1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,120 We're starting a new series here, Cora and I. 2 00:00:03,540 --> 00:00:09,100 We're going to, you know, whether it's books or articles or just some idea that we had 3 00:00:09,100 --> 00:00:13,240 while we were doing something, but you're sort of having a conversation about some artifact. 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:14,740 We don't really have a name for it yet. 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:20,240 But to kick off, Cora thought, had a great idea that we should check out a book from 6 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:25,960 some of our former co-workers called DevSecOps and Practice with VMware Tanzu, which I read 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,160 through it, and it was a great overview of the different components of Tanzu and what 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:30,560 they do. 9 00:00:31,140 --> 00:00:32,480 What about yourself, Cora? 10 00:00:32,940 --> 00:00:34,860 How would you kind of summarize this book? 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:41,200 Well, so, I mean, in the title, you'll have this idea of DevSecOps, right, with a particular 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,380 product coming from VMware. 13 00:00:42,380 --> 00:00:47,660 So the breadth of it is quite wide, touching the interests of developers, of operations, 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:54,940 of security, and sort of this idea of managing software end-to-end with a platform that's 15 00:00:54,940 --> 00:00:56,640 built on top of Kubernetes. 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,860 And so the book does a really great job. 17 00:00:59,980 --> 00:01:01,640 I really enjoyed reading it as well. 18 00:01:02,740 --> 00:01:10,020 It does a great job of laying out what the challenge is at every stage in this end-to-end 19 00:01:10,020 --> 00:01:10,640 process. 20 00:01:10,980 --> 00:01:16,400 Challenges for developers, challenges for operators, challenges for security teams. 21 00:01:17,380 --> 00:01:25,960 And it just kind of goes step-by-step presenting the answer to that problem from within the Tanzu 22 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:26,420 suite. 23 00:01:26,420 --> 00:01:37,920 And so Tanzu itself is a platform that is an opinionated, curated, and integrated sort of 24 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,860 coalition, I guess, of built on top of a lot of open source projects. 25 00:01:44,420 --> 00:01:50,240 And so the book is divided into three sections, build, run, and manage. 26 00:01:50,340 --> 00:01:53,780 So in the first section of the book, it talks all about building applications. 27 00:01:54,560 --> 00:02:00,380 In the second, it's more about how you get them to runtime and that initial runtime platform. 28 00:02:00,380 --> 00:02:03,680 And then the last part of the book is about managing them at scale. 29 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:10,460 When you have many Kubernetes clusters, many applications running on many clusters, how do you actually 30 00:02:10,460 --> 00:02:11,580 do that as an organization? 31 00:02:11,780 --> 00:02:21,480 So I think it brings to the forefront this idea of what do we mean by a platform in this modern day 32 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:33,140 and age because it does a platform today, I think, addresses the needs of developers working to manage a lot of 33 00:02:33,140 --> 00:02:39,620 different applications and APIs and collaborate, and then the actual pipelining, moving of those 34 00:02:39,620 --> 00:02:45,080 applications securely and reliably to production, and then making sure that everything is running in 35 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:51,300 production well and that you know what's going on there across a fleet of Kubernetes clusters. 36 00:02:51,540 --> 00:02:53,580 But I think the book, it covers all of that. 37 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,300 It describes the problem in general, and it shows you the solution that VMware is offering 38 00:02:58,300 --> 00:02:58,960 through the Tanzu. 39 00:02:59,060 --> 00:03:00,420 So yeah, it does a great job of all of that. 40 00:03:01,060 --> 00:03:02,320 So yeah, I really enjoyed it. 41 00:03:02,340 --> 00:03:04,540 And I'm looking forward to talking to the authors. 42 00:03:05,100 --> 00:03:05,540 Yeah, yeah. 43 00:03:05,580 --> 00:03:11,280 And as you're saying, right, like there's, if you break down the process of getting your 44 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:17,520 software into production, you know, figuring out how to package and containerize it, all the 45 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,860 stuff, more or less aside from coding, like, like that's, there's a little bit involved in coding 46 00:03:22,860 --> 00:03:27,400 when it comes to like the gateways, the API gateways and things like that, that you would 47 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:27,700 use. 48 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,720 But it's mostly about the running of your application and the way that it's configured and the way 49 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,200 that it goes through the factory of how you're creating it. 50 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,220 There's a whole bunch of components involved in there, and they do a great job of kind of 51 00:03:39,220 --> 00:03:43,880 identifying all those components in a cloud native app and describing the different components 52 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,340 of the Tanzu portfolio that addresses it. 53 00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:49,720 And, and also at the beginning, it's great. 54 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,440 There's, we, we get a fifth guest that was very excited about a squirrel, which, which 55 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:55,100 I enjoyed. 56 00:04:06,020 --> 00:04:08,440 First, let's have the two authors introduce themselves. 57 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:10,180 So we'll start with myself. 58 00:04:10,660 --> 00:04:13,940 Thank you, Cora and Coté for giving us this opportunity to be here. 59 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:15,260 I'm Parz Pandit. 60 00:04:15,260 --> 00:04:21,020 So to introduce myself, I started my journey as a developer beginning in 2002. 61 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,960 And since then, I organically grew from a developer to a kind of project management. 62 00:04:27,220 --> 00:04:32,540 And then eventually, based on my technical areas of Intel, I jumped into the world of architecture. 63 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,200 And then I was fascinated by how the cloud ecosystem was evolved. 64 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,220 In 2015, 2016, and then jumped into that area. 65 00:04:40,220 --> 00:04:44,940 And I got a fascinating opportunity to work with Peutal in 2018. 66 00:04:44,940 --> 00:04:53,360 And then I learned about how you can scale and deploy thousands of containers on a platform like Cloud Foundry. 67 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:59,360 And then eventually, Cloud Foundry grew into the other side of the container world. 68 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,660 I know it as Kubernetes and Tanzu came up to the surface. 69 00:05:03,660 --> 00:05:08,920 So I had a very good ride with VMware Tanzu for a couple of years with VMware. 70 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:18,260 And then just about the time when this book was published, I got a bittersweet moment where I got an opportunity to be a cloud architect with AWS. 71 00:05:18,260 --> 00:05:28,420 So I thought to even explore this public cloud domain, whereas I was mostly working in the private cloud domain with Tanzu and Peutal Cloud Foundry. 72 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,060 And I grabbed that opportunity. 73 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:36,960 So that's where we are here, mostly working in the architecture space around containers and cloud ecosystem. 74 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:38,000 That's me, Parth. 75 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:38,460 Thank you. 76 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:39,860 Yeah, thanks, Parth. 77 00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:48,760 And the fifth participant in our conversation today is a completely out of control doodle puppy that I have no control over. 78 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:50,280 So apologies in advance. 79 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:51,220 I'm Rob. 80 00:05:51,220 --> 00:05:53,820 I like a lot of software people. 81 00:05:54,020 --> 00:05:57,580 I have a degree in such a phone performance from the University of Rochester. 82 00:05:58,820 --> 00:05:59,340 Wow. 83 00:05:59,340 --> 00:06:06,620 I quickly learned that that was not a viable way to navigate life touring around. 84 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:08,460 So I taught myself a job. 85 00:06:08,540 --> 00:06:15,940 I got my job, got my first coding job at a grocery retailer, a big presence in one of Coté's former hometowns. 86 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,560 Worked my way kind of to the top there. 87 00:06:19,540 --> 00:06:24,360 That was, yeah, after about 16 years, it was time to do something else. 88 00:06:24,580 --> 00:06:25,960 I got a call from a recruiter. 89 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:32,960 So I checked out the company on YouTube and there was this hairy guy in Austin talking about changing how you write software. 90 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,540 And I said, oh, this sounds pretty, sounds pretty intriguing. 91 00:06:35,540 --> 00:06:54,820 So I jumped over to Pivotal where I got thrown into the deep end and learned a lot in a very short time and kind of got a front row seat at kind of changing how witnessing and helping some household name companies, you know, change how they build and deliver software. 92 00:06:54,940 --> 00:06:58,740 So, yeah, that was that was that was a that was a huge change for me. 93 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:13,020 And, you know, I kind of witnessed the evolution from Cloud Foundry kind of morphing into, you know, into Kubernetes and then kind of landing at what we now think of as the Tanzu portfolio. 94 00:07:13,020 --> 00:07:30,700 So it's kind of rolling series of ever increasing abstraction kind of going from, you know, bare metal containers to cloud to, you know, container orchestration like Kubernetes and then finally to kind of a completely realized platform like Tanzu. 95 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,320 So, yeah, that's kind of how I landed where I am. 96 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:39,660 You know, there was this period in my daughter's life where she was maybe, let's say, two and a half. 97 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:49,900 And every time my wife and I would start talking, my daughter would just start talking her babbling talk, like just, you know, no words or nonsense, just kind of keeping up with us. 98 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:58,460 And so, like, I feel like, one, that was that was a, as they say, tour de force of professionalism to give your introduction while the dog was in the background. 99 00:07:58,460 --> 00:08:05,600 And it also reminded me of that that cute period in my daughter's life where she was just like, I'm going to I'm going to join into this conversation. 100 00:08:05,940 --> 00:08:06,140 Thanks. 101 00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:09,980 I thought I was like, are you comparing your daughter to a dog? 102 00:08:09,980 --> 00:08:11,900 I was like, is that where you're going to be cute? 103 00:08:12,180 --> 00:08:14,460 I golden doodles are is it a golden doodle? 104 00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:17,380 There's a labradoodle, but yeah, gorgeous. 105 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,580 But this is this is the most epic squirrel encounter we've ever had. 106 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:23,900 So she's so excited for you. 107 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:25,260 She's like, you wrote a book. 108 00:08:25,300 --> 00:08:26,000 This is amazing. 109 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaking of which, I'm I'm curious because, you know, normally you go to the you know, you go to the bookstore and you pick out a book and you don't know the author. 110 00:08:33,300 --> 00:08:35,760 And, you know, I you know, you put them on a pedestal. 111 00:08:35,820 --> 00:08:37,040 I still put you two on a pedestal. 112 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,460 But but it's amazing to know the authors. 113 00:08:39,460 --> 00:08:39,760 Right. 114 00:08:39,780 --> 00:08:41,300 And to know that they're they're your colleagues. 115 00:08:41,300 --> 00:08:46,340 So I'm I'm always curious about, you know, what like what inspired you to write a book at all? 116 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:47,960 What inspired you to write this book? 117 00:08:48,020 --> 00:08:49,560 And what was that process like? 118 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:51,900 And I don't know, you know, what did you get out of it? 119 00:08:51,940 --> 00:08:54,240 Maybe if you got something out of it that you didn't expect. 120 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:54,960 Yeah. 121 00:08:55,500 --> 00:08:56,440 Let me take that up. 122 00:08:56,560 --> 00:09:11,780 So it all started from a, you know, it was a kind of rippling effect when I participated in a global competition that we had internally within VMware to build and deliver a demo of end to end Tanzu. 123 00:09:12,020 --> 00:09:29,560 And I think I did a good job in that and marketing team noticed that and they approached me that, hey, do you want to write a blog about what you have been an end to end story about how Tanzu is solving the problem of DevSecOps, the supply chain for every step of the development journey. 124 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:39,660 So I wrote that blog on VMware and that was noticed by TPEC publication that this is a good narrative of what this technology is about. 125 00:09:39,820 --> 00:09:41,500 There wasn't any book in the market. 126 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,500 And being them, the publisher, they approached me that, do you want to write a book about this thing? 127 00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:50,600 Just expand this whole blog into a book and put more details into it. 128 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:58,120 And I was like, yeah, well, I can, I can't because that was the first time I have ever thought about writing a book. 129 00:09:58,180 --> 00:10:03,920 I never thought of like, yes, it was always a kind of to-do list and wish list that I wanted to do, but this was it. 130 00:10:03,980 --> 00:10:07,680 And I was nervous at the same time because I didn't do that. 131 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,160 And it's a huge amount of work. 132 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:18,900 So I and Rob partnered before in a few projects that we did together and I have a huge respect for him and he's always dependable. 133 00:10:19,060 --> 00:10:21,960 So I approached him, would you like to partner with me? 134 00:10:22,380 --> 00:10:25,700 This is the opportunity in front of me and I don't think I can do it alone. 135 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,900 Let's do it together and divide the work and we can provide you good justice to it. 136 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:31,400 And that's where we are. 137 00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:34,660 I'll add a little bit of color commentary to the Rob Parth dynamic. 138 00:10:34,660 --> 00:10:44,820 So the way that we were teammates at VMware for quite a few years and the way that we generally operated is that Parth would call me up and he'd say, hey, I've got this thing I'm thinking of. 139 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:53,580 It's going to be five, 10, 100,000, 10,000 hours, nights and weekends, time away from family, no personal life. 140 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:59,080 Life is going to be a perpetual chore for three, six, nine months of your life. 141 00:10:59,160 --> 00:10:59,680 You want to do it? 142 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:01,140 And I say, yeah, buddy, let's do it. 143 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:02,640 But in retrospect. 144 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:03,080 Partnership. 145 00:11:03,620 --> 00:11:04,460 Yeah, exactly. 146 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,540 So that's, you know, I think Parth would tell you that's kind of how we operated at VMware. 147 00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:23,400 And I think this was just the kind of the expression of that kind of working relationship, you know, like the different presentations and customer engagements, proofs of concepts that we did at VMware. 148 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:28,800 They all kind of culminated in putting all of our learnings and findings in a book. 149 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,960 So, you know, that would be my contribution. 150 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:32,360 I think it's amazing. 151 00:11:32,620 --> 00:11:40,900 Like it's, you know, to start with a start with a demo and then, you know, that becomes a blog and eventually that becomes a book. 152 00:11:40,980 --> 00:11:42,020 That's an amazing story. 153 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:50,480 And I think it's like, you know, people, anybody out there who's listening, who has this thought that they couldn't write a book or it's too, you know, it's too big of an endeavor. 154 00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:54,100 It's I think probably I imagine a lot of stories are like that, right? 155 00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:58,420 You start with something small and that gets good feedback and you grow it and then it takes another form. 156 00:11:58,460 --> 00:12:01,040 And eventually you get to places maybe you didn't imagine. 157 00:12:01,580 --> 00:12:07,340 Yeah, it's such a it's such a tired expression, but really the the blank page is your enemy, right? 158 00:12:07,340 --> 00:12:17,620 If you just sit down and write something, you know, and get over that initial inertia, you'll be amazing at what you I mean, I read through the book now and I say, do we really write all of this? 159 00:12:18,020 --> 00:12:20,340 Like where did all that where did all that time come from? 160 00:12:20,660 --> 00:12:20,820 Yeah. 161 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:27,040 And then you also have the the other the other depressing effect where you're like, I don't remember what's in this book. 162 00:12:27,620 --> 00:12:28,500 But we have to read it. 163 00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:31,020 So that if you know him, that's the other thing. 164 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:32,380 Go ahead. 165 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:45,060 Yeah. So just wanted to add one more thing into this mixture, like it would be unfair if I don't call out David Kramer, my ex-manager in Tanzu, who pushed me that this is a big opportunity. 166 00:12:45,060 --> 00:12:47,440 If you are thinking to let it go, don't do it. 167 00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:49,580 It doesn't happen often in life. 168 00:12:50,180 --> 00:12:50,980 Just go for it. 169 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,820 I know it's huge work, but he pushed me and I eventually got into it. 170 00:12:54,820 --> 00:12:55,840 So big thank you to him. 171 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:56,960 I owe him a lot. 172 00:12:57,260 --> 00:12:58,440 Yeah, I second that. 173 00:12:58,520 --> 00:12:58,880 Absolutely. 174 00:12:59,180 --> 00:12:59,360 Yeah. 175 00:12:59,500 --> 00:12:59,740 Amazing. 176 00:12:59,940 --> 00:13:05,400 So so as you were writing this book, who who were you writing it for? 177 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,420 What was your what was the audience that you envisioned? 178 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:25,160 I had a very there's there's a few audiences in mind, but really I had in mind 2015 Rob Hart, honestly, because I was writing the book for because I I was delivering software of, you know, depending on who you ask, you know, some some degree of quality. 179 00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:27,640 And, you know, I thought I was doing things right. 180 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,440 I thought I was solving the right problems. 181 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:35,020 And then, you know, as the as your scale and scope increases ever outward. 182 00:13:35,020 --> 00:13:35,300 Right. 183 00:13:35,340 --> 00:13:44,300 As I got, you know, I got to pivot old VMware and learn from people who are doing things at massive, massive scale that I never could have even imagined this. 184 00:13:44,740 --> 00:13:51,800 These entire classes of problems start to emerge, like it's like you don't know what you don't know. 185 00:13:52,020 --> 00:13:58,140 And then then you learn that and then you realize there's another level of you don't know what you know and there's a level after that. 186 00:13:58,140 --> 00:14:16,120 And so having progressed through, you know, three, four, 10, 12 kind of iterations of abstraction on abstraction, I thought, man, maybe maybe there's some value in putting this on paper and sharing it with people who are in some some phase of that journey. 187 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:16,440 Right. 188 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,200 So you can learn what are the right problems to solve? 189 00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:26,040 What should you be focusing on where you're actually delivering value as a software professional? 190 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:34,900 So developer, security engineer, you know, opera, you know, dev engineer, operations person, you know, dev sec op. 191 00:14:35,020 --> 00:14:35,160 Right. 192 00:14:35,540 --> 00:14:45,920 Those are our people, but really people that are in some stage of their journey and kind of increasing their value prop as an engineer. 193 00:14:45,920 --> 00:15:00,900 You know, like y'all spend a little bit of time in the book kind of talking about what you just discussed, like the the milieu, if I pronounce that right, that that your your ideal reader sort of stews in to mix metaphors or whatever. 194 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:13,040 But like, especially with the background that y'all both have, you know, and and also having worked at a couple of different places working in the same industry, like, well, let me put it this way. 195 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:27,160 When I think about like what what we we collectively here have done over the years, you know, at Pivotal and then in VMware Tanzu, like I'm 70 percent sure it's mostly for large organizations, but I don't know. 196 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:36,860 Right. Like, like, like I throw that out every now and then that like to some people and then often people come back and talk about like, well, I don't know if you had two development teams, these things would apply as well. 197 00:15:36,860 --> 00:15:39,560 But like, I feel like, what would you call it? 198 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:49,580 The the floor, like, like the you must be this high to ride this ride is like you probably need 500 developers, 200. 199 00:15:49,580 --> 00:15:57,180 I don't know, like, like, like, that's the wrong way to gauge the present you have or the opportunities that lie ahead of you. 200 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:10,580 But like what what's especially after going through this and and, you know, seeing working at a new place like what you're thinking about the type and scale of organization that something like a Tanzu applies to part. 201 00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:25,500 Do you mind if I I'll start this one off, too, because I had a I had a I had an observation about this based on, you know, so I moved kind of out of solutions architecture into a kind of core systems development engineering role now for, you know, a big, big cloud provider. 202 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:31,680 So I'm kind of doing in practice what we were helping customers do at at VMware and Tanzu, right? 203 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:40,920 And I realized we're we're a small team, but our pipeline to engineer ratio, I think, is about five to one, right? 204 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,320 Like maybe between 10 and 20 developers. 205 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,660 And last night, I don't think anybody could even rattle off all our pipelines. 206 00:16:47,660 --> 00:16:50,800 It's probably 50 to 75 pipelines, right? 207 00:16:50,800 --> 00:17:10,880 So it's not necessarily even the number of developers, it's more of the scope of what you're doing, I think is as right from more valuable, a smaller team of engineers is able to, you know, take advantage of these very various kind of force multipliers and operate at this massive scale and scope. 208 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:32,480 So you might have a single team of 10 or 15 engineers, but they've got, let's say, 50 pipelines, you know, for the various products that they're that they're, you know, managing from a tool like Tanzu is absolutely applicable to them, even though there's only 10 developers, right, because the scale of what they're doing is so huge. 209 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:38,480 And I don't think it's that uncommon, I don't think it's that uncommon anymore for small teams to be working on these kind of massive scale projects. 210 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:45,700 So it's really, you know, I'd put it in terms as a unit of work, if you're doing CICD, like number of pipelines, right? 211 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:58,320 So yeah, yeah, you've got five pipelines, you can probably manage a 10, you know, if you're a team of 10 guys, uh, and gals and people with, uh, you know, 70 pipelines. 212 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:05,660 Um, you are, you know, you're probably kind of constantly scrambling, keep everything up to date, right? 213 00:18:05,660 --> 00:18:12,920 When a log four J comes out and you've got 70 pipelines, you've got to go check all of a sudden your life becomes very unpleasant. 214 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:19,680 So maybe, maybe the inflection point where it becomes really valuable is 20, 30 pipelines, right? 215 00:18:19,780 --> 00:18:23,740 Like that kind of economy of scale really, really kicks in. 216 00:18:23,820 --> 00:18:24,800 Do you want to add anything part? 217 00:18:25,180 --> 00:18:32,840 Yeah, only a couple of thoughts here that today you might be small and you might not need that complex toolkit in your, in your bag. 218 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:42,400 It's about thinking what's possible, about thinking what problems lies ahead when you grow in scale and what problems that you may need to solve. 219 00:18:42,820 --> 00:18:55,900 So if you're small today, that's fine, I mean, we would say that just go through the book and see what are the scaling problems that you might encounter down the line and how this toolkit will help you solve them. 220 00:18:56,180 --> 00:19:07,620 So it's about doing the right thing from get go rather than course correct yourself, starting on the wrong foot and then find out that, oh, we have been doing this wrongly so far. 221 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,340 And this is the right way of doing it. 222 00:19:09,420 --> 00:19:10,940 This is how it can be done better. 223 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:12,320 I mean, it's interesting. 224 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:17,400 You bring up in the book this idea that every time you solve one problem, right? 225 00:19:17,460 --> 00:19:26,320 You discover a whole, every, every solution to one problem sort of like catalyzes a whole new set of problems, right? 226 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:38,280 There's so, uh, if you're managing VMs, uh, then containerization will solve your problem of managing VMs, but then that can explode into a lot of applications that you have to manage. 227 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,280 And then Kubernetes is the answer to that, uh, proliferation of containers problem. 228 00:19:43,420 --> 00:19:47,240 So somewhere in the book, you also talk about, uh, you say two things that I think were interesting. 229 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:56,640 One is that, uh, Tonsu is the answer to the problems that Kubernetes has a sort of, um, unveiled, I guess. 230 00:19:57,300 --> 00:20:03,140 Um, and then, uh, at another point you say that Tonsu is sort of the next generation platform. 231 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:19,300 So this conversation on, on whether or not this is for only for large customers or large, you know, large teams, um, it makes me think that probably in the evolution of Tonsu, I mean, I'd like you to speak in general about this whole idea of Tonsu as the next generation and the problems that Kubernetes unlocked. 232 00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:29,160 So we can spend some time on that, but, um, but it just made me think that as, as Tonsu has evolved, it solved those problems of managing things at scale that Kubernetes brought on. 233 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:37,560 But at the same time, it created sort of a path the other way where, where we're also now addressing sort of point needs that are per, per application, right? 234 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:45,360 Like if you don't have to be managing a hundred applications to have to make sure that your one application is totally secure, right? 235 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:51,580 And so once you start looking at things at that granular level, it's hard to say this is only for customers at scale, right? 236 00:20:51,640 --> 00:21:02,080 It's sort of Tonsu maybe, uh, uh, spreading its, its breath so far out that you it's, maybe it's no longer just for a big scale companies, but so I know that was a lot. 237 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,660 So I guess let's start, let me break that down for you. 238 00:21:04,660 --> 00:21:11,900 What are the problems that, that Kubernetes has, has brought on for us that we have to solve that even give Tonsu a reason to. 239 00:21:12,140 --> 00:21:13,640 You're welcome to jump in, Parth. 240 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,360 I always have something to say, so, um, okay. 241 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,360 Um, yeah, that's a great question. 242 00:21:18,460 --> 00:21:24,260 So first off your, your synopsis of chapter one was so much clearer than the actual text of chapter one. 243 00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:32,200 So I'm going to, uh, probably record this and maybe in the, in the next edition, I'm just going to give the, uh, core version of it. 244 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:37,580 But, um, anyway, the problems, um, that Kubernetes presents you're, you're exactly right. 245 00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:44,480 Like there's the sort of evolving consciousness and this is why I say I wrote it for the 2015 me, because I feel like I've made a few evolutions. 246 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:56,140 And, um, one thing we saw, we saw, you know, when we were back in the cloud foundry days, we saw a lot of customers doing Kubernetes and Kubernetes was going to answer all of their, you know, it's going to solve all their problem. 247 00:21:56,660 --> 00:22:01,360 And in the world, the high tower, you know, Kubernetes is a platform for building platforms. 248 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:09,680 So each individual software team, uh, was effectively building their own platform to develop, to deliver their product. 249 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:10,020 Right. 250 00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:20,840 Or if you're a team with, you know, 50 pipelines, each of those pipelines might, uh, might have baked into it, its own kind of mini platform for delivering that particular piece of functionality. 251 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:21,360 Right. 252 00:22:21,380 --> 00:22:30,080 And that is, um, that is a, uh, waste of, uh, time and money and attention and brain cycles, right. 253 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,060 To rebuild a platform every time. 254 00:22:32,060 --> 00:22:43,020 So the idea is, and as an architect at a big company, you know, like, um, you think you're the guy that can build that one platform that will work for every team at the company. 255 00:22:43,020 --> 00:22:43,280 Right. 256 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,740 And I've met that guy at probably 15 different customers, right. 257 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,420 They, they, we exist everywhere. 258 00:22:48,780 --> 00:23:02,840 Um, the truth is, is that building platforms is really hard and building a platform that a works and delivers value and B will be adopted by all those different teams is extraordinary. 259 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,660 And there, it's a lot harder than it sounds. 260 00:23:04,660 --> 00:23:05,100 Right. 261 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:19,420 And so, um, the secret sauce of Tonsu where it solves Kubernetes problems is that it's got all of this kind of collective culture and knowledge going all the way back to, you know, the early pivotal days where we know how to write this kind of software. 262 00:23:19,820 --> 00:23:24,420 That succeeds in an organization and checks all the boxes and everybody wants to use. 263 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,320 So it is an, it is, it's an opinionated set of components, right? 264 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:34,840 So you can, you can still configure the platform how you want, but it is a platform that sits on top of Kubernetes. 265 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,300 So the Kubernetes is the platform for building the platform. 266 00:23:38,860 --> 00:23:48,060 Uh, Tonsu is an opinionated, an instance of a platform, an opinionated instance of a platform that sits on Kubernetes, um, and tries to solve all those problems. 267 00:23:48,060 --> 00:23:48,320 Right. 268 00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:54,940 So it's the, the, um, it's what we've all been saying for, you know, probably a decade now. 269 00:23:54,940 --> 00:23:55,180 Right. 270 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,560 Which is that like developers need to be delivering valuable software, not building platforms. 271 00:24:00,820 --> 00:24:01,240 Right. 272 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,700 So that's, that's the problem, essentially the problem that it solves, right. 273 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:10,380 The platform instance that sits on top of the platform for building platforms. 274 00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:10,960 I guess. 275 00:24:11,060 --> 00:24:22,400 So from that perspective, if, um, the, I mean, the other interesting thing is, is how, as technology evolves, uh, everything that we used to manage again, as sort of like a pet, I hate this analogy. 276 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:23,780 I hate the pet cattle analogy. 277 00:24:23,780 --> 00:24:28,060 Cause like, I just, you know, we should care about every, every cow in the herd as well. 278 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,860 You know, it's just, there's, is there another, is there another analogy that could, that could replace that one? 279 00:24:33,580 --> 00:24:34,840 Uh, I don't know. 280 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,840 Maybe, maybe like, uh, bricks versus cakes. 281 00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:40,100 I'll have to think about that. 282 00:24:40,460 --> 00:24:40,560 Wow. 283 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:47,780 I mean, if a, uh, you know, you got a bunch of bricks in your house and if one of them breaks, you just get a new one, you don't, and you don't name the brick. 284 00:24:47,980 --> 00:24:54,380 Whereas like a cake, you're like, if you're a handmade, if you're making a cake by, from scratch, there's a lot of effort put into this. 285 00:24:54,380 --> 00:25:02,600 And like, you know, if, if you only, if you, if you had one slice out of 10 left in the cake that you made by scratch, you'd probably be like, I'm not going to throw that away. 286 00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:03,760 That's my cake. 287 00:25:03,980 --> 00:25:06,760 It's hard to, it's hard to, you can't just replace this. 288 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:07,000 Yeah. 289 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:07,380 Okay. 290 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,000 So, uh, bricks and cakes. 291 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:13,820 So, so our, our, we're cakes and we've turned them into bricks with containers and so on. 292 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,960 Um, uh, where was I going with this? 293 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,660 So, uh, so, so, so our Kubernetes has been our latest, our latest cake. 294 00:25:21,860 --> 00:25:23,880 We take care of each Kubernetes cluster. 295 00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:33,360 Do you think, are we, does, does Tonsu, uh, and, uh, allow us to start to think about and treat Kubernetes clusters more like bricks? 296 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:34,940 Uh, or, or, or cattle. 297 00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:38,140 Uh, I think, I think my substitution doesn't work. 298 00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:39,040 We should move on. 299 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:40,380 Are we there? 300 00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:52,780 Are we, because we, we, we're managing, are we, are we there where we can manage fleets of Kubernetes and we can, are, you know, the way we think about a Kubernetes cluster becomes something itself more ephemeral, replaceable. 301 00:25:53,060 --> 00:25:55,340 Um, you know, we're not managing the cluster itself. 302 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:56,640 I'll take that drop. 303 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:08,360 So, uh, you know, when I was developing my demos and talks to my customer, when I was back there in Tanzu, I was giving one analogy to them that we had containers. 304 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:09,240 We had Docker. 305 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:14,880 When they scaled, when they became thousands of them, we needed something to manage those containers. 306 00:26:15,420 --> 00:26:20,700 And that's where we help platforms like Kubernetes, who is orchestrating these containers for us. 307 00:26:21,060 --> 00:26:27,960 Now, big organizations grew and they keep deploying Kubernetes and clusters. 308 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:33,260 Now it's, we are again in the same phase where you need something to manage Kubernetes clusters. 309 00:26:33,460 --> 00:26:40,540 And that's where we have time because it solves that problem of scale, not for containers, but for your Kubernetes clusters. 310 00:26:40,740 --> 00:26:44,060 And that, that's where your Kubernetes clusters become your bricks. 311 00:26:44,260 --> 00:26:54,160 No matter whether you build your building in one cloud platform or other cloud platform or your on-premises data center, it's, your cluster will be brick. 312 00:26:54,160 --> 00:27:03,040 And you can create as many number of bricks, put them wherever you want, build whatever type of buildings that you want using platform like Tanzu. 313 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:03,760 I love that. 314 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,800 So I want to, I just want to, I can't shut up this morning. 315 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,280 I want to add just one more anecdote to that, right? 316 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:16,320 So yeah, there, there are organizations out there that have rooms full of brickmakers as it were, right? 317 00:27:16,420 --> 00:27:24,140 They're very highly paid brickmakers, whereas, you know, they could just call up the brickyard and just get a truckload delivered. 318 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,120 Right now, right? 319 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:32,900 And so the anecdote, and I don't, I hope I'm not casting aspersions at anybody, but there was a, we were at KubeCon, I don't know, two, three, four years. 320 00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:38,620 And there was a financial institution that wanted to get into the Kubernetes distribution space. 321 00:27:38,620 --> 00:27:41,720 And so I'm not, I don't, I'm not, I'm not throwing shade at anybody. 322 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,160 It was just an observation I had. 323 00:27:43,260 --> 00:27:47,660 It was a financial institution there in the, the business of moving dollars around. 324 00:27:47,660 --> 00:28:00,400 And they were paying a, you know, presumably a highly paid good sized team of engineers to come up with, uh, you know, Kubernetes distribution to kind of compete, compete in the Kubernetes distro horse race. 325 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:08,700 And, uh, um, you know, the observation, we hope that a reader of this book would come to is that Kubernetes is a commodity, right? 326 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:09,500 It's like bricks. 327 00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:10,220 It's not a cake. 328 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,000 Sorry, Coté, that's living forever. 329 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:12,920 All right. 330 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:13,820 Well, that's fine. 331 00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:19,220 You know, I'm, I just, I just, in, in case it's terrible, I don't want to be associated with, but it looks like it's turning out well. 332 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,480 So, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll go for it. 333 00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:30,680 Wait, you know, to, to attempt to jam two questions into one question here, uh, you know, going off what you were saying, you just added a writer to the first thing. 334 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:40,880 Like, so like what we, we, we, we keep saying platform, but like, what is a platform as far as in the practical world, right? 335 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,240 Like never, nevermind what we think a platform would be. 336 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:51,360 And, and I ask it this way because like, I, you know, I, I read a lot of tech news stuff and there's a lot of different people talking about platforms. 337 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,020 And I always think like, I don't know if you were like, actually have encountered them. 338 00:28:55,140 --> 00:28:57,080 It's just like this theoretical thing. 339 00:28:57,620 --> 00:29:04,220 And so one, like, I'm curious, like what y'all think of as a platform, as far as what you're seeing people do. 340 00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:13,600 And then, and then the, the kind of, uh, you know, part of that question is like, is Kubernetes part of a platform or is it the thing underneath a platform? 341 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:14,460 It's the latter. 342 00:29:14,740 --> 00:29:20,480 And you, you've actually brought up, uh, um, like an interesting distinction, right? 343 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,260 Like even in the context of software, there, there are many different things that are platforms. 344 00:29:25,260 --> 00:29:31,820 So, uh, Tonsu in particular is enterprise production software platform, right? 345 00:29:31,820 --> 00:29:44,340 So I, um, I write a piece of software that takes a customer's information and generates a set of recommendations for what they might want to purchase. 346 00:29:44,340 --> 00:29:44,640 Right. 347 00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:48,340 So I've got this software, it's got an input and an output. 348 00:29:48,340 --> 00:30:04,240 So what a lot of people newer to software don't realize is when you're doing, uh, software in the real world, uh, you know, doing it as a profession, doing it at scale, doing it in a secure, responsible way. 349 00:30:04,340 --> 00:30:15,400 There are, um, uh, dozens and dozens of steps between that software leaving your desk, um, to, uh, to actually running in production. 350 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:15,840 Right. 351 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:28,460 So a big telecom we worked with, uh, before we came in, they, they, um, they actually went and tracked it down and it was, uh, seven months and 72 steps for a piece of software to get into production. 352 00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:41,820 Um, and so, uh, tons, it was a platform in the sense that it is the means by which your software goes from the developer's desktop to delivering value in production. 353 00:30:41,980 --> 00:30:49,740 Um, and there are not, uh, uh, salaried human beings manually executing those 72 steps over the course of seven months. 354 00:30:49,740 --> 00:30:50,000 Right. 355 00:30:50,020 --> 00:31:05,500 So it is the set of building blocks that goes from A to B to C to Z to running in production, um, that, um, you know, takes humans and human effort out of the, um, out of the, uh, out of the, out of the picture. 356 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:05,960 Right. 357 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:16,620 So, um, I'm glad you brought up that distinction because sometimes when you think about a supply chain going beginning to end, you don't think of that as being a platform, but I think that's essentially what it is. 358 00:31:16,620 --> 00:31:20,260 It's all the tools that enable those various steps to get to production. 359 00:31:20,660 --> 00:31:20,760 Yeah. 360 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:33,480 That's I've, I've, I, every now and then I've started to think of as well after, you know, reading your book, what you just said, like popped into my head that like, maybe the, the primary thing is the supply chain. 361 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:33,740 Right. 362 00:31:33,740 --> 00:31:42,800 Like, and, and everything else is like, to, to say things are under it or over it is, is like too much of a, a, a layered approach to think of it, but it's like contributors. 363 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,840 They're, they're, they're, they're components in that supply chain. 364 00:31:45,980 --> 00:31:46,280 Right. 365 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,840 And, and so, so what, kind of, kind of what, what emerges from your book is that like, there's this supply chain. 366 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:57,400 It's all the steps it takes from like, what are we used to say conception to code to running. 367 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,500 There's no C for running. 368 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:12,720 Uh, and, and so like all the activities, any, any sort of way that you automate or wrap things around that, or kind of like second or third things removed that need to happen to have that supply chain running. 369 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,800 A lot of that is just like, that's your platform. 370 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:21,860 It's almost like, I don't know why we don't like to use the word factory, but like factory is another good word for it. 371 00:32:21,860 --> 00:32:22,020 Right. 372 00:32:22,020 --> 00:32:32,060 Like, if you think that you're producing software, you need a factory that, that produces the software, which is why all of a sudden you care about like, you know, cooling circular saws. 373 00:32:32,060 --> 00:32:35,020 When what you're making is like Barbie dolls or something. 374 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:43,880 There was, there's one quote in the book where you say, I bet this is really more, um, this is in the chapter about in particular Tonsu application platform. 375 00:32:44,260 --> 00:32:47,380 Uh, but you mentioned that, which is, you know, one, one component, right. 376 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:48,980 Um, of the Tonsu suite. 377 00:32:48,980 --> 00:32:58,860 But you say that if you think that, if you think of Tonsu application platform GUI, the UI as the eyes and ears of the platform, then the supply chain choreographer would be the beating heart. 378 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,820 Yeah, that that's, that's exactly true. 379 00:33:02,100 --> 00:33:07,860 I'm glad you said it because I would probably would have reused those words because that's sort of my go to analogy. 380 00:33:07,980 --> 00:33:11,180 But yeah, I mean, that being said, we talked about things in the, the abstract, right. 381 00:33:11,180 --> 00:33:14,980 We should maybe talk about some of the things in that actually compose that factory. 382 00:33:14,980 --> 00:33:15,380 Right. 383 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:16,160 And it's true. 384 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,320 Um, TAP, Tonsu application platform is that beating heart, right? 385 00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:25,700 Like it's that it is assembly line going from one end of the factory to the other. 386 00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:28,840 That's taken the code and delivering software into production. 387 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:29,140 Right. 388 00:33:29,140 --> 00:33:31,260 And you can think of the other pieces, right? 389 00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:37,360 So when it's running in production, maybe it needs to run on five different Kubernetes clusters across different cloud providers. 390 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:37,620 Right. 391 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,040 Then you've got something like Tonsu service mesh. 392 00:33:40,340 --> 00:33:40,820 Right. 393 00:33:40,820 --> 00:33:48,860 And then you need like a single place to look at all of your, your metrics across five clusters and all your different pieces of software. 394 00:33:48,860 --> 00:33:49,260 Right. 395 00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:52,920 And that is ARIA because that is just ARIA now. 396 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:53,160 Sorry. 397 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,420 They didn't rename it recently. 398 00:33:54,420 --> 00:33:56,000 Sorry to make sure I got the name right. 399 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:02,640 And, um, you know, then you've got all of the, you know, the developer facing tools, the IDE plugins and the API game. 400 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:03,360 Right. 401 00:34:03,420 --> 00:34:06,300 And then all the stuff that kind of gets you through the various phase of phases. 402 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:06,640 Yeah. 403 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:16,860 So, uh, yes, tap is the beating heart, but all of these other things are like stations in the factory that your product will pass through at some point of its life cycle. 404 00:34:16,860 --> 00:34:28,280 So, yeah, because it's, which is interesting because like when you think about the problems that Kubernetes has, uh, forces to deal with these problems of scale, uh, on the one hand, of course you do need, you need that beating heart, right? 405 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,300 You need that thing that's going to move your apps into production securely. 406 00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:34,160 And, and, you know, and that, that's a conversation in and of itself. 407 00:34:34,540 --> 00:34:45,500 Once your apps are, are there, uh, of course you need all these sort of, uh, at scale eyes and ears on that end to, to make sure everything's working in the way that you expect. 408 00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:57,120 But then there's on the other end, on the, on the developer end, you also need some sort of eyes and ears and portal to make this massive platform usable at a, at a developer or at a team experience. 409 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,600 And it's interesting because like the, the, the problem is actually much broader, right. 410 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,740 Then, then the problem of, of managing containers or, or clusters at scale. 411 00:35:05,740 --> 00:35:08,400 And it sort of like on this question of like, what is a platform? 412 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,880 I think that, I think actually the, what is a platform is a moving target, right? 413 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:18,760 It's the same thing as, as we solve one problem, we encounter another, we redefine what that platform is. 414 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:27,660 And so I guess if you, if you include this, maybe focusing a little bit on the, on the developer side, the Tanzu application platform, GUI as the eyes and ears of the platform. 415 00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:31,580 How would you define, like, what, how do we think about a platform today? 416 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,380 What are we trying to attain and how, and how is Tanzu answering that question for developers? 417 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,220 I'll take a quick step of that, Kora. 418 00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:48,120 With one thing that I would like to say to the listener who are not very familiar, what Tanzu is, if you are getting that idea that it's just a pipeline tool. 419 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:53,760 It's not the pipeline and the choreography is just one very small piece of the entire platform. 420 00:35:53,760 --> 00:36:00,940 It's just one assembly mechanism, what Rob has said, which is your application from your desk to the production thing. 421 00:36:01,220 --> 00:36:03,180 But think about how you build your product. 422 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,240 Think about how you package them. 423 00:36:05,940 --> 00:36:12,240 Think about after deploying into production, how you link that application with other application. 424 00:36:12,740 --> 00:36:29,700 Think about how you will get on top of your entire ecosystem of your products, talking to each other and see if they misbehave, putting the guardrails for your products or applications that you deploy to make sure that they play within the established boundary. 425 00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:40,740 All these controls and operation mechanisms for your end-to-end of your application from an idea to a running software, that's the whole idea of Tanzu platform. 426 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:49,480 And tap is one piece into it, which helps you move your build application from your desk to production. 427 00:36:49,860 --> 00:36:49,960 Yep. 428 00:36:50,220 --> 00:36:51,460 So I like what Parth said. 429 00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:53,600 It's not just the assembly line, right? 430 00:36:53,660 --> 00:36:58,540 Like if you look at a factory, I was saying, first off, I love how we're describing everything through metaphor, right? 431 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,200 So I'll keep going. 432 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:06,420 You know, this is maybe not a Barbie doll factory, but maybe it's more like a Steinway factory, right? 433 00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:12,820 Like you have that assembly line, but not every Steinway piano is the same, like the one in Parth's living room there, right? 434 00:37:12,820 --> 00:37:13,680 That's a Steinway. 435 00:37:13,820 --> 00:37:16,520 But then there's like, you know, every shape and size. 436 00:37:16,580 --> 00:37:18,540 You kind of think of that as software, right? 437 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,480 And so it is an assembly line, but, you know, it's not just stamping out carbon copies. 438 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,260 That's where we add value as developers. 439 00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:28,260 But there's a lot more than that core assembly line, right? 440 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,500 There are stations where people are doing quality control. 441 00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:38,020 There are stations where people are doing, you know, creating the components that feed into that assembly line, right? 442 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:40,440 So, you know, tap maybe is the beating heart. 443 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,740 Maybe the aorta or the left ventricle is something like build service, right? 444 00:37:45,740 --> 00:37:57,820 Like turning your compiled software artifact or your source code into a container image that can run safely in production is surprisingly difficult, right? 445 00:37:57,940 --> 00:38:08,540 Like you, it is very easy for people to poke holes in your container images and to do something that passes muster and checks all the boxes is really hard to do. 446 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,780 So like one component in tap is build service, right? 447 00:38:11,860 --> 00:38:13,840 Based on KPAC, right? 448 00:38:13,940 --> 00:38:17,240 That, those kinds of decisions, right? 449 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:24,500 Like, so now you have a team with five, 10, 100, 1,000 developers that don't have to think about turning software into a container image, right? 450 00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:30,140 So that's one component in the assembly line that's part of a wider factory, right? 451 00:38:30,140 --> 00:38:31,280 With all these other components. 452 00:38:31,460 --> 00:38:34,220 So yeah, that's a great distinction Parth makes, right? 453 00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:35,140 It's the whole factory. 454 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,980 It's not just the, like the central assembly line. 455 00:38:38,220 --> 00:38:43,760 And also, like if being a listener, if you would be thinking that, hey, anybody can build this kind of a pipeline. 456 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,060 Yes, you can. 457 00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:47,260 And anybody can build this kind of a platform also. 458 00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:49,680 The question here is, should you do that? 459 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,140 I mean, which business are you in? 460 00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:53,600 Whether are you in the business of building this platform? 461 00:38:53,760 --> 00:39:00,720 Or whether you are in the business of lending money or providing telephone lines or groceries or what, right? 462 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:18,900 So you have to pick your core business and let this kind of complex engineering away so that you can fully utilize that and devote that time that you have to add more anxiety to your own applications that will bring more better user experience for your end user. 463 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,040 And that's sort of the build versus buy conversation, right? 464 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,400 It's like when does the economic shift? 465 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,420 So you're saying we've shifted. 466 00:39:29,780 --> 00:39:38,060 We're not in the economic stage anymore where maybe it's economically advantageous to use your own resources to build your platform. 467 00:39:38,900 --> 00:39:45,100 As an industry, we've moved past that tilt point, I guess is what you're saying. 468 00:39:45,140 --> 00:39:45,460 Is that right? 469 00:39:45,780 --> 00:39:46,540 Yes, that's right. 470 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:53,900 In history, people were a bit tempted to buy this kind of products because they were proprietary. 471 00:39:54,520 --> 00:40:01,860 They were like, once you buy that, like heavy, hefty licensees and all that were involved into running those kind of platforms. 472 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,840 But what if these platforms are built with all open source tools and technologies underneath? 473 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:14,180 I mean, then the worry of getting logged into a proprietary technology would be a bit reduced. 474 00:40:14,180 --> 00:40:20,640 I would not say it will completely get eliminated because vendor locking cannot be avoided in no matter what you do. 475 00:40:21,060 --> 00:40:23,540 It can only be reduced to a certain extent. 476 00:40:23,620 --> 00:40:29,120 And it can be reduced only when you use a tool and a platform that is built with all open source technology. 477 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:38,820 Well, so there's, you know, we have talked broadly here, but that leaves the book as the fun place to go to find all the exact details and the components. 478 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:50,060 And there are like, well, y'all probably have it memorized, but there's like, I don't know, six or seven different components or like parts kind of running around that you would go into. 479 00:40:50,400 --> 00:41:07,240 But as kind of like the last, like the last question, at least that I have to go to go deeper than than kind of the broad stuff we've been at, like, you know, reading through your y'all's book, I had the same idea that I have all the time. 480 00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:17,700 I read about like builds that involve containers and developers, and it seems like it's a really bad idea to let developers build containers that you then deploy to production. 481 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:28,240 Like, it seems like a lot of the work that is done in Tanzu, but then everyone does, is all about like, hey, let's not do that, right? 482 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:29,800 Like, don't let that happen. 483 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,740 But my perception is that's the way everyone does stuff. 484 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:41,160 So, like, I don't know, I guess, like, is that a good idea to let developers be building the containers that get deployed to production? 485 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:42,520 Or is it a bad idea? 486 00:41:42,780 --> 00:41:45,780 That's a great microcosm for the whole broad problem set, right? 487 00:41:45,820 --> 00:41:47,060 Let's talk about that one thing. 488 00:41:47,060 --> 00:41:54,760 So, there are two, I guess, kind of very common developer character flaws that actually play into this thing, right? 489 00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:03,240 So, we have the desire to be extremely clever and impress your friends, and then you have laziness, right? 490 00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:19,540 And so, step A is you employ unbelievable cleverness and abstraction on top of abstraction and reusability and come up with this amazing path to creating a container out of your code, right? 491 00:42:19,580 --> 00:42:24,000 And then you deliver that and you start using it, then you forget how it works. 492 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:36,620 And everybody who interacts with it subsequently manifests the other character trait of laziness and doesn't go back in to see how this super clever way of building containers, you know, actually works. 493 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,540 And the net result is you get stuff running in production that you don't intend to be there, right? 494 00:42:41,540 --> 00:42:51,580 And so, build service is creating containers, you know, designed and built by the adults in the room, right? 495 00:42:51,660 --> 00:42:57,840 Like, people not trying to be too clever and people who are lazy and they're going to make sure that the right thing comes out the other end. 496 00:42:58,100 --> 00:43:10,700 Yeah, lazy or just using time wisely, because you can have a very hardworking person reinventing a wheel only to find out that, you know, they have to reinvent, they have to resolve all the problems that are already solved. 497 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:12,340 By developers, I mean me. 498 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,260 I don't mean in general. 499 00:43:15,740 --> 00:43:23,880 Developers are generally, just to add one thought on top of what Rob said is, that developers are generally like, they are responsible people, right? 500 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:49,640 They don't do things lazily or I would say dropping the ball in terms of security and all, but unintentionally, there should be a mechanism, there should be a process in the organization to make sure that whatever they are building for their containers, putting inside their containers in terms of dependencies, the runtime version, the operating system and all, that is all in line with the organizational acceptance thing. 501 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:56,140 And putting that guardrail and the process to review all those things is a very challenging task. 502 00:43:56,420 --> 00:44:05,500 Rather than that, what if we can have a mechanism where intentionally also somebody cannot put anything which is not approved inside the container? 503 00:44:05,780 --> 00:44:14,840 And that's where this concept of build service comes into picture, where it creates a framework where developers would not have to think about what will go inside my container image. 504 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:20,740 So, the engine will itself identify what will your application need to run inside a container. 505 00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:32,480 And all that will go inside the container will come from all the approved libraries which your organization has checked and found usable in product dimensions. 506 00:44:32,740 --> 00:44:37,240 I want to make sure that anybody listening, if they're wondering, I guess, should I read this book? 507 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:42,140 I figure maybe we'll give them a little bit of what they can expect to get out of it, right? 508 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,900 So, I just have sort of the table of contents in front of me. 509 00:44:44,900 --> 00:45:01,660 So, I'll lay out that the book is talking about Tanzu, the suite, a whole set of products that VMware provides that are inspired by this problem of solving the problems that Kubernetes has sort of unveiled for us. 510 00:45:01,660 --> 00:45:11,020 Of managing containers at scale, but then also managing clusters at scale, and then managing developers at scale in a way. 511 00:45:11,020 --> 00:45:23,900 So, enabling developers to be productive when the system behind them is running at this scale, but also there's such a high bar for security and for efficiency and all that stuff, right? 512 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,820 So, Tanzu is sort of like an answer to that. 513 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:35,400 It's not only the platform that sits on top of Kubernetes, but it sort of expands its reach into all of that single pane of glass that you need in order to really manage it properly. 514 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:44,740 And also the developer portal that you need so that developers can have a good experience in collaborating with other teams and managing their APIs and all of that stuff, right? 515 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,940 It sort of reaches both ends of that gamut. 516 00:45:47,320 --> 00:46:00,940 And so, if you're looking to read this book, two things I think that you get out of it are, one, obviously an understanding of how Tanzu in particular is going to solve these problems, but also just a really great, as you were saying, Rob, at the beginning, right? 517 00:46:00,980 --> 00:46:05,660 Like you're talking to 2015 Rob, what are these problems? 518 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:06,880 Like, how do you think about this? 519 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:20,660 And it is for security people and it is for developers and it is for, you know, architects and, I don't know, other roles, many different roles because it lays out the problems from end to end because it is this end to end solution. 520 00:46:20,820 --> 00:46:22,680 So, it really has a wide breadth. 521 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:38,240 And so, while you will learn about how Tanzu and VMware solve these problems, you will also get a very clear, very insightful, and I have to say very fun, for me, I really enjoyed reading it, a fun explanation of what these problems are, why they matter. 522 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:43,020 You'll maybe recognize them in your own life and be able to see how they can be solved. 523 00:46:43,020 --> 00:46:57,020 And you learn about a lot of open source software because, as you said, Parth, right, like there's a lot of open source software at the heart of these components, and it is an opinionated delivery, an integrated sort of integration of these. 524 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:03,900 So, you'll also learn through those opinions, there is sort of like the view into what VMware considers to be the best practice to solving. 525 00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:09,760 So, even if you don't use Tanzu, you've come to understand what VMware thinks are best practices for solving these problems. 526 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,720 And so, I got a lot out of this book. 527 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:23,160 Yeah, just because the breadth is amazing, and the way that you explain the problem set before you get to the solution is engaging and so clear. 528 00:47:24,380 --> 00:47:28,840 And so, yeah, just to make sure that people understand what they can get out of it. 529 00:47:29,260 --> 00:47:29,620 And I... 530 00:47:29,620 --> 00:47:30,400 One thing just... 531 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:30,760 Congratulations. 532 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:31,780 Yeah, Parth. 533 00:47:32,540 --> 00:47:33,620 Yeah, yeah, thank you. 534 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:34,480 So, I just jumped in. 535 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:39,200 One thing that I would like to say to our audience is that this book is not for you. 536 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:45,560 If you think that this book will give you a production-grade deployment of the platform, it's not for you then. 537 00:47:45,560 --> 00:48:00,060 It gives you an idea of what Tanzu platform contains and gives you a way to have your hands dirty just to play around and experience the technology and do some high-level stuff like day one, day two activities with different tools. 538 00:48:00,140 --> 00:48:06,420 If you think that this book is a good thing, it's not for you. 539 00:48:06,420 --> 00:48:08,380 It's not for you to help you become production-ready. 540 00:48:08,420 --> 00:48:18,420 And for that, we have VMware documentation, which is your go-to place, and it is quite in-depth to give you the best practices in terms of how you should run them in production. 541 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,040 So, I just wanted to call it out for the audience to set the invitation here. 542 00:48:22,100 --> 00:48:24,360 If your production system falls, you can't call Parth. 543 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:25,480 You've got to still call VMware. 544 00:48:25,700 --> 00:48:26,140 That's right. 545 00:48:26,340 --> 00:48:28,920 Well, I appreciate you two being on. 546 00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:29,620 That's great. 547 00:48:29,860 --> 00:48:35,800 And the name of the book, again, is DevSecOps in Practice with VMware Tanzu by you two. 548 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:43,060 I think, oh, look, there's even a three-dimensional version of it, which is always fun to have. 549 00:48:43,140 --> 00:48:45,320 Well, yeah, I mean, I agree with Cora. 550 00:48:45,460 --> 00:48:47,020 It was good to read over it. 551 00:48:47,140 --> 00:48:50,920 It'll make you interested and exciting about the portfolio. 552 00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:52,320 So, thanks. 553 00:48:52,500 --> 00:48:53,780 I appreciate you two being on. 554 00:48:54,060 --> 00:48:54,560 You got it. 555 00:48:54,580 --> 00:48:55,100 Enjoyed it. 556 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:55,620 Thank you so much. 557 00:48:55,780 --> 00:48:56,540 Thank you. 558 00:48:56,660 --> 00:48:58,100 We really enjoyed this conversation.