1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,420
Well, it feels like the old KubeCon was last week, but it's actually two weeks ago, I think,

2
00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,960
which makes, I've actually had that thought several times this week, and it made me think,

3
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,720
well, what did I do last week? I can't really remember. Do you, do you, do either of you two

4
00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:21,820
keep like a, like a daily log, journal, a diary? Not so much like, you know, your reflections on

5
00:00:21,820 --> 00:00:26,720
life and the passage of time, but more of just like what I did today, like, so that you can look

6
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:32,320
back and be like, what did I do last week? Because I don't remember. It looks like you do though, Ed,

7
00:00:32,380 --> 00:00:35,820
what's, what's your method? You know, mine is clearly very analog. Hopefully there's nothing

8
00:00:35,820 --> 00:00:39,940
confidential or even readable on there. Oh, it's, it's blurred out. So you're in luck. It is blurred

9
00:00:39,940 --> 00:00:45,080
very technically. Yes. Um, it's just, it's a way for me, I suppose, to try and focus. I'm not sure

10
00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:50,200
it makes me any better. Um, and my filing system is just a big pile of A4 somewhere there. You know,

11
00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,580
I've got it for like the last however many years, right? Six, seven years. Here's what I did this

12
00:00:54,580 --> 00:00:58,680
week. Here's last week. And that way, if, if I fail to record it and whatever system we're meant to be

13
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:03,460
recording in for whichever team you're in, I always, always know I've got something I could go back and

14
00:01:03,460 --> 00:01:08,140
say, actually, that's what I did over the last however many months. Um, interestingly, I find it's,

15
00:01:08,260 --> 00:01:14,180
it has to be a mix of work and out of work as in stuff I do for the kids, stuff you do. Oh yeah.

16
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,360
I kind of keep a note. So that way, if I end up looking at something and going,

17
00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,460
I didn't do much that day work-wise, but there's a huge long list on the right. It's like, right.

18
00:01:22,460 --> 00:01:26,100
I got distracted by car breakdowns or whatever it might be. Oh, right.

19
00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,200
Last week, my car broke down on the school run. So that was a bit of a hindrance, but, uh,

20
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,540
Wow. That's so admirable. I wish I did that. I try, I try to do exactly what you're saying. I have a, uh,

21
00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,680
depending on what editor I'm using that quarter, because you know, I'm always rotating my tools way too much.

22
00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:47,700
Uh, but I, I try, I keep, I keep a file called daily log and, uh, I like to put in, this is great for my to-do list

23
00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:52,700
management. Cause I have one to-do list manager. And then I also put to-do list things in the daily

24
00:01:52,700 --> 00:01:58,080
log file. Right. Uh, because, you know, I don't know about YouTube, but the thing with a to-do list

25
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:03,280
manager is after a few months, everything is due today. And so it's more of just like a reminder

26
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,500
place to have everything. Whereas in the daily log, it's actually stuff I want to do that day.

27
00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:12,560
But then what happened recently is I start rolling over the to-do list stuff. Uh, so, you know,

28
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:17,360
the eternal to-do list problem, but I, I, you're, you're inspiring me because I always keep my,

29
00:02:17,420 --> 00:02:22,580
my personal journal separate from my daily log journal, but I think you're right. It just has

30
00:02:22,580 --> 00:02:25,760
to be the same. Like you got to put all the stuff in there, right? Like, you know,

31
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,860
that bit of paperwork for me in that it's what I actually did in a day. No, that's what I should

32
00:02:30,860 --> 00:02:34,680
have done that day or anything else. And also the only thing that's ever worked for me is a bit of a

33
00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,320
four on a pen. Yeah. My laptop. Anything that makes sense. You know, like you said,

34
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,560
I've got to-do lists, I use to-do list. That's great. But stuff doesn't get entered into it.

35
00:02:43,740 --> 00:02:47,380
Whereas a bit of paper, I'm just like, I just spent 20 minutes doing this and jot it down.

36
00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:51,020
And it kind of just works. It's the only lightweight system that I've maintained.

37
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:56,040
A little captain's log, personal entry. Yeah. How about, how about yourself, Ben? It sounds like

38
00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:03,020
maybe you, you don't have a daily log. I've read so many times that it's a really good skill,

39
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,600
a life skill to have, you know, that it's good for your mental health as well. It allows you to,

40
00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:13,900
you know, focus, like you said, and also remind you of the things that you've been spending your time

41
00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:20,000
on and maybe give you an opportunity to change the balance and stuff. So I get it. I get, I get the

42
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:28,120
theory and the, and that's the practice. I just, I just don't do it. I don't even have a piece of

43
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:38,600
paper on my desk. Yeah. You could say that, but I haven't replaced it with like a to-doing app or

44
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:43,160
anything like that. It's like, okay, if people want stuff, they'll ask me for it at least twice.

45
00:03:43,820 --> 00:03:46,540
Yeah. There's, there's my, there's, there's my prompt.

46
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,600
Get a to-do list, Ben. I'll ask you again at the end and then you're done.

47
00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:54,500
Yeah. You know, I, I, I used to use...

48
00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:59,040
I wasn't an ask though. It was an order. Uh, I didn't do orders. Uh, no.

49
00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:04,800
I used to have this, I used to use this to-do list thing called OmniFocus, which is just like,

50
00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:10,380
like if there's something beyond a Swiss army knife, then that's what it was for like, uh, you know,

51
00:04:10,380 --> 00:04:16,840
for, uh, for to-do list management. And I'm realizing it had, it had three categories of a

52
00:04:16,840 --> 00:04:21,780
due date. One of them of course is nothing, just there's no due date. And then, and then of course

53
00:04:21,780 --> 00:04:27,080
there's the actual due date. And then it had this other category called defer, which basically,

54
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:33,860
which I never use, which basically meant don't show this until this date. And, and so I think

55
00:04:33,860 --> 00:04:39,260
maybe that's what I, that's probably how I schedule things more is, is I, I defer them. Like I don't

56
00:04:39,260 --> 00:04:43,420
want to look at it until a certain date. And that's why it always piles up with, with today.

57
00:04:43,420 --> 00:04:49,800
It's like, it's not like it's due today, but I need to be like aware of it. And, and at some point,

58
00:04:50,100 --> 00:04:55,260
at some point that CFP is actually going to be due today. So I want to make sure that I see it far

59
00:04:55,260 --> 00:05:01,280
enough ahead of time, but you know, to-do list management there. This also reminds me when I was,

60
00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:06,840
when I was a younger programmer, there was one person at the first programming job I had who showed me,

61
00:05:08,140 --> 00:05:14,860
man, I can't remember the abbreviation. It wasn't called TPS, but it was some system for programmers

62
00:05:14,860 --> 00:05:21,220
where every 30 minutes you were supposed to check in and log what you had done. And like after you

63
00:05:21,220 --> 00:05:26,300
can imagine, as, as maybe, you know, uh, Ed, after like several years of this, you could go do an

64
00:05:26,300 --> 00:05:31,360
analysis of how you're spending your time and how you're doing, you know, doing well at it. And it,

65
00:05:31,420 --> 00:05:35,220
uh, it seemed like something that you would have to use if you were like developing missiles in a highly

66
00:05:35,220 --> 00:05:39,640
regulated environment. And, uh, people would come in and want to audit how you spent your time and

67
00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:44,280
things like that. But I don't know, seemed awesome, but a lot of work.

68
00:05:44,500 --> 00:05:50,220
I do recall. Yeah. Some, some nineties management technique around that. Yeah.

69
00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:54,560
Yeah. Maybe it's like TST or TSRP. I don't, I don't know. Anyways,

70
00:05:54,940 --> 00:05:59,640
speaking of how we spent our time, Ed and I were at CoopCon and I know you watched it online, Ben,

71
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:05,820
uh, which, which is exciting, but let's, because I know what I did. Uh, so I want to entertain

72
00:06:05,820 --> 00:06:07,720
myself. What, what did you do while you were there, Ed?

73
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,160
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Do you though? Do you really know what you did?

74
00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:19,240
Well, maybe that's, that's more appropriate because I don't know what I did. I, uh, I can't go over it.

75
00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,660
And now we get to the truth of it. Fill him in on what he did.

76
00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:30,320
What was actually going on? Um, so actually, I mean, so my experience, it was interesting. I guess

77
00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,500
that's my first conference in probably three or four years, I think post COVID. I don't think

78
00:06:34,500 --> 00:06:37,860
I've done any others. And I couldn't remember when I went before one from actually, it's actually

79
00:06:37,860 --> 00:06:42,580
the one thing for me, aside from all the different technical KubeCon specific stuff was just nice to

80
00:06:42,580 --> 00:06:47,700
be mingling again. You know, I know a couple of people did get COVID there, but it didn't feel like

81
00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:52,980
a big deal. It just felt like life was normal. You can go back to a conference. It was a nice conference

82
00:06:52,980 --> 00:06:58,320
in that case. And in terms of being a big conference, you know, 10,000 people sold out. Um, it really

83
00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,360
reminded me of early VMworlds. And I say that, you know, I haven't been to VMworld for quite a few years.

84
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,220
I used to go all the time before I joined VMware, but once I joined VMware, there was no need to go

85
00:07:07,220 --> 00:07:11,780
paradoxically. Um, but it had that energy, it had that buzz in the air. This was my first

86
00:07:11,780 --> 00:07:15,540
in-person KubeCon. I've done a couple of the virtual ones. I don't think they count. You know,

87
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:21,520
there's no buzz in the room when it's virtual. Um, but exactly. You can feel the energy just looking

88
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:26,500
across floor. I mean, yes, it's a trade show, but it was still actually my first day. I got a bit of

89
00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:31,240
that buzz day one buzz. And it was like, Oh, I haven't had this for ages. So excitement. I don't know

90
00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:36,440
if you can say that for a tech conference, but you know, I'm a, I'm a geek, so it works for me. Um, so yeah,

91
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,400
I like that. I spent a lot of time kind of wandering around the solutions exchange. Um,

92
00:07:40,780 --> 00:07:45,600
because for me, KubeCon is an interesting one, I suppose, in that a, there are a ton of brand new

93
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:52,540
people. Um, and I've been brand new vendors, brand new solutions, apparently 58% of the audience

94
00:07:52,540 --> 00:07:57,680
were new as well, which I still find surprising. Um, but either way, I guess that's sort of where

95
00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,660
all the energy comes from. So there was a lot of like, who are they, what do they do? Um, and a

96
00:08:01,660 --> 00:08:07,120
slight feeling for me of I'm beginning to get a handle on it. Um, you know, I was sort of new to

97
00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,720
the cloud native stuff a year or two ago. I used to be able to turn up to VMworld, know all the

98
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,040
vendors, know a lot of the people, um, drop right into that whole community thing. And that was a

99
00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,340
brilliant sort of conduit to information and conversations and what's coming up. And I'm still

100
00:08:20,340 --> 00:08:26,200
kind of gaining that in the Kubernetes world. Um, so it was a nice way to sort of see who I did know,

101
00:08:26,260 --> 00:08:31,320
who I didn't know, how many I recognized, what was going on. Um, and to try and get a feel for

102
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,760
themes, right? Which I don't think you can ever do if there's 10,000 people and more breakout sessions

103
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:40,440
and there's never time to watch. You know, I've got a list of sessions I will probably never watch.

104
00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,380
I'd like to. And that was when I was there. I, each day I was like, right, what's on my schedule?

105
00:08:44,540 --> 00:08:49,920
These sessions, some of them I couldn't get in because it was just super busy. You get to them.

106
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,200
I got to one session about a minute beforehand. It was full. I, so I learned my lesson. I went to

107
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,360
next session 10 minutes early. It was already full. Uh, and it was like, right, okay, maybe I'll just

108
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,940
try and watch some of these virtually from a desktop somewhere because that might be easier than walking

109
00:09:03,940 --> 00:09:09,000
across a conference hall and not getting in. Um, or I'll catch up afterwards, which we will know

110
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:14,440
probably never happens. Um, but yeah, you know, I, I sort of got the same themes as everyone else and it

111
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:19,500
could be that self-fulfilling thing that I went there to look at several themes. So therefore the conference

112
00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:23,900
seemed to be all about them to me. Oh yeah. Yeah. And, and then, and then, you know, based on what

113
00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:27,740
you're saying it, you know, if, if you're looking around for a bunch of separate parts, then you're

114
00:09:27,740 --> 00:09:33,440
like, Oh, there's a lot of separate parts instead of like, which, which of course fits with like an

115
00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:38,780
infrastructure thing, like Kubernetes, right. Where there's, uh, all these different components with

116
00:09:38,780 --> 00:09:46,100
like, um, Oh, you know, depending on how community versus vendor you want to be with competing, like,

117
00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:51,620
uh, modules to fill it, competing plugins. Boy, look at me using vague words. I don't even know the

118
00:09:51,620 --> 00:09:57,180
Kubernetes terminology for like, you know, this thing fills in this component of, uh, of something,

119
00:09:57,180 --> 00:10:02,360
but yeah, it, it does seem like, you know, there's, there's like at least two options for each way you

120
00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:08,320
would do something in Kubernetes if, if not more. And, uh, and, uh, did you go to the community

121
00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:13,120
pavilion or whatever they called it where there's like, I mean, it's a bit mixed because I mean,

122
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,320
it's interesting, I suppose, KubeCon being more open source focused. So actually a little less

123
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:22,140
vendor focused, you know, there's not a lot in way of both sort of product updates, even in the

124
00:10:22,140 --> 00:10:26,660
keynotes, there is no big vendor coming on stage saying, ta-da, version X or something like that.

125
00:10:26,860 --> 00:10:32,140
Yeah. All sort of iterative updates. Here's how these projects are going. Here's how in general

126
00:10:32,140 --> 00:10:37,360
this ecosystem is working. Um, so going over to the sort of the area where it is all braced on

127
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:42,180
the, the open source projects was quite interesting. Less vendor pitching, obviously a lot more,

128
00:10:42,580 --> 00:10:46,900
here's where we fit in a lot more kind of better together stuff. You know, we work with this,

129
00:10:46,900 --> 00:10:51,520
we're hoping to do that with them. Right. There were a couple of sort of ad hoc talks on that floor

130
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:56,460
as well, which were interesting. So working groups will meet up just at those booths and it might make

131
00:10:56,460 --> 00:11:00,180
it to a schedule or something. Some of them were more informal. So it's not on a KubeCon schedule,

132
00:11:00,180 --> 00:11:04,140
but if you're hanging out in the right Slack channel, somebody says this group will be at this

133
00:11:04,140 --> 00:11:08,500
booth at two o'clock and we'll have a chat. And I dropped in a couple of those for like the,

134
00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:16,960
the app, um, SIG group. And it was literally maybe 10, 12 people tops. Um, just having a

135
00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,560
discussion around the booth and I felt a bit like an interloper because I'm not really someone who hangs

136
00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:24,880
out in those special interest groups or anything. Um, but did have an interest in them. So you're sort of

137
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,560
listening on the edge thinking is someone about to say, who are you, what are you doing here?

138
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,100
But actually they're all, it's all very welcoming. And if they're in, if you're interested,

139
00:11:32,220 --> 00:11:36,020
then you can just listen in. Um, I then tried to get into some of the follow-up sessions,

140
00:11:36,020 --> 00:11:41,420
but they were full. So, um, but yeah, I liked that sort of, uh, the project part of the floor.

141
00:11:41,540 --> 00:11:46,880
It was interesting to just see what was going on. Um, and that the advantages of like 40 booths

142
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:52,820
are all tiny and you only have to walk a hundred meters. I cover a lot of ground versus some of our

143
00:11:52,820 --> 00:11:57,660
conferences or others where it's in hall B across the road, catch a bus, you know, if you go to

144
00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:01,980
reinvent, plan half an hour to reach that one here, they're all there within three minutes walk.

145
00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:07,360
Yeah. Yeah. And, and there's also tons of stickers over there. That was very well coordinated.

146
00:12:07,820 --> 00:12:15,860
Did you get any of them? I didn't know. I'm a sticker free guy. I'm weird in that way. I see

147
00:12:15,860 --> 00:12:20,140
all these people throwing for every sticker. I kind of get the urge and then I know because

148
00:12:20,140 --> 00:12:25,000
they'll sit on the desk and I'll bin them. That's no good. You, you, you should get one sticker for

149
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,160
your laptop. That's like, I don't, I don't know what they do, uh, you know, over in y'all's neck of

150
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:34,120
the woods, but like no bills posted, like just like, like have, have that on there. That would be

151
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:39,160
hilarious. Well, yeah, I, I, uh, uh, I spent some time hanging out with my friend, Matt Ray from my

152
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:44,880
other podcast and he was at the, to the point I'm about to make, I'm going to mix up the names of

153
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:51,940
things. He was at the open cost booth and he works at Kube cost. And it was, he told me this would

154
00:12:51,940 --> 00:12:55,600
happen, but it was hilarious. Like I was there, you know, we had lunch and I was just hanging out

155
00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:01,500
and maybe about the time I was hanging out, maybe 15 people came over and always the first thing they

156
00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:07,480
said is what's the difference between open cost and Kube cost. And it was just, it was amazing.

157
00:13:08,820 --> 00:13:13,940
And then he would go over these two things. So it is like, but then also from, from that booth,

158
00:13:13,940 --> 00:13:20,060
I could see the Carvel booth, you know, we got a lot of VMware people working on there and, uh,

159
00:13:20,060 --> 00:13:25,640
that was pretty, pretty busy and interesting, but yeah, it's, it's fun to see the, um,

160
00:13:26,780 --> 00:13:32,440
activity amongst all the open source projects. And I was talking with someone, you know, cause we're,

161
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,920
we're in, in the business here, you're always speculating on this stuff. I was thinking like,

162
00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,840
you know, they should put the, the way they had the boot, the open source stuff arranged. It was

163
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,800
sort of like in its own little grotto, if you will. And, uh, I don't know, it seems like it should

164
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:51,060
have been more, more front and center. Maybe not, you know, we had a great booth of VMware near one of the

165
00:13:51,060 --> 00:13:56,640
two entrance doors. So those are, those are very sought after probably charge for positions, but

166
00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:02,400
you know, you could put the, uh, you could put the open source people in the center of the area there.

167
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,960
And that might be nicer. Who knows? That was lunch. You can't do that. Oh, that's true. That,

168
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:13,260
that, that was lunch. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably more the, the money side, isn't it? The vendor.

169
00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:17,760
Yeah, of course you have to walk through it to get to the other stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Which is totally

170
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:23,040
cool, but whatever. That's fine. You know what they should have is they should have like a sponsored

171
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,820
lounge area in the middle of the open source thing where you can like, you know, sponsored by well,

172
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,960
VMware, of course. And there would just be like really comfy couches and like things like that.

173
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:39,100
And lots of plugs that you could hang out in. And it would be like, it'd be a way to like have,

174
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,340
as people have discussions with the open source people, they could like, you know, little groups,

175
00:14:43,340 --> 00:14:47,580
they could move over to the comfy couches. And then it's also just like a nice little space

176
00:14:47,580 --> 00:14:52,320
there, which, which should be fun. That's my suggestion. I'll file that at suggestions

177
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:58,560
at CNCF.io, which probably has one of those replies that says, no one checks this email

178
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:05,460
box. Please do not reply back. I will say they, there were a couple of things that cropped

179
00:15:05,460 --> 00:15:08,400
up and I can't remember where, right? There's too many Slack channels and forums and things,

180
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,340
but somewhere I remember stumbling across a kind of feedback forms for things. And it was people

181
00:15:13,340 --> 00:15:18,820
complaining about sessions being too full. And, um, at some point someone was being overly

182
00:15:18,820 --> 00:15:23,520
efficient at closing doors to rooms and saying, no, this is full. When it wasn't, there were loads

183
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,900
of chairs empty and people were complaining. And actually very quickly, people from the CNCF

184
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:31,760
came back to it. People saying, hi, I'm partly organizing this and the other, you know, this

185
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,820
bit's out of our hands. It's being done by sort of health and safety on site who run the conference.

186
00:15:35,820 --> 00:15:39,580
For sure. And they got it all sorted and they got people, and you know, within a matter of hours,

187
00:15:39,580 --> 00:15:42,940
everything was being addressed. I got the impression they were very on top of things actually.

188
00:15:43,660 --> 00:15:48,820
Yeah, they are. They, the, the, the CNCF and the Linux foundation people are, are, as you say,

189
00:15:48,860 --> 00:15:54,120
very professional. Like I was there, uh, on, on a media pass through, through my other podcast.

190
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,900
So I, I went to some of the, uh, you know, like the press conference and then like the separate

191
00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:04,980
media sessions. There was one, you know, someone at the new stack wrote it up and somewhere else,

192
00:16:04,980 --> 00:16:10,020
but there was one on platform engineering. This is where they had vendor speakers. Cause they had,

193
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:18,140
they had someone from Red Hat, Hashi, whatever. And, uh, there was one other person, Git Labs.

194
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,960
And I think, I think they were on that panel talking, but then they also had like a, uh,

195
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,560
you could call it a customer panel, someone from Audi or however you pronounce that. And of course,

196
00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:33,680
CERN, CERN's always showing up to these things. Uh, and, uh, I think like some American

197
00:16:34,140 --> 00:16:39,020
bank or something like that was there on the customer panel. And, you know,

198
00:16:39,180 --> 00:16:43,400
one there also and everything on there. Yeah. Who, who was it? I forget. I forget who it was,

199
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,260
but like, I should, I should go back and watch that recording because like, I was, I was kind of like

200
00:16:48,260 --> 00:16:53,980
zoning out a little bit, uh, because it wasn't like they were, they were basically just talking

201
00:16:53,980 --> 00:16:59,000
about how well things were going. And I, I like, once I kind of hear that, like my mind kind of

202
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,000
disengages, cause I always want to hear the, like, you know, things we're doing best practices

203
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,800
we've come up with and things like that, but they seemed happy with, uh, their Kubernetes usage,

204
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:14,460
but also see if there's anything. I was going to say useful, but advisable to extract. What's that?

205
00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:18,540
I think I might've seen that, that panel. Um, was it part of the sort of keynote,

206
00:17:18,940 --> 00:17:23,680
the sort of start of the... No, it was like, it was like in the media conference thing,

207
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:29,280
but, but anyways, those were run very well. And, and as always with the media thing, there was a,

208
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:35,480
a better buffet lunch than the box lunches. They had the, uh, they had the, the, the well cooked

209
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:41,360
tender chicken, uh, chicken thighs section. You know, that's a very popular conference food to

210
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:46,680
have the chicken thighs. And of course the salmon with creamy sauce on it and, uh, some other unique

211
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:51,980
things. Uh, I knew I should have come and found you at the conference. You should have upgraded my

212
00:17:51,980 --> 00:17:59,680
experience. Yeah. How about yourself, Ben? You were watching remotely. So you actually, what are some

213
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:06,960
sessions that I, you know, just putting it out there, seriously jealous you folks getting to go

214
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:12,960
and to, uh, to experience that, you know, I have serious FOMO of missing out on that, but, um, I did

215
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:19,280
get to see it sort of from afar and, and a lot of the, um, the session videos have dropped this week.

216
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,920
So I've been, I've been, um, going through and picking out ones that I think are particularly

217
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:30,880
interesting. And, um, of course, cause VMware had a lot of people there. Um, I also saw the, uh,

218
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:37,600
sort of, um, collaborative notes, if you like, you know, everyone's into one doc and just sort of

219
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,320
puts their notes down and stuff. So that was brilliant. Cause that sort of, you know, gave

220
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,960
you an idea of what the, what the themes and stuff were that, that went, that was to interrupt you.

221
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,760
That was really good. It was like, I think that is the most extensive trip report notes I've seen

222
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:58,320
ever from a company. And, and it really added to the, I mean, it added to the, the overall sense of

223
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,400
like, there's a lot of stuff going on here because it was anyways, but that was, that was nice.

224
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,240
It's a better way to take a pulse of a conference, isn't it? The one person's opinion because

225
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,640
everyone sees different sides of it. So you get 20 people saying, here's what we see. And you get a

226
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,680
much more rounded view, even though it's probably still VMware centric, shall we say.

227
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,080
So I think that was really cool. And I think what I sort of, sort of took away from that and

228
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,040
sort of felt anyway, just, just looking through the, the, the video playlist,

229
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:32,480
for example, from the CNCF site is that this conference seems to be really more of a CNCF

230
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:40,480
conference. They still call it KubeCon, but Kubernetes is becoming, um, predictable and mature.

231
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,440
And it's getting to the level where you don't have to talk about it as much.

232
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:50,400
It's getting to the level right now.

233
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:50,400
And it's getting to the level of design.

234
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:50,960
It's getting to the level of design.

235
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:51,920
It's getting to the level of design.

236
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:52,400
It's getting to the level of design.

237
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,400
It's getting to the level of design.

238
00:19:54,400 --> 00:20:01,520
New, uh, has a lot of, um, interesting things going on, things changing fast and, and, and

239
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,280
changing for the better very quickly.

240
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,240
And I think that came through in the talks as well.

241
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,360
You know, the, the talks and the themes there, like I said, looking through the sort of show notes

242
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:13,200
doc that, that we made afterwards.

243
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:20,960
The themes were things like, um, wasm coming up a lot, eBPF coming up a lot and backstage coming up a lot.

244
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:27,360
You know, these are all sort of side issues, if you like, to Kubernetes itself, you know,

245
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:33,120
Kubernetes is becoming a sort of a, um, a nicely stable sort of predictable background.

246
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,200
Not that there weren't talks on that.

247
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:36,560
There were some great talks on that as well.

248
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:42,720
I saw a really good one that was about how to kill a Kubernetes cluster, which I thought was

249
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:43,840
a brilliant talk.

250
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:44,480
I saw that.

251
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,960
It was the first session I couldn't get in.

252
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,760
I got there and I was like, what?

253
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,520
And I, at first I saw these huge crowds and I was like, are they there for this session?

254
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,160
I thought this was a bit, bit niche, like an operator one almost.

255
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,000
And there was queues out the door.

256
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,840
And I was like, well, I'm not getting into that one then.

257
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,320
But obviously the idea, obviously a lot of people have killed clusters.

258
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,160
And I'm like, how did they do it?

259
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:04,560
Yeah.

260
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,840
And it was a, you know, it was a developer talk.

261
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,240
So it was about a sort of, you know, first of all, how an architectural choice can have

262
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,360
an impact on your needs from a cluster node.

263
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:21,600
And then secondly, sort of optimized settings and how sometimes maybe the documentation doesn't

264
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,840
really line up with what you actually want.

265
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:29,040
So it was a great, great session, a good example of a good Kubernetes session, right?

266
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,600
There's still lots of Kubernetes sessions, but there's just a ton of stuff going on all

267
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:34,080
around it.

268
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,800
And I think that's the exciting part, particularly for folks like myself, you know, with a developer

269
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,840
background and yourselves as well, because it's not just infrastructure anymore.

270
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,960
You know, there's a whole bunch of other stuff going on, talking about golden paths or talking

271
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:54,240
about, you know, how to do things like service mesh through eBPF and stuff.

272
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:55,840
So there's loads of stuff going on.

273
00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:02,480
I'm really jealous I didn't get to go, but I'm very thankful that the videos appeared online

274
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,240
so quickly while it's all still sort of fresh in everyone's mind.

275
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,440
So go ahead, have a look at the YouTube playlist.

276
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,720
And we've picked out a few I think we can put in the show notes as well.

277
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,520
So, yeah, go check them out.

278
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:16,480
Yeah.

279
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,880
And, you know, you're pointing out like a distinction.

280
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:24,000
And by we, I mean, all of us in this ecosystem and community or whatever.

281
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:29,840
But like, you know, I guess and people do this, but like, I guess we've all got to like start

282
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:37,040
thinking about Kubernetes as a core thing and then and then all the other stuff you layer on top of it.

283
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,240
Like it's almost like I don't tell me if you think this is fair.

284
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,040
It feels like there's some there's an increasing amount of things.

285
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,400
And I think Backstage is in this category that just use Kubernetes.

286
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:53,120
Like they're not really Kubernetes.

287
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:55,040
They just run on top of it.

288
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,320
It's more about modernization, I would say.

289
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:04,960
So, you know, Kubernetes is often part and parcel of a strategy of modernizing

290
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,960
in particular, you know, business moving to the cloud, doing all those sorts of things.

291
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:15,440
And alongside that, you have to change your development practices quite significantly in

292
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,680
order to make the best of it, in order to optimize for that environment that you're working in.

293
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:25,360
And Backstage is one of the one of the really good ways that you can do that across a large group of

294
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:26,720
developers.

295
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,400
So I think that's why it's it's there, really.

296
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,640
That's why it's sort of mentioned in the same breath.

297
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,440
It's because you can run your Backstage on Kubernetes, of course.

298
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,920
But that's not really what's being discussed.

299
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,520
What's being discussed is things like how do you offer a golden path?

300
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,040
How do you document well?

301
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:53,440
How do you make things easy to create and manage and explore?

302
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:53,680
Right.

303
00:23:53,680 --> 00:24:00,800
How do you how do you do these things inside the the walled garden is your enterprise when you have

304
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:06,880
hundreds of developers possibly working in in lots of different locations, you know, remote locations?

305
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,680
How do you bring all that information together in a useful way?

306
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,440
So I think it's it's right to be there.

307
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,280
But it it's another case of sort of it's a CNCF conference.

308
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,920
Now, it's like you said, there's a lot of open source there.

309
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:27,440
There's a lot of other stuff going on that's sort of around the sides of the of the of the, you know,

310
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,600
Kubernetes singularity that's in the middle.

311
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,760
But there's all this sort of galaxy of stuff going on all around it.

312
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,920
We see that in the co-located days, right?

313
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,640
That's a whole day before the conference begins now.

314
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,760
And that's with security already taken out and running to its own conference.

315
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,200
And you can easily see then, you know, fast forward a little bit.

316
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,240
Those co-located days become more events on their own.

317
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,320
And suddenly, actually, the KubeCon piece could eventually shrink down to being a lesser core

318
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,080
because it's all around the sort of trimmings around it or like you said,

319
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,400
everything's sort of growing up and moving up the stack a bit.

320
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:01,760
Exactly.

321
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:07,120
Yeah, like and as as you're I guess I guess you two are reminding me that it's the it's the

322
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:11,120
cloud native computing foundation, not the Kubernetes native computing foundation.

323
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:12,080
Right.

324
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,080
And so like and that like I don't know enough about WebAssembly and stuff,

325
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,760
but that would be another example of like, well, this isn't like a Kubernetes thing per se.

326
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,160
It's its own thing and it's a cloud native thing.

327
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,800
And so therefore it belongs in the CNCF.

328
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:32,800
And then like you were saying, Ed, like eventually there's like KubeCon versus cloud native con.

329
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,960
And it's just Kubernetes is just another thing in that umbrella, which which is,

330
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:42,720
you know, that's great for the CNCF as far as its magnitude, which I think,

331
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,600
you know, people like magnitude.

332
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,800
It's good to be a large, a large growing organization.

333
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:55,280
I got to hang out with some of the CNCF people and they well, one, they seem to have nice jobs.

334
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,440
So they're they're well taken care of.

335
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,520
So good job on the Linux Foundation.

336
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,520
And then two, you know, they're they're all cheery people.

337
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:04,880
It's it's it's fun.

338
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,880
They're they're happy, happy.

339
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,600
They don't really complain a lot or have bad things to say.

340
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:14,160
They're not like, you know, there's certain areas of the open source world where it's all about like

341
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:21,760
like talking about how, you know, there's evil out there that that must be defeated with the open source toolkit,

342
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:27,680
which is not nice to not be around when possible.

343
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,800
Well, narrowing down to KubeCon, although maybe when we do this survey next year,

344
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,480
we should take into consideration Kubernetes versus cloud native.

345
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,800
But I think we talked about this a little bit last time, but we finally finally it seems like finally,

346
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,560
if you work on it for a long time.

347
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:50,640
But we finally published our own state of Kubernetes survey, which I have written.

348
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,720
Only one blog post has been published so far, but I was asked to write three of them.

349
00:26:54,720 --> 00:27:00,880
So I've spent a lot of time looking over the PDF and taking screenshots of it here and there.

350
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:06,480
And, you know, well, one, if you're listening to this, you probably would be interested in it.

351
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:07,360
So you should get it.

352
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,840
And if you go to the show notes at TanzuTalk.com, you can download it or you just search for

353
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,600
state of Kubernetes 2023.

354
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,600
But I think I'll just call out a couple of things that I thought were interesting.

355
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:23,520
One, you know, I was surprised that we do this, but we've actually done it for several years.

356
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:29,600
We actually put in like the survey results of market share and including us, like all the

357
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,400
I don't know what to call this anymore.

358
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:37,200
Maybe, you know, from your reading, Ed, but like the public cloud hosted Kubernetes services.

359
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,080
I don't know if that's managed Kubernetes service.

360
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,560
It's just weird to say public cloud, but whatever.

361
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:48,320
All the KSs that are there, the star KS and then the on-premises ones.

362
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:55,840
And I think if you were to look at our friend VMware Tanzu, our Kubernetes stuff, it goes up.

363
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,480
I should have the chart in front of me, but like four to five percentage points, if not more,

364
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:01,440
every year.

365
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,400
So you see it climbing the rankings there.

366
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,920
I think 14 to 20 to 25 to 29.

367
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:08,320
There you go.

368
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:08,720
Yeah.

369
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,720
Did I do my math approximately right there?

370
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:12,720
Bang on, bang on.

371
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:12,880
Yeah.

372
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:13,280
All right.

373
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:13,600
Good.

374
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,320
I've, I've, I've built up an intuitive sense of charts.

375
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,160
I used to, I don't know if I've told you all this, but when I was doing a strategy,

376
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,400
I, I wanted to have some programming because sometimes, you know, you'll get a chart and

377
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,720
they remove the numbers off of it because they're being.

378
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:28,400
Yeah.

379
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:29,280
Secretive.

380
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:30,080
Yeah.

381
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,360
And, and I was like, you know what we need is we need a pixel counting thing

382
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,760
where you could put, you could put a chart in there and it would count the pixels and

383
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,440
then you could actually get numbers around it and estimate, you know, to see, that reminds

384
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,360
me of something else that I saw on Twitter today, which is a year progress counter.

385
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:48,960
And just every day, that's all it is.

386
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,520
It's one gif of like, okay, we're up to 24% through the year or whatever.

387
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:53,920
Oh yeah.

388
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:54,640
That would be fun.

389
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:57,280
Sorry.

390
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:57,920
I interrupt.

391
00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:58,320
Go ahead.

392
00:28:59,200 --> 00:28:59,600
Anyways.

393
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:00,880
Yeah.

394
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,280
I think I, as you know, the rankings, I think, you know,

395
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,160
it's a, I think it's always interesting, always interesting.

396
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,080
Well, it is always interesting that.

397
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:15,280
That Amazon is always the number one in Kubernetes stuff, because if you watch the Kubernetes documentary,

398
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,560
basically Kubernetes was made as a competitive.

399
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,880
Gambit against Amazon.

400
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:27,120
And then also Amazon never shows up in the Kubernetes documentary, except as a drone shot of one of their

401
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:27,600
buildings.

402
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:33,680
So it's always this, like this shadow figure in the background of the Kubernetes documentary looming there,

403
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,400
like this untouchable unknown thing.

404
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,040
This.

405
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,720
Well, yeah, but they sold them the drone and the camera.

406
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,400
All the memory cards, all the dollies, the lighting.

407
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:48,720
Yeah, that's right.

408
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:49,120
That's right.

409
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:49,200
That's right.

410
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:58,240
Anyhow, it's obvious that Amazon has fully embraced the Kubernetes thing and vice versa,

411
00:29:58,240 --> 00:29:59,040
as far as the market.

412
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,240
And then I think, I forget.

413
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,160
It's close though, isn't it?

414
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:02,880
I'm looking at a chart.

415
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:03,440
It's close.

416
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,840
Like, AKS is right there.

417
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,320
Like, you can get a piece of paper between them.

418
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,000
So, you know, it is close.

419
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:10,800
Yeah.

420
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,400
It's not like it's got a runaway.

421
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,200
And then going down there, OpenShift occurs.

422
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,600
And then I think we're right under OpenShift.

423
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,360
And then you have the Google one.

424
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,560
Yeah, GKE, then Rancher, then IBM.

425
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,920
And then I guess there's another thing to highlight,

426
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,040
highlight, to point out about the survey that I think is really valuable for what I care

427
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:34,240
about is, it's basically, I would say it's for large organizations.

428
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,560
And if I remember, it's like, this goes to Ben's joke about like,

429
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,480
do I really remember what I did at KubeCon?

430
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,720
Do I really remember these three blog posts that I wrote?

431
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:44,000
No.

432
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,720
But it's basically, it's organizations of 1000 or more people.

433
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,560
And then it skews very heavily towards much larger organizations,

434
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:55,680
which I think is great, right?

435
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:01,680
Like, because it means that, well, it's great, because that's the kind of people I talk with,

436
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:02,720
large organizations.

437
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:08,080
So these trends are a lot more reliable for what big, big organizations, big companies,

438
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:13,760
and other people are doing, which I think makes the market share stuff more interesting.

439
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:14,880
But how about yourself?

440
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,840
I know you all have read the survey in detail, probably put it on,

441
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,280
print it out on A4 paper, highlighted it, you know, little notes.

442
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,360
What did you think was interesting in there?

443
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:27,840
Much same.

444
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,040
I mean, I was looking at the market share stuff, because I've seen sort of flex errors recently.

445
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:38,320
And there was some news at KubeCon about IBM making layoffs, this, that, the other.

446
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,200
But, you know, therefore, you kind of, I'm always trying to match up in my head.

447
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,400
How is this working out?

448
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,240
Do these surveys agree?

449
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:45,120
And they never do, right?

450
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,680
Different vendors, different analysts, there's always different figures, pick your audience.

451
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,640
But then largely looking at those sort of adoption figures was the one that I find interesting.

452
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,600
But actually, you know, there's, there's almost never a great takeaway.

453
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:03,040
I mean, I guess, like I said, looking at AKS versus DKS, they've all been in the lead for a long time.

454
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,320
Oracle's IBM's always come in somewhere at the back.

455
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:08,960
I like to absorb them all.

456
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,200
But actually, does any of them change my worldview or how things work?

457
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:14,240
Not a lot.

458
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,760
But yeah, the other thing, I guess, is just that there's still a lot of that middle ground.

459
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,880
By which I mean, platform engineering, where does it go next, application platforms, that kind of thing, right?

460
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,520
That's still a gap being filled.

461
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,360
And therefore, you know, does it actually have that impact on speeding up developers?

462
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,560
And it's whether surveys show whether that, how that bit is developing.

463
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:37,920
And is it working?

464
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,000
Everyone thinks there are still benefits there.

465
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,560
I'm just not sure they've been fully realized, which I wouldn't expect that space is still immature.

466
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:45,520
We're still figuring out.

467
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:51,680
Everyone, I think, sees the benefits of Kubernetes, whether it's an operations level, whether it's for developers.

468
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,600
It's just whether that's how quickly it's going to really work.

469
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:56,720
Yeah.

470
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,240
That's where my mind is focused at the moment.

471
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:01,360
Yeah.

472
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:01,600
Yeah.

473
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,640
We didn't publish too much on this in the survey, but I look for this in other surveys.

474
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,720
Like, it's always interesting to weigh.

475
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:11,840
What's the word?

476
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:19,120
Like, hopes versus reality, like, or, you know, a for ahead of time perception.

477
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,000
Like, these are the things we think will like why we're interested in this.

478
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,560
And then, like, check in a year later and see what benefits versus achievements.

479
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:27,120
There you go.

480
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:32,560
And I think this year we started with a little bit in the survey, like, asking about, you know,

481
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,920
business benefits, which, you know, you were kind of alluding to this.

482
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,320
We're relatively small at the moment.

483
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:43,520
But I think it gets to the point of, like, everyone has big hopes and dreams.

484
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,160
And we'll see how it pans out.

485
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:47,120
Right?

486
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,640
So it's hard.

487
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:49,520
It's hard for people.

488
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:55,920
There's not enough people around who have used it for long enough to have much to say about long-term

489
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,160
hopes and dreams to reality matchment matching.

490
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,000
But it's a very positive survey, though, isn't it?

491
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,760
Like, you know, you look through it.

492
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:05,760
It is.

493
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,000
And that's what struck me about it.

494
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:09,760
It's very positive.

495
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,080
And there's a lot of progress being made.

496
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,200
I think that the two things that stood out for me is a lot of progress.

497
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:21,760
Nine out of 10 saying that they agree that cloud technology, including Kubernetes, is transforming the

498
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:27,280
way the business operates, like, that's a really positive endorsement of all the things you've

499
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,920
been saying for years, right, about how moving to cloud helps you transform your business,

500
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,040
helps you modernize, gives you that flexibility and that freedom.

501
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:43,600
So I think it's good to see survey respondents bearing that out across, you know, a broad sample set.

502
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:50,320
No, I think like you're saying, I think the summary that Ed was looking for is the arrow is still going up.

503
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,840
Yes, up and to the right, up and to the right.

504
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,440
It's a very long, rambling version of that.

505
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:55,680
Yes.

506
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,040
It might be a slightly, like, squiggly arrow.

507
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,520
But generally, if you were to draw a straight line through it, it's going in the positive direction.

508
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:05,040
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

509
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:11,920
The other thing that interests me is there's a line at the end around three-quarters of folks in the survey

510
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,560
saying that they're utilizing multiple clouds.

511
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,720
That seems like a good, healthy, large number.

512
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:22,160
And it sounds like multi-cloud is becoming the norm.

513
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:28,720
But it also sounds like there are 25%, you know, a quarter who aren't there yet and on,

514
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:35,520
you know, making the best of different vendors for different strengths and being able to,

515
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:43,680
you know, spread their bet across multiple clouds so that they have some shielding from,

516
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:50,560
you know, price hikes or, God forbid, one of the cloud vendors perhaps deciding not to do it anymore

517
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,640
or whatever, right?

518
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,800
Because at some point, there could be some consolidation in this market, right?

519
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,840
So if you've got all your eggs in one basket, maybe that's not a good thing.

520
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:05,280
So it's interesting to see that, you know, three-quarters are smart to that and are actually,

521
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,600
you know, trying to use multiple clouds at the same time.

522
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,120
Yeah, and that angle's the, that's the angle.

523
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:16,400
That's the one, the blog post that's actually out, which, you know, again,

524
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,240
you can check the show notes listeners to read it.

525
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:23,200
But like, I was, as I was reading over this morning, I was realizing the only reason I ended

526
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,920
up writing that blog post is so I could get permission to use this great IDC slide that I found.

527
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,240
Like there, there's two, there's two great analyst things I found in this writing up project.

528
00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:38,640
One of them is this IDC slide that shows basically, I think it's four quarters of a survey.

529
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:39,280
I don't know.

530
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:45,840
I'll have to go look, but it's basically four data instances of something like 7,000,

531
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:52,400
a lot of thousands of respondents saying like what percentage of their applications run

532
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:57,360
on what type of infrastructure, like through traditional on-premise managed hosting,

533
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,680
public cloud, private cloud, blah, blah, blah.

534
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,640
And like to the multi-cloud point, you look at it and you're like, all right,

535
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,160
everything runs everywhere pretty consistently.

536
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:13,280
Like things, things kind of shift more away from on-premises, but like quarter over quarter

537
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:18,960
or whatever the period is in this IDC survey, like there's just a lot of, I wouldn't even call

538
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:19,920
it multi-cloud.

539
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,960
It's just multi-infrastructure is sort of like the reality of what's out there.

540
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:30,800
And then the, uh, the second thing that, that, well, we actually have this in a license survey,

541
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,040
but I finally was, I was digging around and there's an estimate from Gartner about the number

542
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:41,280
of applications that run on Kubernetes, which I think, uh, in, uh, in, in 2021 or so was,

543
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:48,400
what is it like, it's basically, it was 10% in 2021 and they estimated to go all the way up to 25%

544
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,240
in 2027, which is 20, that's four years into the future.

545
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:55,280
And so like, even, even at that point, right?

546
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:02,000
Like it's, it's, um, and you know, not to try to pull the arrow down or whatever, but it shows some,

547
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:07,760
a point I think you were making earlier, Ed, that things are like, uh, early, if you will,

548
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:13,280
that even in four years from now, if only 25% of applications are running on this, this thing,

549
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:18,320
then it means that like, there's still a lot of development and work and figuring things out,

550
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:24,160
uh, in the future. And, you know, since, since, since, you know, Ed, how, how did this play out in

551
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:31,360
the, uh, the VM world, uh, world? Cause VMware, like, I forget when the workstation thing came out,

552
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:37,120
that was like 2003 or so somewhere around there. Yeah. Yeah. And then how long do you think it took

553
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:42,800
for, for us to have this, like, ah, everyone uses VMware sort of like kind of forever. Well, I mean,

554
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:49,600
there's still the odd outlier now, but, um, a good 15 years, I'd say, I mean, 10 years for probably the

555
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:56,720
mainstream, right. By, by 2015, most people had most things in VMs were still some outliers and,

556
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:03,760
you know, a few cases, but mostly 10, 12 years. Um, yeah. And even then, I think if you took the

557
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:09,040
same surveys, how many workloads around in VMs, you'd still be talking about 50, 60%, because you've

558
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,920
still got the mainframes, some other stuff, some niche cases, some industries, regulations, there's

559
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:19,920
always pockets, you're never going to get massively high. Um, but yeah, it, it just takes a long time,

560
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,880
even once everyone figures out it's good, because a lot of companies obviously aren't

561
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,120
replatforming everything all the time. And I, yeah, when we re-architect that system in five

562
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,360
years, we'll put on Kubernetes in whatever shape it's in in five years from now, but they're just

563
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:38,080
not in a rush to do it. Um, yeah. So, yeah, I think, I feel like I need a curated museum

564
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:44,240
tour of the VMware museum or something where we get to find out when certain things came to market and,

565
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:48,480
you know, how they did and stuff. I, I find that really fascinating. If there's any listeners out

566
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:54,480
there already know of a curated virtual VMware tour that you can take, maybe it's in some national

567
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,880
archive somewhere or something, then, uh, then get in touch and let us know and we'll share it.

568
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,240
I remember we've had loads of internal timelines, haven't we? And I remember we had some up at

569
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:06,880
VMware, like, you know, they were the big walking between Moscow name, Moscow name, what is it? A and B

570
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:13,600
or whatever there was, were these posters with various timelines of either product releases or

571
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,560
technologies and that sort of thing. Um, and we've got an initiative running at the moment internally,

572
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:24,640
haven't we? To get stuff to the, um, the computer history museum. Yeah. So that we're, yeah.

573
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:32,880
I recently got my 25 year VMware t-shirt, which is, you know, I've not been at VMware for 25 years, but

574
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:39,040
two and a half years, maybe something like that. But, but it's like, oh my word, there's all this history.

575
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:44,240
I need to find out more about this history. It would be a fascinating, uh, be a hell of a YouTube

576
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:49,280
video as well. I reckon the history. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, maybe we have one of these,

577
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,200
especially because of that 25 year thing, but every now and then big vendors will have like, you know,

578
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:59,200
the, the big vendor.com slash history site where I, I think some had one of these that was fun. And,

579
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,440
and you know, it's probably nowadays would be one of those things with that really annoying

580
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,560
scrolling where things just like pop up all of a sudden, you're just like, ah,

581
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:14,560
I just want to scroll a static webpage. Get out of my face. I remember I saw one, I forget what it was

582
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:20,800
for, but I saw one long ago and that had, um, instead of, instead of vertical scrolling, it was

583
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:26,800
horizontal scrolling on a webpage. And I think, I think for a week afterwards being like a web native

584
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:32,160
person, I was just like, my mind is broken. You're not supposed to have horizontal scrolling on a webpage.

585
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,640
I don't understand what's happening here. Like I wasn't told I needed my track ball to,

586
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,160
to like read this webpage.

587
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,160
I don't think that would work on my cell phone, my, uh, my smartphone.

588
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:42,800
Oh yeah.

589
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,960
Because it's got swipe right gestures and swipe left gestures for the OS itself.

590
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:48,800
That would be, that would be madness.

591
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,000
Yeah. That would just be crazy. I would never get to the end of it.

592
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,960
Well, it's more the problem, isn't it? The history of, um, and your associations,

593
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,400
it's like scroll right, but that means discard for me. That's archive, you know,

594
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,200
swipe left to tell you the meanings.

595
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:08,080
I mean, I think we're finding out more and more about, uh, ads, uh, Tinder.

596
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,400
Or, or at least his email habits.

597
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:13,440
Yeah. Yeah.

598
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:13,440
Yeah.

599
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:22,160
Well, I, I think, I think, I think finally, I'll mention before we close out, there is, uh,

600
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:26,800
uh, I, I, I gave some review input on from some of our old pivotal,

601
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,280
not all of them were, uh, uh, from pivotal people, but, but some of the people who worked

602
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:36,160
on this were some of our pivotal friends from, from way back when, you know, two years ago.

603
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,520
Uh, but they, they've been working on a, uh, platform, uh, maturity model, which,

604
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:46,160
you know, platform engineering maturity model paper that they've, uh, submitted to the CNCF.

605
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,000
And I think it's, uh, I, I do remember this one because I looked at it this morning.

606
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,680
Uh, but I'm, I'm going to, over the weekend, I'm going to think about the fact that I forget

607
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,720
things that I work on and, uh, see, see what I can do about that.

608
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:01,600
Uh, you know, I met, I met one of my coworkers, uh, Whitney, her and her son were in town.

609
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,040
And I found out that she uses whatever this method is.

610
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,040
She uses flashcards, the kind of flashcard thing where if you get it right, it shows you

611
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:10,160
like seven days later.

612
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,400
And then if you get it right again, it shows you like a month later that you have reinforced,

613
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,440
uh, flashcard learning.

614
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,000
And, uh, it's kind of, kind of amazing.

615
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,880
She was like, yeah, that's how I learned all this Kubernetes stuff.

616
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,320
Just, uh, flashcards.

617
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,280
So maybe I should do that.

618
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,520
I'm not sure, but this paper was on your shortlist, isn't it, Ben?

619
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:30,720
Yeah.

620
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:30,960
Yeah.

621
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,560
I've got a flashcard on that somewhere.

622
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:39,120
But, uh, I, I think, I think this platform maturity model paper is worth looking into because

623
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,120
it's, it gets to another area.

624
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,040
Like when I talk with, you know, executive people at large organizations, like part of

625
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:50,480
what kind of like the discussion we are just having, like part of what I want to encourage

626
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:56,720
them to think about is planning out how you're going to do all this magic cloud native stuff.

627
00:43:56,720 --> 00:44:01,280
And then, and then also learning from the other way that people have like gone through the

628
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:06,960
process, speaking of scrolling to the right or whatever, like, and, and most, you know,

629
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,320
most, most, um, what's the word?

630
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,280
Pragmatically thinking like, oh, this is going to take a long time.

631
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:16,720
Right.

632
00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:19,760
And so like, that's, that's one of the things maturity models are great for.

633
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,680
Cause it lists out, I think there's five phases and it's basically like, here's the

634
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:29,040
phases and the activities that you will doing kind of like the smells of maturity, which having

635
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:34,000
a nine and a 13 year old, I'm, I'm re familiarizing myself with the smells of maturity.

636
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:41,280
But you know, you've got, you want to know the smells of maturity as, as, as you're going

637
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,320
through there, which I think this paper will give you a sense for if you're putting like

638
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,640
a platform, uh, thing into place.

639
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:53,600
And thankfully these smells are not necessarily bad smells, uh, or, or whatever, but you know,

640
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:55,840
so there you go.

641
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,800
Uh, there's your smells of maturity episode.

642
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:04,240
Uh, and, uh, if you want to get the show notes for these, you can go to tonsutalk.com and we also

643
00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:05,680
broadcast these live.

644
00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:06,720
I don't know.

645
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:13,280
Whenever it comes up, we'll see, try to do them on Fridays in the morning European time.

646
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,880
And, uh, you can find a link to the videos there if you want to see the visuals.

647
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:22,400
But, uh, if you don't subscribe to this already in podcast form, you should look up tonsutalk and

648
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,400
subscribe, and we'll see everyone next time.

649
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:25,360
Bye-bye.

650
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:26,240
Bye-bye.