1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,280 Welcome, listeners, to the Cloud & Culture Podcast. I'm Danielle Burrow from VMware. 2 00:00:05,660 --> 00:00:09,600 And I'm Derek Harris from VMware. If this is your first time listening, here's a quick 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:14,740 background. This podcast focuses on VMware Pivotal Labs experts and clients who share 4 00:00:14,740 --> 00:00:19,940 their experiences, tips, best practices, and opinions on app modernization and digital 5 00:00:19,940 --> 00:00:23,840 transformation. For a more thorough introduction, listen to a previous episode. 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:29,900 This week, we're joined by Kristen Morse and Valerie Ellery of A21, a nonprofit dedicated 7 00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:34,340 to ending human trafficking around the world. They share their experience working with 8 00:00:34,340 --> 00:00:40,000 the nonprofit arm of VMware Pivotal Labs called Pivotal Act to digitize the organization's 9 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,780 educational curriculum in a sustainable and secure way. 10 00:00:43,140 --> 00:00:47,320 It's a good discussion about an important topic, and it should give you a good sense of how 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,480 Pivotal Labs' best practices can work even with organizations that have very limited IT 12 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:56,540 staff and with non-technical teams trying to solve non-technical problems. But enough from 13 00:00:56,540 --> 00:00:59,940 us, hear Valerie and Kristen discuss their experiences now. 14 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,320 So, Valerie, Kristen, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to have you here. Could 15 00:01:05,320 --> 00:01:09,900 you take a moment to just briefly introduce yourself and your role at A21? Let's start with 16 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:10,300 you, Valerie. 17 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:17,580 Hi. Yes, and thank you for having us. I get the pleasure to serve all of the different countries 18 00:01:17,580 --> 00:01:24,780 that A21 services as far as our coordinators. I am considered the Global Education Curriculum 19 00:01:24,980 --> 00:01:28,580 Specialist for A21 overseeing the education projects. 20 00:01:29,780 --> 00:01:30,560 Great. And Kristen? 21 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:36,780 And my name is Kristen, and I have been with A21 for just over 11 years. I'm the Global 22 00:01:36,780 --> 00:01:42,820 Reach Director, so focus on prevention, awareness, and education globally and get to work with 23 00:01:42,820 --> 00:01:47,700 every one of our offices to implement programs and just come up with the most effective strategies 24 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:49,920 to help stop trafficking before it starts. 25 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:57,160 Great. Thanks. And Kristen, could you give us just a quick overview of A21's mission and, 26 00:01:57,220 --> 00:01:59,820 you know, how you got involved with Pivotal Act? 27 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:08,360 A21 stands for Abolishing Slavery Everywhere Forever. And we operate in over 15 countries. We have 28 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:15,260 a model of reach, rescue, and restore. So we are able to focus on preventing human trafficking, 29 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:22,120 on operating hotlines, collecting data, the intervention piece, and then supporting survivors 30 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:28,780 with long-term aftercare. And so we were able to engage with Pivotal Acts originally through a grant 31 00:02:28,780 --> 00:02:34,400 that we received from Dell and have been so excited about this process because it's new for us and 32 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:40,700 something that we have never been able to do before but have learned so much from. And even since the 33 00:02:40,700 --> 00:02:46,460 engagement, we're seeing how the processes and things that we learned is really impacting our 34 00:02:46,460 --> 00:02:51,260 operations and really helping to support initiatives that are impacting the globe. 35 00:02:52,700 --> 00:02:59,320 All right. And then what was the impetus or what was A21 trying to accomplish by, you know, 36 00:02:59,380 --> 00:03:02,660 by getting, by engaging with Pivotal Act? Like what is the, you know, what was one of the 37 00:03:02,660 --> 00:03:06,380 big, big goals you all were hoping to achieve? 38 00:03:07,980 --> 00:03:15,700 Well, I can speak on this one for a moment. I believe that we wanted to join forces with Pivotal Act 39 00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:22,380 to be able to validate what we have been using in some of the resources and the way we've gone about 40 00:03:22,380 --> 00:03:28,180 trying to get resources into the schools, but then really define the most effective pathway forward 41 00:03:28,180 --> 00:03:33,560 because we, you know, along this journey over the last seven years, we have had some roads that we've 42 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:40,060 hit some dead ends. And so we wanted to say, could we work alongside of a company such as Pivotal Acts 43 00:03:40,060 --> 00:03:45,900 and, and begin to look at evidence-based and is our curriculum, you know, what we're creating 44 00:03:45,900 --> 00:03:50,860 evidence-based? Could we use some of the interviews that they did with the teachers to be able to 45 00:03:50,860 --> 00:03:58,720 start going down that path to resource our schools so that we can have ways that, sustainable ways 46 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:04,420 that continue to help us to flow into these classrooms, you know, gaining understanding of the 47 00:04:04,420 --> 00:04:09,740 tech landscape. I love the opportunity that, you know, we can bring this online model 48 00:04:09,740 --> 00:04:15,940 to the schools and that was something we've never really been able to tap into. So for me and for 49 00:04:15,940 --> 00:04:23,460 our education department of 821, I felt like it was just really trying to enhance what we're doing, 50 00:04:23,580 --> 00:04:27,140 but then validate and create pathways forward. 51 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:32,600 And you mentioned, you know, kind of some obstacles and, and hitting some dead ends. 52 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:40,340 Is, are there specifics there that you can speak to that, you know, you, when you were working with 53 00:04:40,340 --> 00:04:44,620 Pivotal Acts, you were really hoping to find solutions to address? 54 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:52,320 Well, I think I, you know, I think looking at the stakeholders, I remember us doing a strategy 55 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:58,420 that really involved trying to figure out, basically, I think it was called actor mapping 56 00:04:58,420 --> 00:05:04,260 and doing some of the personas and going in there and really saying, okay, who's our audience? 57 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:09,860 How are we being impacted by, you know, the direct impact for classroom teachers versus 58 00:05:09,860 --> 00:05:16,040 getting to indirect with the communities and the parents, possibly the stakeholders with Department 59 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:22,780 of Ed and even Ministry of Education globally. So that was a real big eye opener to really go in. 60 00:05:22,780 --> 00:05:27,480 And we, we've known, we need to know who our audience is and, but yet to get in there and 61 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:33,860 start really looking at, you know, who's, who are they and what type of questions can we 62 00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:40,320 start to form to really speak to our audience? That was one big one for me with actor mapping 63 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,060 and, and looking at the, the personas. 64 00:05:43,060 --> 00:05:49,840 I would also just add the timing of this engagement was so unique with COVID and it being 2020 65 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:57,700 and so much of school going online. And so having the opportunity to engage with educators to do the 66 00:05:57,700 --> 00:06:03,160 interviews, to really learn what does technology look like in the classroom right now? And where 67 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:10,240 is it going? Helped us a lot to be able to anticipate for the future. What do we need to build? What 68 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:16,080 will actually serve teachers well? And how do we need to set things up to be accessible so that they can 69 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,400 use it in their classrooms? Yeah, absolutely. 70 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:25,320 All right. Yeah. That's, that's something that comes up repeatedly whenever we talk about remote 71 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:30,080 work, I think, or anything remote is, is like, oh, some of the stuff is going to stick around 72 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:35,340 for the longterm. So it's, it's, it's almost as horrible as a pandemic is. It's a learning experience 73 00:06:35,340 --> 00:06:41,000 in a lot of ways to really like make people think about technology and doing things in a, a technology 74 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,000 enabled way with the tools that they're going to just going to become more and more ubiquitous. So 75 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:51,440 that's, that's interesting that it's, it seems to span every discussion now. It's like, this is, 76 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:56,820 this is a new way of thinking about the world around us and what we're doing. I mean, I'm curious too, 77 00:06:56,900 --> 00:07:02,760 what was like, what does software development or IT look like within an organization like, 78 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:08,880 like A21? Because I know sometimes, you know, pivotal labs and, and the VMware and who, you know, 79 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:14,400 whomever the various organizations go into large enterprises, right. With huge IT teams. But I think 80 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:20,280 the, the nonprofit world seems like a, a bit of a different ball game. So, so maybe you can explain 81 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,780 what, you know, what this process might've looked like or how you would have tackled the stuff 82 00:07:24,780 --> 00:07:32,240 historically or on your own. As an organization, we don't really have any software development 83 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:39,040 in-house. Um, our overall IT management is really lean. So we utilize software as a service to manage 84 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:46,560 everything. And this has really allowed like us to manage systems and services for 150 plus staff and 85 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:53,400 over a hundred volunteers at any given time. And we actually only have one IT staff member. And so working 86 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:59,300 with Pivotal X was quite the experience too, of what does it look like to have a team of experts in 87 00:07:59,300 --> 00:08:06,180 these areas, speaking into things and just providing so much context for what we need moving forward. 88 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:11,940 That's really interesting. So I imagine, you know, sustain, sustainability in terms of, you know, 89 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:18,160 figuring out what the solution is really going to look like and how you can continue to manage that 90 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,600 moving forward was, I imagine a big focus of your engagement. 91 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:24,440 Definitely. 92 00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:31,060 So what, yeah, what, what does it look like? I mean, maybe I'm jumping ahead too, too quickly, but I'm just 93 00:08:31,060 --> 00:08:40,460 curious, like, did it, did working with Pivotal Act help you, did they help you find kind of resources 94 00:08:40,460 --> 00:08:49,220 to like build something or are you using SaaS based like third party solutions or how, how did you kind of 95 00:08:49,220 --> 00:08:52,300 piece something together that's, that's, that's sustainable? 96 00:08:52,940 --> 00:08:59,160 From that start of the engagement, we focused on like the three options of, do you need to build 97 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:04,740 something? Do you need to use something that's existing or do we need to pause and wait? And so 98 00:09:04,740 --> 00:09:10,900 that was really helpful because every step we were looking at those different options and they really 99 00:09:10,900 --> 00:09:18,720 help to identify what exists and options that will work for us where we're at. And then also future 100 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:28,900 options where if we do build or have more team or invest more or any situation, like what those 101 00:09:28,900 --> 00:09:33,700 different stats would look like in the future and what we could bring in at those points in time. 102 00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:40,820 And so I think for a nonprofit, we do really try to maximize our resources and we know that every 103 00:09:40,820 --> 00:09:47,680 dollar matters and that there's that difference between investing in IT or a survivor of human 104 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:53,360 trafficking, receiving aftercare and that it supports each other and it's all really important, but there 105 00:09:53,360 --> 00:10:00,420 is that just weight to the funding and the importance of stewarding our resources well. And so I think working 106 00:10:00,420 --> 00:10:06,660 with Pivotal Acts and the fact that they recognized that and they worked with us with that in mind and 107 00:10:06,660 --> 00:10:13,000 continuously came back to it was really, really helpful. And it also just helps us and the leadership 108 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:18,580 of our organization, like trust the recommendations because it's clear that those things have been 109 00:10:18,580 --> 00:10:21,140 thought through every step of the way as well. 110 00:10:21,540 --> 00:10:27,800 What were some of the areas where, you know, speaking of thinking through problems and thinking 111 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:34,360 through things and solutions from various angles, what were some of the areas where maybe you had 112 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,720 thought about things or, you know, I'm just, I'm curious where, you know, I'm guessing there were 113 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,400 some successes and there was, and then there were some other things where you thought, okay, this is 114 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,880 probably not a good idea or this is not sustainable for whatever reason. I'm curious what some of the 115 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:52,120 things, where were some of the areas where you were, you recall specifically having to like, 116 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,840 like thinking through a product problem or thinking through a solution and deciding this is not 117 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,440 actually the one to work and we have to go in another direction. Because I think some of those, 118 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:06,040 I don't call them failures, but I think those examples often are illuminate for folks like 119 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,920 that not everything is perfect. Your first idea is not the best one, right? Or whatever. 120 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,520 Yeah. I'm sitting here thinking, we did hit a couple of them. Just even thinking, 121 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:25,320 you know, our original thought was we were going to create a complete maybe IT system that housed this, 122 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:32,200 that hosted this, that had it all in there from fillables to just interaction with videos and just 123 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:38,280 a lot. And it was in the process of working with the Pivotal Act team that we realized, you know, 124 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:44,520 that might not be feasible. One, that might not be exactly what our users want. Because when they 125 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:52,680 started doing the interview, we found out, especially in the K-5 category of students that they really need 126 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:59,560 in person as well as online. So that started to become a pivotal moment for us to say, oh, you know, 127 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:06,760 we need to, to backtrack a little and look at maybe this hybrid model and continue to focus on making sure 128 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:15,000 that with the content of human trafficking prevention, that it is such a sensitive topic that maybe it's 129 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:20,520 best that we're not just doing everything online, that we have some in-person interaction with our 130 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:27,480 students. So that was one for, for me is to kind of pivot and go back to, okay, we need a hybrid model in this. 131 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:33,800 On the actual platform side as well, I thought it was really interesting because we were leaning towards 132 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:40,120 in the beginning, building a custom platform or utilizing our website that is custom built. 133 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:45,880 And after doing the research and looking at what already exists and what schools are using, 134 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:52,040 it became clear that there's another platform that is already in schools and that fits most of the 135 00:12:52,040 --> 00:13:00,120 boxes that we needed it to fit to be able to deliver this product. And so because of that decision and 136 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:05,800 that exploration, it will save so much money for the organization long-term and be a lot more 137 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:12,200 accessible to educators who need to access the materials. So I thought that was a really great 138 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,600 finding out of this experience as well. That's awesome. That makes a lot of sense. 139 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,680 And so it sounds like the focus of this engagement really was truly on the curriculum, 140 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:31,080 delivery system for K through 12. So right now, I know, I understand you have education offerings 141 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:38,200 in person at the high school level. Is that right? Yes. In the United States, we have a curriculum 142 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:46,360 currently that we actually started writing in 2012 and published it in 2014. So we know and knew, 143 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:52,440 we knew that the, the content really needed to be updated. And it was at that time written for just 144 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:59,480 9th and 10th graders. 821, we also have resources that have been created globally. Our primary 145 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:07,000 prevention was, was, was created more for the Thailand and the students of Thailand. And then when we have 146 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:12,280 started rolling that out, we're realizing we can contextualize that. We can really utilize some of the 147 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:18,600 the unsafe and safe secrets and the things that we really put out there as objectives in this primary 148 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,960 version for, for Thailand. We started realizing this could be contextualized across all of our countries 149 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:31,560 and bringing it into what we are currently doing in the States. So 821 has worked alongside and 150 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:38,680 partnered up with Florida Department of Ed to, to try to really look at curriculum guides. So with, 151 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:46,120 it's a title four part a grant working alongside with FSU and all, but 821's resources of the primary 152 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:51,080 prevention, as well as what we had for the high school curriculum bodies are not commodities, 153 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:56,120 as well as our human trafficking awareness program. What we were able to do is take all of those 154 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:03,560 resources and really start creating what is called a child trafficking prevention education curriculum 155 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,760 guide. And so what we are working on and what we started working on, it was happening at the exact 156 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:15,000 moment in this whole process with pivotal acts. And we were excited because in that we realized we could 157 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:23,160 have a pilot of what we're doing and, and go into the state specifically and start narrowing it down to 158 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:29,880 hundreds or thousands of needed teachers to, to go through a pilot study. And the pivotal team was just 159 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:35,800 instrumental in helping us. And they're still helping us think through the pre and the post and what, 160 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:41,800 what kind of questions we need to ask and what are we looking for inside this pilot so that it can be 161 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:48,200 credible so that it can be in an, in almost, like I said earlier, a research based manner so that it has 162 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:54,840 that validity to it. So that was something we were excited about and it's definitely, you know, taking what we 163 00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:01,560 have in the old and our ultimate goal out of all this process along with, with this work that we're 164 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:09,960 doing with them where and pivotal acts and Dell and, and a 21 is to ultimately create a version two of our 165 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:15,000 original ninth and 10th grade bodies are not commodities, but create a version two that has 166 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:20,280 kindergarten through 12th grade that looks at the threads of human rights and identity relationship and 167 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:26,760 digital safety. And so as we've been rolling this out and talking through this with the pivotal team, 168 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:32,280 you know, they've really given us insights of what to think about for metrics and understanding outcome 169 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:38,280 versus out bait. It was, Agnes would be so proud of me if I could remember this, but it was basically 170 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:45,000 looking in the concepts of trying to do out outputs versus outcome, I think is how she always stated it. 171 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:51,240 And I, I love that because outputs helped me to truly understand how we tell our a 21 story 172 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:58,280 and what we do about that with how it was produced, but doesn't ever really address the impact where 173 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:04,440 the outcomes did address the impact. And so we started that with that whole session we did with pivotal acts 174 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:11,160 on, um, um, that Agnes led through the outputs and outcomes and metrics, uh, really was an answer to 175 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:17,800 some of the areas that we may be at our team with a 21. We're trying to understand and trying to see 176 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:24,680 how can we measure this with accountability to it for it. And so coming out of that, that session was, 177 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,760 was powerful with the understanding of metrics in that regard. 178 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,320 I wanted to ask going back a little bit. I mean, this references, I think talking about even the 179 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,480 the, the, the, the IT department, as well as, you know, you mentioned that, that your primary, 180 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:42,520 your initial draft of, of this curriculum, it was from 2014 or whatever. Cause I think a lot of 181 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,560 organizations of all sizes and types go through this is, is, is figuring what I'm trying. And I'm 182 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:52,360 curious from a nonprofit or from your, maybe just from your, you, the personal or organizational 183 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:57,800 perspective of, of a 21 is how, how do you think about that balance given just the world we live 184 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:03,240 in terms of, you know, balancing, balancing, helping clients, which is probably, you know, 185 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,960 obviously the most important goal with the fact that so much stuff is digital now with the fact 186 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:13,240 that stuff needs to be updated regularly and, and stuff that seven, that seven years old starts to 187 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:19,160 seem certain might start to seem dated at some point. I'm just curious how, how, how you guys go 188 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:24,280 through thinking about balancing all of those things, because it's, it's complicated for everyone. 189 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,760 And again, for a nonprofit with, I think it's probably even a little more complicated, just 190 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:36,040 given how dedicated everyone is to the actual, you know, humane centered outcome of how we're trying 191 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:43,400 to achieve. So. Yeah. I do think it's a challenging balance sometimes. And we always try to accomplish 192 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:51,160 a lot with a very little. And I think that a 21 does a good job at that in the case of a resource like 193 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:58,840 this, because it feeds directly into operations, the more up to date, the information that we're 194 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:04,600 educating teachers and students on about human trafficking, the better it is in terms of being 195 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:11,640 able to identify more potential victims of trafficking and actually stopping the cycle of trafficking. 196 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:17,960 And so we see it not necessarily as competing, but really supporting each other. But there is that 197 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:25,160 evaluation of, is this urgent? Does it need to be done now? Whereas in the case of a survivor of 198 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,960 human trafficking who comes into our care, there's a lot of immediate needs. And so I think it's that 199 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:37,560 perspective of what's the long-term goal and what are we building over time versus what do we have to take 200 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:46,040 care of right now? And so I think that we have done a good job at figuring out how to really maximize 201 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:53,160 the resources that we have. So in terms of Bodies Are Not Commodities published in 2014, we've been able to 202 00:19:53,160 --> 00:20:00,440 take that resource and work with ministries of education globally and really repurpose the material 203 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:06,600 and incorporate the content so that we're reaching millions of students along the way. And then once 204 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:12,200 we do the second version and have it available, there'll be a long-term scalability plan for how 205 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:18,040 we continue to do that in other countries. So it's always building upon each other. And I think that 206 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:24,760 as the momentum continues, that's when you continue to bring in the investment and increased IT and 207 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:30,040 support and staffing capacity because there is the momentum there and there's the effectiveness and 208 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:31,880 you can see that it's already working. 209 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:38,440 Yeah. And I think if I can piggyback on that, I think working with Pivotal X and just recently 210 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:46,360 doing the strategic tree was a wonderful technique for us because it really refocused us, came back to, 211 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:51,720 you know, how do we know we've achieved the outcome and what is our outcome? It made us really 212 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:57,800 go back in education. It's fewer students becoming victims of trafficking. So keeping that purpose, 213 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:04,360 keeping that why, even in the midst of trying to balance all of this, if we can communicate 214 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:10,600 to our audience now that we know, you know, exactly, you know, the, the direct and indirect audiences, 215 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,480 how can we, how can we take what we've learned and how can we take the curriculum that we have 216 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:22,760 and really determine the marketing piece to this? And I think that that strategic tree helped us focus 217 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,920 on, you know, what actions are we going to take to achieve this? I remember them asking the question, 218 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:32,360 and we just all started doing these brainstorming techniques inside there. And basically, you know, 219 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:38,840 we came up with making sure that we create and develop relevant resources that in this case, 220 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:44,360 that can be updated regularly because we know the statistics are changing, things are happening. 221 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:50,920 And so that online version, that opportunity to have templates where we can get in there and digitally 222 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:56,760 change it without having to have to publish a hard copy and, and deal with a hard published version of 223 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:03,160 what we've had in the past, but have that online version where at any time, you know, as statistics 224 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,560 change, as new methods or different things come up that we can help for prevention education, 225 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:15,080 we're able to go back in and be able to alter this and change it up. But yeah, I, I, I love, I mean, 226 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,880 I mean, the, the concept of trying to balance it all with everything else going on, if we could just 227 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,360 keep, and I think if we're understanding your question right there, if we can just keep at the 228 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:29,880 level of, this is the why this is necessary, how are we aligning it to the health standards? And, 229 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,680 and like Kristen mentioned, in South Africa, we had to switch and, you know, 230 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:40,040 we couldn't quite get into their standards at that level. So we started understanding where are their 231 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:45,720 standards? Where are we to contextualize? And they were doing it through life orientation classes. 232 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,280 So we took our, our basic understanding of what we have for prevention education, 233 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,560 and then aligned it to meet their needs and their language of how they present it in the classroom. 234 00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:01,240 So it's just an ever changing, who's the audience? And here's our product, our product pretty much 235 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,440 stays the same, but then we contextualize along this journey. 236 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:11,560 It sounds like you're able to really take advantage of the soft and software, like to make those, 237 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,720 you know, those little adjustments and tweaks in a way that maybe, you know, like you said, 238 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,280 would be a lot more time consuming or difficult to distribute as a hard copy. So. 239 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:27,240 Absolutely. And, you know, the, the thing about, I, I, for me, I can personally say as an education 240 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:32,200 specialist for a 21 and somebody that's been sitting in the seat of education as a curriculum 241 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:41,720 specialist for 30 something years is we, we didn't have to look at digital and online versions the way 242 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:48,200 we have to today. So our mind shifts have to change. We know that that is reaching our students. We know 243 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:55,800 that that's one avenue of venue that, you know, the space for a 21, we haven't sat in and worked that 244 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:04,120 course of action. And so this, this whole opportunity with pivotal acts and, and taking us to the next 245 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:10,280 level will truly help us reach beyond what we ever asked or imagine of understanding for our students 246 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,320 and our educators. 247 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:19,960 That's great. I had one question, you know, when we were talking to Ellie, who is the director of 248 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,560 pivotal act and she had mentioned, you know, working with a 21 and, and we were kind of in a discussion 249 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:32,600 with her about software development and designing a product and thinking through, you know, the kind 250 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:39,160 of unintended consequences that can occur and how important it is to really think through those very, 251 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:45,400 very carefully when you're designing a product for a program such as yours, because you know, 252 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:52,040 you're dealing with such a sensitive and a sensitive topic and, you know, people's lives are at stake. 253 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:59,240 So I wondered if, if there were any moments in your design process, thinking through this product 254 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:06,280 when, you know, you thought you'd kind of go down one road and then realized, oh, we probably shouldn't 255 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,160 go that direction because it could lead to X, Y, and Z. Is there anything like that? 256 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:17,080 Yeah. I think it was, if I can remember as we were processing that, that mitigation, 257 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:23,800 the risks and mitigation and unintended consequences. And one of them really struck home for me was 258 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:30,040 thinking about students socially and economically disadvantaged as we go down this path and knowing 259 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:36,920 that we're going to have to find alternative ways. So for that, it was, you know, we assumed maybe X was 260 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:44,520 our user, but maybe it's really why that was our user. And so thinking about how to go into the hybrid 261 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:50,600 manner, thinking about the sensitivity within it, how, how do you, you know, make sure there's protocols 262 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:57,240 set up for, you know, disclosure as, as, as such a sensitive topic, you know, so we were backtracking on a 263 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:03,960 few ways of pushing forward and then kind of, you know, hitting roadblock of, you know, we need to make sure that if 264 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:09,720 we're going to put this kind of content out there, that we make sure there's reporting and protocols and disclosure 265 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:18,680 information, making sure that, you know, I think one of the, is probably a risk factor was also if the lack of 266 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:24,520 effective distribution, you know, if we're going to create this product, we need to have a plan in place now for how to 267 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:30,040 distribute this and distribute it into the schools and what's the best ways. So that's something else we're 268 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,240 looking for future opportunities to be able to do. 269 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:39,880 Yeah. On that, I also thought it was interesting just following what Valerie was saying. There was a 270 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:46,120 point where we were talking about how you remove the barriers for accessibility for educators to be 271 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:53,240 able to get this material. And we also talked about if students would have direct access to it. And just 272 00:26:53,240 --> 00:27:00,840 through the conversations, realizing how easy it is for the wrong person to access material, whether 273 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,760 they're too young and the materials too old, or they don't have the proper support system that they need, 274 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:12,040 if they need to make a report, or if they're in a dangerous situation, viewing the material in their own 275 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:17,400 home with at home schooling that's happening right now. So I think those were all really interesting 276 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:23,000 conversations that you wouldn't necessarily think of when you're starting, because your motivation 277 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:29,240 is good. Like, let's get this important information out to everyone, but realizing that there has to be 278 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:35,560 safety and protocols and structure to that. And just making sure that we do our due diligence 279 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,400 up front to avoid any unintended consequences that we can. 280 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,880 Yes. Those school networks are not entirely. I think my daughter had an issue recently where someone's 281 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:51,480 accounts got, some kids got hacked through, I think a video gaming service or something, but then all of a 282 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,880 sudden he's in there, someone's in her Google meet posting profanity. And it's like, yeah, you realize 283 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:01,720 some of these schools, these systems are great for certain stuff, but the more sensitive you get, the more 284 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,640 you probably want to, the, you know, browsing histories are stored forever, basically at the administrators. 285 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:13,640 Yes. And even some of our videos, you know, our videos, there's some that if they're watching 286 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:20,680 online and online version, knowing that they may have a younger brother, sibling, a sister that could 287 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:26,280 be viewing something that was not intended for them. So, you know, making sure that we have, you know, 288 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:31,720 as before they start to watch this video, we have disclosures pop up and help them understand that 289 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:38,360 we're getting not disclosure, but situations pop up to let them know that we have content that might be 290 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,240 not viewed by all. So to check your surroundings, you know, things like that, we started to have 291 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:49,560 conversations about, especially if it goes to the online version way of how do you keep from having 292 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,720 younger eyes, not see what some of the upper grades might see. 293 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,360 And I wanted to ask too, because you both had mentioned previously, some of the, 294 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:06,360 the difficulties might not be the word, but the complexities, I guess, of working across different 295 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:11,320 geographies and different countries. And I'm guessing, you know, there are laws around data, 296 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,680 there are data regulations. There's all sorts, especially with sensitive data, there's all sorts of 297 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:20,680 different systems in place in different parts of the world. How do you balance working with that? 298 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,720 Just generally, I mean, in terms of there's the cultural aspect, and then there's the 299 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,520 regulatory aspect. I'm just curious how you guys think about balancing that as, 300 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,160 as you engage or try to do something in a different geography. 301 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:41,320 Our organization is global. So we do work in countries and collect data in different countries. So 302 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:48,200 usually what we do is look at GDPR and kind of the most strict area that we're in and then apply that 303 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:55,560 rule across the board. So we definitely work on that with compliance and making sure that everything is 304 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:01,240 in order. But it is a challenge to like constantly be keeping up with the differences in the different 305 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:07,640 locations and to just make sure that we're doing everything in the way that we need to for security. 306 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:15,080 And we do have coordinators in each one of the countries, reach coordinators that really start 307 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:22,120 to look at in the education field, what are, who are the key players and what it, what protocol is in 308 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:30,280 place for schools and how do they get their resources into schools and especially looking at where it fits 309 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:36,920 best as far as the, like I said, life orientation, the content delivery of it. And then, you know, 310 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:43,320 we have had to go into countries and set up a memorandum of understanding, basically just setting up 311 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:51,160 opportunities that we make sure that we have it covered on our end of the content delivery and how 312 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:56,680 this goes about and making sure that it speaks the language of each country and the rules and regulations 313 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:57,720 for them. 314 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,920 All right, cool. Yeah. I always think back to, we had a customer, a case study a while ago, 315 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:08,840 that was a GM and they were talking about how all of a sudden the Chinese data regulation changed. 316 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:14,200 And within a year, basically everything had to be hosted in mainland China. And this was for an 317 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:19,320 infotainment system. So it was, it was like, okay, one day we're, this is the operating procedure. 318 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:25,000 The next day we have to figure out how to trends or how to, you know, basically migrate all of this 319 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,960 stuff to China and in a very condensed timeframe. It's like, you're right. These, like you said, 320 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:35,160 just take, sometimes just taking the strictest regulation and assuming that'll do, it might be the 321 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:42,120 the safest way to keep yourself out of, you know, out of harm's way or out of issues going forward. 322 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:48,040 I guess one thing that I, I was curious about, Valerie, you mentioned earlier, you know, doing 323 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:54,920 this exercise to identify outcomes versus output. And I wondered like, what are those outcomes that 324 00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,120 you all are working towards? Like, what are those, those top goals? And I'm wondering how you're measuring 325 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:05,240 them just given that you are global and what we've been talking about, you know, just in terms of data, 326 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:11,720 like, like, are you, yeah. How, how do you, how do you know if human trafficking is being reduced or 327 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,960 how do you, like, how do you figure that out? 328 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:21,320 Well, I think, and Kristen might speak better on this because we do have reports all the time that we're 329 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:30,040 currently trying to keep records of. But I think for us is identifying, you know, ultimately being able 330 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:36,360 to identify the number of cases, maybe confirmed in an area that once we've established and our 331 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:42,840 resources are in that area, then maybe keep track of what were the numbers before. And then as we go 332 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,800 through these programs with communities and with schools, you know, the number of cases confirmed, 333 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:54,120 maybe the number of hotlines called. However, we know that when they've been informed and they've 334 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,520 gone through prevention, that the numbers might rise, you know, right at the beginning, because, 335 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,800 you know, they're all aware now. So trying to look at those, you know, in the schools, number of 336 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:10,280 engaged, maybe it's, we call A-teens, but number of engaged programs that are now established. 337 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,400 That was one of the things that we talked about when we looked at some solutions and some outcomes 338 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,280 that might could, could occur through the work that we've done with Pivotal. A number of trained 339 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:26,200 educators, number of implementation of, of what we have with number of students, you know, impacted, 340 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,800 those kinds of things. But Kristen, I don't know, maybe you might be able to help. 341 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:35,480 Yeah, I would, I would just add to that. It's been really great working with different universities 342 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:41,800 studies and doing longitudinal studies and just starting to really evaluate from a research-based 343 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:48,680 perspective, our programs and the impact that they're having. And then we also are able to collect 344 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:57,160 different testimonies and stories as we go. And so just knowing that one student who went through our 345 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:03,480 education program was able to recognize when someone tried to recruit her on an online social media 346 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,920 platform after, um, she made a report and then there was a police investigation opened up to look into 347 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:17,000 it. So I think those stories that come out over time are really what motivates us as well, because we know 348 00:34:17,720 --> 00:34:23,080 that it matters. Like the one person, the one student who's educated, the one person who isn't trafficked, 349 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:29,480 that's what it's about. And so we do our due diligence in measuring the numbers and getting all of the 350 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:35,160 quantitative data in. But I think the qualitative testimonies and stories that come out of it are 351 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:42,680 really what motivates us to keep going as well. Yeah, absolutely. It was, it was definitely in that 352 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,400 time of working with that metrics. I remember thinking, okay, can't just look in one area. We 353 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:53,560 need to look at awareness, engagement, the resources. So that was a pivotal moment too, 354 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:59,240 is to making sure that we're expanding our ability to what are the outcomes in all of these areas. And, 355 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:05,240 and I know that we started, you know, taking notes and changing some of the ways that we're trying to, 356 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:10,440 in the future, as we start these pilot programs, collect this data and then measure it along this, 357 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:16,920 along this journey. That's great. All right. Seems like a good place to end it. 358 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,520 Yeah. Thanks so much for joining us today. Really been great to speak with you both. 359 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:27,160 Thank you. For sure. Yeah. Thank you guys.