1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,360 So welcome everybody to the first 2024 episode of Coté and me doing interviews on Tanzu Talk. 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:12,580 And I'm really excited today. We have Serdar Badem, who is a director of product management 3 00:00:12,580 --> 00:00:19,120 at Tanzu by Broadcom. So one of our very own colleagues. And I'm really excited because I had 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:25,540 the opportunity to meet Serdar last week and he made a comment, just sort of a casual comment 5 00:00:25,540 --> 00:00:31,640 about all of how excited he was. We'll learn more about him from him directly, but I'll 6 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,200 just tell you who was at VMware before and then he left and he spent some time at Uber 7 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,700 and then he came back to VMware just in time for us to be incorporated into Broadcom. But 8 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:45,920 he came back and he made a comment that he was very excited and had a lot of ideas to 9 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:51,960 bring into the Tanzu division now at Broadcom. And that just sort of sparked my interest and 10 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:57,280 I wanted to learn more. So I figured why not deep dive into that comment with all of you 11 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:03,940 here today. So just to get us started, I guess, Serdar, would you tell us a little bit more 12 00:01:03,940 --> 00:01:09,280 about what you're doing currently at Broadcom? A little bit more about yourself. 13 00:01:10,340 --> 00:01:17,720 Awesome. Thank you, Cora and Coté. I am excited to be a part of this podcast. 14 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:26,460 So I'm leading product management for spring and content and developer solutions here at 15 00:01:26,460 --> 00:01:35,880 Tanzu division by Broadcom. And really excited to be back at VMware and we have ambitious goals. 16 00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:47,200 And our focus is as much as it's ever been around making developers more productive and providing 17 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:53,160 the tools and services to remove friction from their daily lives. 18 00:01:53,780 --> 00:02:01,120 Amazing. So do you feel like that's been a thread throughout your career, sort of that focus on 19 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:01,920 developer productivity? 20 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:09,940 Yeah, pretty much. I mean, it's always, well, originally I started as a developer myself 21 00:02:09,940 --> 00:02:18,080 at Hill Packard, the open view of division. Some of us may still remember. And I started, 22 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:26,760 you know, we were building tools for the enterprises, especially IT, to manage their infrastructure at that 23 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:36,020 time, and then slowly evolved from IT into more around tools for developers to remove the tedious 24 00:02:36,020 --> 00:02:42,660 work and eliminate friction in their daily workflows. 25 00:02:43,660 --> 00:02:48,920 Yeah, we've come a long, a long way. So you've seen everything. You've seen the operation side, 26 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,180 you're deep in the operation side and the development side. 27 00:02:51,180 --> 00:02:59,500 Yeah, I mean, I think most more recently at Uber, I was the product management lead for their developer 28 00:02:59,500 --> 00:03:11,540 platform. Uber has a large platform engineering team and making all the developers, Uber is a technology 29 00:03:11,540 --> 00:03:18,760 company at the end of the day, and keeping those thousands of developers more productive and providing 30 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:28,020 them with all the tools and frameworks to make them more efficient was our primary goal. 31 00:03:28,020 --> 00:03:31,020 And that may be a more recent context in that. 32 00:03:31,020 --> 00:03:39,080 So how do you think about that challenge or measure that goal of developer productivity? What does that mean to you? 33 00:03:39,080 --> 00:04:07,120 Yeah, I know. It's a, it's a complicated subject, isn't it? Like, you know, how do we, how would you create an environment where developers feel happy and, you know, they want to just show up and do the best work of their career? So that's, that was the, that was our goal, basically. 34 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:16,380 And of course, we want to measure, measure it. It's not necessarily for, from performance of individual engineers perspective. 35 00:04:16,380 --> 00:04:45,640 But, you know, if you know, if you think about having a team of hundreds of engineers building tools and frameworks that these developers use, you want to understand what are all the pain points, what are the frictions and how, and you can argue that the, if we can provide the best tools, then that would turn into productivity gains for the entire organization. 36 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:50,500 For all the developers and create that atmosphere. 37 00:04:50,500 --> 00:04:54,280 It expresses a faith in humanity that if people are happy, they're going to do their best work. 38 00:04:54,400 --> 00:05:07,280 So it's not, you know, like, you know, you could have said, well, you know, make developers happiest because that way they'll be most productive and then they'll yield more to the business, you know, which is like the more, the financial sort of drive for a business, I guess. 39 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:19,300 But I think it's really beautiful that you're like this, there's this real sincere, you know, faith in humanity that, that happy people will, will do more and do better because that, that happiness will drive them. 40 00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:21,000 And so the idea is to make people happy. 41 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:24,720 I think, I think it's really a beautiful principle to live by. 42 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:37,400 Getting to increasing the beauty in the world, as it were, like, like, I was, you know, given, given what, you know, you, you product manage now at a vendor, if you will. 43 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:43,340 And then having worked at, let's just say, a customer, a user, right? 44 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:48,820 Like a company who's, who's a business other than selling software or cloud services or whatever. 45 00:05:48,820 --> 00:06:00,520 And then product managing before that, like, what, so, so you've talked with people at all sorts of organizations and worked in some like Uber, right? 46 00:06:01,660 --> 00:06:20,580 And I've been trying to figure out, like, let, let me, let me, let me paint a scenario I think is on the other end of the spectrum of developer productivity, not in a bad way, but like, you know, I was thinking the, like, whatever app I use to refill my prescription, like, it doesn't really get updated that much. 47 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,220 And like, it's fine, right? 48 00:06:25,220 --> 00:06:40,460 Like, and, and in fact, it's, I kind of don't want it to be up to, or I don't know, that's, I shouldn't say it that way, but like, versus, in contrast, I would imagine, I mean, you, you would know better than I do, but like, and maybe this answers my question about the pharmacy thing. 49 00:06:40,460 --> 00:06:49,720 But even if people using Uber don't see it in, in the UI, there are probably a lot of software changes going on all the time, right? 50 00:06:49,880 --> 00:07:05,360 And so I wonder, like, I'm, I'm always trying to calibrate on like, so a company like Uber really cares about developer productivity, because they, in the same way that I assume Mercedes doesn't want their factories to rust. 51 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,880 It's just like, they don't even question why you would care about it, right? 52 00:07:09,980 --> 00:07:10,340 Absolutely. 53 00:07:11,020 --> 00:07:16,700 Versus like other companies, like, how do they figure out, like, how productive do we need to be? 54 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,500 Like, and, and how do we figure that out? 55 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:27,000 So that when people like us come in and we're like, ooh, developer productivity, you should be deploying 50 times a day, if not thousands, like booking.com or whatever. 56 00:07:27,620 --> 00:07:38,740 Like, I feel like maybe the, the pharmacy people are kind of like, eh, or, or like, not that they're not convinced, but there's like a different discussion going on around that kind of stuff. 57 00:07:38,740 --> 00:07:53,720 At a company like Uber, imagine there are thousands of microservices, over 5,000 microservices, and these are running in, and there's a lot of dependencies between them. 58 00:07:53,720 --> 00:08:00,940 And small teams own and, or they're responsible for running these microservices. 59 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,380 They, they create them and they also run it. 60 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,680 They're on call to support if, if, if an incident happens. 61 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:21,900 And, you know, since these platforms are running at a huge scale, there are major implications of having something down or not working the way you expect it. 62 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:28,660 There are big implications for the business, both financial and reputation wise. 63 00:08:28,660 --> 00:08:47,800 So, you know, and, and that's why having a platform to be able to run everything efficiently and in a productive way and producing quality software is, is important. 64 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:59,460 And remember the message is, every, every company is actually becoming a software company these days, uh, when you see the technology, uh, everywhere. 65 00:08:59,460 --> 00:09:04,300 So even in cars or, or, or whatever. 66 00:09:04,300 --> 00:09:18,800 Uh, so, uh, and then there was no doubt about, uh, why developer productivity was a top of mind for, for the executives, uh, at, at, at any, uh, any, any company. 67 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:19,800 And for sure. 68 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:29,740 The way I, how I see it, there were some key metrics that we would track and, uh, report up to, uh, up to the CEO every month, uh, around this. 69 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:30,760 Yeah. 70 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:41,600 And like, I, I think, you know, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're kind of, as, as you say, driving towards, uh, like a, like kind of an interesting conclusion that in the conclusion, like next sort of juncture in, in the road. 71 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:55,620 We're going to really get trapped in this metaphor, uh, which is like, if you are relying on software to run your business, chances are you care about developer productivity versus like, you know, to be an absurd about it. 72 00:09:55,620 --> 00:09:55,800 Right. 73 00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:10,640 Like no one's really concerned about like, uh, pencil productivity, just like the, the potential of pencils has peaked like after the mechanical pencil, we don't need to have like someone like yourself working on the pencil platforms inside of a company. 74 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:12,020 It's all settled. 75 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:20,420 Whereas like the, the nature of using software as a tool to, to, to run a business is far from pencilized, uh, as it were. 76 00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:24,340 So like, you're still constantly trying to figure out how to do it better. 77 00:10:24,660 --> 00:10:29,280 Um, and I think, and I, and you, you know, the, the, the other thing that. 78 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:42,800 Like you were kind of alluding to as far as like availability and things like that is, and I was kind of joking about is like, maybe even though the way that I, you know, renew a prescription doesn't really seem to change ever. 79 00:10:43,020 --> 00:10:49,720 There's probably a lot of stuff that I don't see that's changing that needs developers and developer minded people to worry about it all the time. 80 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:56,340 Like I often think like example, in the pharmacy business, there's always some new regulation that you have to comply with. 81 00:10:56,340 --> 00:11:01,360 And, and the government hasn't read that whole thing about like developers are bad at estimating deadlines. 82 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:02,680 They're like, they don't care. 83 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:03,980 You've got to hit this date. 84 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:05,000 Anyhow. 85 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:15,440 Um, so, so maybe as you're saying, that is kind of like a motivation for everyone caring a lot about developer productivity, which, which I think makes sense. 86 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:22,840 I was going to, I know as Coté, as you were talking, like, I mean, this differentiation between like some organizations may care more than others. 87 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:30,600 And I, I can see like in the human experience, like there's certainly like some products that we come across where we can tell that that product is not important to a company. 88 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,900 Like the user experience for a certain product is not important to a company. 89 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:44,400 And now that software has gotten so good, the end user experience with software has gotten so good, you know, in the same way that we say like companies care about developer productivity and they care about developer happiness. 90 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,880 Companies also care about user happiness, right. 91 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,560 For, for good, solid business reasons. 92 00:11:49,560 --> 00:12:00,080 And there is, and there are some software products that are produced by companies where like, it's not that important if a user is happy or not, because like when you fill your prescription, like who cares? 93 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,780 Like you got your health insurance from your company. 94 00:12:01,780 --> 00:12:07,100 It's not a choice that you're making and you're not likely to jump away from that prescription provider to another one. 95 00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:07,280 Right. 96 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:33,020 So that is not an area where there's a lot of competition or they feel a lot of threat of losing a customer, but so I feel like maybe that's, maybe it's a prioritization in terms of like sort of business value, but that doesn't mean that those same companies in the software that they're producing, that is more relevant, more germane or more vital and core to their business, those same companies still have this challenge. 97 00:12:33,020 --> 00:12:33,340 Right. 98 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,240 Well, I want to actually, I want to maybe disagree. 99 00:12:36,780 --> 00:12:45,460 So think about it this way, even every business is, this is always evolving and there's always disruption. 100 00:12:45,460 --> 00:12:48,460 There are newcomers coming in, eating, eating away. 101 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,660 So there's always new ways and more efficient ways, better ways to serve your customers. 102 00:12:53,820 --> 00:12:55,980 And this could be prescription as well. 103 00:12:56,180 --> 00:12:59,780 So you see, there's a lot of competition, even in the pharmacies. 104 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:01,340 How do you keep the drug prices? 105 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,280 But at the same time, deliver at the delivery, there's a lot of innovation there. 106 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:11,080 With how you connect with customers and help customers manage their prescriptions. 107 00:13:11,820 --> 00:13:14,960 And, you know, I think this is, this is a hot area. 108 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:26,640 So if you think about those companies, maybe established players, providing, seeing the pressure to provide new ways to interact with their customers, 109 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:36,640 they need to build those new applications and have all the software to be able to, you know, personalize medicine. 110 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:37,760 So there's a lot of innovation that's needed there. 111 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:50,320 And so it actually forces these businesses, established players to also even brick and mortar players to be, become a software business. 112 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:59,000 And so then they also feel, they should feel the same pressure as, as, as, as, as a, you know, ride share company providing an experience. 113 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:10,840 You know, if you look at the business itself, it's been there for a long time, but the way you provide the service and improving the customer experiences, that's where the pressure is. 114 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:29,220 And now to be able to do that to, so now you're a software business business really, and, and then you really have the same pressures to, to, to run your business more efficiently, productive and have the high availability. 115 00:14:29,220 --> 00:14:59,200 So, so productivity, developer productivity, that has to be top of mind for, for any company and really, you know, the way we think about the productivity, or if you think about, you know, teams, platform engineering teams and developer platform teams, there is a, there are some best practices, uh, on how, how they can think about, uh, running, uh, those platforms, uh, efficiently and, and productive. 116 00:14:59,220 --> 00:15:05,120 So the same, the same focus that we used to have for customer happiness has really shifted internally. 117 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,980 And that developer is as important as our external customer was. 118 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,120 I think, I think it's true, right? 119 00:15:11,140 --> 00:15:14,740 That's pretty universally, uh, understood today. 120 00:15:14,740 --> 00:15:18,300 I'm not, I'm not actually quite sure when that shift happened. 121 00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:22,100 If I think back in history, it was a little bit gradual. 122 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:24,260 There was that book, the new Kingmakers that came out. 123 00:15:24,260 --> 00:15:28,860 I think it might've been like 2005 ish or something like that quite a while ago. 124 00:15:29,020 --> 00:15:34,160 So, um, maybe that sort of time period is when this kind of thinking kicked off. 125 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:34,380 Right. 126 00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:40,260 And the, and the internal developer became as important as the, as the customer, but I guess 127 00:15:40,260 --> 00:15:45,100 I wanted to ask you, uh, what are, what are some examples of things that you did at Uber 128 00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:48,820 when that developer productivity became your main priority? 129 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:50,180 Yeah. 130 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:56,680 You know, um, so maybe if I, uh, take a step back and think about, think about it, what does 131 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,820 the, what does the, what does an internal developer, uh, form team does? 132 00:16:01,820 --> 00:16:04,960 You know, one thing is, you know, there, there are, there are three factors really. 133 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:13,060 One is we want to accelerate and that's really, uh, provide, having the right velocity, go fast. 134 00:16:13,060 --> 00:16:15,060 Time to market is important. 135 00:16:15,060 --> 00:16:17,960 Second, uh, aspect is quality. 136 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,960 Um, you know, we want to make sure you have provide the safety nets for your developers. 137 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:29,500 So they can, you're, you can be more confident when you release software and move fast. 138 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,400 And the third one is efficiency. 139 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:39,700 So it always boils down to these three factors, quality, and efficiency and efficiency is really 140 00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:47,160 about, um, when you run a platform at scale, if you standardize, then you can, uh, lower the 141 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,760 cost, you can run things more, uh, in a more efficient way. 142 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:58,660 And that was, that was, uh, uh, this, that's probably a good strategy for, uh, a lot of internal 143 00:16:58,660 --> 00:17:01,520 developer, uh, platform teams. 144 00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:05,800 And you really also, you want to be able to measure what matters. 145 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,560 You, you want to be able to have the right metrics in front of you. 146 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,600 So you can, uh, prioritize, uh, effectively. 147 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:23,660 So now, you know, maybe, uh, a lot of, a lot of the tools that we, uh, we built was in, in these buckets. 148 00:17:23,660 --> 00:17:29,440 So when you think about velocity, those are all the tools that you provide to developers, the powerful 149 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:30,080 frameworks. 150 00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:36,560 So that takes away all the busy work from developers, uh, lives. 151 00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:43,760 So that's why a framework like a spring framework, uh, for Java developers, uh, become really important. 152 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,900 It takes, it handles all that boilerplate code that you would write. 153 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:56,700 So you already, you want to make sure, make it easy for developers to get started with a new project and, uh, and make 154 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,320 sure that it has all the logs metrics. 155 00:18:00,380 --> 00:18:08,420 It's all connected to whatever the platform offers, uh, and new developers can start easily. 156 00:18:09,140 --> 00:18:19,220 So the, the framework and, uh, and then, uh, how we organize the repositories, the dependencies was, was an important part of, uh, what we did there. 157 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:26,360 So, um, on the quality side, there were a whole bunch of test automation, uh, tooling, uh, around there. 158 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:48,080 Um, and, uh, to be able to standardize things, uh, at Uber, we used maybe a contradictory subject, but we use mono repos, uh, on, as when we think about standardizing and having a centralized platform team doing all of these, uh, for the thousands of developers that you have. 159 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:55,340 And, uh, and I can be more specific about some of the exciting, uh, some, uh, projects that, that we've, we've done there. 160 00:18:55,340 --> 00:19:02,120 And mentioning the spring framework and, and boilerplate and, and then also like, well, standardizing things. 161 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:08,920 Like, I'm, I'm curious to hear, like, I feel like way back when I actually, uh, worked at BMC software. 162 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:22,500 So I know open view, but, uh, a long time ago when I was actually a developer, like if someone other than if basically anyone said they were going to standardize the way I was doing my work, that made me feel very uncomfortable. 163 00:19:22,740 --> 00:19:25,520 Cause then someone else was going to be in control of what I was doing. 164 00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:27,660 And so I'm always trying to filter in my head. 165 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:37,280 Like if you're the, you know, a platform group, a tools group, how do you, how do you find the level of standardization that works? 166 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:44,600 And, and I mean, works in the broadest thing that like the developers actually follow it and it gains the benefits that you want by, by standardizing. 167 00:19:45,320 --> 00:20:04,200 Yeah, I think maybe, maybe hard that when somebody says you have to use these tools or, um, you know, kind of constraining the things that you, the, the, the tool set or, uh, things that you could do. 168 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,500 But if you could make it work, it becomes a magical thing. 169 00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:30,440 Um, and, and also you should understand that it's not like forcing everyone to use, uh, use, uh, the tools that, that you provide, uh, you know, these internal teams responsible and they're accountable for the, the, the tools and systems that they provide. 170 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,660 And they also have SLAs that they need to provide. 171 00:20:33,660 --> 00:20:53,080 And the fact that I, uh, a person, a product manager even exists for that internal, uh, platform team kind of suggests that, you know, you really take it seriously, understanding the pain points of your customers, your internal customers. 172 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:59,180 If you're an internal product team, a platform team is, uh, those developers. 173 00:20:59,180 --> 00:21:10,300 So, you know, uh, there are many ways that we get their feedback, uh, like the NPS surveys that you would run every six months or quarterly. 174 00:21:10,300 --> 00:21:29,180 Uh, in addition to other microfeedback loops that, that you have, uh, and all the metrics that you get in, you know, how much time it takes for you to run a git status command on your laptop or how much, uh, the local build takes. 175 00:21:29,180 --> 00:21:40,020 You measure these different levels like P-75, P-95, and you try to improve the processes and, and the tooling and the speed every time. 176 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,060 And that's, that's the way that, uh, that, that we, we approached. 177 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:51,360 And, uh, but also another point is, you know, having standardization really helps. 178 00:21:51,780 --> 00:21:54,700 Otherwise, you know, the governance becomes an issue. 179 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:10,700 You know, we, there's a good reason why we had a monorepo up those dependencies when you have a complex world with 5,000 microservices and thousands of tens of thousands of repositories, uh, with multiple projects. 180 00:22:10,780 --> 00:22:25,020 You know, that, you know, that, at that scale, to be able to run, uh, efficiently, uh, and still keep your business running smoothly, that there wasn't much, many options the way, that's the way we saw it. 181 00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:35,540 So we had to have a monorepo, uh, in that case, or we had to, uh, provide central team automatically upgrading the dependencies all the time. 182 00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:53,180 Or, uh, you know, also it's important that one developer, let's say, uh, who works on some area can easily move to another code and still, uh, help out there if you have that, that, that, that standardization. 183 00:22:53,180 --> 00:23:00,880 So all of these are, are the benefits of having, uh, having a platform and having, having a standardization. 184 00:23:01,340 --> 00:23:12,040 And I think once you start working in that environment, you know, there wasn't much of a question that, of course, there were sometimes, uh, when, when there's a new project, you know, there are questions. 185 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:19,240 Okay, is this, uh, you know, should I use these tools that are provided to me or should I go pick something else? 186 00:23:19,460 --> 00:23:20,960 That, that's a valid question. 187 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:34,600 Uh, but, you know, we, we really didn't, uh, once the, uh, once you get to a level that everything runs smoothly, there wasn't much question about the, the tools that, that were provided. 188 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:50,680 Yeah, I think, you know, what, well, you, you would know better than I with, with all your roles, but it's, it's sort of like, I think the difference is you product manage the tools and part of product managing is like your customer should be happy, right? 189 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:55,640 Like, like if they don't actually like the product, then you haven't really done that great of a job doing it. 190 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:08,420 Whereas, you know, there is, there is another way of, uh, especially back in, in, uh, in, in probably your open view and my BMC days, there was a way of providing AT, IT services and capabilities. 191 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:20,620 There was a lot more about the delivery of that thing met some sort of like budgetary and performance needs, regardless of the happiness of people using it. 192 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:42,540 And so like, if you, if you add in this, as you were saying, whether it's NPS or, or actually making sure that the day-to-day use of the users, like it's productive for them, then you're more motivated to obviously standardize stuff for the, um, the benefits that the organization, the corporation gets right for cost controls and being able to scale. 193 00:24:42,820 --> 00:24:54,100 But then you also have to make sure that standardize what you're giving, the tools you're giving developers, they like, like that's, that's part of what you're supposed to be delivering, which I think is, I don't know. 194 00:24:54,240 --> 00:25:12,240 I, I still feel like that, that role is a little novel sometimes when it comes to like really, really big organizations and, and thinking about me, of course, everyone has good intentions, but thinking about how you do that and how you introduce like that into, into the process is, is always the trick of making sure you pay attention to it. 195 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:40,060 Yeah, thanks Coté, I mean, I think, uh, once you focus on the pain points, uh, of developers and, uh, you have, you're completely, you're obsessed about providing them and making sure they're, um, you fix all the broken windows and, uh, take every feedback and act on them. 196 00:25:40,060 --> 00:25:42,080 And, uh, of course you need to prioritize. 197 00:25:42,080 --> 00:26:04,780 It's not like these teams have tons of things that they, they do, uh, but, uh, you know, thing on the top developer pain points, uh, once you do that and you use that as a guidance, as you come up with your plans for the, for the team, um, and it, it becomes a magical. 198 00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:07,400 And we had data to prove that as well. 199 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:28,200 So year over year, you're, if you're measuring, uh, in a consistent way, the developer productivity with the NPS score, which is that the main question there is how would you recommend this developer platform to, uh, your fellow, uh, engineers or your, uh, friends. 200 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:38,000 And that, that, that question, you get that answer, uh, and, and you can see the, the improvements that you make in, in developers, uh, lives. 201 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:50,840 Uh, and then also the, you can also see a correlation between that and the overall productivity metrics that, that, that you measure and as well. 202 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,900 So it's not just, okay, warm and fuzzy feelings. 203 00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:56,860 It's, uh, also, uh, very much data driven. 204 00:26:58,620 --> 00:27:11,340 One of the things that you said earlier, um, when you talked about, um, I mean, first, first of all, I just want to say like that, the classification of an internal developer platform in these four categories, performance, quality, efficiency, metrics. 205 00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:14,540 I think that's, uh, it's, it's, it's so clear and it's so clean. 206 00:27:14,660 --> 00:27:15,820 I think that's a really good framework. 207 00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:25,060 Um, and then you mentioned in the, uh, amongst the examples that you mentioned of things that you did at Uber, you talked about sort of standardizing on, on spring. 208 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:36,320 Um, and I guess, so then, you know, sort of like looking at your career transition from Uber over to now, Tanzu specifically has a, a very, very big focus on, on spring. 209 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:44,560 And, and, and, and, uh, it has had this intention for a while and a continued intention to make Tanzu, you know, sort of the best platform to run spring on. 210 00:27:44,660 --> 00:27:44,800 Right. 211 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,300 Um, so I guess, yeah. 212 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:57,300 So what, I guess, was that part of your interest in, in coming over to Broadcom and how do you see that, um, I guess, how do you see making it, making that impact here? 213 00:27:58,120 --> 00:27:58,600 Yeah. 214 00:27:58,780 --> 00:28:01,700 Um, I mean, thanks, uh, thanks for bringing this up. 215 00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:26,600 So I, um, uh, so what we did, uh, uh, at Uber and, you know, running, learnings from, uh, running the product management for developer platform, um, it's very much applicable to all our customers, uh, because the, the challenges that, uh, uh, any large scale software business is facing. 216 00:28:26,820 --> 00:28:28,820 So, um, they're all, they're all same challenges. 217 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,480 How do I keep my, uh, builds fast? 218 00:28:32,860 --> 00:28:35,540 How do I, uh, manage my dependencies? 219 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:45,180 How do I make sure that, uh, I don't create new incidents as I, uh, try to move fast and deploy more frequently? 220 00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:51,280 Um, how do I run my platform in a more efficient way? 221 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:59,360 These are all, uh, challenges that are applicable to any, any business and assuming that every business is a software business. 222 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:11,240 Um, so, you know, I think, uh, we are, you know, with, with, with Spring, uh, our goal is to, uh, help out. 223 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:27,860 Now, now we are in a, in a, in a, in a position to, uh, apply some of these, uh, best practices, help our customers, uh, run their, uh, platform engineering teams, uh, in a more efficient way. 224 00:29:27,860 --> 00:29:38,700 And, and, and, and what we do with, uh, the Spring, we are really excited about the capabilities that, uh, we would like to bring for the Spring developers. 225 00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:44,860 So there, uh, you know, uh, you know, majority of the enterprise Java apps, uh, are, are Spring apps. 226 00:29:45,460 --> 00:29:56,480 And now, uh, we, we, we, we also have a lot of data about what, what are the biggest pain points of, of, of, of these, uh, uh, these, these developers. 227 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:15,800 And one of the areas that I would like to highlight is, you know, upgrades and, uh, you know, the, uh, older versions of, uh, Spring libraries and the dependencies still existing in the code base and the security, potential security vulnerabilities that they might have. 228 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:31,000 So, uh, uh, even though we are doing a great job, uh, upgrading, providing new updates with, with Spring, you know, we, but we are hearing from our customers are, they're, they're still running the older version, versions of these, these libraries. 229 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:45,780 And one of the areas that we are excited about is to help them, uh, keep their applications, uh, up to date so that they can gain the performance benefits and they can run their applications more securely. 230 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:46,980 in a compliant way. 231 00:30:46,980 --> 00:31:07,640 So, uh, you know, what, what makes me excited is, you know, we are, uh, working on some, uh, cool features to help our customers maintain their code base, basically keep them continuously upgrade, help them continuously upgrade their, their applications. 232 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:15,780 And that's, that's an area that, uh, I think we hinted at, uh, uh, before that, that we are actively working on. 233 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:23,800 And I'm really excited about, uh, uh, solving this, uh, this, this dependency upgrade challenge for, for our customers. 234 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:36,640 Of course, this is just one of many, you know, performance is, is, is another area improving the performance of running, uh, uh, stateless services with Java Spring. 235 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:45,640 Um, and, uh, there, there, there are, there are several, several others that we can, we can chat more about in the, in the upcoming talks. 236 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:46,640 Yeah. 237 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:59,640 I mean, I'd love to hear, cause I, I was looking, um, at a slide deck that you presented at a conference, um, I don't know exactly how long ago it was, but I know you've also done work on generative AI in the software, uh, supply chain. 238 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,640 So I guess does that, does that fit into your vision at VMware as well, at, uh, Broadcom as well? 239 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,640 Yeah, absolutely. 240 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:21,640 I mean, generative AI, because of the, uh, uh, the capabilities of large language models work really well for natural languages as well as programming languages. 241 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:34,640 And, uh, you know, originally we all, we, we were all, uh, trying to understand what are the risks of, you know, using generative AI in, in, in our business. 242 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:47,640 And then, you know, developer productivity, since it's internal, it's not really, uh, impacting, uh, customer facing, uh, functions. 243 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:58,640 So it's a great area where, uh, you can apply generative AI because, uh, again, you know, you can still experiment and see the, uh, see the impact. 244 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:24,640 And, uh, and, and, and there's a consensus in the industry that by, uh, start by, by leveraging the generative AI technologies, like whether it's co-pilot, like in, during your inner loop, uh, writing code, editing code, uh, or automatically generating test cases or doing large scale code refactorings. 245 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,640 Like in, uh, in our example, this is one, one thing that we want to, we want to be able to do. 246 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:44,640 We want to help our customers, uh, keep their spring applications up to date and generative AI becomes a critical, uh, tool to do that in a more efficient way, in a more productive way. 247 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:56,640 Uh, and it becomes the next step after these rule-based approaches, uh, uh, updating, updating, updating all that code and refactoring them. 248 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:57,640 Amazing. 249 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:06,640 So I'm really, very much excited, but I mean, I mean, we can talk a lot more about how, where, where else you can apply a generative AI in your software development lifecycle. 250 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,640 That's, that's, that's a, that's a topic on in itself. 251 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:20,640 Um, yeah, I saw, yeah, the, I, I mean, I guess I'm, I'm most interested in the ones that maybe you think that as Broadcom, we actually have a possibility of bringing to our customers. 252 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,640 So, I mean, I hear you talking about dependency upgrades. 253 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,640 I mean, the dependency upgrades definitely for our customers. 254 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,640 You've mentioned using Gen AI, of course, encoding and generating test cases and refactoring. 255 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,640 I don't know. 256 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:38,640 Uh, maybe the dependency upgrades is the, is the one that we, that most fits in with our tool suite. 257 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,640 But yeah, like, I, I guess that would be my cure. 258 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,640 My biggest curiosity would be like, where, where can we as a company use this to help our own customers? 259 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:47,640 Absolutely. 260 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:48,640 Yeah. 261 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:57,640 So Tanzu spring runtime is, uh, is our commercial product, uh, for our enterprise, uh, customers. 262 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:06,640 And it gives you a, uh, long-term, uh, support for your spring, uh, uh, spring applications. 263 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,640 So you can, you have a little bit, you have more time to upgrade. 264 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:27,640 And it also has a lot of commercial differentiated features, uh, with, uh, spring data flow and, uh, spring cloud gateway, um, as well as it includes, uh, JDK and, and support for things like Tomcat. 265 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:46,640 So the, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, but our vision is, uh, uh, to add more capabilities into, uh, uh, Tanzu spring, uh, runtime to help our customers keep their, uh, spring applications updated. 266 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:47,640 All the time. 267 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:48,640 All the time. 268 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:58,640 And, you know, our first, uh, uh, uh, initial approach is to, uh, uh, it was, uh, a rule-based approach to help them upgrade. 269 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:10,640 But then eventually generative AI, uh, would, uh, would be, uh, the way to compliment and even, uh, take it to the next level. 270 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,640 Uh, if you, if you think about that. 271 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:13,640 So that's exciting. 272 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:20,640 Um, I mean, I'm really excited to hear this, uh, that Tanzu spring runtime has, uh, has a bright future with these really exciting, uh, features. 273 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:33,640 And I know there was one other, I know that we, uh, that was just released this week that we've been trying to, uh, to, uh, highlight, which is the spring health assessment, uh, tool that produces a health assessment report for your application. 274 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,640 So, and I know that's been under your purview as well. 275 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,640 So I guess what's, uh, are you, how excited are you about that? 276 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:39,640 How's that going for you? 277 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:40,640 What do you see there? 278 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,640 What should customers know? 279 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,640 Thanks for bringing this up. 280 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,640 We're really excited about, uh, uh, spring health assessment. 281 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,640 This is a free service that we offer to our customers. 282 00:36:53,640 --> 00:37:00,640 Uh, I think you should all go try, uh, search for, uh, Tanzu spring health assessment. 283 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,640 It really takes, uh, uh, less than a minute to, to run it. 284 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:12,640 Basically what it does is, uh, you, uh, you run your Maven, uh, dependencies, you generate the dependency tree. 285 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:18,640 And we are only interested in those spring libraries and, uh, you, uh, file with that, you upload that file. 286 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:27,640 And you, uh, end up with a report that shows you your current support status with all your spring libraries. 287 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:32,640 And also it highlights the security vulnerabilities in them. 288 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:53,640 So kind of gives you a guide guidance, uh, on, uh, uh, on your next steps, basically help you bring awareness around the support status, the, uh, security vulnerabilities and, uh, my upgrade effort, uh, involved with, uh, to keep your, uh, application updated. 289 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:59,640 How do you, uh, upgrade effort when you, I've seen the reports coming out of, uh, spring cloud health assessment. 290 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:12,640 And as you say, they mentioned support vulnerabilities and, and very interestingly, yeah, like they measure the effort it's going to take for you to improve the security posture, I guess, and the supportability of your app. 291 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:13,640 How do you measure that? 292 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:27,640 It's really, uh, uh, uh, at this point, it's really, uh, like a t-shirt size, uh, approach, low, medium, high, you know, we, uh, measuring it, uh, in a more accurate way. 293 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,640 Uh, maybe misleading or, uh, could, uh, result in inaccuracies. 294 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:42,640 Uh, our high level approach is to look at the difference from between where you are today and, uh, and, uh, what, what the latest version is. 295 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:49,640 And of course, uh, major versions and how many, uh, uh, releases in between. 296 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,640 So that's, that's a, that's really a high level estimate at this point. 297 00:38:54,640 --> 00:39:23,640 And if I sort of put together a few of the things that you've said, uh, it's, I, I would make the assumption and you can tell me if it's a good assumption or not, but that from a commercial point of view with Tanzu spring runtime, something like the output of this, uh, health assessment would be used with Gen AI to then help automate, uh, the incorporation of these, of what you find into your code, uh, in a more automated way. 298 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:24,640 Gen AI. 299 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:32,640 So our vision, uh, our vision for Tanzu spring runtime is to do this at scale, uh, for multiple projects. 300 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:44,640 So for all, all your spring applications, you want to be able to, you want to be able to show you bring real time visibility into, uh, your support status and, uh, and security vulnerabilities associated in those apps. 301 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:52,640 And then also take, take, take, take, take it to the next step and automatically upgrade those applications in an ongoing basis. 302 00:39:52,640 --> 00:40:12,640 Um, you know, that, that upgrade approach, uh, uh, our initial approach will be a rule-based approach, but that's where we are, uh, looking at leveraging, uh, large language models to help, uh, making those refactor, refactorings, uh, uh, more, more efficient and, uh, automatic. 303 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:13,640 Amazing. 304 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:14,640 Amazing. 305 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:15,640 Amazing. 306 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:16,640 Okay. 307 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:25,640 So, so spring health assessment report for a free tool that can help you understand the support status and the vulnerabilities in your application. 308 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:38,640 And for larger organizations that want to do this at scale, uh, with support and, and kind of stay up to date and have access to additional features that, that Broadcom would be developing with large language models and things like that. 309 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,640 Then definitely, uh, so spring runtime would be more appropriate for that. 310 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,640 It's a summary, I guess. 311 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,640 And, and, and just, I mean, just one last question. 312 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:57,640 Uh, like, um, do you, in, in your experience, does like upgrading things fit into what the platform tools group is responsible for? 313 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,640 Like, where does that like fall? 314 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:00,640 Cause I don't know. 315 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,640 It's, it's not immediately clear to me at least. 316 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:05,640 Absolutely. 317 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:18,640 Um, you know, I think, uh, within our developer, uh, in the developer platform team for each language, there would be a separate monorepo and framework team. 318 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:26,640 Um, those teams maintain, uh, the, the, the monorepos and is, and I'm just talking about not everybody uses monorepo. 319 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:36,640 I, I do understand that, uh, when you don't have a monorepo, the, the handling dependencies and all the, all those upgrades become even much, much harder. 320 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:44,640 Uh, but even, uh, when you have an efficient structure like that, everywhere, everything is standardized. 321 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:55,640 Uh, I would, I would suggest that, you know, it would take a team of two, three engineers, uh, a couple of months to upgrade from one version to another. 322 00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:02,640 And you think about all those, all the, you know, places where you, where you need to make your code change. 323 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:13,640 I would say that it's one of the things that I think that I get the most when, uh, if I'm ever showing our Tanzu application product, uh, Tanzu application platform to people. 324 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:19,640 And they see the supply chain that takes your code, you know, builds it, tests it, scans it, whatever. 325 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:28,640 Uh, one of the, one of the most common questions is like, if the scan produces vulnerabilities, obviously the supply chain will stop. 326 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:42,640 But then like, then what, you know, like who, who takes action and how, and you know, all I can say is, well, if it's, if it, if it's because if the vulnerability comes from the OS or the runtime, then the platform team who's supplying those components would take care of it. 327 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:48,640 And if it's coming from your palm file or a gradle file or, or whatever your NPA, what your, you know, your application dependencies. 328 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,640 And that has to go back to the developer because they're the one who has to update the dependencies. 329 00:42:52,640 --> 00:43:02,640 But this is really taking that and saying like the platform itself can simply, uh, automate that and just make, you know, maybe make a pull request and that gets tested and confirmed. 330 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:09,640 And it's completely just a seamless part of the, in the same way we do that actually with, um, with container builds, right? 331 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:14,640 Like if, if, um, the OS is upgraded, then the container is regenerated by the platform. 332 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:20,640 And so we're basically saying we can take that to the code level, um, and automate that whole process. 333 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:21,640 Yeah. 334 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:22,640 I mean, that's our goal. 335 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:23,640 Yeah. 336 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:24,640 I mean, that's our goal. 337 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,640 Basically, um, when you think about, uh, upgrading. 338 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:39,640 So our vision is we would like to not just create tickets, uh, you know, in, in the old days, or, you know, it may still be, uh, the norm for many organizations. 339 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:51,640 When you have a central, uh, form engineering team, a lot of times we generate tickets in, uh, automatically generate tickets by running some program, let's say a, at large scale. 340 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,640 And that's how we would deal with security vulnerabilities. 341 00:43:54,640 --> 00:44:03,640 And at the end of the day, you expect those individual product teams, owners of those microservices to go and fix those, uh, uh, issues. 342 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:10,640 And then, but of course, and then you also have these teams of, uh, technical program managers chasing down these, these teams. 343 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,640 Teams have their own priorities, product pressures, right? 344 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:18,640 They, they, they're at the end of the day, there's multiple priorities that they're chasing down. 345 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,640 So the, the goal here is, you know, let's take it to the next level. 346 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:31,640 Let's create a, a PR or a merge request where everything is validated and, uh, and, and, and verified. 347 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:38,640 So, and just the, then it, it's just a matter of reviewing those changes and, and, and approving them. 348 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:45,640 So we're trying to minimize the work that, uh, uh, the, these product teams would, would need to do. 349 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:53,640 And that's our, uh, approach, uh, that, that we are taking with Tanzu spring runtime in, in the upcoming versions. 350 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,640 Uh, when we introduce this feature. 351 00:44:55,640 --> 00:45:12,640 I just like, I have, like, I mean, you know, probably smarter minds than me have already thought of this, but you just made me think of a future where, you know, you also mentioned code, uh, like code, code refactoring or code reviews, uh, that are now manual and require, you know, eyes on code. 352 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:17,640 If a code review could be automated via LLM and recommendations about code quality could be automated. 353 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:28,640 And then those could be sort of, you know, a person could review them to see if they agree or not, but at least we could use even LLM for, for code quality improvements. 354 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:30,640 Oh, absolutely. 355 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:37,640 I mean, these are the areas where, um, people are experimenting, applying, uh, uh, generative AI. 356 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:47,640 Uh, you know, we, uh, I worked on a project where, uh, we took the, uh, comments from, uh, code reviewers. 357 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:57,640 And based on that, we automatically created the next revision, uh, that basically it's really not, not fully automating things. 358 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:06,640 Uh, uh, not, uh, but it's, it's an incremental, uh, step towards there as we gain more confidence with generative AI. 359 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:07,640 Generative AI. 360 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,640 And, and, and, and, and such tools. 361 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,640 So basically, okay. 362 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:26,640 It's made a comment, but then rather than the author making that change, you know, the, the bot automatically takes that comment and, uh, creates a new revision, understanding, understanding the code. 363 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:33,640 And, and, and the changes as well as the, the, the comment, and then creating that next, next revision based on that understanding. 364 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:40,640 And these are, uh, these are things that, uh, others are, are also playing with or, or, or doing. 365 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:46,640 So I'm really excited about the future, uh, of future of, uh, software development. 366 00:46:46,640 --> 00:47:09,640 You know, it's really exciting times, uh, where, you know, developers will be more focused on, uh, more business critical application logic and have these, some of these simpler tedious tasks by, uh, by automated tools powered by generative AI. 367 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:10,640 Yeah. 368 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:11,640 Yeah. 369 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:12,640 Amazing. 370 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:26,640 I think, I, I think you've said this, uh, really, uh, optimistic and, and, um, exciting view of all of the opportunities to, um, really leverage, like make the most of, of a platform like, like spring. 371 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,640 And really like really milk it and advance it. 372 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,640 And, and, and because generally I feel like we wait for spring to give to us, right? 373 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,640 The spring team produces great things and then we use them. 374 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:41,640 But here are all these ways that we can contribute to make spring better, um, from a, from a different angle. 375 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,640 I think that's a really, it's a wonderful thing to see that ecosystem growing in this direction. 376 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:47,640 Thank you. 377 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:48,640 Yeah. 378 00:47:48,640 --> 00:48:03,640 Uh, and Coté, I, I just want to say one thing that, um, you know, since we talked a lot about generative AI and building generative AI applications, if you haven't given a shot, uh, to, uh, spring AI, uh, you should, uh, play with it. 379 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,640 You should try, uh, this, this project. 380 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:16,640 Our goal there is to help enterprise Java developers, uh, add generative AI capabilities to their, their applications. 381 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:17,640 And it's great. 382 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:23,640 And we are getting a lot of feedback from users and, uh, iterating quickly on those. 383 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,640 So please, uh, give it a try. 384 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,640 Uh, take a look at spring AI. 385 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,640 Uh, it makes it easier for you to interact with LLMs. 386 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:37,640 And, uh, spring data is already great and getting all the data sources. 387 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:45,640 So, and we also have embedding models and, uh, you know, whatever RectorDB that you, you, you may want to use. 388 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:56,640 So it's a great solution, a glue, so to speak, uh, that would, uh, accelerate your adoption of generative AI in the enterprise Java application space. 389 00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:58,640 So please give it a shot. 390 00:48:58,640 --> 00:48:59,640 Amazing. 391 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,640 I feel like I'm going to, I'm going to do that right after we hang up. 392 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:02,640 Well, thanks for being on. 393 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:03,640 It was really fun talking with you. 394 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:04,640 Uh, that, that was enjoyable. 395 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:18,640 Do you, do you have, uh, you know, if people are interested in, uh, well, you know, Cora mentioned a presentation you gave and other things like that, but do you have some little home on the worldwide web that you would send people to, to check things out? 396 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:19,640 Um, I personally do not. 397 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:36,640 Um, I personally do not, but I would prefer, um, if, uh, you know, uh, if you're, you, I'm sure you're all familiar with, uh, Spring IO website, uh, as well as our, uh, Tanzu, uh, Spring page that we, we are keeping, uh, up to date all the time. 398 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,640 So, uh, follow us there. 399 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:49,640 And we also have your team is a great team, which, uh, provide a lot of, uh, uh, help and, uh, guidance to Spring developers. 400 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:55,640 Uh, the Sean and Josh and, and, and, and you guys are awesome. 401 00:49:55,640 --> 00:50:00,640 And thanks for, uh, doing this and keeping, uh, the community alive. 402 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:01,640 Well, that's good. 403 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,640 That's always good to have a, uh, recommendation for our own team as well. 404 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:05,640 So I appreciate it. 405 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:06,640 Well, good. 406 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:12,640 Well, as, as, uh, as, uh, as always, my daughter would like to remind you that this has been Tanzu talk. 407 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,640 Uh, if you want to get the show notes for this, you can go to Tanzu talk.com. 408 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:23,640 And, uh, you know, I got to wrap it up cause I need to blow up the surgical glove for my daughter's entertainment and we'll see everyone next time. 409 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:24,640 Bye bye. 410 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:55,620 Thank you.