say maths. Oh, maths. Yes. They like to cover the whole panoply of the numbers-oriented sciences. They don't want to limit themselves, which is, that's fine. That's good stuff. Anyways, yeah, so we thought we'd have you on to go over what's in the new release.

As always, there's a bevy of excitement there. But why don't you give yourself a brief, you know, do a brief introduction of yourself, and then we'll get on to a few little news items and then jump into the 1.12 release. Yeah, I'm Jared Ruckel. I work on the product team here at Pivotal, based out of, well, sunny Seattle today. That's right. Sweater country. So, I think the biggest, other than me writing a register column, the biggest news that's happened, I think, I don't know, across the last week, is that our friends over at Docker, just like everyone else except maybe a notable company up in sweater country there, are building Kubernetes into their overall platform. And I think it's similar to us, right? Like, it's not GA at the moment. In the previous episode, if you recall, we talked with, about, but we talked about Pivotal Container Services with, I was noticing Cornelia doesn't say Cornelia, and now I've forgotten how she subtly, how does she subtly say her name different? She says a Cornelia. Cornelia. Which I have tried to focus on being good, because people don't like their name pronounced incorrectly. Yes. Someone with a funny name like me, I'm always trying to be true to how people want their name pronounced, but so Cornelia went over Pivotal Container Services. And I think, I think if you were to really like smudge down the, the burger diagram, it kind of looks similar. But it is, I think, I think it's, I think it's, I don't want to use the coffin metaphor. It's almost the, the last straw on the, the, the, the kid's straw Eiffel Tower that's been constructed that Kubernetes seems to be taking over, if you will, in, in this space. So that was, that was a fun little news item there. Yeah. And then hot off the press from like an hour ago, Microsoft announced the Microsoft or the Azure Container Service with a K, which is now managed Kubernetes as well.

So it's, everybody gets a Kubernetes. Yeah. Everyone's into it. So, I mean, as I forget if we said this last episode, but I'm, I'm definitely eager to see over the next year or so what, what people, what people make of that, what, what, what folks often enterprise land end up doing with it? Cause it certainly comes up all the time. So that, that'll be encouraging. And, and then as always, well, maybe not as always, but as you would expect on my other non-pivotal podcast, Software Defined Talk. I think last week we, we talked about this at length as well. If you want to dive into that some more. And then, and then there's been a, a bevy of IPOs going on. You know, let me just parenthetically say, if you follow one of my, one of my colleagues over at four or five, one research Brennan, you, you know, every quarter, it seems like the IPO market has either melted down or is reinvigorating. So it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a whip flash thing going on according to his coverage. But at the moment there's some exciting stuff going on there. There is. Yeah. You've got what MongoDB had a great IPO. They went, they ended the day above their target price. And I think for, there's only a handful of this kind of pure play open source companies themselves and Red Hat and Cloudera and Hortonworks. And so, I mean, it's a good benchmark for how does the market see some of these open source technologies, whether you love MongoDB, it's a database or not. I think we still root for kind of things in this kind of cloudy tech software and do a good job. So they seem to be well-received. SendGrid, I guess, announced they're doing an IPO. They send, it was like a trillion email messages, either it's a month or some ridiculous amount. So kind of plumbing in the cloud, but a lot of people depend on that. And then Stitch Fix, which really does clothing kind of, I don't know, it's not Netflix for clothing, but kind of an idea of you give your style and they send you clothes, but they're very tech driven. And so they have some great people who speak at conferences and the like. So always encouraging to see companies like that powered by tech delivering stuff in new ways, go public. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think from a practical perspective, I mean, for those followers of tech who live that exciting lifestyle, like it's always fun to see this stuff. But I mean, I was trying to once again, finish up some enterprise architecture writing, which you know, good luck to me with that windmill. But, you know, in looking at new technologies to adopt, to use, it's always nice to have a certain amount of stability behind the companies that you're doing. And definitely being public is a good benchmark, or I shouldn't say benchmark milestone. I get my metaphors confused for things like that. And then conversely, I think this is a bit of a stretch, but still like nowadays when companies, pretty much all the customers and companies and organizations we work with are looking to figure out how to use software as like a core business process, it's good to get some baselining of how expensive that is at first, how much money needs to be spent to innovate a technology and what your revenues versus profits and things like that are. And so if you're interested in that level of detail, it's kind of instructive to look at comparables of software companies that are more or less like single product or have a small amount of products. And you can get a sense of, you know, it's a little weird because they've got sales and marketing and what do they call it, SG&A or something. I get all my acronyms mixed up. But so, but if you pull that out, you kind of get a rough sense of the investment and the amount of time it takes to build up viable products, which I think is valuable to look at. Plus, you know, IPOs, who doesn't love that? So it's very exciting. So then before we get to the PCF 1.12, I just wanted to high post a little bit of stuff that I've done recently that I think is relevant. So about every year, for various reasons, not to mention that they're in Austin, the great folks over at SolarWinds, they have something called a thwack camp because they're funny. And I was on a video panel with Nathan Harvey from Chef and another person whose name I should

remember, but I don't because I'm bad at that. But they were both and we were on a panel about what monitoring in DevOps, which is something that SolarWinds cares about, of course. And yeah, it was a good opportunity to just talk about DevOps and use of it in organizations broadly. So there's that panel. And man, they use like super high definition stuff. So it's a good thing I had a haircut that day. Like I had to look at there's, if you look at the cover art, just as a little how these things get made, the photographer asked us to look like we were talking. So I was just gesticulating mildly and everyone was looking at me as if I was saying something good. But I think I was just telling them what I had for breakfast. So that's, that's how the sausage, the breakfast sausage gets made. Yeah, that's a, that's a good looking picture. Yeah, I can almost see your thoughts. That's right. Very good definition. I, I, I, I dressed up in my fancy big boy shirt, like I had a, like I have a real job. So it was a good, it was a good, uh, pregame for Halloween this year to draw. No sweater though. No, no, this was, this was, they actually, they actually filmed this ahead of time. Like, wow, now a couple months ago. So, uh, definitely not sweater time down here in Austin. And then also, uh, my, uh, my register column for October came out on the topic of, uh, basically, hey, can we get the skills we need for our, uh, our technical people? And, um, I, I, I, when the, the cloud foundry foundation came out with a study about this a long time ago, I sort of, uh, chucked it as a way as something to write about. And, uh, it was good to kind of go out and take a survey of what people are recommending. And I had done a, uh, uh, a panel discussion at DevOps stays Kansas city with some people who commented on this. So it's sort of the, uh, as, as our buddy, Andrew Clay Schaefer would say, there is no talent shortage. There's just, uh, your inability to, to scope correctly, which hopefully that's true. We, we, we should make it true if not. So those are two, uh, little items to, uh, to point out.

Yeah, it was a good piece. Good comments as always. Yeah. I, I, I only read the first, uh, 60 or so, and then I stopped looking just, just, uh, just to save my own sanity. So Jared, back to you. We got, uh, we got a, when, when did this new version of pivotal cloud foundry come out? Uh, came out in the middle of September. So we seem to seem to hit these things in a pretty regular cadence. Now every three months, there's a dot release of pivotal cloud foundry. And of course, in between then there's, uh, a bunch of other things that we've, that we've shipped on the commercial front and as the open source front. So, uh, Richard, you had a nice post that talked about all the stuff that, that we ship and how, uh, big companies frankly should really be, uh, shipping us. Great. Yeah. And, and it seems like if I were, if I were to make some broad categorizations to, to, to, as they used to say, themes of this release, things in it. So first of all, uh, there, there's the, the, uh, the virtuous eternal quest of security, right? So there's, there's, there's better, better cred hub integration. And, and to some extent hooking it up to the, um, the continuous delivery, um, system we have concourse so that you can do patches, uh, faster, you know, fit into our, uh, our triple R thing of a good way to make sure you don't have malware running is to blow it away and reinstall that. And then the next area is, uh, speaking of sweater country, there's, there's a fair amount of, um, uh, dot net sort of Microsofty world, uh, enablement in there. And then, I don't know, there's the usual grab bag of miscellaneous things. There's always a fair amount of miscellaneous stuff, but, um, I don't know. I mean, I mean, do you, how, how would you categorize the, uh, the buckets of, of functionality in this version? And we always talk about in our R and D organization, the themes of investment, which is maybe a fancy way of saying what we, uh, what we like to prioritize. So, yeah, like you, like you mentioned, uh, we have, you know, first class windows and dot net support.

Um, so some of these are, uh, really attuned to that particular, you know, objective. And then the, the grab bag of security compliance stuff is really about this aspirational secure by default type of goal that we have. Um, and then there's a handful of other things, you know, the best platform for spring and then the usual developer productivity operator efficiency, you know, kinds of messages we like to talk about. And these themes are really important to, you know, orientating, you know, our, our customers around what's, what we feel is important. And so they know what's important to them is also in the mix there. And that just creates a really nice kind of your conversation for where we're investing in what we want to prioritize and how that jibes with the customer universe. And, and remind us what, uh, cred hub is again. Yeah. Cred hub. It's, uh, really how, you know, uh, secrets are, uh, managed inside of cloud foundry. And so you think, what are secrets? Well, secrets are your, uh, your passwords, certificates, SSH keys, RSA keys, arbitrary values like, you know, strings and JSON blobs, anything that is more or less a secret. So it's, it's not just the, uh, login and password stuff. There's a whole lot of other, um, really, uh, uh, really important information, sensitive information that you don't want to get in the hands of bad actors. And so cred hub is a centralized way that that's, that's managed inside of cloud foundry. Yeah. And, and, and, and I, my, my understanding, uh, and I say that because, you know, as I'm fond of saying, I just make slides, but my understanding is like in doing things in a, in a highly automated cloud, if not cloud native way, secrets management is a particularly difficult problem because, you know, if you're always bringing up and down, you know, not only VMs and containers and things like that, but new services and deploying and reconfiguring your networking, um, they have the same sort of password and credential issues that they've always had. So you need some way of automating that you can't manually do things, uh, like you could

in a slow past. So it's a, it's a, it's a pretty important thing to have bundled into a cloud platform like this. Yeah. For, for all the automation that we've seen with infrastructure and applications and software, you know, and even the automated patching that you alluded to with concourse, how do you automatically, you know, make sure that your, all of your secrets are securely stored and then you somehow reduce the value of a leaked secret, um, by rotating that in an automated type of fashion. So it's, it's really something that hasn't been, um, you know, really widely done in the industry. So I think there's some of the thought leadering as we like to do here at pivotal with the way that we've thought about, you know, cred hub, because as you mentioned, there's, you know, dozens of credentials in these automated systems that, you know, we're all using to store and house, you know, customer data. And so just because a human isn't interacting with those credentials doesn't mean that, you know, there's, there's not a risk there. Um, you know, we don't have these, you know, passwords on post-it notes on, uh, on your monitor for these, you know, machine to machine interactions, but they're definitely there and vulnerable to get sniped by bad actors. So, um, there's a lot more passwords than, than one might think, um, with all these cloud native systems there. So it's, uh, it's a really interesting, you know, challenge and definitely a, uh, a big opportunity, um, cause we've all seen, you know, the, the same company's name, you know, splashed in the, all over the business press for about, you know, six weeks now about how to try and combat all this, you know, infosec, um, you know, threats that are out there. Yeah. So there was also some other security things, Jared, I know that you were, you know, credit hub stuff was great, but then we almost moved up to the kind of application ready security stuff with the MTLS stuff, right? With containers, can you guys describe what some of the application centric things that we, we added in this release? Yeah, there's a, uh, I guess, you know, going down a tick into the secure by default, you know, this, there's this idea of, of TLS that's, you know, making its way into the, into the platform, up into the application stack and, um, even this idea of, of mutual TLS. And the idea there is that, you know, the, the, the server that's running the application

has a, as a, as a, as a certificate and the client also has a certificate and you want to have this trusted communication where the client is talking to the right server, the server's talking to the right clients, both the client and server know who each other are, and that's done in a, you know, very automated way where the certificates are deemed to be valid, um, before a, a transaction can take place. And so you're starting to see this, uh, you happen in, in more and more parts of the, of the platform between components, um, up to containers where you've got these, you know, credentials, you've got these, you know, secrets, you've got these certificates that are also getting rapidly, you know, rotated. Um, so it's just this, this, you know, greater level of, of assurance and peace of mind that, you know, the, the client is who it says it is. It's typically a phone or another, another laptop or something. And then the server, um, and, you know, conduct its business, you know, knowing that that's, that's actually the case. And so once you've got this, you know, uh, mutual TLS in more parts of the platform that, um, opens up a whole lot more, you know, workloads for, you know, the financial industry, the insurance industry, um, to put some of their applications on these cloud native platforms, because this mutual TLS is, uh, you know, uh, sometimes an industry regulation or sometimes it's just a corporate policy to have, have in play. So being able to have this end to end, uh, authentication between different, different components is, um, something that, you know, is, is really valued by a lot of the, a lot of the big companies out there. Yeah. See, one thing I was geeking out over with that, I think was this idea of actually having instance credentials that you would use with MTLS. Uh, so these containers have their own credential that actually rotates all the time, you know, every, every day by default, but you can configure that so that again, you know, the access to these containers actually changes. So, I mean, hopefully again, we see not just system components talking to each other, but, you know, app to app, container to container, being able to take advantage of constantly changing credentials is a, is a wild security profile. Yeah. And I think when it comes to InfoSec, you're only as secure as your weakest link.

If that, you know, if that's already a parable, it holds true. So you can't just be really confident in your security posture and some elements of the system. You've really got to think about this, you know, end to end, especially with the, the so-called crown jewel apps of your enterprise with your enterprise data, your customer data, things like that. Um, so we see what happens to companies when there's a significant breach out there. Yeah, absolutely. So then there were also some, uh, some updates to various services, uh, you know, some of them just adding a new metrics and things like that. But, but when that caught my eye in particular was, uh, we've got, we've got, uh, fuller, if you will, or, uh, much more, uh, deep rabbit MQ. Um, you know, you can, you can basically draw one up on demand now, um, which, um, I don't know when I go out to, uh, to conferences a lot, that's, I don't know what the pie chart is, but that comes rabbit comes up a lot. People are always, uh, very interested. So, so what are, like, what are the, what's, what are the details on that? As we say tile, uh, in there. Yeah, we've seen a really strong interest in customers, you know, just thinking about, you know, cloud native data and how they do their, their data store with all of their, you know, cloud native applications. And really, I think the, the secret to doing this well, at least in, in cloud foundry land is Bosch. So now there are, uh, Bosch releases of a handful of, of data services that are out there, um, that, uh, that now include rabbit. And so once you've got a Bosch release of, of rabbit along with, you know, my sequel, pivotal cloud cash and others, then you can get, you know, on demand, you know, provisioning, um, of these instances, you can get on demand, um, you know, clusters of these kinds of things. And so that means that developers get the services that they want immediately with that glorious self-service model that is really fueled a lot of this, you know, cloud computing, uh, you know, adoption in recent times, um, you're also seeing, uh, uh, operators being able to control the usage with service plans and figure out, um, you know, how to get the right, you know, resource allocation

for what the developers are looking for. So it's a way to bring some of these enterprise data services with rabbit in particular for messaging, um, really into this, you know, speed self-service, you know, kind of, kind of dimension. Yeah, it's exciting stuff. It's neat that, uh, people can try that out today. So in the other areas you, uh, you pointed out in the article, we had some follow-up as well as on Steeltoe in this release. And again, we, we said, we tend to bundle a lot of things into the release announcement. This work has been going on for a while, but can you tell us a little bit about Steeltoe and this release? Yeah. So we've seen, uh, really probably the, the, the Java kids have the most fun with all this microservices stuff going on with, uh, with, uh, the world of spring and some of the things with, you know, spring boot, you know, spring cloud and spring cloud services taking advantage of some of these Netflix patterns. Um, but as a lot of the, uh, uh, Steeltoe team at Pivotal likes to talk about, there's a renaissance for .NET happening as well. And so that means that this universe universe of open source tooling is sort of finding its way to .NET developers and .NET applications. And so with Steeltoe now, you're seeing some of these, uh, really popular microservices patterns, um, become, you know, more officially part of the, of the project with, uh, you know, circuit breaker in particular is probably the, the main highlight, um, with all the microservices, you're talking to each other in these applications, um, failures are going to happen. And when they do happen, you should probably protect against that to make sure that you don't get this cascading effect for all kinds of different, you know, failures in your application. And, uh, the circuit breaker tooling, um, again, you know, really, really pioneered by Netflix, um, has been out there and used a lot by the spring community. And so now there's, um, a .NET port of this, uh, of this pattern. So as you're doing microservices in .NET, you can take advantage of, um, this capability and make sure the applications still stay resilient, even if a service who happens to, happens to fail. Super cool. Yeah. No, it's exciting stuff. That team's been cranking on some good things. There's

some good sample apps there as well. So it's been fun to see so many .NET devs try to jump into this space and modernize their apps. Yeah. There's even, you know, like with, uh, with Spring Boot, you know, actuator, another, you know, nice, uh, nice tool, um, that gives you metrics about your applications in the, again, in the world of Java, you can now get that for .NET. So it's, it's happening with Netflix and then some other areas with, you know, container networking, um, being able to use some of the config server patterns, you know, from, uh, from HashiCorp vault. So it really is happening on a, on a number of different fronts, as you mentioned. And, and so, as I was, uh, mentioning earlier, some of the services had, uh, better metrics added to them, but I think there was an overall, uh, improvement of, and adding new capabilities to, uh, PCF metrics. Um, and I think, I think in particular, you know, for, for things like, uh, Spring Boot and as they say, adding some actuators in there. And so I'm, I'm curious about that because I've, as, as was pointed out to me, not to, uh, not to, uh, steal his idea too much or borrow it. But as, as was pointed out to me over, I don't know, some sort of fusiony Indian, Middle Eastern food restaurant. When I was in a DevOps days, London by James governor, the, uh, observability, that's going to be a big deal. So I think, you know, if, if you take that concept of instrumenting, as we used to say in my day, your, uh, your applications so that they can be observed, it seems like, uh, when I've been reading up on what PCF metrics is, like it's helping towards, uh, that trend quite a bit, but what's, what do we have in this release to help out in the, uh, the metrics area? Yeah, it's been a really fascinating, uh, your team and module to, to watch it's, it's evolution. And as you say, you know, observability, you know, with, with microservices, you've got all these complicated interactions happening and it sometimes makes, uh, you know, troubleshooting, you know, metrics, you know, debugging, you know, logging, all those kinds of operational things. It makes it really a lot harder, um, when you are doing, you know, microservices. Uh, but of course the velocity you get with microservices makes it well worth the trade-off. So you just have to think about this

observability stuff, you know, a little bit differently. And so there's been a whole universe of tools that have come out to help you, you know, do that, you know, things like Zipkin for distributed tracing and metrics has included things like that for, uh, for cloud foundry apps. And in this one, uh, I think the metrics team, you know, goes a little bit further and, um, really gives a nice benefit to, to spring boot developers where all these actuator metrics for your spring boot apps are now automatically populated and pass through into, into, into PCF metrics. So there's a really nice set of spring metrics that you get right out of the box, um, that just works as, uh, as we like to say inside of your PCF metrics. So you can do some really cool things like building custom dashboards for how your applications are going. And it's just all meant to be this idea of how can you, you know, quickly troubleshoot and debug your microservices where you don't have people inside your organization that understand, you know, the holistic system end to end, and you've got all kinds of dependencies that are changing, you know, all the time. So really a nice lift for, for spring devs out of the box to get some of these, you know, different, different capabilities. And, you know, I, as, as, as I'm perhaps annoyingly fond of, uh, reminding people, I used to work on this stuff and on systems management things. And, um, I think, I think, I think one of the more interesting angles on this, I mean, I, I, I, at least for me, I think one of the major themes we have with how, how pivotal cloud foundry helps organizations is the larger the organization, the more you standardize and centralize what you're doing, the easier it will be to scale, uh, all the positive good stuff, right. To, you know, instead of having a bunch of people, uh, doing things differently, or having a bunch of people do things, a bunch of different ways, having different ways of managing and gathering your metrics. If you can standardize on that as much as possible, you eliminate that part of, uh, the process and you can focus on the higher value thing. So I think overall, like with having, having a, uh, standard plane of metrics and how you instrument and how you gather them is, uh, extremely useful for adding in the, uh, that, uh, I don't know that efficiency and scaling things up.

And then of course you can always use a combination of, I don't know, floods and sinks and draining to put it in whatever your favorite, your favorite systems management tools are and screw it all up by going crazy heterogeneous, if that's your choice. Uh, but, and, and in fact, like, you know, we provide a good baseline of this and for, for much more detailed things, it's good to, uh, strap on some of our partners things, which is totally fine, but it's, it's, it's always nice to see it at various layers of a cloud platform like this, uh, a fair amount of thought put into how you would standardize this so that you don't have to, uh, as a user, you don't have to like burn through the cognitive, uh, firewood of dealing with a bunch of different ways of doing something. You know, you don't want to mess around with SNMP, JMX, whatever it is they do in windows land nowadays. And, uh, not to mention like switches and other weirdness. And that was very visually evocative. That was a good answer. Yeah. You can tell that I worked way too much figuring out how SNMP works. And I just, I just want to, uh, I want to mine that sunk cost as much as possible. That's important. That's good. That's right. Yeah. So the last thing we had for you, Jerry, I wanted to talk, and this is a little hot off the press too, since I think we formally shifted all last week, but the small footprint, the, you know, can you tell us a little bit about that, which you teased in the blog announcement about one 12 and then came to fruition, uh, formally last week, what, what's the story there? Yeah, we mentioned, uh, I think you mentioned, you know, red monk earlier in the podcast and they're, they're fond of saying the best packaging of, you know, uh, open source tech or of software, um, wins, or it has a really outsized effect on the success of something in the, in the marketplace. And so with, with cloud foundry, you know, in the past we've had, you know, a really meaty install of it because it's designed for HA and day two operations and all this, you know, glorious, uh, operational things that we like to talk about. Uh, but there's a handful of scenarios where some customers said, you know, could I just use that on a, a smaller set of VMs? Is there any way that could be possible? And so we've taken some of that feedback to heart and, uh, you've done some pretty, uh,

interesting engineering to co-locate, uh, a lot of the PCF components our customers know and love, um, into a really small subset of, uh, of infrastructure. So, uh, the standard install of, of cloud foundry will be about 30 VMs with a small footprint goes all the way down to six. And so now there's a much lower bar to, uh, to try out, you know, cloud foundry as this application platform, and that makes sense to use in a number of different scenarios. So it's really a nice way just to, uh, reduce friction in getting this platform in the hands of interested developers, um, in a number of different cases. And, and so like, what are the, uh, I mean, obviously some things are subtracted away, but what, what's, what are the capabilities? Uh, cause if I remember it's like, you know, 30 VMs down to six. So there must be some things that aren't in there. Like what's a, what's a good overview of what's not in there. What's, what isn't in there. I think it's, it's actually a lot more than, than you would think. We still have, you know, two VMs for, for Bosch. And then we've gotten your cred hub. So all the same CVE stuff that we've, that we've talked about in there. And then for the most part with what we call the elastic runtime, um, it's really just, you know, jammed down in to about, you know, four VMs and then each one of those four VMs has a different role for the control plane or for the database or what have you. And then some of those can be scaled out, um, independently, uh, to give you a little bit more availability if you, if you need it. Um, but it really is sort of this, you know, full featured, you know, kind of experience. Um, there's some things with, you know, build packs and stuff like that, that, uh, that are stored in a little bit of a different way. Um, but for the most part, it's, uh, a lot of the same, um, things that you've come to expect from the elastic runtime. Yeah. There's, there's a nice diagram on it, of it, uh, on the blog post I'll link to. But you know, when you look over it, it's, it's sort of like, uh, production, like big scale things, uh, that, that aren't included, which, which are fine, but to your point, it allows you to, uh, more easily wrap your arms around, uh, what, what, what doing PCF stuff would be like.

Yeah, which is cool. Do you see this, Jared, as we think about PCF dev, which is that single VM instance today that folks can use and download and just run PCF on their desktop and even CF local, something that's now in the Cloud Foundry foundation for kind of doing some Dockerized local development. Do you see this conflicting with those or are they obviously serving different use cases based on kind of the audience? Where do you see that landing? Yeah, I think it's really a different, different tool for a different audience. You know, if you look at what, what PCF dev is, that's a, that's a great way for developers to be really productive, um, you know, with, with Cloud Foundry, you know, from their, from their workstation, um, the, the small footprint PCF is really about, um, being able to, to try it out as a proof of concept, be able to have, um, a related team inside your organization, give the platform a try, um, or even where you'd want to run your Cloud Foundry in production, uh, outside of a data center. I know we've talked to some, some prospects on cruise lines or, you know, wanting to run your Cloud Foundry at a warehouse location or, or retail location, um, and still have some, you know, reasonable of your production metrics. So it really is a different tool for those kinds of use cases apart from some of the other individual, you know, developer kinds of tools that we've developed in the past. Sure. I know, I know one case I've seen some folks excited is sometimes they've spun up PCF dev for training exercises or local labs just to kind of get it off out the door. But all of a sudden, actually having the small footprint and a full install is a little more attractive than just cramming this on everyone's desktop. So it seems like that also may help non-production cases where you still need a good sandbox. Yeah, it seems, it seems like, uh, there's like, as you were outlining, there's, there's some, uh, interesting production cases, but it's sort of like a PCF dev for ops people if they want to have a, uh, easier way of bringing things. But of course we know that development and operations people work together hand in hand. So there's this myth that there would be ops people must not exist, but I, I don't want to get everyone upset. Well, uh, great. They eat pizza while they're doing that, right? Exactly. Exactly. Everyone's, everyone's subsisting

on a two piece of diet with, with their, their, their even number amount of teammates. So, uh, we've got that going on for us. Well, uh, thanks for being on to give that, that overview. I think that was, that was a quick overview to just check in on how this, this, uh, stuff has been operating. And then finally, um, I mean, I mean, we, we basically adopted a regular release train, uh, sort of schedule around this stuff, right? What, what's the cadence for that, that people should expect releases of stuff? Yeah, there's this really nice, uh, steady drumbeat of, of releases that we, that we seem to do every, every three months. Um, and that's been, uh, I think really a consistent theme the last year and a half or so. So, um, uh, I think, you know, March, June, September, December tend to be the, the times when we ship these, uh, dot releases as you alluded to. And, um, with lots of goodness, of course, uh, in between, but it's really nice for, um, you know, customers to have that predictability, uh, in their, you know, in their mission critical platforms. There you go. Consistency. Who doesn't want that? Well, so, uh, speaking of that, uh, this, the first week of December, I believe December, uh, did I say September or the first December 4th and 5th, we're having our conference SpringOne platform over there in a lovely San Francisco, bring a sweater and a slicker just in case. And, uh, if you're interested in going that I'm sure we'll be talking about, uh, pivotal cloud foundry plenty. And there'll also be lots of actual users and customers coming and talking about not only how the technology works and what they've been doing, but how they've successfully. And usually I encourage people to talk about their unsuccessful attempts as well, but the best and worst practices of how they've been improving health software is done at their organization. Uh, but it's, it's great to come out to that. And if you're interested, uh, we've got many, many of the sessions posted now. I don't think all of them, so you can check back more, but, uh, if you, if you want to register, you can use the discount code S1P200 underscore C O T E get $200 off, or you could pay the full amount, however you like to entertain yourself and, uh, and expense things.

And as, uh, with that, as always, if you want to get the most recent episodes of Pivotal Conversations, you can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations, no underscore in there, just one big long word. Um, and you can find the past episodes. And if you're, if you're really up to it, you can go in and annotate little, uh, links in, in the episode. We did a link on using like TensorFlow, uh, with PCF. And I saw that, uh, that we went in and annotated some of the things in there, which is delightful to see. And, uh, you know, really what you should just do is subscribe to the RSS feed, which you can find wherever you do this kind of stuff. And with that, we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye.

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