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Well, uh, I, I saw you, uh, giving a talk at like an internal conference, if we, if you will,

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that we had recently. And, and it was, it was great hearing you go over, uh, there, there's a

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phrase that we don't, I, we don't hear much in the technology, uh, the exciting world of technology

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and cloud native, and that is business case. And, uh, I, I thought that, you know, like looking,

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you know, at the, the, the kind of organizations that, uh, that, that you work at. And then I

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talk with all the time. It is, uh, for as thrilling as a technology, as a technology can be,

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oftentimes there's a lot of effort put into just getting it there and, and getting it set up. And

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so, uh, I thought it'd be great to have you on here to talk about that more. And, but before that,

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you want to introduce yourself? Sure. Um, my name is Carrie Schaefer. Um, I am senior directory,

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senior director of technology and, um, partnerships at One Magnify. Uh, that's, I manage basically all

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of our infrastructure teams, including the platform teams for, uh, TAS. Um, One Magnify is a marketing

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company and we, uh, basically provide specialized services to our customers in the area of marketing

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technology and analytics. We're really trying to drive their results and amplify their business,

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you know, their business value of their marketing efforts. And so a lot of the work that we do,

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I find is different than a lot of the other, um, potentially Tanzu customers because they do a

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lot of internal work for themselves. We do a lot of work for our clients and, you know, we only do the

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work that's necessary for ourselves because, you know, we're very client focused. We're, uh, you know,

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looking to make a huge impact for our clients. So, um, business cases are incredibly important to our

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company, um, as, you know, being in the, in the space that we're in.

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Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I like, uh, uh, I like the idea of, of doing the minimal for ourselves.

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That's something I need to consider for my own life. Just, uh, seeing, seeing, I need, uh, I need to do

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the business case on me doing less. Yeah. That would be great. Yeah. You know, I mean,

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I, I know some of the, the, the customers that you have are like pretty, you know, large, big name

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customers that need a, a good scale for the type of marketing that they do. So, you know, it's, it is,

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uh, it's, it's one of those businesses where technology is and software and like cloud stuff

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is obviously necessary, incredibly important. Um, so yeah, so, so let, let's talk about like, uh, like, so,

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so, you know, you get this feeling that you need, uh, like you're saying, you, you write, you run the,

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the, the platform teams where you manage them and you need a new sort of, uh, kind of big platform

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technology. And, uh, like, well, like, where do you start after that? I mean, you have so many

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choices, you've got a bunch of people involved, like what's, what happens before the business case

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where you've selected something and you're kind of justifying doing it and getting budget for it.

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So typically a business need is what drives any big changes we make. I would love to say we get

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things out. So, and there are times where we do POCs with, uh, with software, but when we go to

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actually make a big acquisition of software, there has to be a business case that's driving it. So

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we'll go out and look at all the different, uh, you know, options in the market that could solve that

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problem. And we'll actually do first, we're just doing a fit analysis. So we're looking at the

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problem that we have and then what's the fit, where is it going to run? How much is it going to cost?

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And so you're doing those high level, you know, you're, you're, I would say high to medium level,

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you know, um, uh, investigations into figuring out which product we're actually going to fit

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your, uh, your business case the best. And so we tend to go through that first and we go through all

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the different options and we actually have to write out the reasons why some software fits and some

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software doesn't because we will be asked about that when we actually go to make our final

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justification, because, you know, one of the things we're going to get asked is what else did you look

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at? Did you look at anything else or is this the only thing you're bringing? And so, you know, we like,

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we always try to find our top three and at least look at like three different software options or

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three different, you know, platform options. Um, and then before we go into, you know, the, um,

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the actual, you know, all your ROI documents and looking at, you know, acquisition and, you know,

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going through and looking at the business cases for why you're doing it too, you're also looking at

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the people you have. So it's a completely brand new technology and I have to train the whole staff

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that doesn't align with anything that they already know. So you got to have, you know, so you're

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looking for fit within the organization as well. So if it's a Linux, Linux based program or a Java

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based program, I think, okay, I got people in the house that could quickly learn this. If it's

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something completely new, then, you know, it's, um, it's something that's harder for our teams to

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learn. Like, so for example, you know, Kubernetes, we brought that in and some of that, you know,

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runs in, you know, environments that we already know, but you know, the setting up the environments

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using like, you know, YAML and building out your pipelines and things like that. And it's an all

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new language. We know that that's going to add an extra overhead. So that all goes into the

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consideration. And then once we, we come up with the software that we want, we start working on,

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you know, uh, we start working on the rationalization for that purchase and start deep

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diving into all the business case, uh, components that, you know, are going to be required. Cause

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we, we acquire software at one magnifier. When I, you know, we're pitching that to our upper

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management, there's going to be a lot of questions asked. So you're, you need to have your business

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case solid. And then you've also got to have your financials pretty much bulletproof. Cause you're

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going to get, you're going to have to walk through that with the CEO and the CFO, and they're going

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to be asking a million questions. Yeah. It seems like the, the, the leadership y'all have is pretty

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technical if, if I remember right. Hence, hence the, the, the questions about like fitness and fit and

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things like that. So it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, as you're saying, you have two things you have to put

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off with the, the, the business case. And also like, does it work case? And yeah, I'm, and I'm curious,

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like hearing you go through that, about that, that kind of second group of things, like it's, I feel,

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I feel like it can be difficult to sort of do the case for it works. Right. And like, like it's,

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it's the right fit for what we want. And then especially somehow, somehow I, I was going to say

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measuring, but I'll instead say representing or somehow describing like, well, we don't really

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know how this works. Right. And that's, you know, like we were anticipating it'll be difficult for

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us to figure this out. Cause as you were saying, like, we haven't done this before. Right. And,

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and on and on and on. Right. And so like, I've seen people over the years, like,

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like to put it another way, everyone wants good developer productivity. Right. And, and it's,

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it's kind of, there's not exactly like a, a like number you can put in a spreadsheet. That's like,

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this one is a six, right? Like, like it's, it's, uh, going in, we know that developer productivity is

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a six or whatever, or all of these kinds of other things that are around it. So I'll get around to a

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question eventually, but like, how, how do you, how do you represent the, like, this fits what we need

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and want? Like, how, how do you go over that? So a lot of that comes from looking at like case

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studies or in white papers and like researching all the documentation that, that is actually a big part

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of my job, especially when it comes to acquiring new software or justifying software increases. And,

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uh, and, you know, if we have other similar products that have done similar things, like,

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let's say we have this group of work that now we're trying to modernize, but it needs a specialized

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platform, which, you know, some, you, it would be nice to say all your different software products

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that you're delivering for your customers could fit on one platform, but that's not really true. So

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you're going to have multiple. So when you're looking at that, part of it is you're looking at the enablement

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that, you know, the other similar products that we've developed, like that is a big business case for

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us. You know, I'm going to, that's a better number for me to quote than something I've just read in a

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white paper from a different kind of a company, you know? Right, right. So, so I'm looking for those

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referenceable items and then I have to actually turn that into dollars. Right. So like I was just

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looking at like something for TKG and it said it increases developer productivity by 37%. I got to

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find a weird calculus number and, and one that I can justify and actually back into, well, if it's

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going to increase their productivity by 37%, that means we're going to get 30% more billable work out

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of them. And how many people is it going to actually take those numbers and multiply it out and have,

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you know, it's funny because I do a lot of the coding for the company as well. So I never was a math

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person. I kind of always hated math in school and everything to get out of it, but it's, it's such a

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huge part of my job in a leadership role is, is, is having that math and understanding that financial

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acumen and the business acumen, you got to kind of, you have to actually combine both of those together.

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And I'm actually better oddly, and I don't really like this, but I'm better with the financial acumen

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than I am with the business acumen. I'm more comfortable in that space because math is math

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than it's like very, you know, if you're doing it right, you're only going to get one answer.

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It's not very cool. It's not, it's, it's very opinionated and like, you know,

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Yeah. And, and also like the scenarios you were just describing, there's, um,

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like what, once you've built up kind of, as you were saying, like we have, there's other instances

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where we've put this platform or this technology in place or done this kind of calculation. Like one,

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you kind of build up an experience of, of models you can use, like ways you can think about what's

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happening. And then, and then also like math, it can be nice because like you said, it's just like

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deterministic. It's just like, as long as we agree on, like, we have these five numbers, we put them

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in the formula and there's the answer. Whereas like, you know, business strategy stuff is like, well,

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we'll see what happens. Like, will people like this or not?

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Yeah. And employee satisfaction, like, because that's factor two. So you're looking at two

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different things, right? You're looking at the cost benefit analysis. So like all your ROI,

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um, you're looking at that and that is easier. I think in many cases that like when you're making

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the business justification and I say, okay, you know, developer productivity, less frustration at

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word, what does that equal? And then you basically equal that out to employee happiness. Well, that's a

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sliding scale based on each person. So you gotta, you, you know, you're, you're benchmarking that,

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but you also, it's based on testimonial, which is much more subjective and harder. Like if,

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you know, if you're in, if you're in trying to justify that software and I say, okay, well,

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you know, the developers, like when we did this before for this other product, developers are

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happier, they have less frustration, but then, you know, maybe there's that one person who had like a

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gripe and, you know, you're, well, what about what happened with this and this person? It's like,

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okay, you know, it, it, it's much more subjective than. Yeah. That's the financial side. So,

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you know, really in that case, you have to either say, well, you know, this person was unhappy because

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of these reasons, but then, you know, six of their colleagues were happier because of these other

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reasons. Yeah. You know, you get a six to one. And so in an organization like ours, like we're one of

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the best places to work. And part of that is because we care about our employees and what they

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want. And so it doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to not think about that person who had a bad

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experience in a similar product. We, you know, just because the other six liked it, but, you know,

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it's, it's one of those things where, you know, that could end up being something where we have to

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do a bunch of meetings and go back to the drawing table and figure out how we can make,

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make it so that person isn't unhappy again. Yeah. That's, that's reminding me of a conversation I

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just this morning with my, uh, my daughter, her, uh, her, she bikes to school and her bike chain was

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broken. So I had to take her in this big bucket bike or buck feet, as they say here in the Netherlands.

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And, uh, she, she, every time I have her in there, she reminds me of like the two times that the bike

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fell over and she's very good at telling the stories. And so this morning I, she's, so she's kind of like

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you're one out of six developers. And this morning I was, I was asking her like, well, do you remember

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all the times we didn't fall over, which is like, you know, every day. And of course her answer was no.

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What do you say that humans, and this is, you know, I mean, this goes across the board with a lot of

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things. We are more wired to think about like the, the negative things. And it kind of comes from,

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you know, like when we were cavemen, right? We saw a saber tooth tiger and you either ran or you were

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saber tooth tiger lunch. Well, you either ran or fought, but if you didn't either and you sat there.

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So you have those negative, those negative experiences, they say in our brain, because I've,

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you know, I'm not a psychologist, but I've read a lot of studies. They say that those stick with us

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stronger than a positive memory does. Yeah, for sure. So it's definitely a factor because,

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you know, everybody, everybody who's involved and everybody who's a stakeholder in whatever it is

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that we're, that we're bringing in, they, you know, we are going to consider their opinion.

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And so if it's, if it's not the opinion that you want, you still have to listen to it. You still

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have to accommodate for it. It's a, it's definitely a tricky thing about bringing in new software products

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because they're, you know, you think that you think on the surface that that is a cut and dry,

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like a financial decision, but there's a lot of emotion involved too. People worry about like,

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is it going to, is it going to automate me out of my job? You know, is it going to be something that,

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you know, sends too many alerts and is it configured right? And all of a sudden I have to work extra

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hours, you know, there's all these considerations that are very emotional. And, uh, and so when you're

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talking with, you know, acquisition of software, you do have to be ready to handle, you know, when you're

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building out your cases, you have to be, you know, ready to handle all the personalities and all the

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different personas of your stakeholders. And, and, you know, just be mentally ready because there will

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be people who are going to be unhappy about it.

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So, so to ask, well, what, what sounds like it, what sounds like to, to y'all's daily life there,

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what would be an odd question? Like, let's assume for whatever reason, you know, you're, you, uh,

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you get, you get hired to go work at a new place that, that isn't as great, uh, as, as,

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uh, what magnify is who knows why. Uh, and, um, and they're basically like, they're, they're,

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they're executives are like, we love how stuff was run over there. Can you like, we don't really do

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that here. Can you like set it up here? Right. And, and then, you know, as let's say it's a,

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a gigantic company, right. So as often happens, the, uh, the executives at the top are like,

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this stuff is great. It needs to happen. And then they kind of like, you know, you get in your

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little boat to go to the rest of the bureaucracy and they give you a smiling, you know, push off

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into it. And then you got to go talk with everyone else. And so like, like given, you know, given the

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situation you were saying, like, how would you, again, this will sound weird, but like, how would

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you convince people that like having happy developers is a good idea?

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I, so it's interesting because we're doing a little bit consulting work with, uh, with a

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customer that brought us in on one of their platforms because they're, they're having a

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hard time with adoption. And, uh, so we're kind of living this right now. Um, it, so the first

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thing you really have to do is listen. So you have actively listen, like as humans, especially

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for, you know, for, if, if I worked on this proposal and, or whatever it is and getting this,

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the software implemented, I kind of have already probably coming at it from a naturally defensive,

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like I need to defend my case. Right. Oh yeah.

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Spend your self-interest, which is hard. I mean, I'm telling you, that's probably the hardest

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thing because like, especially with a person like me, like when they say something that,

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you know, doesn't crack with, you know, what I know statistically is like an accurate

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statement. My first instinct is, you know, I want to debate them, but you, you have to actually

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stop first. You listen, you write down all their concerns. You need to be able to speak

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it back to them in a way that they know, at least they're being heard because a lot of,

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for a lot of people that really helps them. Yeah. Then from there you start, you know, you

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don't just like take them down and then wash them under the rug and feel dead. Like, okay,

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well, I pat myself on the back and listen to that person. Uh-huh. It's not a checklist.

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Yeah. So you actually have to go back and start talking to them, having discussions about,

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well, here's what, here's what the, you know, all the documentation said, here's what I would have,

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like, let's say for example, for me, for my prior experience at another company. And you need to

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actually go through and unpack those worries because what they're presenting, you know, the old iceberg

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idea, what they're presenting, what they're showing you as their, um, the tip of the iceberg, what

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they're actually talking to you about. There's a lot of other things that are underneath. So you

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have to go in and it takes time and patience. And, you know, it really is, and it really is important

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for a proper adoption because you want everybody, you're only going to get the results that you're

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preaching you're going to get if people buy in and actually start using software. And so, or, or the

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platform or whatever it is. Right. So you have to like actually start unpacking and working with that

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person and figure out what's under, you know, what's under the surface there and figure out like, how

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are we going to make it? So this person feels comfortable, especially if they're a stakeholder.

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Yeah. Or there are a lot of people who are not necessarily a stakeholder, but they've got the

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stakeholder fear.

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Right. Right. I mean, that's a good point is the, uh, I don't know, the, the kind of, uh, the P I

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always imagine they're the people who are like, uh, sitting in the chairs along the wall of the

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conference room who, who have a, who have a, uh, sometimes even well, frequently even a more powerful,

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like part of the process than the people at the table, because around the edges, they, they're the

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ones who get delegated to work oftentimes. So, so they're the ones who have direct control over like

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what, what the thinking is and how, how it meshes with everything. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it seems like

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also like one of the things I think about and talk about with people a lot is, I mean, you, you,

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you said it exactly is, well, once you get this technology in place, if your developers or your,

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your operations people or whoever, if they don't like it, they're like, not going to do a good job.

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Like they're, they're not going to be, you know, intrinsically motivated to like understand the tool

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and figure out how to use it best. And like, you know, maybe wait five more minutes before they go to

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lunch to, to, to put up with it or whatever. Right. Like, and so it is like, it's really important

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that you get them enthusiastic about it because it's, I think, I think, as you said, well, right,

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like the, the business assumptions you're making about how that tool is going to work and make

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things better, like really rely on the people using it to do a good job. Like you probably don't make a

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business case that starts with assume people are terrible. Yes. No, but it, and I don't know that

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the, that terrible is really the word, but like the people, people have an incredible impact on,

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on the output. Like, so if, if you're going to get your, you know, if you're going to get the usage

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that you want out of a platform or a tool, the people like you were, like we were saying,

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they have to be invested. And so like, one of the things we did was, you know, um, I think back to

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like when we implemented TAS, which is, you know, back then it was PCF. And so we implemented it with

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a smaller team. So we had a smaller team and like some of the ways we got there, there were teams that

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at first were not even interested. They were like, you know, sounds like a bunch of, you know,

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gibberish and it's not going to be exciting. We're not going to get all this. So what we basically did

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was we, you know, we kind of set up this cross-functional team that actually managed the

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platform and it, it included like the development teams, the, the platform teams, you know, like

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cybersecurity. So all these different people from all these different areas were actually like

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coming together and working on it. And one of the psychology things that I did was I

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put that meeting right in the middle of our collaborative collaboration area around like all,

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where all the other developers were, because it was a fun project and we had a good time. And,

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and, and, you know, when we were sitting there and the developers were talking about the great

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things that had happened and their successes, you know, other people were hearing it. And so once

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they started hearing about like, you know, person A is doing this very cool thing and they had this

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great result and oh my gosh, they love it. And they're having so much fun. The other teams are

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start to like, you know, even, even I, you know, you have some people are technology curmudgeon.

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They, you know, they know what they know and that's what they know and that's what they want to know.

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And that's how they've been doing it for years. And, you know, they can't imagine it being better,

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but even those people, when they start hearing about cool things, other people are doing,

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it, you kind of stoke up this natural jealousy.

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Yeah.

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Like, why do they get to do that? And I can't. And I'm like, you care.

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Just go in the, join the, join the, join the fun, right? Join the team. And so it was almost like,

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it was odd because we started with a very small, like POC kind of team.

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Yeah.

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Like within like a month and a half or so they had, you know, it had swept across the organization

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and the other teams that couldn't use it because of technical reasons were getting very frustrated

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too. Like, I want to go do that cool stuff, but like my app is architected in such a way. It's not

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like in this case cloud native. And so it was interesting. And, you know, people, people came

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and got on the bandwagon. We didn't have to actually force anybody. And that's your best

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case scenario, which is not always going to be the reality of potentially what happens.

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Yeah. You want, uh, you want pull for your, your, your, uh, your platform instead of push,

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right?

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Yes, exactly.

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That's a, that's a clever technique to like, uh, do your initial stuff and ongoing,

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like in the middle of a space, like where, where there's, there's so to speak, high foot

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traffic.

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Yeah.

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And what do you do? Like, uh, you know, what do you do ongoing? Like I see a lot of people

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having conference, like internal conferences and things like that, but how do you, how do

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you like drive awareness and interest in adoption? Like, I don't know, over the next 12 months

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or whatever, like once, once you've set things up.

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I, I, it, now it is absolutely very different in the past. You know, we, we had those weekly

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sessions where you could come in and we would help you. If you had a problem, you could,

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you'd have somebody, you could, you know, there's always somebody you could put in a ticket and

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talk to, um, and we'll help you with your problem. But, you know, those were like open,

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basically like open office hours and they were several times a week. I think we were doing

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them three times a week. And so, you know, there are times when it's hard for certain key members,

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because they want to figure things out on their own. And sometimes they're a little intimidated to go

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ask for help. But there's often office hours there, open office hours where they can come and they feel

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like they'll get an answer and somebody is going to work with them. And, you know, there's no fear

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of like ridicule or fear of like failure, you know, you know, in that kind of scenario for a person,

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people will actually come and continue to have those types of conversations and feel comfortable.

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And especially once, you know, they've, they've done it once or twice, right. The first time is

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probably a little scarier, but you know, the second, third time it's, you know, they realized like,

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this person's here to help me and, you know, and, and help work through this. And so when you,

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when you have new, you know, new people who are adopting technology, probably feel a little bit

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behind the others, or even like people are working on the technology and you want to keep that cadence

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and, and happiness going, having that kind of interpersonal relationships and in conversations

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is, is very important in the technique. You know, since we did a lot of that pre COVID,

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so we did it in person. And so post COVID, we've tended to do the same type of meetings,

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um, and the same type of office hours. And it does help because people will come to those and they,

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you know, they might say, okay, well, you know, you know, when you first get there, I, you know,

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whatever, I don't, I don't have any topics for today, but then like when you're sitting there

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and you're kind of bantering and all of a sudden it's like, well, I have been working on this thing

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and you know, what do you think of this? And so you, you still can get, you can still get a lot

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of that type of interactions. The thing that you, you're definitely going to miss is, it is the

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actual like excitement you can build by just having people overhear things, but still rumors go through

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this company pretty quick. So if they're over, if developer A is on that platform team and they're

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having a great time and they're having a good experience, they're, they're talking to the other

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people in the organization and it's still going to spread. It's, it's, it won't be as quick though.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's, that's a topic I'm, I'm always interested in is I was thinking of this a few weeks ago that,

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uh, essentially if you're introducing, uh, like, like a platform for developers to use and a new

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way of working, all, all this stuff that pretty early on, you need to establish like a word of mouth

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campaign for, for marketing, right? Like, I mean, you have to do marketing and taking consideration,

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all the marketing stuff, uh, kind of implied internally. Right. And, and like, uh, it's,

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it's both intimidating and also comforting because like, I don't know, in it marketing, isn't like a core

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strength or a core strength in the sense of something anyone cares to do. Right. Like it's not, it's not

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something that you do. However, also like marketing is pretty well understood. Like there's, you're not

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like reinventing things. Like, it's just like, there might be a lot of possible ways to do marketing,

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but all of them are, uh, pretty easy, like, like, and proven out. So like, do you, do you sort of like,

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what's the, what's the word? Like consciously or strategically, like, are you kind of on the

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lookout for like, ah, this, these three people, if we could just go get them to talk to those people,

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that would be great. Like, are you trying to like set the board up that way so that people talk with

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each other? Yes. So, so we, I do it two different ways. So we just, you know, we're right now rolling

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out another platform. And, uh, the first thing I did was I actually had, uh, we do these events.

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So thankfully I kind of have an advantage because I am on the team that runs the IT events for the

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company. Um, and so, uh, so the first thing I did was said, okay, I'm going to do like a one-on-one.

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I'm going to answer all your questions. I'm going to show you how to do it. I'm going to show you

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how to register for it. And let's just do a quick half an hour meeting and get people like

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understanding what it is, how to use it, how to navigate and all that. And so we had a meeting on

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it and that was pretty successful, but then, you know, you get 60, 60 people. We probably have what,

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like 150, 175 developers that will magnify. You still don't have everybody. And so like, after that,

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you strategically have to start talking to people like, have you told your team about, you know,

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this, you, you, you do, you kind of have to touch point with them and say, you know, you know,

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you did, you did so great here. You know, it'd be, it'd be great if you shared that with the rest of

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your team so they could have the same experience. And not everybody thinks to do that. There's a lot

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of people, you know, it's funny because like, um, there's a lot of different personalities in IT.

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And I think there's, you know, the stereotypical one we all think about, which is not necessarily an

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extrovert, but you do have some good extroverts and they'll go in and have that discussion

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pretty easily. So, and then you have other people, I'm sorry, at least here actually fertilized in my

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yard. That's fine. It has to grow. Yeah. Especially in Michigan. Okay. So, so yeah. And then,

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and then once they think about that, they go, okay, you know, some people aren't going to do it,

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right? Some people are introverts to the point where they're, where they're not going to do it.

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So maybe you have to reach out. You have to kind of know, know people and their personalities. It's

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harder in big organizations. You know, when I joined one magnify, we were a very small company,

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probably about 50 people. And now we're like over 650 people. So it's not as easy because,

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you know, it's hard to know everybody in a company size, especially when you get up into these huge

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companies. But if you can do that organically through the people, you know, and maybe get that

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spreading, then you, you know, that's the best way to do it because I, you know, even myself,

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I don't have the time to go talk to all those developers one-on-one.

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Yeah. Yeah. It's, it seems like, well, I think it is, it doesn't seem like it is the case of someone

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like yourself and then other people who are trying to introduce like, you know, the, the platform out

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there that they need to have, I don't know, you know, enjoy socializing with people and, and enjoy,

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or I guess you don't have to enjoy it. You need the ability to do it and to do it,

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which it sure is nice to enjoy things you have to do.

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It is true.

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But, but it is like a, a major component that, you know, I, I talk with a lot of like

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infrastructure teams who have, for example, like built out their Kubernetes clusters and their

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infrastructure. And they, they're always, they'll either explicitly say it, or you can kind of tell

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they're always a little bit like confused or upset that it doesn't get used more.

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Right. And, and oftentimes what's missing is what you were just going over is like, well,

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you got to go out and like tell people about it, not only tell them about it, but when there's

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success, like get them to help you like market it and go, you know, like it's a, it's a very,

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like you have to put a lot of effort, especially initially into just getting people interested in

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using it and using it and then spreading the word for you.

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Yeah. Yeah. That, that is a huge thing. And, uh, I know, like I was talking earlier about this

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consulting engagement we're doing. Um, that's kind of the problem that they had, you know,

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it was built specifically for one thing and, you know, their, their developers don't really know

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about it. And it, you know, it, and so in some cases in a lot of big organizations, what you see is

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they'll start building another platform that's similar. Like they'll ask for another platform,

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maybe they'll, or their business case. And it'll be very similar in like all of a sudden as an

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organization, you're paying for two different platforms that are specifically providing the

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same services because your development teams aren't talking. Um, and so, you know, getting,

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getting that word of mouth out and, and really talking to people and making sure that everybody's

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aware of it. So, you know, it isn't, it is incredibly important. And so whatever that,

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you know, there's two different ways, there's that high level communication, like at our company,

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we have, you know, company communications or like town halls, you know, and sometimes,

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you know, you walk somebody through like newest platform we were launching. I just did a,

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you know, some information on it in the town hall. That's a good way to make everybody kind

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aware of it, but you also have to understand those, um, informal business, uh, you know,

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practices and informal business. Like, I guess I would say leaders for each of the groups and you

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can actually, you know, and so it may not be like going for me, you know, I could go to my peer who

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manages all development, but I don't really know that he's going to have time to go down or talk to

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all those developers, but if I know who are his informal leads, his formal and informal leads

368
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,040
underneath of that, and even in some cases, the people who have the great personality, like I can

369
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:40,480
tell you, I know who in the organization has a great personality who I can say, take this message

370
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,080
out and they're going to go talk to 30 people because they like talking to 30 people.

371
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:53,440
So understand those avenues, um, you're going to get a better adoption than just relying on,

372
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,480
you know, the information going out in company emails or the information being done in a town

373
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:05,360
hall. It seems like that, that raises awareness and it'll work a little, but that the informal

374
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,200
communications that, you know, in internally within the teams, especially if you have a team member who

375
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:16,620
can say, I did this and it was really cool and here's why, and they're willing to go talk to people

376
00:34:16,620 --> 00:34:23,760
about that, you know, that, that is actually probably going to be your best, your best chance

377
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,840
of bringing new users to that platform.

378
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:33,800
Yeah. And, and, and you, you also like, like you mentioned something that, uh, in there a little

379
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,400
while back that made me think of like one way of expressing the business case of happiness,

380
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:44,860
like, which is, you know, if they're not happy, they're going to make their own thing or, or,

381
00:34:44,860 --> 00:34:49,280
you know, we're going to have more than one or, you know, depending on the size of the organization,

382
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,080
we're going to have more than two or three, like we're going to have too many, uh, ways of people

383
00:34:54,080 --> 00:35:01,540
solving this problem. And that is a lot more, a lot more quantifiable as far as like, and now we're

384
00:35:01,540 --> 00:35:05,640
paying for all of this stuff. Right. And then, you know, and, and then just to pick one thing,

385
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,560
I mean, you have, you have, uh, a security background and then, so that also means that

386
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:15,400
like, and now we have to pay for another like set of security, like controls and audits and stuff,

387
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,360
like for all these additional things. So if we can reduce down and then there's all the other things,

388
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:26,520
right? Like if we can, if our, if our theory, which as you're saying has been proven out several

389
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:33,640
times is that, that the, the more we socialize or make happy, make happy, have, have happy developers,

390
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:40,600
then we actually can have a really direct, like, you know, spreadsheetable number here that over,

391
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,400
over the long-term we have just one place that things are done. And, and I would imagine often,

392
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,920
I mean, many of the organizations I talk with that's, they're starting with too many platforms.

393
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,480
Right. So, so you almost don't have to convince them of that being the case. They're like, yes,

394
00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:02,360
that's, that's our problem is like people went off and did all their own stuff. So now they will

395
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:07,800
understand a lot more that like, you need to do all of this marketing and, and socializing of it and

396
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:14,120
just target happiness. Otherwise, whatever business case and ROI you had is not going to work out very

397
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:19,880
well. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it sounds very cliche and people have been saying it for years, but,

398
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:27,640
but productivity, giving developers, giving them the ability to be easily productive with less

399
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:34,520
frustrations, you get more work put through because like, I can tell you before PCF, like we had some

400
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:40,600
automation in place, but it wasn't, it wasn't what we have now. And the developers used to have to put

401
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:45,240
in a series of tickets and that always led to frustration because, you know, then you had all

402
00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:49,080
these different people working on it. Like you had a ticket for the DBA team and you had a ticket for

403
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:54,600
the system administration team and you sent you tickets for the security team and then the network

404
00:36:54,600 --> 00:37:00,920
team. And you like, all those things have to happen in concert. And if one of those things gets messed

405
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,880
up, like, let's say you have 10 tickets to launch a project. If one of those things gets messed up,

406
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:11,560
then, you know, all of a sudden it's all brand new. So you're pointing fingers, you're trying

407
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,280
to figure out which part isn't right. And you're, you know, there's a lot of frustration to it. And

408
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:21,400
and we found that that ain't a lot of developers time. And then it also made them very unhappy,

409
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,760
which, you know, we all hear about these things, but really we've seen the benefits. Like there's no

410
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:34,440
way there's been programs that we've launched, you know, that, you know, in 2020, we won the CIO 100

411
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:39,080
award because of work that we, that we did for our customers that was incredibly impactful. But the

412
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,960
truth is we had such a tight timeline that on that project, that the developers weren't fully enabled.

413
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,120
That would have been a whole different story. I mean, it would have, we probably still would have

414
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,360
gotten it done because that's how we are. It will magnify. But, you know, instead of everybody

415
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:58,040
celebrating that as a success and it being like a happy story and like really like a success story,

416
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:03,400
that would have been a success story for the customer. But internally, there's a lot of hard

417
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:09,000
feelings now, you know? Right, right. It would have been the thing where everyone needs like a,

418
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:16,360
some bonus vacation to recuperate and get their mindset. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know,

419
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,440
you, you, uh, you mentioned this a little earlier, earlier, but like how, uh, I mean,

420
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,520
it's related, but somewhat of a new topic. Like, I don't know, what, what, what do you think about

421
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,320
Kubernetes? How is that fitting into everything? Like, where, where do you see since, since you're,

422
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:36,600
you know, have used PCF and TAS for a while and other things like, how is that fitting into the

423
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,120
portfolio that you have? What's, what's it doing for you? What's the, the need?

424
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:49,720
So Kubernetes, so Kubernetes is a more flexible platform. You can put things on it, like apps on

425
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:55,640
it that you can't put into a very opinionated platform like TAS, like, uh, the Tanzu application

426
00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:01,800
service. And, and so, but what we found is that it's not as easy for developers. Like our developers,

427
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:08,760
they push their code and to get, and then there's a series of checks that it goes through and then an

428
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:14,680
approval sign off. And then it goes to production. Right. And like, they have to write these, you

429
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,680
know, actually they don't even have to really write the YAML file. So we're trying to build that same

430
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:23,640
thing for Kubernetes, but it's not as opinionated. There's more things that the developers could do

431
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:30,280
with it. And, but at the same time, it's harder for them. It's, it adds an extra layer of complexity

432
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:35,480
to them. And our developers, I don't want to say spoiled because, you know, there's a good reason

433
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,680
for them being spoiled. We spoiled them to like, you know, make them super happy and makes them super

434
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:47,240
productive. But Kubernetes, you know, is going to have certain business cases. It, you know, that's,

435
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:50,920
that's what I'm seeing with it so far, because it's not as easy. And if the developers can,

436
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,560
in our case, the developers can take the easiest, more, most effective path, you know, they're delivering

437
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,880
value to the customer and they're going to do that. You know, the faster that they can do that,

438
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,240
the more value that they can deliver. So it's not something they're doing selfishly,

439
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:09,080
but you know, if they're getting to get the same value from using another platform that's faster,

440
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:15,080
they're going to do that. And that's, you know, it's a benefit to the customer as well. So,

441
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:23,320
but Kubernetes is definitely, I mean, we've been working with it and we implemented like, so one of the

442
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:29,080
things is, you know, we've implemented a couple different levers of it, but most recently we've

443
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:35,480
been implementing TKG and we struggled with it at first. Like we, you know, we didn't fully implement

444
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:43,080
it because, you know, before TAP came out because I knew my use cases on that were limited and people

445
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,720
were going to be unhappy with it, but we had started rolling it out and then TAP came out and we quickly

446
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:56,200
adopted that. And that solved a lot of, it solved a good portion of that, you know, the same issues,

447
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:03,160
right? The same worries about, you know, not having to, you know, have everything automated or having

448
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,880
these check plate check marks. So we built the whole supply chain there and did it with the development

449
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:14,680
teams. And so we made it an easier to use version of Kubernetes. And so we're trying to get that same

450
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:22,200
level of automation out of Kubernetes that you do in TAS. But I think part of the, part of why TAS is so

451
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:27,400
easy for developers is it's very opinionated. You can't break, you can't break the whole platform.

452
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:33,720
Developer, you know, it's just like, it won't let them do that. In Kubernetes, we've had apps deployed

453
00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:42,040
that have broken a cluster. And so it puts more onus back on the developers. And, you know, it, I think

454
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,600
it's incredibly important. I think it's the way of the future, but I think the abstraction, I think

455
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:51,720
companies need to keep working on the abstraction layer so that it's a better developer experience

456
00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:58,520
than it currently is. And TAP was a huge step forward, but really, you know, across the board,

457
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:03,880
it's still not as easy as, you know, um, whether you think about TAS or whether you think about, um,

458
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:14,760
cloud run and like GCP, like all those types of services, they're easier to use than Kubernetes.

459
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:20,680
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think it's only, I mean, as I'm sure you've, you've witnessed

460
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:26,280
firsthand, right. It's only in the last, I don't know, let's, let's say two years or so. What,

461
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,920
I got to check you what year it is. I'm always forgetting, but like, like, like two years or so

462
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:37,640
that there really is like, uh, uh, a lot more attention to that developer layer in, in the

463
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:43,880
Kubernetes world. Right. Like there was just, just getting the, the orchestrator, the, the,

464
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:51,480
the container as a service layer all set up was many years of work. And, and now, now it's great.

465
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:56,440
There is more attention to, uh, to that layer and hopefully they'll, uh, they'll, they'll be a lot

466
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,840
more, but yeah, it's, you know, there's, there's the idea that floats around every now and then

467
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:06,280
that like Kubernetes is, is, you know, meant for building platforms, not an end platform on its own,

468
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:11,080
which I think is, uh, what, what you see a lot of nowadays, but, and then also like, I think,

469
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,480
you know, you know, I, I'm always interested in, in, in what people say in response to that question,

470
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,720
because there's, there's a weird moment in, in that technology of, as you were just saying,

471
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:28,040
like, there's, there's agreement that it's the way of the future. Right. And then, and then,

472
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:33,240
and then people say, but it's also very difficult to use and we're not like using it for everything

473
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:40,840
yet. And so like, it is, it's, it's an interesting study, speaking of marketing of how this, how,

474
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:46,520
how a technology gets kind of over, as we used to say, the chasm, or it gets to that inevitability

475
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:53,400
that everyone's interested in it. And they like, are willing to basically code develop with the,

476
00:43:53,400 --> 00:44:00,440
the, here, the Kubernetes ecosystem, like finishing it out, which is like, it's, it's almost impossible

477
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:08,120
to track down, but, but it's, it's probably, I don't think it's the only way that like a, a technology

478
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:14,440
sort of wins, but it's one of the major ways that it happens, that there's just this inexplainable,

479
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:20,120
like everyone agrees, this is the one, even, even though we're not all using it, like to maximum

480
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:25,800
effect, uh, at the moment. Yeah. It was interesting because we definitely had some people in the

481
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:30,360
organization when we first were implementing TKG. You know, you have people who love like our,

482
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:35,000
I always think of our solution architects that will make, they love playing and tinkering and like

483
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:40,680
learning new things makes them very happy to have it and play with it. But like, it's not a

484
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:45,320
successful platform unless you actually get, get it out to the masses and people are deploying to it.

485
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,840
You're not going to make your money back. You're going to, you're going to miss your ROI factors.

486
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:59,560
Right. Yeah. You're going to need a lot of, uh, yeah. My, my dog gets very excited as well. There's

487
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:07,320
no fertilizer or trains, uh, but I've got this dog. Thankfully, mine are, mine are upstairs,

488
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:13,160
otherwise they'd be barking their heads off too. Yeah, exactly. Uh, yeah. So, so the last thing I was

489
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,240
going to ask you about now, uh, you know, we mentioned you, you have a background in security

490
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:21,240
and, uh, you know, when I, when I've, when I have watched you talk a few times, you're very, uh,

491
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,680
uh, very interested in getting more, more women involved in technology. Cause I, I remember one,

492
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:31,640
one story you told is that, uh, was it, was it a security conference that you went to or like,

493
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:37,800
like a meeting and you were like, you were like the only woman there. And, and, and, you know,

494
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:43,880
I mean, there's, there's what, what, what I liked about the way you, you talked about doing, you

495
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:48,520
know, how, how you go about this is, is like, it's almost like, I don't understand why more

496
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:55,000
like everyone and more women should want to be in tech. It's great. Right. Like, so, so you're,

497
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,560
you're, you know, you spend a fair amount of time, uh, evangelizing for it. So like, what,

498
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:05,720
I mean, like what advice do you give other people who are, who also would want to go kind of

499
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:09,480
evangelize to bring more women in? Like, what are the techniques you use? Like what you're looking

500
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:15,640
out for? Like what's the toolkit, uh, that, that you can give out? So I don't want to stereotype

501
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,680
all women because I'm super nerdy and the nerdy stuff gets me super excited. But I think for us to

502
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:27,080
be very successful and bringing more women in it, I think we need to, to openly acknowledge there's

503
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:32,680
all these different roles in it because when I've met so many women, including my own niece, um,

504
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:37,320
um, which I've told the story over and over again about how, you know, she lived with me and she

505
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:42,440
was interning at one magnify. And when I would say to her, you know, when she was in college,

506
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:47,320
going to it, she would act like, you know, I was trying to make her miserable and run her life.

507
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:56,200
Uh, so long story short, eventually she came into it and she is now a desktop administrator.

508
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,800
She's gone through a couple different administration bases, but she really loves the desktop

509
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:04,440
administration. Like, um, and I said to her one day, I said, what are you loving about your job?

510
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,680
And she said, I help people all day, every day. And so there's these, all these different stories

511
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:15,800
of different types of jobs that women could, you know, potentially gravitate towards, um,

512
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,680
in different personality types. But I think, I think when we talk about it, we only talk about the tech.

513
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:29,160
And so in some cases we're actually missing a lot of, you know, a pretty good demographic because,

514
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,800
you know, um, there's a lot of women have brought into IT that don't, they don't want to be an

515
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,880
developer. They don't want to be a system admin. They don't want to play with the newest, coolest tech.

516
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,760
They want to be able to help people. They want to be able to work in a job where they feel like they

517
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:48,440
can have, you know, they can have an impact, you know, from like all these different aspects,

518
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:53,000
right. From a cultural aspect, from the marketing aspect, from, you know, social aspect. And so

519
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:58,760
there's all these different jobs in IT. And I think we really only talk about two types of jobs when

520
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:03,160
we're really out trying to promote it to people, kind of development and infrastructure jobs.

521
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:10,120
And we know that there's project managers, there's product owners, there's agile managers, there's

522
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:17,000
QA people, quality assurance people that are needed. There's, you know, there's help desk people.

523
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:24,040
There's such a big, big, expansive, um, you know, amount of jobs that are available on IT. And I think

524
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,520
that's the thing that we're missing. And then the other thing I think that women don't understand

525
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:36,120
about, um, IT jobs is, you know, for women and for anybody, actually anybody. And I, you know,

526
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:41,880
as much as I advocate specifically for women because of my own experience, um, I actually say the same

527
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:47,560
thing for other underrepresented groups as well, is that it's, it is a field that's growing. You know,

528
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,200
we're not losing people in the field where we're growing with the need of for IT people and even

529
00:48:52,200 --> 00:49:00,680
especially cyber security are growing at like a good rate. It's a good pay field, right? So we,

530
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:05,640
there's good salaries. It's, you know, you're able to live very comfortably if you're working in an IT

531
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:11,880
field in most cases. And then, you know, there's a lot of flexibility. So for, for women, that's,

532
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,600
that's a key thing because a lot of them, you know, tend to be primary caregivers, um, in,

533
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:21,000
in a lot of cases still with statistic hasn't, you know, I know it's gotten better, but that's still

534
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:26,440
a pretty heavy statistic. And so being able to have that flexibility means like, maybe you can work

535
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,880
from home, maybe you could drive your kids to school, maybe you can go pick them up, you know,

536
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:35,320
and you can, you can manage your schedule to make your life easier for yourself. And so I, I think

537
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:42,360
we're not really out promoting all of that when we're talking to women. Um, and then, you know,

538
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:47,640
I just was reading on CNN like a few weeks ago and they said the number of women in IT leadership,

539
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,400
like CIO positions has dropped during the pandemic.

540
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:57,480
Really went from like 2% to 1%. So those sell like a big drop, but like, that's like,

541
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:03,640
right, right, right. That's one of the, yeah, yeah. I, it's, it, I like those figures that are

542
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:10,440
like, it's, it's been cut in half, but it is. And then to your point, it was already tiny. So it's

543
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,600
even worse. Like, yeah. Yeah.

544
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:20,120
It's important for women to be able to see themselves in those career paths as well. Because,

545
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,960
you know, if you come in, like our company is great about hiring women. And I, I don't,

546
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,440
I can't actually say we did a concerted effort on it. I think it was more organic. We're a great

547
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,920
place to work. We're a great place to work for women. Women told other women. So like we have 40%

548
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:40,840
of our, over 40% of our IT department is women. And so, you know, people are like, how did that happen?

549
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,360
And I'm like, cause you know, it's a great place to work for a woman. And so women would tell each

550
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:49,880
other and, you know, it wasn't like we went out and did this specific marketing campaign for it. But

551
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:55,240
I think companies do need to start making specific marketing campaigns. And like the college programs

552
00:50:55,240 --> 00:51:00,920
need to, you know, when, when, when I was in high school, which I know is a million years ago,

553
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:05,240
we all had that thing where we did the compatibility test and get told me like I should be.

554
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:12,280
It was something that I, I don't think I could ever see myself, like maybe like a nurse or

555
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,520
something. Cause I know there was blood involved, whatever it was or blood involved. And I like,

556
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:22,120
can't pull you the blood. That's a good filter for a future jobs. Like, no, not interested in blood.

557
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:29,160
Exactly. So, but the, you know, and then the next thing they said was psychology degree and then like

558
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:35,080
all these, you know, things. And it's funny because, you know, I, I love, I love working in IT.

559
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:41,240
I can't imagine being happier. And so even those types of programs and situations, we really do have

560
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:48,600
to push bringing women in IT. And then in IT, you know, I, I got involved with, after I left

561
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:54,200
cybersecurity, I still, I still like that career field. And I probably would have stayed in it,

562
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:59,480
except for that experience that, you know, going to a conference and being the only woman in a room

563
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:04,840
of about a hundred people was a little, very intimidating though. I can't say that was the

564
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:11,000
only factor, but I switched, I switched my focus, but the number of women in cybersecurity is super

565
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:15,800
low too. So how I worked with the women's security alliance, trying to bring more women into cybersecurity.

566
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:21,960
Cause you know, they say that the numbers are like 25%, but those numbers are skewed by big companies

567
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:26,520
from everything we've found. And I bet you the numbers are really closer to about, you know,

568
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:31,560
10, 15% of the women in cybersecurity. Employees in cybersecurity are women.

569
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:37,720
Yeah. Yeah. I, I like, I like, you know, the, the approach you're going over, which is,

570
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,600
uh, it's not, it's not demystifying, but it's just like,

571
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:49,720
and not redefining, but like just going over that the, the jobs are normal.

572
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,840
Like it's, it's not some weird, like, like, uh, you know,

573
00:52:55,640 --> 00:53:03,240
strange expertise, like weirdos over there with, with, with a, with a strange lifestyle and like,

574
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:10,120
you know, whatever it's not super, I guess, as you, as you said, it's not that it's super nerdy stuff,

575
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:15,640
right. Which, which is, you know, it's, it's, it's similar to, uh, and then there's also just the

576
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:21,640
aspect of like doing more marketing, like with the platform stuff we were talking about, right.

577
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:26,440
Just kind of walking people through like, Hey, this is pretty good. Right. Like here,

578
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:31,480
you know, like it, it makes your, uh, your day, the, the platform here makes your day-to-day life

579
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:36,040
work out better. And similarly, like, I don't know, a job in it, like you were saying,

580
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,640
it's satisfying, right. Like whether you're doing desktop administration or programming or whatever,

581
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:47,000
like it's a, it's a good job, which, yeah, I think it is hard to like,

582
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:57,240
imagine that like you could, one can be qualified to do an IT job. We spent so many like decades

583
00:53:57,240 --> 00:54:05,560
making it seem like it's really difficult. Yeah. Which, which is great for salary negotiations,

584
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:11,720
but like it becomes very limiting when, uh, when, when you need to, uh, get more and more people

585
00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:16,920
involved in it. So that's, that's nice to kind of redefine that. Yeah. The other, the other thing I

586
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:21,000
always stress is, you know, if you're building products, right. So like we're building marketing

587
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:27,400
products for our customers. And if you have all men like it, if you have all men developing those

588
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:33,800
products, in some cases, you're not considering like how different personalities think, right.

589
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:39,560
There's right. And so I always use this example of this box that, that we got, we went and we got

590
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:43,720
these earbuds and they were like super cool. And I was super excited to see them. I don't know why

591
00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:49,080
they were earbuds, you know, but so you get something new, you want to see it. And so driving back and,

592
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:54,520
you know, my husband's an engineer at a box engineer, but he's an engineer, but, and so,

593
00:54:54,520 --> 00:55:01,080
and I work at it. So we're both kind of really analytical people. And so this box, you know,

594
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:05,720
it looks like on the ends that you open up the end of a box, right. You get a box, you open up one end,

595
00:55:05,720 --> 00:55:11,560
and then you go, this thing, I was trying to figure that out, but it was like the funneling me. And

596
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:16,680
then my husband grabbed it and he stuck his finger and it basically was a box that like had a little box.

597
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:18,440
Oh yeah. Yeah.

598
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:25,080
And I was like, who'd sign this? Like, you know, this didn't even like cross my mind is that's the way

599
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,800
that that would work. And so when you're building products, if you're missing key segments of the

600
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:35,560
demographic, like women or like other underrepresented minorities, you're not building your best product.

601
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:42,920
And, and, and, and, you know, and so companies should have, you know, that alone is a very strong

602
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:48,600
reason that companies and universities and, you know, even high school should get involved and say,

603
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:53,880
okay, you know, we're going to make this world a better place and more easy for everybody, but more

604
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:59,000
on the top at the corporate level. If you don't have people representing all your potential customers

605
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:05,160
involved, you're, you, you potentially are losing some of those customers because you know, I had a bad

606
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,880
experience with that box. I still love those headphones, but you know, people, if they're,

607
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:13,640
if it's an app and they have a bad experience with it because they can't navigate, they're going to go

608
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:20,760
find something else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, most, most businesses want to work with as

609
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:27,240
many people as possible and have, have as wide an appeal. So it's, it's, uh, it's good to have as

610
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:33,800
many different people as possible in your organization to reflect that. And I think I, I, I know the kind

611
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:39,400
of boxes you're talking about. I think I've been flummoxed by those myself. Like that. Yeah, that is

612
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:44,600
true. Like just don't be clever with boxes. Right. People, people have a lot going on in their life.

613
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:49,960
Yeah. Yeah. They don't, they don't need a puzzle. Yeah. That was kind of like a puzzle for me. Yeah.

614
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:54,280
I said, cause they want to tear it apart, you know, but I'm like, I don't know how to get this box

615
00:56:54,280 --> 00:57:00,920
open without tearing it apart. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Well, great. Well, well, well, thanks for, uh,

616
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:05,720
going all over that, all over that, uh, with me. I think, I'm, I mean, I'm always really interested in,

617
00:57:05,720 --> 00:57:13,720
in, in how, uh, people are getting platform usage and, and getting them in place there. Cause you

618
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:21,080
know, as you're going over, once you get something that is nice, that, that, that is automated enough

619
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:25,880
and like self-service, like all of the great things that you want from a platform, it just lets you get

620
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:31,800
on to the, the actual work, but it can be difficult to justify doing all this new stuff. And then as we've

621
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:38,440
discussed at length, like marketing it, so people know about it and, and get the enthusiasm to not

622
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:44,120
only use it, but like, like learn how to use it and, and go through that time. So, so that was great.

623
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:47,880
Do you have, uh, do you have anything, uh, you want to point people towards if they're interested in

624
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:52,920
more or like, I know you're in the vanguards and you mentioned the, uh, the organization that you work

625
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:58,040
with, but, uh, what, what would you point people towards to, to look at more if they wanted to?

626
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:03,560
Yeah. So, uh, the vanguards is actually, I'm glad you brought that up because that's a great. So if

627
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:08,920
you have any of the Tansy products, having somebody in the vanguards gives you a leg up because you

628
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,160
learn more about the products, you get like some insight into the products before they're released.

629
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:17,800
You sometimes get input into the products before they're released. So that's a great resource for

630
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:23,400
companies that want to build platform automation, especially in the Tansy space. Um, it's also a

631
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:28,120
great, you meet a lot of great people in that. Um, I was just out in North Carolina and so I got to spend

632
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:34,120
some time with the leaders of that, of that group and, uh, they're fantastic people. And I've met

633
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:39,720
really people that are just fantastic and built really good networking relationships with people

634
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:43,880
at other companies that, you know, sometimes they can help you fix problems faster too.

635
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:50,840
And then on the personal side, um, definitely look into the women's security alliance. It's WOMSA.org.

636
00:58:50,840 --> 00:59:00,120
W O M S A.org. Um, it's a great place. Uh, if you have daughters and, you know, and, or, you know,

637
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:06,440
nieces or anybody who is looking for a good career option, you know, there's a ton of jobs available in

638
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:12,600
cybersecurity. We're trying to fill those positions and increase the number of women. Um, yeah, I think that's,

639
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:17,720
otherwise they can find me on LinkedIn. Yeah, well, that's great. Well, uh, I'll put links to all that

640
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:22,440
stuff in the, uh, the show notes we have, which, which you can, you could find it too, if you wanted

641
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:28,280
to, but you, the listener, uh, can just go to, uh, tonsutalk.com and, uh, search for this episode

642
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:33,400
and find it. Well, uh, that, that was great. And, uh, we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye.