1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,240 Well, why don't you introduce yourself? 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,360 Hello, Betty Junod. 3 00:00:05,500 --> 00:00:11,340 I am the vice president of product marketing here at VMware, looking after the modern apps 4 00:00:11,340 --> 00:00:12,560 and management group. 5 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:18,660 And, you know, you've got a nice background, as we'll get into in working in the tech world, 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,400 as I have myself for quite some time. 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,420 And we were talking about, I had run into some people from John Deere. 8 00:00:27,220 --> 00:00:28,180 Where was I? 9 00:00:28,180 --> 00:00:30,060 In DevOps days, Des Moines, of course. 10 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,200 Where else would you run into them just traipsing around? 11 00:00:34,820 --> 00:00:42,380 And they had an impressive presentation about their, I want to say, like three or four year, 12 00:00:42,580 --> 00:00:46,620 like at least introducing Agile to the way that they were doing software. 13 00:00:47,340 --> 00:00:50,660 I think they're cool and they say Deere, right? 14 00:00:50,780 --> 00:00:51,700 Instead of John Deere. 15 00:00:52,100 --> 00:00:53,340 But over there at John Deere. 16 00:00:53,920 --> 00:01:01,140 And so, and then I found out that they were working on some IT revolution stuff that you 17 00:01:01,140 --> 00:01:01,500 knew about. 18 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:07,200 They asked, this is the only time this has ever happened where, you know, you, you, you currently 19 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,360 and in the past, you know, I used to work at Dell. 20 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:10,380 You work at big companies. 21 00:01:10,380 --> 00:01:15,140 You tell people you work somewhere and they're like, do you know this one person out of a 22 00:01:15,140 --> 00:01:16,240 hundred thousand people? 23 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,660 And you're like, no, normally no. 24 00:01:20,020 --> 00:01:22,320 But for once, for once he asked if I knew you. 25 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,060 And I was like, I know, I know her. 26 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:25,760 This is the first time that that's happened. 27 00:01:25,820 --> 00:01:26,540 It's very exciting. 28 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,980 And you wouldn't have thought that that would happen in Iowa of all places. 29 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,240 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 30 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,280 There's a lot going on in Iowa, apparently. 31 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,740 But so, so we, we were just talking about the, the John Deere stuff. 32 00:01:37,740 --> 00:01:41,600 And then you, you brought up, you brought up a topic that, that's, I was just talking 33 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:47,680 with someone about this earlier today, which, which is, is it's, it seems like it's, I don't 34 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,200 know, maybe it's talked about enough, but not listened to enough. 35 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,420 Is that, is that the parent in me coming through? 36 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:59,180 Uh, but, but just the idea of like, especially in our area of like, you know, we're interested 37 00:01:59,180 --> 00:02:02,920 in people doing better at software, whether they're building it or running it. 38 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,760 And, uh, we work with large organizations and boy, they seem ambitious. 39 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,260 They, they, they tend to have like really big plans about like the way that I jokingly always 40 00:02:13,260 --> 00:02:16,800 put it as like, you know, they're going to, uh, they're going to migrate 80% of their 41 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,620 applications, uh, by next year, uh, just, just from a complete standstill. 42 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,360 Um, but that doesn't seem wise. 43 00:02:24,980 --> 00:02:30,200 And so, you know, you, and everyone's been saying that every year. 44 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,640 So we're kind of like how many percentages of apps are there now? 45 00:02:34,020 --> 00:02:34,460 Exactly. 46 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:34,920 Yeah. 47 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,840 I, I always think it'd be great to, uh, you know, I, I don't know if you saw it, but there 48 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,620 was, uh, Benedict Evans put together a, a fun chart of like, let's go to the, let's go 49 00:02:43,620 --> 00:02:48,880 to the Goldman Sachs, uh, CIO surveys for the past 10 years and see what percentage of 50 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,640 applications CIOs are going to move to the cloud each year. 51 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:57,440 And I think it's, it's pretty much, it's always like, yep, we're going to move like 30% by 52 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,040 next year for, for the last however many years. 53 00:03:00,260 --> 00:03:01,180 And are we there yet? 54 00:03:01,420 --> 00:03:03,980 I don't, not, not, not in all cases. 55 00:03:04,140 --> 00:03:04,320 Yeah. 56 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:05,120 Exactly. 57 00:03:05,820 --> 00:03:11,780 Funny enough, uh, Coté is that, let's see, three years ago, my first forum, um, IT revolution 58 00:03:11,780 --> 00:03:15,640 paper that I worked on, um, was called no app left behind. 59 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:21,860 It was about the, the, how you can get a hundred percent, a hundred percent move to the cloud. 60 00:03:21,860 --> 00:03:27,240 But as part of the paper, we said, you know, don't be dogmatic about it. 61 00:03:27,620 --> 00:03:27,900 Yeah. 62 00:03:28,220 --> 00:03:29,540 The, the secret is time. 63 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:30,880 Time. 64 00:03:32,220 --> 00:03:32,660 Yeah. 65 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:34,120 Infinite time. 66 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:34,500 Yes. 67 00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:39,500 It's, it's like really reality's proprietary technology that, uh, you can rely on. 68 00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:44,020 And, and then, and then you brought up, you know, you brought up the point of, uh, in, 69 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,520 in this, this discussion we were having is that people bring up a lot in, in a good way 70 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:55,020 is like, it's good to start small, like, you know, start, start with a, uh, uh, uh, you know, 71 00:03:55,100 --> 00:04:00,040 one doesn't want to scale back their expectations of awesomeness, but you do want to, uh, match 72 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:00,640 to reality. 73 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,480 And so that's, that's with my lengthy setup there. 74 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,500 That's, that's the, the first thing is like, I mean, I, I talk about starting small all the 75 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:12,140 time person I was talking to earlier today, you know, and so forth, but like, it does seem 76 00:04:12,140 --> 00:04:18,360 like, how do you sort of explain what small is to, especially like these organizations who 77 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,560 are like, you know, uh, I've come in here as executive whatnot. 78 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,940 And my mission is to, uh, transform everything. 79 00:04:25,940 --> 00:04:29,540 Like how, how do you kind of like scope down to like a good smallness? 80 00:04:30,220 --> 00:04:30,620 Yeah. 81 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:35,440 And you know, what's funny is like, we've seen this pattern repeat over and over and over 82 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,120 again, every time there's kind of a new, new technology thing, right. 83 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,620 New abstraction layer, new tooling come out. 84 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:47,380 Um, and I think it's, you know, there's within our, what we are doing today within this kind 85 00:04:47,380 --> 00:04:49,040 of like software development space. 86 00:04:49,340 --> 00:04:56,080 Um, it's kind of like you start with a application or a type of application pattern, a workload 87 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,200 type and kind of solve for that. 88 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:07,000 Um, and then that being, um, you know, kind of how you scope small, like I don't, I, I hear 89 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:07,140 you. 90 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,000 I feel like many leaders sometimes will see small as a negative, right? 91 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:17,700 Like maybe they're not paying high enough, but, um, I heard some, um, I remember talking 92 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:22,580 to one, a platform leader at a, uh, at a pretty innovative retail company saying, you know, 93 00:05:22,580 --> 00:05:26,880 what they did is they focused on a specific use case and that use case needed to address. 94 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,440 Um, it was like a, the use case is a pattern that addressed a certain type of applications 95 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,440 and there was enough of them in the organization. 96 00:05:33,740 --> 00:05:39,960 So start to see patterns and then you group things, you know, into like buckets of like, 97 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:46,240 and that's the small, um, in that it's, it's, I guess instead of like small from a size, 98 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,140 it's more small in like a focus. 99 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:49,140 Right, right. 100 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:50,820 Like, like a slice of things. 101 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:51,320 Yeah. 102 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,140 Like very, like, I want to solve for this type of thing. 103 00:05:54,580 --> 00:05:57,260 And then once I've done that, then I go to the next thing. 104 00:05:58,180 --> 00:06:03,220 Yeah, no, I mean that, that, that, that, that, that's a good version of small, right? 105 00:06:03,260 --> 00:06:08,260 Like in, in that, especially if like, like when I talk about people with doing things in 106 00:06:08,260 --> 00:06:12,960 a small way, it seems like one of the primary reasons to do it is like, and this is another, 107 00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:17,000 you know, I always like to put things in these jokey terms, but like, it's also like, 108 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,780 well, you kind of don't know what you're doing, so it's good to try it out a little 109 00:06:20,780 --> 00:06:26,080 bit at first and, or, or you want to have a, a learning approach to it, right. 110 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,580 Where you're kind of like figuring things out as you go along. 111 00:06:28,580 --> 00:06:33,960 And it, it is like the, with the idea of, of like, whether it's picking like one or two, 112 00:06:34,100 --> 00:06:40,060 just like projects or applications, or like, there's also an idea of a, what did they used 113 00:06:40,060 --> 00:06:40,880 to call it in scrum? 114 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:45,880 Like a spike, like, like some kind of thing, like a slice that goes, that goes all the way 115 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,040 down from some angle. 116 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,900 So you can test out like what happens at like the UI layer and then like the, the kind of 117 00:06:52,900 --> 00:06:57,100 ops layer, something that allows you to test all these different things to kind of learn 118 00:06:57,100 --> 00:06:58,520 by going through it that way. 119 00:06:59,020 --> 00:07:04,700 Cause it's like, you can never plan for all the permeations, deviations, or whatever in 120 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:09,000 like the, the dependencies until you go through the exercise once. 121 00:07:09,700 --> 00:07:16,440 Maybe a non-tech example is before you bake like a seven tier wedding cake for like a massive 122 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:21,360 celebrity wedding, maybe we can try it, a birthday cake for baking a birthday cake for 123 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:21,800 your kids. 124 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:22,440 You know what I mean? 125 00:07:22,700 --> 00:07:22,980 Sure. 126 00:07:23,140 --> 00:07:27,580 Is that, is that from personal experience from your celebrity cake catering company? 127 00:07:27,700 --> 00:07:33,380 No, I've never done the celebrity cake pairing, but you know, it's, it's like, we've got to 128 00:07:33,380 --> 00:07:34,280 build on our skills, right? 129 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:39,500 Before you can, you know, um, do calculus, you got to like learn algebra or learn addition, 130 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:40,680 like get your tables done. 131 00:07:40,900 --> 00:07:44,060 So, um, I think that applies in our tech stuff too. 132 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,560 Like you don't know what's missing. 133 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:52,580 If you're going to try something wholly new until you kind of try it out in a, in a, in a 134 00:07:52,580 --> 00:07:55,280 smaller scale, like a defined focused scale. 135 00:07:55,700 --> 00:07:55,980 Yeah. 136 00:07:56,060 --> 00:08:02,120 Kind of like a, uh, uh, some boundaries, uh, a, a sandbox as they used to say. 137 00:08:02,180 --> 00:08:06,740 And now, now like, like you, you know, you, you've been in like a, uh, uh, executive role 138 00:08:06,740 --> 00:08:07,360 for a while. 139 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:13,180 And, and like the, so that's like, you know, the other angle of like digital transformation 140 00:08:13,180 --> 00:08:17,960 or just getting better at software is like actually changing the way people work and what 141 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,400 the organization looks like. 142 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:25,060 And like, so you, you, I mean, I mean, I've, we've been around to VMware together for long 143 00:08:25,060 --> 00:08:31,620 enough that like, you've, you've seen through several like organizational changes, right. 144 00:08:31,620 --> 00:08:33,720 And like here and at other places. 145 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:41,300 And so like, when it comes to like managing how you change the work process around, like, 146 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,860 is it also a helpful to start small or like what, you know, regardless of what you end up 147 00:08:45,860 --> 00:08:50,840 having to do, what, what do you think the ideal way of going about, uh, about it is? 148 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:51,500 Yeah. 149 00:08:51,540 --> 00:08:57,500 Because like, as we know, the changing the way people do things is like, that's the hardest 150 00:08:57,500 --> 00:08:57,940 part. 151 00:08:57,940 --> 00:09:02,800 I mean, the whole agile, like when we talk about agile and DevOps, well, as an example, 152 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:08,980 it's the, there's a bazillion tools out there that do these things, but it's the, it's the 153 00:09:08,980 --> 00:09:09,800 way people work. 154 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:10,280 Right. 155 00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:15,500 And it's the process, the interaction between humans, um, the processes, that's the biggest 156 00:09:15,500 --> 00:09:15,780 thing. 157 00:09:15,780 --> 00:09:22,100 And, you know, if we look at VMware, um, even, um, there's been a lot of evolution 158 00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:23,400 we've done within the team. 159 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:24,280 Right. 160 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:29,800 Um, and instead of wholly saying like, Hey, everybody in the team, we're going to do this 161 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:31,380 other thing starting tomorrow. 162 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:32,980 And we will all do it this way. 163 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:38,800 Forget how you've been doing everything for, you know, months or years and how you've talked 164 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,980 to, you know, your, your, your, your, your teammate on X, Y, Z. 165 00:09:42,220 --> 00:09:48,760 Um, it is also, even in that sense, it makes sense to say, pick a project or pick some, here's 166 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,280 a, here's a new project or new launch or new, whatever. 167 00:09:51,620 --> 00:09:52,020 Yeah. 168 00:09:52,580 --> 00:09:57,440 And say like, let's, with this, we now have an opportunity to try it this other way. 169 00:09:57,660 --> 00:09:59,400 Let's implement a different system. 170 00:09:59,580 --> 00:10:02,220 Let's do our collaboration differently. 171 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:07,460 Let's, you know, do our planning and actual execution on that, on that, um, project in 172 00:10:07,460 --> 00:10:10,020 a new way to define a new way to work together. 173 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:15,480 And then that, then you take that and say like, now let's try that on the next thing 174 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,720 or an existing project. 175 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:17,960 Right. 176 00:10:18,020 --> 00:10:19,900 That's, um, yeah. 177 00:10:19,980 --> 00:10:24,540 Like evolutions like that, they don't happen, you know, it's, they don't happen overnight. 178 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:25,220 They can't. 179 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:26,340 Right. 180 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:26,520 Right. 181 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,520 You can't just go into the factory and, uh, install new machines overnight and then, uh, 182 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:36,080 plug them in and have things running as nice as that would be for some, some things. 183 00:10:36,380 --> 00:10:40,460 Uh, but, uh, like, so, so, you know, as you're saying, like you, you, 184 00:10:40,460 --> 00:10:44,800 kind of move on to the next one and like, how do you, how do you like, whether you're 185 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,720 talking with people, you know, you do a lot of work with, uh, uh, you know, as you were 186 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,000 saying, these papers with, uh, with it revolution and stuff, and, and you work on several of 187 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,840 the, the groups there, what do they call them? 188 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,680 Uh, not, not think tanks or think groups or working groups, or what's the name of like 189 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:01,020 the little clusters of people? 190 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,160 Um, they're called the, um, what's called the DevOps enterprise forum. 191 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:10,420 And so those happen, uh, separately, um, uh, in a separate cycle. 192 00:11:10,420 --> 00:11:15,840 And typically it's people who've spoken at the summit events, um, which is where like, 193 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:20,480 you know, John Deere and, you know, like Fannie Mae, other U S bank folks have come and spoken 194 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,940 about either challenge they have or their transformation. 195 00:11:23,140 --> 00:11:27,920 Then those, then they often champion, um, the, uh, paper on that topic. 196 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,880 And then the forum meets, uh, forum will meet once a year. 197 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,500 And then we have like a multi-day workshop and it's like, you have working groups at each, 198 00:11:36,500 --> 00:11:38,720 like there's teams that write these papers. 199 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,920 So, um, it's a mix of folks in the industry. 200 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,600 It's, it's been a really rewarding, professionally rewarding experience. 201 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:53,120 Cause one year, uh, my team, the team I was on had like someone from, it's like three different 202 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:53,640 vendors. 203 00:11:53,980 --> 00:11:54,280 Right. 204 00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:58,140 Uh, and we were all, you know, outside of that room, we were all like competitors. 205 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:03,780 So we had three vendors and like two or three like end user companies and we were all sitting 206 00:12:03,780 --> 00:12:09,420 writing something, um, to have to, that has like shared value to the industry. 207 00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:15,200 Like, and we're not sitting there, um, selling our products, but just kind of bringing our 208 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:16,380 collective knowledge together. 209 00:12:16,380 --> 00:12:20,260 So that that's, it's, that's kind of a unique and interesting experience. 210 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,180 Yeah, exactly. 211 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,680 Like I, I, uh, uh, I looked through the platform paper that, that you worked on. 212 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:32,180 I think it was, it was purely about platform marketing, if I remember, or just, uh, yeah, 213 00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:32,500 yeah, yeah, yeah. 214 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:37,960 Last year was, um, the developer platform and it was, it was, um, it was not about the tech 215 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:38,260 part. 216 00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:43,720 There was another team that worked on the, um, uh, how to like, um, set up from a technical 217 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,700 capabilities perspective, like define it. 218 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,500 Ours was like, just beyond the technology. 219 00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:51,880 How do you make sure it actually works? 220 00:12:52,260 --> 00:12:52,700 Yeah. 221 00:12:52,780 --> 00:12:53,080 Yeah. 222 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,660 And, and getting people to use it, right? 223 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,680 Like that's the, uh, that's the conversation I have with platform teams. 224 00:12:57,740 --> 00:13:02,220 The most is, uh, like there's, there's one from about a year ago that I always, the one 225 00:13:02,220 --> 00:13:05,980 I always remember in my head is there's like a room full of, uh, people at a big, a big 226 00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:07,620 organization, infrastructure people. 227 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,680 And as always, there was also the mainframe person who was, who was generally delightful 228 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:15,220 because every time some question came up, the mainframe person would be like, yeah, 229 00:13:15,220 --> 00:13:24,720 that works and, uh, you know, in, in, in my domain and, and again, like the conversation 230 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,940 we had was, it happens over and over again, which is the, the infrastructure people had 231 00:13:28,940 --> 00:13:34,400 said, uh, yeah, we like, we, we stood up the Kubernetes cluster and we can't get these 232 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:35,500 developers to use it. 233 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:37,020 Like no one's using it. 234 00:13:37,020 --> 00:13:41,500 So you're telling us like all this cloud native stuff is great and we give it to the developers 235 00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:42,580 and they don't seem to care. 236 00:13:42,580 --> 00:13:43,420 So what's up with that? 237 00:13:43,420 --> 00:13:47,680 But you know, that, that, that paper kind of goes over that ongoing problem of the, uh, 238 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:53,120 I mean, I think we even have that, uh, that now, uh, whatever's milder than a cliche, a 239 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,300 common saying of like, you know, build it and they won't come or like, you know, you can't 240 00:13:57,300 --> 00:13:59,020 assume that you just, you just release it. 241 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:05,760 And so like, uh, I was asking that cause you know, you get to, when, when you work in those 242 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,720 working groups and, and, you know, also just people that you talk with, like one of the 243 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:14,360 things I'm, I'm always curious to hear stories of is as you were saying, like, or as we've 244 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,300 been saying, you kind of start small and then you do, you, you know, duplicated another team. 245 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,880 And part of that process is also like, as we keep saying, kind of like learning what works 246 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:23,680 and doesn't work. 247 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:30,840 And like, what's, what's like, what does that look like between the teams? 248 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:31,100 Right? 249 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,380 Like, is it just like, I don't know, let's document what didn't work and then tell them 250 00:14:34,380 --> 00:14:40,400 not to do that or, or like, you know, do you actually like, do you actually kind of like 251 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,840 engineer in experiments to test out ideas? 252 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:49,940 Or is it more just like seeing what happens or it, and this is almost like, it's some variation 253 00:14:49,940 --> 00:14:55,640 of like doing lean startup, you think for just like how you're programming an organization, 254 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:56,360 so to speak. 255 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,860 But it seems like it could be a lot more squishy when it comes to things you can't compile 256 00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:01,860 to, to people. 257 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:02,960 Yeah. 258 00:15:03,260 --> 00:15:10,460 Uh, and there was a, there was a, it's interesting cause I, I feel like from that prior paper to 259 00:15:10,460 --> 00:15:15,060 like this one, um, there was a, it, they're kind of connected because this year we wrote 260 00:15:15,060 --> 00:15:15,900 about business value. 261 00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:20,880 So it's like, if you do something like this, how do you define what is big or small, meaningful 262 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:21,380 enough? 263 00:15:21,380 --> 00:15:21,860 Right. 264 00:15:21,860 --> 00:15:26,700 And then how do you make sure, how do you, you know, experiment and test and prove that 265 00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:27,120 it's working? 266 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,180 And then how do you, how do you then report back what is value? 267 00:15:30,180 --> 00:15:32,580 Because everybody's concerned about ROI, right? 268 00:15:32,580 --> 00:15:35,260 So that was an interesting, um, discussion. 269 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:42,680 Um, but if I look back at, um, the, the companies, like the, uh, the technology leaders we talked 270 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,900 to like end users, people who we at VM were trying to sell our stuff to, right. 271 00:15:47,540 --> 00:15:51,520 And looked at like, um, asked them about what worked well, what didn't work well. 272 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:56,940 If they look back at their experience, the interesting thing about, I think the, the idea of starting 273 00:15:56,940 --> 00:16:04,080 small back to, it's not small from size, it's just focus, focus defines the experiment and 274 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:10,440 it helps you understand when things, when things, um, from that experiment, when things, uh, work 275 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,340 or don't work, they're controlled. 276 00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:16,840 You're, you're, you're able to like, understand what those, uh, how you have controlled variables. 277 00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:18,140 Right. 278 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:24,320 So, um, like one platform leader was talking about how, you know, they were, they set up 279 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:29,620 a new platform and then they didn't get, it was Kubernetes, Facebook, but nobody was using 280 00:16:29,620 --> 00:16:29,880 it. 281 00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:34,880 So immediately they were driven by, we just spent a ton of money on this thing and no one's 282 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:35,380 using it. 283 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:42,520 Well, it's only defined for this small scope of app, like only brand new cloud native microservices 284 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:42,940 app. 285 00:16:43,180 --> 00:16:43,480 Okay. 286 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:48,660 So what I want you to do is now be able to support legacy apps and COTS and all this stuff. 287 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,720 And then before they even understood what, if this could be successful for the apps, they, 288 00:16:53,980 --> 00:16:58,680 you know, the target, they then like Frankenstein, the solution to do more. 289 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:06,520 Now this platform has no focus and you're trying to, in many ways, it's like, you're trying 290 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,540 to address all from the beginning. 291 00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:10,200 And then they were able to address none. 292 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:11,920 Right. 293 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:12,340 Right. 294 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:12,940 Yeah. 295 00:17:13,620 --> 00:17:14,060 Focus. 296 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,060 Then you can say like, I want to, you know, focus and aligning that focus with what you 297 00:17:19,060 --> 00:17:20,540 actually have in your portfolio. 298 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:27,200 Cause the, the big thing that person learned was, um, they want, they built this like 12 factor 299 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:32,080 app, like type of platform and realize, Oh, we have nothing that's suitable for that in 300 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:32,520 our world. 301 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:33,400 Right. 302 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:33,640 Right. 303 00:17:33,660 --> 00:17:33,900 Right. 304 00:17:33,980 --> 00:17:34,040 Right. 305 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:34,260 Yeah. 306 00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:35,460 Whoopsies. 307 00:17:35,540 --> 00:17:35,740 Yeah. 308 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:36,720 Yeah. 309 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:37,680 Yeah. 310 00:17:38,060 --> 00:17:38,300 Yeah. 311 00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:42,580 And, and that gets to that, like that, you know, it's, it seems like with those initial 312 00:17:42,580 --> 00:17:47,260 projects, you do need the, uh, the kind of minimal viable product, but, but it's, it's, 313 00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:52,200 it's, it's something it's like, it's more like what you were saying is, I mean, 314 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:57,800 it's ridiculous when you say it out loud, but like you need applications that work on 315 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:03,100 the platform you just built that, that actually like, that, that actually fit to that. 316 00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:07,020 And, and I think, you know, I mean, you were going over, you know, I was, I was, uh, uh, 317 00:18:08,020 --> 00:18:11,540 you know, at the, at, in the beginning, like preamble, they're saying people tend to have 318 00:18:11,540 --> 00:18:14,240 like too big of a scope of what they want to do. 319 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:14,480 Right. 320 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:19,280 And you were just providing an example of, of that happening kind of not midway through, 321 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,900 but like right after the initial success where you're sort of like, oh, this worked now let's 322 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:24,560 do everything. 323 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:25,520 Right. 324 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:30,020 Like we've done, we've done like minimal validation to use the, the minimal word again, 325 00:18:30,020 --> 00:18:34,760 which, which it's, it's almost a variation of the same thing is you've got to kind of 326 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,460 like what you're saying is you need to figure out, well, how, you know, the business value 327 00:18:38,460 --> 00:18:42,980 of the outcome of being successful, but also at some point you have to judge. 328 00:18:43,220 --> 00:18:48,980 Now we can take on more, we can widen the focus or the scope to, to use another word. 329 00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:55,820 And this goes back to like, you know, um, the whole idea of like IT turning into like 330 00:18:55,820 --> 00:18:57,060 platform as product, right. 331 00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:58,840 IT needs to run themselves like a business. 332 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:05,240 So to that end, like, yeah, you should totally have like a big audacious goal of like, here's 333 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:05,660 my vision. 334 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,980 You know, like you're saying like the big one, I'm going to solve it all. 335 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,080 You've got a new CIO. 336 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:10,180 Like, this is amazing. 337 00:19:10,180 --> 00:19:15,800 We're going to do all this stuff, but like day one needs to like, that, that might be 338 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:16,920 like a multi-year roadmap. 339 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,800 And then you need to say, you need to say like, we will start here first because it's 340 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:27,500 aligned to this, this line of business, this population, they have these needs, they have 341 00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:28,260 these problems. 342 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:34,560 So we will do these, whatever, 10 applications as an example, it could be like some existing 343 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,980 apps, we're going to solve some problem or like, Hey, we have a new, new business, like 344 00:19:38,980 --> 00:19:40,200 new, new product. 345 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:40,840 We have to get out. 346 00:19:41,060 --> 00:19:41,320 Great. 347 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:42,840 We'll use that as our target. 348 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:48,940 Then you can say like, what we, they have to do is define like, what are some improvements 349 00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:53,020 we want to make in our business or a tech as part of this? 350 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:57,820 So that you have like, how do you know it was to your question on how do we know that 351 00:19:57,820 --> 00:19:58,960 we've done it? 352 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:00,600 That we did a good job. 353 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:02,160 That we did a good job. 354 00:20:02,260 --> 00:20:11,100 We are, we feel good that we've met our success criteria to then say, are there any more apps 355 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:11,780 like this? 356 00:20:11,780 --> 00:20:14,240 Are there any more teams that fit this pattern? 357 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:19,080 Let's, then you can, um, then you have like a good, you know, sales pitch to, you know, 358 00:20:19,100 --> 00:20:20,220 onboard more people. 359 00:20:20,980 --> 00:20:25,860 And then you can say like, okay, we've exhausted all of the ones that fit in this kind of type. 360 00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:31,720 Now let's go see like, can this platform fit or can our tool, can what we do fit other, 361 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,340 you know, what's the next type of team type of app? 362 00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:35,460 Right. 363 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,540 It seems, it seems silly when we say it out loud. 364 00:20:38,540 --> 00:20:41,140 Cause like, well, you should have like a very measured process. 365 00:20:41,220 --> 00:20:46,760 Like, you know, you set some goals, you say, you're going to address some challenges. 366 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,180 You hit these milestones, then you go to the next phase and the next phase. 367 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,840 It's, it seems a little pedantic for us to say that out loud, but it's amazing how 368 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,920 distracted we, we can, we all can get, um, in this industry. 369 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:05,040 Cause there's always a new shiny thing that eats up the like, you know, mental space of 370 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:05,460 everyone. 371 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:06,220 Yeah. 372 00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:07,300 Yeah. 373 00:21:07,420 --> 00:21:12,140 You know, I, I've, I've, I've, I've realized over the past year or so, as I've talked with, 374 00:21:12,140 --> 00:21:18,540 uh, some, some, some people that we've hired from, from industry, like our Tanzu value advisors. 375 00:21:18,540 --> 00:21:22,400 And now they help, they help, uh, large organizations we work with. 376 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:30,140 And it's, it's fun to like, see them change over to, let's see, normally, if you work at 377 00:21:30,140 --> 00:21:31,920 a large organization, let me try to get this right. 378 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:37,280 You're basically one to many towards, towards like, you know, the outside world and, and 379 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:42,320 vendors and cloud providers, but then they totally reorient that where they're like, they're 380 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,600 like one to many, but it's many different organizations they talk with. 381 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,200 And so they get to see lots of peers there. 382 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,980 And one of the things that we talk about frequently is that you have to, uh, like train yourself, 383 00:21:53,980 --> 00:21:59,360 not train yourself, but you have to be aware that like, it's totally good to say commonsensical 384 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:04,820 things because most, most people kind of, as you're saying, like they at least know it, 385 00:22:04,820 --> 00:22:07,960 but then they just don't really like always practice it. 386 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:08,320 Right. 387 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,200 Like it's, it's, it's hard and you know, it's also, it's fun when you, I don't know 388 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,320 if, if, if you have done or do this, but it's kind of fun when you're speaking to a large 389 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,080 group of people, like giving a talk and you have these little, like, you can have these 390 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,760 little probing jokes that you make. 391 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,100 Like, you know, one of them is sort of like, Hey, who, uh, who sits down at their, their, 392 00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:27,260 their standup meeting? 393 00:22:27,260 --> 00:22:29,000 Like, you know, do you actually do this? 394 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,980 And like, you know, you can see the little chuckles and like eye rolls and stuff. 395 00:22:32,980 --> 00:22:37,320 And you get this anecdotal sense of like, yes, common sense is often the most uncommon 396 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,520 one to, to, to, to go over, which, you know, I, I, I think is fair. 397 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:47,940 And, you know, it is, it is like, as a slight variation of that, like you were talking about, 398 00:22:47,940 --> 00:22:53,560 um, working on like the, the, like value creation or business value, kind of figuring that out. 399 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:53,780 Right. 400 00:22:53,780 --> 00:23:00,600 And I think there's, there's a tying up, like, did you, uh, uh, did you follow all the developer 401 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:05,960 productivity metric nerd fighting over the past month or so is fantastic. 402 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,960 There was this article that came out where, where McKinsey was trying to, they were adding 403 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,160 four ways of judging developer productivity. 404 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:18,320 And, and the wide range of, uh, you know, like engineering people got very upset about 405 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:23,860 it and, and, you know, and, and rightly so they, they, uh, uh, well, more or less rightly 406 00:23:23,860 --> 00:23:28,340 so it was kind of like the argument about bimodal it way back when, if, if you remember 407 00:23:28,340 --> 00:23:32,800 that, yeah, yeah, that one was great because I always figured the people who didn't like 408 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:38,300 bimodal it, they probably hadn't spent $5,000 to read the Gartner papers on it, but that's 409 00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:38,560 fine. 410 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,420 Anyways, to cut myself off here, instead of rambling on and on. 411 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:48,160 to hear myself talk, uh, like what that, what these new metrics are trying to pinpoint was 412 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:55,000 like identifying, trying to come up with a way to show the value that developers were 413 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,520 bringing based on the activities that they're doing. 414 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:58,120 Right. 415 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:08,160 Like, uh, uh, but it does get to this thing of like, what we would like, the ideal state 416 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:13,720 is like you, if you have it, uh, and whether it's developers or operations team people, but 417 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:19,140 you're judging based on the output, like whatever the outcome or the value is, but then that gets 418 00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:24,880 exactly to what I'm, I'm, I'm guessing the working group struggles with is like, yes, good 419 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,860 luck measuring that, right. 420 00:24:26,860 --> 00:24:33,400 Like how, how do you like, it's, it's almost this ongoing problem of like, how close can 421 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:39,420 you get to like, ah, last week, the development team was responsible for this revenue. 422 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:39,960 Right. 423 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,140 Like, and it's, it's, it's hard to tie those things together. 424 00:24:43,140 --> 00:24:49,880 So you, you come up with this web of, of causality, but I, I don't know, like what, uh, 425 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,480 is, is, is that, is that group going to solve our problems? 426 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,120 What's, what's being worked on there? 427 00:24:54,620 --> 00:24:58,860 Uh, what's, well, the papers just published, I want to say like maybe two weeks ago. 428 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:06,320 Um, just seeing in our discussions was the, a lot of talk around, oh, this, the gap between 429 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,500 what you're going to say in a boardroom or two, where you're reporting into like your C-suite, 430 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:18,240 right, those impact of the different functional teams to like what maybe an engineering manager 431 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,040 is actually measuring because the gap is broad. 432 00:25:21,180 --> 00:25:23,000 Like, yes, yep. 433 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,080 But you're, what do you say? 434 00:25:24,140 --> 00:25:24,720 Like, oh, wow. 435 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:30,380 Our, our development team in this one application, which is basically one line of business, we 436 00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:31,900 have like a gazillion commits. 437 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:32,800 Exactly. 438 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:33,460 Right. 439 00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:37,620 But you're like, what if, and, but we've seen this, we've seen like, you know, when we 440 00:25:37,620 --> 00:25:41,560 look at like open source repos or like all these other things, like we, we know that those 441 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:42,540 things can be gained. 442 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,280 We know that doesn't always mean quality. 443 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:49,420 We know that it's so like the, one of the big discussion areas within our working group 444 00:25:49,420 --> 00:25:55,800 was around like Dora, BSSH, all these things are great, but they're not, they're not like 445 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:56,760 the end all be all. 446 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,840 They're all indicators, but they should maybe just that by itself, like that metrics falls 447 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,620 flat because it's always balanced against something else. 448 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,560 Um, lots of rate of change compared against stability, right? 449 00:26:09,820 --> 00:26:14,620 Lots of components, but against quality, like you have to kind of measure those two together. 450 00:26:14,620 --> 00:26:20,060 And then it's also, um, like I've talked to other, uh, uh, some other industry leaders 451 00:26:20,060 --> 00:26:22,100 in the past of like, that's great. 452 00:26:22,180 --> 00:26:26,320 We're making a lot of change, but it's not a high generating rate of video generating 453 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:26,520 app. 454 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,320 It's a very mature app. 455 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:28,560 Does it need a lot of change? 456 00:26:29,260 --> 00:26:29,700 Right. 457 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,440 We need more change on this new thing. 458 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:32,320 We're trying to get out. 459 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:34,260 That's in a more highly competitive space. 460 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,900 So it's so nuanced. 461 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:43,340 Um, so in talking about delivery value, there's a bit of, hey, line of business. 462 00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:47,100 We, there's things that we care about at the highest level. 463 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:47,840 Right. 464 00:26:48,180 --> 00:26:55,760 Um, whether it might be like revenue growth or market share or having like customers, 465 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,860 like, you know, buy like a new, like complimentary product, you know, whatever, whatever those 466 00:27:00,860 --> 00:27:04,060 highest, and to do that, what does that mean? 467 00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:06,600 Technology has to do to make that happen. 468 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,600 So I think the biggest thing that came out was like, be a little more specific. 469 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:17,940 So then you can walk it back from, you know, walk that back, um, to like the actual, like 470 00:27:17,940 --> 00:27:19,240 product engineering teams. 471 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:25,720 Cause then if you say, we need a, we want to like the, one of the examples we had was 472 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:32,800 a, um, uh, was a, uh, travel, like travel, uh, hospitality, like, you know, travel vendor 473 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:38,100 type of, um, customer where they're like, we want to grow, um, direct revenue because they 474 00:27:38,100 --> 00:27:40,080 were getting most, most of their revenue. 475 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,280 Um, their revenue share was actually coming from like third-party travel sites versus their 476 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:45,100 own properties. 477 00:27:45,260 --> 00:27:45,600 Right. 478 00:27:45,940 --> 00:27:47,800 They're like, I want to increase my margins. 479 00:27:48,340 --> 00:27:48,700 Great. 480 00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:50,440 That's a, that's a sizable thing. 481 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:55,100 And then say like, in order to increase my margins, what we need to do is have people buying 482 00:27:55,100 --> 00:28:00,420 from our direct sites versus the travel asset or something like that, right? 483 00:28:00,500 --> 00:28:01,820 Where they have to pay a royalty. 484 00:28:02,140 --> 00:28:05,080 Um, and so then they said, okay, in order to do that, what do we need? 485 00:28:05,540 --> 00:28:05,900 Realizing. 486 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:06,980 Oh, wow. 487 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,740 Our website is basically unusable. 488 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,700 We have no, you know, like we don't have a way for customers to buy direct. 489 00:28:12,980 --> 00:28:13,260 Great. 490 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,620 So now that, then that facts up, we're like, we need a website that can do these things. 491 00:28:17,620 --> 00:28:19,400 We need a call center that can do these things. 492 00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:21,000 We need a mobile app that does these things. 493 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,700 Then that becomes like, well, how quickly can we get that out there? 494 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,160 Like, what are the technology things we need to do? 495 00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:31,180 Um, and then they can measure like a customer. 496 00:28:31,340 --> 00:28:34,660 Then from once it's out, they can start to measure like customer experience. 497 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,960 How many abandoned shopping carts do we have? 498 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,600 Um, or what's the time from like, I don't know, visit to purchase. 499 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,480 The little things like that, that could then be very, that's very like engineering and product 500 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,940 centric, but then we know those are, we've already drawn a line on how that is connected 501 00:28:51,940 --> 00:28:56,520 to like the, like some of the, uh, uh, uh, higher level business concerns. 502 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:57,280 Yeah. 503 00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:03,280 Yeah, no, I, I mean, that's, that's a, that's a, uh, uh, well, it hits upon the, the, the, 504 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,980 the, the common sense thing of like, you know, well, if, if, if you want to sell more directly, 505 00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:12,780 you should make sure you have direct sales enablement as, as, as you were joking up. 506 00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:20,060 But it is like that, that, that is, um, like, like I have, I have this hopeful theory that 507 00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:25,100 a lot of the issues that we talk about in like, you know, connecting the, the, your software 508 00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:30,560 to the business and all of this area of value stuff at some point will become a little easier 509 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,900 because you'll get like a generation of like all the way up to the board of people who are 510 00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:37,720 just like, yeah, I, I know how software works. 511 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:38,120 Right. 512 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,280 Like, of course the software team is important and what they're doing is important because 513 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,620 that's how people buy travel stuff. 514 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,100 So like, they should do that. 515 00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:47,480 Right. 516 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,980 Like we don't, we don't need to necessarily needle about the costs and like, which team 517 00:29:51,980 --> 00:29:53,220 did this value and did that. 518 00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:58,820 It's just sort of like, as, as long as the business is doing well, it's fine, which, you 519 00:29:58,820 --> 00:30:02,400 know, and you want to have that, you want to have those indicators of like health and like 520 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,560 that, that things are not, you know, at that point, it seems like it's just a matter of 521 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:12,700 knowing that you're not like wasting, uh, sort of effort that you're kind of hiding in the, 522 00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:14,280 in the big balloon of success. 523 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:21,040 Uh, and you know, so that you can help people out as needed, but it does seem like, it does 524 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:27,220 seem like we're not quite yet at that point where people who are not in, in, in it, like 525 00:30:27,220 --> 00:30:32,080 really understand across the board that like, well, yeah, software is extremely valuable. 526 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,080 So we should do that. 527 00:30:34,180 --> 00:30:39,280 And like, we don't need, we don't need these complicated spreadsheets of causality about 528 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:40,060 whether it works or not. 529 00:30:40,060 --> 00:30:42,960 Like I use the app and I can see it improving done. 530 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,560 I mean, not that it's necessarily that simple, but something along those lines. 531 00:30:48,380 --> 00:30:53,960 The one question that came up, which is interesting is, uh, it makes a lot of, it's much more clear 532 00:30:53,960 --> 00:31:01,240 to, um, everyone when you're starting a big new project, like, we, we don't have the ability 533 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:02,160 to purchase online. 534 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:03,500 We should definitely do that. 535 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:04,480 That makes a ton of sense. 536 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:05,180 Right. 537 00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:09,940 And so then there's probably, uh, um, that initial investment of like, oh, we need to get 538 00:31:09,940 --> 00:31:15,340 all these things done in order to make this happen, make a new mobile app, make a new backend, 539 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,000 like to, to be able to process all this data. 540 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,500 The question came up is like, once that's going and there's a run rate. 541 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:29,480 Continuing to justify investment, where things got squirrely, which was interesting. 542 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,520 Um, that was a question that came up in some of the discussions with the working group. 543 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,400 Like, how do you continue to talk about value? 544 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,620 Um, uh, because that one-time investment makes a lot of sense for that initial transformation. 545 00:31:42,980 --> 00:31:49,880 But what if it's the, the assumption from non-technical folks is that, well, once it's there and it's fine, 546 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,120 I can just start to, we don't, we can reduce the costs. 547 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:55,400 Right, right, right. 548 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:56,900 And that's not always the case. 549 00:31:56,900 --> 00:32:01,720 So that, that was an interesting thought on like, it's, it's, it's continually figuring out, 550 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:08,360 um, you know, cause your, your, your, uh, value metrics change. 551 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:09,600 Yeah. 552 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,700 More to like over time. 553 00:32:12,220 --> 00:32:12,620 Yeah. 554 00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:14,660 And, and, well, is this true? 555 00:32:15,420 --> 00:32:19,760 I, I've, I've been, I've been a lot of the, the, the financial planning actually does account 556 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,860 for, I mean, you know, they got that fancy word, amortization finance people love that 557 00:32:23,860 --> 00:32:29,700 word, but you know, there's the idea of exactly what you're saying is representing just the, 558 00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:35,040 the, the, the finances of, of, of something over time based on how, what you want to do with 559 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:40,180 it, but it does, you know, like, like you're saying, we talk with a lot of people who have 560 00:32:40,180 --> 00:32:45,480 gigantic existing portfolios that they, they want to live with or not live with, that they 561 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:46,480 want to modernize or not. 562 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:54,560 And it is, it might just be impossible to kind of think about and quantify like the value of, 563 00:32:54,560 --> 00:33:00,960 let's just call it like agility, like, like, because it's, it's not, it's, you know, I, I, I always 564 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,460 dislike analogies outside of software about software, cause we should just talk about software. 565 00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:10,500 But for lack of a better one, it's sort of like, we kind of understand that you need to pay like 566 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:13,200 for maintenance on a road, cause it's gonna fall apart. 567 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:14,900 So like you do that. 568 00:33:15,380 --> 00:33:19,260 And, but then like the idea of like, but this software works. 569 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,680 So why do I have to pay people to sit around and do nothing, right? 570 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:30,200 Like, like what, what kind of like, like, why is it important that this thing that I don't 571 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,580 think I'm ever going to need to change that I could change it in the future, right? 572 00:33:33,580 --> 00:33:35,300 Like, like having that agility to it. 573 00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:40,100 And of course, you know, the, the, the, the punchline is like, well, you're probably always 574 00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:40,980 going to want to change it. 575 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,000 That's why you're talking with us about wanting to modernize your applications. 576 00:33:44,420 --> 00:33:51,780 Like, and so that's, I mean, like, like you're saying, that's, that's that area of, for lack 577 00:33:51,780 --> 00:33:58,540 of a better phrase, quantification that I, I, it's really hard to figure out what to do 578 00:33:58,540 --> 00:34:01,760 about that because it's important in software. 579 00:34:02,020 --> 00:34:03,720 Otherwise you're stuck. 580 00:34:04,540 --> 00:34:04,620 Yeah. 581 00:34:04,740 --> 00:34:09,900 And it's something that you have to make, you have to keep, um, cause it's not like you 582 00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:12,880 can just, oh, I'll just hire some people when we need to make a change. 583 00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:14,020 It's not that, right? 584 00:34:14,540 --> 00:34:17,960 There's like, there has to be a steady state, um, of it. 585 00:34:18,340 --> 00:34:24,660 And it also gets more, that gets a little, like, um, at least with the actual application, 586 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,300 the application maps to a line of business, it's a little more clear. 587 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:35,040 It gets a little, um, squirrelier at, um, platforms because there's now that, cause that 588 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,840 will only continue to grow as it takes on more apps. 589 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,560 And then it's also like a shared service. 590 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,400 So how do you, uh, and we all know how well chargeback generally works, right? 591 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:45,200 Right. 592 00:34:45,260 --> 00:34:45,500 Right. 593 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:46,200 Yeah. 594 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:47,280 Mostly doesn't. 595 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:47,720 I think. 596 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:48,400 Yeah. 597 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,540 No, the, you know, the analogy or not analogy, this anecdote, I always think about chargebacks 598 00:34:53,540 --> 00:34:58,420 is like, you know, uh, uh, well, he, he works with us now, Tony McCauley, who worked at 599 00:34:58,420 --> 00:34:59,900 the home Depot a while back. 600 00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:05,760 And he had a great story about, uh, they, they had, they had, uh, they had what we call 601 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,480 the Tanzu application, uh, service or cloud foundry back then. 602 00:35:09,580 --> 00:35:13,280 And they'd installed it and they had these initial teams, uh, that we were talking about. 603 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,300 And then all of a sudden they were looking at like usage consumption, as we would say. 604 00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:20,380 Uh, and, uh, it flattened out for several months. 605 00:35:20,380 --> 00:35:22,580 And then they were like, what's going wrong? 606 00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:27,360 You know, we, we, it, it's kind of, this kind of pulls together a lot of the, the things, 607 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,740 you know, we've been saying kind of jokingly is like, we're spending all this money to have 608 00:35:30,740 --> 00:35:33,660 this platform to be awesome and no one's using it. 609 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,600 But then they found out to the chargeback point that like, people didn't want to use it because 610 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,120 they didn't want to do the chargebacks. 611 00:35:40,540 --> 00:35:45,540 And, and there was this like, which, which is, you know, it's, it is hilarious because 612 00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:49,340 like at a certain level, you understand that chargebacks are just like, not real. 613 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,400 Like, I mean, you know, things have to get paid for and done, but like more or less, it's 614 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,220 sort of just like the same money moving around in some interesting way. 615 00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:58,360 Uh, anyways. 616 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,300 So, so this was their flash of insight. 617 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,280 It was, they were like, what if we didn't charge people? 618 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:04,960 Right. 619 00:36:05,340 --> 00:36:09,360 Because like, we're already spending the money and we want them to use it. 620 00:36:09,660 --> 00:36:11,540 So maybe we should just make it easy. 621 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:17,580 And then sure enough, you know, usage went up, but it is like, and, and, you know, I think 622 00:36:17,580 --> 00:36:24,340 like things like that make a lot of sense to me because at the platform level, it kind of 623 00:36:24,340 --> 00:36:26,340 is a big agility thing, right? 624 00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:31,880 Like, it's hard to say just on its own, you can see the payoff for a platform. 625 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,220 It's like, well, you have to do something with it. 626 00:36:35,220 --> 00:36:40,500 And, and until you actually get more and more applications on it, there's really nothing 627 00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:40,960 to measure. 628 00:36:41,020 --> 00:36:46,500 You can measure its efficiency, the uptime it provides for things, but like really you need 629 00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:49,720 to have an application to have it, to have any value. 630 00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:51,820 So you should make that as easy as possible. 631 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:52,800 Yeah. 632 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,200 Cause it's also, the platform is a living, breathing thing in many ways, right? 633 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,620 You get it up and running and then you'll continue to add stuff to it. 634 00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:07,060 Um, add, uh, more services, technology, what, uh, what have you, as you bring on more applications 635 00:37:07,060 --> 00:37:10,580 and it needs to be again, like the road, it has to be maintained. 636 00:37:10,580 --> 00:37:15,440 You can't drive cars on it, car, you know, it's not continuously maintained or updated. 637 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,940 So, so here's maybe like the, the, the last thing, you know, as I was thinking of things 638 00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:21,740 to talk about with you. 639 00:37:21,740 --> 00:37:27,000 And I think it's really like, you know, like it's, it's always, it's always good to see, 640 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,840 to talk with someone who's kind of not only has their own ideas like you, but they have 641 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,920 a conduit to all sorts of other people, right? 642 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:37,040 Like whether, whether it's, it's people we talk with kind of in our, our, uh, VMware capacity 643 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,240 or in, in the, uh, you know, the, the, the enterprise forum capacity. 644 00:37:42,540 --> 00:37:48,200 And, and that is like, I have this theory that we in the tech I've, I've, is this true? 645 00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:51,700 I've only ever like lived professionally in the tech world, basically. 646 00:37:52,060 --> 00:37:58,000 And like, I think, I think in the tech world, we get very excited about change and urgency 647 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,700 and we're always like chasing, doing something new. 648 00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:07,100 Like that's, that's our thing, basically it's, it's, it's what our, our, I wouldn't say it's 649 00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:10,380 our product, but it's our, it's our motto. 650 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:11,200 Yeah. 651 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:12,320 It's our industry motto. 652 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,140 It's, uh, yeah, I was gonna, I was, yeah, exactly. 653 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:15,600 Exactly. 654 00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:17,320 Like it's the ethos, the principles. 655 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,460 It's that thing above strategy or even vision, right? 656 00:38:20,460 --> 00:38:27,660 Like, but like, and so I, I've, I've been thinking recently, like we've got to like 657 00:38:27,660 --> 00:38:34,320 be careful about how much of this urgency we let, like drip outside of our crazy world. 658 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:35,360 Right. 659 00:38:35,460 --> 00:38:39,060 And, and this, this started coming up again, when I was talking with the John Deere people 660 00:38:39,060 --> 00:38:44,880 is like, what I found really impressive about their story is a lot of the things we've talked 661 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,440 about, like clearly, you know, I would imagine like definitely at the C-suite level and probably 662 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,720 at the board for the kind of changes they would need to do it. 663 00:38:53,060 --> 00:38:56,800 Someone had that thing I was joking about earlier where they're like, oh, software, that's 664 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:57,460 really important. 665 00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:58,620 Let's do it. 666 00:38:58,980 --> 00:39:03,580 And like, you know, that allowed them to actually think about how software was part of the product 667 00:39:03,580 --> 00:39:05,280 that they were building and a vital part of it. 668 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,400 Anyways, but it took them a long time. 669 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,560 And so I wonder with this people, you, you know, all these people that you talk with like, 670 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:18,880 like myself, like how you think about calibrating that urgency and kind of like, do they actually 671 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:24,920 need more urgency or less or like what, how do you kind of push that button as needed? 672 00:39:25,660 --> 00:39:25,860 Yeah. 673 00:39:25,860 --> 00:39:31,480 I mean, from a business side, there should always be urgency because, you know, it's amazing 674 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,760 today how quickly things can spike or decline. 675 00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:36,260 Right. 676 00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:42,380 Um, every like company, every product is at the mercy of, you know, the social media whims 677 00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:43,480 at the, these days. 678 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:43,760 Right. 679 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:51,200 Um, that said technology adoption, um, you know, there is, I mean, you and I see this, 680 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,740 it's like shiny new object, like a million shiny new objects every day. 681 00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:56,820 What's going to stick, what's not going to stick. 682 00:39:56,820 --> 00:40:04,000 Um, the, and some of those require pretty dramatic, you know, technical, like architectural changes 683 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,480 as well as like process and other changes and knowledge changes in light of a company. 684 00:40:08,740 --> 00:40:16,280 So, um, you know, with that, it's kind of a, they should evaluate, um, there should be an 685 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,100 urgency from understanding and evaluating, but they should really measure. 686 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,800 To like what they have today, you really need to like level set. 687 00:40:25,940 --> 00:40:29,380 It's like the guy who did like, I want this 12 factor, beautiful platform. 688 00:40:29,380 --> 00:40:35,200 I saw like, he said, Roku and I'm like, I wanted that and realized nothing in their 689 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:36,580 environment could do it. 690 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,440 Having a really solid, realistic understanding of like, what do I have? 691 00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:42,500 Like actually applications. 692 00:40:42,820 --> 00:40:49,040 So then what are my application dependencies to use that as like a filter for, of all these 693 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,020 shiny new things? 694 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,300 What are the things that could be actually useful? 695 00:40:54,300 --> 00:41:00,380 Um, because some things won't, if you have what, you know, like high IO intensive apps 696 00:41:00,380 --> 00:41:01,060 or what have you. 697 00:41:01,580 --> 00:41:02,300 Right, right, right. 698 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:02,620 Yeah. 699 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:08,160 It's, it's almost like there, there's a couple of different like sliders for calibrating. 700 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,640 Here I am using analogies to other things instead of the thing itself. 701 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,620 We can build, we can build a little interactive, like big. 702 00:41:14,060 --> 00:41:14,340 Exactly. 703 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:15,200 Exactly. 704 00:41:15,340 --> 00:41:21,120 And, and like, I mean, I, I like, I like the one you've identified, uh, which is like, 705 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,620 would this shiny new thing benefit you? 706 00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:30,240 Like, like it might be cool and fun and even a best practice, but if you don't need it, 707 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:31,960 then it's, you're going to spend a lot of effort on it. 708 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,080 But there's another one that, that I think, I think you're, you're making me think of is 709 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:42,380 that also there is a mixture of like timeline and risk, whereas us in the tech industry, 710 00:41:42,380 --> 00:41:49,720 like, I mean, we, we, we, uh, uh, in our lower, we have a book with the, the kind of 711 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:53,240 like grim title, only the paranoid survive as part of our, like. 712 00:41:53,260 --> 00:41:54,700 We live in tomorrow land, right? 713 00:41:54,740 --> 00:41:55,220 Exactly. 714 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:55,680 Exactly. 715 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,980 Like, like part of our cannon is that like, whatever happened yesterday is old, right? 716 00:41:59,980 --> 00:42:05,860 Like, and so we, we're willing to put up with a lot of risk to like do something 717 00:42:05,860 --> 00:42:06,100 new. 718 00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:11,120 Whereas I think the timeline for most organizations is like, yeah, that's not a problem, right? 719 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,980 Like, like we're, we're in manufacturing or banking or whatever. 720 00:42:14,980 --> 00:42:21,260 So like we have time, so there's no need to like take a huge risk and like run around, 721 00:42:21,260 --> 00:42:25,420 like, like doing things like that, which I think is, uh, that's, that's good to put in 722 00:42:25,420 --> 00:42:26,240 the spreadsheet there. 723 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,660 They've been around for some of those companies have been around for 150 years. 724 00:42:30,940 --> 00:42:35,180 You know, they're not trying to mess up like, like those insurance companies that have 725 00:42:35,180 --> 00:42:36,360 been around for a hundred plus years. 726 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,320 We, we, as consumers really don't want them to mess that up either. 727 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:41,160 Exactly. 728 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:41,940 Yeah. 729 00:42:41,980 --> 00:42:45,700 That's, that's, that's a joke I've been using recently when, when I, I talk with a group 730 00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:48,080 of people is I'm like, I know you want me to talk about AI. 731 00:42:48,420 --> 00:42:49,280 So here's what I'm going to say. 732 00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:49,740 It's great. 733 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,020 I mess around with it. 734 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:51,780 You should use it. 735 00:42:52,180 --> 00:42:53,860 Just, it'll be fantastic. 736 00:42:54,180 --> 00:42:56,300 But if you're my bank, don't do it. 737 00:42:56,300 --> 00:42:59,280 It's like, if you're my doctor, maybe not. 738 00:42:59,400 --> 00:42:59,500 Yeah. 739 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,940 If you're not my bank, you should do it. 740 00:43:02,020 --> 00:43:05,260 And then report back to my bank of how it went and it'll be fine. 741 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:06,320 Yeah. 742 00:43:06,380 --> 00:43:08,000 I think it's again, like, yeah. 743 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:08,640 Measured. 744 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:09,680 Um, yes. 745 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:15,060 I mean, it's exciting living in tomorrow land, but you know, the getting to tomorrow sometimes 746 00:43:15,060 --> 00:43:16,180 takes years. 747 00:43:16,860 --> 00:43:17,260 Yes. 748 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:17,820 Okay. 749 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:18,600 Yeah. 750 00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:19,020 Well, great. 751 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,500 Well, I, I appreciate you, uh, giving me the chance just to ask a bunch of, uh, loosely 752 00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:24,460 related questions. 753 00:43:25,620 --> 00:43:26,320 It's good. 754 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:26,960 Yeah. 755 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,180 It's, it's always good, good to, uh, nice to get some new, uh, as they say, perspectives 756 00:43:31,180 --> 00:43:33,440 and just, uh, anecdotes and things like that. 757 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,660 I'm a firm believer in, uh, what is it that, that data is a plural of anecdote. 758 00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:40,820 So I can go update some charts now and good stuff like that. 759 00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:45,400 Well, I mean, you, you've mentioned several, uh, several things you work on, but where, if, 760 00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:50,320 if people were interested in just finding out more about you in a non-creepy way, see, 761 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,480 see things that you, uh, you've been working on, like, what would you point them at? 762 00:43:53,940 --> 00:43:54,540 Oh, you know what? 763 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,340 I have them all, um, either on Twitter or actually probably LinkedIn. 764 00:43:58,580 --> 00:44:04,000 I have, uh, like some of these books, these books, papers, articles for VMware and also 765 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,420 outside of VMware, you know, from my days at Docker and whatnot. 766 00:44:07,660 --> 00:44:09,320 Those are all, those are all there. 767 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:10,400 Nicely. 768 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:10,620 Yeah. 769 00:44:10,660 --> 00:44:13,720 You know, LinkedIn is going to, they need to make like a little webpage interface. 770 00:44:13,820 --> 00:44:17,820 I bet they talk about that all the time instead of just that like pinned post or 771 00:44:17,820 --> 00:44:22,060 something they need like, uh, what's it, they should buy that company that people use 772 00:44:22,060 --> 00:44:28,020 for, uh, for Instagram, like link tree or something, you know, the, the Lincoln, it's, 773 00:44:28,020 --> 00:44:32,300 it's like, like if you go into Instagram, like, and, you know, you can only like put, 774 00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:34,720 well, now you can put like three, but you can put one URL. 775 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:40,100 And so what people will do is there's some services you go to and you can kind of automate 776 00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:41,800 posting things in there. 777 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,460 So you can always like, you can post your Instagram picture and you'll say like, uh, 778 00:44:45,460 --> 00:44:46,460 click the link in bio. 779 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,580 And then there'll be like the last 50 things you were trying to like, you know, get people 780 00:44:50,580 --> 00:44:51,100 to get in. 781 00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:51,740 Oh, okay. 782 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,700 And so like that, anyways, it's just a good index. 783 00:44:54,820 --> 00:44:57,460 Look, I, I, I look forward to clicking on your profile too. 784 00:44:58,580 --> 00:44:58,980 Exactly. 785 00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:00,560 A lot of products you're shilling. 786 00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:00,980 Okay. 787 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:01,840 Yes. 788 00:45:02,060 --> 00:45:02,360 Yes. 789 00:45:02,620 --> 00:45:03,200 Shill tree. 790 00:45:03,620 --> 00:45:04,020 Exactly. 791 00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:04,840 Shill tree. 792 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:07,400 That's what we can call it. 793 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:08,540 You're an influencer. 794 00:45:09,140 --> 00:45:09,300 Yeah. 795 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:10,200 Exactly. 796 00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:10,960 All right. 797 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:11,680 Well, uh, great. 798 00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:15,420 Well, if, if you've, uh, if, if, whether you've watched this, uh, the video of it or 799 00:45:15,420 --> 00:45:18,500 listen to it online, it's been a, another fun Tansu talk conversation. 800 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,620 I'll, I'll put some links to some of those things. 801 00:45:20,780 --> 00:45:22,820 If shill tree exists, I'll try to look that up. 802 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:23,460 That would be great. 803 00:45:23,580 --> 00:45:24,920 I think we have an idea for you, sir. 804 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:26,280 Exactly. 805 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,740 But as always, you can go to, uh, Tansu talk.com and, uh, look up the show notes for 806 00:45:30,740 --> 00:45:31,020 this. 807 00:45:31,020 --> 00:45:35,780 And, uh, as I always like to advise the next time you get ahold of, uh, someone's phone 808 00:45:35,780 --> 00:45:40,320 or computer, just open up their podcast app and subscribe them to Tansu talk. 809 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,620 Uh, they may be not thank you later, but I will, uh, for, for getting new listeners 810 00:45:44,620 --> 00:45:45,180 for us. 811 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:46,500 Like, and subscribe. 812 00:45:46,980 --> 00:45:47,260 Exactly. 813 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:48,360 All right. 814 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,160 And with that, we'll see everyone next time. 815 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:50,940 Bye-bye. 816 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:51,680 Bye.