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Well, this episode, I'm hoping, my two friends, to cover two topics.

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We'll see what happens.

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I always hesitate to label the live streams what we'll be talking about

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because in my experience, that doesn't always happen.

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And, you know, we end up doing stuff.

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But there's some hoopla, it seems, going on in the open source world

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at the Linux level, a level that I have very little familiarity with.

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So I know because you, Ben, actually know how open source works.

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And you work on Linux.

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So you might actually, like, have some more knowledge here.

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And then, Ed, you are paid to follow this kind of thing.

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So you two might be more wise about what's going on than my dilettantism.

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I tried to use that word with my son the other day while we were biking to school.

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And I was like, I wonder if he's going to ask me what that means.

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As if I, too, am a child who gets excited when I know some fancy word.

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But he was not impressed at all.

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Just acted like nothing happened when I said dilettante.

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Just kept going on.

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Didn't care.

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So I don't know if you want to incorporate that into the next episode of The Wobbly Life, Ben.

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But that might be The Wobbly Life dilettante.

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Yeah, are you still watching?

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Are you subscribed?

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I'm definitely subscribed.

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I mean, you know.

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Thank you.

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That's very kind.

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I don't always watch.

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I'm watching, I know.

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But I do enjoy every now and then when I peek into it, I'm like, oh, let's listen to that cute voice.

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That's great.

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It's like, it's a lot different than what I overhear from my sons, like, you know, watching streaming gaming stuff where they seem serious.

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Oh, we've got a blinder coming up.

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We've got a really good episode where we unlock some extras.

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So, yeah.

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Oh, some secrets will be revealed.

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Secrets.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Big one.

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It was very excited to record this one.

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It was good.

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That's good.

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That's good.

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Well, so the first item.

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And this, like I was saying, I'm looking forward to making sure I understand the stuff.

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Because, you know, I like to, as you can see in my show notes, which I don't know if I'll publish in our show notes.

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But I like to very detailed go through this stuff.

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And I think I'm more interested in the kind of reverse engineering, I guess, the strategy, but then also like the operational consequences, if you will.

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And now, correct my summary where I'm wrong, but you got Red Hat Linux, otherwise known as RHEL.

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And what's going on there is basically if you want to get the source code for Red Hat Linux, this is a little more nuanced.

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So maybe one of you can go over the nuance of it.

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But if you want to get the source code for RHEL, you have to either pay for a license or be in their developer program.

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And I think this is a change from it used to be you could just get the source code whenever you wanted.

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So there's all these, as I'm sure you can list off, Ben.

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There's all these distros of RHEL that are just free distros of basically assembling the source.

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And now you don't have to pay to get the binaries for it.

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And so changing this over, obviously, it's a big change in the way things are done, has caused all sorts of, I think, as the kids say, drama and things like that.

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But is that, first of all, is that kind of a fair summary of like what the switchover is, the policy?

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Do I have that right?

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I think so.

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It's quite a complicated topic, isn't it?

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Because it also goes back a few years.

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And I think part of the vitriol that you've seen over the last week or so is related to past injuries, where other decisions around things like CoreOS, for example, have upset communities, you know, Linux communities.

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And then, you know, that pain has never really gone away.

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So every time sort of Red Hat moves the goalposts in some way, they seem to be met with, you know, initially, at least, an awful lot of sort of resistance and derision.

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But it is, yeah, it's a complex story.

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It's got more to it than just one decision.

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It goes back through sort of a history of decision making, I think.

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Right, right.

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Yeah.

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And, you know, in the broader, we don't talk about this stuff a lot here on the Tanzu Talk, but it comes up on my other podcast, Software Defined Talk, a lot.

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Like, I think over the past, well, I guess it's like five years now, there's been all sorts of, I think, largely driven by the, you could call it, it's not a loophole, but the unanticipated capabilities that public cloud companies have with open source software.

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There's been a lot of trying to redo the norms and the legal language of open source software to limit what public cloud companies can do, right?

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And so there's been a lot of like tweaking and experimenting because, you know, it seems like ultimately in the, not ultimately, but in the open source world, one of the expectations, given the open name,

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is that basically you can get the code and run it for free and not have anyone mess with you, except, you know, depending on the license regimen that you sign up for.

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And especially when it comes to modifying the code and then, you know, renaming it and selling it and things like that, that's where the public cloud companies can do all sorts of stuff.

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Because I guess there's no trigger of distributing the code if you're just running it, which often in the open, in open source licensing, it's like, especially in the, the GPL, once you distribute the code, that's when everything kicks in.

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But I guess at some point, someone decided that if you distribute it over a network, that's not distributing it.

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So therefore, you're cool, essentially.

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Although, I wonder if, I mean, this is a total side note, if I understand what the web assembly is, that's effectively distributing the code down to a browser, right?

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But maybe not.

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So that's an interesting, fun thing to think about.

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Like, if you downloaded all of the code into a web browser, and you could turn off access to the internet and run it, it's kind of the same as actually downloading some app, even though it runs in a browser.

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But maybe we'll let someone else think about that at some point.

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Yeah, I think, I think Wasm is compiled, though.

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So it's not like raw source code, like a web page or some JavaScript.

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I think it's actually been compiled.

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Right, right, right.

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Anyway, so, yeah, there's all that going on.

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I think for me, this goes back like 20 years.

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If you think back 20 years ago, if you were a vendor of some software, there was always a risk that a vendor would go bust, right?

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So you'd be an enterprise, you'd go and buy some vendor software, like, you know, a database or a web widget, whatever it is.

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There was always a risk that you were buying into this thing that you didn't really, you couldn't really tell what was going to happen with the company behind it.

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So there was some risk there.

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And open source just became more and more popular year after year because it took away that risk.

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It was like, okay, well, all of our source code's in the open.

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So if anything ever happens to us, then you can just go and pick it off yourself and reuse it and expand it and fix any bugs that are with it, blah, blah.

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And that's how it all kind of started in the enterprise world, right?

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But then you fast forward 20 years, you know, that's not really a risk with Red Hat.

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You know, so the source code being in the open for them, I suppose from their point of view, they're now sort of seeing a different scenario where that openness is, from their perspective, being abused by folks who are doing very little other than repackaging the code and sticking a different name on it.

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And then shipping it in order to get around the fact that, you know, you perhaps would otherwise be subscribing to a REL license.

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Right.

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So I can sort of understand it from both points of view, you know, from Red Hat's point of view.

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It's like, well, if you truly need the source code, that's not a problem.

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Your subscription covers you and you can have access to all the source code.

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And that takes away, that mitigates the risk of, well, if anything ever happens to Red Hat, what am I going to do?

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Well, there's all the source code.

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You were allowed to have it because you're a subscriber.

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But the other folks who aren't subscribers, who are just using it to, you know, repackage it, stick a different badge on it.

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Yeah, that's not so easy for us to then keep pouring investment into that particular product.

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Because every investment that we put in, we only necessarily see some of the reward from that.

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You know, some of the reward goes elsewhere.

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So I don't know.

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I'm not trying to defend anyone.

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I'm just saying I can see both sides of the argument and they both seem valid.

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And now here's the part of this that confuses me and not confuses me as far as intention and strategy, but the mechanics of it.

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And that is, all right, let's see.

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Let's see.

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This is the first time I'm going to run through this with maybe some educated people's reaction to it.

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It sounds like the main issue is, well, there's two issues from what you're just saying, Ben.

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One is like, I would like to run REL, but I don't want to pay for it.

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And that's what, that's, I think sort of, like that starts to become not such a big deal.

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Because one of the points of running REL is that you, not only that it works, but that you get support from Red Hat, as with any sort of open source thing, right?

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So a lot of the kind of enterprises and organizations we would talk with, they're like, well, yes, paying for stuff gets you something, right?

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Like it gets you support, so that's fine.

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And so I don't imagine there's a tremendous amount of people running like REL that don't pay for it.

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I don't know.

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I agree because Red Hat already bundled up other alternatives that are free, like Fedora.

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Yeah.

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And then so, so, so there's that group.

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Now there's another group of people who are, let's call them like the community.

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And the community are both like people, like, like I'm sure at VMware, we're part of it.

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We support REL and we probably like want to certify our stuff.

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This shows the ignorance of I have with the rest of the company, which is embarrassing.

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But, you know, we, we, I'm sure we support various versions of it.

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So you've got to test with and try it out.

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Like, you know, make sure that stuff works as you would with any piece of software.

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And then there's smaller independent people, not in stature, but an organization size who,

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you know, want to test against it.

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We were playing around with your camera settings earlier, Ben.

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Maybe that person is like, I want to make sure it works on desktop REL.

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I don't know if that's a thing, but you know, all sorts of testing that people might want

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to do.

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So there's those people who are basically, let's call them developers and they want to test

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and certify what they're doing.

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Uh, against that versus the users of it.

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And so I think their issue is like, well, now I can't get access to the, the, the code

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without paying for it.

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Or, uh, there's a, there's another option where you can get a developer license, which

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is free to sign up for.

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And then my understanding is you can run 16 simultaneous machines with REL on it.

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I don't know if those are virtual machines or physical machines, but let's just go with

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machines.

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I could assume that you could have a big beefy physical one and run 16 virtual machines

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in it, whatever, simultaneously.

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And so like that, that seems.

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And the only reason, well, not the only one reason that would be annoying is if you were

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using one of these other, uh, like built REL things, which is not REL, but you know, the

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alternatives we were talking about, you've probably built out your, your pipeline and your, your

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build environment, all this stuff to like work with that.

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And now you would have to spend time to convert over to this other method of doing it, which

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gets us to the, why would you have to do this?

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And this is where I, I think I know what I'm talking about, but like, so normally if, so the

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other thing that I think they said is, let me make sure I get this right.

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CentOS, not CentOS, not core OS, which is another thing.

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But, but, but with, with CentOS, I think what the policy is, that's, I always get confused

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about the streams.

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Does anyone ever talk about right and left streams or is it only up and down?

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Like, just don't cross them.

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That's all, that's all I can.

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So, so it sounds like the new policy is that, so CentOS is upstream, which is to say it's

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where future development for, for REL is done.

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So at some point, I think twice a year, because there's two major releases for REL every year,

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it looks like, from my understanding, at some point, the, whoever's in charge of this takes

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the current state of CentOS and says, this is our May version.

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This is our November version.

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This is the major version that we have for this year.

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And then at that moment, CentOS is synced with REL.

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So you, you actually have like a code base of what the major version is available in the

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open source version.

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So in theory, on that day, you could take that source code and be in the same state that,

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that you would be today.

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But then the problem is, if the policy is that they only, I think sync is the wrong word,

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but if they only sync the code between their upstream CentOS and then REL, that means that,

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that in between time, you can't get that code, including, I would assume like patches and

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security patches and things like that.

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So like, basically you will, at any point, unless you want to pay for, use this developer

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thing, you will be like, let's say 60 seconds to six months out of date with the current,

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like the, the REL that people could have.

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So you wouldn't be able to fully certify your applications if the people you wanted to certify

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were on the most recent major release, essentially.

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And, and then that, that seems to be where there's like some annoyance, uh, that, that comes

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in among other stuff.

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But does that, am I talking crazy or am I somewhere in the right area of, of the mechanics of the

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stuff?

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So one area of confusion for me, which you, you might've done the research to answer this

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question, does any of this affect distributed binaries like the ISO?

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So the ISO that you would use to build your virtual machine or whatever, is that affected

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or is this just about source code?

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Yeah, I don't know.

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I don't know the space in enough detail to have done more research.

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Cause if it's just about source code, then it affects people who are creating distributions.

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Right.

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Right.

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Cause they want to, you know, stick a badge on it and say, here's my distribution and maybe

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add a few extra packages or even remove some packages, you know, depending on what they,

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what they want to do with their distribution.

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But if you're, you know, if you'll say like, you know, your earlier example, you were talking

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about, maybe I have virtual machines that I build out with Red Hat Enterprise Linux, right?

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You'd be doing that from an ISO.

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You won't be doing that from source code.

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Right, right, right, right.

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So that wouldn't necessarily be affected if the ISO is not affected.

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So it's an important point, I think, because it perhaps, perhaps sort of shaves off a whole

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bunch of folks who don't need to worry about it.

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But you would already be paying to access those binaries, wouldn't you?

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I don't think the, the real binaries were freely available.

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I mean, you can, there's lots of trials and like I said, there's this developer method,

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whereas the source code was freely available.

220
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I think that's the difference.

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So yes, if you just use, if you just consume rel as a binary, you don't care.

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You'll still get it however you've got it, I suppose.

223
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Right.

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And that's, I would assume that's why, that's why these alternate builds, you can easily

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get a binary from them because they've made the binary that, that I don't know how each

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rel ISO or binary is built.

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But I assume that the whole point of these alternate builds is that the, the, the ISO you would

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get from a paid Red Hat subscription.

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And then the ISO that you would get from one of these alternate things, it varies only by

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like name.

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And it's essentially the, the, the same thing, like all the way down to like default configuration

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and, and all this kind of stuff.

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And, uh, and so therefore like going back to, to, to my thing, it seems like people could

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still make those alternate binaries, but now they don't have like, but now they have to

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wait six months to get like perfect parody with, uh, with, with what the official rel thing

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is because there's only, because while, while, I mean, the, the, the way that, uh, development

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works is like, if you're doing a software release every six months, uh, which is what's going

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on in the, the CentOS thing, right?

239
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Like they, that's where the upstream development for rel is, which is to say the future versions

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of rel are done in CentOS, which is all in public.

241
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You know, you might decide in month two to like, I don't know, I'm going to be crazy

242
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here to like, make a point to just like remove IP four, right?

243
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Just like, we're going to remove that.

244
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But then you might decide in month five, no, we should put that back.

245
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So like, you, you know, you're, you're kind of messing around with what the features are

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in there.

247
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So if someone goes and uses the upstream stuff to build their distribution, it's not necessarily

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going to be what actually is in the major release.

249
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I don't know.

250
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I'm kind of confusing myself here, but, but that's the whole thing in reading through

251
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it is what, it would be one thing if, if it was as simple as like, now you can't get the

252
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source code so that you can build stuff.

253
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But then there's this whole thing, you can't get the code exactly, but you can get the code

254
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that from the future that, that, that will be the actual code, which, which seems really,

255
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I don't quite know as I think it was in the register article.

256
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They, they said, uh, uh, a way of thinking about it is it's a, a beta version of it, right?

257
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It's what, it's what will be used for the next version of it.

258
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But, but that, that makes my mind hurt as I'm demonstrating just looking at distro watch, um, according

259
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to, according to that website, distributions based on red hat, uh, there are 11, so there's

260
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11 distributions affected most, most recognizable names from that list.

261
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I, I think, uh, Alma Linux and Rocky Linux, uh, both mentioned quite a lot, but there's only

262
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11 of them, right?

263
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There's not hundreds and hundreds of them.

264
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Yeah.

265
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You got to wonder like, okay, you know, is it, is the policy just to stop, you know, just

266
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to make life more awkward for 11 other distributions doesn't sound like, I don't know if it's worth

267
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it, right, I don't know, it's, it's more of a philosophical problem in a way, as in people

268
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like the idea of open source, you know, free as a puppy, but it's the idea that you can create

269
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something and then a whole ecosystem can get built around it.

270
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And it feels like red hat going against that, right?

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Actually, if it's only 11 distributions, for example, who are rebuilding rail and making

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it available in other forms, other ways, none of them are, you know, $34 billion companies

273
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that haven't taken huge amounts of revenue off red hat.

274
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Um, so the argument has always been, well, they're just helping red hat, right?

275
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There'll be more people learning how to use.

276
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It's not rail itself, but it's rail compatible stuff.

277
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Maybe it's building tools on them.

278
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Maybe it's experimenting in ways that benefits rail as an ecosystem.

279
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And by clamping down on it, you're saying, well, we want our stuff and we don't want anyone

280
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else to add value as those companies would see they're doing.

281
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Um, and red hat saying, we're just saying, we don't think it adds value anymore.

282
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We used to think having that community around and other people, maybe just gaining familiarity,

283
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maybe just boosting the name.

284
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We think that'll help.

285
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Actually, we don't think that helps us.

286
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So we're going to stop it.

287
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And everyone else is, I think, looking at it and going, well, hang on, open source always

288
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kind of works that way.

289
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Like you put out Kubernetes, right?

290
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A core.

291
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Everyone comes up with loads of great ideas, builds around it.

292
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It, you know, what is it?

293
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,140
The, the rising tide lifts all boats and red hat are kind of saying, no, it doesn't.

294
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Right.

295
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Right.

296
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And that's, I mean, a lot of people like that idea and just red hat who are big and have

297
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a lot of influence saying, maybe not, is a bit of a kick in the teeth to open source

298
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as a concept.

299
00:20:58,060 --> 00:20:58,220
Yeah.

300
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And that's like, that's, I mean, you're, you're, you're bringing up the, the, the, the tricky

301
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part of, of open source.

302
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:05,620
I don't even know.

303
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,480
It's not so, well, I guess you could call it community management is like, it's really

304
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hard to change the norms of your community once they've been established, especially for

305
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decades.

306
00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:17,100
Right.

307
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And, and, and, and, you know, it's easier if you, well, easier, it seems like mentally

308
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easier if you have, uh, when in kind of smaller communities, but like for huge, big ones that

309
00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:32,200
have been around for a while, it's just like, no, no one likes their, uh, remember that

310
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old saying their cheese moved?

311
00:21:33,620 --> 00:21:38,500
No one likes cheese being moved around, which, uh, which is difficult, but you know, I'm always

312
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sympathetic.

313
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:43,880
It's, it's hard, uh, doing open source businesses or, or can be difficult, uh, especially if you

314
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:49,580
can't change things around, uh, very often, but I don't know, maybe, maybe I'll get, I'll

315
00:21:49,580 --> 00:21:52,360
get someone, I'll get some more clarity on the exact mechanics.

316
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,180
I asked my other community about it.

317
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,180
We'll, we'll see, we'll see what they say.

318
00:21:56,460 --> 00:22:02,040
Uh, maybe, uh, maybe as a final thing, I'm running Fedora, right?

319
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,780
I'm running Fedora on my desktop.

320
00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:05,640
I'm talking to you through Fedora right now.

321
00:22:06,260 --> 00:22:09,840
Uh, Red Hat Enterprise Linux is based on the Fedora.

322
00:22:10,020 --> 00:22:13,260
So, you know, it's an upstream for that particular project.

323
00:22:13,260 --> 00:22:18,960
So, so maybe that's, that's a, that's a good point to close out because glossaries are often

324
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:24,400
in the back is like, so what is, what's the difference between a Fedora and, and a CentOS?

325
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I think CentOS as well, also based on sort of Fedora and looking at, it's a bit of a, it's

326
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a bit of a spider web, but they, they both sort of share some stuff.

327
00:22:36,260 --> 00:22:47,980
Um, I think I view rel as what they, what they basically add to rel in my opinion is stability.

328
00:22:48,260 --> 00:22:54,880
So, so Fedora is quite fast moving and of course, you know, things can occasionally break.

329
00:22:55,220 --> 00:23:03,000
So they test stuff with the community in Fedora and in the sort of upstreams of, of rel.

330
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And then, you know, with the, with the idea being that rel then becomes more, um, stable as a result,

331
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,440
but perhaps doesn't have the same sort of bleeding edge features.

332
00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:23,120
Uh, so for example, Fedora was first to get the, um, Wayland, uh, window manager is recently moved

333
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:28,080
over, um, the sound stack over to pipe wire, I think.

334
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:34,320
So, um, they're the first to try out big new projects and try and integrate them into the

335
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,280
desktop in a, in a useful way.

336
00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:42,560
Occasionally stuff breaks that way, but I haven't experienced that, but you know, enterprises

337
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,900
might, so enterprises want something that's more stable and more proven, but perhaps doesn't

338
00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:50,520
have the absolute cutting edge features.

339
00:23:51,580 --> 00:23:51,880
Right.

340
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,740
It's, it's, it's the future, the, the, the, uh, the, uh, the upstream where experimental

341
00:23:56,740 --> 00:24:01,920
stuff can be put in and taken out and also can be buggy, which for an individual makes

342
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,880
it exciting, essentially get new features, get to play around with stuff.

343
00:24:06,380 --> 00:24:12,620
But yeah, CentOS is perhaps an alternative, maybe the problem there, not a problem, but one,

344
00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:17,540
one caveat being, um, it's because it's a stream sort of release.

345
00:24:17,540 --> 00:24:23,780
It's going to change quite rapidly compared to something that's got a slower release cycle.

346
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:30,020
So you would have to be prepared for upgrades and things over time more often than you would

347
00:24:30,020 --> 00:24:31,640
with something with more stable.

348
00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:32,920
Right, right, right.

349
00:24:33,060 --> 00:24:35,380
You, you, you know, you'd want stability as you're saying.

350
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:35,980
Yeah.

351
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:41,200
Well, that's for folks, for folks used to Ubuntu world, you know, in Ubuntu, they have

352
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:46,400
the LTS releases every two years, and then they intersperse those every six months with

353
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,440
slightly less stable, slightly more cutting edge, uh, releases.

354
00:24:50,980 --> 00:24:55,880
Um, Fedora is only doing those sort of six monthly release cycle.

355
00:24:55,980 --> 00:24:59,000
It doesn't have a two year LTS cycle, for example.

356
00:24:59,240 --> 00:24:59,440
Right.

357
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,120
It's just a pain we're all going to go through then.

358
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:03,740
Cause I've just seen, this is Tansy talk, right?

359
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,560
I mean, we, and probably most of our customers are used to very rapid churn.

360
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,620
Things do not stand still long in Kubernetes land, right?

361
00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:12,300
You went from what, four releases a year.

362
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,300
We've gone back to three releases a year.

363
00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:17,740
Now there's some moves to do long-term support in Kubernetes land.

364
00:25:18,220 --> 00:25:21,600
Maybe we're going to hit this same issue again of actually they do want slower, but everyone

365
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,920
should be used to the CentOS way of living stream, regular patching, regular updates.

366
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,460
That does seem like a concept that comes up every, every 10 or so years.

367
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,900
Now that was to confuse it more.

368
00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:36,120
That was sort of the philosophy of core OS a while ago.

369
00:25:36,260 --> 00:25:40,460
I remember when I was an analyst, I talked with him and I forget the name of the person,

370
00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:42,240
but they had people from the Chrome team.

371
00:25:42,980 --> 00:25:46,780
And I remember them when they were first a company, they were very excited about the idea

372
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that Chrome would auto update itself.

373
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,400
And they were like, what if you could do that for operating systems?

374
00:25:52,980 --> 00:25:56,720
And I don't know if that kind of panned out for like what core OS actually ended up doing,

375
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,440
but it was a, you know, it was an interesting idea.

376
00:25:59,860 --> 00:26:00,460
And I don't know.

377
00:26:00,460 --> 00:26:03,460
I mean, you sort of have that for your desktop machines.

378
00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:04,840
Yeah, you do have that.

379
00:26:04,940 --> 00:26:09,600
Susie has a tumbleweed, for example, which is a build that does exactly that.

380
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,640
You know, there's no such thing as a release.

381
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,660
You just sort of get an ISO, which they've prepared for you.

382
00:26:15,660 --> 00:26:17,540
And then you grow it over time.

383
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,960
You just, you know, run the usual updates.

384
00:26:20,780 --> 00:26:25,340
And there is no sort of release cycle with that.

385
00:26:25,740 --> 00:26:27,340
So, yeah, it already exists.

386
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:27,800
Absolutely.

387
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:29,840
Isn't that Windows nowadays as well?

388
00:26:29,940 --> 00:26:30,700
Like Windows 11.

389
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:32,320
Wasn't that meant to be the last big release?

390
00:26:32,380 --> 00:26:34,620
And then it would just be constantly iterated.

391
00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:38,260
I don't pay any attention to Windows anymore, but I'm pretty sure they've all gone that way as well.

392
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,700
It's definitely kind of like that.

393
00:26:40,740 --> 00:26:45,220
But I still think there are some sort of big bundles every now and again of new stuff.

394
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,400
I think they did like a Windows 11.1, didn't they?

395
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:54,260
I don't think they called it that, but I think they did, which added some new sort of stuff in there.

396
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:54,760
I don't know.

397
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,820
I think you're mostly correct, Ed, to be honest.

398
00:26:57,980 --> 00:26:59,380
I think that's pretty accurate.

399
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:06,680
Well, I think we have a lot new fodder for me trying to figure out this situation here.

400
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,740
Maybe over the next couple of weeks.

401
00:27:09,260 --> 00:27:14,860
Because it is, you know, like all of us, having been part of and followed the open source world for so long,

402
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:20,000
it's always fun to see little experiments and things happen, see what goes on there.

403
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:28,300
But Kubernetes and open source things, I think at least one of us, and I think that's Ed,

404
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,980
knows a little bit, has read a little bit about what Crossplane is.

405
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,460
Now, I know we do some stuff there with them.

406
00:27:36,780 --> 00:27:41,580
And also, I remember at KubeCon EU, they were interesting to talk with.

407
00:27:41,620 --> 00:27:50,320
But I haven't actually looked in and see what it does and, like, I mean, you know, it configures and runs some Kubernetes stuff, as it all does.

408
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,000
But what's your take on what Crossplane does, Ed?

409
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:55,400
What's the point?

410
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,320
I didn't go too much deeper than you, to be honest, and I did much the same of chatting with people at KubeCon.

411
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:12,460
But my understanding of it, so where I came into it from was, right, this is another kind of infrastructure as code and cross-cloud kind of way of provisioning resources in AWS, GCP, whatever.

412
00:28:12,860 --> 00:28:14,760
But it's all done through a Kubernetes lens.

413
00:28:14,860 --> 00:28:18,200
As you said, everyone wants a bit more YAML, so let's have a few more of them.

414
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:29,520
And obviously, it extends the whole, you know, CRDs, let's load a load of stuff, load essentially some sort of object models, right, into Kubernetes and say, this is how you understand an AWS S3 bucket or something.

415
00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:38,120
And I sort of thought, well, I think people have done that, I say historically, but, you know, they've done that pre-Kubernetes using things like Terraform.

416
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:48,560
And you can just have various providers and you sort of, I can't remember what the Terraform terminology for that would be, whether it's modules and things, but you could, in Terraform, just say, I want to spin up something.

417
00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:51,660
I'm going to write my code and then I can apply it to whichever cloud I need.

418
00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:54,580
And therefore, that's how I'm going to do a lot of my multi-cloud provisioning.

419
00:28:55,140 --> 00:28:58,240
And Crossplane just came along and said, we'll do that in a Kubernetes native way.

420
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:03,880
So actually, you still write your code, but now it's YAML instead of HashiCorp's configuration language.

421
00:29:04,540 --> 00:29:08,920
And we will apply the extension in Kubernetes or a native part of Kubernetes, so that's easy.

422
00:29:09,260 --> 00:29:11,840
Terraform had to kind of create that from scratch first time around.

423
00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:18,380
And a lot of the declarative nature, which is what Terraform was good for, and they were sort of early to that whole, let's do it.

424
00:29:18,460 --> 00:29:20,000
It's declaratively, not imperatively.

425
00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:22,460
Well, that, again, is going to Kubernetes.

426
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,000
So, again, happy days.

427
00:29:24,820 --> 00:29:27,520
And Kubernetes is rapidly becoming that control plane of home once.

428
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,420
They, you know, started off just being, this is how you run containers.

429
00:29:30,540 --> 00:29:32,760
And everyone said, actually, you can do a ton of stuff with it.

430
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,580
How about we have it orchestrate all these as well?

431
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:37,840
So it's just kind of slotting in.

432
00:29:37,900 --> 00:29:39,540
And, you know, it can work with Terraform.

433
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,120
That was another one, which, you know, several people pointed out.

434
00:29:42,180 --> 00:29:44,480
There's a ton of blog posts out there that show how to do it.

435
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:54,980
So because Terraform is all over the place, if you've already got a ton of scripts that do a provisioning for you, you can just kind of stick cross-plane above them almost and say, you know what, spin up all these.

436
00:29:54,980 --> 00:30:02,000
And you can use some of the Terraform codes to do the actual mechanics, but we act as the orchestrator, just as Kubernetes is as good as doing.

437
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:08,220
So you can have a bit of both better together if you've already got a ton of Terraform expertise, skills, scripts.

438
00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:13,580
If you don't, maybe you just start off with cross-plane and do much the same kind of stuff.

439
00:30:14,940 --> 00:30:21,120
And it feels like cross-plane are doing a lot of what I think Terraform did, where it all started very infrastructure-centric.

440
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,300
And now it's sort of building up to, can you compose things?

441
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,060
So can you actually say, like a three-tier app?

442
00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:32,180
In my very legacy part of my brain, something said, VApp, VApp.

443
00:30:32,300 --> 00:30:35,860
It's the whole idea of I want not just a database VM.

444
00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:38,480
I want a database VM and a middleware and a web app.

445
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,120
Well, I'll put three VMs, tie them together, give them a startup order, blah, blah, blah.

446
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,480
You know, Terraform did that with modules, so you could string things together into higher-level abstractions.

447
00:30:48,380 --> 00:30:50,020
Cross-plane lets you do the same kind of thing.

448
00:30:51,420 --> 00:30:52,560
It's all more flexible.

449
00:30:52,940 --> 00:30:54,640
Things have moved on a long way from VMs.

450
00:30:55,580 --> 00:30:57,940
I think most of our listeners probably have no idea why they are.

451
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,380
I don't remember them very well.

452
00:31:00,780 --> 00:31:02,760
So, yes, that was my cross-plane in a nutshell.

453
00:31:03,340 --> 00:31:08,320
You know, it seems like, I mean, I have a general theory of, like, whenever the infrastructure,

454
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:21,960
layer changes, you have to, not that you have to, but it's a common occurrence that the stuff above it is rebuilt to kind of, as I think you're indicating, too, like, think like the underlying infrastructure.

455
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:32,360
So, like, change in the way that you think about configuring and running infrastructure when you have Kubernetes in there versus virtualization ways of doing it.

456
00:31:32,820 --> 00:31:40,160
And so, perhaps the tools that you want to configure and deploy stuff on it, they also change to kind of fit with that way of thinking.

457
00:31:40,780 --> 00:31:55,720
And so, if you have the old infrastructure as code thing where you're writing out, this is the way that I want things to be, now go out and do it for me, then it would make sense with Kubernetes that you have a whole different system there that people are doing.

458
00:31:55,820 --> 00:31:56,620
But that's good.

459
00:31:56,620 --> 00:32:00,260
But that would make it easier for me to read a little booklet and figure out what's going on there.

460
00:32:00,260 --> 00:32:01,420
We'll see if I actually do that.

461
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,460
I like this idea of future me that I have.

462
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,160
Sounds like a very proactive, curious person.

463
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:12,080
That'll be good.

464
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:26,200
But, you know, there's, I'll put a link to it, but there's a couple of interesting in our space, like a Forrester Wave and a Gartner Magic Quadrant about, like, about DevOps platform things.

465
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:40,680
Like, like the, it's, I don't think, tell me if you agree with this, Ed, but it's basically the notion of a platform that your developers use to, like, build their code and even kind of monitor it in production.

466
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:47,400
But these two types of platforms that they define don't actually cover the runtime environment, right?

467
00:32:47,420 --> 00:32:51,740
It's only, like, the tooling around the actual platform.

468
00:32:51,740 --> 00:33:02,620
So something like a Kubernetes or even, like, an EC2 or wherever you're actually running the code is not included in these definitions that Gartner and Forrester have of your stack.

469
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:04,140
Yeah, pretty much.

470
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:09,760
They're, they definitely sort of cross, they do cross the streams, Ben, I think, as you said, very dangerous thing.

471
00:33:09,860 --> 00:33:16,040
But, but actually, they are, they are largely around anything to do with the sort of development into production side of things.

472
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:17,900
So that's why I look at the DevOps.

473
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:18,280
Right.

474
00:33:18,460 --> 00:33:24,200
They are beginning to cross into some of those reports kind of cover the tooling for when it's in that, what you do.

475
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,040
So a bit of it is around either do you do monitoring, like you said.

476
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,020
So it's not, it's not quite the throwout over the wall of here's how you get your stuff in and then you can forget about it.

477
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:34,360
It's here's how you get stuff in.

478
00:33:34,460 --> 00:33:37,620
How do you also manage it a little bit in production?

479
00:33:37,980 --> 00:33:40,220
So it's kind of all encompassing everything.

480
00:33:40,220 --> 00:33:44,360
I mean, it can be in a, it can be what's in your IT stack top to bottom almost.

481
00:33:44,540 --> 00:33:46,320
Can you deploy to Kubernetes?

482
00:33:46,580 --> 00:33:47,800
Can you deploy to a cloud?

483
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,220
Can you deploy to mobile platforms?

484
00:33:49,940 --> 00:33:53,820
And how do you monitor it once it's in to know your code's doing what you said it would do?

485
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:54,660
Yeah.

486
00:33:54,780 --> 00:33:55,060
Yeah.

487
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,200
Within some realm encompasses everything in IT.

488
00:33:57,820 --> 00:33:58,220
Yeah.

489
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,500
It's quite an ambitious ask to rate those kind of.

490
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:01,720
Yeah.

491
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:02,760
Yeah.

492
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:13,900
I mean, they're definitely, they're, they're interesting to read through because it is, I think, I think this whole, this whole, everything we just talked about there, like is kind of, we're trying to read, not, we're trying to figure out what it is now.

493
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,520
Like, like what a cloud native stack for that is.

494
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:22,620
And so there's these, these two analyst shops have kind of a go at it and then explanation of people who are up to it.

495
00:34:22,660 --> 00:34:23,920
So that's, that's fun to look at.

496
00:34:24,580 --> 00:34:26,920
But I think, I think that's, I don't know.

497
00:34:26,980 --> 00:34:32,680
I'm sure there's other interesting news things that have happened, but that's enough for us to go over this time, I think.

498
00:34:33,380 --> 00:34:40,940
And, and as always, if, if you want to check out the show notes, things we've referenced, you can go to tanzutalk.com and find this episode.

499
00:34:41,220 --> 00:34:42,340
I'll put links to it.

500
00:34:42,460 --> 00:34:46,440
If you, we, we live stream these on the VMware Tanzu channel.

501
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:52,220
If you're interested in that kind of thing, you can go look at that and you know, we'll see everyone next time.

502
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:52,880
Bye bye.