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I come up with a new epithet that this is a evidence of that is there's a lot of things

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that I should be doing, but I've gotten good at not doing them.

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And to that end, yesterday, for some reason, I got really interested in the age-old question

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of how much on-premise IT there is versus how much is in public cloud, which I think

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I don't know about YouTube, but I feel like that is one of the major existential philosophic

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questions that started 10 years ago and probably will go for at least 10 more years.

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It's just like the answer to that question drives pretty much everything in enterprise

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IT at the moment.

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Or, well, I don't know.

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I'm going to overstate it and say pretty much everything.

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It's not actually the case.

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By pretty much everything, I mean, I don't know, 60%.

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But is that a super majority?

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70%, right?

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I forget.

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Yeah, no comment.

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But I know what you mean.

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I remember being on lots of projects back in the day that were all building up to data center

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closed down sort of stuff.

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You know, I'm going to close our data center.

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This is it.

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This is the big time.

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We're going to get rid of our own data center and we're going to move everything to the cloud.

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I remember being on loads of those and didn't once experience the data center shutting down.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And then moved careers, you know, and did other things.

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But yeah, so what's the latest then?

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Well, I'll tell you, I wanted to bring this up at the beginning here to get your two's take on this.

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Let me summarize what I sent a rambly unedited memo on this in my midweek edition of my newsletter.

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But let me summarize what I found.

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One, first, there's a huge provisio here.

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I did not spend any money on industry analyst reports.

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And I feel like if I had a spare $2,000 to $5,000 kind of banging around in my pocket that I didn't need,

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I probably could have gotten the answer very quickly.

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But whatever.

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You could have got one answer.

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Yes, yes.

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But just getting an analyst PDF or Excel spreadsheet, that feels like cheating for this question.

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I mean, if you could do that, then, you know, it just like wouldn't be exciting.

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So instead, I did search around the internet and I found the usual press releases and news summaries of analyst stuff.

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And I don't know.

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And I'm not going to go over what it is in detail.

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But I feel like at this point, we might be at a 30% to 40% in public cloud.

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And then whatever the rest of that math is on premises.

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Now, the issue there is then you have to make a big, either a donut or a pie chart,

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depending on if you like things in the middle, of like what types of workloads those are.

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Because I feel like the majority of that would be what we call software as a service or just applications by revenue, at least.

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And I think, on the other hand, if you were to count by like actual applications, like processes,

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especially ones that companies build and run on their own, I kind of have no idea what that number would be.

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I think it might even be like much, much lower.

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Because maybe we have bias because we're talking with a lot of people who are modernizing their applications.

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But I feel like it's very rare that I come across organizations who are like,

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oh, yeah, we're running all of our custom built applications in the public cloud.

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There are many, as you were saying, Ben, who are doing everything or multi-cloud, as we like to say,

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taking on that cloud chaos, to use that fun phrase.

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But, you know, it seems like it's pretty low.

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Now, in contrast to that, right after I decided I was spending too much time on this and I sent out my rambling missive,

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I went over to my other podcast Slack channel and someone had posted a mad money with Jim Cramer interview

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with the CEO or head or whatever he's called of AWS,

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where hopefully this wasn't just offhanded because I feel like it would be accurate if it was well studied

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and was backed up by a bunch of internal work.

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But the AWS CEO said that there's only about 10% of IT in the cloud.

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So there's a lot of TAM out there to eat up, a lot more out there,

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which I was told, as I like to say nowadays, never to do math in public.

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But if I did the math on that, that means that 90% of IT is still on premise, if we take that on faith.

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So we've got anywhere from, yeah, I would say anywhere from 90% to maybe 50%, maybe 60% of IT is on premise.

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But you two, what are, now, Ed, you cover the industry very closely, thankfully.

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Someone has to, you know, amongst the three of us.

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Like, what do you encounter in this area when people are trying to get a hold of, like,

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how much public cloud versus on premise there is around?

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So the first thing I encounter is all the analyst stuff.

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So you learn very quickly, I think, to take all that with a pinch of salt

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because it's probably accurate given their context, whichever analyst firm it is, right?

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But the numbers there vary forever.

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And it's one of those things I think everyone tries to keep a feel on this one, right?

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I certainly have always tried to keep my idea of where do I think it is.

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I can't remember.

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Well, I say I remember, but I don't remember exactly, Pat Gelsinger standing up at one of

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our conferences and putting up some figures around how much was cloud, how much was on

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prem, and predicting where it would go.

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And it was a very, very slow sort of growth to the cloud or slow migration.

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And there was a huge amount of flack at the time on, you know, Twitter and everywhere

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else that, no, this was just VMware saying it's all slow and everything.

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And then I remember sort of thinking, fast forward five, six years, and actually his were

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about right.

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It was a lot slower than at the time the AWS, everyone else was saying it was going.

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And I wish I'd kept those actual figures so I could see, was it exactly right spot on roughly?

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But definitely slower than a lot of people have said.

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I mean, I could benchmark my stuff on my home lab.

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I used to have about, probably at its peak, about six servers in my home lab.

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And now that's gone down to two servers, really, which are both currently turned off.

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And I run my unified stuff for my networking on a cloud service.

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And that's about it.

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I turn them on occasionally.

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I still like the idea of being out of them.

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The rest has gone cloud.

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And I just think, you know, I'm a microcosm of everybody.

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So those are the actual figures.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So do you, like, I'm going to throw a few numbers at you here.

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Do you feel like, do you feel comfortable with a 50-50 split?

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Or do you want more like a 10-90 split?

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Which would you go closer to?

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I'm going nearer to probably sort of 25% cloud, 75% on the road.

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That's good.

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That's good.

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You know, I would be comfortable with that.

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Without getting too nuanced about workloads and all this business, right?

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Because then once you get into, like, storage, you're just like, I don't know.

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This is meaningless, right?

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Like, just because, like, there's so many different uses of storage and things like that

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that it becomes, like, I don't know.

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And it becomes odd.

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Now, you gave a little bit of, I think, your thinking here, Ben.

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Like, over the years, you've done this.

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But also, you know, you've been involved in, before your current role, and also in your

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current role, you've been involved in a lot of, like, putting your hands on keyboards

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and mice and, like, coding up this stuff and moving things around.

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So you've got a good career of experience of, like, we sure would like to run this in

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the public cloud.

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Let's see what happens.

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Like, what's your sense for, maybe, I don't know, you can erase this framing of the question.

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But when it comes to, like, the more widely used application architectures, are they, like,

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ready to all run in the public cloud?

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Or are they still sort of, like, better not making that decision at this point?

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Which is not to say they would run on premise.

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It's just, like, it could be cool either way.

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And you've got to figure out what is best for the application.

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I think, yeah, I think that's the crux of the issue is there's so many angles to it.

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So I think the first thing I would say about this, is it 10% or 50% in the cloud, is that

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that sort of assumes that, the question, if you like, sort of assumes that there's a fixed

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volume.

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So there's a fixed amount.

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And, like, okay, 10% of it's over here, 9% is over here.

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That's not really how it is at all.

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You know, actually, there's been a huge amount of growth in various software and services,

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especially over the last 10 years.

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You know, we all talked about smartphones and the, you know, accessibility that that brings to

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applications, say, for your bank or for your, you know, your email, all sorts of stuff, everything,

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right?

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It's all in your phone.

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They were all additions to what was already there.

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So that was in addition to stuff that was already built.

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So every year, there's more and more stuff getting built.

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But it's in addition to stuff that they already have.

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So I don't think the number, the volume is fixed.

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I think that 10% is possibly true, but yeah, it's hard.

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And when you see it inside organizations and they're trying to move forward, it's very difficult

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for them to do that because they have such a complex landscape inside their organization.

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I like, I like, I always like a moving target confounder that, like, you know, means that

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you've got to, you've got to instead establish like an ongoing model that you can update that

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takes in the, the new inputs and is updatable.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I think, yeah, it's, it's, I would say it's probably, yeah, maybe, maybe sort of 20, 25%,

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like Ed said, but also the industry itself is also changing.

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There's been a lot more talk recently about things like sovereign cloud where, right, actually,

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you know, public isn't right.

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Private data center isn't scalable.

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So therefore, you know, we need something that's kind of in between something that a government

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or a particular territory or region or whatever can sign up to as being okay, that's, that's

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what we see as being the right answer to this.

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And that's also, you know, muddying the water somewhat because it's not sort of, is it public?

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Is it, is it private?

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It's sort of somewhere in between.

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And you might never know what's on there because, yeah, I mean, I mean, to, to do the annoying

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thing of like going back to the fundamentals, like, I think, uh, you know, to, to the, to

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the like strategic choice you make, I, there's two things that you're making me think.

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I mean, one, there's, well, there's three, there's always cost, which is just like, yep,

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cost is cost.

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Like, you got to figure that out, right?

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Like there's no, I don't know.

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That's generally the most straightforward of things.

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But then two, like there, there's the, uh, the, the, the, the using whichever infrastructure

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stack has the capabilities that are best for you.

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Right.

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And, and that reminds me of like several weeks ago, I was talking with someone that was

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like in it at one of the, uh, uh, tax parts of a government, you know, the people who collect

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taxes, arguably every country's most favorite, uh, government ministry or agency, uh, which

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wherever you are, and someone else had like heard a way that they did their architecture

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for tax collection, which was just like, it was like genius because in order to scale up

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to this one-time demand for like taking on taxes, right?

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What they did is they realized that you can basically run the, the front end for collecting

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taxes, just like authenticating and uploading your tax information all in the public cloud.

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And then you can just batch up that data and download it to your own data center.

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Because really when you file your taxes, it's not real time, right?

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Like, it's just like some indeterminate amount of time later, we'll get back to you.

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And so like, it's a great use case of like, of like the, uh, scaling up nature that you

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have a public cloud, which, uh, which, which seemed nice, uh, you know, pretty, pretty great.

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And then, you know, to, to be frank, the second point I was going to make, uh, I've

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completely forgotten.

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So maybe that's, that's a good, was it just, I think it was possibly note to self

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must file taxes because that's what, uh, I said, I started thinking we, we can, we can,

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we can, we can, we, we can talk about my exciting to-do list related to taxes in the two countries

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I pay taxes.

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And after we're done recording here, when we're off the air, that's, that's always, that's

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always a thrilling topic for me.

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Let us know in the comments, like, have you shut down a data center?

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Come on.

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You know, have you, have you done it?

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Have you achieved that mythical golden, uh, amazing, uh, accolade, you know, achievement

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unlocked data center powered down, let us know in the comments.

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Cause we'd love to hear about it because, uh, yeah, it seems like maybe they're not shutting

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down as quickly as some might think.

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I don't know.

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Yeah.

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Who knows?

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I mean, my, my desire, and you'll have to tell me, Ed, if you come across this with your

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well-salted analyst, uh, is, uh, like, I really want that like workload breakout, right?

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Cause like, it's kind of, it's kind of like Ben's moving target thing of like, I don't know.

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I don't really care about like, you know, applications that you buy like ERP stuff.

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And like, as we used to call it COTS applications, cause it's kind of sort of like, eh, unless

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you're like the military or spies, you should probably do that.

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Right.

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Like, it's just like, it's almost, I guess what I'm saying is if you're using like software

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as a service, it's almost not even interesting from this cloud question anymore because you

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should just do it.

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But when it comes to all these other workloads, uh, I don't know, that is, that is, uh, more

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interesting.

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Well, anyhow, speaking of all the other workloads, we should, uh, we should do as, as we're, we're

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chartered here by ourselves to do and, uh, and, and checking on the news and our, our, uh,

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our funny little space here now as, uh, you know, to, to, to, to Ed is the one who gathers

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most of this news.

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So first of all, that's fantastic.

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We get to read all of his, uh, his, uh, scurrying about and summarizing, which is just delightful.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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It's, it's good stuff.

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And so one of the, one of the, the things that, uh, that you highlighted was this concept

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of an ambient mesh that I think, uh, is essentially, uh, kind of latching, not latching onto, but

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kind of rethinking about how service mesh is done in the Istio world.

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I shouldn't say rethinking.

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It's, uh, kind of a re, would you call it a refactoring, kind of changing it around a

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little bit to, to make it run.

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Yeah.

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But, but instead of me trying to summarize something that I only vaguely know about, why

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why don't you, uh, tell us what this ambient mesh business is?

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Yeah, I can summarize something I don't fully understand either.

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I'm okay with that.

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Um, so, I mean, the simplest thing for me, for my understanding, cause I'm not an in-depth

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network engineer is it's all about the side cars or more of the lack of side cars.

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So, you know, ever since they've been around service measures always needed an extra sidecar

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injected into alongside your pods and that meant performance impacts overheads, all the usual

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kind of data operations of monitoring, managing all those extra workloads that aren't really

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doing all that, you know, they're providing functionality on their own.

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And they're not a thing you would choose to have, but that's just been how it's done.

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Um, and now they've introduced them away in which you will still have a choice.

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You can still run with sidecars if you want, but you can run it without the sidecars.

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And some of those functionality moves to running kind of per node instead of right down in the

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weeds, um, which again gives you, you know, easier ops and potentially better performance.

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There's trade-offs for it.

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I think that's the point.

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Um, and it's, you know, there, so this is now being announced as part of, uh, of Istio,

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but actually about two months ago, I think I surveillance with psyllium, the drone service

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mesh, which has the same thing.

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So it's, you know, it's not just Istio, I suspect there's going to be, all of them will

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go this way of there is an option here.

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Sidecars obviously add enough overhead that people would like an option without them.

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And pick and choose their trade-offs.

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Um, but it certainly made a lot of headlines.

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A lot of people talking about it and I guess it's for me, it's just that evolution.

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The service mesh stuff has always had a reputation for being a bit complicated.

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And this is one step to maybe dial it back and go for people who can accept those trade-offs.

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This might be a better balance, make it easier to deploy.

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Now, now Ben, I'm going to ask you the big hairy question here, which, which I like to

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ask spring people a lot is like, doesn't like spring do all of this already?

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Like, like, like, and, and, and that's a facetious way of putting it.

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But I think, I think with service mesh, the question I'm always trying to figure out is

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like, like there are so many ways of like doing what a service mesh does that how do they

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all kind of layer and fit together?

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Right.

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It's almost like, uh, I think we need to introduce like layers eight to 10 in like the network

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layering stack.

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Cause we keep like messing, we keep messing around at like layer seven, which I think is the

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actual application.

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And I think, I think what's going on in Kubernetes is like a layer 6.5 or something, but we need,

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we need some more.

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This is kind of like a Fahrenheit versus Celsius conversation where at some point you need a

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lot more precision, uh, even though the starting temperature is totally bonkers.

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Uh, but we need to figure something out there.

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So how, how does like, how do the concepts of service mesh kind of mix with just like from

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the Java and the spring framework world where similar things are going on?

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Well, interesting point.

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So, you know, that is quite a myopic view of the world, isn't it?

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It's the Java view of the world, you know?

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So, uh, yes, yes.

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You know what I mean?

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Which doesn't really reflect reality greatly.

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So although spring has a whole bunch of tools that are very easy to use and very easy to stitch

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together, they, you know, you're more likely to use them in an environment that is predominantly

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using those technologies.

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And that doesn't describe everybody.

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So I think the beauty of the sort of sidecar model, um, particularly was that it abstracted

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a lot of the details away for things like routing and security and various other things,

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extracted them away from the software developer who wants to concentrate on business logic,

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which is mostly what they're paid for in enterprises, right?

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So, um, I think that the, the, the model is very strong from that perspective.

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And what's changing here.

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And like Ed said, it's not just, um, Istio who are talking about this or other brands

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of, uh, service mesh that are also discussing it is just making the impact of that lighter

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because it, it, it scales expensively.

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If every pod has a sidecar with it, then, and you have, you know, 2000 pods, you've got,

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you know, 2000 sidecars.

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So if you can reduce that down to instead having a sort of a node sidecar instead, then you

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only have one sidecar per node, then the volume of those things is, is much less.

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And the cost, uh, to run that stuff is much cheaper.

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So from that perspective, from certainly from a cost perspective, it makes a lot of sense.

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And I think they're quoting sort of 75% in a typical scenario in terms of, uh, cost savings,

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uh, where they were to, to where it would be in this new model.

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Um, so if you have a plot polyglot environment and you've got lots and lots of, you know, disparate

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apps running perhaps on very different technologies, um, then it sounds like a really good way to,

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a good thing to investigate for your architecture because it will not only save you cost when

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you build your software, but it'll save you cost when you run it as well.

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So I think it sounds like a really good innovation.

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I'm looking forward to hearing more about it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You know, I mean, you, you do point something good out there that, well, I mean, many good

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things, not just, but, but that, you know, I, I, I guess, I guess you do always have to

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be careful of like, you know, the sidecars wagging the motorbike and making sure that they

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don't become the act, just like governance, right?

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Like you don't, you don't want being, being compliant to actually be the deliverable that

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you're doing with software, which I think a lot of people fall in.

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And then, yeah, you know, my, my, my facetiousness aside, like, I think it feels like, it feels

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like, like at a service mesh layer.

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Well, first of all, I think it bears explaining what the point is, which, and tell me if I'm

326
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wrong here, but it's essentially like with the cloud native application, you basically are

327
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sticking parts of your application into containers that you have to sort of coordinate and run

328
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over a network to make it represent like a whole network.

329
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I mean, a whole application.

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So instead of having just like one process running, you've broken it up into little pieces

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that like communicate with each other over a network.

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And then once you have a network, you've got to like manage the components having, being

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able to find each other and then manage just like connecting them together.

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And then, you know, to overload it a little bit, you get the chance to do sort of,

335
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um, uh, positive man in the middle, not attacks, man in the middle positivity.

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Augmentation.

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There you go.

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We're, we're, we're, we're security wise, you can start to monitor what's happening between

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this and make sure that it's all good, uh, instead of bad.

340
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:56,120
Well, I mean, I mean, augmenting by adding stuff, you know, adding security, right?

341
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So, so your, your end point may in the pod may be unsecured because you can, because the

342
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traffic coming into the pod is only dealt with by the sidecar.

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So the sidecar is a thing that gets secured.

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So it, it does sort of relieve you of a lot of responsibilities and a lot of, uh, messing

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about.

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It just gets in the way of you writing your business logic and, and instead you're dealing

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with all these, um, cross cutting concerns instead.

348
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So, so yeah, it's a useful thing.

349
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I definitely, uh, I definitely think it's useful.

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So, and then, and then as, as, as, as cool thing, the developers get to throw over the

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wall to the ops team, we don't have to worry about that, that, that, that is, I mean, that's

352
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another trend we should open up with, with hand wavy abstractness in some episode is like,

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it feels like the direction that the, the Kubernetes standardization is going is to allow us to put

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that wall back in place, you know, maybe that it was never been removed, but to, to, to make peace

355
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and, and, and, and, uh, what was the word you all use instead of man in the middle and, and, uh,

356
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augmentation improvement, uh, of, of the wall between the business logic and the operations logic.

357
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,140
Uh, I, I, I see it slightly differently.

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I would say it gives an opportunity for devs and ops to go for a drink instead of going

359
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for a meeting about layer, whatever security, right?

360
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:26,240
Yes.

361
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:33,140
No, no dev wants a meeting invite about any of this stuff, right?

362
00:23:33,380 --> 00:23:39,080
So, or maybe someday I'm speaking, you know, uh, I'm, I'm perhaps projecting a little bit

363
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too much, but I certainly don't want an invite to a meeting, a three hour meeting about that

364
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stuff when you could go to the pub and have a drink instead.

365
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,720
I, I think, I think if we, if we workshop that phrase just a little bit more, we'll have some

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snappy fun phrase that you can start using when you're doing your, uh, you know, one minute

367
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segments on broadcast TV about, uh, about what we're up to, you know?

368
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It's been on bites.

369
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:03,040
Yeah.

370
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:04,780
Deb, drink ops.

371
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:05,920
That's what you're talking about.

372
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Yeah.

373
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:07,160
Yeah.

374
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:11,500
We, we, we, we, you know, then, then you can go have a pint together instead of having a

375
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PowerPoint together.

376
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:12,620
I don't know.

377
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:13,960
Like I said, we got to work on it.

378
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:15,600
We got to, we got to figure it out.

379
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:16,680
All right.

380
00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:23,640
Well, also, also, uh, you know, looking over the news, uh, uh, I think, you know, uh, so,

381
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so get labs big, big company that IPO'd recently.

382
00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:31,660
They had, uh, uh, their, I think their, their, their Q2, I don't know what their fiscal year

383
00:24:31,660 --> 00:24:35,160
is, but I think it was at the end of July, their, their Q2 report.

384
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,020
And, you know, I looked through it briefly and I gotta say, it looks like they're doing a

385
00:24:39,020 --> 00:24:39,520
good job.

386
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,080
Like they seem, they seem to be doing pretty well there.

387
00:24:43,180 --> 00:24:47,660
And I thought, uh, you know, it would be a good chance to kind of check in on them and,

388
00:24:47,660 --> 00:24:50,500
uh, and, and see, see what, what they do now.

389
00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:54,040
Now, Ed, you follow the space all the time.

390
00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:56,700
What, how would you characterize what, what Git labs is into?

391
00:24:56,780 --> 00:24:58,500
What's the kind of category that they work in?

392
00:24:59,460 --> 00:25:02,680
So I'll be quite honest and say, I've not looked into Git lab too much.

393
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,380
The only, so the lasting thing I have, if anyone says Git lab to me is that everyone

394
00:25:07,380 --> 00:25:12,440
just wanted to migrate to Git lab when Microsoft bought GitHub, that was the one thing in my

395
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:12,840
head, right?

396
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,100
Well, as soon as Microsoft announced it within days, forums were full of, I've had it.

397
00:25:16,100 --> 00:25:16,860
I'm off to Git lab.

398
00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:21,100
And that, I don't know if that genuinely sort of spurred their business a lot, but it felt

399
00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:23,000
like their moment to grab and go, great.

400
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:23,380
We're here.

401
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,180
And they've kind of been there ever since.

402
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,340
And that might be completely wrong, but that was kind of the only thing that stuck in my head.

403
00:25:28,340 --> 00:25:30,480
And beyond that, I haven't really looked into them, I'm right.

404
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:33,740
I do spend my time in this space, but I've been slacking clearly.

405
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:40,320
I've had the fortune of working for businesses that both use GitHub and Git lab.

406
00:25:40,460 --> 00:25:48,880
And Git lab was extremely popular, mainly because it had the ability to be installed on print,

407
00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:49,180
right?

408
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:54,640
And you can actually put it inside your data center, back to data centers again, and you

409
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,160
could have all your own code and devs will get the same Git experience that they're used

410
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:04,860
to elsewhere, but they could have it sort of in a controlled environment, if you like,

411
00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:08,620
where they're building their private libraries inside their enterprises.

412
00:26:08,620 --> 00:26:14,860
So it was very popular already from that perspective before the sort of announcement of Microsoft

413
00:26:14,860 --> 00:26:19,560
buying GitHub, which I'm sure did accelerate it somewhat as an alternative.

414
00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:28,240
And, you know, I think the main, the high level deal, so to speak, they seem to have is like,

415
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,240
it's an integrated, I don't know, ALM collection of tools, right?

416
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,800
More than just Git as version control on its own.

417
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,820
I don't know what the revenue breakout as far as like, which parts of the product line get

418
00:26:39,820 --> 00:26:40,280
used more.

419
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:48,040
But they seem to have all of those tools from issue trackers, to wiki things, to your source

420
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,760
control, to on and on and on, that you would use in that area.

421
00:26:52,060 --> 00:26:57,560
And, you know, I mean, I think there's a lot of us in that area, we want to improve that

422
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:58,380
tool chain there.

423
00:26:58,540 --> 00:27:02,320
And so it is, it's always nice to see other people succeeding at it.

424
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,040
And I by no means take advantage of the following as much as I would like to at all.

425
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,440
But they are, I think, I think the, they're, they're, you know, I guess you would say an

426
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:11,280
open source business.

427
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,960
But the interesting thing that they do is, I think they basically do most all of their

428
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,540
internal stuff on a public wiki somewhere.

429
00:27:18,540 --> 00:27:24,340
Like you can go read the, the quarterly market plan, marketing planning and OKRs and things

430
00:27:24,340 --> 00:27:29,060
like that, which is kind of fascinating to, as I say, I don't actually go look at it that

431
00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:30,920
much, but it's a fascinating potential.

432
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,820
And they're, and they're remote first as well.

433
00:27:33,820 --> 00:27:39,040
You know, they've been remote first for a very long time and their HR manual, for example,

434
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:45,940
is one of those online and you can find out all about how they operate as a company, how

435
00:27:45,940 --> 00:27:53,980
they operate their IT, how they, you know, support the folks that they have, you know, working

436
00:27:53,980 --> 00:27:56,680
from home from places all over the world.

437
00:27:57,060 --> 00:28:02,040
One of the most interesting things that's in that manual to me anyway, is that they don't

438
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:03,420
buy windows.

439
00:28:04,740 --> 00:28:08,480
So they don't supply staff with windows laptops and stuff.

440
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:09,420
Oh, right.

441
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,700
It's like, no, we're not doing any of that.

442
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:19,380
We want a different approach to our network and the way that we, the way that we work and

443
00:28:19,380 --> 00:28:21,960
the way that we support folks who are working from home.

444
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:28,060
So very interesting that they've turned their back on Microsoft windows, which is kind of

445
00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:31,180
like, you know, the mainstay of enterprises everywhere.

446
00:28:31,620 --> 00:28:36,340
Now, I mean, the major consequence of that is they're probably their pivot tables aren't

447
00:28:36,340 --> 00:28:38,260
going to be as great as other companies.

448
00:28:38,260 --> 00:28:42,240
Cause I mean, everyone knows that if you want like the best Excel tools, you have to run it

449
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:42,780
on windows.

450
00:28:42,780 --> 00:28:45,780
So there, there might be a few tells in their analysis.

451
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,000
I can't say anything about office suite.

452
00:28:49,220 --> 00:28:49,560
Right.

453
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,620
But windows operating system is definitely in there.

454
00:28:52,620 --> 00:28:55,800
It's like, no, you can have Apple or you can have Linux, but.

455
00:28:56,060 --> 00:28:59,160
So it's actually like policy that about what you can run.

456
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,740
Ah, I was going to say, cause I don't even know if you have to pay for windows anymore,

457
00:29:02,740 --> 00:29:07,580
but I see if it's kind of, yeah, if it's kind of against networking policy, then that's

458
00:29:07,580 --> 00:29:08,040
interesting.

459
00:29:08,420 --> 00:29:08,580
Yeah.

460
00:29:08,660 --> 00:29:10,900
But there is a, there is a license for the desktop.

461
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:14,900
So yeah, they, uh, they don't want to pay that license for the desktop and they don't

462
00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:15,380
trust it.

463
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,520
They think it's not very secure.

464
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,580
I think from judging by what they say in the manual and, uh, they want folks to use,

465
00:29:22,580 --> 00:29:27,320
um, Apple or Linux, which, uh, I'm very proud of using Linux.

466
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:33,820
So I'm, I'm all for that, but coming back to what they actually do, I think where they've

467
00:29:33,820 --> 00:29:39,300
really grown in the last few years and, and it's, it's been sort of surprising, I think

468
00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:45,040
it's particularly to, um, you know, folks in the industry is, it's just covering that

469
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,760
whole secure sort of software supply chain.

470
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:54,400
Like you said, you know, the CICD, the, um, static, uh, security testing, the dynamic

471
00:29:54,400 --> 00:30:00,020
security testing, all sorts of stuff that's gone into this huge sort of pipeline of stuff

472
00:30:00,020 --> 00:30:05,020
that can help you get from, you know, uh, an idea through to a piece of deployed code.

473
00:30:05,020 --> 00:30:06,580
And I think that's very commendable.

474
00:30:06,580 --> 00:30:12,080
And that's possibly, um, why we're seeing such good results from them financially as well,

475
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,700
because they seem to hit a nerve, you know, that's good as do we, you know, we, we also

476
00:30:16,700 --> 00:30:18,500
think that that's a really good thing to have.

477
00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:24,120
We're very strong supporters of the whole idea of a flexible software supply chain that's

478
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:25,120
secure.

479
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:30,320
Well, speaking of security, the, the, uh, the sneak state of a cloud security report was

480
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:30,560
out.

481
00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:34,720
I think, I think, uh, you, you enjoyed pouring through that, right, Ben?

482
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:35,440
Is that...

483
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:35,960
I did have a look.

484
00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:36,240
Yeah.

485
00:30:36,380 --> 00:30:36,560
Yeah.

486
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,660
And, and before we get to that, you pronounce it sneak, right?

487
00:30:39,780 --> 00:30:43,140
Is that how, how you, like, that seemed, that seems like, I always thought that was an

488
00:30:43,140 --> 00:30:46,640
odd choice for a security company name, but you know, it's still pretty good.

489
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:47,520
Yeah.

490
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:47,800
Yeah.

491
00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:55,180
I know what you mean, but yeah, sneak in and, uh, uh, you know, an interesting spelling

492
00:30:55,180 --> 00:30:55,820
as well.

493
00:30:55,820 --> 00:30:59,920
I think, uh, I think some folks get caught out from that from time to time.

494
00:30:59,980 --> 00:31:03,140
I've definitely seen PowerPoints with the wrong spelling in there.

495
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:04,120
So yeah.

496
00:31:04,420 --> 00:31:04,680
Yeah.

497
00:31:06,060 --> 00:31:08,620
Well, what, uh, what, what, what do they say is going on?

498
00:31:08,660 --> 00:31:10,000
What's the state of cloud security?

499
00:31:10,460 --> 00:31:11,040
Well, yeah.

500
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:12,080
So they've done this survey.

501
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:18,560
I think there was 400, uh, respondents working in the, um, cloud security arena because of

502
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,960
course they've got, uh, products in that area as well.

503
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:27,360
Um, I'll give you some of the highlights if you like, uh, 80% of organizations have experienced

504
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:33,220
at least one severe cloud security incident in the last year, such as data breaches, data

505
00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:35,720
leaks, intrusions into our environment, 80%.

506
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,960
So, you know, four out of five, that's a lot.

507
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:47,340
But also what's interesting is that, um, there were some findings in there about who's most

508
00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:47,880
susceptible.

509
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:54,180
So most susceptible, they say in this survey, uh, uh, things like public sector organizations,

510
00:31:54,180 --> 00:31:59,040
which you can kind of understand because you know, the, the, the, the, perhaps the investment

511
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,800
is difficult to come by if you're, if you're limited in budgets and that sort of thing.

512
00:32:03,220 --> 00:32:11,020
Um, and also, uh, what does it say public sector and, um, the best were, were actually enterprises,

513
00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:13,620
you know, the sort of folks that, that we deal with.

514
00:32:13,620 --> 00:32:20,100
So, you know, who knew if you, uh, if you spend on good tooling, uh, you get better results.

515
00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:23,660
So that's a, that's a good finding I think from that report generally.

516
00:32:23,660 --> 00:32:33,380
Um, and I think one other thing I'd like to call out, I reckon was that, um, 77% of organizations

517
00:32:33,380 --> 00:32:38,560
cited problems with poor training and collaboration as a major challenge.

518
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:46,420
Now, I like to mention this because I did a video recently about what if your platform actually

519
00:32:46,420 --> 00:32:47,960
trained your people.

520
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,360
So go and check it out on YouTube if you haven't seen it and we'll put a link in the show notes,

521
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,900
but, but yeah, you know, if your platform helped train new people, maybe that can reduce the

522
00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:04,460
burden that's causing 70, 77% of folks to have a problem, you know, getting the right skills

523
00:33:04,460 --> 00:33:07,100
and being able to solve this security issue.

524
00:33:07,780 --> 00:33:11,160
Well, I think this is a good chance for what hopefully will be a reoccurring segment called

525
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:18,220
let's check in with YouTube star Ben and, uh, and see how, how, uh, how, how, how is your

526
00:33:18,220 --> 00:33:19,320
YouTube strategy going?

527
00:33:19,380 --> 00:33:20,140
How were the shorts?

528
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:21,580
Let's, let's do a review of that.

529
00:33:21,580 --> 00:33:25,580
Or do you think it's not as, it's not as regular as perhaps you made out there.

530
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:31,060
Well, I, I feel like it's been a long enough time you've had since last, we talked about

531
00:33:31,060 --> 00:33:31,180
this.

532
00:33:31,180 --> 00:33:35,600
You've had a couple of months to analyze what's been going on with your YouTube stardom.

533
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:40,540
Well, what I did have any lessons learned now, what I did find out Coté from doing a very,

534
00:33:40,540 --> 00:33:49,680
um, small scale AB test was that, um, videos that actually contain my face do worse than videos

535
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:59,160
that don't, uh, completely booking the trend of, okay, we'll have a human in the picture.

536
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:00,640
Some humans, perhaps not.

537
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:06,640
So, uh, so yeah, I take that away as a key thing, uh, for experimentation.

538
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:07,640
There you go.

539
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,640
That's a free one for the, uh, the people out there who are working in nerd space with computers.

540
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,960
Try, try, try not having so much of a face focus on the terminal.

541
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:16,540
That's right.

542
00:34:16,540 --> 00:34:22,160
Maybe, maybe if you had, if you had your head and on your forehead, you put like the terminal,

543
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,460
like do a little green screaming, green, or screaming too.

544
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,900
But you know, that's where you had the actual code.

545
00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:29,380
Uh, well, there's plenty of room.

546
00:34:29,380 --> 00:34:36,160
Uh, I reckon I could probably do that, uh, this stream, basically the least good thing

547
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:36,780
possible, isn't it?

548
00:34:36,780 --> 00:34:38,080
It's just free talking places.

549
00:34:38,580 --> 00:34:39,100
Exactly.

550
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:40,540
Improved.

551
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,340
Well, it's, it's increased by 33%.

552
00:34:43,340 --> 00:34:51,160
So yeah, there's a, there's a, there's an interesting thing.

553
00:34:51,260 --> 00:34:56,300
Have you ever done an, an AB test like that Coté, cause you, your, your shots are excellent.

554
00:34:56,420 --> 00:34:58,660
You know, I, everybody loves them, me included.

555
00:34:58,660 --> 00:35:02,460
I, I, I have to say that over the years, I've done lots of AB testing.

556
00:35:02,460 --> 00:35:05,040
I just have never analyzed the results of the testing.

557
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,320
I, I always, I'm always intending, like I'm going to try something new versus something

558
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:09,560
else.

559
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,940
And so I set it up and every now and then I even set a reminder to go check in on something,

560
00:35:13,940 --> 00:35:15,820
but then I, I don't.

561
00:35:15,820 --> 00:35:18,060
So, uh, I, I don't do that analysis.

562
00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:20,840
I'm very, very waterfall in, in my approach.

563
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,740
I just deliver the thing and then that's it.

564
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:24,760
And what, what did you say in the preamble?

565
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,960
Something about you become very good at avoiding.

566
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:28,400
Ah, yes, yes.

567
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,700
There's, there's, there's, there's a, there's a lot of things I should be doing, but I've

568
00:35:31,700 --> 00:35:33,360
become really good at not doing them.

569
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,740
And, but you know, or, or, or maybe I, or you could also say there's a lot of things

570
00:35:37,740 --> 00:35:40,180
I should be doing, but I've been very busy not doing them.

571
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:41,440
Uh, you know, is another.

572
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:43,820
He prioritized what not to do.

573
00:35:43,940 --> 00:35:45,480
That's very, very admirable.

574
00:35:46,380 --> 00:35:46,820
Exactly.

575
00:35:48,260 --> 00:35:50,760
Well, uh, finally, you know, speaking of.

576
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,000
Of reports and surveys, there's the, uh, also the new Relic observability report came

577
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,640
out and, uh, I knew you took, I know you took a look at that, Ed, what, uh, what jumped

578
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,040
out at you from that?

579
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,540
So the first one, and I think to be fair, this is kind of every survey, right?

580
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,220
This is probably everyone getting them out and ready for cube con and things.

581
00:36:07,620 --> 00:36:12,120
Um, the new Relic one, a bit like the, the SNCC one said, Hey, we do security and everyone

582
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:12,840
needs security.

583
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,620
The new Relic one said, actually, everyone needs observability tools.

584
00:36:16,620 --> 00:36:18,340
Um, there's some stats.

585
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,960
The first one was quite a big survey, actually.

586
00:36:20,020 --> 00:36:22,560
They had over 1,500 sort of people fill it in.

587
00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:25,760
Um, but they ended up saying, I think, where was it?

588
00:36:25,980 --> 00:36:32,680
Um, 82% use four or more observability tools, but basically everyone is using something.

589
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,660
Um, and that to me, I mean, that's absolutely no surprise.

590
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,480
I would have probably put that at a hundred percent.

591
00:36:37,620 --> 00:36:42,100
Frankly, everyone, as long as I've ever been in it has wanted one tool to monitor everything.

592
00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:46,980
Um, and no one has ever had that and no one will ever have that, um, they did say in their

593
00:36:46,980 --> 00:36:51,300
reports that 2% did say they did it all with a single tool set.

594
00:36:51,660 --> 00:36:57,580
Oh, the 2% of probably lying or just unaware of all the other tools that they actually have.

595
00:36:57,860 --> 00:36:58,260
Yeah.

596
00:36:58,440 --> 00:36:58,620
Yeah.

597
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,000
But it's no surprise to anyone, right?

598
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,320
There's a lot of companies in that space.

599
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,820
So lots of tool sets, some of which we do as well.

600
00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:04,040
Right.

601
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:10,400
Um, and probably not the only one you have, um, or it's a, or it's a small business, right?

602
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,800
That, cause that came out in the sneak report as well.

603
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,460
It's like, Oh, surprise, surprise.

604
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:17,440
It's easier to be secure if your footprint is less.

605
00:37:17,820 --> 00:37:19,020
Ah, yes.

606
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,920
And I'm sure the same is true with the deserveability, right?

607
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,260
If you've only got a certain number of technologies or vendors, whatever you probably can do with

608
00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:26,860
one of these unified tools.

609
00:37:27,100 --> 00:37:27,500
Yeah.

610
00:37:27,500 --> 00:37:28,980
Most companies aren't in that position.

611
00:37:28,980 --> 00:37:33,040
And then you're just like, you know, the minute you get above a certain level of detail,

612
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,600
the all in ones never do the job quite right.

613
00:37:35,660 --> 00:37:37,720
So not a big surprise in that respect.

614
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:42,860
Um, they did have a, quite like a third of organizations rely on manual checks and customer

615
00:37:42,860 --> 00:37:44,740
complaints to identify interruptions.

616
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,480
And again, I'd have put that number much higher because however much monitoring is somebody

617
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,960
will always either complain or find something you haven't noticed either way.

618
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,040
It was an interesting approach of actually, for some people, right?

619
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,220
That might still be the most cost effective way of doing it.

620
00:37:57,540 --> 00:37:58,540
Customers complain.

621
00:37:58,700 --> 00:37:59,380
That's fine.

622
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:00,400
That gives you a quick alarm.

623
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:01,060
You fix it.

624
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,820
Maybe you don't lose revenue.

625
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,380
You lose a bit of customer interest, but, um, for some, that'll work.

626
00:38:06,460 --> 00:38:09,480
Um, blockers for adoption of them.

627
00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:12,360
The biggest one was lack of understanding of the tool sets.

628
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:17,440
I think, and what you need to do to get full stack observability, um, which again, wasn't

629
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:18,060
too surprising.

630
00:38:18,060 --> 00:38:19,340
There's a lot of complexity in there.

631
00:38:19,340 --> 00:38:23,300
And I think people used to just think, especially from the IT sort of infrastructure side, well,

632
00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:24,240
monitoring is monitoring.

633
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:30,020
I, I, I know what that is and the new world of observability is a long way from that.

634
00:38:30,260 --> 00:38:34,240
And there's a lot more business understanding required as well as a lot more sort of technical

635
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:34,640
tooling.

636
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,920
Um, so that and budget, having the budget to actually get the observability tools.

637
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,960
I mean, now you have to understand what it is you need, and then you have to be able

638
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,560
to explain to people and give them business outcomes and implement it in a way that works.

639
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,980
And doing that to budget obviously is a bit of a challenge.

640
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,120
And they did point out also that the, the companies who felt they had full stack

641
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,800
observability had put something like 5% of their revenue into getting that tooling.

642
00:38:58,400 --> 00:38:58,940
Oh, wow.

643
00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:00,980
It's a significant chunk.

644
00:39:00,980 --> 00:39:04,220
And I think a lot of companies would struggle to justify that, or it would take them a long

645
00:39:04,220 --> 00:39:04,720
time, right?

646
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:05,960
They'd go through that iteration.

647
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,980
Um, you can't just turn up out of blue and say, we've got all this lovely new cloud native

648
00:39:09,980 --> 00:39:10,440
stuff.

649
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,360
We're migrating 10% of our IT to the cloud, whatever you're going to call it.

650
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,980
Oh, and by the way, we have to spend this much observing it all.

651
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,800
That's a hard ask for people until they realize that it actually is worthwhile.

652
00:39:23,260 --> 00:39:26,660
So yeah, those are, and the only surprising thing I saw in their survey that really stood

653
00:39:26,660 --> 00:39:30,420
out to me was of all, now this was from New Relic and sort of, I guess they've categorized

654
00:39:30,420 --> 00:39:31,340
it the way they do things.

655
00:39:31,580 --> 00:39:35,660
They cover observability for everything, but it was interesting in on the world of these

656
00:39:35,660 --> 00:39:39,740
Kubernetes came pretty much last in the list of things that people wanted observability

657
00:39:39,740 --> 00:39:40,060
for.

658
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,420
So they had 20 other categories and it was rock bottom.

659
00:39:43,940 --> 00:39:47,880
Um, and you know, on top of that was sort of, it's a little difficult without seeing all

660
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:53,020
the questions, network monitoring and sort of database monitoring and infrastructure monitoring.

661
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:56,160
But what they saw as different categories, right?

662
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,760
So presumably you would not be monitoring on Kubernetes network.

663
00:39:58,980 --> 00:40:01,580
It would be generic network monitoring that came top.

664
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:07,280
Kubernetes as a specific area to monitor was very low down and they, they put it down to

665
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,340
just, well, actually on the scale of everything, coming back to how much IT is in the cloud,

666
00:40:12,260 --> 00:40:13,620
Kubernetes is still a small chunk.

667
00:40:14,420 --> 00:40:18,620
Um, when you look at the whole landscape, whether that's mainframes, x86, everything,

668
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:24,580
Kubernetes is new, is well, you know, new depending on your audience, um, still being adopted

669
00:40:24,580 --> 00:40:25,600
on that scale.

670
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:27,640
Yeah, I'll have to check that out.

671
00:40:27,660 --> 00:40:29,600
Cause I mean, all the way back to our discussion, right?

672
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,180
Like looking at, I guess it's a, uh, here, correct me where I get this wrong, but it is a

673
00:40:34,180 --> 00:40:38,240
trailing indicator and, you know, something that's happening in the, in the past of

674
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:44,080
basically to look at what management companies are doing like new relic and others.

675
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,340
Like it's a good indication of the, this types of it being used.

676
00:40:48,420 --> 00:40:53,800
It sounds ridiculous to say it out loud, but you know, it's, it's, you generally manage

677
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,000
some type of it that you use, hopefully.

678
00:40:57,420 --> 00:41:01,900
And so to see what that breakout is, it gives you a good indication of like on-premise versus

679
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:04,380
public cloud or what database or this, that, or the other.

680
00:41:04,380 --> 00:41:08,320
And new relics have been around long enough that they probably have, I mean, they're not

681
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,920
like a custom built Kubernetes observability startup.

682
00:41:12,220 --> 00:41:15,060
They, they, they aspire to manage everything.

683
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,380
So they have the, uh, the full gamut there.

684
00:41:17,540 --> 00:41:23,960
Well, uh, if you want to find links to everything we went over, you can go to tanzutalk.com and

685
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,700
sadly you will have to find this episode.

686
00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:31,400
But if you're really interested, I, I, I wager you won't be listening to this six months or

687
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:32,540
two years into the future.

688
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:36,640
So if you go there within this week, you'll probably find it on the top and you can click

689
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:44,960
on it, uh, you know, which seems easy to do, but also, uh, you want to tell people about

690
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,420
a conference we have coming up, Ben?

691
00:41:46,660 --> 00:41:48,360
How, how would you describe this thing?

692
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,460
We have December 6th to 8th in San Francisco.

693
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:52,440
What's going on there?

694
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,740
Uh, six to eight in San Francisco.

695
00:41:55,740 --> 00:41:56,700
Is this December?

696
00:41:56,820 --> 00:41:56,980
Sorry.

697
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:58,040
Did you say December?

698
00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:58,440
Yes.

699
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,860
I thought I was going to challenge you to pick the month.

700
00:42:01,340 --> 00:42:03,400
This is the SpringOne, right?

701
00:42:03,660 --> 00:42:04,220
That's right.

702
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:05,040
You got it.

703
00:42:05,300 --> 00:42:05,960
SpringOne.

704
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:06,440
Yes.

705
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,000
Coming back in person.

706
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:09,600
Holy in person event.

707
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:10,820
I understand this year.

708
00:42:10,820 --> 00:42:13,820
And, uh, we'll be at the Moscone center in San Francisco.

709
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:19,920
Uh, whole bunch of interesting, uh, talks going to be there and speakers going to be there.

710
00:42:20,300 --> 00:42:22,720
And, uh, yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun.

711
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:27,140
And I believe it's possible to get a discount on your ticket, right?

712
00:42:27,140 --> 00:42:27,420
Coté?

713
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:28,480
That's right.

714
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:34,660
If you use the code Coté 200, it will get you a mysterious amount of money off of your registration.

715
00:42:34,660 --> 00:42:39,320
You'll have to go fill out the registration and put in the code Coté, C O T E 200.

716
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,020
And you can then see how much of a discount that you get.

717
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,160
It's a, it's a fun little game you can play.

718
00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:47,220
Uh, hopefully it shouldn't be missed.

719
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,560
The, the, the keynotes are always brilliant.

720
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:55,980
You hear from some of the best folks in the, in the software industry who are using, uh, spring and anger.

721
00:42:55,980 --> 00:43:04,100
I remember a few years ago, for example, it was, um, uh, Blizzard, you know, the games folks were on the main stage, which was, which was really cool.

722
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,120
Uh, so yeah, don't miss it.

723
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:13,280
And also the, the after parties and the events that go around, around the same time are also brilliant, you know, really, really good.

724
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:14,960
So yeah, sign up, do it.

725
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:21,760
And I, we're, we're, we're planning a, uh, podcasting and streaming booth that we're going to have booth is at, let's say area.

726
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,800
And so I think we'll have some Tansu talk stuff done live from the floor.

727
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,900
I mean, hopefully it'll be on the floor, not levitating somewhere.

728
00:43:29,260 --> 00:43:31,620
Uh, so we'll, we'll, uh, we'll figure that out.

729
00:43:32,020 --> 00:43:37,820
Well, uh, well, I've just got to say, I thought you were going to ask me about VMware Explore Europe.

730
00:43:38,060 --> 00:43:38,560
Oh yeah.

731
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,480
That's the first time that Explore is coming to Europe.

732
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,160
We've never had Explore in Europe before.

733
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:49,520
So don't miss that that's, uh, November 6th through 10th, right?

734
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,660
No, 7th through 10th, 10th, maybe.

735
00:43:52,020 --> 00:43:55,440
Um, yes, uh, Barcelona and, uh, I'll be there.

736
00:43:55,540 --> 00:43:56,580
Coté, you're going to be there.

737
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,440
So yeah, don't miss that either.

738
00:43:58,540 --> 00:44:10,920
That's, uh, you know, a different sort of thing, I guess, you know, it's a broader sort of set of, uh, of use cases being discussed, but we'll have lots of customers, lots of partners, loads of interesting stories and topics.

739
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:19,720
I think, uh, if you come down to the stand, you'll be able to certainly meet me and, uh, possibly you'll even see a beardy Coté wandering around.

740
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:21,400
Definitely.

741
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:29,380
And, you know, it'll be great because, uh, you know, if you're interested in the Tanzu application platform, it's a great place to get all the tapas that you want.

742
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:36,900
You can, you can definitely, uh, uh, that was, that's my joke for the episode and we should end before I make any other terrible ones.

743
00:44:37,820 --> 00:44:45,460
Well, if you want to get the show notes for this episode, like I said, you can go to tanzutalk.com and, uh, remember you should definitely subscribe to this podcast.

744
00:44:45,460 --> 00:44:48,760
And even if you don't want to listen to it, you can subscribe to it.

745
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:56,760
Find all the podcast downloading devices in your house from your, your loved ones, your enemies, your children, open up the podcast app and subscribe to it.

746
00:44:56,860 --> 00:44:58,020
You can set it up to auto delete.

747
00:44:58,060 --> 00:45:00,280
It needs to download the whole episode every week.

748
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:00,800
Doesn't matter.

749
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,580
But that's, uh, that's what I recommend for maximum enjoyment in life.

750
00:45:04,660 --> 00:45:07,700
And with that, we'll see everyone, uh, you know, next time.

751
00:45:07,980 --> 00:45:08,520
Bye bye.

752
00:45:09,260 --> 00:45:09,740
Bye.

753
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:10,360
Bye.