1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,660 Hey everyone, it's Coté again. This week we have another interview from VMware Explore 2 00:00:03,660 --> 00:00:09,440 2022. We've got DIMMs. And in this episode, we talk all about how the CNCF, the foundation 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:13,640 around Kubernetes, how it operates and runs, how the various special interest groups or 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,740 SIGs work, and some lessons learned from previous communities and, you know, things that they're 5 00:00:17,740 --> 00:00:21,920 up to. So if you wonder how the open source world of Kubernetes runs, take a listen to 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:27,480 this interview. And hopefully next week we'll be back with our news format and an interview 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,340 as well. But before we go over that, why don't you go check out the conference we have coming 8 00:00:31,340 --> 00:00:36,340 up December 6th to 8th, SpringOne. If you go to spring1.io, you can check out what we've got 9 00:00:36,340 --> 00:00:39,880 going on there, the speakers. There's going to be a lot of great stuff going over software 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:44,060 development from Java and .NET, probably a little bit ago, just the kind of stuff programmers 11 00:00:44,060 --> 00:00:47,920 would be interested, but also things for the platform engineers and DevOps, kind of cloud 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,500 people there, all the way up to the enterprise architect and executive level of people talking 13 00:00:52,500 --> 00:00:56,300 about how they're getting better at doing software practices and things like that. A lot of the 14 00:00:56,300 --> 00:01:01,360 stuff we talk about here on the podcast. Anyways, when you go to spring1.io, when you register, 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:08,200 which I'm sure you will, you can use the code COTE200 to get $200 off. That's COTE200, C-O-T-E-200. 16 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,060 And with that, enjoy this interview. 17 00:01:10,060 --> 00:01:16,400 Like all of us, we've been around for a while, I'm assuming, and seen many iterations of foundations 18 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:22,300 and things like that. And I think digging into the operational stuff is actually interesting 19 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:27,360 to see how a foundation works. And then going up higher, right? Like the first thing I was interested 20 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:32,420 talking about is like, what do you think like the Kubernetes foundation or, you know, not 21 00:01:32,420 --> 00:01:39,260 the CNCF, whatever, like has like learned about incrementally improving how foundations work, 22 00:01:39,260 --> 00:01:43,420 right? Like, like what's kind of the new, you know, I mean, just to kind of explain the context, 23 00:01:43,420 --> 00:01:50,420 right? So I think the furthest back foundation I can remember is like the ASF, right? And then, you know, 24 00:01:50,420 --> 00:01:55,480 Eclipse was after that and then OpenStack and there's many other ones. And each, 25 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,480 each of them kind of like builds on the one past it. So I'm curious, like when you look at, 26 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:06,180 at, you know, the, the CNCF and Kubernetes work, like what's, as y'all are on the board, 27 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:10,480 it looks like, what's like, ah, here's a new thing. That's going to be awesome that we're going to do. 28 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:17,140 Oh, that, that's funny that you ask that. Um, so there's a bunch of us who float between the 29 00:02:17,140 --> 00:02:23,880 foundations, right? Like we started work in Apache software foundation and then we moved on to, 30 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:29,140 you know, I've, I've done some work in Eclipse foundation as well, but more, uh, in the OpenStack 31 00:02:29,140 --> 00:02:35,620 foundation. Um, so, and we talk to each other all the time. Um, you know, so, uh, we keep asking each 32 00:02:35,620 --> 00:02:40,420 other, Hey, uh, what is the new thing that you're trying? Um, you know, looks like we need people, 33 00:02:40,420 --> 00:02:46,600 in, um, testing or we need, uh, to set up some infrastructure for testing, right? What did you 34 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,960 do? How did you do it? And what worked, what didn't work? Yeah. And, and, and to interrupt you, 35 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:57,120 that seems like one of the major, whatever, uh, innovations of the OpenStack foundation is that 36 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:03,020 like this testing and performance thing is kind of a big deal. We literally picked it from them. 37 00:03:03,020 --> 00:03:10,360 Uh, and in fact, when I started working at CNCF and Kubernetes community, I was known as the 38 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:15,640 OpenStack guy, but no longer, right? Right, right, right. I'm the Kubernetes guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 39 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:20,900 So, you know, we, we tend to embrace the people as they come in as well. Uh, right. So, uh, 40 00:03:20,900 --> 00:03:25,680 so, so like, like what's, what's a practice that you think is kind of like a incremental improvement 41 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:31,380 in the foundation world that, that, that y'all are doing? Um, so right now we are all talking 42 00:03:31,380 --> 00:03:39,580 about sustainability. How do we make sure that, uh, things are there for the longer run? Right. Um, because as you know, 43 00:03:39,580 --> 00:03:46,720 um, you know, um, you know, Kubernetes is, has a few years under its belt and now we have to figure out, 44 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:52,260 like, how do we make sure that, uh, it works for people who are not nine to five on the west coast 45 00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:59,140 and it should work for people across the globe and it should work for people who are, um, you know, 46 00:03:59,140 --> 00:04:04,540 working part time, um, who are, who are students, um, who want to contribute. Um, you know, 47 00:04:04,540 --> 00:04:10,540 I joke about saying in, in, in, in a year or so, uh, Kubernetes is going to be the, uh, 48 00:04:10,540 --> 00:04:13,680 a code base, which has a no spelling errors and grammar errors. 49 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:25,200 So I w I want to challenge this a little bit. Okay. So sustainability, right. That can lead to a lot of 50 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:33,820 mediocrity too, can it? And how do you continue to take risks that are really important and making 51 00:04:33,820 --> 00:04:40,060 decisions that are really important because, yep, you know, you could like have a lawn and like, 52 00:04:40,060 --> 00:04:47,260 you like put fertilizer on that lawn all the time and like, but, but someday, like you may have to 53 00:04:47,260 --> 00:04:52,860 change it up. You may have to dig that lawn up. You may have to put in some bushes. Absolutely. So, 54 00:04:52,860 --> 00:04:58,780 uh, the way we do it is, uh, through controlled experiment, experimentation. Uh, and I'll give you 55 00:04:58,780 --> 00:05:05,740 one example of how we do that. Uh, right. So, uh, you know, uh, like two years ago, there was a group 56 00:05:05,740 --> 00:05:10,860 of, uh, folks, uh, in the community that were interested in like, how does, how do we do batch 57 00:05:10,860 --> 00:05:18,780 processing, right? Like how do I schedule if I want to have a ML or a job, which needs like exactly 25 58 00:05:18,780 --> 00:05:25,420 pods, um, you know, spread across the nodes, uh, how do I, and it's a binary thing. You do all 25 or you 59 00:05:25,420 --> 00:05:31,180 don't do any of them, right? So, uh, they were interested in that kind of challenge and we kind of 60 00:05:31,180 --> 00:05:37,420 added the scheduler extensions to, you know, give them, hey, go forth and experiment and come back to us 61 00:05:37,420 --> 00:05:44,860 with, uh, your learnings. Now they have actually, it ended up, uh, uh, adding projects like Volcano 62 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:51,500 and a few other, um, uh, things, right? Yeah. Now they are coming back to us to say, hey, uh, 63 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:57,980 we want to have a work group in Kubernetes and a work group in CNCF level so that we, now we know 64 00:05:58,700 --> 00:06:03,980 what to do and how to do it right. What is the minimum set of things that we need in the base layer 65 00:06:03,980 --> 00:06:11,500 in Kubernetes itself? And then, okay. Okay. So what, so let's say, let's take this to another level then. 66 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:19,820 So what if there are like real poor decisions maybe that were made based on a set of precedents 67 00:06:20,380 --> 00:06:28,540 that really had an impact on the core? I can give you two. Um, one is, uh, we recently, 68 00:06:28,540 --> 00:06:34,460 we are in the process of deprecating what we call pod security policy and the other one is, uh, completely 69 00:06:34,460 --> 00:06:41,740 removing Docker shim, uh, that we had within, um, you know, the Kubernetes repository. Um, those were 70 00:06:41,740 --> 00:06:49,020 two big mistakes, uh, in terms of the Docker shim, it slowed us a lot. Um, especially because we ended 71 00:06:49,020 --> 00:06:53,660 up defining the CRI extensions and we still had this piece of code that was within the Kubernetes 72 00:06:53,660 --> 00:06:58,780 community and it was slowing, uh, the work that was being done by signal in terms of adding new features. 73 00:06:58,780 --> 00:07:05,340 So we had to get rid of it. The pod security policy was really hard for people to use. So we ended up 74 00:07:05,340 --> 00:07:12,460 redesigning, uh, a new set of, uh, resources that, that is easier for people to understand. Like we 75 00:07:12,460 --> 00:07:18,860 wanted to make sure that the 80% of the use cases are covered with the simple stuff instead of somebody 76 00:07:18,860 --> 00:07:24,140 using a really complicated pod security policy. They have something easier to work with. So, 77 00:07:24,940 --> 00:07:32,300 so, and then my last question for, for, for this part of the show. Okay. Um, so what are some of the 78 00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:39,740 issues in the core right now that are just not working like pod security policy? They're always going to 79 00:07:39,740 --> 00:07:49,580 come up. Yeah. Um, so, so this is one of the reasons why we did the annual, uh, review. Uh, we have, uh, 80 00:07:49,580 --> 00:07:56,940 sent, we have, this is the second time we did the annual review. Uh, and we have enumerated a list of 81 00:07:56,940 --> 00:08:02,220 problems that are there in the community, whether it is people oriented, whether it is technology oriented 82 00:08:02,220 --> 00:08:08,300 and things like that. Um, and you, you, you, when you read that, you will get a sense of like, hey, 83 00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:14,620 here is where we need to invest in. And, uh, here is where we need help. Um, so simplest of things, 84 00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:21,500 uh, testing, right? What we have found is, um, there are people who come to different SIGs and 85 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:26,540 want to work in those SIGs and want to do well in those SIGs. But what we are losing in the process 86 00:08:26,540 --> 00:08:32,060 is we don't have people who can work across the SIGs, right? So when we run into flakiness in the CI 87 00:08:32,060 --> 00:08:37,020 jobs, we don't know who to talk to, right? And the number of people who can understand things that 88 00:08:37,020 --> 00:08:43,340 happen, uh, across the SIGs is very few. And that is what we need investment in. And we have to make 89 00:08:43,340 --> 00:08:50,780 things better, easier. Uh, you know, in fact, this 125 release was the release where we had the least 90 00:08:50,780 --> 00:08:56,060 amount of flakiness. So the CA signals that we were getting out of the SIG release folks was, 91 00:08:56,060 --> 00:09:01,260 you know, the green thumbs up all the time. And we were very happy. Uh, we've been struggling with a 92 00:09:01,260 --> 00:09:08,220 flakiness in the CI jobs and people just end up doing a retest of all the jobs. And frankly, 93 00:09:08,220 --> 00:09:14,380 that costs more money, right? Like if you have a single PR and it runs a set of jobs and if it passes, 94 00:09:15,260 --> 00:09:19,660 you know, you know, you have good signal. But if you have to retest 100, uh, you know, 10 times, 95 00:09:19,660 --> 00:09:25,980 then you're essentially increasing the cost of your CI for, for, you need some anti flakiness, 96 00:09:25,980 --> 00:09:31,260 like some, uh, some, I don't know, anti dandruff shampoo for the organization. Yeah. That's tragic. 97 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:35,100 That's what comes to mind. But so, you know, you covered a little bit and we've talked a little bit 98 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:41,980 about, um, introducing new things into the overall project. And, you know, we, we talked a couple days 99 00:09:41,980 --> 00:09:46,940 ago with, uh, Lucas from, uh, loft. And so one of the discussions we had with him is like, you know, 100 00:09:47,580 --> 00:09:52,620 between the, the more open source community stuff that you do. And then as you go up into loft, 101 00:09:52,620 --> 00:09:57,260 like what you do, like one of the, one of the things I think we're interested in is where is that 102 00:09:57,260 --> 00:10:03,020 cut line of like, we're not going to do that then. And, and, or, or to put it in a more positive way, 103 00:10:03,020 --> 00:10:07,260 that's a great thing for someone to add to the community on their own, the overall ecosystem, 104 00:10:07,260 --> 00:10:11,740 I'll use that word. Right. And so like, and, and the reason I asked that, well, not, I mean, 105 00:10:11,740 --> 00:10:17,420 I'm curious, but you know, especially us being a VMware, like, and everyone else is interested in 106 00:10:17,420 --> 00:10:22,700 like improving it for developers. Yeah. And so there must be a line somewhere where, where you're like, 107 00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:29,020 well, we're not going to do actual code stuff. So like, but where is that level where you feel like 108 00:10:29,020 --> 00:10:34,620 the, the kind of the CNCF and the Kubernetes ecosystem is like, yeah, we don't really do that. 109 00:10:34,620 --> 00:10:40,860 Like that's, that's someone else's thing. Yeah. Um, so I'll give you one example where, uh, 110 00:10:40,860 --> 00:10:48,220 we have a, a line that we have not crossed yet, which is, um, how do you stitch multiple, um, 111 00:10:48,220 --> 00:10:53,420 Kubernetes clusters together? All right. That's one example where, uh, people are innovating 112 00:10:53,420 --> 00:10:58,060 in the ecosystem. There are startups, there are different projects. Loft has the V cluster thing, 113 00:10:58,060 --> 00:11:05,420 for example, right. Um, so we have, we did two experiments in that area, but we ended up 114 00:11:06,140 --> 00:11:11,900 giving up on that idea. For example, we did a cube fed one and cube fed two, um, 115 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:18,620 Kubernetes Federation literally. And, uh, those were experiments that we tried, but we did not bake 116 00:11:18,620 --> 00:11:25,100 those things into the Kubernetes code base itself. Right. We kept it outside, uh, but we were innovating, 117 00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:30,460 we were trying something out and we didn't like what we saw and we kind of like gave up on it. So, 118 00:11:30,460 --> 00:11:35,980 uh, if. Why'd you give up on it? Uh, we, because we didn't like the APIs, 119 00:11:35,980 --> 00:11:41,020 we didn't like the way it worked. So, uh, what did you not, I, I, I keep digging a little bit. 120 00:11:41,020 --> 00:11:51,100 What did you not like about the APIs? Uh, so, uh, what, uh, like, QFed V1, right. Um, that was a kind 121 00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:58,940 of like, uh, I know Solomon is here. Uh, so, uh, it was like Swarm, right. Uh, you know, you have the 122 00:11:58,940 --> 00:12:04,220 same API, but underneath you have something else. Uh, so that, that was one experiment that we ended up 123 00:12:04,220 --> 00:12:10,460 trying. And, you know, that was not a good choice for us. So we said, okay, fine. Let's remove that. Let's try 124 00:12:10,460 --> 00:12:16,860 QFed V2 where we'll re-imagine the APIs. Uh, but that didn't seem enough for us. And no, 125 00:12:17,740 --> 00:12:23,660 the way we end up figuring these, this out is nobody's using it, right. Uh, there's very few 126 00:12:23,660 --> 00:12:28,220 people using it and we are not getting enough feedback from the people saying, hey, we are using 127 00:12:28,220 --> 00:12:34,620 it. Uh, you know, if you can make this small thing better than, you know, if we don't have that feedback 128 00:12:34,620 --> 00:12:41,420 loop coming in from the community, then it means that it's not of much value to, uh, people in the 129 00:12:41,420 --> 00:12:47,180 community and we stop doing, uh, you know, things where, uh, hey, one vendor is driving it and so we 130 00:12:47,180 --> 00:12:53,580 are adding some code and then, uh, you know, but if, if you see it's a dead end, then we stop, we deprecate, 131 00:12:53,580 --> 00:13:01,340 and we get it off it in a, uh, new release. So like another, another topic that, um, you know, 132 00:13:01,340 --> 00:13:07,340 I, I talk with analysts and press and, and users, uh, companies that use Kubernetes and like maybe, 133 00:13:07,340 --> 00:13:11,660 maybe it's because I'm from VMware, but they always like to throw out like lock-in and things like 134 00:13:11,660 --> 00:13:18,300 that. And, you know, like how like, like that is like, if we, we want to make sure that we have a, 135 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:23,580 you know, you, you probably remember Simon Phipps, not that he's gone, but like, yeah, he had this great 136 00:13:23,580 --> 00:13:28,060 phrase, the freedom to leave. Like, that's really what, you know, his theory was, that's really what 137 00:13:28,060 --> 00:13:36,300 people are looking for, uh, with things. And like, um, I mean, how at a, at a foundation level, like, how are 138 00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:41,020 y'all thinking through, like, we want to make sure that we have that freedom to leave, that like, 139 00:13:41,020 --> 00:13:44,940 like, like, how do you engineer that into? Cause I mean, you know, obviously it's like, oh, 140 00:13:44,940 --> 00:13:49,580 it's a source, right. But like, there, there must be a lot more thinking put into it as far as the 141 00:13:49,580 --> 00:13:55,260 entire ecosystem and how, how, uh, it all works. Right. Uh, you know, some of the obvious answers 142 00:13:55,260 --> 00:14:01,580 there is like, we make sure it's Apache license. Right. Right. Um, and one example of freedom to live 143 00:14:01,580 --> 00:14:10,380 is, um, you know, Grafana labs, they were working on a project called cortex, uh, in, in the community. And, uh, they said, okay, we are 144 00:14:10,380 --> 00:14:16,780 not getting the kind of engagement that we are getting from, uh, that we need. Uh, and, uh, we are 145 00:14:16,780 --> 00:14:22,140 trying, we are trying to do all the engineering by ourselves. So, you know, out we go. Right. Uh, 146 00:14:22,140 --> 00:14:29,100 so they ended up doing, uh, open source, single vendor open source, uh, called me, my mirror or me mirror. 147 00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:34,860 I don't know exactly how to pronounce it. So, you know, now they are off doing their own thing. And that's 148 00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:40,140 the same for anything that I've listed out as extensions, right? Like, um, you know, I, uh, 149 00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:46,780 listed a whole bunch of, uh, extensions, uh, and be like, take the CNI, for example, or the CSI. 150 00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:51,500 How many windows do we have for CSI? How many windows do we have for the CNI? Right? A lot of them. 151 00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:56,140 Yeah, exactly. And those kinds of things were baked into Kubernetes right at the beginning. And then we 152 00:14:56,140 --> 00:15:01,820 kind of like kick them out saying, hey, go explore, uh, uh, the, the things that you want to do. And 153 00:15:01,820 --> 00:15:07,340 you don't have to talk to us. You don't even have to like, you know, uh, get, uh, unless you run into 154 00:15:07,340 --> 00:15:12,460 a problem, you don't even have to do anything, uh, with us. And you can innovate on your own. Right? 155 00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:19,660 Uh, so you have Andrea from VMware. We have, uh, Cilium. We have, you know, so many other, uh, projects. Uh, 156 00:15:19,660 --> 00:15:25,900 we works had a project too, right? Like, so we've met, um, so, uh, that is an example of like how we 157 00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:32,540 are un, un blocking the innovation, um, you know, in the community. So I just have a last question for 158 00:15:32,540 --> 00:15:39,260 myself that I'm curious about. What gets you so excited about the work that you do? What is it that 159 00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:46,780 impassions you to talk, get up there and like give this very thorough and deep explanation of SIGs? Uh, 160 00:15:46,780 --> 00:15:53,580 the people, right? Uh, I look forward to talking to, uh, all the friends that I made over the years, 161 00:15:53,580 --> 00:15:57,820 right? Uh, and it's not even necessary that they are doing things with me right now. 162 00:15:57,820 --> 00:16:03,900 You know, uh, the other day I was talking to Henry Handel from AWS, right? And, uh, the last time I 163 00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:08,380 spoke to him was like 15 years ago, but it felt like yesterday that I talked to him, right? So it is 164 00:16:08,380 --> 00:16:14,700 the people, uh, that bring you back to the work and it's the P like software happens when people get 165 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:21,180 together, right? Uh, so, uh, and sometimes I also think that the people problems are more difficult 166 00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:25,980 than the software problems as well. Uh, because wearing the different community hats, we've seen, 167 00:16:25,980 --> 00:16:32,620 you know, issues, uh, uh, people related to people and those are harder to solve, uh, than, you know, 168 00:16:32,620 --> 00:16:41,820 the software stuff. So it is, uh, essentially, you know, the people that end up making things good for me. 169 00:16:41,820 --> 00:16:46,140 So you, you probably know the dates better than me, so you can fill it in, but, uh, KubeCon North 170 00:16:46,140 --> 00:16:51,660 America is coming up this in October. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good enough. Yeah. Yeah. Third week, 171 00:16:51,660 --> 00:16:57,420 I think. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, over, over recent years, like that conference has grown incredibly, 172 00:16:57,420 --> 00:17:04,140 I mean, it's over 10,000 people now, something like that. And, and so for people who want to go to that, 173 00:17:04,140 --> 00:17:09,420 what's your advice for like, you know, you can't talk to 10,000 people or like go to all the sessions, 174 00:17:09,420 --> 00:17:14,460 like, right, like how, how should someone like plan out having a good, useful time at that, 175 00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:20,780 that, that event at that scale? Um, so, uh, what I would try to figure out is like, 176 00:17:20,780 --> 00:17:26,780 what do you want out of it? Right. Um, so, uh, for example, when I go to KubeCon, 177 00:17:27,340 --> 00:17:32,300 I go there to meet my friends, right? Like I'm not really interested in the sessions as such, 178 00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:37,900 but I go there so that I, you know, we work with, uh, each other for, you know, for a very long time. 179 00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:42,540 It's like a couple of times a year when we can actually get together. Right. So that is important 180 00:17:42,540 --> 00:17:48,620 to me. Um, but you know, for example, uh, we coach and mentor, uh, students that are coming to, um, 181 00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:54,700 KubeCon and we actually have, uh, scholarships for people to come as well. What I tell them is like, 182 00:17:54,700 --> 00:18:02,620 you know, plan ahead, um, figure out which sessions you want to go to, uh, figure out who 183 00:18:02,620 --> 00:18:09,180 do you want to talk to, make an effort and come up with a topic that you can talk to somebody about 184 00:18:09,180 --> 00:18:13,740 so that you can have a conversation and they will remember you rather than, uh, you know, 185 00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:18,940 just, uh, doing a handshake and walking away. Like you're not going to remember, uh, the face or the 186 00:18:18,940 --> 00:18:24,140 name, but if you talked about something, then you'll say, okay, I remember that guy because, 187 00:18:24,140 --> 00:18:29,020 or that girl, because, you know, uh, we talked about, you know, how to do something better in this 188 00:18:29,020 --> 00:18:34,860 part of the code base. And that becomes something that you can follow on once you go back from 189 00:18:34,860 --> 00:18:38,540 KubeCon. Totally. So here's another thing that I would ask. 190 00:18:41,260 --> 00:18:46,940 What do you want to know? What are you trying to learn? So then what do you ask? What are those 191 00:18:46,940 --> 00:18:52,620 questions that you want to ask people? Yeah. Like write those questions down. Yeah. Because then you 192 00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:56,860 can find those, then you can talk to those people. Yeah. And when you're talking to people, you might just 193 00:18:56,860 --> 00:19:01,980 think of a question. Yes. It's that preparation. There's also pancakes apparently at the time. Oh, 194 00:19:01,980 --> 00:19:07,260 yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. This is the pro advice from the journalist. Yeah. Doing your prep work. 195 00:19:07,260 --> 00:19:10,380 Thank you. Knowing what you want to talk about. Thank you very much, Michael. I think, you know, 196 00:19:10,380 --> 00:19:14,700 I haven't really like narrow, thought about that as, as an aspect. It's sort of like organically 197 00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:19,740 evolved if you go to enough conferences, but that is a good idea of, I like your idea of people 198 00:19:19,740 --> 00:19:25,900 remember a topic. Yes. Chances are they remember a topic more than a person. Right. For better or worse. 199 00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:31,100 Yeah. But, but that is, that is good to kind of prep out. Like, here are things I want to talk about 200 00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:35,100 and find out about and the specific questions that I ask people because otherwise you just kind of ad 201 00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:40,540 hoc float around. Right. With, with things. Yeah. So that, it's almost like, and if you have the, 202 00:19:41,340 --> 00:19:50,460 and if you have the, you know, the interest, write something down, like write a, write a blog post, even, 203 00:19:50,460 --> 00:19:56,940 you know, write a, write a series of tweets saying, these are the questions I have, you know, 204 00:19:56,940 --> 00:20:01,740 I'm looking to try to get these questions. So that's a lot of nice prep work you can do beforehand. 205 00:20:01,740 --> 00:20:06,540 And it helps you kind of with your profile. Not everyone wants to do that, but it can be a way. 206 00:20:06,540 --> 00:20:09,420 Yeah. Do it on the flight over. I mean, you know, you've probably seen. 207 00:20:09,420 --> 00:20:10,620 Yeah. Yeah. The flight. The flight. 208 00:20:10,620 --> 00:20:13,260 Are you really going to watch another Marvel movie? Like what, what? 209 00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:15,260 No. Yes. 210 00:20:15,260 --> 00:20:19,100 All right. Well, great. It was, it was, it was really, it was really fun talking with you and getting that, 211 00:20:19,100 --> 00:20:23,580 that, that kind of overview of the, uh, the internal workings of, of how things float around there. 212 00:20:23,580 --> 00:20:26,540 So thank you, Michael. Yeah. Well, we'll, we'll see you around. 213 00:20:26,540 --> 00:20:29,580 Thank you, Alex. You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks. 214 00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:30,380 Bye. Bye. Bye. 215 00:20:35,020 --> 00:20:38,940 Well, I hope you enjoyed that. If you want to get the show notes for this episode and find out how to 216 00:20:38,940 --> 00:20:44,220 subscribe to Tanzu Talk as a whole, you can go to TanzuTalk.com. 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It's going to be in San Francisco. 224 00:21:17,580 --> 00:21:22,860 And if you go to spring1.io, you can check it out, look at the speakers and the talks that we have. 225 00:21:22,860 --> 00:21:28,140 It should all be pretty fun. So if you like it, when you go to spring1.io, you can register. And if you 226 00:21:28,140 --> 00:21:36,460 use the code COTE200, you can get, that's right, $200 off your registration with the code COTE200. 227 00:21:36,460 --> 00:21:41,500 And with that, that's it this week for Tanzu Talk. And we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye.