1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,320 Hello, everyone. This is Coté. This episode, I've got a discussion that my friend Barton George and 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:10,220 I had after I gave a keynote at DevOps Days Dallas, the new role that operations has in supporting 3 00:00:10,220 --> 00:00:14,380 application developers, you know, building a platform on top of Kubernetes. But before we 4 00:00:14,380 --> 00:00:18,320 get to that, I want you to go to spring.io and check out the conference that we have coming up 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:23,940 December 6th to 8th, 2022. In case you're listening to this in the future, I hope it's 6 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:28,440 turned out well for my sake and yours as well. Anyhow, if you go to spring1.io, you can check 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,540 out the talks we have there from application development in the Java, .NET, and other world 8 00:00:32,540 --> 00:00:37,520 doing things like DevOps and SRE operation stuff, and then agile software development and case 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,880 studies of how large organizations have succeeded at it, maybe even some of how they failed. You 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,840 know, there's plenty of Kubernetes stuff if you're into that area. Anyhow, go to spring1.io and check 11 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:53,440 it out. And when you register, you can use the code KOTE200, that's C-O-T-E-2-0-0, to get, 12 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,420 you guessed it, $200 off registration. Back to the discussion. So Barton and I, 13 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,320 had just started talking about a summary of the talk that I have. And as you'll see, 14 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,440 we move into kind of thinking about what it means as operation staff to support application 15 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:11,040 developers and how they can start thinking about their new customers and working best for them. 16 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:12,000 Developers. 17 00:01:12,540 --> 00:01:18,020 I was going over a talk about how when it comes to the stacks of the platforms that we use to 18 00:01:18,020 --> 00:01:25,100 run the software that organizations build and run, their software, that we tend to sort of like 19 00:01:25,100 --> 00:01:30,340 rebuild the stack every five to ten years or so. And the premise was that we're at the beginning of 20 00:01:30,340 --> 00:01:35,980 rebuilding the stack with Kubernetes and things like that. And that it was kind of going over like, 21 00:01:35,980 --> 00:01:39,980 so we're going to be rebuilding our stack. What can we learn from the past times that we have 22 00:01:39,980 --> 00:01:45,740 rebuilt it? Ways that, kind of like the way that you develop that stack out, the way that you run it, 23 00:01:45,740 --> 00:01:51,100 kind of the frame of mind that you have so that we don't have to like reinvent everything. And the 24 00:01:51,100 --> 00:01:55,740 reinventing everything is not so bad. It's more, we don't have to lose time and make the mistakes. We 25 00:01:55,740 --> 00:02:01,420 can kind of, instead of just completely getting rid of everything and starting afresh, we can 26 00:02:01,420 --> 00:02:07,820 incrementally improve from where we are and help things out. And I'm remembering that part that I 27 00:02:07,820 --> 00:02:13,340 left off. How did I skip this slide? I wasn't taking it out. I had a whole jag about buy mobile IT in there. 28 00:02:13,340 --> 00:02:19,180 I mean, that was Gardner. I need to see that. That was Gardner. Okay. Now I forget. I wonder what 29 00:02:19,180 --> 00:02:23,660 happened to that slide. I better go look. And because I might have left it in Detroit. But 30 00:02:23,660 --> 00:02:28,220 then, but basically the idea that you had the fast part of the company, you also had the 31 00:02:28,220 --> 00:02:32,300 Right, right, right. The lagging part of the company. Right. And neither the twine shall meet. 32 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:37,100 Yeah. And that, that was, I mean, this is a very niche thing that doesn't exist to go into right away 33 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:42,460 here. But that was the point that I was trying to make is that, uh, uh, you know, it's, it's very 34 00:02:42,460 --> 00:02:48,140 easy as, as technology people, especially ones at a conference to like, be focused on this interesting 35 00:02:48,140 --> 00:02:53,900 new thing. That's great. And just sort of like neglect all the stuff that exists and, and, uh, 36 00:02:53,900 --> 00:02:59,980 and not really like try to bring everyone, uh, alone necessarily. And also like any chance I 37 00:02:59,980 --> 00:03:05,020 get to point out the madness several years ago, that was this whole bimodal, like scruffle. 38 00:03:05,020 --> 00:03:09,660 Like I'm pretty sure most of the people complaining about it, you know, to spend the $3,000 to 39 00:03:09,660 --> 00:03:14,780 read the garden PDFs. And, uh, I don't know, it's one of those typical things of like, no one did 40 00:03:14,780 --> 00:03:20,460 the news story a year later. Well, Matt, let's, let's, let's move on to it. If you had some advice 41 00:03:20,460 --> 00:03:25,820 to give folks who were now trying to make this transition in this new space, that you say, 42 00:03:25,820 --> 00:03:30,780 we've got the Kubernetes, uh, that for some people, uh, they have started implementing some 43 00:03:30,780 --> 00:03:35,420 people, of course, like Google, they, they've been implementing it. Um, what would you, 44 00:03:35,420 --> 00:03:38,940 how would you tell people to look at it? And what should they be thinking about? 45 00:03:38,940 --> 00:03:42,220 Well, I think, I think that the primary thing, especially if you're used to like, 46 00:03:42,220 --> 00:03:48,380 uh, traditional is the wrong word, the current dominant way of thinking about operations and 47 00:03:48,380 --> 00:03:53,660 infrastructure, sysadmitting, whatever you want to call it. Um, you don't, when you're doing that, 48 00:03:53,660 --> 00:04:02,140 you're not really thinking so much about the, the developers, right? And, and so if you're building 49 00:04:02,140 --> 00:04:06,700 this stack out, it's, I think the first thing that is easy to overlook, just because you're not 50 00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:09,900 kind of used to thinking about this, you're doing, you're building infrastructure stuff, 51 00:04:09,900 --> 00:04:15,740 is that you're building this for developers, like they're your customer, because the reason you're 52 00:04:15,740 --> 00:04:22,300 building this Kubernetes stuff, more or less, is to run that those custom written applications that your 53 00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:30,380 organization, uh, uses. And so as you're building up this stack, you should find some of these developers 54 00:04:30,380 --> 00:04:35,740 because they are the people who are, that you're supporting and that you're, as they say, enabling. 55 00:04:35,740 --> 00:04:41,660 Right. And so I think traditionally, if you look at like, um, if you're like a virtualization 56 00:04:41,660 --> 00:04:45,980 administrator or you're a storage administrator, like you're all these operations things, like 57 00:04:47,340 --> 00:04:51,180 you're a little too far removed from the developer side of things. 58 00:04:51,180 --> 00:04:57,020 Like you may not even be building infrastructure to run custom written software. You might be running 59 00:04:57,020 --> 00:05:01,740 some off the shelf thing or a cons, as they used to say, you might be doing all this administrative 60 00:05:01,740 --> 00:05:06,460 stuff. And so you, you can't really take that attitude because then you, you don't have a customer 61 00:05:06,460 --> 00:05:11,580 that you're building this stuff. And that's, I think that's the important thing to realize is that you 62 00:05:11,580 --> 00:05:17,820 are building a platform, right? And like, you're not going to know what to build unless you know the 63 00:05:17,820 --> 00:05:23,100 customer that you're building it for. And you'll just end up building stuff you think is useful and 64 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:28,380 cool and have no validation, uh, if it's useful or not. And then you'll have a very well architected 65 00:05:28,380 --> 00:05:33,900 city that no one wants to live in. Good analogy. Well, so the other thing too, is you also become 66 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:38,940 a customer. Wouldn't you say in this new model, because you're not just building it and giving it 67 00:05:38,940 --> 00:05:43,980 then to you, you're going to be part of that same product team with the developer. Right. And that you 68 00:05:43,980 --> 00:05:50,140 have to be, you have to implement what you, you built in support of the developers. Yeah. 69 00:05:50,140 --> 00:05:56,700 That's interesting point is that when you are building up this new platform, you're going to 70 00:05:56,700 --> 00:06:02,860 have to live with it. Right. And, and so like, you're not going to have like, you know, in contrast, 71 00:06:02,860 --> 00:06:10,060 if you're using just, you know, VMware virtualization stuff, or you're using, uh, the services that you 72 00:06:10,060 --> 00:06:16,300 get in a cloud, a public cloud, like you don't really have a lot of choice in what the thing is. 73 00:06:16,300 --> 00:06:20,220 You're more learning how to use something. Whereas a lot of the people I talk with who are building up 74 00:06:20,220 --> 00:06:26,540 this platform, they're spending a lot more time customizing it to how they want to run. Right. 75 00:06:26,540 --> 00:06:30,940 So it's something they're going to have to live with afterwards. So yeah, it is important to think 76 00:06:30,940 --> 00:06:37,580 about as I'm building up this stack, how am I going to build something I want to use for the next three 77 00:06:37,580 --> 00:06:43,020 years, if not more, or how am I going to improve my resume so I can get out of here. Exactly. 78 00:06:43,020 --> 00:06:47,980 It's a bimodal thing again. There you go. That's actually what it was about. Yes. Um, 79 00:06:47,980 --> 00:06:54,540 so then you're going to then also without, besides building infrastructure that's going to satisfy 80 00:06:54,540 --> 00:06:59,580 your customers, which are the developers, and then also making it something that will be usable 81 00:06:59,580 --> 00:07:04,940 for you because you're going to have to support it. Right. You're not, you yourselves also have to 82 00:07:04,940 --> 00:07:12,780 transition to be this new, to build this new skillset to support those developers. Right. So is that going 83 00:07:12,780 --> 00:07:19,660 on in parallel? Would you need to do, would you need to transition before you, you started designing 84 00:07:19,660 --> 00:07:29,020 based on the developers needs? I think what I would say, I'm still formulating the question in my mind 85 00:07:29,020 --> 00:07:37,980 for your question is what you should start with is by creating the role of a product manager, 86 00:07:37,980 --> 00:07:45,340 which I don't, I don't think a lot of organizations have at all. Like, like in, in, in the IT world, 87 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:50,860 right? Like you more have architects, project managers, and think people who like specify 88 00:07:51,660 --> 00:07:56,940 what software is supposed to blend. Right. And then the operations layer, like, you know, we have the, 89 00:07:58,220 --> 00:08:03,020 what you do is someone specifies, tell me what you, the performance characteristics you need for this 90 00:08:03,020 --> 00:08:08,380 infrastructure, for this platform. And then tell me on the security requirements that you have. And then 91 00:08:08,380 --> 00:08:14,620 I will put together, or I lend a term, like we will put together a stack of infrastructure and the 92 00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:21,500 software above it that provide those capabilities. Right. Um, but that's not really how you product 93 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:27,420 manage something like based on what me, someone had, well, based on the capabilities that they need. 94 00:08:27,420 --> 00:08:33,420 Instead, what you do is you talk directly with your customers, your developers, and you help them 95 00:08:33,420 --> 00:08:38,380 discover like what problems they have and the best ways to solve those problems. So for example, 96 00:08:39,260 --> 00:08:44,780 like it would be easy to say, and, and not wholly incorrect, but, um, you would say like, 97 00:08:44,780 --> 00:08:48,620 oh, so we're building this platform based on Kubernetes. So we're going to build on all the storage 98 00:08:48,620 --> 00:08:52,860 and networking and the compute. And then we're going to get the clusters up and running. And it's really 99 00:08:52,860 --> 00:08:57,500 easy to stand up a cluster and put that in, put down and, and like, you know, shut down a cluster 100 00:08:57,500 --> 00:09:02,780 and it's secure and all that stuff. And then, you know, what's going to happen is that you're going 101 00:09:02,780 --> 00:09:06,780 to go to the developers, you probably haven't really talked with yet. And they're just going to be like, 102 00:09:06,780 --> 00:09:12,940 that's great. I spun up a cluster. And now I don't know if you know how software development works, 103 00:09:12,940 --> 00:09:17,180 but I got a bunch of other stuff I'm going to do. Right. And so instead, if you start with the 104 00:09:17,180 --> 00:09:22,300 developers, you'll find that they do need, uh, a place to run their stuff, you know, 105 00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:28,140 Kubernetes, uh, cursor, but they also need to be able to do, uh, they need to build, right. 106 00:09:28,140 --> 00:09:34,140 And they need to, to, to something you alluded to is the developers are going to need to know like, 107 00:09:34,140 --> 00:09:39,740 so if you want, if you, the operations people are going to support this in production, 108 00:09:39,740 --> 00:09:44,700 like, what do you want me to put in the code so you can monitor it? Like what do you, 109 00:09:44,700 --> 00:09:48,220 how do you want me to package up the software so that it's easy to diagnose? 110 00:09:48,780 --> 00:09:54,540 And what way should I architect things so that it's easy to, uh, deploy this stuff like to various 111 00:09:54,540 --> 00:09:58,940 data centers, whatever, like all these sorts of things. So the infinite loop starts in the beginning. 112 00:09:58,940 --> 00:10:01,500 Right. All right. And so that's why I was saying like, 113 00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:05,340 you should start talking with developers and realize that they're your customers, right? 114 00:10:05,340 --> 00:10:10,860 You're not just building infrastructure and capabilities that kind of map. 115 00:10:10,860 --> 00:10:15,500 Like we need this capability that matches these numbers. Like you're going to be co-developing 116 00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:18,780 this with, with developers, product managing it. 117 00:10:19,340 --> 00:10:24,860 You all go out and talk to a lot of customers. And so when, with ones you're talking to, 118 00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:29,100 you've got the, so we're talking about the operations, you're talking about the app developers, 119 00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:35,580 but then there's the common end user custom. Right. And so how, and obviously the developers 120 00:10:35,580 --> 00:10:40,860 hopefully are, are thinking directly of what they need to deliver to support the business. Right. 121 00:10:40,860 --> 00:10:45,900 What about operations? How, how should they be learning about the end customer? 122 00:10:46,860 --> 00:10:50,780 Should they be doing that directly? Because otherwise, if it goes too many layers back, 123 00:10:50,780 --> 00:10:53,420 it becomes a game of telephone. Right. 124 00:10:53,420 --> 00:10:59,900 And then it gets all, it gets distorted. So to what extent does operations 125 00:11:00,860 --> 00:11:08,940 need to directly understand the end user needs and wants? Well, I think that, 126 00:11:10,220 --> 00:11:15,980 well, I'll, I'll, I'll do it in reverse order of whenever, but like, so I think it's what operations 127 00:11:15,980 --> 00:11:22,700 to think about more is the application development organization is their customer, right? So they should 128 00:11:22,700 --> 00:11:29,580 spend most of their time working directly with the, I'll just say developers. But when I say developers, 129 00:11:29,580 --> 00:11:34,460 I mean, application developers, they, they, they should spend most of their time working with 130 00:11:34,460 --> 00:11:39,340 and talking with the developers, because that is very directly their customer. Now there are, 131 00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:45,260 aside from themselves, as you pointed out, there are, there are at least two other constituencies 132 00:11:45,260 --> 00:11:50,380 they need to talk with constituency customers, and that is the security people and the compliance people, 133 00:11:50,380 --> 00:11:55,100 right? So these are also going to be customers of theirs that they need to start consulting with. But 134 00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:59,100 that's, we're trying to keep things brief. Right. So those will be internal customers. Right, 135 00:11:59,100 --> 00:12:04,460 right, right. And so I would, I, I think this is true. I mean, I would say that for the most part, 136 00:12:04,460 --> 00:12:11,260 that's two operations to talk with. Now that said, probably, especially when you're starting, you 137 00:12:11,260 --> 00:12:19,820 should have a good idea of who the, how, who your, your organization's end users, customers are. Right. 138 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:26,140 And I would even say that maybe, like, as you have a new operations person come on, what they should 139 00:12:26,140 --> 00:12:31,660 probably do is go to those development teams and be like, Hey, whatever you're doing to talk to our 140 00:12:32,780 --> 00:12:37,740 businesses, customers, I want to do that for like a few weeks too, or like whatever. Right. And so 141 00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:44,540 like, I mean, I think, I think somehow you need to figure out like your operations people should kind 142 00:12:44,540 --> 00:12:50,620 of know what the customers do. Right. And people who work in retail and banking, well, at least 143 00:12:51,740 --> 00:12:56,300 retail banking, not to choose what we put, but like banking that you and I would use. Right. 144 00:12:57,100 --> 00:13:01,500 Like they're kind of lucky because they understand what the customers do. Right. But as you get into 145 00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:06,540 more and more exotic things and also internally facing things like, yeah, you should probably make 146 00:13:06,540 --> 00:13:11,020 sure that at least on a quarterly basis, like you check in and you understand what the customers are 147 00:13:11,020 --> 00:13:16,460 doing, but it's better to spend all your time focusing on the developers, the security, the compliance people. 148 00:13:16,460 --> 00:13:24,140 And so when you do talk to customers to add yet another constituency, you've got the business itself, 149 00:13:24,140 --> 00:13:32,860 right, is how do you see people organizing the business with the app developers with operations? 150 00:13:32,860 --> 00:13:39,100 Because in theory, business and application developers should be in lockstep. 151 00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:44,220 Lockstep. Yes. And then the operations should be supporting them. But so how do you, 152 00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:48,940 how do you see your, the customers you've talked to organizing and how would you, 153 00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:54,780 how would you advise them to organize? So I, I mean, I think there's, I don't know, 154 00:13:54,780 --> 00:13:59,980 over the years, there's never like a great helpful answer to that. Right. And, and, 155 00:13:59,980 --> 00:14:09,260 because I think you just go through cycles of like, uh, the, the chain of people and organizations 156 00:14:09,260 --> 00:14:14,860 responsible for the application that the business is using either internally facing or externally facing 157 00:14:15,420 --> 00:14:19,740 is like an external entity to the business or it's part of the business. Right. And I think, 158 00:14:20,620 --> 00:14:25,740 I mean, I don't know, this is like part of the art of product management. And I think that kind of, 159 00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:33,020 sort of like the operations people, again, that's sort of not their concern. Right. Like it's more 160 00:14:33,020 --> 00:14:38,380 of like the develop, the application team should be the one that's figuring out how to work with the 161 00:14:38,380 --> 00:14:42,780 business side. Right. Cause like, you don't, in the same way that like, I mean, let's reverse it. Right. 162 00:14:42,780 --> 00:14:49,820 Like, so let's say, uh, you know, I mean, I know a lot of it nerdy people who probably would enjoy this 163 00:14:49,820 --> 00:14:54,780 anything, but like, let's say we're in a retail environment and the business comes over to the 164 00:14:54,780 --> 00:15:00,060 operations people. Like you're not going to talk to them about like, you know, trucking logistics or 165 00:15:00,060 --> 00:15:04,940 like, you know, how do I select which stuff to put on the in cat on Tuesdays? Right. It's just like, 166 00:15:05,580 --> 00:15:10,220 we don't really need it to give input on that. Right. And similarly, like when it gets down to the 167 00:15:10,220 --> 00:15:14,460 operations level, like the business side doesn't really need to say like, I don't know, have you 168 00:15:14,460 --> 00:15:19,420 considered SSD drives or like, you know, how's our gigadoodles doing? Right. Like there's not 169 00:15:19,420 --> 00:15:24,780 really a lot that needs to interface in there. And instead, again, it's like the product development 170 00:15:24,780 --> 00:15:29,260 people are more of the ones who, which should be working very closely with the business. And I would, 171 00:15:30,140 --> 00:15:37,900 I mean, it feels like what ends up happening in that area is you have, I mean, 172 00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:42,540 there's always a weird phrase, the business, but you have people who are largely non-technical 173 00:15:42,540 --> 00:15:49,420 people who understand how the business operates. Right. And they end up working sometimes daily, 174 00:15:49,420 --> 00:15:54,860 but very closely with those product managers on the application side. And until you really have 175 00:15:54,860 --> 00:16:00,060 those people working that weekly basis together, like you don't really have the good, uh, synergizing, 176 00:16:00,060 --> 00:16:04,940 uh, between the two. But again, like, I mean, I don't know, this is always not, 177 00:16:04,940 --> 00:16:08,380 I don't know if this is the answer that people like, but like, I don't know, when it comes to 178 00:16:08,380 --> 00:16:14,060 operations, people worry about the developers. Okay. Well, that's, that's, uh, that's good advice. 179 00:16:14,060 --> 00:16:19,420 So if we do with end with the lightning round, I'll just, I'll, I'll give you some things that you just 180 00:16:19,420 --> 00:16:24,380 say the first thing that comes into your mind, but, um, Ice cream. Yes. Thank you. And you win. 181 00:16:24,380 --> 00:16:32,060 Thank you everyone. Um, no. Okay. Who were that? Uh, huh? I don't know. What's going to happen to it? 182 00:16:32,060 --> 00:16:35,420 What should we keep? Oh, I thought this is the first thing that comes into my head. Well, yeah, 183 00:16:35,420 --> 00:16:41,100 it changed rules, but. I, I was thinking koala for some reason. Exactly. Probably because they 184 00:16:41,100 --> 00:16:46,700 both start with K. Yeah. Yeah. Like every, every kiss begins with K. Yes. Okay. Um, 185 00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:57,740 so I, I think, yeah, I mean, I think after a long time of, of all of us in the industry trying to 186 00:16:57,740 --> 00:17:01,100 figure it out, like, yeah, that, that seems to be what people want to run. Like, I think, 187 00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:05,660 I think the most interesting thing with Kubernetes, like I was realizing this on stage today is I 188 00:17:05,660 --> 00:17:10,860 should stop saying public cloud and I should just say cloud. Cause like there used to be, 189 00:17:11,420 --> 00:17:15,740 there still is a distinction of public versus private cloud, things like that. But like, 190 00:17:15,740 --> 00:17:20,620 I think increasingly, like, you know, when people say cloud, they just mean like the big public 191 00:17:20,620 --> 00:17:27,260 clouds done. Right. And so what I'm curious with Kubernetes is like, like if you're just using 192 00:17:27,260 --> 00:17:33,900 public cloud, cloud stuff, like, do you need that? Like, and like, I guess another way of putting 193 00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:41,340 it is like, is all this interest in Kubernetes, is that a private cloud thing or, or a multi-cloud thing? 194 00:17:41,340 --> 00:17:47,900 But if you just wanted to use just one of the, the big public clouds, like does Kubernetes, is it really 195 00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:54,940 necessary? And I don't know. I mean, I think, I think you could equivocate. At least forget if 196 00:17:54,940 --> 00:18:01,340 equivocate means what I think it does, but you could, you could, you know, either answer, I could totally 197 00:18:01,340 --> 00:18:06,540 see that, you know, it goes either way, but I think that, that would be the, uh, I think that's what's at 198 00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:11,740 store in the future. It's figuring out like, do we need this thing? Uh, if we're not doing our own, 199 00:18:11,740 --> 00:18:18,540 building our own, like data centers and private clouds or edge, right? Well, yes, exactly. So that 200 00:18:18,540 --> 00:18:23,820 brings up the, and this isn't very late now, the longer answers, but it's more like a rolling with 201 00:18:23,820 --> 00:18:30,460 thunder. Well, I like that. Um, the multi-cloud, when you hear multi-cloud, because you just started 202 00:18:30,460 --> 00:18:38,140 talking about distinctions, delineations that you see going away, do you see multi-cloud as a, uh, 203 00:18:38,140 --> 00:18:45,180 a, as a helpful term? And B, do you see it as a reality in that? Like, would you say that would 204 00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:52,540 become the reality that it's just this pastiche of, uh, public cloud, private cloud, and, and then a 205 00:18:52,540 --> 00:18:57,580 mixture where you're, you're first thing over, uh, and a bunch of different configurations? 206 00:18:57,580 --> 00:19:02,460 So mostly the second, like whenever, nowadays, whenever I see the phrase or hear the phrase 207 00:19:02,460 --> 00:19:08,460 multi-cloud, I, I try to substitute in the word computers. And, and what I mean by that is, 208 00:19:08,460 --> 00:19:16,060 uh, like we used to have this phrase heterogeneous IT, which just meant like, uh, Windows, Linux, 209 00:19:16,060 --> 00:19:21,100 Unix, mainframes. And from an IT person, from the IT department's perspective, it's like, oh yeah, 210 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:25,980 we got all of that. Right. And so what we need to be able to do is we need to be able to support and 211 00:19:25,980 --> 00:19:32,780 manage everything. Right. Like we don't only have windows, we, whatever. And so like, when I hear 212 00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:36,700 the phrase multi-cloud and what it's come to be to me is like, oh yeah, we're going to be running stuff 213 00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:41,020 in the public cloud. We got some stuff over here. We got edge. Right. And like, and then we've got this 214 00:19:41,020 --> 00:19:48,540 thing. And again, in the scope of all of the stuff that I care about is scope to like an organization 215 00:19:48,540 --> 00:19:53,340 that is writing and running their own software that helps run their business. Right. I think that 216 00:19:54,620 --> 00:20:00,140 an organization of any size that I end up talking with, which is large, right. They just like, uh, 217 00:20:00,140 --> 00:20:06,060 you know, they got a lot of different stuff. And so they would like to have as few tools and as few 218 00:20:06,060 --> 00:20:11,500 things to manage all of that as possible. So in that sense, like, and so I kind of go over that 219 00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:16,380 because I think when a lot of people say multi-cloud, the feeling that I get is they're talking about, 220 00:20:16,380 --> 00:20:21,980 we're going to build a system and an architecture of a new thing that involves multiple clouds, 221 00:20:22,540 --> 00:20:26,380 which sounds cool. Right. Like you said, the word bursting, which is awesome. Right. 222 00:20:26,380 --> 00:20:30,940 Like such a, such a fun word. Right. Uh, but like, really what I think it means is just like, 223 00:20:30,940 --> 00:20:35,420 yeah, we've got a whole bunch of different stuff that like is not really compatible with each other, 224 00:20:35,420 --> 00:20:39,820 but we need to have a bunch of tools and ways of thinking that allow us to like manage all of it. 225 00:20:39,820 --> 00:20:44,540 Right. So it's something that happens more organically than something that, that you plan. 226 00:20:44,540 --> 00:20:50,300 And it's more from the outside, inside out, goes the outside in. Sure. At least in my head, 227 00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:54,620 I'm guessing. Some people like to go both ways. Exactly. Here, there and everywhere. So 228 00:20:54,620 --> 00:21:01,500 so if we talk about DevOps, cause that's what you go out and talk about, how are you positioning that 229 00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:06,860 now? This is not letting me run anymore. We're getting back into some topics, but how are you 230 00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:12,300 positioning that to people? Are you, to customers, are you saying really you should be focusing on 231 00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:17,100 this instead? Are you saying DevOps is going to transition to that for you? Are you still pretty 232 00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:28,460 much using that as the framing for your discussions? Yeah. I mean, I think to answer your question in a 233 00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:38,700 circuitous way, for once, I think what I try to emphasize is a lot of what we were just talking 234 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:43,580 about. There's two things I try to emphasize. One, I try to figure out if I'm talking to developers or 235 00:21:43,580 --> 00:21:47,900 operations people, right? When I'm talking to developers, I have a different sort of like 236 00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:54,860 prattle. And once again, you said app developers. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sophisticated enough to know 237 00:21:54,860 --> 00:21:59,500 there's like many types of developers. Yes. That's good. But I believe that when most people say 238 00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:06,460 developers, they mean application developers. So I shorten it that way because I look. Right. And so 239 00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:11,740 I think that, so if I'm talking with operations people, the conversation I try to have with them 240 00:22:11,740 --> 00:22:19,900 is what we've been talking about is like, so you're going to be building and supporting a platform, 241 00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:25,900 right? I try to use this word platform instead of DevOps. Okay. What comes with that is like, sure, 242 00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:34,140 DevOps, right? But like that's, it's not a bad way to, it's just, it's too much of a term. And so I try to 243 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:39,020 narrow it down to like, what you need to do is you're building a platform. And then we've all, 244 00:22:39,020 --> 00:22:43,260 we've discussed that already, right? But I try to steer this conversation towards like, so 245 00:22:43,260 --> 00:22:47,820 if there were operations people who are now building a platform that's going to run the software, 246 00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:53,740 multi-cloud environment or whatever, like here is generally the way people go about doing that, 247 00:22:53,740 --> 00:22:59,500 what the platform looks like, and all of that sort of stuff. Instead of kind of like going through the 248 00:22:59,500 --> 00:23:04,460 more traditional, like, well, DevOps, you've got to automate this thing and DevOps. 249 00:23:04,460 --> 00:23:10,460 Culture automation, which is all great, but I think, like, I think, I think we're all cool with 250 00:23:10,460 --> 00:23:16,060 that, right? Well, either that or it's something that confuses people. I think either way, 251 00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:23,580 I like the idea of focusing on platform because it becomes something that's tangible. I think since day 252 00:23:23,580 --> 00:23:30,460 one, the thing that is like the DevOps is the multitude of meanings and the sort of the fuzziness 253 00:23:30,460 --> 00:23:35,340 around it. We all have sort of the same idea, but particularly people coming new to the, 254 00:23:36,220 --> 00:23:44,540 to the concept or for trying to get to a second level of understanding platform is, is very helpful 255 00:23:44,540 --> 00:23:50,060 and easier to wrap your head around. Right. And if I may, I made a comment on myself 256 00:23:50,060 --> 00:23:57,260 further. Like, I feel like I always want to tell people something they can do, not like some state 257 00:23:57,260 --> 00:24:05,340 they should be in, right? Like, and so like, there's a great place for, in the computer world, 258 00:24:05,340 --> 00:24:09,500 the DevOps world, the product management world, all worlds of kind of saying like, 259 00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:13,900 wouldn't it be better if things were like this and sort of pointing out like, you know, we, you know, 260 00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:17,660 this, this culture over here is horrible and this culture is better. Right. And like, 261 00:24:18,220 --> 00:24:23,420 I've read all of that stuff and listen to it. But I, I always ask, like the frame that I have in my 262 00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:29,180 mind is like, all right, so this conference was fun. And, uh, then I'm going to come back on Monday 263 00:24:29,180 --> 00:24:34,220 and like, I got to do something. Right. So like, what am I going to do? Right. And so like, you know, 264 00:24:35,260 --> 00:24:38,860 I haven't mentioned a lot of concrete things that you can do, but that's what I always want to drive 265 00:24:38,860 --> 00:24:44,460 towards. And like, even if it's small, like what's something you could actually start doing. So for 266 00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:49,100 example, had to talk with developers recently, why don't you hire a product? Why don't you create a 267 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:54,620 product manager role and go talk with the application developers, find out what they need. Right. Like 268 00:24:54,620 --> 00:25:00,700 never, you know, like you're going to end up building a platform. Like I, we, you know, most of us who 269 00:25:01,340 --> 00:25:07,180 are on the outside, we can tell you what you're going to end up doing. Right. But you're going to end up 270 00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:11,900 doing it in a slightly different way. And all those little edge cases, slightly different things are 271 00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:16,620 going to be what matters. So like, we know what you're going to end up doing, but first just call 272 00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:22,140 up developers, find out your VP of applications or whatever nonsense is, and just talk with them 273 00:25:22,140 --> 00:25:26,220 and ask them what their deal is, what, how you can tell them what they need and start there. 274 00:25:27,180 --> 00:25:30,940 Because you already know you're going to build Kubernetes thing. What else are you going to do? 275 00:25:30,940 --> 00:25:36,540 Exactly. Platform to manage platforms. Yes. But you need some guidance or you're just going to end up 276 00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:41,260 with like something that people don't want to, don't want to, it was too strong. Just like something 277 00:25:41,260 --> 00:25:47,660 that doesn't apply, like that is a mismatch for what people actually need. Yeah. And just thinking more 278 00:25:47,660 --> 00:25:53,580 as you're talking about platform, I like it because you don't necessarily have to be talking about a 279 00:25:53,580 --> 00:25:59,020 specific platform like a Tanzu or an OpenShip. Well, you always have to talk about it, Tom. 280 00:25:59,020 --> 00:26:05,420 Yes, exactly. I forget who you work for. But the, it's just the concept of whatever it is that's 281 00:26:05,420 --> 00:26:09,660 going to support application development and that's going to be supported by operations. 282 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:15,740 That is what you can call a platform. Right, right, right. With a pre-packaged bundle that you get, 283 00:26:15,740 --> 00:26:23,260 whether it's your own, well, your own platform that you built. Right. I think that. And then the other, 284 00:26:23,260 --> 00:26:28,780 the other tangible thing, right, is that like, and this is why it's important to go start talking to 285 00:26:28,780 --> 00:26:35,260 developers, is like, from a operation standpoint, you focus on running the application, right? I mean, 286 00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:40,300 I mean, if you think about the process, it's sort of like someone gives me an application. I mean, 287 00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:44,380 configure it and set it up, and now it's running in production. And then something goes wrong, 288 00:26:44,380 --> 00:26:49,660 and I figure out what's wrong with it. And those, I mean, ludicrously, whatever, but like, 289 00:26:49,660 --> 00:26:54,220 that's kind of what's going on there. But if your customer is a developer, there's a lot more that's 290 00:26:54,220 --> 00:27:01,660 going on. So for example, your developers have, will have like a pipeline, like a whole process of how 291 00:27:02,380 --> 00:27:08,220 they ingest what the software needs to do, how they build it out, how they test it, how they automate 292 00:27:08,220 --> 00:27:13,660 things, like all sorts of things, right? And as you build out your platform, you're going to find that 293 00:27:13,660 --> 00:27:18,620 like, oh, I guess you've been ashamed left. Like, I should get involved in those tools more and more. 294 00:27:18,620 --> 00:27:23,820 And that's, I think, what a lot of DevOps groups do nowadays, is they build these developer tools. 295 00:27:23,820 --> 00:27:28,300 But that also becomes part of this orbit of the platform that is something different than operations 296 00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:32,140 people do. Yeah. And I should also, once again, thank you while you're talking. 297 00:27:32,140 --> 00:27:36,460 I should do more thinking. Well, I don't. Exactly. That's something I could do as well. But 298 00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:41,500 it doesn't mean, well, again, back to the side of platform and you focus on, doesn't mean that you 299 00:27:42,140 --> 00:27:48,780 be dope, that DevOps is not helpful. As I thought about it, DevOps is the methodology that underpins 300 00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:52,460 modern IT. And modern IT is characterized by a platform model. 301 00:27:52,460 --> 00:28:00,220 I mean, if you think about it at the beginning, like DevOps, like Puppet and Chef and Oblutatory, 302 00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:04,060 three other companies you always have to mention, right? But basically DevOps was, 303 00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:11,420 we don't like the way that automation is currently done. We want to make automation more programmable, 304 00:28:11,420 --> 00:28:16,060 right? In fact, depending on which way you went, like it was just a programming language, 305 00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:23,180 or it was a DSL or whatever you want to call it. But we want to start having infrastructure as code, 306 00:28:23,180 --> 00:28:28,460 right? And so it wasn't a platform. The whole thing of DevOps was that we are going to program 307 00:28:28,460 --> 00:28:33,340 our infrastructure, right? It's going to be more programmatic versus whatever else was before then, 308 00:28:33,340 --> 00:28:37,900 right? And so like floppy disks that you walked around and that's right. That's right. And then as 309 00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:44,140 DevOps has progressed, like it always sways back and forth between like the technology and the culture, 310 00:28:44,140 --> 00:28:50,140 the technology and the culture, right? One thing that I liked that Patrick Dubois said was he called it 311 00:28:50,140 --> 00:28:55,980 technical gravity, gravity and technology, basically that you try to pull it more to culture, et cetera, 312 00:28:55,980 --> 00:28:59,980 and you always get set back to the two. I mean, it always goes back, right? Because the two things 313 00:28:59,980 --> 00:29:05,020 enable each other, right? Like you get a new sort of technology, like when the automation people came 314 00:29:05,020 --> 00:29:09,580 along, that freed up a lot of time, and you had a new approach to doing it, which means, I mean, 315 00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:13,820 Joven's paradox, that's where it is. Yeah, that's right. Which means you could focus on changing 316 00:29:13,820 --> 00:29:17,340 culture. And then you change the culture around long enough and you haven't been focusing on the 317 00:29:17,340 --> 00:29:21,180 technology. And then the culture is in a good state. And you've got to go back and like there's 318 00:29:21,180 --> 00:29:25,020 new technology. Now all of a sudden, you've got containers that you can work with. And that 319 00:29:25,020 --> 00:29:28,940 changes the stack. And so you've got to spend some time with technology. And then you go back up to 320 00:29:28,940 --> 00:29:35,020 the culture. So, right. So you go from Puppet and Chef to Docker. Right, right. And then so forth and so on. 321 00:29:35,020 --> 00:29:41,740 And now, now, like a lot of us in the industry, we're just sort of farting around trying to figure 322 00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:45,420 out what we're going to do with Kubernetes or not do with Kubernetes. Finally, that's more or less 323 00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:54,220 resolved. And so now it's back to like, we, the people who are doing DevOps or whatever, like now, 324 00:29:54,220 --> 00:29:59,260 it's sort of like, hey, here's the new box of stuff you need to do. So like, I think things hopefully are 325 00:29:59,260 --> 00:30:03,420 swaying back towards technology where just like now we need to get Kubernetes up and running, 326 00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:08,220 which is why going back to what you're saying, like the important thing there is that like, 327 00:30:08,220 --> 00:30:13,500 what you're building is a platform, right? Like you're not, you're not just, it's not like the good, 328 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:17,500 good times of the early days of DevOps, where like, you know, really all you need to do is writing 329 00:30:17,500 --> 00:30:22,700 a bunch of Puppet and Chef scripts, you get an A plus, right? You've done the DevOps. Whereas now, 330 00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:27,420 it's more of like, you need to build a platform that your organization is going to use 331 00:30:27,420 --> 00:30:33,100 to make application development better, right? And that's like the technological focus that you have. 332 00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:38,460 So do that platform stuff. It's interesting because there are so many more dependencies and 333 00:30:38,460 --> 00:30:47,580 Kubernetes is so much more involved and intricate to set up and maintain. It is a bit of a black box 334 00:30:47,580 --> 00:30:52,220 compared and I made your own, but Puppet and Chef, they seem to come, come out from the beginning, 335 00:30:52,220 --> 00:30:58,780 be more fully formed, that there was less sort of set up you have to do. So while we talked about, 336 00:30:58,780 --> 00:31:03,580 traditionally with, with DevOps, as we talked about this culture, it's the most important thing, 337 00:31:03,580 --> 00:31:08,780 because if your culture doesn't change, then it doesn't matter how many great tools you have, 338 00:31:08,780 --> 00:31:11,900 because they're going to languish, because people won't, won't matter. 339 00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:17,900 But to your point, okay, so you know all these people who are raring to go and they, they understand 340 00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:22,540 the new way and they're looking forward to working together. But if they can't take Kubernetes work, 341 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:26,380 they're out there and it will hurt. So it is, it is that balancing act. 342 00:31:26,380 --> 00:31:30,380 Yeah. No, you need both of them, right? Like, like to, to repeat what you're saying is you have, 343 00:31:30,380 --> 00:31:36,460 uh, I don't know, you're like in whatever the right column of the West, Westeros corporate, 344 00:31:36,460 --> 00:31:42,540 Westeros or Rorschach thing is, you know, like you've got the bureaucratic, like, and then you've 345 00:31:42,540 --> 00:31:46,540 got like whatever one's in the middle of the, just a 1984 reference. Yeah. It's, it's the, 346 00:31:46,540 --> 00:31:51,580 the Westeros thing. That's all the big DevOps rewards. Okay. So let's say you've got the good 347 00:31:51,580 --> 00:31:57,340 generative culture. Okay. And then let's say your tools are crap. Like it doesn't matter, 348 00:31:57,340 --> 00:32:01,260 right? Like you've got this generative culture that everything, they're, they're all pulling the 349 00:32:01,260 --> 00:32:05,100 right way. They've got all the characteristics. And then it's like, all right, now let's do this stuff. 350 00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:09,340 And like, well, we've got to go to the train and tell us how to fill out the tickets correctly 351 00:32:09,340 --> 00:32:15,420 to get a server. Right. So that's my point is that like, you can't dismiss culture and you 352 00:32:15,420 --> 00:32:20,220 can't dismiss technology. Like you need both of them. And if one of them is bad, including the 353 00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:25,180 technology, then the other one is irrelevant. Right. Like, like you could have, for example, 354 00:32:25,180 --> 00:32:29,420 I mean, my little joke is always like, you get a great technology and all that gets you is this 355 00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:35,900 blinking cursor. Right. He's still needing to do something with it. So anyhow, that's, that's why 356 00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:43,660 it's good to like, figure out, like, don't get over fixated on just one of those other things of the 357 00:32:43,660 --> 00:32:48,460 continuously, uh, the swing thing. Cool. Like this. Right. Does that work? Yeah. No, 358 00:32:48,460 --> 00:32:52,860 I think that makes sense. You can't have one without the other. And I think, yeah, I don't know, 359 00:32:52,860 --> 00:33:01,900 back to that technical gravity. If that tends to be the natural, uh, pull of, of, of, or snap the swing 360 00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:09,180 of, of, uh, culture versus technology that tends to be the, the 60 to the 40 or the 70 to the 30, but 361 00:33:10,060 --> 00:33:16,140 whatever it is, you still can't have it without the, the other component. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it 362 00:33:16,140 --> 00:33:24,540 maybe attached to that is like, it's really easy to stop talking with your customer. Right. And like, 363 00:33:24,540 --> 00:33:31,340 like whether you're an application developer or operations person or, or whatever layer, like, 364 00:33:31,340 --> 00:33:38,700 that's why I try to always emphasize, like, like what is your business? Like, what is it that your 365 00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:44,380 organization does? Who is the customer that you work indirectly and directly with? How do you make 366 00:33:44,380 --> 00:33:50,380 things better for them? Right. And like every single, like, at least in the area that we're talking 367 00:33:50,380 --> 00:33:55,820 about, every single, like, I don't know if the person who like, you know, orders the Xerox paper, 368 00:33:55,820 --> 00:34:00,540 you know, well, I don't know, they can do whatever they like. Right. But like, you know, you always have 369 00:34:00,540 --> 00:34:05,100 to know, like, I don't, I don't like that whole, like, you have to know your why sort of like, also, 370 00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:10,540 I need to breathe regularly and like, you know, but like, you need to know why you're doing this. Like, 371 00:34:10,540 --> 00:34:17,580 who is the customer for it? And like, I think what happens a lot is, is whether you're building a 372 00:34:17,580 --> 00:34:24,380 technology or you're perfecting the culture, like it's easy to kind of lose track of the customer or 373 00:34:24,380 --> 00:34:29,420 the outcome. And so you always got to go check back on them and be like, so we made this generative 374 00:34:29,420 --> 00:34:35,660 culture. Uh, is it like selling more stuff? Right. Like, is it working? And like, is it, 375 00:34:35,660 --> 00:34:41,020 is it making it easier for, uh, Bart to file their, his taxes, right? Like, you know, 376 00:34:41,020 --> 00:34:44,140 you've always got to go back and make sure that whoever your customer is, that like, 377 00:34:44,140 --> 00:34:47,980 you're actually making things better for them, regardless of how great you're doing. Right. 378 00:34:47,980 --> 00:34:52,940 Yeah. And that's the, that's the whole idea of this being an infinite loop. There is no stasis. 379 00:34:52,940 --> 00:34:58,620 You can't say we got the requirements there. We're done. We'll talk to you another 10 years 380 00:34:58,620 --> 00:35:04,460 because things happen to. Right. This is this continuous feedback loop that is so important. 381 00:35:05,100 --> 00:35:11,580 Whether you do the full blown DevOps model or not, that in itself is, is a something simple, 382 00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:16,220 but something very important to realize that things are always moving. You want to be, as you say, 383 00:35:16,220 --> 00:35:21,820 checking back with your customers, checking back and seeing what they're needing. And that's say, 384 00:35:21,820 --> 00:35:28,300 in a simple example, uh, consumer goods, you're obviously always taking track of what kind of 385 00:35:28,300 --> 00:35:34,140 scents are important for, uh, shampoos or what kind of, what they're dentifrice, as they say, 386 00:35:34,140 --> 00:35:39,260 toothpaste, how those are trending. Uh, one of the things that toothbrushes, man, they have so many 387 00:35:39,260 --> 00:35:44,460 different bells and whistles, they keep coming up with. You would never think of not continuously 388 00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:48,780 checking with those customers. Right, right, right. But maybe say on the, within it, you say, 389 00:35:48,780 --> 00:35:53,740 hey, God, I know what the developers want. I'm good. But that changes. And you also need 390 00:35:53,740 --> 00:35:58,940 their learning as you go as well. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, toothbrushes are, uh, a fun analogy, 391 00:35:58,940 --> 00:36:03,180 right? Because it, it, it, it, uh, it almost seems like, you know, capitalism gone muck. It's like, 392 00:36:03,180 --> 00:36:07,980 how many types of toothbrushes do we really need? It was like $9 for toothbrush. I mean, it's just, 393 00:36:07,980 --> 00:36:15,020 I mean, it's crazy. I was in, uh, oral care at Johnson and Johnson. I did, uh, uh, dental floss. You 394 00:36:15,020 --> 00:36:18,780 don't have to floss them all just the ones you want to keep. A hundred million dollar brand. And 395 00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:25,900 this was like 20 years ago. Um, it's crazy. So yes, but you always do have to stay up with it. Right, 396 00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:32,860 right. Capitalism run amok, as you say, because people, whether people lead it or not, there's 397 00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:39,900 always this differentiation that they seem to be seeking. Some of which is warranted. Some of which is 398 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:45,900 just let's throw something out there and maybe people will buy toothbrushes that have three pads 399 00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:50,860 that, you know, that spin. Exactly. And you know, you want to experiment, try new things out and 400 00:36:50,860 --> 00:36:55,740 explore it and get feedback. And if it works, do more of it. That's always a good idea if something 401 00:36:55,740 --> 00:37:00,140 works in your business. And if like, it doesn't work, then like stop doing it. Right. And so, 402 00:37:00,140 --> 00:37:05,260 but it is getting that loop in place where you, uh, you're making sure all the way down to the 403 00:37:05,260 --> 00:37:09,980 infrastructure and operations stuff like it, is it still working out? Is it good? And in order to 404 00:37:09,980 --> 00:37:14,940 answer that question, you've got to know who the customer is with like, is it making the application 405 00:37:14,940 --> 00:37:20,380 developers jobs better? And then when you make their jobs better, the actual in the customer of the 406 00:37:20,380 --> 00:37:25,340 business, the end user, as you say there, that they should be improving as well. And I think that 407 00:37:25,340 --> 00:37:32,940 part of the actual manifesto and then part of the DevOps ethos is the quick feedback loops, right? 408 00:37:32,940 --> 00:37:39,500 So that you're, you're not putting out big, uh, deployments, but you have things in bits so you 409 00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:44,060 can do quick rollbacks. So I think that would be one of the big differences between that. The 410 00:37:44,060 --> 00:37:50,220 toothbrush market is to get the toothbrush out there to get it in place at Walmart, et cetera. 411 00:37:50,220 --> 00:37:54,140 That's a lot trickier because you have it all the way out there and you, you're pretty far 412 00:37:54,140 --> 00:37:59,260 instead and make pretty big investment. And in the past, people have done that with 413 00:37:59,260 --> 00:38:04,300 workflow deployments or things where you had to spend two years on it to get it anywhere. 414 00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:10,380 But with the idea of, with DevOps and with Agile, it's let's get, let's get this loop quicker so 415 00:38:10,380 --> 00:38:16,460 that we don't, A, we don't make any mistakes. We can't pull back and B, we're, we're able to 416 00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:19,020 match the needs of the customers. Yeah. Yeah. 417 00:38:19,020 --> 00:38:24,860 Go on. Well, let's see if I can make this statement without having it be like, just like, uh, useless. 418 00:38:24,860 --> 00:38:31,580 But like, I think the traditional way, which is to say the current way of thinking about operation 419 00:38:31,580 --> 00:38:37,660 stuff is that you build what you can, right? Like, like you have, you have this stuff and you build 420 00:38:37,660 --> 00:38:43,260 up what, what is possible. Right. Whereas like what you were just describing there is like, 421 00:38:43,820 --> 00:38:50,140 instead you should build like, kind of like what you need in the sense of like, what we want to be 422 00:38:50,140 --> 00:38:55,260 able to do is we want to be able to deploy our software every week. So let's work back from there. 423 00:38:55,260 --> 00:39:00,540 That's the goal that we have. Right. And so like, I, you know, I know that sounds ludicrous, 424 00:39:00,540 --> 00:39:05,580 but like, tell me, and I don't, this is someone talking to the operations people, right? Like, 425 00:39:06,140 --> 00:39:11,340 what is it that you would need to support that? Right. And like, I know with our current way of 426 00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:15,020 thinking about stuff and the infrastructure we do, it just seems ludicrous kind of like 427 00:39:15,020 --> 00:39:20,300 installing some big package application, but like, there are many companies and organizations that 428 00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:26,300 manage to do this. So I know it's possible. Right. And so like, what do we need to do to get to the 429 00:39:26,300 --> 00:39:32,300 point where we can safely deploy and run our software like every week and like, let's start 430 00:39:32,300 --> 00:39:37,100 from there. Right. Like, nevermind all this nonsense, like not nonsense, but like all the constraints 431 00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:42,060 and the problems that we have over here, like, and, but that's what it is. I think to build a platform, 432 00:39:42,060 --> 00:39:47,580 like start with that goal in mind, not with, not with like, well, we have all this stuff and we can 433 00:39:47,580 --> 00:39:53,500 build stuff with it. Right. Like maybe that stuff you've had like is useful. Right. And so you need to 434 00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:58,700 come up. That's why you're building a new platform instead of just like, you know, like, for example, 435 00:39:58,700 --> 00:40:04,540 you could be like, ah, we got all these computers and we're just going to install Kubernetes on them. 436 00:40:04,540 --> 00:40:09,900 And then we're going to have a Kubernetes cluster up and running. And it's going to be great. And then 437 00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:14,700 we'll have that. So we built this thing. And then, and then a good test is to be like, all right, so how, 438 00:40:14,700 --> 00:40:19,100 how would a developer get a cluster? And then sometimes the answer is like, oh, well, they need to file a 439 00:40:19,100 --> 00:40:22,780 ticket. And you need to be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I think we've lost 440 00:40:22,780 --> 00:40:27,980 track of what's going on here. Right. So, and again, I think it's good to start with that angle of like, 441 00:40:28,540 --> 00:40:32,860 start way up here. We want to deploy our software every week. What does that imply and work back from there? 442 00:40:32,860 --> 00:40:38,460 Is that working up? Right. And then, and then work forward in incremental ways because you're not going to say, 443 00:40:38,460 --> 00:40:44,860 this is where we want to be. So let's throw everything out that we have and let's buy new everything. Right. 444 00:40:44,860 --> 00:40:49,980 To get it going is that you say, once again, you've got your roadmap. This is where we need to be. This 445 00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:55,340 is what we've got. Let's slowly start replacing things. Let's figure out how we can use what we have 446 00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:04,700 modified versions of that to support the new system. Because otherwise, it's, it's, it's a loss in 447 00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:13,260 expenditure, capital expenditure. And also, you're, you don't quite know how to use the new things. And I 448 00:41:13,260 --> 00:41:19,420 think it would be, it would be bad. Yeah. Yeah. So start small on some projects, find your customer. Yep. 449 00:41:19,420 --> 00:41:25,740 Just experiment, try things out. And, uh, you know, I'll, I'll always, uh, consult with the, the customers that you 450 00:41:25,740 --> 00:41:32,140 have, see how that's working out, uh, do stuff to help them. And I should say for both our respective 451 00:41:32,140 --> 00:41:39,020 companies, if you want to buy everything brand new, that is totally cool too. Yes, exactly. In fact, I'll put a link in here that, uh, 452 00:41:39,020 --> 00:41:44,700 direct use of sales for us and yeah, sales ticket that you can form and, and file a ticket. Yes, 453 00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:50,380 exactly. So, well, with that, Michael Coté, it's been a pleasure as always. I think, uh, I've learned 454 00:41:50,380 --> 00:41:54,940 something from here. I hope our, our viewers, I've learned a lesson from YouTube. Oh, stop it some more. 455 00:41:55,180 --> 00:42:03,180 Uh, and on that note, uh, signing out from DevOps days, Dallas Fort Worth number five. 456 00:42:03,180 --> 00:42:04,220 Thank you. Bye. 457 00:42:05,180 --> 00:42:09,900 Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode. What I want you to do now is go to SpringOne.io and check out 458 00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:14,460 the conference we have coming up December 6th and 8th. I've got a discount code. When you register, 459 00:42:14,460 --> 00:42:20,220 you can use Coté 200 to get yes, $200 off. Now at that conference, we're going to be going over 460 00:42:20,220 --> 00:42:25,580 software development, agile software development practices and culture, case studies of organizations 461 00:42:25,580 --> 00:42:31,820 that are getting better at software and all that operation stuff, devopsy things, SRE, whatever, 462 00:42:31,820 --> 00:42:36,940 all the stuff that comes with operating and providing stacks you've built on top of Kubernetes platform 463 00:42:36,940 --> 00:42:41,660 as a service like the Tanzu application service, stuff like that. Overall, it's focused on how 464 00:42:41,660 --> 00:42:46,700 organizations are getting better at software. Just kind of fun stuff like that. If you're into that 465 00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:51,180 kind of thing. Anyhow, when you go to SpringOne.io and you register, you can use the discount code 466 00:42:51,180 --> 00:42:56,140 Coté 200 to get $200 off. Hopefully I'll see you there. Bye-bye.