1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,580 Well, this episode, you know, I think it's going to be the last episode we do this year, 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:11,420 at least that I know of, you know, we'll see if it's not. And we come across one that is 3 00:00:11,420 --> 00:00:16,880 scheduled that I don't show up for. I didn't know about it. So I hope this is it. So I thought we 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:23,600 would do the classic thing in a format that I think will be more palatable for us to do it. 5 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,860 And that is, we'll do not only some predictions for next year, and just in case you're listening 6 00:00:27,860 --> 00:00:33,520 to this in the future, 2023 next year, I'll let the listener do an exercise to figure out what year 7 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:39,800 this is. And, and not only that, like I have to do these prediction thing have to, I am asked to 8 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:45,540 participate in prediction stuff frequently. But I thought what we could also do is the our hopes 9 00:00:45,540 --> 00:00:49,820 and dreams, because the prediction is sort of like, you know, what the real prediction for next year 10 00:00:49,820 --> 00:00:55,640 always is, is probably pretty much the same thing that happened last year. That's, that's, that's the 11 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:01,300 kind of, that's, I've tried to get away with that over the years sometimes. And people don't like 12 00:01:01,300 --> 00:01:06,400 that. But it is fun to say what your hopes and dreams are. So I thought we would come to that. 13 00:01:06,460 --> 00:01:11,800 And so we have, of course, the three of us are here, Coté, Ed, and Ben. And I thought I would 14 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:20,740 invite our friend, ChatGPT, to also give some of its predictions. So I've asked it, I will do it last, 15 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:26,760 since it's not human, and it can't be insulted. But the prompt that I had for it is, can you write a 16 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:33,060 2023 predictions piece? It should be predictions for CIOs at large organizations, paying attention 17 00:01:33,060 --> 00:01:38,160 to what's happening with cloud, low code and security. So we'll get to what ChatGPT thought 18 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:46,220 for a while, I fed it a little more things to kind of prime its pump, as it were. But I'll start off 19 00:01:46,220 --> 00:01:53,960 since I sort of gave this to you two, about a few minutes ago. So now you can think of something. 20 00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:09,640 So here is, you know, my sort of easy projection of predictions, and it's a little bit of hopes and 21 00:02:09,640 --> 00:02:16,220 dreams, we'll do hopes and dreams in the second round, is I think that there will be much evolution 22 00:02:16,220 --> 00:02:23,080 of the platform engineering idea. Because I think, you know, to go over it slightly, I think it more 23 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:28,660 or less, you know, it was kicked off long ago, when when Spotify, several years ago, released its 24 00:02:28,660 --> 00:02:34,300 backstage thing, and started developing this notion of an internal developer platform, which is really 25 00:02:34,300 --> 00:02:41,920 just to put it in a brief snarky way, an evolution of the Atlassian portfolio, with a few more things, 26 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:48,280 but it does seem like prime to kind of like, replace that. I don't know if that's good or bad. 27 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,780 But that's, that's a, that's a question I was asking, you know, one of my analyst friends who 28 00:02:52,780 --> 00:02:57,820 cover software development, Bola, in a Twitter thing is like, maybe I wasn't this direct, but I was 29 00:02:57,820 --> 00:03:04,960 like, shouldn't Atlassian be doing this? So I don't know, we'll find out. But I think just, you know, 30 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:10,040 as far as like an internal portal or collaboration thing for developers, it's really evolved into sort 31 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:20,840 of like, here's like, a framework, or a platform, if you will, for building like, this is not the right 32 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,860 thing. So this is the other thing is we need language for this, but the single pane of glass, 33 00:03:24,860 --> 00:03:30,560 that developers would use for existing in their inner developer community, right? In other words, 34 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:36,340 the internet that developers use, but behind their own firewall, and there's all sorts of stuff going on 35 00:03:36,340 --> 00:03:42,220 there. Plus, you bring in all of the stuff of actually running the platform, which I'm still 36 00:03:42,220 --> 00:03:47,780 not quite sure if that's part of platform engineering, as we know it nowadays, or if that's what the site 37 00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:51,900 reliability engineering people do. We've got to sort that out, right? Because I feel like 38 00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:57,000 I should go back and talk to the people in our community who have been doing this, 39 00:03:57,820 --> 00:04:03,500 excuse me, for a while, and see if they have time to actually run and troubleshoot the platform 40 00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:07,260 while they're treating their developers as customers and building their stuff. I kind of 41 00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:09,380 suspect that's a lot to ask for one team. 42 00:04:09,380 --> 00:04:15,140 But we'll see. Of course, unless they're using Cloud Foundry available in the Tanzu application 43 00:04:15,140 --> 00:04:19,940 service, in which case, they can eliminate the need to run a lot of their stuff. Hopefully, 44 00:04:19,940 --> 00:04:24,260 that will be the case with the Tanzu application platform as well, especially now that there is a 45 00:04:24,260 --> 00:04:28,580 Cloud Foundry like interface on top of it. But whatever, we'll see. We'll see how that evolves. 46 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:33,020 But yeah, I think there's enough interest in platform engineering now. And I think people are 47 00:04:33,020 --> 00:04:39,100 over the hump of getting Kubernetes up and running that hopefully, finally, will coast back into the 48 00:04:39,900 --> 00:04:48,620 developer layer of the stack and see how that goes. So I think the way to test this out will be, 49 00:04:50,780 --> 00:04:57,900 one, that idea is used more. But whenever the next round of talking about platform engineering comes, 50 00:04:57,900 --> 00:05:04,140 whether it's the conference that Humanitech puts on or just kind of at DevOps days or in conferences, 51 00:05:04,940 --> 00:05:09,660 there should be a lot more talks from like big end users about what they've been doing there. 52 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:14,220 So that's my one prediction. How about Ed? 53 00:05:14,860 --> 00:05:19,580 I'll just say, so I can paraphrase your prediction, Ed. It's not the same as last year. We are indeed 54 00:05:19,580 --> 00:05:25,340 going back to 2000-ish. So we need a developer intranet and developers and ops are going to go back to 55 00:05:25,340 --> 00:05:29,660 being developers and ops. Am I right there? We're sort of undoing everything, right? 56 00:05:29,660 --> 00:05:33,900 We've put stuff in and now we're like, you know what? We do need operations teams. There's 57 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:40,220 operations teams, whatever we call them. But it's more than the web ones. 58 00:05:40,220 --> 00:05:47,180 That would be a great panel. Maybe we should, you know, people don't like the word webinar, 59 00:05:47,180 --> 00:05:53,260 but what are you going to do? That maybe I should propose like a webinar panel. We can bring maybe 60 00:05:53,260 --> 00:05:57,580 some, not outsiders, whatever, but maybe it could only be VMware people. And we'll say like, 61 00:05:58,140 --> 00:06:05,500 so is dev and ops going to be separate? Or we should say, practically speaking, 62 00:06:05,500 --> 00:06:10,780 are dev and ops as we know it actually separate? And, you know, that would be the whole prompt, 63 00:06:10,780 --> 00:06:14,940 right? Because of course, you've got to have like 30 minutes of setting up context and nuance and it 64 00:06:14,940 --> 00:06:20,300 depends and all of that, which we can maybe just edit out of the recording because that stuff's always 65 00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:26,540 boring. But it is, I think that is a question that largely has been unresolved. There was that time, 66 00:06:26,540 --> 00:06:33,020 y'all must remember, when would this have been? Maybe even five or four years ago when Gartner 67 00:06:33,020 --> 00:06:39,500 came out with its bimodal IT thing and the DevOps people just freaked out. Like that was the last time 68 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:43,340 I think this, we were allowed to ponder this question. But then the DevOps people came in and 69 00:06:43,340 --> 00:06:47,500 just like carpet bombed that whole notion. And you're not really allowed to think about it anymore, 70 00:06:47,500 --> 00:06:55,500 which is unfortunate. But yeah, I think a good summary. Now, what do you think? What's your 71 00:06:55,500 --> 00:06:57,100 prediction for 2023 yet? 72 00:06:57,100 --> 00:07:01,980 Which I've had to think of five. So I don't have any great predictions. Let's go with, 73 00:07:01,980 --> 00:07:06,060 it will be the year of edge. I'm actually not convinced it will be in a way, but you know, 74 00:07:06,060 --> 00:07:06,860 Oh, that's good. 75 00:07:06,860 --> 00:07:11,100 It's leaking ever nearer. It's a bit like, you know, the year of the desktop, isn't it? Or the 76 00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:15,500 year of Linux or whatever it's going to be sort of Linux on the desktop. Edge has been talked about 77 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:19,900 for what, probably six, seven years at least, as that was going to be the inflection away from 78 00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:23,260 centralized clouds, hyperscalers, having everything on cloud. Actually, 79 00:07:23,260 --> 00:07:28,140 edge meant it was going to go back towards some on-prem, some more distributed cloud. 80 00:07:28,860 --> 00:07:33,820 Now there's cloud, all these different things. But I haven't seen a huge amount of it in a way. 81 00:07:33,820 --> 00:07:38,380 Lots of people had edge and then it kind of went away. Then people have tried to get their taxonomies 82 00:07:38,380 --> 00:07:43,500 of what edge is, thin edge, thick edge, all these different bits. And you are starting to see sort 83 00:07:43,500 --> 00:07:47,260 of more products, especially in the Kubernetes area, you know, lightweight versions of Kubernetes. 84 00:07:48,060 --> 00:07:52,140 But it still doesn't feel like it's gone as sort of mainstream as everyone said it would. 85 00:07:52,140 --> 00:07:56,060 Maybe that's just me, right? I'm sitting in a vendor. I'm not out there in factories and retail. 86 00:07:56,060 --> 00:08:00,940 I know it's all there, but I still just haven't quite seen it as the big thing it was meant to be. 87 00:08:00,940 --> 00:08:03,740 I wonder if I'm talking about it five years from now. 88 00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:10,780 I like that because I think using my funny thing of what's going to happen next year is more of what 89 00:08:10,780 --> 00:08:17,340 happened this year. I feel like this past year, and you probably read about it more than I do, 90 00:08:17,340 --> 00:08:24,780 but I finally have figured out that edge isn't just some goofy marketing thing. And to personify it, 91 00:08:24,780 --> 00:08:33,660 I think that edge has figured that out. My sense is that there was a long time where edge was like, 92 00:08:33,660 --> 00:08:44,460 part of the 5G PR initiative, right? And then maybe like cars or something. But then I think what 93 00:08:44,460 --> 00:08:51,260 happened is there's an old category that when I was at Dell, we would delightfully called robo, 94 00:08:51,260 --> 00:08:56,940 which is remote office branch office. And I think maybe that's been pulled into edge. 95 00:08:57,580 --> 00:09:03,100 And then we have a few use cases. Well, I don't know if it's named or not, 96 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:07,260 even though it's a named customer of ours, so I won't name them. But there are certain, as they say, 97 00:09:07,260 --> 00:09:15,500 logistics companies that use edge stuff in warehouses, right? And so I think there is an 98 00:09:15,500 --> 00:09:21,980 appreciation of edge. I think Kelsey Hightower had a tweet that edge just is a new word for private cloud, 99 00:09:21,980 --> 00:09:31,100 or whatever. But I think maybe what it means is small, not public cloud cloud, which is fine, 100 00:09:31,100 --> 00:09:40,460 right? It's totally cool. And I think how I came to accept this category of edge of not being just some 101 00:09:40,460 --> 00:09:51,260 goofy thing is that like there is a category of like a small data center, whether it's in a car or like 102 00:09:52,300 --> 00:10:01,580 a office that is something, right? And if you run it in a cloud native style, it's different than just 103 00:10:02,300 --> 00:10:08,460 older systems that it's probably worth thinking of that as a category because it probably has its own 104 00:10:08,460 --> 00:10:15,180 unique needs and constraints. And therefore, pardon another marketing term solutions that it requires. 105 00:10:17,820 --> 00:10:19,580 That's my recap of your prediction. 106 00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:24,940 There we go. That's fair enough. So more of it and still no clear, is it the year of edge or not? No, 107 00:10:24,940 --> 00:10:31,340 I'm near of a bit more of it. Yeah. Edge reach escape velocity. Edge escape jumps over the edge. 108 00:10:34,060 --> 00:10:36,780 You don't want to jump over the edge because that implies you fall down. 109 00:10:37,660 --> 00:10:41,660 I don't know. How about yourself, Ben? What's a prediction for next year? 110 00:10:42,540 --> 00:10:49,260 I want to riff on what you were talking about, really. I think consolidation is my prediction. And 111 00:10:49,260 --> 00:10:56,300 what I'm hoping will get consolidated is the various aspects of things that have gone before. So we had 112 00:10:56,940 --> 00:11:03,340 we had the whole platform as a product thing. And I think the consolidation that I'm hopeful about 113 00:11:03,340 --> 00:11:13,100 is that developers, security and ops do kind of coalesce around a common sort of platform, 114 00:11:13,100 --> 00:11:18,060 common way of doing things. That's why I'm that's why I'm so invested in the in the Tanzu application 115 00:11:18,060 --> 00:11:24,940 platform, because I really believe in that vision. And I think that we're starting to see this sort of 116 00:11:25,660 --> 00:11:33,260 the roots of that in more discussion of platform engineering. So, you know, having developers being 117 00:11:33,260 --> 00:11:38,940 able to use a single pane of glass based around backstage, which everybody seems to really like, 118 00:11:38,940 --> 00:11:45,580 I really like it. I'm looking forward to learning more about it. Also having, you know, supply chains 119 00:11:45,580 --> 00:11:52,460 in the mix. I think that's really useful as well. You know, so we can try and cut back on some of the 120 00:11:52,460 --> 00:11:58,540 sprawl that we've seen around things like build pipelines, but also add in there the extra stuff 121 00:11:58,540 --> 00:12:05,900 that is required around security as well. So, so sort of having DevSecOps, but as part of platform 122 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:13,180 engineering and and where it's consolidated and and unified around a vision of the world that helps 123 00:12:13,180 --> 00:12:17,740 folks to just get stuff done more easily. So I'm really looking forward to that. And I think 124 00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:26,380 next year will be the, I'll be a really good year for that sort of stuff. I think it will be, 125 00:12:26,380 --> 00:12:32,700 it will hopefully accelerate and we'll, we'll pick up some pace and we'll, we'll also pick up some folks 126 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:39,660 who, who share that vision as well. I like that. Like, I think there's a common thread in, in, 127 00:12:39,660 --> 00:12:45,740 in our three things, if I can try to common thread it, if that's a verb. And that is like, boy, 128 00:12:45,740 --> 00:12:51,340 can we stop the analysis and just build the stack, right? Like in, in the sense of like, 129 00:12:51,340 --> 00:12:55,260 there's all of these different components or definition of what edge is. And like, 130 00:12:55,260 --> 00:13:00,300 it'd be nice to, uh, try to hop over to use the diffusion of innovation, you know, 131 00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:07,180 Gartner hype cycle thing. Like let's, uh, let's use the, the upward, you know, ramp to just get to 132 00:13:07,180 --> 00:13:12,220 that plateau of productivity and just start working on stuff rather than spending all this time 133 00:13:13,020 --> 00:13:17,820 sorting out what, uh, what works and doesn't work. And, you know, I, I had to, I had to say, 134 00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:23,500 Ben, as maybe you're, uh, uh, it's not our fiscal year isn't over yet, but calendar year 2022, 135 00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:28,780 uh, performance review. I think you've been doing a great job, Ben, like just finding all these little 136 00:13:28,780 --> 00:13:33,900 parts of our stack and big parts and making, uh, educational videos about them. I think it's, 137 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:38,540 it's nice. Like the, uh, the backstage one recently was, was impressive. I, I can tell 138 00:13:38,540 --> 00:13:43,420 you spend a lot of time on that because like me, it didn't take you two hours to explain like, uh, 139 00:13:43,420 --> 00:13:47,500 uh, you know, 10 different things and demo it. It was well thought out. 140 00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:52,220 That's, that's, that's, and the reality was that there weren't many hours spent on that. 141 00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:54,220 So I was feeling for someone else. 142 00:13:54,220 --> 00:13:56,940 Ah, that's the best way to do it then. 143 00:13:56,940 --> 00:14:01,820 So I got sort of, yeah, it was a very deep end sort of thing, but I am, 144 00:14:01,820 --> 00:14:06,540 I have only scratched the surface there and I am really looking forward to, uh, to going deeper. 145 00:14:06,540 --> 00:14:11,980 Just before we, we started talking on this show, I was working on, um, I was working with someone 146 00:14:11,980 --> 00:14:17,900 else on a script that have some videos that they're going to produce around, uh, backstage. And, and 147 00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:23,020 there's so much debt, there's so much more to say about it. I, I only scratched the surface in that, 148 00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:26,780 in that last video. So I'm looking forward to doing more of that for sure. 149 00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:33,340 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I've learned over the last 20 odd years, 150 00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:38,060 I should never promise anything that I'm going to do in the future. Uh, that's, that's always 151 00:14:38,060 --> 00:14:43,660 terrible, but like, I, I think it'll be good to get some more, uh, backstage talk on, on this. 152 00:14:43,660 --> 00:14:49,180 Cause I think it is like, you know, a good platform for building stuff out or, you know what? 153 00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:52,780 I don't even know if it's technically good. I'll have to take people's words, but it seems to be 154 00:14:52,780 --> 00:14:58,300 what people want to do, which, which is as, as someone who only makes slides, that's what I care 155 00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:04,380 about. Uh, so that's, that's, we have that. All right. So as promised, let's check in with our 156 00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:10,140 friend chat GPT and see what their prediction, uh, for the years now, part of the prompting that I did, 157 00:15:10,140 --> 00:15:15,820 as I said, you know, it could use some forecasting from Forrester and Gartner about things. And as, 158 00:15:15,820 --> 00:15:20,940 as is a good disclaimer with all chat GPT things, I did not actually go fact check any facts that it's 159 00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:25,900 included. So it could have totally made this up, but you know, maybe, maybe, uh, you know, you probably 160 00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:31,100 have a sense for this stuff, Ed, maybe you can do some casual fact checking. Now it is prediction 161 00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:36,380 piece that wrote, you know, that obligatory first paragraph of just nonsense, which is good, good job 162 00:15:36,380 --> 00:15:43,420 for it, but let's, let's go to it. I like its little style here. Uh, first let's talk about the 163 00:15:43,420 --> 00:15:48,700 cloud. According to recent forecasts from Gartner and Forrester, the global cloud market is set to 164 00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:55,180 continue its rapid growth with spending on cloud services and expected to exceed 500 billion by 2023. 165 00:15:55,740 --> 00:16:00,300 Again, I don't know if that's true or not. This growth is driven by a number of factors, 166 00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:05,020 including the increasing popularity of cloud-based collaboration and productivity tools, 167 00:16:05,020 --> 00:16:09,580 the rise of remote work and growing demand for cloud-based data and Linux and machine learning. 168 00:16:09,580 --> 00:16:14,540 I still don't know what it's predicting CEOs at large organizations must be prepared for this continual 169 00:16:14,540 --> 00:16:19,260 growth in cloud and must consider how they can take advantage of it to improve their own operations. 170 00:16:20,060 --> 00:16:24,540 Additionally, they must consider investing in cloud-based data, Linux data analytics and machine 171 00:16:24,540 --> 00:16:28,940 learning. So it really hasn't made a prediction. It's just saying what you should do. And I must say, 172 00:16:29,820 --> 00:16:34,060 however, the accuracy of this prediction, I think according to our rule is probably 100% 173 00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:42,780 because this is basically what you should have done last year as well. So I used to write essays like 174 00:16:42,780 --> 00:16:49,340 this in high school and I would get a solid B plus because the notes from the teacher would say, 175 00:16:49,340 --> 00:16:57,500 very well reasoned, but this was not what I asked you to do. So we'll give this prediction a B plus. 176 00:16:57,500 --> 00:17:05,660 All right. Well, so the next round is the old hopes and dreams, which I have learned when you write a 177 00:17:05,660 --> 00:17:11,180 predictions piece, this is what you actually need to kind of weasel your way into writing because no one 178 00:17:11,180 --> 00:17:16,540 wants to predict stuff. You just want to tell people what your hopes and dreams are. And I think 179 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:25,420 I think, I think my hopes and dreams for our space is, I mean, I've already alluded to a little bit, 180 00:17:25,420 --> 00:17:30,620 but I think it would be great. And I mean, I'm kind of, I'm coasting off what you were saying here a 181 00:17:30,620 --> 00:17:37,180 little bit, Ben, but I think it would be great if we started to standardize a lot of the stuff in the 182 00:17:37,180 --> 00:17:45,180 stack. Right. And like, and, and what we've seen, I believe is that all the container-based stuff 183 00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:49,660 and the infrastructure layer for people who care about applications development. I mean, 184 00:17:49,660 --> 00:17:53,820 I don't think there was a vote or anything taken, but like, everyone's basically like, 185 00:17:53,820 --> 00:17:57,580 yeah, we're going to use Kubernetes for that. And even, even if it's not the case, like, 186 00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:04,460 I mean, last I checked, I think estimates about the total number of workloads that are running on 187 00:18:04,460 --> 00:18:10,220 Kubernetes is something like, I don't know, 10 or 15%. I guess it depends how you count it. 188 00:18:10,220 --> 00:18:14,140 If you're counting like sheer processes, it might look different than if you count applications, 189 00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:22,140 who knows? But for example, I saw a, um, an estimate from IDC that there's like 500 million legacy 190 00:18:22,140 --> 00:18:27,100 applications running in the world. So I assume there's at least 500 million applications that 191 00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:33,260 are not running in Kubernetes. I don't know. My point being that it seems like people have agreed 192 00:18:33,260 --> 00:18:38,780 that Kubernetes is the way of the future. However, I don't think there's much consolidation about what the 193 00:18:38,780 --> 00:18:45,260 overall platform looks like, nor even what the language that we use is. So it'd be great 194 00:18:45,260 --> 00:18:50,460 if there was further, just like, oh, we're just going to use this way of doing stuff instead of 195 00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:54,700 kind of like debating a bunch of different, uh, things for it, you know, even having the language 196 00:18:54,700 --> 00:19:00,060 of what we would call application lifecycle management or the software delivery lifecycle, 197 00:19:00,060 --> 00:19:05,660 whatever all those tools are. I mean, I really hope it's not going to be internal developer portal, 198 00:19:05,660 --> 00:19:11,100 because not only does that sound horrendously boring, but it has the word portal in it, uh, 199 00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:16,220 which is just like, I don't know. I've made this joke before, but I think if people, 200 00:19:16,220 --> 00:19:22,140 whoever is using the word portal clearly didn't live through Java enterprise stuff in the 2000s, 201 00:19:22,140 --> 00:19:28,060 uh, because you, you would never use the word portal again after that. Uh, it just, 202 00:19:28,140 --> 00:19:34,620 you know, I don't even like to say it, or maybe, maybe the video gamers though, Coté, you know, 203 00:19:34,620 --> 00:19:43,740 portal, amazing video game, right? Oh, okay. Okay. I guess, I guess maybe since the days of J2EE, 204 00:19:44,620 --> 00:19:52,860 there has been a, a, a deep cultural acceptance of sci-fi time travel and fantasy nerd culture, 205 00:19:52,860 --> 00:19:58,300 it's, it's gone mainstream. And so maybe the word portal now has very positive associations 206 00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:03,900 to it because it's like a portal into fun and enjoyment and even culture. And so, uh, I'm, 207 00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:07,340 I'm just the old here. No, it's just the game. That was the only good tip. 208 00:20:09,820 --> 00:20:13,580 Yeah. Doctor Strange would be hella boring without portals, right? 209 00:20:14,380 --> 00:20:19,420 That's true. And that, that, you know, I, I think, I think that, uh, that Spider-Man movie with, 210 00:20:19,420 --> 00:20:22,220 with the, the time travel and the dimensions, that was pretty good. 211 00:20:23,820 --> 00:20:26,860 So portals are good, just not in the actual IT world. Yeah. 212 00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:32,700 All right. Well, how about yourself, Ed? What's your hopes and dreams for, 213 00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:36,460 for calendar year 2023? Funnily enough, I was thinking along very similar lines, 214 00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:39,580 because I was going to say, I just want to be able to push a button and have everything work. 215 00:20:39,580 --> 00:20:44,060 You know, I'm kind of fed up in a way of, I do bits of hands-on work and it's like, 216 00:20:44,060 --> 00:20:49,100 I've got to figure this, sort that and sort this. And there's just tons and tons of it. And occasionally, 217 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:52,220 especially when you want to get your marketing and your slides done, right? Which I always do as 218 00:20:52,220 --> 00:20:56,380 well. But this is just a chore. This is a pain. And there's eight different versions of that. 219 00:20:56,380 --> 00:21:00,620 I want to try out and learn. So I was like, I just kind of want that to get simpler. 220 00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:05,660 But on the other side of it, actually, I would get bored if that happened. I've actually loved the 221 00:21:05,660 --> 00:21:10,380 last few years, because there was a point when I did get very bored of IT. And I mean, we're going 222 00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:14,380 back 20 years or something. So probably pre vSphere and things in a way, but it was like, hey, 223 00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:19,260 there's another version of Windows, whatever. There's another version of it. There's no excitement at 224 00:21:19,260 --> 00:21:23,420 all that. Another smooth upgrade. How boring. 225 00:21:23,420 --> 00:21:28,140 Yeah. Exactly. Actually, you know, the last, whatever it's been, five, six years, more than 226 00:21:28,140 --> 00:21:31,820 that in a way, there was suddenly a load of new stuff. And the whole cloud native thing, at least 227 00:21:31,820 --> 00:21:36,780 for me, has been a really good journey of learning new technologies. There's a wealth of stuff. There's 228 00:21:36,780 --> 00:21:41,820 always more to learn, but it got me more engaged. And now it's platform engineering and there's a whole 229 00:21:41,820 --> 00:21:46,300 layer that goes on top. So once you scratch that little itch of, I need to know about Kubernetes, 230 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:51,660 it's like a Mandelbrot set. There's an infinite amount to learn. And my kind of geek brain likes 231 00:21:51,660 --> 00:21:56,220 that. I like having new stuff. I can go also that area over there. And you know, it distracts me from 232 00:21:56,220 --> 00:22:00,700 my work, even that kind of ease work. So I could spend weeks learning about backstage when actually 233 00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:05,180 I need to know the top 10 things and that might be it. But, um, so yeah, my hopes and dreams, I suppose, 234 00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:08,940 more of the complexity, but I don't get fired for not doing the right things. 235 00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:13,740 That's, that's, yeah, I like that last part. That's, that's always my, that's my constant 236 00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:19,260 hope and dream always. But, you know, you know, you're reminding me of like, I don't know if it's 237 00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:23,420 a theory, but this thought that I have in the back of my head. And since, since, you know, in, in your 238 00:22:23,420 --> 00:22:28,540 area, you, you, uh, week to week cover closely everything that's going on in the cloud native space. 239 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:34,940 And, uh, you know, you're evolving the theory I have in my head. And this, this, this, this line of 240 00:22:34,940 --> 00:22:43,740 thought is that it's kind of impossible to cover like the cloud native space because you can't just 241 00:22:43,740 --> 00:22:51,180 like spin up your own lab to actually like compare and contrast different cloud stuff. Like if you are, 242 00:22:51,180 --> 00:22:58,300 it just, it wouldn't be economically feasible to compare the different Kubernetes distros for private 243 00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:04,860 or edge. Like, how would you even do that? Right. And, and therefore it's just like the way that, 244 00:23:04,860 --> 00:23:11,020 for example, analysts and others cover that stuff is, I mean, the first word that popped in my head 245 00:23:11,020 --> 00:23:17,740 was fraught, but it's really hard. Like all you can go off is like your intuition and what people have 246 00:23:17,740 --> 00:23:26,220 told you, like, I don't know. It's, it's different than like testing out word processors. Right. And 247 00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:31,420 however, what you're saying does get me thinking that like, this is an area where public cloud 248 00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:38,220 theoretically could be different because that's the whole point of public cloud is you can do that 249 00:23:38,220 --> 00:23:43,740 like very easily. And so it's almost, it almost makes it extremely difficult to compare public cloud 250 00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:49,020 to like private cloud cloud native stuff. Because a lot of the times, if you were like, I got to write 251 00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:55,740 this report, it's got to be out in like three days or a week. And it's going to take me that long. 252 00:23:56,380 --> 00:24:01,020 I mean, like, and that means that I need to basically test the stuff out in a day, because then I got to 253 00:24:01,020 --> 00:24:05,500 think about how to write this stuff up. Then I need several rounds of edits. Then it's got to go into 254 00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:11,100 like frame maker to do the formatting. And then I got to do the final proofing. And so like, 255 00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:17,740 I basically have a day to test this stuff out and you can't do that. So it's, I don't know, difficult. 256 00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:23,100 I mean, you know, AWS probably have 120 releases a day. It's just infeasible to keep up with one, 257 00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:31,020 let alone three, six, 10, 100 different companies releasing things, different projects, which is 258 00:24:31,020 --> 00:24:35,900 great, right? That's what keeps my brain going. But it's getting very hard to do. It's sort of a very 259 00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:40,540 noisy environment, compared to previously, you kind of just knew it's three main options and 260 00:24:40,540 --> 00:24:47,500 the rest are irrelevant. That's right. So, so, so Ben, when you, when you're not experiencing a 261 00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:52,460 smooth upgrade, what, what are your hopes and dreams for the, for the coming year? 262 00:24:52,460 --> 00:25:04,700 I, I really hope this is the year of the Linux desktop, specifically known desktop. 263 00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:07,500 Oh, wow. Going deep. 264 00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:15,580 I'm going deep. So I've been using Linux known for a long time now. It must be like nearly two years or so. 265 00:25:15,580 --> 00:25:22,220 So, so I've, so I've done the trifecta. I've done the windows. I've done macOS and now I'm on Linux, 266 00:25:22,220 --> 00:25:30,700 uh, known, known desktop, uh, with Fedora hat tip to our friends with the red hats, uh, 267 00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:35,980 for, uh, for, uh, for creating that. And, and I love it. Right. And the reason I love it is because 268 00:25:36,940 --> 00:25:43,420 I think every developer should experience it. And the reason I say that is because the known desktop is so 269 00:25:43,420 --> 00:25:50,140 productive, it's ridiculous. It's much more productive than Mac desktop. It's much more 270 00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:57,900 productive than windows desktop. And you get access to all the tools that are already running 99% of the 271 00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:04,860 cloud. So why you would come out of that ecosystem for the sake of a desktop baffles me. You might as 272 00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:10,780 well give it a try. So if you haven't tried it, please go and try it. Give it a try next year, 273 00:26:10,780 --> 00:26:17,660 make it your new year's resolution to give known desktop a try because, uh, it's very, very, 274 00:26:17,660 --> 00:26:23,340 very productive. And I think as we care about developer productivity, we should also care 275 00:26:23,340 --> 00:26:28,140 about which desktop environment they're using and not having to jump through as many hoops to, uh, 276 00:26:28,140 --> 00:26:31,740 to do their work. So try it. I think you'll like it. 277 00:26:31,740 --> 00:26:36,540 That's, that's a good one. I like that. You know, what I think about this every now and then I used 278 00:26:36,540 --> 00:26:42,780 to use, I don't remember which windowing manager, but some X windows thing way, way back when. And 279 00:26:42,780 --> 00:26:47,500 the, the, the, the number one thing, at least that I remember that I miss is, is you could set up 280 00:26:48,220 --> 00:26:55,100 the exact layout, like pixel perfect of all your windows and like save that. And then basically like, 281 00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:59,100 you know, every time you would, you would start again, it would just like open up all your windows 282 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:04,620 exactly where you wanted them. And I don't know, maybe there's a way to do that on, on the Mac, 283 00:27:04,620 --> 00:27:09,980 but like, it's definitely not built into the system as, as far as I could tell, let alone 284 00:27:09,980 --> 00:27:15,580 like some text file, I could just move around and putter with, but yeah, that was good stuff. 285 00:27:15,580 --> 00:27:21,020 If you want to revisit those heady days, Coté, then you could try, uh, I think there's a Fedora spin 286 00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:27,580 with the i3 window managing desktop in there. So there's no regular desktop, just i3 window 287 00:27:27,580 --> 00:27:33,100 manager. And you get exactly, I think what you're describing. So yeah, you could relive those heady days. 288 00:27:33,100 --> 00:27:38,620 Uh, for me, that would probably mean going back to when I had hair. 289 00:27:38,620 --> 00:27:43,100 I'm not sure I want to do that. Uh, a different type of heady day. 290 00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:52,780 Hair was a fact. I seem to remember paying people to cut it. I seem to style it into various different 291 00:27:52,780 --> 00:28:01,740 shapes. Uh, you know, uh, usually laboring under the, uh, uh, you know, idea that somehow it made me 292 00:28:01,740 --> 00:28:09,420 more attractive. Uh, I don't think that was ultimately true, but so yeah, I think, uh, 293 00:28:09,420 --> 00:28:13,500 yeah, you could definitely go and revisit those heady days if you want to do, but I, I love known 294 00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:16,140 desktop and I, I think folks should try it. I really do. 295 00:28:17,340 --> 00:28:21,180 Well, I don't mean this to be an ad, but it's just because I was catching up with my old friend, 296 00:28:21,180 --> 00:28:25,740 Bart and George yesterday, but have you ever checked out the, the Dell developer laptop 297 00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:29,180 that like ships with, uh, with the Boone channel? What do you think of that? 298 00:28:29,740 --> 00:28:34,540 Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And it, and Dell are not the only ones who do that. Now you can buy, 299 00:28:34,540 --> 00:28:40,860 uh, laptops that way from HP and Lenovo as well. So they've come ready shipped with some sort of 300 00:28:40,860 --> 00:28:48,300 flavor of, uh, of Linux on there. Usually Ubuntu, uh, 22 Ubuntu uses known desktop. So 301 00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:53,660 okay, good. You'll get exactly that experience. So yeah, I think it's brilliant. 302 00:28:53,660 --> 00:28:59,580 Yeah, I was, I go ahead. I would say my last experience with Linux desktop, which is 303 00:28:59,580 --> 00:29:03,340 going back quite a long way. And the difference is probably, I wasn't a developer, so I was tinkering 304 00:29:03,340 --> 00:29:07,020 and learning it and all that was, it was the least productive thing I'd ever done, 305 00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:13,260 purely because it let you tweak everything. And you know, I'm having to figure out your monitor stats 306 00:29:13,260 --> 00:29:18,860 and fine tune all the various parameters to get your screen looking right. But you could spend weeks 307 00:29:18,860 --> 00:29:23,500 tailoring either the UI, swapping everything in and out, trying to make this thing look nice or do, 308 00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:27,260 it didn't make any difference in the end. So I just went, I'll pick one of them. I'll have a Mac 309 00:29:27,260 --> 00:29:32,380 or a Windows or whatever. Um, but that was because I wasn't doing much with it. I was playing with 310 00:29:32,380 --> 00:29:37,260 it and learning it and configuring it back when Linux needed that and everything else just installed it 311 00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:41,660 and it worked. I think, I think it's, it's, it's, it's like a lot of these, these tools, 312 00:29:41,660 --> 00:29:46,700 like the AI stuff now where you're like, this tool is going to make me so productive once I figure 313 00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:53,340 out, once I stop figuring out how to be productive with it. Like too many, too many needles and 314 00:29:53,340 --> 00:29:58,060 bells and whistles, none of which I actually needed or did anything useful with, uh, just 315 00:29:58,060 --> 00:29:59,100 good distractions. 316 00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:03,900 I think Linux ties together all the threads of everything we've talked about today. You know, 317 00:30:03,900 --> 00:30:08,060 if you're going to be on edge, then you might be familiar with like a Raspberry Pi device or 318 00:30:08,060 --> 00:30:12,700 something like that. Linux desktop, right? If you want to run your like Raspberry Pi with a Linux 319 00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:18,940 desktop, you can, you can even get that shipped with, uh, Ubuntu or Fedora as well, or just use the 320 00:30:18,940 --> 00:30:19,820 regular Raspbian. 321 00:30:19,820 --> 00:30:24,860 You know, I, you're, you're, you're solidifying something that, uh, I've had in the back of my 322 00:30:24,860 --> 00:30:32,620 head, Ben, which is you are, you are a Linux fan. Like I, I, uh, I, in fact, let me, I think I only 323 00:30:32,620 --> 00:30:39,660 know, well, no, you're the only surviving Linux fan desktop Linux fan that I know. And I don't mean 324 00:30:39,660 --> 00:30:45,580 that in a bad way. I, uh, uh, it's, it's delightful. You still use that. There's probably 325 00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:50,700 some people, there's probably some people on my developer relations team who actually are. I just 326 00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:56,540 don't know of it. So whereas I know about you, you, you should do some videos going over, uh, 327 00:30:56,540 --> 00:30:58,700 Linux desktop stuff. That'd be great. 328 00:30:59,260 --> 00:31:04,300 Maybe I should. And, and maybe, uh, for any of Coté's friends who know him, who are on Linux 329 00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:13,420 desktop, just drop him a line and remind him who you are so that, uh, so that, uh, so that he can 330 00:31:13,420 --> 00:31:15,420 put names to faces and all that. 331 00:31:15,420 --> 00:31:18,940 Well, well, you know, you know, maybe I should have Barton on here because I actually have 332 00:31:18,940 --> 00:31:24,700 like a, uh, unexpected history in the Linux desktop stuff. Like way back in 2010, I was one of the 333 00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:30,780 three people who was like running the, uh, the internal innovation like thing at Dell. And that 334 00:31:30,780 --> 00:31:36,940 Dell developer laptop was, was the main thing that we, uh, selected and funded to, uh, to launch. 335 00:31:36,940 --> 00:31:41,660 And, uh, that, that Barton there launched with everyone else. And the whole premise of it was 336 00:31:41,660 --> 00:31:46,060 that when I started working at Dell in 2010, like the number one thing people would tweet at me or 337 00:31:46,060 --> 00:31:50,940 write at me is like, Oh, can you get them to finally like make a Linux desktop that I can just order? 338 00:31:51,420 --> 00:31:55,900 And then, uh, that's what we did. It was, uh, there was a fun, like, um, 339 00:31:56,700 --> 00:32:02,140 it was also a good, a good, uh, lesson in the idea of doing lean startup stuff, which is to say, 340 00:32:02,780 --> 00:32:06,700 don't presume to know what you, what features you should have on your software. Cause we had one 341 00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:12,860 big feature that was actually inspired by pivotal labs at the time, uh, that we spent a lot of time on 342 00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:17,420 that turned out to be just a total dud that we should have, uh, done more incrementally, 343 00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:23,660 but whatever. I'll, it, I, I want to, I want to have him on here to kind of go over, like, 344 00:32:23,660 --> 00:32:30,380 how do you do internal innovation at a big company? I think it would be a fun discussion for him. Well, 345 00:32:31,740 --> 00:32:37,900 I, I didn't, I was scrolling through, I didn't ask our friend chat GPT to do a hopes and dreams thing, 346 00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:44,860 but I remember that I gave, I gave, uh, I gave him a prompt to do a unexpected, you know, you know, 347 00:32:44,860 --> 00:32:51,180 when you write an essay, uh, Ed and Ben, it's one of the things they teach you in intermediate, uh, 348 00:32:51,180 --> 00:32:57,180 rhetoric is that it's fun to put an unexpected surprise in the conclusion, something that is 349 00:32:57,180 --> 00:33:03,180 related to or unrelated to the topic that you went over. That's a little, a little delight, uh, at the 350 00:33:03,180 --> 00:33:07,740 end. And so I always try to not always, I frequently try to do that in my writing and I prompted it to 351 00:33:07,740 --> 00:33:13,020 do something. And so here's your, your, uh, your unexpected thing at the end, uh, from our friend 352 00:33:13,020 --> 00:33:20,060 chat GTP, uh, which is as an unexpected bonus, here's a hangover cure for all those new year's 353 00:33:20,060 --> 00:33:25,660 Eve celebrations. Try drinking a glass of water before bed. And then another one, when you wake up, 354 00:33:25,660 --> 00:33:30,540 this can help to rehydrate your body and flush out the toxins that cause the symptoms of a hangover. 355 00:33:30,940 --> 00:33:37,820 Additionally, eating a small meal before bed, such as toast or crackers can help to absorb the alcohol 356 00:33:37,820 --> 00:33:42,460 and prevent your blood sugar from dropping too low. Now I did not fact check this. Uh, 357 00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:50,460 but this is, this is just what the, uh, the AI generated as a delightful, uh, maybe this is 358 00:33:50,460 --> 00:33:58,700 a hope and dream, uh, at the end. I think, I think dreams summed up as yes. I think there's only one 359 00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:04,300 way to fact check this. I think immediately after this recording, we should all go and get a bottle of 360 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:11,660 hard liquor and hit it real hard and then try some toast and crackers, a glass of water and a snooze 361 00:34:11,660 --> 00:34:23,260 and see what happens. Some toast and crackers. Oh man. Uh, well, last one to sober up is the loser. 362 00:34:24,940 --> 00:34:28,780 How are you managing that observability there, Ben? What, what metrics are you using to check 363 00:34:28,780 --> 00:34:34,380 a hangover strength? I think, I think we'll do what, what, uh, what U S cops do and make you walk 364 00:34:34,380 --> 00:34:39,420 outside in a straight line and then touching your nose and all that sort of stuff, you know, closing 365 00:34:39,420 --> 00:34:44,860 your eyes and trying to grab something, all that kind of thing. Yeah. We all get drunk, then do a 366 00:34:44,860 --> 00:34:50,220 podcast, allegedly having had degrees of crackers and water and the, the voters, the, the viewers can 367 00:34:50,220 --> 00:34:55,340 decide who is the most sober. Maybe that I wouldn't be able to do this, but maybe for the more technical 368 00:34:55,340 --> 00:35:02,060 listeners, uh, the, the, the, uh, the D the, the drunk test is to see if you can from scratch deploy 369 00:35:02,060 --> 00:35:07,500 an application to Kubernetes. And, uh, if you can successfully do it, maybe you're not inebriated. 370 00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:12,940 Now, if you can successfully do it and you are inebriated, usability is high. Uh, they've, 371 00:35:12,940 --> 00:35:19,900 they've done a great job, uh, on, on that there. Well, you know, not to, uh, not to brag too much, 372 00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:23,660 but if we're allowed to use the Tanzu application platform, I'm pretty sure I could do that. 373 00:35:25,020 --> 00:35:29,020 That's right. The, the, the, the Tanzu application platform is like, 374 00:35:29,020 --> 00:35:34,060 instead of driving your car home, you just, uh, you, you take the, the tube or the bus or, 375 00:35:34,060 --> 00:35:36,860 you know, whatever public transportation you have available. 376 00:35:36,860 --> 00:35:39,820 Thank you for the alcoholic platform. And that is not an official marketing name. 377 00:35:40,700 --> 00:35:48,140 No. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, speaking of that, uh, I think, I think this will be 378 00:35:48,140 --> 00:35:52,060 the, uh, I, I don't think I'll come up with any bonus episodes to sneak into the feed, 379 00:35:52,060 --> 00:35:56,540 but this will be the last episode for the year. I think it's been, it's been great. You two do kind 380 00:35:56,540 --> 00:36:02,620 of rebooting this podcast. Finally, it's fun. I think, I think I am now the disorganized one 381 00:36:02,620 --> 00:36:07,100 who scrambles and does things at the last minute. It has to reschedule. You two are very reliable 382 00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:12,060 and professional about it. And, uh, which is what, what I always treasure in a podcast host. So I, 383 00:36:12,060 --> 00:36:17,660 I appreciate the work, uh, in, in rebooting it here and, uh, we'll, we'll be back next year with more, 384 00:36:17,660 --> 00:36:23,740 uh, news on more or less a weekly basis. And, uh, like I was saying, kind of interviews in the 385 00:36:23,740 --> 00:36:28,940 overall cloud native space and things like that. And, uh, you know, hopefully all y'all listeners 386 00:36:28,940 --> 00:36:34,140 will have then and people who view it will have a nice, uh, rest of the end of the year, a good, 387 00:36:34,140 --> 00:36:36,220 relaxing time. What I like about this time of year, 388 00:36:37,980 --> 00:36:43,340 not to be all boasty or, or whatever, but like th this, I feel like is the one time of year 389 00:36:43,980 --> 00:36:48,460 where you can be guilt-free about goofing off. You don't really have anything in the back of your 390 00:36:48,460 --> 00:36:53,500 head of like, even though this is, this is the sanctioned, uh, I deserve it time where I have 391 00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:59,180 vacation. No one else is thinking about work. So I don't really need to either. There's a, every, 392 00:36:59,180 --> 00:37:03,660 everyone can just take a break, which is, uh, relaxing. Of course, those of us who are parents, 393 00:37:04,220 --> 00:37:09,020 we still have that to put up with, but you know, at least, at least we don't have to, uh, 394 00:37:09,020 --> 00:37:14,220 worry about the work area. So, uh, yeah, have a good time. And if you want to get the show notes for 395 00:37:14,220 --> 00:37:19,580 this, you can go to tanzutalk.com and you should subscribe to it. And, uh, you know, the great thing, 396 00:37:19,580 --> 00:37:25,100 if, if, if you're by, if you, uh, if you're of, of the cultures that gift things to people during this 397 00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:30,940 time, uh, before you gift it to them or after you should get their device and subscribe it to this 398 00:37:30,940 --> 00:37:36,220 podcast, uh, whether they listen to it or not is inconsequential to the gift you will be giving us 399 00:37:36,220 --> 00:37:41,100 of driving more downloads. And you could also, whenever you're sending out your, your automated 400 00:37:41,100 --> 00:37:45,740 gift things, tell them, oh, and by the way, you should subscribe to the tanzutalk podcast. 401 00:37:45,740 --> 00:37:52,300 Uh, it'll be delightful. Uh, that's the gift you can give to people that we gift to you for gifting. 402 00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:55,020 And with that, we'll see everyone next year. Bye-bye. 403 00:37:55,020 --> 00:37:57,020 Bye.