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Well, today it's just you and I again, Ben. I think our friend Ed said that he was hurtling through the French countryside on a highway of some sort.

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So I assume that's good news. I don't know, but it sounds like it would be fun.

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Yeah, drive safer, Ed, wherever you are.

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That's right. And so I thought there hasn't been a tremendous amount of the type of news we like to comment on.

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But Ed, aforementioned hurtling through the countryside, he came across two things that that he sent over that I think there's there's some good commentary to be had on that.

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One of them is a report from from GigaOM from, you know, from Justin, who if you if you follow his stuff, he's Justin.

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You know, I don't actually know if it's Warren or Warren. How would you pronounce W-A-R-R-E-N?

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A Warren, I guess.

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Yeah. OK. Yeah. I just like, you know, I'm I'm aware that I'm I'm and I don't mean this to be self-aggrandizing one of those people who.

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Well, this may not be true anymore after all these years of podcasting, but one of these people who more or less reads a lot more than I talk.

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And so like every now and then I'll encounter something and I'm like, I know how I pronounce that in my head, but I don't actually know how it's it's pronounced.

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And you might have encountered these people a lot. Tech people are a lot like that where they.

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Yeah. What's going on with your name? Because you've got the little tick over your E and I don't know what that means.

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Am I supposed to do something with that? It's just it just means instead of saying coat, you say Coté.

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It means that's that's how I was brought up.

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And I'm pretty sure that's another failing of mine, as you know, at some point in learning, I assume other ones do this.

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And I'm pretty sure y'all over there in the UK would do this.

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But when you learn English at some point, they give you this they give you this lesson where you've got all these upside down letters and weird things and diacriticals.

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And they're trying to teach you like how to how to pronounce things and how to describe them.

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And I think I just must have been hit in the head at the end of that because I don't remember any of it.

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Like, I think I was too busy chewing the crayons, to be honest, to.

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Yeah, that's that's probably what was happening with me as well.

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Anyways.

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But there's a restaurant near Old Street.

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Yes.

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The Old Street office is called Coté.

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Exactly.

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And it might have the same thing.

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I don't remember.

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It does.

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But it has a little hat on the O, which, again, I don't know what that is or what that implies about what you're supposed to say.

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But funny you should mention that I was in a bunch of meetings earlier this week and there was someone who she said her maiden name was Coté.

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And so when she saw my name there, she was kind of shocked.

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Also, she was in Austin, which is of all things, you know, where I'm from.

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The Austin Coté's.

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Yeah.

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And she told me she, you know, so we were talking about it.

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And I said, yeah, there's also a there's also like a chain over in the UK that's called Coté something.

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And like what I've learned over the years in Twitter is that people love going there for brunch.

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Like, you know, usually sometimes on the weekend, I'll get I'll get like a I'll get a tweet because they'll say at Coté and it'll be like, oh, lovely meal, you know, with with Josie.

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And the fellows delicious mimosas or something like that.

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And I usually write back and I'm like, oh, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

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And, you know, please come again.

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I think I think I think one time someone was complaining and I was like, oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

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But it's not me.

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Anyways, it's just opposite the the British Library.

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And yeah, there's there's no not British Library.

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Name escapes me now, but there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a Banksy like literally away from that place.

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Yeah.

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Well, it's definitely Barbican, Barbican Theatre and Barbican Library.

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Oh, yeah.

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Well, there's definitely a lot of them.

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I see them very frequently when I when I'm over there.

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Anyways, now that I've made a big to do about it.

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Justin Warren.

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He's got a delightful you know, you would like his he's got a consultancy.

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You should go check it out.

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Pivot nine.

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And if you sign up for his newsletter.

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So not only does he apparently write up analysis is analyses of reports on the Kubernetes landscape.

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He also has like kind of a consultancy helping people with their their tech marketing.

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So you can go and read his it's a it's a very common thing with boutique analyst firms or whatever boutique is always such a funny word, right?

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Like it just means small, but he has a lot to say about how one would do tech marketing in his newsletter, which which is fun.

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Anyhow, I'm signing up as we speak.

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There we go.

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Look out.

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There's a record.

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I expect him to recommend my newsletter now, which is available at newsletter.cote.io.

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I've got to drive some more subs, right?

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Subs.

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Yep.

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Click click and subscribe like.

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Anyways.

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So so he put out a Kubernetes report and now, you know, there's actually like he's got a very lengthy ranking of all of the the vendors, as I would say.

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And the word choice there is the point that I wanted to bring up.

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And also, I guess I guess the the giga ohm, they don't have a magic quadrant nor a wave, but they have a radar report, which is a little bit like the I don't know it that well.

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I must admit it's a little bit like the ThoughtWorks radar, which means it's circular.

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And it kind of it has, let's see, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13 different.

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And again, I'll get to the word Kubernetes vendors you can choose from.

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But I think I think what's what's you can go read it.

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You can find it.

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I think I think one of the vendors has licensed it.

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You can check it out.

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And it has a good summary of each of them.

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But the thing I wanted to bring up is that he called this it's it's the radar for managed Kubernetes.

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Right.

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And so I'm not going to be Socrates here and ask you questions.

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I'll just what's the opposite of Socrates, like just a lecture and football tease.

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I don't know.

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Hey, wow.

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That's you're not going to you're not going to come across that kind of wit in the Agora.

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They would they would run you out and throw empty olive oil bottles at you.

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Come on.

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That was very Ted Lasso.

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I'm on I'm on trend.

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All right.

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Oh, no, no.

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I just meant that those Agora acts, they I don't think they were into to to clever puns

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and rhetoricians.

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They were very against rhetoric and wordplay.

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They in fact, wasn't it wasn't it Socrates who was like, we need to kill all the poets.

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He was very anti poet, if I remember.

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And then I think I think Plato Plato later came in and is like, let's let's kind of chill

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it with being against the poets.

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Anyway, there's your there's your Coté's philosophy corner for this episode.

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I love Plato almost as much as crayons.

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There you go again.

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What a roll.

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So I when I see the word managed, I think that that must mean like public cloud, right?

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Like a managed service, which, you know, someone else running it.

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But because he includes, you know, OpenShift and Platform9 and our very own VMware Tanzu and talks

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about hybrid and multi cloud stuff.

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It was making me, you know, and I'm pretty sure he means like whether you run it on your

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own or not.

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And I think I tried to go back and reread this.

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And the point I'm trying to make here will be moot if I'm wrong, which is the best kind

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of point to try to make.

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It won't really matter if I'm wrong.

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But like, I think what he's saying is just like, you know, not building your own Kubernetes,

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just like if you were to get a distro or run it in a public cloud, which I think is.

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That is like a category that needs to exist.

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Right?

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Like, and again, the category is I am not building it my own on my own.

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I might run it on my own, but I'm not in charge of assembling it together.

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Right?

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Because, because the distinguish between a running Kubernetes, using a Kubernetes service,

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one of your KSs in the big public clouds versus like running a Kubernetes on your own, on your

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own infrastructure, like those are, those are also two very different things.

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And like comparing the two of them, like drags on all sorts of other conversations you need

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to have.

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So kind of contradicting what I was just saying, like, it's almost like I'm, I haven't really

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thought this out as you can tell, but here, here's an analogy and maybe you can help me

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out here, Ben.

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You remember three, four years ago when we went through one of those phases in the IT world

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where we were all obsessed with the developer, everyone was talking about how important developers

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were.

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And this was right around also when, when Kubernetes was like, you're like, Ooh, that horse kind

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of pulled the head over there.

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What's going on?

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And, and like the, the clever thing to do that you would do if you were Socrates was

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to be like, ah, but which type of developer?

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And then, and then you're like, oh no, we're in, we're in the soup now.

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Like now we're, we're, we're getting off and distracted.

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The point there being that like, people would say like, oh, you know, there's not just one

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type of developer.

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There's what, and, and to cut to the chase, most of the time, I think, and this is still

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the case when people say developer, most of the time, what most people mean is application

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developer, right?

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A developer who is, you know, uh, obviously screen readers and other things aside, uh,

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not aside, but like considered if you'll pardon the joke developers who move pixels on the

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screen, right?

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Like that's, I think what most people have in mind versus like, you know, embedded developers

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who work on like, when you press the accelerator in your car, your car goes and, you know, systems

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developers who work on chips and then our favorite platform developers, blah, blah, blah.

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Right.

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And so it also seems like, that's why I started thinking about, you know, Justin's like lumping

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together of all these Kubernetes things is like, I think it's increasingly important when

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people talk about Kubernetes to be like, ah, but which type of Kubernetes?

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Right.

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Because like, because like all of the, um, a lot of like the, the benefits and the problems

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that you're going to have with running your own Kubernetes, running Kubernetes on your own,

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let me phrase that are going to be different than if you're just using a Kubernetes that is

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run for you in the public cloud.

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Right.

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And they're, they're kind of like, there's not, there's increasingly not so much nuance between

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them.

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Like, like, it's pretty obvious that they're very different things.

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So like, for example, you know, if you're running one of the KSs, any KS will do in,

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in, in one of the three clouds or whatever, in a public cloud, like it's a lot easier.

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Like there's just like, there's like a whole lot of, I mean, it's public cloud.

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So there's just like a whole lot of stuff you don't have to do.

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Like you don't need to have, yeah.

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Yeah.

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And not only with installing and upgrading Kubernetes, but also like, you don't need to schedule a

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meeting with the networking team and you don't really need to like, you know, I was talking

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about this with one of our coworkers.

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There's stuff you need to do.

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It doesn't go away, but it's a lot different than like, you know, talking to the networking

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team in your own data center for your own on-premises stuff.

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Right.

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Like, and, and definitely, you know, there's even like another, uh, contemporaneous topic

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that comes up, I think in the, the, the public cloud Kubernetes things where like, it's a

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lot easier to get runaway costs in that situation.

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They're not in on-premises, right?

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Like, because of just the nature of how public cloud works, like, you know, I think it's a

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little cynical to say they're happy to let you overspend, but it's more just like, yeah,

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that's just the way it is.

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If you want limitless consumption possibility as a feature, that's exactly what you'll get.

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Limitless billing.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Whereas if you're running it on your own, eventually you'll just hit the physical limitation of your

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computers, right?

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Like you won't.

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Yeah.

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Although you'll burn money in different ways, won't you?

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Sure.

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I think a lot of folks underestimate the overheads involved in creating a good, you know, creating

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a good basic platform, you know?

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Right.

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No, totally.

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I mean, I think it's, it's beyond like CapEx, OpEx stuff that we were so enamored of in like

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2009.

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Uh, but like, no, I agree with you completely.

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Like, I think, I think maybe there are definitely wasted money in runaway costs.

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It just like happens a lot slower and a lot more like, not unexpectedly, but I think the

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point you're making, I cut you off is that like, you'll end up spending a lot more money on like

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people and like, you know, dealing with it than if you automate that stuff.

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But, um, you know, so you can end up, let me see if I can phrase this.

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You can end up being forced to spend more money than you want because you've made this decision

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and now you need to staff it.

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And now you need to take care of it, even though you didn't anticipate those.

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Whereas in the public cloud, you can end up spending a lot.

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You can end up accidentally spending a lot more money than you wanted to because you weren't,

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you didn't even know that would happen.

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Or you end up accepting a lower quality outcome, you know, or whereas in the cloud, you might

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have a extremely high quality outcome, but you're not using all the features.

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So, so yeah, yeah.

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Swings.

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Yeah.

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And then, and then also just to, just to be, uh, just to be clear about it.

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Right.

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00:14:20,740 --> 00:14:25,220
Like, I mean, I think all these things we're talking about are, are risks, not certainties.

224
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Right.

225
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,140
Like, like it's, I, you know, I've, I've, I've encountered a lot of like, you know,

226
00:14:30,980 --> 00:14:35,440
marketing, like you should like our stuff versus someone else's stuff recently.

227
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And like, I realized that's something that like, is people always forget about as like,

228
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:44,100
yeah, I mean, everything we're talking about has like a one to 5% chance of happening.

229
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So what we're talking about is just, you've got a different set of risks that you need to

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manage.

231
00:14:48,060 --> 00:14:53,320
Anyhow, I've a bit of lost track of what, what we were talking about here, but that's, that's

232
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probably a good sign.

233
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But, uh, yeah, so like, I, I, I was, I'm really like fascinated in this, like now new

234
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grouping of types of Kubernetes is Kubernetes, whatever it may be, you'll have to see how

235
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Greek is pluralized.

236
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Uh, but like, uh, because I, I think, I think, I think increasingly we need that in people

237
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who are in the kind of business where, and we need that kind of distinction because like,

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uh, I think a lot of the discussion about, for example, platform engineering, like it's very

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unclear if a platform engineer is in charge of building, running and maintaining Kubernetes,

240
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or if they're just in charge of kind of configuring it and run and, and running their platform on

241
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top of it, right.

242
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Which is very different things.

243
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:52,140
And like, you know, hopefully it's not the first because it's completely unrealistic that

244
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you could both own Kubernetes and own the platform.

245
00:15:58,520 --> 00:15:58,920
Yeah.

246
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,160
I think, I think they're very different problems.

247
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:01,380
Yeah.

248
00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:06,840
The, the, the, the platform engineering for me is, is all about, you know, the customer

249
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is the developer and, uh, you're helping them to, by creating automations that, that fit

250
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:22,140
into the way that they work and, and then how they work and, and save time in the way that

251
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they work.

252
00:16:22,580 --> 00:16:28,540
But that's a very different problem space to, can I run and manage Kubernetes, upgrade

253
00:16:28,540 --> 00:16:35,020
Kubernetes, um, make sure it's, uh, you know, integrated well and make sure we're capturing

254
00:16:35,020 --> 00:16:39,640
all the information that's coming in about Kubernetes all the time, all the changes, all

255
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,840
the, you know, the, the churn that happens in that particular space.

256
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:50,160
That's, that's a whole different set of problems for a whole different character role in my opinion

257
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anyway.

258
00:16:51,260 --> 00:16:51,380
Yeah.

259
00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:57,100
And there's no way that like a team of people would have enough time in their lives to handle

260
00:16:57,100 --> 00:17:02,520
that, like they would, they would burn out really quickly and do a terrible job at all

261
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:02,840
of it.

262
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:04,640
Yeah.

263
00:17:04,700 --> 00:17:08,320
Or, or, or, you know, you need to be able to look around yourself and say, actually, this

264
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:14,440
is, this is well staffed and it's well, it's well funded because if it's not, then the consequences

265
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:15,980
are in the quality side, aren't they?

266
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And you won't achieve what you want to achieve.

267
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:19,360
So totally right.

268
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,560
And, and, and so, so like, that's an example.

269
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,700
So platform engineering is an example of where you need this distinction of what type of Kubernetes

270
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you're talking about.

271
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:27,800
Right.

272
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,960
Cause like the, the kind of shallow discussion of platform engineering, but like, you know,

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00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:36,900
even, even I have had, even I, as if I'm some sort of like saintly person who avoids

274
00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:39,840
like a wrong talk all the time.

275
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,200
I think it's Coté of Texas.

276
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:41,920
Yeah.

277
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,720
Let me, let me, let me, let me go polish off my rhetoricians halo that I've got in my back

278
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pocket here.

279
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:58,200
Uh, but, uh, like, you know, I would assume that most of the people talking about platform

280
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:07,520
engineering are not, are probably running on the public KSs, right?

281
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,200
Like, like if they're running something on Kubernetes and they're talking about it, improve

282
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Kubernetes with platform engineering, which includes, you know, like getting backstage set

283
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,060
up and dealing with not dealing with, but getting build pipelines or supply chains, if you, if

284
00:18:21,060 --> 00:18:27,000
you prefer, uh, and like all that, all that middleware and developer tooling, like I, I

285
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:33,740
don't, it would be shocking if they are also not only selecting a Kubernetes distro to get

286
00:18:33,740 --> 00:18:37,960
up and running and talking with all your networking people to make sure that works and then maintaining

287
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:42,560
it and upgrading it and also making sure that it runs and they set all the policies, but

288
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:48,600
even worse, if they're DIY building it themselves, like that would just be bonkers.

289
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:53,620
And then that, and then that further implies that like, if I, I guess this is inferring,

290
00:18:53,740 --> 00:18:59,280
this is what I've learned from chat GPT is you, you, you say like, I'm just, I'm just a human

291
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or a large language model.

292
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:02,540
I don't know, but I can infer.

293
00:19:02,740 --> 00:19:04,160
And then you're off to the races.

294
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:04,940
It's great.

295
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:05,820
Just infer.

296
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:11,080
So what you can do is you can just tell it straight away in fur and, uh, isn't, isn't

297
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,340
that what captain Kirk would always do is he would say, speculate him, him and Kirk, you'd

298
00:19:15,340 --> 00:19:18,720
have to tell, you'd have to tell the computer in the Vulcan, him and Picard.

299
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:19,340
Oh, really?

300
00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:21,120
Oh, I haven't seen this for a long time.

301
00:19:21,220 --> 00:19:21,640
So I don't know.

302
00:19:22,060 --> 00:19:23,600
I guess Picard would have to tell data.

303
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,100
He would, he would have to command, command them to like, you know, don't give me these

304
00:19:27,100 --> 00:19:27,660
disclaimers.

305
00:19:27,660 --> 00:19:28,380
Just speculate.

306
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:35,980
Uh, anyways, that's, that's, uh, there's an equivalent in since you're such a big star

307
00:19:35,980 --> 00:19:39,720
Wars fan, remember when, uh, Han Solo keeps saying he doesn't like numbers, that's the

308
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,860
equivalent of saying speculate to C3PO.

309
00:19:45,220 --> 00:19:46,740
Never tell me the odds.

310
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:47,680
That's right.

311
00:19:48,300 --> 00:19:48,820
Anyhow.

312
00:19:49,380 --> 00:19:54,340
So, so that would imply that if you're doing like on premises cloud native stuff, right?

313
00:19:54,580 --> 00:20:00,900
It's highly likely that you have a whole separate team of people or roles and responsibilities

314
00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:06,240
that manage your Kubernetes stuff, because it would just be like insanely impossible otherwise,

315
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,100
or, or something else.

316
00:20:09,580 --> 00:20:10,960
Let's crowdsource this listeners.

317
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,480
You tell us, get in touch, tell us what you think.

318
00:20:14,540 --> 00:20:15,600
Are you doing it?

319
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:17,460
How do you do it?

320
00:20:17,620 --> 00:20:22,640
Do you, do you have lots of sort of your own data center with a whole bunch of Kubernetes

321
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,660
in it and you still have platform engineers and are still building a platform in a particular

322
00:20:26,660 --> 00:20:29,540
way, or is there a survey out there that you've seen?

323
00:20:29,620 --> 00:20:33,700
Have you seen a survey that already had some data on this that told us, you know, what the

324
00:20:33,700 --> 00:20:39,680
split might be between engineering, public cloud platform, engineering, private cloud,

325
00:20:39,860 --> 00:20:40,500
data center cloud.

326
00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:40,840
Yeah.

327
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,860
I should start asking that in talks that I give.

328
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,480
I have, I have a talk coming up at platform con, you know, the online thing, which probably

329
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:49,600
means there'll be a big audience.

330
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,580
And I won't remember to do this, but that would be a fun poll to ask people while I'm giving

331
00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:56,100
it is like where, where, which KS they have.

332
00:20:56,260 --> 00:21:01,780
Do they have my KS or, or, or, uh, one of the, the GAA KSs.

333
00:21:01,780 --> 00:21:03,700
I guess Amazon is EKS, right?

334
00:21:04,180 --> 00:21:05,360
So you don't have two A's.

335
00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:06,260
Yeah.

336
00:21:06,380 --> 00:21:09,960
GKE is a KE, not a KS, but yeah.

337
00:21:10,420 --> 00:21:11,200
Too many K's.

338
00:21:11,580 --> 00:21:12,080
Too many K's.

339
00:21:12,540 --> 00:21:13,740
They've all got K's.

340
00:21:14,420 --> 00:21:15,160
Highly related.

341
00:21:15,260 --> 00:21:16,720
The other one, I just wanted to go on briefly.

342
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,220
And you can, I think you can also, uh, I think humanitech licensed this one.

343
00:21:20,380 --> 00:21:21,960
So you can go download it if you want.

344
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:23,160
They'll be in the show notes, right?

345
00:21:23,740 --> 00:21:24,060
Exactly.

346
00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:25,740
Over at tanzutalk.com.

347
00:21:25,820 --> 00:21:29,360
But they, uh, I think, I think, uh, they commissioned a Forrester survey.

348
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:33,680
Uh, and it was basically a bunch of questions about platform engineering tools and initiatives.

349
00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:39,700
And, uh, you know, just, uh, I think, I think there's, there's two things I wanted to

350
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:44,760
high, well, I guess three things like the first, the first, uh, comment on it is that

351
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:50,500
if, if you, uh, this is an example of, uh, when you encounter charts like this, you have

352
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:53,940
to like put in some extra effort to find value in them.

353
00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:59,080
And I don't mean that to be like throwing shade or some offhanded thing, but more of an

354
00:21:59,080 --> 00:21:59,720
instructional thing.

355
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:04,800
Cause when I looked at it at first, I was like, Hmm, all of these answers are at, are either

356
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,160
38% or 48%.

357
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,260
They're all in this range.

358
00:22:08,260 --> 00:22:12,700
So like, if I, if, if I were to say like, I surveyed a hundred people about what their

359
00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:17,320
favorite type of sandwiches and like, you know, you had, you had, uh, five types of sandwiches.

360
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,640
I can't do math that fast.

361
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:24,340
And, and, and therefore like, you know, you had five types of sandwiches and each sandwich

362
00:22:24,340 --> 00:22:29,080
was rated somewhere between like 25 and 35% of people said they liked it.

363
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,200
You would be like, well, I guess people like everything.

364
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,800
Like, there's no like obvious winner.

365
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,240
There's no, like, you know, you don't have the, uh, you don't have like 80% for pastrami

366
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,880
for pastrami on rye, like with melted, uh, Swiss cheese and, and, and, and horser, you know,

367
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,520
sauerkraut on top, which is clearly the best sandwich there is.

368
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,480
Uh, maybe with some, for what outcome?

369
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,000
Early death.

370
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:01,640
This is, this is the, uh, this is the, uh, the, the, uh, the hedonism sandwich index.

371
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:08,800
I think it's, I think it depends which outcome you're measuring anyway.

372
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,640
So, so this, this, this is kind of like everyone likes, you know, there, there is no outstanding

373
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:18,740
sandwich type of chart if you look at it, but what's instructive to look at is there's

374
00:23:18,740 --> 00:23:19,800
one question in particular.

375
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:26,240
That's like, uh, what benefits have you achieved by like, uh, addressing and improving developer

376
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:31,300
experience, which like developer experience is a fun word, but I just rewrite it in my head

377
00:23:31,300 --> 00:23:32,900
as like productivity, right?

378
00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:35,620
Like just better tools for developers so they can do a better job.

379
00:23:35,620 --> 00:23:39,540
And there's a certain amount to it of just like also developers being happy and having

380
00:23:39,540 --> 00:23:44,260
less cognitive load and like, you know, enjoying life more awesome.

381
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:44,960
Right.

382
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,520
But like productivity is a little more like a tangible to me.

383
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,280
Um, and so you look at that chart and you've got like, there is no outstanding sandwich chart.

384
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,100
However, that's a misreading of the question, which is the way when you, when I look at that

385
00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:02,640
chart, what I realized is that, oh, when you improve developer productivity or developer

386
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,320
experience, everything gets better, right?

387
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:10,360
So like, there's not only one thing that gets better, but all of these different things have

388
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,720
a high chance of improving and getting better, which is great.

389
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,780
Like that's, that's a great thing you want to know about developer experience because

390
00:24:16,780 --> 00:24:21,860
investing in a developer experience is, I always mix this up, is a

391
00:24:21,860 --> 00:24:28,840
we would call it a non-functional requirement, which is it doesn't move pixels on the screen

392
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,400
or introduce new features.

393
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,620
So it has no, well, look at all these fancy terms I'm trying to use.

394
00:24:34,620 --> 00:24:38,140
It has no first order business value, right?

395
00:24:38,140 --> 00:24:44,060
Like, so like if, so for example, if we had a, if the team of developers says in this, this,

396
00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:48,880
uh, this one to four week iteration, we're going to rewrite how we do our builds.

397
00:24:49,020 --> 00:24:54,060
And then the product manager and the business is going to say, so, um, what new feature

398
00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:54,900
are you going to release?

399
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,200
And the developer would say nothing.

400
00:24:57,940 --> 00:25:02,700
And then the business person would say, hmm, how about you keep using the same build and

401
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:03,440
add that new feature?

402
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:04,460
I need to make more money.

403
00:25:05,660 --> 00:25:10,560
So, however, you know, so you get in these kinds of discussions, whereas like what you

404
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,360
have with a result like this is you show like, no, no, look, it actually does increase customer

405
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:18,280
experience and business profitability and all these other things.

406
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:18,520
Right.

407
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,400
In the same way, like the analogy that I use now that I have in my head nowadays is

408
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:28,180
like, you know, if you were to go to a manufacturer and if you were to say, Hey, business wise,

409
00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:32,680
if we made your factory run better, you would get that that makes you more money.

410
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:33,020
Right.

411
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,720
And they would say, yes, because I'm not insane.

412
00:25:35,860 --> 00:25:38,300
I know how manufacturing business works.

413
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:43,000
Whereas like, I don't think we quite have that ingrained in us so much in the, uh, the

414
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,880
software world, we don't have like an intuitive, no doubt understanding that if you improve

415
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,500
how the tools and the process that developers use, that it will result in a, uh, a better

416
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:52,880
business.

417
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,760
Cause cause also that's not always the case as well, since we're not a factory.

418
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,500
I know I like in this report, how the, the, the, the using and reusing this phrase, there's

419
00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:07,960
coming up more and more the idea of an internal developer platform, you know, so it's not just

420
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,820
about the platform engineering, but it's also about the people who benefit from it.

421
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:13,720
Yeah.

422
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,440
I think, you know, I think that's good.

423
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:17,340
Yeah.

424
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:22,220
You, you've actually, you've actually fixed a, uh, a word choice problem.

425
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:23,340
Let's see.

426
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:30,180
Do they actually say EDP, E IDP is an internal developer platform or did they, did they say

427
00:26:30,180 --> 00:26:30,680
portal?

428
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,020
No platform.

429
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:32,520
Yeah.

430
00:26:32,580 --> 00:26:32,920
Oh, good.

431
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,520
Because, because originally IDP is like a portal internal developer portal.

432
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:41,820
And no, no, they're going, I think, I think they mean, yeah, I think they mean it

433
00:26:41,820 --> 00:26:42,520
as a platform.

434
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:48,400
So, you know, not just covering the sort of, you know, the gooey sort of aspects of, can

435
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,420
I see what's going on around me, but more.

436
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:51,020
Yeah.

437
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:51,380
Yeah.

438
00:26:51,460 --> 00:26:54,260
But also in addition to that, the supply.

439
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,080
And so that's what I like about that is, is as, as I'm, I'm always very open and sharing,

440
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,200
I think internal developer portal is one of the worst names we've had in a long time.

441
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:08,920
Like just because like the word portal, I don't, I, I, maybe I haven't, I haven't done a survey

442
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:16,700
with the, uh, generation Z or whatever, but I feel like no developer responds well to the

443
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:17,360
word portal.

444
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:25,300
Like I, I, I, I put the blame for that firmly at, um, web, web logic, web logic portal.

445
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,160
You and I can probably both remember that.

446
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:29,540
Yeah.

447
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,420
But, but, but I think if, if, if you go through and you make the P stand for platform, now

448
00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:35,760
you've got something, right?

449
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,080
Like, I think that, that, in fact, that's, I think that's really, that's really good.

450
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:43,220
That's like a five minute, like little lightning talk there, Ben, that you've come up with.

451
00:27:43,220 --> 00:27:48,940
It's like, I like to use the bouncy castle analogy, you know, the portal is just your way into

452
00:27:48,940 --> 00:27:51,880
the bouncy castle, but the platform is the whole thing, right?

453
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,500
It's the thing that gives you the fun, right?

454
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:55,820
Yeah, that's that.

455
00:27:55,980 --> 00:27:56,220
Sure.

456
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:57,120
I love it.

457
00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:00,280
That's, that's, uh, that's a, that's a minute three of the five minute talk.

458
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:03,240
I love it.

459
00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:03,460
Yeah.

460
00:28:03,460 --> 00:28:03,960
So yeah.

461
00:28:04,540 --> 00:28:09,600
Uh, developer platforms are bouncy castles and pick it to ride.

462
00:28:10,140 --> 00:28:13,160
And then anything, uh, you know, listeners can go, uh,

463
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,660
go look up the report if you like it.

464
00:28:14,740 --> 00:28:17,460
We'll, we'll throw some free lead gen over to humanitech there.

465
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:18,920
See, see, see how they're doing.

466
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,280
But, uh, also, uh, you know, there's also a finding that like 51%.

467
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,240
So let's just say here, here's how you can tell if someone's like an advertising or not.

468
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,560
Should I say half or over half?

469
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:37,800
Uh, but 51% of the people, uh, are, are planning on investing more money in, uh, in, uh, you know,

470
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,740
developer, you know, uh, productivity experience.

471
00:28:40,740 --> 00:28:42,980
So, so there's people who actually want to spend money.

472
00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:44,100
In time to improve it.

473
00:28:44,140 --> 00:28:50,800
Although it doesn't specify if invest means money or time, but whatever, you know, uh,

474
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,520
yeah, both, both probably.

475
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:52,920
Yeah.

476
00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:53,540
Yeah.

477
00:28:53,660 --> 00:28:58,860
I think, you know, and it's, this, this, you know, they clarify this, this point around

478
00:28:58,860 --> 00:29:03,740
platforms as well, which is, which is one key point that I think differentiates it from

479
00:29:03,740 --> 00:29:04,260
a portal.

480
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:04,900
Right.

481
00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:11,340
So, so they say here, uh, in the report, um, reducing the bottlenecks caused by ticket

482
00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:12,500
ops, right?

483
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:15,920
You don't really get that from a portal.

484
00:29:16,540 --> 00:29:16,860
Yeah.

485
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,500
You can only get that from self-service through having services come to you, be able to just

486
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:27,600
commission them yourself as a developer, not having to raise tickets for, you know, firewalls

487
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,640
and all sorts of other things, databases, all that kind of stuff.

488
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:31,820
So it is different.

489
00:29:31,820 --> 00:29:33,080
I think, uh, I like that.

490
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,040
I like this report.

491
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:34,360
It's good.

492
00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:35,180
Yeah.

493
00:29:35,340 --> 00:29:35,600
Yeah.

494
00:29:35,660 --> 00:29:37,320
So, uh, people should check that out.

495
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:38,280
That, that'll be fun.

496
00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:38,880
Yeah.

497
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:39,960
But that's what we have this week.

498
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,680
Uh, you know, that's all.

499
00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:47,920
Well, in that case, I'm a bombshell.

500
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,160
I think it's time to end.

501
00:29:49,380 --> 00:29:49,480
Right.

502
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:52,760
Well, you know, thanks for listening.

503
00:29:52,860 --> 00:29:56,160
And if you like this show, it'd be great to, uh, you know, to share it with people.

504
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,060
Just, just leave us some comments or, or whatever, uh, you may like.

505
00:30:00,380 --> 00:30:03,420
Uh, and, uh, you can also, you know, find links to those two things.

506
00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:06,760
If you go to tonsutalk.com and we'll see everyone next time.

507
00:30:07,660 --> 00:30:08,340
Bye-bye.