1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,840 you know just real quickly we were talking about prince before we started streaming here 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:09,800 and that reminded me that i was in the minneapolis airport recently and uh i'm happy to report that 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,820 they have a prince gift store in the minneapolis gift store for the i mean airport for those who 4 00:00:14,820 --> 00:00:18,940 don't know that's where prince is from so i'd say that's quite specific but that makes sense 5 00:00:18,940 --> 00:00:23,920 yeah i didn't know that it was i i i don't you know i don't know about about youtube but 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:30,560 so often i'll see something like you know of course like a a faux vintage purple rain t-shirt 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:36,540 or when i was in des moines iowa and there was just kind of like a faux 70s style des moines t-shirt 8 00:00:36,540 --> 00:00:41,100 and my first thought is i should buy one of those because that's cool and then i'm like i don't know 9 00:00:41,100 --> 00:00:46,240 i got enough t-shirts and then here i am thinking like man why didn't i buy those shirts like of 10 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,180 course you should buy those those would be great and just throw out some you know 11 00:00:50,180 --> 00:00:56,620 conference shirt that i got a while ago i don't need that anymore and and uh of course you want 12 00:00:56,620 --> 00:01:02,080 a purple rain shirt well speaking of purple rain uh i thought this episode well you know uh 13 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:07,420 we're all three back together again it's been a while we've been on a uh a summer hiatus which 14 00:01:07,420 --> 00:01:13,620 is fine uh i think it's good to have hi hiatus see is hiatus latin i should look that up 15 00:01:13,620 --> 00:01:22,600 hiatus hey hi hi hi hi yeah it's a country isn't it it's also good to have my tie oh yes guys on your 16 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:27,520 holidays but i thought we would come in i think i forget when this was published but there was a 17 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:33,060 uh there was kind of a gartner overview of what service mesh is i was just at sre day in london 18 00:01:33,060 --> 00:01:42,780 uh yesterday uh um and i saw a talk um from one of the the solo guys i i'm i'm thinking it's it was 19 00:01:42,780 --> 00:01:48,940 alessandro sorry if i got that wrong but he was going over service mesh stuff and you know i always 20 00:01:48,940 --> 00:01:53,700 wonder what a service mesh is so it was i thought it'd be a good time to check in now ed of course 21 00:01:53,700 --> 00:01:58,740 here here's here's the lineup that i'm thinking we're gonna have one i'm just gonna be like what is 22 00:01:58,740 --> 00:02:04,620 the deal with service meshes right like that's that's my role as always and i think i think you 23 00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:08,480 know ed you follow all this stuff closely so you know what we're supposed to think about service 24 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:14,160 meshes like you know you've got like the the analyst things right and and i think i think for those 25 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,960 listening the kind of like maybe head head shake is exactly what we're supposed to be thinking about 26 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:25,220 service meshes at the moment so good job and then ben what what i'm gonna ask from you is like why 27 00:02:25,220 --> 00:02:30,800 don't we just use spring cloud right like like it seems like this is this is a weird category of 28 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:40,640 stuff that that i don't know but let's let's start with that is like i i remember uh man golly 29 00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:47,520 three years ago or more like i had someone i interviewed someone on my other podcast software 30 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:55,060 to find talk uh uh from the istio project and i was yeah i was i was basically like i don't understand 31 00:02:55,060 --> 00:03:01,280 what the service mesh thing is right like i i i keep reading about it and like and i also don't 32 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:08,280 understand exactly what istio does and i think that was also the point where knative was something 33 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:14,700 than it otherwise so i get confused about knative every now and then uh you know to me the the cloud 34 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:19,080 native orchestration word world is just like you know you made you made a gumbo and tripped on the 35 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:24,240 way out of the kitchen and it's kind of all there on the floor it's delicious it smells good but you're 36 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,840 trying to make sense of it like uh to use another latin word like the the hoss bricks you know who would 37 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:37,320 like look at the intestines of a bird to tell the future um but moving on uh like tell me you two tell 38 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:42,120 me if i'm wrong but my understanding of a service mesh let's start with the definition is that 39 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:48,620 as the gartner overview said of course you could do this with vms but essentially it's if you have 40 00:03:48,620 --> 00:03:57,420 a kubernetes based platform and inherently again you can always do the bad things that you're not 41 00:03:57,420 --> 00:04:04,360 supposed to uh with this stuff but if you have a kubernetes stack the application architecture you're 42 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:11,740 supposed to have is what uh older gentlemen like me would call a distributed application which is to say 43 00:04:11,740 --> 00:04:17,960 you break an application into different components that collaborate over a network uh even if that's a 44 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:23,360 fake network but basically they're going to be making calls over a network maybe it's an event-based 45 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:28,760 system but you don't just have like one chunk of code that's that's coordinated with each other 46 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,620 you've got these components that are working over a network and i think the notion of a service mesh is 47 00:04:33,620 --> 00:04:39,760 that like this is the first Coté is is just like shocked that gambling's going on in in kubernetes 48 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:47,320 is is is like it turns out i think that kubernetes doesn't do that and so you need this whole other 49 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:54,040 layer of a service mesh that basically coordinates uh your your different the components of your 50 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:58,700 application finding each other coordinates how they communicate with each other and coordinates 51 00:04:58,700 --> 00:05:04,160 most importantly for our enterprise world the security and access control of it and then also 52 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:12,040 since we're in the uh the multi-cloud uh uh camp of of uh the cloud native world also what a service 53 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,540 mesh does for you and maybe other things do this is it allows you to link together 54 00:05:16,540 --> 00:05:25,420 um previously what's the word disparate distinct previously their own kubernetes world so that 55 00:05:25,420 --> 00:05:30,560 if i had if i had a kubernetes install i mean i guess it could be on the on the i have one running 56 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,180 on this side of the wall and another running on that side of the wall or it could be on different 57 00:05:35,180 --> 00:05:40,960 sides of the atlantic ocean these are different is the word you use cluster i don't know my vocabulary 58 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,300 well i told you i was going to be playing the village idiot all of you about different clouds different 59 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:51,260 clusters right so you're different you've got you've got different kubernetes kubernetes eyes i don't know 60 00:05:51,260 --> 00:05:59,660 how to pluralize greek kubernetes i no i don't think kubernetes eyes and and you want to basically have 61 00:05:59,660 --> 00:06:04,540 uh them communicate with each other and then a service mesh can do that for you as well and then 62 00:06:04,540 --> 00:06:11,500 as with any time when you're doing networking stuff if you want to which you usually do if you want to drag in 63 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:15,820 like i was mentioning you know access control and certificate management and load balancing and all 64 00:06:15,820 --> 00:06:24,540 that kind of stuff that you can do at layer six i i've lost track of the seven layer like uh networking 65 00:06:24,540 --> 00:06:30,140 burrito which layer is which but you can kind of push that stuff down in into the networking layer as 66 00:06:30,140 --> 00:06:37,100 opposed to the application layer and i think that's what a service mesh does is that in the ballpark 67 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:45,420 that's what i think it does yeah yeah yeah i mean i was gone oh no no go ahead i was just gonna fill 68 00:06:45,420 --> 00:06:49,740 dead air i mean i've so my problem is that i'll go off and i'll read about service mesh i'll understand 69 00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:54,220 what it's telling me which is largely what you just said at very high level i i can read and get more about 70 00:06:54,220 --> 00:06:58,940 the low level and then two months later someone asks me about it and i have forgotten a lot of 71 00:06:58,940 --> 00:07:04,380 the detail and i just come back to this same thing in my head my analogy has always been actual sort of 72 00:07:04,380 --> 00:07:09,100 real traffic and google maps so i'm like real traffic like if i want to drive off across my 73 00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:13,420 little island okay it's small i don't have far to go but you know said maybe it's a multi island who 74 00:07:13,420 --> 00:07:18,300 knows either way if i want to go off to somebody else's house and see all my mates it was easy when 75 00:07:18,300 --> 00:07:21,740 we were all small and we all lived a mile away and then we all broke up and we all went off to 76 00:07:21,740 --> 00:07:26,060 different places now suddenly i have to drive off to see them and someone's got to coordinate all the 77 00:07:26,060 --> 00:07:31,020 traffic the network pipes and stuff all there right the roads and the traffic lights but i go to something 78 00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:35,900 like google maps to say actually what route should i take to get from here to there and it will show me 79 00:07:35,900 --> 00:07:40,780 and it will show me things like traffic bottlenecks so if there's too much traffic in one place it will 80 00:07:40,780 --> 00:07:44,780 show it red and it might well say you know what it'd be quicker if you went that way not this way 81 00:07:45,580 --> 00:07:51,580 and i kind of look at service meshes being that overlay on top of just the road system yeah but 82 00:07:51,580 --> 00:07:56,060 you control it you know google maps for me is i i can't say you know what stop all that traffic down 83 00:07:56,060 --> 00:08:01,340 my road and let only me go down it please or let me and my five friends go down it whereas in service 84 00:08:01,340 --> 00:08:06,220 mesh land you can you can say great you know send all my blue cars this way send all my green cars that 85 00:08:06,220 --> 00:08:11,340 way it just lets you have more control and visibility and like you said secures always you know i've got 86 00:08:11,340 --> 00:08:16,380 roadworks outside my house right now so they've shut the road and that's another thing the security 87 00:08:16,380 --> 00:08:20,780 is right you can pass you can't it just lets you regulate all that traffic pick and choose where 88 00:08:20,780 --> 00:08:25,900 it goes and visualize it all in real time in a way that as you said kubernetes wouldn't provide out 89 00:08:25,900 --> 00:08:30,700 the box that traffic would still be flowing but in a very chaotic random manner that you wouldn't have 90 00:08:30,700 --> 00:08:36,620 visibility into no that makes sense well first of all i've been having some mic problems so if my audio 91 00:08:36,620 --> 00:08:42,540 sounds annoying i apologize but it's only in stream yard which we record this in and also in chrome 92 00:08:42,540 --> 00:08:49,260 and zoom it's fine i don't know and in other areas so so maybe one day i'll fix that uh hopefully soon 93 00:08:49,260 --> 00:08:58,460 but but yes following up on what you were saying ed i guess after all these years and we of course sell 94 00:08:58,460 --> 00:09:04,700 a service mesh so i'm not going to be too negative about it of course uh because why would i it's great 95 00:09:04,700 --> 00:09:08,620 uh but it does seem like if you boil down 96 00:09:10,860 --> 00:09:16,780 there's two other than what it does there's two reasons that you use a service mesh one is that 97 00:09:17,980 --> 00:09:23,980 kubernetes doesn't do what a service mesh does and so you need that but then i think too that the even 98 00:09:23,980 --> 00:09:30,380 more compelling reason that maybe emerges is as you were saying you can you have more control over the 99 00:09:30,380 --> 00:09:36,140 flow of network traffic and therefore because the applications you're running in kubernetes 100 00:09:36,780 --> 00:09:42,220 are distributed applications because they need a network to function you have a lot of control over 101 00:09:42,220 --> 00:09:47,020 how your applications are executing and what the applications are doing so it's really just like 102 00:09:48,220 --> 00:09:53,980 you just have more control which in general especially if you're my bank i want you to have as much control 103 00:09:53,980 --> 00:10:00,460 as possible i i appreciate that like it's it's great yeah i think the challenges have been like so the 104 00:10:00,460 --> 00:10:05,580 the difference for me google maps is as simple as it can be i can fire that out in an app on any device 105 00:10:05,580 --> 00:10:10,780 i've got i seal my roads i click with a finger i'm done and if service mesh were that easy i suspect 106 00:10:10,780 --> 00:10:15,740 everyone would have one buy one everything's great yeah but they are not as easy to implement right 107 00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:20,300 they have this extra you know the sidecar pattern all these extra technical constraints they have 108 00:10:20,300 --> 00:10:25,100 and operational concerns people who need expertise in service message to operate them 109 00:10:26,300 --> 00:10:31,900 and that seems to be one of the big stumbling blocks in terms of the adoption and and i think that's 110 00:10:31,900 --> 00:10:37,500 like that's the part to go back to the the thing both of us have said but especially me it's like 111 00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:44,780 it is it seems like something that should just be built into kubernetes not only because like 112 00:10:44,780 --> 00:10:48,780 conceptually at least to me it seems like isn't that what that does but also 113 00:10:50,940 --> 00:10:56,300 i i mean i feel like maybe the lesson the lesson one of the lessons of if you remember software 114 00:10:56,300 --> 00:11:00,620 defined networking i remember spending a lot of time trying to figure out what that was but it was kind 115 00:11:00,620 --> 00:11:08,060 of similar where i don't think there was like a standard it was just like an outcome that people 116 00:11:08,060 --> 00:11:13,420 were looking to achieve and so there were all these different ways to do it and then that was just 117 00:11:13,420 --> 00:11:20,700 a lot of cognitive overload and and also compatibility problems so it seems like if you just made it part 118 00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:26,540 of kubernetes just like with a lot of stuff in kubernetes it would just be like standardized but i don't 119 00:11:26,540 --> 00:11:35,660 know that's that's not how it is i suppose which which brings me to so ben like you know you you 120 00:11:35,660 --> 00:11:42,140 you are the one who has programmed much more recently than me since i stopped programming in 2005 but it 121 00:11:42,140 --> 00:11:49,100 feels like a lot of what a service mesh is trying to accomplish like first we had jndi which did that 122 00:11:50,220 --> 00:11:57,420 sort of and and then like and now i mean it's not only spring cloud but now at the application layer 123 00:11:57,420 --> 00:12:02,460 you have like spring cloud and and spring cloud is a whole bunch of different stuff but you basically 124 00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:13,820 have like built into i think most every enterprise programming stack is a concept of uh i'm i'm i'm a 125 00:12:13,820 --> 00:12:19,740 little teapot i'm i'm a little chunk of code and i need a network connection to connect to another 126 00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:25,660 little chunk of code to hang out with it and so therefore i need a registry so i can look up the 127 00:12:25,660 --> 00:12:30,700 other chunks of code i need a way of getting that connection and it also needs to be secured and 128 00:12:30,700 --> 00:12:38,460 configured right and it seems like this is always my maybe naive view of networking stuff is just like 129 00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:44,300 well one doesn't that exist already and is this really just a way to not have to schedule a meeting 130 00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:51,340 with with like the network admin like like like it seems because it seems like what you'll end up 131 00:12:51,340 --> 00:12:56,780 with is you'll have a service mesh so one you would have your like whatever you know your router 132 00:12:56,780 --> 00:13:03,980 configuration is your your network admins and then you might even have your your virtualization admin 133 00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:09,500 setting things up and then you're gonna have your kubernetes admin setting up their service mesh and 134 00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:14,220 now you've got three network configurations going on and then the developers don't want to talk to 135 00:13:14,220 --> 00:13:20,140 any of those people so they're going to be like hey what if we just do our own service mesh layering 136 00:13:20,140 --> 00:13:25,340 and then we never have to talk to those people and it seems like you would just go all the way down 137 00:13:25,340 --> 00:13:33,580 the stack and be like what if we talk to that original network admin and we had them do this but i i don't 138 00:13:33,580 --> 00:13:40,860 know what uh am i am i making up some tempest in a teapot here no i think i think there's some truth in 139 00:13:40,860 --> 00:13:48,300 that um i i think i think it there's a huge amount of it depends to this whole conversation really isn't 140 00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:54,940 it um you're right when you mentioned that there are alternative mechanisms for doing much of what 141 00:13:54,940 --> 00:14:01,340 exists in a service mesh you know you mentioned spring cloud has some uh things in there like spring 142 00:14:01,340 --> 00:14:08,060 cloud gateway that will give you access to all sorts of features like load balancing and you have 143 00:14:08,060 --> 00:14:16,140 stuff in spring for observability around micrometer and things um there's all sorts of options in 144 00:14:16,140 --> 00:14:20,540 there but of course you got to remember not everyone's writing spring right if you're writing python or 145 00:14:20,540 --> 00:14:27,180 whatever it's not really it's not it's not naturally your first choice right it it you you still 146 00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:34,620 you still but there are options okay so so what you're saying is true there are there are options 147 00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:40,620 and i think even in kubernetes land there are options you know if you if you want to do um service 148 00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:48,940 discovery there's a way to do that in kubernetes with the built-in dns features right but it depends on 149 00:14:48,940 --> 00:14:55,660 on your point of view if your point of view is that you would like ubiquity and control 150 00:14:55,660 --> 00:15:05,020 then a service mesh might be ideal for you but if you have the point of view that it is complex which 151 00:15:05,020 --> 00:15:13,580 a lot of people seem to have or that it slows you down or that it adds a degree of um cognitive load that 152 00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:20,300 you don't want then maybe you'll be quite happy with some of you know mix and matching 153 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:25,260 some alternatives that already exist out there that are closer to your stack and closer to the 154 00:15:25,260 --> 00:15:33,180 way that you work so yeah it's it's a challenge because it's a there's a great deal of it depends 155 00:15:33,180 --> 00:15:39,340 it depends on on your enterprise and what it is that you're trying to achieve and your point of view 156 00:15:40,220 --> 00:15:43,900 and and and i get you know the other thing you're you're bumping up against there well 157 00:15:45,020 --> 00:15:48,940 intentionally or or or you're uh playing around with is the idea of like 158 00:15:50,620 --> 00:16:00,540 yes all of that's true and there's very rarely a uh well architected kind of rational stack that you 159 00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:06,540 can work with right like you often have a bunch of incompatible things that weren't built together 160 00:16:06,540 --> 00:16:13,660 and then you've got to span different geographies and zones and so like you can't just like you you 161 00:16:13,660 --> 00:16:19,180 actually are forced to deal with various layers that that you have and then even kind of like we were 162 00:16:19,180 --> 00:16:24,300 talking about ed like you need something that lets you control all of this mess because like 163 00:16:26,060 --> 00:16:31,820 for whatever reason or prioritization you can't go fix it right like like you can't you can't take 164 00:16:31,820 --> 00:16:37,740 the time to make it all like to go and have that meeting with the the networking admin and just fix 165 00:16:37,740 --> 00:16:44,220 all 500 of your applications and and how they uh how they use the network but you could you know 166 00:16:44,220 --> 00:16:50,060 layer a service mesh in there which would allow all the current behavior of how applications work 167 00:16:50,060 --> 00:16:55,020 they could do all their own stuff but it would give you a huge amount of control to essentially secure 168 00:16:55,020 --> 00:17:01,100 and manage all the network traffic that you have which again sounds like something i would like my 169 00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:06,460 bank to do that that sounds great i i that's my new that's my new use case for everything is like 170 00:17:06,460 --> 00:17:12,540 i don't i don't want my bank innovating i i would prefer they just stay exactly the same 171 00:17:12,540 --> 00:17:19,660 and uh not ever try anything new uh yeah well that's that's kind of i mean that that that gets to 172 00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:26,940 another area of kind of uh abstract thinking which is like i'm i'm starting to wonder if that picture 173 00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:33,740 that i was just painting is it's a little un devopsy and that you're we're intentionally building a stack 174 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:40,460 where we have these layers that are almost like silos that we've knocked over instead of them being 175 00:17:40,460 --> 00:17:45,420 vertical and we're totally cool with having these layers of people who don't coordinate and talk with 176 00:17:45,420 --> 00:17:50,700 each other like the networking layer the infrastructure layer and then we we and then you just let the 177 00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:56,780 application developers do whatever they want within this like very controlled uh environment uh 178 00:17:58,380 --> 00:18:03,340 i think it's decoupling is what you described it's not it's not the idea that i don't want to talk to 179 00:18:03,340 --> 00:18:10,620 anyone it's the idea that if you can decouple the dependencies between those layers and those folks to a 180 00:18:10,620 --> 00:18:17,820 certain extent they can all get on with what they're good at and not spend countless hours in meetings 181 00:18:17,820 --> 00:18:25,900 debating rfc protocols right yes if anything i mean it should make the fact even if they 182 00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:30,380 if that becomes a technology silo in terms of a separate application but it doesn't necessarily 183 00:18:30,380 --> 00:18:35,340 become a silo from a process point of view i mean a if it's sort of designed from the ground up being 184 00:18:35,340 --> 00:18:39,740 devopsies should we say then potentially it can all be automated and built in and integrated to 185 00:18:39,740 --> 00:18:44,460 whatever processes you've got but like ben said i think it's a decoupling it's right the idea especially 186 00:18:44,460 --> 00:18:49,180 the service mesh is the application developers don't have to care about that it takes some stuff 187 00:18:49,180 --> 00:18:53,580 off their plate and if the network guys just built it in like i said ideally if it was just built into 188 00:18:53,580 --> 00:18:58,860 kubernetes anyway then the kubernetes team operate it you don't even need your network team to be involved 189 00:18:58,860 --> 00:19:02,780 sort of thing or it's just part of but it's the decoupling and just you know that being the whole 190 00:19:02,780 --> 00:19:06,780 point of abstractions right it makes life simpler for people because they only have to worry about 191 00:19:06,780 --> 00:19:11,980 certain considerations um but it feels to me like service mesh isn't necessarily it hasn't nailed 192 00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:17,500 the abstraction level you know is it right to have that the network team doing it or do some people 193 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:22,860 want some of that stuff sort of at the development stack level do you put it in spring cloud do you put 194 00:19:22,860 --> 00:19:27,740 it in you know i think dapper's one that i've seen which was originally microsoft thing wasn't it but 195 00:19:27,740 --> 00:19:33,500 is now sort of a cncf one but again that's like a middleware layer uses sidecars overlaps with a lot 196 00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:39,180 of the service mesh mesh functionality but is geared more at developers not at like a platform team in 197 00:19:39,180 --> 00:19:44,700 the same way so they sort of see that some of that functionality might be better off at that persona 198 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:49,980 level um and it just clearly doesn't resonate with everybody that this is the right thing they want 199 00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:56,060 this is an abstraction they need yeah yeah yeah it does seem to have failed to deliver on a certain 200 00:19:56,060 --> 00:20:02,140 amount of promise perhaps you know if we're looking back at it retrospectively and thinking about 201 00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:09,980 i don't know the last five years of service mesh discussions seems to have not been as pervasive 202 00:20:09,980 --> 00:20:19,500 as hoped and not um been as highly adopted as hoped and when you sort of retrospect on the reasons 203 00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:23,900 why that might be there there are several and you know we've talked about some of them already 204 00:20:24,540 --> 00:20:33,820 complexity definitely an issue um consistency uh getting folks consensus as well around service 205 00:20:33,820 --> 00:20:39,580 mesh actually building a consensus around it it's probably very difficult so there yeah there it seems 206 00:20:39,580 --> 00:20:45,340 to be a certain amount of not not quite delivered on the promise yet so maybe there's more to come maybe 207 00:20:45,340 --> 00:20:52,620 there's there's ways to make it even simpler bake it into platforms you know right at the start so that 208 00:20:53,260 --> 00:20:59,020 the introduction of a service mesh isn't isn't as jarring as it perhaps is if you come along and do it 209 00:20:59,020 --> 00:21:05,180 later yeah yeah yeah yeah that was that was one of gartner's sort of recommendations in this report 210 00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:09,260 wasn't it so they basically pulled up the same of you know that it hasn't seen the success or the adoption 211 00:21:09,260 --> 00:21:15,100 that was maybe expected from it um and that they didn't really see that changing um and also 212 00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:19,180 that one of the things you do you know a lot of people do bundle in a service mesh with a platform 213 00:21:19,180 --> 00:21:23,260 to look at those um and i wasn't you know there were a bunch of things in there that i guess from 214 00:21:23,260 --> 00:21:28,300 the vmware point of view were very good the the things they said they felt a service mesh should 215 00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:33,340 be doing to be successful which is what we talked about multi-cloud multi-whatever you know connecting 216 00:21:33,340 --> 00:21:38,460 disparate meshes or being an overlay on top offering management at scale all the things that our 217 00:21:38,460 --> 00:21:43,820 product is sort of geared towards it's the one or one of the use cases where they did see value in them and 218 00:21:43,820 --> 00:21:48,780 say these ones may be the successful ones um and that might be also you know we had this other 219 00:21:48,780 --> 00:21:54,220 report i don't know if we mentioned it or not giga rom did a report um and that's more of a just 220 00:21:54,220 --> 00:22:00,060 comparison of service meshes we say rather than a state of the industry but we scored very well in 221 00:22:00,060 --> 00:22:05,340 that one as well we can put those in the show notes oh this was a radar wasn't it i love a good radar 222 00:22:05,340 --> 00:22:11,420 yeah yeah i love a good radar how close are they how close are they uh you got to watch your back 223 00:22:11,420 --> 00:22:20,380 with the radars haven't you uh yeah you know i i i like the framing or framing is like a rhetorical 224 00:22:20,380 --> 00:22:25,820 thing but i like the um why does this thing exist explanation that we're getting to which is like 225 00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:29,740 another way of putting it is that like so you have your application developers 226 00:22:30,540 --> 00:22:36,540 and to put it very broadly like you don't really want them worrying about networking issues outside of 227 00:22:36,540 --> 00:22:43,180 their own application right like and versus like the whatever you want i'm going to say the operations 228 00:22:43,180 --> 00:22:48,620 people the people running all this stuff instead of focusing on the application development like 229 00:22:49,260 --> 00:22:54,300 they're the ones who can worry about like your multi-site kubernetes stuff like what networking 230 00:22:54,300 --> 00:22:58,860 issues are as far as your ingress and egress once it's actually on the public internet and like 231 00:22:59,420 --> 00:23:05,420 all of that sort of stuff is sort is like not really anything you want your application developers 232 00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:13,420 dealing with right like inside their application sure they can do whatever they want uh and and if 233 00:23:13,420 --> 00:23:22,060 that's the case it does make sense almost to some to some extent that your service meshes 234 00:23:22,060 --> 00:23:29,340 this kind of external thing like a tool that you choose that fits the needs that you have to fit into 235 00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:36,380 your like multi-cloud setup and that and and equally you don't really want kubernetes assuming that it 236 00:23:36,380 --> 00:23:42,220 knows what you need like you want you want to keep the core of kubernetes pretty small and just focused 237 00:23:42,220 --> 00:23:48,940 on uh you know kind of its orchestration and it's it's uh being an api and a specification for how to do 238 00:23:48,940 --> 00:23:54,700 all this stuff and then you get that that that not only like security controls but also just like 239 00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:59,420 performance controls and stuff i don't really know anything about network administration but i think 240 00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:05,180 they do that kind of thing i i like that idea too the idea that you know actually it's it's what you 241 00:24:05,180 --> 00:24:12,620 can relieve folks from having to deliver you know look don't worry about observability we've got this 242 00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:16,940 apm monitoring built in through the service mesh right you don't need to worry about it we know 243 00:24:16,940 --> 00:24:22,620 every traffic call that's going anywhere we know exactly what if your cpu is spiking we know about 244 00:24:22,620 --> 00:24:26,620 it if you're running out of memory we know about it you know just don't worry about that stuff it's 245 00:24:26,620 --> 00:24:31,660 all sorted you know that's great that's our bill quadrupled this month because of egress charges but 246 00:24:31,660 --> 00:24:40,860 we can see that it's fine it's it's kind of like i i forget what there's some practice that emerged 247 00:24:40,860 --> 00:24:47,740 what is it even like xp.io where like developers would set up these like really easy to make uh 248 00:24:47,740 --> 00:24:52,940 public domain names that you could use that would just loop back to to you know localhost or whatever 249 00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:57,980 i forget what these urls are but it's it was it's one of those services where it's like well we could 250 00:24:57,980 --> 00:25:03,820 go and actually do regular internet dns setup or we could just use this faked out thing that we have 251 00:25:03,820 --> 00:25:09,020 right and and it's a similar thing of just like removing the need to actually do real network 252 00:25:09,020 --> 00:25:16,300 administration you know it's it's like my my my uh uh i don't know not perennial but any chance i 253 00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:20,460 get i make the snarky comment of like you know it sounds like a lot of what we've been doing for 254 00:25:20,460 --> 00:25:26,620 the last 15 years we if we just had fixed dns we could have saved a lot of time like at some point 255 00:25:27,340 --> 00:25:32,460 someone should realize like well maybe you should fix how this works if it's so complicated has anyone 256 00:25:32,460 --> 00:25:40,060 thought of that uh but but apparently not uh instead we put up with it we were the fundamental 257 00:25:40,060 --> 00:25:44,620 substrate that you have an issue with then the fundamental substrates of the internet as long 258 00:25:44,620 --> 00:25:50,380 as we just fix all this yeah it's just like i mean again i'm a naive application developer but it's 259 00:25:50,380 --> 00:25:56,940 like i just have a string that i want to go to this set of numbers and that's it like how hard can it be 260 00:25:57,340 --> 00:26:05,420 right like that's in the comments right yeah distributed name system you make something 261 00:26:05,420 --> 00:26:10,380 distributed it gets more complex and we thought that seems good let's do it to everything and 262 00:26:10,380 --> 00:26:14,620 now you have kubernetes and even more complexity i don't know you're just you're just like a 263 00:26:14,620 --> 00:26:18,380 a record c names what is all this who needs this 264 00:26:21,340 --> 00:26:26,300 well yeah i i think well that that's that's uh i think that makes a lot of sense i mean it is it's 265 00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:30,700 similar to software defined networks for like you can't really have a standard but you can have the 266 00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:36,540 uh the the outcomes around that well i i think we've solved that problem uh yeah really got that 267 00:26:36,540 --> 00:26:43,180 that cinched up that's that was easy yeah so i think you know just to just to bring it in the talk 268 00:26:43,180 --> 00:26:52,780 that i saw um alessandro giving right like he he it was it was an sre day right and and it is kind of a 269 00:26:52,780 --> 00:26:59,580 uh a validation but it kind of adds the direction we're going is he did kind of articulate like and 270 00:26:59,580 --> 00:27:04,140 therefore if you look at what a service mesh does it makes sense that an sre would be interested in 271 00:27:04,140 --> 00:27:09,500 using it to accomplish many of their goals right it allows you to have a lot of control over and and 272 00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:15,500 kind of they don't say promises but establishing a contract your your your slo is with people that 273 00:27:15,500 --> 00:27:20,620 we can kind of like you were saying ed like don't worry about the cost we can monitor that and kind 274 00:27:20,620 --> 00:27:25,260 of deal with it when it happens and uh you know that's that's i don't know if that has anything to 275 00:27:25,260 --> 00:27:32,140 do with sre stuff but it does make sense that it would be a good tool for an operations person to use 276 00:27:32,140 --> 00:27:37,180 to have a lot more control over that versus to use my jokey thing like oh now we got to go talk to the 277 00:27:37,180 --> 00:27:45,500 network admin right like you have the um uh uh your layers of abstraction what did you say ben 278 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:52,300 component realization yeah well decoupling decoupling that's the one that's that's supposed to be good 279 00:27:52,860 --> 00:28:03,260 decoupling always preferable it's not if you're in the last train car that's you want some strong 280 00:28:03,260 --> 00:28:09,180 coupling it's been a very strong coupling there yeah i guess i guess with automobiles that's a 281 00:28:09,180 --> 00:28:15,580 decoupled architecture but a train is uh is is uh coupled that's almost i i always shy away from 282 00:28:15,580 --> 00:28:21,100 metaphors and programming because you might as well just talk about the actual programming but uh there 283 00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:26,540 are there's a lot of efficiencies in coupling just like with trains versus uh you give up a lot of 284 00:28:26,540 --> 00:28:33,500 efficiencies to have the agility of a uh of a car system uh but but that's nice like if you take an 285 00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:41,420 uber from uh even from like canary island canary canary wharf to london city airport you're gonna see 286 00:28:41,420 --> 00:28:46,780 a lot of different things as the car agilely goes to the neighborhood versus just taking the uh the regular 287 00:28:46,780 --> 00:28:54,140 train there anyhow uh yeah well we'll put some some links to uh the the reports that we were going over 288 00:28:54,140 --> 00:28:59,740 and uh you know we also have i should mention there's a couple of things coming up we had vmware 289 00:28:59,740 --> 00:29:08,380 explore uh already in the us but the um the uh the the this part of the world the europe one is coming 290 00:29:08,380 --> 00:29:14,700 up the first week of november is that right ben yeah that's right and ed you were in the us uh maybe you 291 00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:19,580 could tell us how it was uh in a second but yeah that's right the first week of november i think 292 00:29:19,580 --> 00:29:25,820 it's november is it third through six something i think it might be sixth to ninth but again i'm not 293 00:29:25,820 --> 00:29:31,100 100 on that that's the right answer thank you if you just search for a vmware explorer eu it'll be in 294 00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:39,180 barcelona and uh uh i think we've got one in singapore haven't we so yes there's a lot of explorers 295 00:29:39,180 --> 00:29:44,460 going on and uh i'll i'll be i'll be involved in two talks there uh which will be nice and then ben 296 00:29:45,260 --> 00:29:52,860 you're going to be at backstage con which i am i'm really excited about that i can't tell you how 297 00:29:52,860 --> 00:29:59,100 excited i am about that it's going to be awesome yeah i mean that's you're giving a talk right you're 298 00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:05,420 not just attending your speaking yeah i've got a i've got a brief uh stint as a speaker at uh 299 00:30:05,420 --> 00:30:13,100 backstage con i think that is uh the day before cubecon starts proper right because it's one of 300 00:30:13,100 --> 00:30:21,260 the uh sort of uh adjacent conferences to uh cubecon in chicago in november yeah yeah and then and then 301 00:30:21,260 --> 00:30:26,380 also just the the last of things on october 9th we have a SpringOne tour in amsterdam where 302 00:30:27,180 --> 00:30:32,780 i will be there that's your hometown oh my word you'll be so in demand you'll be telling folks 303 00:30:32,780 --> 00:30:40,380 where stuff is and exactly i'll uh i'll be emceeing it and hosting the q a at the end and then uh we 304 00:30:40,380 --> 00:30:46,780 have a another SpringOne tour coming up october 12th in london uh so if you're if you're in amsterdam 305 00:30:46,780 --> 00:30:52,140 or uh or london and you're interested in programming and especially if you're interested in java or spring 306 00:30:52,140 --> 00:30:58,220 programming that'll be a great chance to just it's a good free educational event um and as i as i like 307 00:30:58,220 --> 00:31:06,300 to only not half joke i mean fully fully not as as i seriously it's a serious comment that is also a 308 00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:12,060 joke there you go that like you know it beats actually doing your real job but it's a legit 309 00:31:12,060 --> 00:31:17,100 like you don't have to take a holiday to go do it because it's a continuing education so you should 310 00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:23,340 definitely come to it uh since it's great and free well with that as always this has been uh tanzu talk 311 00:31:23,340 --> 00:31:29,740 if you want to get the show notes we mentioned uh see the conferences we suggested if you go to tanzutalk.com 312 00:31:29,740 --> 00:31:34,780 you can find this episode and see it or if you've watched the video you should be able to see it uh 313 00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:38,300 below there and with that we'll see everyone next time bye bye 314 00:31:41,260 --> 00:31:44,380 good job waving that was that was classic