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So I was down in Ghent, as us English-speaking people would say, yesterday for a configuration

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management camp. I think this is the third time that I've been there. It's always a fun,

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it's enjoyable. It's right after FOSDEM. And so there's a lot of people who go there from FOSDEM.

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And it is, true to its name, it's somewhat of a niche topic, but in our world, it's a huge thing.

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It is about configuration and release management, essentially. And then the, you know, the kind of

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things around that. So of course, there's lots of Kubernetes talk and stuff like that. But the,

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yesterday, the keynote was from Adam Jacob, you know, of Chef fame. And he was finally giving a

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public view into like what his new company is called a system initiative or something.

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And basically, I'll have to dig into this more. So this is just from seeing his talk. So who knows

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if it's accurate. But of course, you know, as people who get interested and obsessed with a

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certain area, it's another configuration management, release management thing. And he went through the

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problems with infrastructure as code. One of the things that he, he and his buddies in that area

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pioneered, of course, and not buddies, there was quite a lot of animosity. I don't know if you

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remember between the puppet and chef people that was in retrospect, you know, what are you going to do?

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But essentially, his, I think the main thing, the way that I as a, as an application developer, a Java

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developer who stopped coding in 2005, he was like, what if configuration management, but object oriented,

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right? And, and what that means is he would call them models. But he was basically like, and there's,

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there's a, there's a fun twist to this at the end. But what if we had models, which I would call objects,

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and the model was like, you know, your web server. And the thing with that is there's a, there's an API

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or whatever, and you tell the web server to configure itself and install itself and set it up. And it's

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in charge of doing that. Instead of the way that we all, we do this now is you tell it the exact

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settings to do. This is kind of like a Cloud Foundry way of thinking about stuff, right? In, in the same

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way that you would go to Cloud Foundry and be like, I don't know, run this application. I got to go eat

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something, right? And, and like Cloud Foundry, because it has strong opinions runs it in the way

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that it runs it in the same way you would have a database or a load balancer or presumably some

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router. And it has a model or an object and it's in charge of figuring out how to configure and do

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itself. And then the fun part or the fun part is that part of what, what they're thinking of is then

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you would, you would just basically, you can do bi-directional syncing of this model of this

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object back to staging and development. So like in staging and development, you build up this model

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that you want a simulation, if you will. And then essentially what you say, it's kind of like a

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reconciliation thing in Kubernetes. You say like now make production look like this model, right? And it

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kind of just synchronizes up that way. But the, the, the, the fun follow on from that is like,

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and then what you could also do is like, you could actually have a better single source of truth,

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which as he pointed out is always a lie. So it could be less of a lie that you, you have a good

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idea of what's in production because production, these models will sync back to your, your, your

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development and staging thing. Or as we would say, you remember this phrase from the internet of

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things era, digital twins. You would basically have digital twins that are bi-directionally syncing,

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which like, I'm a twin. Yeah. And I'm in digital ish. Therefore I am a digital twin.

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So is that, is that a viable model? Is it resilient for enterprises? Can you just swap those twins

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out? Does, does it work? No, sadly, we're not identical. I wish we were. Cause you know,

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I could, you know, fudge all my exams, get him, he's, he's in IT as well. So he could take half

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them. I could take the other half. We combine our CVs. It'd be great, but no, yeah, sadly not.

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Whenever you wants to take some time off, you can just send the other one and be like, uh,

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yes. Uh, last week I sent that out. Yeah. I'd suddenly have a whole new skillset I could

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call on. I'd be far more interesting on these podcasts if every week I came on with a different

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set of knowledge and you never knew whether it was me or my brother. That would be fun. That'd be a

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fun game we could play at the end. Which, which, which one is it? Ed one or Ed two?

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But sadly, we're not identical. So it'd be very obvious. I'm sure he's quicker and he's smarter

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than me. Anyway, I have to say on that conference thing, I don't get that. I'm sure it's just the

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way they'd explain or something, but you know, the whole, so I, I'm like, so if it's just sort

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of almost object oriented, isn't that really what Plumi is trying to do right in a code of your

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choice or, you know, language of your choice, make it more structured and everything and the whole

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thinking things, well, again, shouldn't that be what infrastructure's code lets us do anyway?

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It feels like one of those, I'm sure there is something clever in there and somebody explain

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it in more length and go in this scenario, this would work. Oh, totally. But on the surface,

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I'm like, I, I feel like we should do that with what we've got. Right, right, right. And, and,

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and, you know, to that point, like, I think, uh, also, I mean, I mean, it all seemed cool to me,

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right? Like that, that seemed like a great approach. And then I'll kind of, to your point,

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it all comes down to the actual implementation, right? Like, like as, and, and then also, I don't

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know what they call this nowadays, but like, so the word drivers is what I would use for the following.

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It's like, whether you're using like puppet or chef or like Kubernetes or whatever, I vaguely know what

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Pulumi is or the system initiative thing, eventually there's some code that like connects to a Cisco router

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and configures it. Right. And, and you're kind of like that never gets better, right? Like, like that

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only gets better. And, and, and Adam started off by looking at how you, uh, configure send mail,

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right? And there's two ways that used to configure send mail. And one of them looks horrendous. And the

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other one is less horrendous, right? It's just some nonsense from the Unix era. Right. And it's like,

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you know, if you were to manually type this stuff in, it's, it's almost as bad as like the command

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line for like running the JVM. It's just like, I don't know what's going on here. Right. Capital X,

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just give up. Uh, and like, so like all, all, all of, yeah, all, all of this, this fancy configuration

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stuff as Adam also covered is just sort of like, you know, a nice UI and model on top of like some

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horrendous stuff underneath. So, but my point being that like, well, maybe it's better to hide the end

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user. This is a lot of what Kubernetes wants to do. Like, there's no reason for everyone to have to

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know this horrendous configuration. We should just let the experts do it, let alone going to the

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drivers thing, the actual manufacturers of the hardware and the software. Right. So the, uh,

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the Cisco people should make the drivers for how to configure stuff, which might conflict with their

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desire to sell you stuff, to do it easily for you, which is whatever that's, that's, that's on the

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business side. But I think, I think this stuff always comes down to like, uh, it has to be a good

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idea, which is why you spend the most time going over the idea. And then over multiple years, you

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have to build up a community or an ecosystem to un-open source it of people who have all these

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drivers and, and it just works, which is cool. They should do that. It'd be great. It, it'd be, uh,

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be fun. And, and then also, uh, this is, this is, uh, what always I think happens to me at

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configuration management camp. Uh, it's, it's at a, it's like at a, uh, a university and they have

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like a university cafeteria with university quality food, which is great. Uh, and, uh, so I was

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sitting there and I ran into our old friend, Colin Humphries, who used to work here and at cloud

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credo. And then we spent like, uh, me, me and his homies spent like three hours talking instead of

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attending the conference. So that it was, it was fun to talk with him. He's best to do things.

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Yeah. He's a delightful person. Well, yeah. And I, your lecture on here and there are uni or

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something cause you're just chatting and actually it's more useful than the lectures. Yeah. Yeah.

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It was nice to catch up on stuff and, and, uh, understand what his company is up to. I actually

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need to see what his, uh, what his, his new startup, I need to see a demo of it before I fully connect

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the dots. Cause it made sense, but I need to see what, uh, what's, what's the proof in the pudding

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as, as they say. And, uh, what I, what I found out is that, uh, fun fact about Colin,

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I think he is a, a diehard, uh, uh, Cartesian. I think he kind of laid that out there at the end

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and he's really into Descartes and the Cartesian system of existence. But then we were told that

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they were closing the cafeteria and we had to leave. And as someone joked, as we were walking out the

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door, oh, the staff heard, uh, someone talking about Descartes and they were like, all right,

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it's over. You got to leave now. And Hey, I remember very recently, Colin was on the hunt

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for podcasts to listen to. Did you manage to secure his listenership so he can move up to?

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No, no. However, I did talk to several other people who, uh, I, I talked about all the various,

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the podcasts, the, the Coté podcast universe too. So maybe we'll have some, some new listeners that

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would be good. I'll have, I'll have to tell him that because I wanted to follow up on, uh, you know,

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the opposite of, of Descartes in, uh, in that era of philosophy is this guy, Barkley, who, uh, he had

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an extensive proof that we are all just an idea in, uh, the Western God's mind. Uh, there's actually,

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it's very, it's hard to know if there's actual physical reality, but we can know that we are, uh,

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a free willed independently operating at least idea. So he, he was like right there going towards like,

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uh, Buddhism and Hinduism. And then he's like, Nope, I'm going to take the left turn, just sort of

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veered off there back, back to Europe. Uh, but I'll have to send some Barkley to him. See what he,

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see what he makes of that. That'll be fun. Well, speaking of, see what you make of that. The, uh,

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the CNCF, uh, they released, uh, their most recent survey about the Kubernetes world. And it's always fun.

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You know, we do a yearly survey. I, I was looking over the questions for our 2023 state of Kubernetes

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survey, which we'll probably publish. I'm guessing if it's like last year, sometime in December. I don't

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know. It depends on what we do, but, uh, that's always fun to look at, but the, uh, the CNCF survey,

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it had some interesting findings in it. Now, I, I think I, it's fair to say that the three of us,

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we didn't go to GitHub and download the raw data to do extensive analysis of it.

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We should load that up into chat GP, GPT maybe, and ask it to do it. But in just reading a survey,

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oh, well, I actually signed up for the plus thing and I would love to pay for it just to get new

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features. I'll send you my requests. That's right. But, uh, yeah, there's a few interesting things in

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there. Uh, I'll, I'll, I'll start with one, uh, which, which I think is, is, is, uh, is, I don't

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know. The thing that I care the most about is basically my whole, my whole theory of how you

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improve during doing software, you know, with the big, the big double dagger footnote of like, you know,

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this applies 90% of the time and there's exceptions, blah, blah, blah. Uh, like, is that basically the

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way you improve software is to, uh, give developers to make their releases, uh, base is weekly. Maybe

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daily is fine, but like, that seems a little too much, but if you could do weekly releases, what that

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means as a software developer is that you can, uh, basically, uh, put a feedback loop in place to learn

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if the features, the changes you're making to the software are making things better or worse.

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And then every week you can course correct as opposed to every month, every three months,

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every six months, every 12 months or whatever. Right. And that's the way that you can rapidly,

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uh, improve your software and then even find out what problems you're solving and verify that, uh,

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in the first place. So I'm always interested in how quickly something like a Kubernetes allows people

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to release software. And it looks like to greatly summarize it because the wording for this stuff,

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they do it a little weird in the CNCF survey, but people who use, who have more, uh, applications

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in production on Kubernetes, they are, they are able to get even closer to doing daily releases and

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weekly releases. And in fact, uh, this is the weird wording that they use instead of just a direct

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percentage. They use these categories of, uh, if nearly all of your applications run on Kubernetes

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in production, you see basically like an almost 10% rise in the number of people who can release

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multiple times a day, which is like releasing multiple times a day is a little nutty. Uh, but

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whatever. Uh, but you know, it means that you can release more frequently now, maybe in the detailed

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stuff, hopefully they did define what nearly all means and maybe in the details, there's more precision

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there, but that's a, that's a positive finding that, uh, it, it actually helps people out. How

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about the, uh, was there anything interesting in your, your skimming of this summary that the,

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the two of you liked, how about, how about you, Ben? Ben:

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Yeah, I did. I saw something around challenges. So they'd asked people responding to the survey.

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What are the biggest challenges that you report in, uh, both using and deploying containers and getting the

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most out of that new ecosystem around cloud native. And it seems that the most significant barrier that

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folks were reporting back was the ability to get the right training and have the right skills was number

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one. And number two is security and having confidence that the code that they're releasing, that they're,

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that they're running on the platform is secure and hasn't exposed them to some bad actor in some,

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in some way. So I thought that was very interesting because there are two areas that we have in the

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terms of application platform that I work on that, that we really care about is the idea of enabling

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folks to, uh, be able to, you know, understand what it is they're doing with the platform, uh,

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in the form of, uh, learning centers that you can, that you can write and you can use to, uh, basically

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take hands on labs and, and, and, uh, learn more about the platform that you're using on a daily basis.

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And of course, security, which is something that the, uh, secure software supply chains is really

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important, uh, in allowing you to deliver a more sort of secure footing for all the containers that you run,

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making sure that they've all got an S bomb that you know, when they were last checked and you know

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what dependencies they have and what vulnerabilities are in there. Just knowing

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is part of the answer. You know, it's not just, um, correcting any issues that you have, but just

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knowing that you have issues across what might be hundreds or thousands of containers is a, is a big deal.

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So it was really interesting to see those two things picked out as the clear top challenges that

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folks are reporting back because it echoes with what we hear from customers all the time.

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Yeah. It's always good to validate your, uh, your business, which, which no, and I think, you know,

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we see, we see that in our own surveys, right? Like those are the top two things every year and they

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trade places every now and then, but I think, I think that is, uh, that is consistent. And like, you know,

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you're saying we have a cube academy, cube.academy you can go to, and I think you can even do some

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courses without even registering. And then after that you register, I think they're, they're basically

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all free if I remember, or maybe not basically, maybe specifically, I forget. That's how good of

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an employee I am. And, but well, and to flip that on his head a little bit, is it also, um, a signal

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that actually it's, it's, it's too top. It's too complex. Like, like this, this ecosystem works,

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but it's very complex. Yeah. Yeah. That might be resulting in folks feeling like they can't find

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people who've got the right skillsets. They don't have the right skillsets themselves. They, they struggle to

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keep up maybe with a pace because we all know that the pace is absolutely crazy around the CNCF and all

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the different projects and the maturity levels and the, um, you know, the speed that they iterate. So,

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um, maybe it's also a signal that there's an, you know, there's an underlying, uh, issue around just

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the, the sheer complexity of the whole thing. And, and if you try and, um, you know, if your approach to

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that complexity is to try and master it, maybe that is quite difficult actually. And, and maybe that's

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worth reconsidering whether or not you really need to be a master of all of it or whether you can,

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um, you know, use some extra tools maybe to, uh, to give you some, uh, higher level abstractions.

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Yeah, no, I, I think, I think that's, uh, that's exactly right. Like you're, you're, you're making me think

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that like analogously like Kubernetes is in the era of, uh, when Linux was basically like you had to

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make your own distro as an end user. Like I don't, I, I wasn't a Linux person back then, but I imagine

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there was a point before, before, you know, I don't know, there were like five or six distros in the

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late nineties. And like, you know, you could choose one of those distros or you could assemble your own

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and you'd have to make the choices to integrate it. And like, I bet there were similar surveys where

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they're like, Whoa, these things are confusing, probably sponsored by the incumbent operating system

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vendors. But you know, it was, it was no doubt an equally like a confusing thing at that point until

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it all consolidated. And, uh, as, as our old friend, uh, uh, Kubernetes Joe used to like to say, it became

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boring. Uh, and, and it was, uh, there were, there were skills in there. You're also reminding me, I

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don't know if, if, uh, when y'all were growing up in your neck of the woods, you, you had the GI Joe

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cartoons, but they had these little educational moments every now and then in the motto of the

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educational moment was, uh, knowing is half the battle, which, which I, I think you want knowledge

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is, uh, is power. I don't know what you, what the other half is maybe got maybe guile or something,

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but, uh, knowing the other half is the other half. Yeah. I've heard the phrase and I never knew where

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it came from or whether they've in turn pinched it from somebody else. So one of the things I saw,

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actually, in fact, I say I saw like I prepped, I didn't, I'm looking at it right now. Um, but it's

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an interesting one again in this sermon, but it says, so I haven't seen quite how they define it,

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but the CNCF end users are more advanced in their adoption and use of Kubernetes and are more likely

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to maintain a larger number of clusters essentially, which I find fascinating in that that discussion we

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just had. So we're saying, you know, there is undoubtedly a ton of complexity in there. Um, but a bit of me would

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think, so the, the non end users, I assume are sort of vendors and consultancies and that kind of thing.

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Um, you would like to think that they were leading this charge in lots of ways. And in terms of

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expertise, if they're saying this is really complex, we can help you, they would be the more advanced set.

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But this seems to be implying it's the opposite that the end users, the people on the coalface are

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the guys who know all this better and are using it more in production and so on. And everyone else is

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catching up. Um, which, you know, I'm sure is not the case for us, but it's, it's a fascinating,

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I'm curious how they, what that data is and you know, what that means. I guess it just feels like a

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anti-intuitive to me. I remember covering OpenStack and it felt often like that was sort of vendor led.

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Everyone was out there saying, we've got all this stuff, we've got it working.

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You need us to get it going. So it's complex. And everyone else was sort of going, oh, let's do that.

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But this seems to be the other way around. That's, you know, in the OpenStack world, which,

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which I remember well, it's probably because most of the people involved in that were looking to

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build their own public cloud. They were, they were as, as people like to say, drinking their own

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champagne or eating their own dog food. And so there were practitioners there. Whereas I wonder if you

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looked at all of the vendors in the Kubernetes space, if they're striving to like run their own

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Kubernetes stuff. I don't know that that would be. And then, and then I guess the other way you would

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run that is to say, are there significant contributions from the three major public clouds

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where, where Kubernetes runs? I would assume there is. They're probably nice about open source

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stuff. But it does remind me of another extensive conversation I had about like with, with actually

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one of our coworkers at configuration management camp where like, I was trying to get down to like,

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what's the experience of like installing Kubernetes? Because like a lot of the discussion

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around Kubernetes stuff always assume, assumes Kubernetes has been installed already. Or that like,

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you know, your, your IaaS has been laid down and is easy or, or is up and running. But it seems like,

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you know, you get in this area where like, uh, I need a Kubernetes to install a Kubernetes.

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And then like, you got to install that first one, but it seemed like there were good solutions,

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but it was, uh, it was the old thing that my old friend, Andrew Schaefer used to say, who,

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who, and who installs the cloud? Uh, you know, who installs the installer, uh, as it were,

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which, which is a little tedious to think about. It can be indeed, which, you know, that raises the,

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the last thing that I was going to highlight from it. And that is that, uh, there was an interesting,

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uh, convert conversation in the survey of what they called auxiliary workloads,

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which is sort of exactly what I was getting to is that if you were to separate out Kubernetes usage

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into applications. So the actual software that people are using, that are just running on Kubernetes,

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and then the stuff you run in Kubernetes that helps you build those applications. Like for example,

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if you are running a, an internal developer platform, like backstage, which runs on Kubernetes as,

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as I recall, or you're using like your, your S bomb generation thing, which also runs on Kubernetes.

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Like there's all these things that people run on Kubernetes as, as the, uh, the survey was trying

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to metaphorize as an operating system, you know, counting that up, it looked like 63% of the

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workloads that people run on Kubernetes were the auxiliary ones. These ones that they used to support

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building and governing and, and maybe even managing the actual applications. Whereas 37% of them were

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the actual applications. And, and again, in the summary, they didn't distinguish between production

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versus in staging and development, but whatever, it doesn't matter for this point, but it, it got me,

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one, that's an interesting observation, right? Cause it is like, that's something I've been curious

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about is like, uh, running, running your support stuff in your target deployment environment. Like, I guess,

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I guess you, you would probably remember this been like, if I mean, you run your Java build tools,

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usually in Java, but you don't necessarily run all of your development process in an app server,

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or you could, I guess, but it's just usually like a separate environment. Your runtime environment is

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sometimes separate in, in the Java world or, or it used to be or not. I don't know. There's almost like,

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it's hard to wrap my head around, like the same thing that I deployed a production is the thing

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that I run all my development stack on, but that appears to be the case in the Kubernetes world,

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I guess. Pause for commentary.

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Yeah. Uh, I don't know. It's, I can't, I I've got to be honest. I can't, I don't, not sure I follow

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exactly. Um, the, the, the trainer thought that, but yeah, I did, I, you know, yes, I do remember, um,

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working quite a lot on things like, uh, web sphere and web logic and those sorts of application servers back in the day.

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And yes, everything build wise, you know, was all taken care of far away from production until you had this golden jar

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exactly on for, for months and months and months, you know, and here it is boiled down into the golden jar.

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And then someone in the middle of the night had to tentatively apply that to a production.

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There you go. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

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But it was, it was alone, you know, it was this jar on its own. It didn't contain within it all the tests

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and all the other stuff that had gone on before that golden jar was produced. It was just the binary,

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just the one thing. Totally. No, no, that's exactly it. You, you, uh, you can de-confuse my monologue

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there. You figured it out. The golden jar, we should, we should, yeah. Yes. The golden jar is no longer

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popular. You, you don't want a golden jar in your cupboard anymore. And, and so this got me thinking

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about like, you know, I, uh, I have since retired from doing strategy, business strategy at companies I

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work at, I just talk about things, but I was thinking if this is the case, then one way you

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could, uh, distinguish between like, uh, you know, you could try to differentiate as a Kubernetes vendor

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or service, you know, someone providing, someone selling Kubernetes basically is you could do your

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pricing based on production versus development. Cause I would assume, I don't know if this is the case,

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but like there is a scenario that like, as someone who's selling, running Kubernetes, you just charge for

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whatever it's used for. You don't care what type of workload is on it. You just meter that it's running

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and you charge for that versus you could say like, oh, we're only going to charge you for production

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workloads. Like for development, it's all free. Do whatever you want. Right. And then effectively,

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because there is, you know, using this survey, let's round up the numbers around. We'll make them

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rounded, you know, 40% of your workloads run in production. And then let's say 60% run, uh, in

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development, then you're only paying for 40% of your Kubernetes usage, which would be a big discount.

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But, uh, I don't know. I don't know what the public clouds do, but it seems like if you're a pure

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software vendor, it's just like, that's money you could have made, but you're not actually losing

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money because you don't have to pay for anything. Right. Hence the great nature and margins on

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software. Whereas if you're actually someone running the Kubernetes, that's money that you are losing

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because you actually have to pay to run that stuff that you then are not recouping. But I don't know,

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maybe everyone already does that, but that's, uh, we'll, we'll kick that over to the, uh, the

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strategy groups who are thinking about these things. Well, look, as you said, I'm a long time Java

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enterprise, uh, user from back in the day and, uh, any discussion about pricing brings all those folks

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out in hives to rely on Oracle. Yes, exactly. Which usually means pain, uh, at some point or,

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you know, cash pain, should we say, but, uh, yeah, they know how to monetize for real.

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Yeah. Yeah. I was just looking interesting. I found a data point that agrees. So it's purely by

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chance, but that issue around sort of, you know, auxiliary applications or whatever they termed it as,

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as I was like, I remember seeing something similar to that recently and being either a bit surprised

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and also kind of not, I, a bit of me thinks, you know, 30% of your workloads are the actual stuff

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you care about. And 63% are auxiliary. You know, that's your sort of backend system stuff that you

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need to do to get that third running. Um, and it was actually, who was this one's a 451 research

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had one. I couldn't tell you when a month or two ago. Um, and they came up with a very,

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very similar figure. So they had 65.2% in this year. They've got predictions

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so precise internal operations. Well, exactly. I'm sure they counted every single one everywhere.

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Um, but you know, it ends up being a very similar figure of internal stuff

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versus customer facing in their case, functions or data processing.

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Yeah. Huh? Well, you'll have to send that to me. I'll have to put it in my newsletter

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available at newsletter.Coté.io. I imagine it's a gated asset, but you never know. It might not be,

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it might be out there. Um, but interesting that that, that higher proportion, it reminds me actually,

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I'll, I'll pimp your newsletter here, Coté saying, you know, the whole Kubernetes experiment over seven

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years, all this effort, all this engineering, all this complexity, and then a third of the stuff

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running on is actually what you want. It's still undeniable a good idea, I'd say, but it's a,

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it's definitely food for thought, isn't it? How much engineering you have to put in just to run

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those 30% of apps you want? Yeah. Yeah. To get, to get the, uh, you know, the new infrastructure

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takes many years and, uh, sorting out, but yes. Yeah. That, you know, if people are interested,

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they should go there. This was an issue. I had an issue. I call them episodes. That's what I call

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them. But this was, this was a, a writeup I had last week where I was just, uh, I think I, what,

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what happened? I read a Stephen O'Grady thing from 2016, where he was speculating about which

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way Paz is going to go. And it was, uh, you know, I was thinking like, oh yeah, well,

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the way it went was nowhere because we spent the last seven years on Kubernetes and now we're

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ready to join the path back up. So there was my extended moping about that. But if you, uh,

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if you go check out my newsletter, you can, you can read that. So thanks for bringing that up.

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That was great. That was a good segue, wasn't it? There you go. I'm getting better.

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Doesn't it, doesn't it make a lot of sense though? Because a lot of what we've been trying to do for

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years and years is reuse, you know, the idea of reuse, let's reuse something because it's cheaper

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to reuse it and to keep reinventing the wheel. Right. If we're running development workloads and

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auxiliary workloads on Kubernetes, we're just reusing Kubernetes, right? So where's the big deal?

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No, no, I, no, I think, I think I agree with you. It does make sense. It goes back to the, uh,

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the champagne dogging fooding, uh, that we were talking about earlier that like, if, uh, if you,

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if you're, if you're champagne flavored dog food, like is, if you're using it yourself in development,

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you're probably more likely to, uh, kind of understand production and make it work well there.

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So that's probably a good move. That has a very different meaning in the UK, but we'll leave that

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there. Uh, instead let's turn our minds to a little bit later on in this survey if I can, uh, where it

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talks about, um, the, the combination of data center and cloud architecture by organization size, right?

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So how big is your organization size? And then how have you sort of architected things? And no surprise

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here that in the smallest group where the organization has maybe one, 200 employees,

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um, there's a small amount of hybrid cloud use, and there's a large amount of public cloud and, uh,

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public cloud only. So, so that's like the biggest group, if you like, I'm on public cloud and I only

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use public cloud is kind of like a big group. Whereas if you get to the thousand to 10,000 range,

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hybrid cloud is now 63%. So almost everybody has hybrid cloud in the 1000 to

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more, right? Anyone more than a thousand. I find that interesting because I, I think back to a

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retailer example from UK recently, this retailer came out and said, oh, we're going to put all of our

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workloads on one particular public cloud. And I was left thinking like, why, why would you do that these

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days? That's crazy because you've basically made a huge public statement that you're locked into one

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particular vendor. They know they've got you because you know, you're not going to go back on your public

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statements very easily. And you've lost out on, you know, the ability to enter some competition into the

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pricing to be able to move your workloads around to where they've got the better services. You know,

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maybe you want chat GPT because it's on Microsoft and maybe you want, you know, uh, databases are on

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Google or whatever. The inability to be able to move around seems absolutely crazy to me. And then

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within a month or so CTO is gone. So it's like, this is not, if you're not in the hybrid space

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over a certain size, you should be asking yourself, why not? I think it doesn't make a lot of business

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sense to be exclusive to one particular public cloud vendor over a certain size. There's always going to

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be acquisitions. You're always going to be merging with other companies. You're never going to be able to

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control that the way that you think you can. And, um, it reduces your choice. So why would you do that?

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Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good case for, uh, realizing that you always have heterogeneous

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IT or at least should be open to that. You know, if only because of like, you're saying the acquisition

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thing, right? Like that's, there's, there's different, I was, I was in a, uh, like at one of these

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dinners, uh, I go to every now and then recently. And there were, there was, there were the two sides

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of that where there was someone at a, at a really big, uh, company, mostly, mostly European, uh,

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company. And they were saying they had moved all of their stuff to Google cloud, except desktop

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management, which sort of like, well, that makes sense, right? Like, you know, you gotta have your,

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I forget what Microsoft's desktop management thing is called nowadays, but you know that you just do that.

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And, uh, and then there was someone else who said, oh, they, they, they,

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they were kind of like a conglomerate company. They acquired a lot of companies and they said,

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yeah, every time we acquire a company, we basically just figure out if we leave them alone or if we

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move them to our, you know, our thing, depending on how they're doing. And, um, I don't know, some,

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somewhere, it seems like the larger the company, the more likely, uh, you sort of do both of those

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or not, who knows? Like on the other hand, I, I was, uh, while waiting for the long line of the

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delicious university Flemish food. Uh, like I was talking with some, uh, some, some Dutch people

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about how, uh, why don't these, why do these companies keep doing things 60 different ways

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and not just consolidate to best practices. But I, I, I think Ben, you would advocate for,

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you know, five at most different ways, not, not 60 different ways of doing it, but it, you know,

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00:33:46,580 --> 00:33:48,500
or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

361
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:52,980
Yeah. But whatever, whatever you aim for is probably not what you end up with. So yeah,

362
00:33:52,980 --> 00:34:00,180
exactly. Well, I, I have, uh, uh, I have my next meeting is starting up here as you can hear.

363
00:34:02,020 --> 00:34:07,540
I'm getting, I'm getting kicked out of the room as, as I used to say in the, in the physical world.

364
00:34:07,540 --> 00:34:13,300
Uh, but I think, you know, I think as I, I always enjoy a survey and the last thing that I'll go over,

365
00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:18,100
this, this is where, when it comes to technologies use, I should really go dig into the, uh, the

366
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:23,620
extended data, but it looks like, it looks like Simon Wardley's dreams, uh, from seven or eight

367
00:34:23,620 --> 00:34:28,420
years ago that, that next year is going to be the year of serverless. It looks like it's increasing.

368
00:34:28,420 --> 00:34:35,220
Cause I think, I think when you look at the technologies people use, uh, in 2020, 30% of

369
00:34:35,220 --> 00:34:40,820
people reported using, you know, uh, serverless slash FAS function as a service. And now it's up to 53%.

370
00:34:41,620 --> 00:34:46,980
So that is a huge growth amount, uh, for people using serverless stuff. So finally, uh, you know,

371
00:34:46,980 --> 00:34:53,060
the, uh, those, which way does it go? I think a Wardley map, the good stuff is on the right side.

372
00:34:53,060 --> 00:34:58,980
If, if I remember, I forget which, I mean, here's, here's a tip, right? Yeah. Yeah. Here's a tip,

373
00:34:58,980 --> 00:35:03,460
at least in the Western world, the good stuff is always on the right in a chart. If you find yourself

374
00:35:03,460 --> 00:35:07,540
making a chart the other way, you're doing it wrong. You're going to confuse people, but you know,

375
00:35:07,540 --> 00:35:12,660
maybe, maybe the right side of the Wardley charts, uh, will finally be cool. Although I guess that

376
00:35:12,660 --> 00:35:17,460
would be in the middle and, and the, the, the left. Cause his point would be, these are commodity

377
00:35:17,460 --> 00:35:23,300
things that you should not worry about specializing. And that's serverless is kind of the bridge between

378
00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:28,100
serverless is kind of like his value line. Anyways, I should probably not speculate, uh,

379
00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:33,540
too much. Cause I haven't read his stuff in a long time, but serverless has gained in popularity in the,

380
00:35:33,540 --> 00:35:42,020
uh, the Kubernetes world. It looks like, well, yeah. And, uh, our listener anchor, uh, also, uh,

381
00:35:42,020 --> 00:35:47,700
prompts us to, uh, mention as well that, uh, wasm is mentioned in this survey too, isn't it? There's a,

382
00:35:48,260 --> 00:35:55,380
there's a definite, uh, sort of eye on the horizon at what technologies might come next. Um, not only in

383
00:35:55,380 --> 00:36:00,820
the sort of serverless space, but generally in the sort of container space. And, um, and wasm is,

384
00:36:00,820 --> 00:36:06,500
is mentioned in this survey and seems to be, uh, maturing as a technology that could offer,

385
00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:13,140
um, some new benefits, uh, after containers or, you know, post in a post container world, I guess.

386
00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:19,140
Now, now in true, I figured out this is, this is, uh, as they say, our, our primary bit here

387
00:36:19,140 --> 00:36:23,300
in the Tanzu talk news podcast. Does it, does any of us actually know what that is?

388
00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:30,900
The, the, the wasm stuff. I am getting increasingly intrigued by it. And I think I'll, I'll go off and

389
00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:36,580
do a little bit more digging on that, but yeah, I, I, I understand that, you know, how, uh, the sort

390
00:36:36,580 --> 00:36:42,100
of container view of the world is that you share a kernel and you share certain things from the sort

391
00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:49,540
of, uh, Linux, uh, underpinnings, but then each container runs in its own, um, secured sort of

392
00:36:49,540 --> 00:36:56,900
sandbox, if you like, where the, where the actual code is, uh, it's kind of like the, the next level

393
00:36:56,900 --> 00:37:02,820
up from that, where actually you don't need it. I don't think you need a kernel anymore. So you can

394
00:37:02,820 --> 00:37:10,260
start to get much slimmer, much, uh, faster startup times and other sorts of, uh, benefits from that.

395
00:37:10,260 --> 00:37:15,620
But I'm speaking from a point of huge ignorance. I need to go and have a, have a, a deeper look at

396
00:37:15,620 --> 00:37:20,580
that, but it is very intriguing that it's coming up time and time again in, in more and more surveys

397
00:37:20,580 --> 00:37:23,060
as, uh, the technology to watch.

398
00:37:23,060 --> 00:37:30,660
Ah, it sounds like, it sounds like, uh, unikernels except comprehensible, uh, which maybe, maybe that

399
00:37:30,660 --> 00:37:31,540
would be interesting.

400
00:37:31,540 --> 00:37:37,060
Yeah. I'm like Ben, I've read a few articles on it and it just has not sunk in what the difference is.

401
00:37:37,060 --> 00:37:41,620
In my head, I still think it's another redo of Java in a way, as in Java was that, you know,

402
00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:47,300
right once run anywhere. And that was the JVM and everything. And I read about wasm and it sounds

403
00:37:47,300 --> 00:37:51,300
the same because I'm not a developer. Um, and it just sounds like, well, we'll do, you know,

404
00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:54,420
you can do away with Kubernetes. You won't need it. You'll run everything in wasm.

405
00:37:54,420 --> 00:37:59,380
Uh, someone put out a good tweet, probably Kelsey, who knows, um, along those lines saying,

406
00:37:59,380 --> 00:38:04,020
you know, it felt again, like that matrix thing of once you use it, you won't need to

407
00:38:04,020 --> 00:38:09,540
dodge bullets philosophy. Um, but I'm amazed by those numbers actually, you know, that they're

408
00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:14,580
showing here of sort of 37% of organizations, I think, end user organizations saying they've

409
00:38:14,580 --> 00:38:20,100
already deployed an application using WebAssembly, whereas it feels just like, uh, a lot of chatter,

410
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:22,420
but not much on the ground. And maybe that's not the case.

411
00:38:22,420 --> 00:38:27,940
Well, they do say that, you know, many are still testing the water. So of that 37%,

412
00:38:27,940 --> 00:38:32,980
it might be one-offs, you know, where, where someone's sort of trying something out and trying

413
00:38:32,980 --> 00:38:37,940
to get more familiar with the technology. And that makes a lot of sense. I think it is still

414
00:38:37,940 --> 00:38:42,740
very early days. How do you deploy it? Anyone know? It's for a, you know, a Docker desktop of

415
00:38:42,740 --> 00:38:48,420
WASM style thing that you say, I download it, I run it. Docker desktop does now do WASM. Yeah,

416
00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:53,540
it was added in the last couple of months to Docker desktop. So it is a possibility. You can do it

417
00:38:53,540 --> 00:38:59,860
that way. I can join the 37% fairly quickly then. And I think I can hear someone who's just deployed

418
00:38:59,860 --> 00:39:05,700
a WASM and it's not gone quite according to plan. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Very true.

419
00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:09,940
Well, did I, did I go over my standard Debbie Downer thing about the demographics for,

420
00:39:09,940 --> 00:39:16,020
for the CNCF survey? I forget. No, do your Debbie Downer. Well, to your, to your point, Ed,

421
00:39:16,020 --> 00:39:20,900
like I, I always like, you know, the, the, it looks like, uh, in, in the, the methodology,

422
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:25,620
if you read through it, they've actually got, tried to get a wider representation of just people

423
00:39:25,620 --> 00:39:30,020
who would gleefully, you know, respond to the newsletters and the Twitter account, which is,

424
00:39:30,020 --> 00:39:34,580
you know, the primary way they recruit the people who answer these questions, but they also went out and

425
00:39:34,580 --> 00:39:40,260
scanned. They partnered up with Dynatrace and Datadog to, uh, as they, as they, uh, say,

426
00:39:40,260 --> 00:39:47,220
get the anonymized data about what's running, uh, uh, out there. And I think we covered the Dynatrace

427
00:39:47,220 --> 00:39:53,060
stuff, uh, last week. Uh, and so you do have that, you know, you're kind of expanding beyond

428
00:39:53,060 --> 00:39:58,660
like the self-identifying CNCF community people. And it looks like they also used a third agency to

429
00:39:58,660 --> 00:40:04,420
recruit some people outside of, uh, outside of their own thing. However, like it's, it's always good to

430
00:40:04,420 --> 00:40:09,620
keep in mind that like, even though Kubernetes has like, definitely like mindshare and people are

431
00:40:09,620 --> 00:40:16,100
interested in it, like, you know, to use, um, a recent Gartner estimate, only, only 5% of terrestrial

432
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:22,660
workloads run on Kubernetes. Right. So there's still like of the people, you know, all of the applications

433
00:40:22,660 --> 00:40:27,860
out there, there's still a very small amount running in Kubernetes. So to say that like 37%

434
00:40:27,860 --> 00:40:33,300
of applicate, you know, of people using Kubernetes use any technology is still a very small thing,

435
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:39,860
which is not to say it's bad. It's just like, add some context to it. But as been mentioned,

436
00:40:39,860 --> 00:40:44,580
I think we need to go debug a few deploys. Uh, we haven't figured that out yet. The,

437
00:40:44,580 --> 00:40:49,060
the alarms are going off there and, uh, we've got to handle that stuff. So as always,

438
00:40:49,060 --> 00:40:52,980
this has been TanzuTalk. If you want to get the, the, the, the show notes for this episode,

439
00:40:52,980 --> 00:40:58,420
see how to subscribe, all of that. You can go to, uh, TanzuTalk.com and, uh, we'll have some

440
00:40:58,420 --> 00:41:02,180
links to things we mentioned and other stuff. And with that, we'll see everyone next time.

441
00:41:02,180 --> 00:41:02,820
Bye-bye.

442
00:41:03,820 --> 00:41:04,340
Bye-bye.

443
00:41:04,340 --> 00:41:05,060
Bye-bye.