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Welcome, listeners, to the Cloud and Culture podcast.

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Here is the quick background on the show.

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I am Derek Harris from VMware.

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And I am Danielle Burrow from VMware.

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And this podcast is focused on VMware Pivotal Labs

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and the work done by our team of experts

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to help organizations ranging from startups

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to the Fortune 500 shift their software development

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into high gear.

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As the title suggests, that entails modernizing

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and sometimes just kickstarting software development

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and tooling, as well as helping clients create a culture

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that will allow them to run efficient,

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self-sufficient software development teams for the long term.

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And our guest this week is Hedy Stern,

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a manager at VMware Pivotal Labs in Boston.

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She's helped a lot of organizations implement

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and excel at agile software development

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and has a strong sense of what good looks like.

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And sometimes, as you'll hear in the discussion,

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doing agile well means putting aside

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some strongly held assumptions.

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Yeah, and one of the major things we discuss

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is the importance of clear communication

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around goals, business value,

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and when a project can be considered done.

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This is especially important as organizations grow

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and there's more opportunity for information

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to fall through the cracks.

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Sometimes good enough is good enough

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and there is such a thing as too much autonomy.

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So listen to the episode to hear Hedy's views

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on the state of agile development and organizations.

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If you're intrigued, visit tanzu.vmware.com slash labs

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to learn more about how we can help.

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All right, Hedy, so just to kick things off,

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can you give listeners a quick intro on yourself,

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what you do at VMware?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Thanks for having me.

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So my role at VMware is really leading product teams

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and helping make sure that we are meeting

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the software delivery needs of our teams and our clients.

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So it's leading teams of product managers,

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designers, and software engineers

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as we work towards important milestones and goals.

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And I know that agile is a big part of the way we work

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and the way we help our customers build software.

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And one of the things we wanted to discuss

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is kind of the struggle to do agile effectively.

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You know, I think there's a lot of folks

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who think they're doing agile,

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but it's not really working out for them.

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And we find that, you know,

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maybe they're not really doing agile.

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And I wondered if you could just explain,

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like, what does good agile look like?

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And maybe too, like, what are some areas

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where things get off track?

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Yeah, that is a wonderful, broad question.

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And I'm going to take it in this direction here,

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which is, I think the biggest threat to agile these days

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is around the difference between planning enough

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and planning too much.

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So the biggest conflict that I see with our clients

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that have so deeply embraced agile

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is that they are being so agile

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that they're unable to actually plan.

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And that is really frustrating their champions,

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their leadership and their champions

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that believe that agile can make high quality software

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and they believe in autonomous teams

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and psychologically safe teams.

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But at the highest level,

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they're also operating a business.

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And so where agile right now is failing the most

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is when people are using agile

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as a reason not to plan into the future,

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are using agile as a reason not to define done, actually.

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And that definition between MVP to done

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is where we really need to refocus our practices

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and make sure we're supporting our customers.

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Can you walk a little bit more clearly through,

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like, or elaborate, I guess, on that point?

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Like, so what is that gap between MVP and done?

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Because I often hear it said,

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and I'm no agile expert, okay,

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but I often hear it said that,

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you know, this is never done.

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It's always ongoing.

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I hear that language a lot.

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So I'm like, what is done as far as you're concerned?

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Yeah.

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I do think I tend to take scandalous opinions

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and this might be one of my scandalous opinions

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that are not necessarily going according to everyone else.

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But there are the different users and consumers

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of the software we build, right?

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There's the end user,

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that is the person that's going to be using the software

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to do something.

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Then there's the customer,

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the person that is paying for this software.

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So for example, like, for example,

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I'm going to talk about a big retail client

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that we worked with essentially, right?

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They were trying to increase people

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that went from checkout to,

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like, that completed their checkout process, right?

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And so the end user of that software is,

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like, the,

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it is the person that's, like,

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buying something from this retailer, right?

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But the customer of our product of the software

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is actually, you're saying,

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oh, a customer, obviously it's the end user.

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Like, no, the customer of the software

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is the retailer that's making an investment

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in the checkout flow.

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And they don't want to just invest

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in the checkout flow endlessly.

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They have lots of other priorities

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that they're balancing.

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And so it is and was frustrating to them

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to figure out the transition

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between understanding,

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hey, we are working on this checkout flow

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and we're experimenting over three months

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about making sure we're actually improving

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the rate of checkout

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with our usability changes.

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That's great,

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but, like,

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there's a diminishing returns

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in every move we make there.

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And for that,

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the,

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the VP

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or SVP

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of that retail organization,

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they really need

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to think

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about an entire portfolio.

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And so one of the things

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that's so limiting

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about Agile

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is you don't get

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that higher level view

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because you're so close

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to the user.

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And,

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and so what we need

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to make sure leaders

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are doing

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is communicating

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what the business needs

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and communicating

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with the trade-offs

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and why a team

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might grow in size

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or shrink in size

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or go into maintenance mode,

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which is a scandalous

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thing to be.

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I think,

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you know,

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I also think about

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our federal customers

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and you've probably

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heard stories,

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but let me repeat this one.

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It's pretty amazing.

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You know,

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if you look at

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some of the work we've,

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that we've done

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with the Air Force,

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essentially,

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working in an Agile way

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has replaced

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$10 billion programs.

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So,

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essentially,

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the way the Air Force

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traditionally bought software,

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they bought everything

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up front

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and now

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we have replaced

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that program

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with airmen themselves

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actually being part

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of building

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the software themselves,

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figuring out

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what the users want

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and deploying

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first releases

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early

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within 60 days,

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100 days,

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120 days

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and creating

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a new system

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for the Air Force

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to use

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and essentially

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replacing a $10 billion program.

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that's amazing.

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But while we are

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replacing that program,

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the Air Force

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is still,

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you know,

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sometimes using

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the old program as well

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and they need a sense

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from us of like,

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hey,

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when can we turn off

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the old version

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that we're using?

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So,

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when are we getting to

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this is enough,

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this is done

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and turning off

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the old version

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that we're using?

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Who's responsible

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for driving that?

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because it seems

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kind of like,

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you know,

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if I spent

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a big part

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of my career

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covering as a reporter

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like the,

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I guess what I'm now

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called the Fang companies,

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but back then

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they were just

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the big web companies,

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but they seem

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to always optimize

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for that extra

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tenth of a degree

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of or tenth

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of a percent

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of performance.

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but it sounds

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like what you're

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saying is,

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for most businesses,

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especially like a retailer,

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a tenth of a degree

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or a tenth of a percentage

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of performance increase

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on your checkout flow

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or however you're

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measuring that,

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yeah,

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like it's at some point

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the effort to do that

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is not worth it,

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right?

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So is that the business?

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Is that the product manager?

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Like who has to communicate

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to the developers,

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hey,

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back off,

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this thing is done,

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who actually owns that?

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Yeah.

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We have started

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a new practice

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among our product

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management teams

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which is essentially

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around product valuation.

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We're calling it

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PMonomics.

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One of our team members,

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Cara May,

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and another one,

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Susie,

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have really led this.

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I believe they might have,

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they've not done a webinar

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on this just yet,

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but it should be

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00:08:21,780 --> 00:08:22,400
our next webinar.

295
00:08:22,580 --> 00:08:23,160
It's really awesome.

296
00:08:23,340 --> 00:08:24,200
It's a practice

297
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:25,400
around how can we

298
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:26,420
help product managers

299
00:08:26,420 --> 00:08:27,480
communicate the value

300
00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:27,960
of the software

301
00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:28,560
they're building

302
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:29,820
both to their teams

303
00:08:29,820 --> 00:08:30,480
and the return

304
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:31,100
on the investment

305
00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:32,000
of what they're building

306
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,040
both to their teams

307
00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,340
and to their leadership.

308
00:08:34,980 --> 00:08:36,440
So this is something

309
00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:37,180
that we believe

310
00:08:37,180 --> 00:08:38,020
autonomous teams

311
00:08:38,020 --> 00:08:39,000
should be thinking about.

312
00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:40,940
At the same time,

313
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:43,720
an autonomous team

314
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:44,220
can't be left

315
00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:44,640
to do this

316
00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:45,180
on their own.

317
00:08:46,460 --> 00:08:47,360
And I really like

318
00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:48,380
the point you started

319
00:08:48,380 --> 00:08:49,200
to speak about

320
00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,000
with like the

321
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,580
traditional FANG companies

322
00:08:52,580 --> 00:08:54,660
versus everyone else,

323
00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:54,980
right?

324
00:08:55,220 --> 00:08:56,140
Those are like

325
00:08:56,140 --> 00:08:57,780
consumer-facing companies

326
00:08:57,780 --> 00:08:59,340
with hundreds

327
00:08:59,340 --> 00:08:59,940
of millions

328
00:08:59,940 --> 00:09:00,900
of users,

329
00:09:01,140 --> 00:09:01,400
right?

330
00:09:01,540 --> 00:09:02,280
Billions of users.

331
00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:02,680
I don't know

332
00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:03,780
the exact numbers,

333
00:09:03,900 --> 00:09:04,460
but it's got to be

334
00:09:04,460 --> 00:09:05,040
up there, right?

335
00:09:05,260 --> 00:09:06,300
And I was just

336
00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:07,100
on a walk

337
00:09:07,100 --> 00:09:08,120
right before this

338
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,120
with a friend

339
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:09,660
of mine,

340
00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:10,240
Adam,

341
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:11,220
who is a product

342
00:09:11,220 --> 00:09:12,240
manager at Spotify,

343
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:14,280
an x-labs pivot.

344
00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:15,500
Totally awesome.

345
00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:17,280
And we were talking

346
00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:17,940
about the differences

347
00:09:17,940 --> 00:09:19,380
in our experience

348
00:09:19,380 --> 00:09:21,820
around how to iterate.

349
00:09:22,220 --> 00:09:22,900
What does iteration

350
00:09:22,900 --> 00:09:23,940
mean at a company

351
00:09:23,940 --> 00:09:24,720
like Spotify

352
00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,840
versus Dick's

353
00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:27,480
Sporting Goods,

354
00:09:27,820 --> 00:09:27,980
right?

355
00:09:28,020 --> 00:09:28,700
What does iteration

356
00:09:28,700 --> 00:09:29,920
mean at a company

357
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:31,360
like Spotify

358
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:32,440
or Facebook

359
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,140
versus a government

360
00:09:35,140 --> 00:09:36,440
project that really

361
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,020
only has 100 users

362
00:09:38,020 --> 00:09:38,520
that will ever

363
00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:39,200
touch it anyway

364
00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:40,360
or an internal

365
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:41,300
financial services

366
00:09:41,300 --> 00:09:42,760
tool that is

367
00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:43,620
really important

368
00:09:43,620 --> 00:09:45,320
to 20 people

369
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,160
and runs a huge

370
00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:48,040
book of business

371
00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:49,220
but only 20 people

372
00:09:49,220 --> 00:09:49,860
are going to use it.

373
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:50,380
And how do you

374
00:09:50,380 --> 00:09:51,180
experiment and how

375
00:09:51,180 --> 00:09:51,720
do you iterate

376
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:52,360
and how do you

377
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:53,120
user test

378
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:54,840
when you can run

379
00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:55,520
an experiment

380
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,160
with 10 million

381
00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:58,160
people versus

382
00:09:58,160 --> 00:09:59,080
running an experiment

383
00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:00,420
with one or two?

384
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,060
And I think

385
00:10:02,060 --> 00:10:03,800
the challenge

386
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:04,920
for a lot of our

387
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:06,040
clients is hearing

388
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:06,900
the excitement

389
00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:08,080
of big data

390
00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:08,820
and the ability

391
00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:10,120
to test and iterate

392
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:11,280
but struggling

393
00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:11,920
to figure out

394
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:12,960
how to apply it

395
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,240
to smaller user bases.

396
00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:15,340
And I think

397
00:10:15,340 --> 00:10:15,960
in a lot of ways

398
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:16,620
that comparison

399
00:10:16,620 --> 00:10:17,660
isn't really fair.

400
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:19,040
It ultimately

401
00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:20,960
is setting up

402
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:21,940
the average

403
00:10:21,940 --> 00:10:22,960
software development

404
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:23,400
team

405
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,100
to feel frustrated

406
00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:26,640
to try to look

407
00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:27,160
for data

408
00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:27,580
where there

409
00:10:27,580 --> 00:10:28,280
isn't enough

410
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:28,740
to make

411
00:10:28,740 --> 00:10:30,220
decisions, right?

412
00:10:30,340 --> 00:10:30,840
And I think

413
00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:31,360
one of the things

414
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:32,020
that we look

415
00:10:32,020 --> 00:10:33,740
for in all

416
00:10:33,740 --> 00:10:34,380
of our teams

417
00:10:34,380 --> 00:10:35,240
and all of our

418
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:35,960
hiring processes

419
00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:37,300
is someone

420
00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:38,060
that is able

421
00:10:38,060 --> 00:10:39,060
to make a decision

422
00:10:39,060 --> 00:10:39,620
with limited

423
00:10:39,620 --> 00:10:40,200
information,

424
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:41,120
just make a decision

425
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:41,700
and kind of

426
00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:42,440
move forward

427
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,920
because the magic

428
00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:45,440
of Agile

429
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:46,280
is not in making

430
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:46,980
the right decision,

431
00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:48,060
it is in changing

432
00:10:48,060 --> 00:10:48,520
the decision

433
00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:49,100
you've made.

434
00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:50,120
But we have

435
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:50,760
to do more

436
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:51,380
around making

437
00:10:51,380 --> 00:10:52,280
that initial decision.

438
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:52,920
We have to do

439
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:53,720
more around

440
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,140
describing what good

441
00:10:55,140 --> 00:10:55,560
looks like,

442
00:10:55,660 --> 00:10:56,360
describing what great

443
00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:56,720
looks like,

444
00:10:56,780 --> 00:10:57,440
describing what done

445
00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:57,800
looks like,

446
00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:58,600
even if it's wrong

447
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,080
and changing our

448
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,460
work along the way

449
00:11:01,460 --> 00:11:02,660
rather than getting

450
00:11:02,660 --> 00:11:03,960
stuck trying to get

451
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:04,900
it right or not

452
00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:05,700
planning because we

453
00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:06,280
don't know.

454
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:07,520
Oh, and only if we

455
00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:08,080
had known.

456
00:11:08,260 --> 00:11:08,920
Oh, if only we

457
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:09,900
defer the decision,

458
00:11:10,540 --> 00:11:11,900
then it'll be better.

459
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:13,960
Then we'll get

460
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:14,760
a better outcome.

461
00:11:15,340 --> 00:11:16,440
I think we've gone

462
00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:17,260
a little too far

463
00:11:17,260 --> 00:11:18,600
and our clients

464
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:19,700
need us to

465
00:11:19,700 --> 00:11:20,960
help them

466
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:21,920
balance

467
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:23,120
planning

468
00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:24,300
and

469
00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:25,760
collection of

470
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:26,080
data

471
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:27,140
and thinking about

472
00:11:27,140 --> 00:11:28,180
return on investment.

473
00:11:28,660 --> 00:11:29,320
But also,

474
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:30,640
our clients need

475
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,180
help thinking about

476
00:11:32,180 --> 00:11:33,100
when is it time

477
00:11:33,100 --> 00:11:34,380
to stop something?

478
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:35,380
When is it time

479
00:11:35,380 --> 00:11:36,880
to rethink?

480
00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:38,440
Maybe you're not

481
00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:39,000
going to get enough

482
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,180
information around

483
00:11:40,180 --> 00:11:41,780
if this is still

484
00:11:41,780 --> 00:11:42,500
worth the investment.

485
00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:44,100
Yeah, that makes

486
00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:44,640
a lot of sense.

487
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:45,640
And, you know,

488
00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:46,420
thinking about

489
00:11:46,420 --> 00:11:48,360
the kind of

490
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:49,340
medical or the

491
00:11:49,340 --> 00:11:50,120
health crisis that

492
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:50,740
we're in now

493
00:11:50,740 --> 00:11:51,600
with the pandemic

494
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,560
and, you know,

495
00:11:53,620 --> 00:11:54,220
being able to

496
00:11:54,220 --> 00:11:55,360
change on the fly

497
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:56,500
is one of the

498
00:11:56,500 --> 00:11:57,860
most wonderful

499
00:11:57,860 --> 00:11:58,680
things about being

500
00:11:58,680 --> 00:11:59,120
agile.

501
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:00,060
But you're right,

502
00:12:00,140 --> 00:12:01,340
like, if you can't

503
00:12:01,340 --> 00:12:02,240
plan or you can't

504
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:03,220
define what done

505
00:12:03,220 --> 00:12:05,240
is, then it's

506
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:05,740
definitely, it

507
00:12:05,740 --> 00:12:06,760
definitely sounds

508
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:07,720
like you're kind

509
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:08,240
of walking a

510
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:08,780
tightrope.

511
00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,340
So what is that

512
00:12:10,340 --> 00:12:10,780
balance?

513
00:12:10,820 --> 00:12:11,240
Like, what does

514
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:11,960
that look like?

515
00:12:12,020 --> 00:12:12,920
Do you have,

516
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:14,000
have you seen

517
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,660
any teams that

518
00:12:15,660 --> 00:12:16,020
have been able

519
00:12:16,020 --> 00:12:16,520
to pull this

520
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:17,160
off and that

521
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:17,620
are doing this

522
00:12:17,620 --> 00:12:17,860
well?

523
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:19,640
I've seen

524
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:20,480
quite a few

525
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:20,960
teams, actually,

526
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:21,440
that have really

527
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:22,540
done an excellent

528
00:12:22,540 --> 00:12:23,580
job with this.

529
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:24,080
And I think it

530
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:24,960
really comes down

531
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:25,540
to strong

532
00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:25,980
leadership.

533
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:27,720
Strong leadership

534
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:29,660
that can support

535
00:12:29,660 --> 00:12:30,800
autonomous teams

536
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:31,660
with clear

537
00:12:31,660 --> 00:12:32,840
business goals.

538
00:12:33,460 --> 00:12:34,380
So, for

539
00:12:34,380 --> 00:12:35,580
example,

540
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:37,680
we have a

541
00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:38,320
story with a

542
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:38,920
government client

543
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:39,420
that was working

544
00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:40,500
to replace

545
00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:41,520
a legacy

546
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:42,300
system.

547
00:12:42,460 --> 00:12:43,020
A true

548
00:12:43,020 --> 00:12:43,960
refactor,

549
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:44,700
rebuild,

550
00:12:45,060 --> 00:12:45,640
modernization

551
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:46,120
story.

552
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:46,440
It was a

553
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:47,080
combination of

554
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:47,740
all of those

555
00:12:47,740 --> 00:12:49,920
pieces of

556
00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:50,840
modernizing

557
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:51,640
software and

558
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:52,300
creating a new

559
00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:53,100
user experience.

560
00:12:54,060 --> 00:12:54,560
One of the

561
00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:55,460
things that they

562
00:12:55,460 --> 00:12:56,640
did, they

563
00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:57,460
did traditional

564
00:12:57,460 --> 00:12:58,180
planning, they

565
00:12:58,180 --> 00:12:58,600
did some,

566
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:00,220
they did user

567
00:13:00,220 --> 00:13:01,460
research, all

568
00:13:01,460 --> 00:13:01,960
of the pieces

569
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:02,600
that you would

570
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:03,240
expect.

571
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:04,420
One of the

572
00:13:04,420 --> 00:13:05,180
magical things

573
00:13:05,180 --> 00:13:05,560
that I really

574
00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:05,980
felt like they

575
00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:06,700
did was they

576
00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:07,960
were directing

577
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:08,780
in their weekly

578
00:13:08,780 --> 00:13:09,180
demos.

579
00:13:09,820 --> 00:13:11,120
So, the

580
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,160
head lead

581
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:14,620
on the

582
00:13:14,620 --> 00:13:15,640
project, the

583
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:16,460
person ultimately

584
00:13:16,460 --> 00:13:17,340
responsible for

585
00:13:17,340 --> 00:13:18,400
its success or

586
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,060
failure, joined

587
00:13:20,060 --> 00:13:21,420
the software

588
00:13:21,420 --> 00:13:22,160
demos, which

589
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:22,600
were held

590
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:23,300
regularly,

591
00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:24,880
provided a

592
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:25,740
script ahead of

593
00:13:25,740 --> 00:13:26,440
time about

594
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:27,640
expected behavior

595
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:28,700
and what was

596
00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:29,220
supposed to work

597
00:13:29,220 --> 00:13:30,200
where and how,

598
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:31,820
and helped,

599
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:33,020
didn't prescribe

600
00:13:33,020 --> 00:13:34,380
exactly how to

601
00:13:34,380 --> 00:13:35,220
get there, but the

602
00:13:35,220 --> 00:13:36,920
activities someone

603
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:37,720
needs to be able

604
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:38,420
to do to

605
00:13:38,420 --> 00:13:39,480
replace or turn

606
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:40,100
off an old

607
00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:40,540
system that

608
00:13:40,540 --> 00:13:41,140
might be costing

609
00:13:41,140 --> 00:13:41,840
someone a lot

610
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:42,160
of money.

611
00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:43,740
So, that is

612
00:13:43,740 --> 00:13:44,600
like a small

613
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,360
thing, but it's

614
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:47,940
exemplary around

615
00:13:47,940 --> 00:13:49,900
a leader that

616
00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:52,040
understands the

617
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:52,900
high-level

618
00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:55,700
details around

619
00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:56,600
what a team

620
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:57,800
needs to do to

621
00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:58,220
be able to

622
00:13:58,220 --> 00:13:59,020
declare success.

623
00:13:59,280 --> 00:13:59,960
And they're

624
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:00,760
ready to declare

625
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:01,480
that success when

626
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:02,900
it happens, but

627
00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:05,380
they're not

628
00:14:05,380 --> 00:14:06,000
leaving a lot

629
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:06,520
to chance.

630
00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:07,280
they're actively

631
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:08,220
engaged in

632
00:14:08,220 --> 00:14:08,820
making sure that

633
00:14:08,820 --> 00:14:09,220
it's happening

634
00:14:09,220 --> 00:14:09,800
all the time.

635
00:14:10,180 --> 00:14:10,640
So, I think

636
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:11,740
leaders that can

637
00:14:11,740 --> 00:14:12,280
bring in that

638
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:13,200
active engagement

639
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:14,660
but not telling

640
00:14:14,660 --> 00:14:15,600
a team necessarily

641
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,120
how to do it

642
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:17,980
or what colors

643
00:14:17,980 --> 00:14:19,020
to use or

644
00:14:19,020 --> 00:14:20,140
what field

645
00:14:20,140 --> 00:14:20,840
goes on what

646
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,140
screen, that

647
00:14:22,140 --> 00:14:22,700
is the wrong

648
00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:23,900
level of

649
00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:25,280
participation from

650
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:25,620
leadership.

651
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:26,740
Rather,

652
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,660
giving the

653
00:14:29,660 --> 00:14:30,560
guidelines, giving

654
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:31,500
the goals, and

655
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:32,080
letting people get

656
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:32,880
there, that's a

657
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:33,340
better way.

658
00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:34,960
A lot of our

659
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:36,160
teams actually

660
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:36,840
experiment with

661
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:37,480
growth boards

662
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:38,220
which are

663
00:14:38,220 --> 00:14:39,300
essentially trying

664
00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:41,120
to model the

665
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:42,480
startup experience.

666
00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:43,340
So, a growth

667
00:14:43,340 --> 00:14:43,860
board might be

668
00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:44,540
held quarterly

669
00:14:44,540 --> 00:14:46,620
or semi-annually

670
00:14:46,620 --> 00:14:48,580
or biannually,

671
00:14:49,140 --> 00:14:51,240
essentially asking

672
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:52,520
each stream or

673
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:53,460
team to come

674
00:14:53,460 --> 00:14:54,300
with, to make a

675
00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:55,100
case for why they

676
00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:55,760
should continue to

677
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:56,160
get funded.

678
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:57,980
And that can also

679
00:14:57,980 --> 00:14:59,560
be a really great

680
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:00,320
way to make sure

681
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:00,900
we're measuring

682
00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:02,080
that ROI and

683
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:03,520
comparing teams.

684
00:15:04,060 --> 00:15:04,900
They also get

685
00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:06,120
to ask for

686
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,280
additional resources

687
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:08,500
or make certain

688
00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:09,060
recommendations.

689
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:09,800
But I think

690
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,740
that falls a

691
00:15:11,740 --> 00:15:12,400
little short

692
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:13,900
when you have

693
00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:14,620
different levels

694
00:15:14,620 --> 00:15:15,280
of product

695
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:15,720
management

696
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:16,860
capabilities across

697
00:15:16,860 --> 00:15:17,240
the different

698
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:18,040
teams because

699
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,640
not every

700
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:21,360
individual team

701
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:21,720
is going to

702
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:22,420
understand their

703
00:15:22,420 --> 00:15:23,300
relative importance

704
00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:23,800
in the larger

705
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:24,240
picture.

706
00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:25,300
And so,

707
00:15:25,420 --> 00:15:26,140
ultimately, again,

708
00:15:26,140 --> 00:15:26,640
it's up to

709
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:27,340
leaders to really

710
00:15:27,340 --> 00:15:28,060
gather the best

711
00:15:28,060 --> 00:15:28,720
information they

712
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,280
can and make

713
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:30,860
some of those

714
00:15:30,860 --> 00:15:31,560
harder business

715
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:32,640
decisions and

716
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:33,940
spread those more

717
00:15:33,940 --> 00:15:35,240
explicitly as

718
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:36,340
loudly as we

719
00:15:36,340 --> 00:15:36,600
can.

720
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:37,020
And one thing

721
00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:37,480
that I found

722
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:38,280
with teams as

723
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:39,500
a leader is

724
00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:41,760
telling teams

725
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,680
things once is

726
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:44,260
just the beginning.

727
00:15:45,060 --> 00:15:45,920
So, for example,

728
00:15:46,020 --> 00:15:46,680
a lot of our

729
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:47,440
clients are using

730
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:48,500
OKRs around

731
00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:48,940
their business

732
00:15:48,940 --> 00:15:49,540
objectives,

733
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,120
objective and

734
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:51,640
key results.

735
00:15:51,740 --> 00:15:52,280
So, ultimately,

736
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:53,540
our objective is

737
00:15:53,540 --> 00:15:54,420
to be able to

738
00:15:54,420 --> 00:15:55,100
complete this

739
00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:55,420
mission.

740
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:56,760
And the key

741
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:57,980
results that,

742
00:15:58,140 --> 00:15:58,680
you know,

743
00:15:58,720 --> 00:15:59,880
this type of

744
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:00,540
person can,

745
00:16:01,260 --> 00:16:01,560
you know,

746
00:16:01,780 --> 00:16:02,840
let's use the

747
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:03,740
example of

748
00:16:03,740 --> 00:16:04,920
writing a book

749
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:05,220
report,

750
00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:05,640
ultimately,

751
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:06,180
right?

752
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:07,080
So, the

753
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:08,400
objective is

754
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:08,960
that the

755
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:09,660
whole class

756
00:16:09,660 --> 00:16:10,740
hears your

757
00:16:10,740 --> 00:16:11,720
summary of

758
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:11,960
the book

759
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:12,220
report.

760
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:12,720
And I'm

761
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:13,040
using the

762
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:13,380
book report

763
00:16:13,380 --> 00:16:14,420
because that's

764
00:16:14,420 --> 00:16:15,140
a lot of

765
00:16:15,140 --> 00:16:17,140
what our

766
00:16:17,140 --> 00:16:17,480
teams are

767
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:17,980
trying to do,

768
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:18,180
right?

769
00:16:18,180 --> 00:16:18,480
They're trying

770
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:18,980
to share

771
00:16:18,980 --> 00:16:19,380
data.

772
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:20,020
And that

773
00:16:20,020 --> 00:16:20,700
data is not

774
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:21,460
always constructed

775
00:16:21,460 --> 00:16:22,340
in a really

776
00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:23,160
clear way.

777
00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:24,160
So, I like

778
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:24,640
the example

779
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:25,100
of a book

780
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:25,700
report because

781
00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:26,460
a lot of

782
00:16:26,460 --> 00:16:26,680
what we're

783
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:27,160
trying to do

784
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:27,440
in the

785
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:28,260
enterprise is

786
00:16:28,260 --> 00:16:28,720
sharing

787
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:29,440
unstructured

788
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:30,460
data that

789
00:16:30,460 --> 00:16:30,820
you're getting

790
00:16:30,820 --> 00:16:31,240
from a couple

791
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:31,840
different places.

792
00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:32,340
Maybe it's

793
00:16:32,340 --> 00:16:32,800
more of like a

794
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:33,540
research paper,

795
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:34,320
but you're

796
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:34,720
trying to

797
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,140
take information

798
00:16:36,140 --> 00:16:36,920
and consolidate

799
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:37,520
it in a way

800
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:38,240
where larger

801
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:38,940
groups can learn

802
00:16:38,940 --> 00:16:39,420
from it without

803
00:16:39,420 --> 00:16:39,980
having to get

804
00:16:39,980 --> 00:16:40,340
all the same

805
00:16:40,340 --> 00:16:40,780
information.

806
00:16:40,980 --> 00:16:41,900
So, you're

807
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:42,480
collecting all

808
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:42,980
this information

809
00:16:42,980 --> 00:16:43,660
and you write

810
00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:44,180
up this book

811
00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:44,480
report.

812
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:45,600
So, can the

813
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:46,180
person that's

814
00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:46,940
read the book

815
00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:48,040
consolidate the

816
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:48,760
information and

817
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:49,180
read the book

818
00:16:49,180 --> 00:16:49,360
report?

819
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:49,820
That would be

820
00:16:49,820 --> 00:16:50,740
like an outcome

821
00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:51,580
you're aiming

822
00:16:51,580 --> 00:16:51,940
towards.

823
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:52,700
Can the whole

824
00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:54,260
class read the

825
00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:54,640
book report

826
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:55,540
this person has

827
00:16:55,540 --> 00:16:57,060
written?

828
00:16:57,420 --> 00:16:57,880
Can the whole

829
00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:58,740
class access

830
00:16:58,740 --> 00:16:59,140
the book

831
00:16:59,140 --> 00:16:59,700
report later

832
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:00,780
on if they

833
00:17:00,780 --> 00:17:01,480
need to learn

834
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:02,120
more about

835
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:02,600
that book?

836
00:17:03,140 --> 00:17:03,740
These are

837
00:17:03,740 --> 00:17:04,020
like the

838
00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:04,340
kind of

839
00:17:04,340 --> 00:17:05,240
outcomes that

840
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:05,600
are going to

841
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,100
drive important

842
00:17:07,100 --> 00:17:08,900
features and

843
00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:09,440
then, you know,

844
00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:09,920
once a book

845
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:10,500
report can be

846
00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:11,460
written, then

847
00:17:11,460 --> 00:17:13,440
like maybe, you

848
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:14,020
know, we don't

849
00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:14,760
need to keep all

850
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:15,300
of those book

851
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:16,620
reports on

852
00:17:16,620 --> 00:17:17,940
this server that

853
00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:18,400
we're paying

854
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:18,880
hundreds of

855
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:19,320
thousands of

856
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:20,040
dollars for a

857
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:20,220
year.

858
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:20,740
We can actually

859
00:17:20,740 --> 00:17:21,240
put it all in

860
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:22,400
the cloud and

861
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,600
more people are

862
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:23,840
going to get

863
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:24,520
more insights about

864
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:25,200
book reports and

865
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:25,520
like all

866
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:25,780
of a sudden

867
00:17:25,780 --> 00:17:26,760
we're recording

868
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:27,220
all of our

869
00:17:27,220 --> 00:17:28,020
video recordings

870
00:17:28,020 --> 00:17:28,700
of book reports

871
00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:29,180
and people are

872
00:17:29,180 --> 00:17:30,220
getting lots of

873
00:17:30,220 --> 00:17:30,780
different ways to

874
00:17:30,780 --> 00:17:31,300
consume the book

875
00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:31,780
reports and

876
00:17:31,780 --> 00:17:32,420
everyone is

877
00:17:32,420 --> 00:17:33,040
getting smarter

878
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:34,520
and faster and

879
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:34,980
getting better

880
00:17:34,980 --> 00:17:35,560
information.

881
00:17:36,060 --> 00:17:36,820
Those are like

882
00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:37,820
the kinds of

883
00:17:37,820 --> 00:17:38,500
outcomes we're

884
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:39,220
trying to get

885
00:17:39,220 --> 00:17:39,960
teams towards.

886
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,300
And so having

887
00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:43,740
to like not

888
00:17:43,740 --> 00:17:44,660
just engage

889
00:17:44,660 --> 00:17:46,400
around the

890
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:47,340
day-to-day of

891
00:17:47,340 --> 00:17:48,460
like what the

892
00:17:48,460 --> 00:17:49,500
features are but

893
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:50,620
really like making

894
00:17:50,620 --> 00:17:51,500
it the outcomes

895
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:52,220
and the business

896
00:17:52,220 --> 00:17:52,960
focused outcomes

897
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:53,400
and getting

898
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:54,560
to that what

899
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:55,380
is the dollar

900
00:17:55,380 --> 00:17:56,180
impact of that

901
00:17:56,180 --> 00:17:57,520
outcome that is

902
00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:58,780
like something only

903
00:17:58,780 --> 00:17:59,700
a leadership team

904
00:17:59,700 --> 00:18:00,560
can provide and

905
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:01,860
maybe a super

906
00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:03,180
awesome expert

907
00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:04,260
product manager

908
00:18:04,260 --> 00:18:06,360
but we can't

909
00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:07,260
expect all of

910
00:18:07,260 --> 00:18:08,520
our teams to

911
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:09,420
just naturally

912
00:18:09,420 --> 00:18:10,160
come to that

913
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:11,640
because if

914
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:12,080
they're so

915
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:12,600
focused on that

916
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:13,740
big picture then

917
00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:14,240
they might not

918
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:15,020
be focused enough

919
00:18:15,020 --> 00:18:16,340
on their actual

920
00:18:16,340 --> 00:18:17,180
end user or

921
00:18:17,180 --> 00:18:18,020
their part of

922
00:18:18,020 --> 00:18:18,500
the stream.

923
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:19,600
Yeah that makes

924
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:20,300
perfect sense and

925
00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:21,280
I think it's

926
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:22,660
something that we

927
00:18:22,660 --> 00:18:23,140
heard I mean

928
00:18:23,140 --> 00:18:23,700
I mean honestly

929
00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:25,060
as I think of

930
00:18:25,060 --> 00:18:25,520
it right like

931
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:26,940
yes in any

932
00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:28,120
situation there

933
00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:28,500
are the people

934
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:29,680
who absolutely

935
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:30,260
have to be

936
00:18:30,260 --> 00:18:31,300
focused on the

937
00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:31,860
ground level

938
00:18:31,860 --> 00:18:32,960
because that is

939
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:33,580
their job right

940
00:18:33,580 --> 00:18:34,200
and to some

941
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:34,580
degree those

942
00:18:34,580 --> 00:18:35,380
little optimizations

943
00:18:35,380 --> 00:18:36,200
those little

944
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:36,820
whatevers those

945
00:18:36,820 --> 00:18:37,300
are that's what

946
00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:37,880
they're there for

947
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:38,460
that's what

948
00:18:38,460 --> 00:18:39,040
they're there to

949
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:39,520
know and then

950
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:40,140
yes like as

951
00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:40,760
you go up the

952
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:41,900
up the line I

953
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:42,500
guess right that

954
00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:43,120
that's where you

955
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:43,780
expect to have

956
00:18:43,780 --> 00:18:44,240
this broader

957
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,680
business or bigger

958
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:47,280
picture view.

959
00:18:47,740 --> 00:18:48,320
What levels of

960
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:49,900
leadership or when

961
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:50,440
we talk about

962
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:51,320
leadership right I

963
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:52,600
I think what

964
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:53,300
levels as that

965
00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:53,960
line of business

966
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,940
is that CIO or

967
00:18:55,940 --> 00:18:57,000
IT leadership like

968
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:57,480
when we say

969
00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:58,120
leadership what

970
00:18:58,120 --> 00:18:58,940
does what does

971
00:18:58,940 --> 00:18:59,280
that mean because

972
00:18:59,280 --> 00:18:59,660
the one thing I

973
00:18:59,660 --> 00:19:00,200
will say like the

974
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:00,740
one thing I also

975
00:19:00,740 --> 00:19:01,400
we also hear a lot

976
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:01,880
with digital

977
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:02,520
transformation

978
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:03,620
particularly is

979
00:19:03,620 --> 00:19:05,540
like the CIO is

980
00:19:05,540 --> 00:19:05,920
now the chief

981
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:06,820
digital officer you

982
00:19:06,820 --> 00:19:07,260
hear all these

983
00:19:07,260 --> 00:19:07,720
things thrown

984
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:08,240
around and it's

985
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:08,960
okay so who's

986
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:09,660
actually in charge

987
00:19:09,660 --> 00:19:11,060
like who bears

988
00:19:11,060 --> 00:19:12,180
responsibility I guess

989
00:19:12,180 --> 00:19:13,340
for what in that

990
00:19:13,340 --> 00:19:14,060
type of organization.

991
00:19:14,460 --> 00:19:16,020
that is not

992
00:19:16,020 --> 00:19:16,440
really an

993
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:17,320
answerable question

994
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,820
in that I

995
00:19:18,820 --> 00:19:19,620
think you know

996
00:19:19,620 --> 00:19:20,300
we work in a

997
00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:21,100
way these days

998
00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:21,980
which is highly

999
00:19:21,980 --> 00:19:23,620
collaborative and

1000
00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:24,820
success is not

1001
00:19:24,820 --> 00:19:25,700
tied to one

1002
00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:27,380
person necessarily.

1003
00:19:28,540 --> 00:19:29,880
In software what

1004
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,280
that means is we

1005
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:32,000
have to keep

1006
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:32,980
creating champions

1007
00:19:32,980 --> 00:19:34,400
and more and

1008
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:34,840
more of our

1009
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:35,800
work is about

1010
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,100
storytelling and

1011
00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:37,920
making sure everyone

1012
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:38,760
understands the

1013
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,220
story than just

1014
00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:42,060
building the right

1015
00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:42,500
software.

1016
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:45,660
So there's a

1017
00:19:45,660 --> 00:19:46,180
book Google

1018
00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:46,960
Design Sprint

1019
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,360
and it outlines

1020
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,160
basically a the

1021
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:52,720
design sprint the

1022
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:53,320
concept behind a

1023
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,400
design sprint is

1024
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,100
get enough user

1025
00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:57,820
insight and

1026
00:19:57,820 --> 00:19:58,360
subject matter

1027
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:00,280
expert insight to

1028
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,660
make a decision

1029
00:20:02,660 --> 00:20:03,540
on a product

1030
00:20:03,540 --> 00:20:04,380
direction and

1031
00:20:04,380 --> 00:20:05,040
start to mock

1032
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:05,560
that up and

1033
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:06,260
test it and do

1034
00:20:06,260 --> 00:20:06,780
all of that

1035
00:20:06,780 --> 00:20:07,260
within a week.

1036
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:09,000
So it is like a

1037
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,320
super hyper focused

1038
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:11,580
what we might have

1039
00:20:11,580 --> 00:20:12,140
traditionally called

1040
00:20:12,140 --> 00:20:13,380
a framing concept.

1041
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,020
It's part of the

1042
00:20:15,020 --> 00:20:15,720
design thinking

1043
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,100
methodology but

1044
00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:17,980
really consolidated

1045
00:20:17,980 --> 00:20:18,980
focused with high

1046
00:20:18,980 --> 00:20:19,560
level executives

1047
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:20,100
everyone together

1048
00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:20,780
for one week.

1049
00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:23,220
One of the

1050
00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:24,320
daily activities

1051
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,020
of the design

1052
00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:27,520
sprint that

1053
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:28,900
gets forgotten

1054
00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:30,280
is the product

1055
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:31,220
manager tells the

1056
00:20:31,220 --> 00:20:31,820
story of the

1057
00:20:31,820 --> 00:20:32,900
product every

1058
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:33,340
single day.

1059
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,720
And then like

1060
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:37,160
I don't remember

1061
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:37,720
if this is actually

1062
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:38,520
from the book or

1063
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:39,340
iterations on the

1064
00:20:39,340 --> 00:20:40,480
book but the

1065
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:41,260
concept being then

1066
00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:43,140
that like everyone

1067
00:20:43,140 --> 00:20:44,240
would take a turn

1068
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:44,980
telling the story

1069
00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:45,420
of the product.

1070
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:45,940
So it's most

1071
00:20:45,940 --> 00:20:46,560
important that like

1072
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:47,180
a product manager

1073
00:20:47,180 --> 00:20:47,840
be able to tell

1074
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:48,380
the story of the

1075
00:20:48,380 --> 00:20:49,380
product but we

1076
00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:50,140
also believe that

1077
00:20:50,140 --> 00:20:50,680
like everyone

1078
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:51,460
needs to understand

1079
00:20:51,460 --> 00:20:52,240
the story of the

1080
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:52,980
product and why

1081
00:20:52,980 --> 00:20:53,800
this is and why

1082
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:54,380
this matters.

1083
00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:56,000
And so I think

1084
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,920
like we are

1085
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,160
under focused on

1086
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,920
telling making our

1087
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:04,900
case telling our

1088
00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:06,200
story explaining

1089
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,960
the ROI and

1090
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,840
hoping that building

1091
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:10,200
building the right

1092
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:10,840
thing will just

1093
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:11,340
make the users

1094
00:21:11,340 --> 00:21:11,940
come but

1095
00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:13,300
ultimately what

1096
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:13,940
we've seen over

1097
00:21:13,940 --> 00:21:14,620
and over again is

1098
00:21:14,620 --> 00:21:15,140
you can build the

1099
00:21:15,140 --> 00:21:16,820
best software but

1100
00:21:16,820 --> 00:21:18,240
if you don't have

1101
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:18,640
the right

1102
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:19,580
relationships you

1103
00:21:19,580 --> 00:21:19,940
can build the

1104
00:21:19,940 --> 00:21:20,980
best software for

1105
00:21:20,980 --> 00:21:22,000
a soldier but

1106
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:22,440
they're not going

1107
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:23,940
to use it if

1108
00:21:23,940 --> 00:21:24,880
their commander

1109
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:25,520
doesn't think they

1110
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:25,780
should.

1111
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:27,500
Same thing in the

1112
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:28,320
financial industry.

1113
00:21:28,460 --> 00:21:29,440
You can build the

1114
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:30,560
best software for

1115
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,120
an analyst but

1116
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:32,580
they're not going

1117
00:21:32,580 --> 00:21:33,400
to use it until

1118
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:34,260
their boss says to

1119
00:21:34,260 --> 00:21:34,620
use it.

1120
00:21:34,940 --> 00:21:35,540
So it's one

1121
00:21:35,540 --> 00:21:36,220
thing to build

1122
00:21:36,220 --> 00:21:36,960
something awesome

1123
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,260
but the world we

1124
00:21:39,260 --> 00:21:40,100
live in is around

1125
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:40,900
building consensus

1126
00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:42,140
and building teams

1127
00:21:42,140 --> 00:21:43,980
and being

1128
00:21:43,980 --> 00:21:44,500
collaborative.

1129
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:45,580
So there's just

1130
00:21:45,580 --> 00:21:47,600
no one person

1131
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:48,160
that can really

1132
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:48,800
make it happen.

1133
00:21:49,020 --> 00:21:50,020
It's so much

1134
00:21:50,020 --> 00:21:51,720
more about

1135
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:52,240
building the

1136
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:52,900
right relationships

1137
00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:53,880
and telling the

1138
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,200
right case.

1139
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:56,460
So when you're

1140
00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:57,580
talking about

1141
00:21:57,580 --> 00:21:58,980
you know building

1142
00:21:58,980 --> 00:21:59,800
a champion

1143
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:00,580
building those

1144
00:22:00,580 --> 00:22:02,380
relationships it

1145
00:22:02,380 --> 00:22:03,120
sounds like that's

1146
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:03,460
a really

1147
00:22:03,460 --> 00:22:04,500
important piece

1148
00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:06,140
of you know

1149
00:22:06,140 --> 00:22:07,020
bridging the gap

1150
00:22:07,020 --> 00:22:07,740
between these

1151
00:22:07,740 --> 00:22:09,320
agile teams and

1152
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:10,620
and the business

1153
00:22:10,620 --> 00:22:11,440
goals or the

1154
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:12,180
business objectives

1155
00:22:12,180 --> 00:22:13,700
but how do you

1156
00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:14,380
like how do you

1157
00:22:14,380 --> 00:22:15,200
identify who that

1158
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:16,280
champion is and

1159
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,160
how do you go

1160
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:19,040
about actually

1161
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:20,960
you know putting

1162
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:21,660
into place certain

1163
00:22:21,660 --> 00:22:22,480
practices that

1164
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:23,180
promote that

1165
00:22:23,180 --> 00:22:23,620
level of

1166
00:22:23,620 --> 00:22:24,720
communication because

1167
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:25,780
that's that

1168
00:22:25,780 --> 00:22:26,580
requires quite an

1169
00:22:26,580 --> 00:22:28,760
investment on the

1170
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:29,640
part of leadership

1171
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:30,680
and whoever that

1172
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:31,360
champion is.

1173
00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:32,520
Yeah.

1174
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:33,880
I think we

1175
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:34,720
can't rely on

1176
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:35,280
one champion

1177
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,880
and that we

1178
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:37,800
constantly have to

1179
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:38,560
build more and

1180
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:39,240
more champions

1181
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,400
and again if

1182
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:41,520
if they don't

1183
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:42,780
have the time

1184
00:22:42,780 --> 00:22:43,280
to champion

1185
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:43,960
this product

1186
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:45,060
then that's a

1187
00:22:45,060 --> 00:22:46,340
signal that maybe

1188
00:22:46,340 --> 00:22:46,800
it's not as

1189
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,160
important as we

1190
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:48,720
thought it was

1191
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:49,940
and we should

1192
00:22:49,940 --> 00:22:50,940
take that back

1193
00:22:50,940 --> 00:22:52,240
and check in

1194
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:52,980
like are we

1195
00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:53,440
making these

1196
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:54,440
ROI calculations

1197
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:54,880
right.

1198
00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:56,420
Just because

1199
00:22:56,420 --> 00:22:56,880
something's not

1200
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:57,640
the most important

1201
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:58,220
doesn't mean it

1202
00:22:58,220 --> 00:22:58,560
shouldn't get

1203
00:22:58,560 --> 00:22:59,120
worked on

1204
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:00,060
right.

1205
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:01,940
we still have

1206
00:23:01,940 --> 00:23:02,660
to motivate a

1207
00:23:02,660 --> 00:23:03,380
team even

1208
00:23:03,380 --> 00:23:03,680
when they're

1209
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:04,040
working on

1210
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:04,460
something that's

1211
00:23:04,460 --> 00:23:04,860
not the most

1212
00:23:04,860 --> 00:23:05,900
important but

1213
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:06,380
we have to

1214
00:23:06,380 --> 00:23:07,620
constantly be

1215
00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:08,120
building those

1216
00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:09,000
relationships for

1217
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:09,640
our team be

1218
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:10,060
building those

1219
00:23:10,060 --> 00:23:11,480
relationships across

1220
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:12,340
the business unit

1221
00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:13,360
across IT

1222
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:15,900
across users

1223
00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:17,360
across champions

1224
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:19,140
across our

1225
00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:19,960
users bosses

1226
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:20,920
bosses boss

1227
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,820
towards the

1228
00:23:22,820 --> 00:23:23,520
board that

1229
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:24,060
reviews our

1230
00:23:24,060 --> 00:23:24,580
success.

1231
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:26,120
that is like

1232
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:26,920
a never-ending

1233
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,040
challenge for a

1234
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:28,480
great software

1235
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:28,760
team.

1236
00:23:29,660 --> 00:23:30,300
I'm curious

1237
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:31,300
because that

1238
00:23:31,300 --> 00:23:32,680
idea of right

1239
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:33,800
if someone says

1240
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:34,120
they don't have

1241
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:34,780
the time to do

1242
00:23:34,780 --> 00:23:35,880
this it is a

1243
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:36,160
pretty good

1244
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:36,680
indicator that

1245
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:37,200
maybe it's not

1246
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:37,780
that important.

1247
00:23:38,380 --> 00:23:38,700
On the other

1248
00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:40,360
hand you said

1249
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:41,560
but like even

1250
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:42,040
not important

1251
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:42,440
things need to

1252
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:43,000
be worked on

1253
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:43,760
probably.

1254
00:23:44,020 --> 00:23:44,440
Do you find

1255
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:45,760
is it typically

1256
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,800
like I mean is

1257
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:47,300
there a person

1258
00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:47,980
within a lot of

1259
00:23:47,980 --> 00:23:48,800
orgs like that

1260
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:49,380
jack of all

1261
00:23:49,380 --> 00:23:50,160
trades or that

1262
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:50,740
do you just

1263
00:23:50,740 --> 00:23:51,040
have to find

1264
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:51,620
that so not

1265
00:23:51,620 --> 00:23:52,300
as a champion

1266
00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:53,320
but like who's

1267
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:53,840
this reliable

1268
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:54,460
person who's

1269
00:23:54,460 --> 00:23:55,040
just going to

1270
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,300
take this

1271
00:23:57,300 --> 00:23:57,780
thing by the

1272
00:23:57,780 --> 00:23:58,220
horns and get

1273
00:23:58,220 --> 00:23:59,480
it done and

1274
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:00,240
then probably

1275
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:00,660
move on to

1276
00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:01,240
the next thing

1277
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:02,480
but like is

1278
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:03,040
there I don't

1279
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:03,380
know if that's

1280
00:24:03,380 --> 00:24:03,740
called that

1281
00:24:03,740 --> 00:24:04,100
person a

1282
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:04,820
champion is

1283
00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:05,400
what you call

1284
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,220
them a work

1285
00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:06,600
horse or

1286
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:06,960
something.

1287
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:09,080
I'm just

1288
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:09,620
curious when you

1289
00:24:09,620 --> 00:24:10,180
say like right

1290
00:24:10,180 --> 00:24:10,660
when you run

1291
00:24:10,660 --> 00:24:11,260
into that issue

1292
00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:12,680
presumably you

1293
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:13,140
have to motivate

1294
00:24:13,140 --> 00:24:14,900
someone to

1295
00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:15,740
handle that.

1296
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,320
Yeah but I

1297
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,880
think like it's

1298
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:21,600
I think it just

1299
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:22,140
can't be one

1300
00:24:22,140 --> 00:24:22,820
person right we

1301
00:24:22,820 --> 00:24:23,400
have to motivate

1302
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:23,940
these larger

1303
00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:24,720
teams we have

1304
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:25,060
to motivate

1305
00:24:25,060 --> 00:24:25,560
these larger

1306
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:26,680
groups and

1307
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:27,220
so I think

1308
00:24:27,220 --> 00:24:28,180
thinking about

1309
00:24:28,180 --> 00:24:28,960
software as

1310
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:29,640
just the act

1311
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:30,140
of building

1312
00:24:30,140 --> 00:24:32,000
software that

1313
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:32,840
is kind of

1314
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,160
like what is

1315
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,000
the most risky

1316
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,220
for teams and

1317
00:24:37,220 --> 00:24:38,000
it's easy for us

1318
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:38,620
in a consulting

1319
00:24:38,620 --> 00:24:39,380
lens to think

1320
00:24:39,380 --> 00:24:39,980
about that right

1321
00:24:39,980 --> 00:24:40,420
because we're

1322
00:24:40,420 --> 00:24:41,200
consulting all the

1323
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:42,080
time and so we

1324
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,400
understand that we

1325
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,620
need to build

1326
00:24:44,620 --> 00:24:46,000
alliances within

1327
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,640
the organizations

1328
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:48,280
we're working

1329
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:48,940
with and help

1330
00:24:48,940 --> 00:24:49,980
them champion

1331
00:24:49,980 --> 00:24:50,660
the work they're

1332
00:24:50,660 --> 00:24:51,300
doing that makes

1333
00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:51,760
the case for

1334
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,660
consulting but you

1335
00:24:53,660 --> 00:24:54,040
know when I

1336
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:54,600
talk to Adam

1337
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:55,160
at Spotify

1338
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,280
or you know

1339
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:58,040
other friends

1340
00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:58,540
at other

1341
00:24:58,540 --> 00:24:59,780
software organizations

1342
00:24:59,780 --> 00:25:01,900
they're doing

1343
00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:02,500
that all the

1344
00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:03,120
time internally

1345
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:04,740
too and so

1346
00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:06,040
it's just not

1347
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:06,920
something you can

1348
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:07,660
kind of like leave

1349
00:25:07,660 --> 00:25:08,220
and forget it's

1350
00:25:08,220 --> 00:25:08,660
like just a

1351
00:25:08,660 --> 00:25:10,420
constant a

1352
00:25:10,420 --> 00:25:11,600
constant part of

1353
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:12,340
building great

1354
00:25:12,340 --> 00:25:14,100
software just

1355
00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:14,600
like the great

1356
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:15,720
CEO is like

1357
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:16,580
fundraising from

1358
00:25:16,580 --> 00:25:17,860
the right people

1359
00:25:17,860 --> 00:25:18,520
and from the

1360
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,160
right investors

1361
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:19,820
not just any

1362
00:25:19,820 --> 00:25:20,620
investor and

1363
00:25:20,620 --> 00:25:21,540
they are building

1364
00:25:21,540 --> 00:25:22,100
the right

1365
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:23,440
partnerships and

1366
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:24,360
alliances right

1367
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:27,000
like all of us

1368
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:27,940
with the pieces of

1369
00:25:27,940 --> 00:25:28,480
software that we

1370
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,000
build are not

1371
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:30,740
just building but

1372
00:25:30,740 --> 00:25:31,600
ultimately like

1373
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,700
making a case for

1374
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:34,940
a change and

1375
00:25:34,940 --> 00:25:35,940
making a case for

1376
00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:36,580
a change is

1377
00:25:36,580 --> 00:25:38,100
really hard and

1378
00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:38,720
it is an uphill

1379
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,260
battle always and

1380
00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:41,500
even even when you

1381
00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:42,300
get 100% of

1382
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:43,160
traffic even when

1383
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:43,880
you get 100% of

1384
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:44,460
people on board

1385
00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:46,080
you're back at the

1386
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:46,660
bottom of the hill

1387
00:25:46,660 --> 00:25:47,160
with your next

1388
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,400
challenge have you

1389
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:48,820
seen have you

1390
00:25:48,820 --> 00:25:49,520
seen this improve

1391
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:50,540
over the years I

1392
00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:51,600
mean as as we

1393
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:52,560
talk more about

1394
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:53,660
as software becomes

1395
00:25:53,660 --> 00:25:54,480
more important I

1396
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:55,660
mean the again like

1397
00:25:55,660 --> 00:25:56,320
Danielle mentioned

1398
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:57,120
earlier the COVID

1399
00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:59,380
situation was just

1400
00:25:59,380 --> 00:26:01,020
like a very stark

1401
00:26:01,020 --> 00:26:01,900
and recent wake-up

1402
00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:02,780
call but just over

1403
00:26:02,780 --> 00:26:03,480
the last however

1404
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:04,260
many years that

1405
00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:05,460
let's say decade

1406
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:06,600
give or take that

1407
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:07,380
software has really

1408
00:26:07,380 --> 00:26:08,720
gone come to the

1409
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:09,720
forefront have you

1410
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,020
seen these skills

1411
00:26:11,020 --> 00:26:12,600
improve and you

1412
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:13,060
as you go into

1413
00:26:13,060 --> 00:26:13,780
clients or is it

1414
00:26:13,780 --> 00:26:15,120
every time a

1415
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:17,100
okay start from

1416
00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:17,880
start from scratch

1417
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:18,920
and you know

1418
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:20,020
build up these

1419
00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:20,400
from the ground

1420
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:21,500
I think it

1421
00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:21,980
depends on the

1422
00:26:21,980 --> 00:26:23,060
organization right

1423
00:26:23,060 --> 00:26:23,560
because you're

1424
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:24,480
like different

1425
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:25,320
organizations support

1426
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,020
different levels of

1427
00:26:26,020 --> 00:26:26,840
collaboration and

1428
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:27,480
decision making

1429
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,240
I definitely see

1430
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:29,980
culture and

1431
00:26:29,980 --> 00:26:32,140
organizations being

1432
00:26:32,140 --> 00:26:32,900
focused on

1433
00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:33,860
consensus and

1434
00:26:33,860 --> 00:26:35,100
employee happiness

1435
00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:36,020
and that being

1436
00:26:36,020 --> 00:26:36,580
important to

1437
00:26:36,580 --> 00:26:37,280
organizations and

1438
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:37,800
that's always a

1439
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:38,380
pleasure to work

1440
00:26:38,380 --> 00:26:40,180
with and so

1441
00:26:40,180 --> 00:26:40,780
then it's really

1442
00:26:40,780 --> 00:26:41,600
around helping

1443
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,360
the individuals

1444
00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:44,920
or the team

1445
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,600
figure out how

1446
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:47,360
to work

1447
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:48,960
get to the

1448
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:49,520
right people

1449
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:50,040
and craft

1450
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:50,540
the story

1451
00:26:50,540 --> 00:26:51,300
I think it

1452
00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:51,700
is I

1453
00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:52,180
definitely think

1454
00:26:52,180 --> 00:26:52,800
it is trending

1455
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:53,780
positively upwards

1456
00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:54,960
I think software

1457
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,540
is where the ROI

1458
00:26:56,540 --> 00:26:57,940
is so more eyes

1459
00:26:57,940 --> 00:26:58,700
are on it and

1460
00:26:58,700 --> 00:26:59,760
it's more and more

1461
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:00,880
important and

1462
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,160
it's more and more

1463
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,660
exciting so I

1464
00:27:04,660 --> 00:27:05,460
definitely see it

1465
00:27:05,460 --> 00:27:05,960
trending upward

1466
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,240
I've kind of a

1467
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,180
self-serving maybe

1468
00:27:08,180 --> 00:27:09,080
hopefully not too

1469
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:09,540
self-serving

1470
00:27:09,540 --> 00:27:10,460
question but I'm

1471
00:27:10,460 --> 00:27:11,060
kind of curious

1472
00:27:11,060 --> 00:27:11,740
about you know

1473
00:27:11,740 --> 00:27:12,340
when you come

1474
00:27:12,340 --> 00:27:14,380
into an

1475
00:27:14,380 --> 00:27:16,900
organization and

1476
00:27:16,900 --> 00:27:17,900
you know there's

1477
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:18,560
this need to

1478
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:19,280
build consensus

1479
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:19,940
and build

1480
00:27:19,940 --> 00:27:20,940
relationships do

1481
00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:23,040
you find that as

1482
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:23,480
an outside

1483
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,000
consultant like

1484
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,120
it's it's easier

1485
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:26,880
for you to do

1486
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:27,360
that and to

1487
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:28,160
kind of help

1488
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:29,360
your the team

1489
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:29,740
you're working

1490
00:27:29,740 --> 00:27:30,460
with make those

1491
00:27:30,460 --> 00:27:31,180
connections that

1492
00:27:31,180 --> 00:27:31,900
they might not

1493
00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:32,580
otherwise be able

1494
00:27:32,580 --> 00:27:33,360
to make or not

1495
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:34,340
necessarily because

1496
00:27:34,340 --> 00:27:34,860
you are an

1497
00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:36,580
outsider maybe it

1498
00:27:36,580 --> 00:27:37,980
depends yeah I

1499
00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:38,520
think it goes

1500
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:39,880
both ways I

1501
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:40,860
definitely find

1502
00:27:40,860 --> 00:27:41,880
that there are

1503
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:42,580
lots of advantages

1504
00:27:42,580 --> 00:27:43,560
to just being a

1505
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:44,960
set of fresh

1506
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,140
eyes but

1507
00:27:46,140 --> 00:27:46,660
oftentimes when

1508
00:27:46,660 --> 00:27:46,980
clients are

1509
00:27:46,980 --> 00:27:47,500
bringing us in

1510
00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:47,980
it's because they

1511
00:27:47,980 --> 00:27:49,660
know they need

1512
00:27:49,660 --> 00:27:50,380
help with something

1513
00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:50,900
even if they're

1514
00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:51,860
not sure what it

1515
00:27:51,860 --> 00:27:54,200
is so they're

1516
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:55,080
open to it they

1517
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,100
want they want

1518
00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:56,680
the help they

1519
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:57,960
want the support

1520
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,860
some members of

1521
00:27:59,860 --> 00:28:00,520
the team might be

1522
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:01,600
more resistant but

1523
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,800
I think we we

1524
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:05,600
are so highly

1525
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:06,340
collaborative and

1526
00:28:06,340 --> 00:28:06,820
so highly

1527
00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:07,840
transparent in the

1528
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:08,760
software that we

1529
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:09,440
build together and

1530
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:09,840
that's one of

1531
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,020
the really special

1532
00:28:11,020 --> 00:28:11,500
things about

1533
00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:12,200
working with

1534
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,320
pivotal labs you

1535
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,000
get such a high

1536
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,760
level as a leader

1537
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:17,740
or a member of

1538
00:28:17,740 --> 00:28:18,400
the team of

1539
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:19,240
transparency on

1540
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,180
what everyone's

1541
00:28:20,180 --> 00:28:20,780
doing all day

1542
00:28:20,780 --> 00:28:21,380
because you could

1543
00:28:21,380 --> 00:28:22,140
just hop into the

1544
00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:22,680
zoom and listen

1545
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,180
to them pair on

1546
00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:26,220
like what the

1547
00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:27,120
software looks like

1548
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:27,900
today because you

1549
00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:28,600
can just open up

1550
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:29,000
an acceptance

1551
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:29,660
environment you

1552
00:28:29,660 --> 00:28:30,140
don't need to

1553
00:28:30,140 --> 00:28:30,640
wait till the

1554
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:31,460
week and look at

1555
00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:32,180
like a scheduled

1556
00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:33,520
release there's

1557
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:34,800
transparency into

1558
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,440
when something is

1559
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:37,280
going to happen

1560
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:37,860
because you could

1561
00:28:37,860 --> 00:28:38,500
just open up the

1562
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:39,800
backlog and look

1563
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:40,620
at the where it

1564
00:28:40,620 --> 00:28:41,500
is in the level

1565
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:42,320
of priority and

1566
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:43,240
recommend it be

1567
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:43,980
higher or lower

1568
00:28:43,980 --> 00:28:46,020
so that level of

1569
00:28:46,020 --> 00:28:47,720
transparency also

1570
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:48,800
creates like a

1571
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,580
level of like

1572
00:28:50,580 --> 00:28:51,600
psychological safety

1573
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,300
and support and

1574
00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:56,820
positive intent that

1575
00:28:56,820 --> 00:28:57,720
I think a lot of

1576
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,120
people really feel

1577
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,620
excited about and

1578
00:29:00,620 --> 00:29:02,740
so the quality of

1579
00:29:02,740 --> 00:29:03,360
our software the

1580
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:03,920
quality of our

1581
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:04,540
test is not just

1582
00:29:04,540 --> 00:29:05,380
our superpower but

1583
00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:07,080
our like comfort in

1584
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,480
transparency I think

1585
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:09,440
is like what makes

1586
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:10,640
it so appealing to

1587
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:10,980
work with a

1588
00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:11,820
people labs teams

1589
00:29:11,820 --> 00:29:15,640
so hear me out

1590
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:16,600
you might say

1591
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:17,100
what a stupid

1592
00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:17,780
question Derek

1593
00:29:17,780 --> 00:29:18,760
basically it's how

1594
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:19,240
do you weigh the

1595
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:20,140
importance of

1596
00:29:20,140 --> 00:29:22,540
communication and

1597
00:29:22,540 --> 00:29:23,780
and leadership and

1598
00:29:23,780 --> 00:29:24,800
executive buy-in and

1599
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:25,360
all these things you're

1600
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:26,140
talking about and

1601
00:29:26,140 --> 00:29:27,100
psychological safety

1602
00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:27,940
and everything versus

1603
00:29:27,940 --> 00:29:29,000
the other thing you

1604
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,160
hear which is we

1605
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:30,620
just need to be able

1606
00:29:30,620 --> 00:29:31,140
to hire better

1607
00:29:31,140 --> 00:29:31,960
developers or we

1608
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:32,440
just need better

1609
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:33,360
tools for developers

1610
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:33,720
and everything

1611
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:34,240
will be better

1612
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:35,100
because that's the

1613
00:29:35,100 --> 00:29:35,980
other thing that

1614
00:29:35,980 --> 00:29:37,420
seems to go hand

1615
00:29:37,420 --> 00:29:38,880
in hand with getting

1616
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:39,580
better at that

1617
00:29:39,580 --> 00:29:40,560
software don't you

1618
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,340
need both probably

1619
00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:42,880
I'm asking are you

1620
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,400
with them no I

1621
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:45,820
think like as in

1622
00:29:45,820 --> 00:29:46,460
yes I think you

1623
00:29:46,460 --> 00:29:48,580
need both you need

1624
00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:49,560
the quality of the

1625
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:50,720
team hiring the

1626
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:51,680
right people hiring

1627
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:52,420
the right balance of

1628
00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:53,140
people hiring the

1629
00:29:53,140 --> 00:29:53,460
people that are

1630
00:29:53,460 --> 00:29:53,940
going to collaborate

1631
00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:54,680
and coordinate

1632
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,100
arming them with

1633
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:56,940
the right tools so

1634
00:29:56,940 --> 00:29:57,480
they're not spinning

1635
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:58,240
their wheels working

1636
00:29:58,240 --> 00:29:58,900
on things that are

1637
00:29:58,900 --> 00:29:59,860
not their highest

1638
00:29:59,860 --> 00:30:02,060
value and creating

1639
00:30:02,060 --> 00:30:03,180
space for teams to

1640
00:30:03,180 --> 00:30:04,740
experiment so that

1641
00:30:04,740 --> 00:30:05,680
they really can

1642
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:06,400
think outside the

1643
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:06,980
box and you can

1644
00:30:06,980 --> 00:30:07,880
harvest that thinking

1645
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,940
for greater good for

1646
00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:10,680
your customers all

1647
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,760
right so very

1648
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:13,580
insightful Hattie all

1649
00:30:13,580 --> 00:30:14,580
of this like especially

1650
00:30:14,580 --> 00:30:15,160
as someone who

1651
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,600
personally who who

1652
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:18,460
who see I've you

1653
00:30:18,460 --> 00:30:18,840
know I've been with

1654
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:19,440
VMware what for

1655
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:20,560
Pivotal I guess slash

1656
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:21,420
VMware for like two

1657
00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:22,900
years and I some of

1658
00:30:22,900 --> 00:30:23,580
the lab stuff I'm

1659
00:30:23,580 --> 00:30:24,340
just finally they're

1660
00:30:24,340 --> 00:30:25,020
finally starting to

1661
00:30:25,020 --> 00:30:25,940
distill down to me

1662
00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:27,200
so I always love

1663
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:27,560
having these

1664
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,820
discussions um but

1665
00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:30,720
like so if you're if

1666
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:31,360
you had to say for

1667
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:32,140
like a new client

1668
00:30:32,140 --> 00:30:32,980
right I mean

1669
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:33,820
obviously before

1670
00:30:33,820 --> 00:30:34,700
and definitely

1671
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:35,160
engage with

1672
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:35,880
Pivotal Labs but

1673
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,060
but you know if

1674
00:30:37,060 --> 00:30:37,640
you had a couple

1675
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:38,400
or one or two

1676
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,400
pieces of this is

1677
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:39,880
the thing you need

1678
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:40,600
to do first just

1679
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:41,520
like number one

1680
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:42,000
you're going down

1681
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:42,420
this journey

1682
00:30:42,420 --> 00:30:43,220
something's broken

1683
00:30:43,220 --> 00:30:44,320
like like what

1684
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:45,120
are those first

1685
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:46,800
steps that everyone

1686
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:47,680
can take to kind

1687
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:48,860
of to just get

1688
00:30:48,860 --> 00:30:49,420
headed in the right

1689
00:30:49,420 --> 00:30:50,060
direction at least

1690
00:30:50,060 --> 00:30:51,940
to the leaders

1691
00:30:51,940 --> 00:30:55,540
the first piece of

1692
00:30:55,540 --> 00:30:56,860
advice that I like

1693
00:30:56,860 --> 00:30:58,040
to recommend is

1694
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,600
protect your teams

1695
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:01,300
a little less

1696
00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:05,460
I think so many

1697
00:31:05,460 --> 00:31:06,240
leaders in software

1698
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:06,820
get there because

1699
00:31:06,820 --> 00:31:07,540
they've protected

1700
00:31:07,540 --> 00:31:08,460
teams they've

1701
00:31:08,460 --> 00:31:09,580
executed they've

1702
00:31:09,580 --> 00:31:11,120
they've helped a

1703
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,560
team perform and

1704
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:14,400
meet a difficult

1705
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:15,140
moment meet a

1706
00:31:15,140 --> 00:31:15,740
difficult deadline

1707
00:31:15,740 --> 00:31:17,640
but I think we are

1708
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:18,660
struggling between

1709
00:31:18,660 --> 00:31:19,500
giving teams

1710
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:20,600
autonomy and giving

1711
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:21,840
them transparency

1712
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,000
and clarity into the

1713
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:23,760
real business value

1714
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:24,720
they're they're

1715
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,400
providing so in an

1716
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:27,160
attempt to give

1717
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:27,940
them autonomy to

1718
00:31:27,940 --> 00:31:28,960
let them be agile

1719
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,300
we are not giving

1720
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:32,340
them enough information

1721
00:31:32,340 --> 00:31:33,440
about why they're

1722
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:34,020
building what they're

1723
00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:35,460
building so protect

1724
00:31:35,460 --> 00:31:36,040
the teams a little

1725
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,300
bit less but I say

1726
00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:38,840
to I recommend to

1727
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:39,480
do that especially

1728
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:40,120
in this time of

1729
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,580
COVID where everyone

1730
00:31:41,580 --> 00:31:43,320
is working in a

1731
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,040
dispersed way it's

1732
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,380
a combination of

1733
00:31:46,380 --> 00:31:48,180
giving the teams

1734
00:31:48,180 --> 00:31:49,380
clear outcomes once

1735
00:31:49,380 --> 00:31:50,960
and then again and

1736
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:51,920
again but then

1737
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,940
having those one-on-one

1738
00:31:53,940 --> 00:31:54,680
connections with

1739
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:55,440
members of the team

1740
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:56,100
and listening

1741
00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:57,560
listening for those

1742
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,300
moments of creativity

1743
00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:01,260
that can change

1744
00:32:01,260 --> 00:32:02,900
perspective giving

1745
00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:04,100
the team space to

1746
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:05,220
change direction when

1747
00:32:05,220 --> 00:32:06,120
they learn something

1748
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:07,400
listening to the

1749
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:07,900
learnings and

1750
00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:09,680
encouraging that so

1751
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,760
there is actually

1752
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:13,760
like a higher touch

1753
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,220
involvement in this

1754
00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:15,740
moment where you

1755
00:32:15,740 --> 00:32:16,660
can't overhear

1756
00:32:16,660 --> 00:32:17,720
something over coffee

1757
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:18,720
or check in with a

1758
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,640
person or read their

1759
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:20,880
body language and we

1760
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:21,520
don't really know

1761
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:22,260
what's happening to

1762
00:32:22,260 --> 00:32:23,300
someone behind the

1763
00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:24,400
screen beyond the

1764
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,660
screen where we

1765
00:32:26,660 --> 00:32:27,440
just need to listen

1766
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:28,120
a little bit more

1767
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,880
closely and also be

1768
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:31,700
more transparent

1769
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:33,800
thank you so much

1770
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:34,280
Hetty it's been

1771
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,380
really great hearing

1772
00:32:35,380 --> 00:32:36,500
all of your thoughts

1773
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:37,200
and hearing all about

1774
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,040
your experience working

1775
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,180
with these teams and

1776
00:32:39,180 --> 00:32:40,380
thanks for joining us

1777
00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:41,680
thank you

1778
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,680
Thank you.