1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,900 Well, once again, I've got something that started as one of the week daily videos that I do 2 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:10,680 called Tanzu Talk. You can see all of them at TanzuTalk.com. Find the archives on YouTube, 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:16,160 whatever. Or you can watch them live if you go to twitch.com slash VMware Tanzu. 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:22,300 Anyhow, this is a nice interview that Rick and I did with Sophie about. I think it's fun. It's 5 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:27,860 kind of this discussion of like, how do you manage people when you're doing remote working, 6 00:00:27,860 --> 00:00:34,060 and especially make sure that trickle down things work as I characterize it. But like I said, 7 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:40,040 if you're interested in seeing about five or so of these little videos a week, I do them week daily. 8 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,860 Just go check it out at TanzuTalk.com. And with that, enjoy the episode. 9 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:53,780 Hi, welcome to Tanzu Talks. I'm Rick Clark here with Coté, who has kindly let me introduce us. 10 00:00:54,780 --> 00:01:01,040 And we have a special guest with us, Sophie, who is from Mercedesbins.io, who I will let introduce 11 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:07,820 herself in a second. We're going to talk about some of the ways that the pandemic has affected 12 00:01:07,820 --> 00:01:13,060 the way we operate as companies and the way we communicate with each other. And I've mostly 13 00:01:13,060 --> 00:01:17,960 focused so far, my thinking on how it affects how we communicate with our customers. So this is a 14 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:24,140 kind of a new way of looking at it for me. And I think actually Sophie is going to probably do most 15 00:01:24,220 --> 00:01:28,380 of the talking and have most of the ideas. Maybe Coté will have some. I certainly will have none. 16 00:01:29,020 --> 00:01:32,780 But Sophie, will you tell us a little bit about yourself? 17 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:39,100 Absolutely. Yes. So I'm Sophie. I'm the CEO and Managing Director of Mercedesbins.io. 18 00:01:40,460 --> 00:01:46,640 And so just talking about me. So I'm 37 years old and coming from Austria, but living in Stuttgart, 19 00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:52,560 living all over the world, including the US and Singapore, also have been dealing a lot with China 20 00:01:52,560 --> 00:02:01,660 in my career. But essentially, what we are doing at MBIO, I would abbreviate that, is we are building 21 00:02:01,660 --> 00:02:10,660 the website of Mercedes. And we have roughly 30 to 40 teams that are building features, building 22 00:02:10,660 --> 00:02:17,240 functionality that is visible on our website globally. So wherever you are in the world and you are keying 23 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:25,960 in Mercedes-Benz.de, for example, then you will see the result of our work. Exactly. And so till date, 24 00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:33,180 so we've been in home office since March, and I'm not really seeing an end of it coming in the near 25 00:02:33,180 --> 00:02:40,380 future. But we have roughly 400 people across three locations. That's Stuttgart, Berlin, 26 00:02:40,380 --> 00:02:46,120 and Lisbon. And we have round about, I would say, 60 to 70% of our workforce are engineers 27 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:54,300 from front-end devs, back-end devs, mobile devs, solution architects, data engineers, stuff like 28 00:02:54,300 --> 00:03:01,860 this. So we have quite a large number of engineers, and we are building products, right? So we have been 29 00:03:01,860 --> 00:03:08,380 used to work in teams in itself, and they've been split across the locations wherever we had the right 30 00:03:08,380 --> 00:03:14,120 skill. But then, to be honest, like how we were steering the company and how we were driving change 31 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:21,760 change or driving strategy, that was always very, I'd say, on-site. Like, we've been doing town halls. 32 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:27,860 We don't call it town halls. It's a little bit too old school. But we run a lot of, you know, sessions 33 00:03:27,860 --> 00:03:33,420 where we are actually delivering our message on what we're expecting from the teams, how they operate, 34 00:03:33,500 --> 00:03:39,340 how they work with each other. But now, since we don't have that anymore, yet, I'd say there are lots of 35 00:03:39,340 --> 00:03:45,080 challenges and how we, as a company, actually operate with each other. And how also new joiners, 36 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,260 who just joined the company, are feeling the spirit of MBIO. 37 00:03:49,380 --> 00:03:57,520 So there have been a lot of changes, but were you already embracing work from home with a portion 38 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:03,140 of your workforce? So that part's not completely new, the work from home, right? 39 00:04:03,340 --> 00:04:10,500 No, exactly. So we've been quite casual with work from home. But nevertheless, so we always make it up to 40 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:15,780 the team. The team needs to decide how they want to operate with each other. So for example, if they run 41 00:04:15,780 --> 00:04:22,640 sprint changes, sprint reviews, if they, you know, they commonly decide to meet in person, then everyone 42 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:28,540 has to be there, right? But ultimately, if you, you know, want to do a day of coding, you want to work from home, 43 00:04:28,540 --> 00:04:34,080 no one would say no. It's a matter of communication, but we've been very casual with that. So we are, 44 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,620 basically, when we moved into remote work, for us, technically, and just from a, let's say, 45 00:04:39,980 --> 00:04:46,400 thinking perspective, thought process, it was, it was quite normal. I was like, okay, we're gonna 46 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:54,720 reach that time. But you know, now, it's like, eight months. It's already like, oh, I have to go to the 47 00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:01,120 office. Oh, need to plan half a half an hour to go there, then be there, then go back. How do I fit 48 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:01,980 this into my whole day? 49 00:05:02,980 --> 00:05:07,600 And so, so what, I mean, one of the things you mentioned, and that we've, we've talked about 50 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:13,260 before is, I mean, the way you put it is each team can decide what they want to do, right, if they want 51 00:05:13,260 --> 00:05:18,460 to be in, in person or not. And I mean, can you, can you speak a little bit about the general, 52 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,720 I don't, I don't know what you would call it, approach you have towards managing that, that, 53 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:29,160 that, that falls out from? Like, what's the way the organization is running such that the teams 54 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,540 kind of control most of, of, of what they do and the way they operate? 55 00:05:33,820 --> 00:05:41,420 Well, essentially, we're running OKRs. So that's our steering methodology, if you can call it 56 00:05:41,420 --> 00:05:46,140 like this. So we are setting top level OKRs, and we're breaking them down based on different 57 00:05:46,140 --> 00:05:51,160 areas of the website. So we have an area that's called more or less like explore the vehicle, 58 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:57,240 that one is buying the vehicle, and stuff like this. And then we try to basically talk together 59 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:02,080 with the teams, nail down what they're supposed to do in order to achieve certain, let's say, 60 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:08,320 conversion rates or target KPIs, of course. So that has been a process that we've always 61 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:14,080 been doing, but also, especially the target setting, and it's aligning. It was always a 62 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:22,020 very intense face to face activity. You know, I think talking about strategy, and trying to 63 00:06:22,020 --> 00:06:27,240 make people understand about what this is about, it's, it has a lot to do also with, you know, 64 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:32,120 how you interact and you explain something on a, on a whiteboard, you know, there are more people, 65 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:40,760 you create kind of a buzz, right? And you do not, you cannot even, you see if people, you know, 66 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:46,860 haven't understood it, or they ask counter question. But in this remote setup, and sometimes even you see 67 00:06:46,860 --> 00:06:55,740 people like turning off the video, did you just, you know, did you just get yourself a coffee? Or did 68 00:06:55,740 --> 00:07:01,500 you, you know, you think the discussion is not the appropriate one? Or, you know, you have five other 69 00:07:01,500 --> 00:07:08,380 things to do. And it's a, it's for me, it's really tough to get a feeling how things have been transported 70 00:07:08,380 --> 00:07:15,420 to the teams. So, so there's, there's two things I want to, I want to ask about there. First of all, 71 00:07:16,340 --> 00:07:20,300 I mean, maybe this is obvious, like, OKR thing, but I hadn't, I hadn't thought about 72 00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:26,880 the way you kind of clearly put it that like, so if you, if you have self-directed teams, right, 73 00:07:26,940 --> 00:07:34,480 autonomous teams figuring out what they'll be doing, like, you can arrange the way you do OKRs such 74 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:43,040 that it's that kind of bridge between strategy and like, hey, you can go figure it out. Right? Like, 75 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:50,640 like, we, we would like to achieve these results. And you can figure out how to do it however you 76 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,040 want. I mean, that's kind of like the basic function of an OKR. But like, tell me if I was 77 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,740 understanding wrong. But you said something that was interesting is almost, you can almost look at 78 00:07:59,740 --> 00:08:07,220 your OKRs. And that suggests almost kind of like an architecture or a portfolio of applications and 79 00:08:07,220 --> 00:08:11,260 team, which is, I don't, I mean, is that, am I understanding that right? Because that's a really 80 00:08:11,260 --> 00:08:15,760 interesting way of figuring out what teams you have and what areas of responsibilities those. 81 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:23,820 Yeah. Yeah. But just setting OKRs, writing them down, does not replace good communication 82 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:29,820 together with the teams. You need to deliver a message. So you don't just do OKRs. You don't 83 00:08:29,820 --> 00:08:35,580 just set targets. Because, you know, because you were sitting down with your, your peers and, 84 00:08:35,580 --> 00:08:40,500 you know, we as the company leadership team, we think we should do this, right? It's about a lot 85 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:45,300 about the why. And then you don't even know, like, you can see if people are tuning out or not, 86 00:08:45,300 --> 00:08:49,540 at least when you are in a room, to be quite honest. If you are in your room and you deliver 87 00:08:49,540 --> 00:08:57,060 a message, this is a different feel than if they have, like, say, the Eiffel Tower recording studio, 88 00:08:57,060 --> 00:09:02,340 where I'm usually in, in a sense. And, you know, Sophie is delivering the message, but there's not, 89 00:09:02,340 --> 00:09:06,420 you don't get, you don't even get response. Yeah. You don't even know if people are like, 90 00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:11,700 like, looking critical, or they're like, I didn't get that, or, oh, that's great. And then we've 91 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:17,140 experienced that, like, two weeks ago, we've been introducing a new strategic, let's say, 92 00:09:17,140 --> 00:09:22,820 a framework that we want to work on. And till date, I'm not sure if that thing even arrived, 93 00:09:22,820 --> 00:09:28,900 you know, because people are like in between, you know, using, you know, WhatsAppping, checking the 94 00:09:28,900 --> 00:09:34,500 internet. Not that I think that people don't take the job serious, but it's about, you know, 95 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:41,700 a personal engagement. And especially, let's say, for a strategic topics, I think it's really hard. 96 00:09:42,580 --> 00:09:47,220 And you need to really, really rethink your communication part, you know, it's not done 97 00:09:47,220 --> 00:09:51,780 with a video conference, even though it's recorded, we basically, in the meantime, 98 00:09:52,340 --> 00:09:59,780 I've been recorded 1000 times, like, I don't care anymore, right? Right. How I look or how I speak, 99 00:09:59,780 --> 00:10:03,380 but it's like, we really need to think, okay, how do we get this to the teams? 100 00:10:03,380 --> 00:10:11,460 And how do we make sure, let's say that, you know, that the most junior person that has stepped into 101 00:10:11,460 --> 00:10:18,660 this company, is able to, you know, follow through on everything that is happening. And that's, I think, 102 00:10:18,660 --> 00:10:23,380 one of the biggest challenges that we are all going to face, because, you know, there is, let's say, 103 00:10:24,660 --> 00:10:30,260 like, eight months, yeah, it's okay. But think about it in 12 months, or in 16 months, how does this 104 00:10:30,260 --> 00:10:35,540 develop, and it will be get even more difficult, and losing touch, let's say, from a management 105 00:10:35,540 --> 00:10:40,740 perspective, losing touch to the individual who is there, you know, he or she hasn't understood 106 00:10:40,740 --> 00:10:47,060 anything. And in between, that usually has, you know, it always starts from the top, that you didn't do 107 00:10:47,060 --> 00:10:51,060 your communication, right, that you didn't do your job, right, that you didn't deliver the message, 108 00:10:51,060 --> 00:10:57,220 right. And it's your problem on a management, but it's not the problem of the poor guy sitting 109 00:10:57,220 --> 00:10:58,580 at the very end of the food chain. 110 00:10:58,580 --> 00:11:03,300 Yeah, I'd like to dig into that management. So that's something that's that has struck me is that 111 00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:10,180 all communications now are formal, right? Almost everything is a meeting, like when I used to manage 112 00:11:10,180 --> 00:11:14,260 large teams of people, if there was someone new, or the team was working on something, I could just 113 00:11:14,260 --> 00:11:20,020 walk over to their desk and say, how are things going? Are you are you adjusting, that there are 114 00:11:20,020 --> 00:11:24,580 these casual communication that I could use to get the health of the team to figure out if people and 115 00:11:24,580 --> 00:11:33,300 now, you mentioned, you know, if you, if you call someone in this environment, it actually might be a 116 00:11:33,300 --> 00:11:39,620 stressful thing to them, where it's, it's, it's not the, you know, everyone is, is anxious and on edge, 117 00:11:39,620 --> 00:11:46,820 and, and the economies in the world are, are sort of teetering. How do we, how do we make sure 118 00:11:47,620 --> 00:11:53,460 that we have these informal communications that I think are very, very important for our relationships 119 00:11:53,460 --> 00:12:00,660 and for people as managers to make sure that their team is, is healthy and doing well. So I guess it's, 120 00:12:00,660 --> 00:12:08,020 to me, it's, it's a little bit about understanding, but it's also about knowing the health of your team 121 00:12:08,020 --> 00:12:15,300 and, and being able to make them feel comfortable enough to work. Have you found anything that lets 122 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:19,700 you have those communications without them thinking that you're calling them to fire them? 123 00:12:21,860 --> 00:12:26,740 Actually, yeah, we have one very nice initiative, which I really like, and which I've been asked to 124 00:12:26,740 --> 00:12:34,980 to join. And we call it a random coffee. So we have like this, you know, random, random bot running 125 00:12:34,980 --> 00:12:39,860 that pairs you up with people. And then once a week, you do like a 30 minute chat with a person that you 126 00:12:39,860 --> 00:12:46,340 have never met before. I really liked that thing, because it's really casual and informal. But also 127 00:12:46,340 --> 00:12:56,820 there I see, you know, it's usually a very limited time, right? But if you, you know, start calling 128 00:12:56,820 --> 00:13:01,540 up people and say, Hey, I just wanted to check in, you know, what's going on? Let me see, you know, 129 00:13:01,540 --> 00:13:07,860 anything you want to talk about is like, you know, what happened. And then to be honest, I think it's 130 00:13:07,860 --> 00:13:14,660 also a matter of like, as I said, like, I'm in our company or the highest rank, right. But also to 131 00:13:14,660 --> 00:13:21,540 encourage, you know, the levels below to, to, to do this dialogue, right? It's a matter of trust, 132 00:13:21,540 --> 00:13:25,700 also for myself, but sometimes, you know, of course, I also want to know what's going on, 133 00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:32,740 right. But to encourage these leader, leadership principles of, let's say, fearless communication 134 00:13:32,740 --> 00:13:40,980 on all levels, right. And that goes down over various steps. And I think because the lower you 135 00:13:40,980 --> 00:13:46,180 get in a hierarchy, the more operational it gets, the more you talk about topics and not about feelings 136 00:13:46,180 --> 00:13:51,780 and say, or it's a, maybe like about leadership, it's more about, you know, how is the project status, 137 00:13:51,780 --> 00:13:59,620 how it's Lola. Maybe you need to really actively think about this human aspect of leadership. 138 00:14:00,740 --> 00:14:06,900 And, you know, really try to engage with your workforce also about non, as a non essential 139 00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:11,140 business topics, as stupid as it sounds. Yeah, because we are all just human beings, and we are 140 00:14:11,140 --> 00:14:19,060 all in the same situation, right. And none of us from, from the presidents to say, I don't know, 141 00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:25,060 don't want to put anyone on the, on the spot, but everyone out there, we are all facing the same 142 00:14:25,060 --> 00:14:30,180 thing. And, uh, yeah, but to encourage that and to really engage in the dialogue and not just talk 143 00:14:30,180 --> 00:14:35,460 about, you know, how's the project status, how efficient are you? Why is it delayed? Because 144 00:14:35,460 --> 00:14:40,340 that's the usual chat you have right in your day-to-day operations. It's just like, I'm only getting calls 145 00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:44,260 if something's going horribly wrong, right? No one's calling me to tell me how great the world is. 146 00:14:46,340 --> 00:14:50,820 But you need to maybe change this around. Yeah, I, I feel, I feel like it, whether, 147 00:14:50,820 --> 00:14:55,220 whether my work or personal life, it would be great if conversation started with, uh, the, 148 00:14:55,220 --> 00:15:00,100 if, if everything was casual, it was just like, you're not in trouble. And then the conversation 149 00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:05,220 could proceed just so, you know, because the worst of course is like, you know, uh, I'd like to talk 150 00:15:05,220 --> 00:15:12,980 to you. Let's schedule a time. And you're like about what, but yeah, so I, I wanted to mention. 151 00:15:12,980 --> 00:15:18,260 So one of the things we've used on at, um, at, at VMware on some of the teams is there is a Slack 152 00:15:18,260 --> 00:15:24,580 add-on called donut that, that will, that, that, that will arrange for you to have these little 153 00:15:24,580 --> 00:15:28,740 meetings with people you don't know. And it sort of manages it for you. There might be other things 154 00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:33,780 as well, but I, I found that to be useful. The same thing you were mentioning. So I think that's 155 00:15:33,780 --> 00:15:38,820 very useful. Yeah. I really love it. And I've met so many great people. I probably would have never 156 00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:44,500 engaged with before with such great also, uh, life, but what they experienced in their life, 157 00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:51,220 it's completely diverse. And, uh, I'm like, wow, you know, how amazing, um, this, uh, CV or this, uh, 158 00:15:52,340 --> 00:15:56,580 life experience has been, and we just share about that and not about, okay, which topic are you 159 00:15:56,580 --> 00:16:01,300 working on? And is it in time? Do you have any problems? Can I help you? Um, that's really a 160 00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:05,140 good thing. Yeah. But, um, I said, yeah, I don't know. Sometimes, you know, I need to, 161 00:16:05,940 --> 00:16:10,420 like, you know, you try to call it. That's also very interesting. Like, you know, you're calling 162 00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:15,700 people because, uh, like, I don't know what you're doing, but I'm constantly on the phone these days. 163 00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:20,900 And sometimes I'm so annoyed by phone calls, like that in the evening, I don't even want to call, 164 00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:25,460 I don't know, someone to like, I don't know, my mom, because I just don't want to have a phone 165 00:16:25,460 --> 00:16:30,740 call anymore. Right. Yeah. You're exhausted from it. Exactly. So I asked for arranging meetings, 166 00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:34,900 like do a 15 minute call with this person and this person, because then I have it out of my head. 167 00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:39,380 Right. But those people immediately, you know, right. Is there something going on that I should 168 00:16:39,380 --> 00:16:44,500 be aware of for this call? I'm like, no, I just, you know, I need, I need to have a small topic. 169 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:49,140 And before I call you five times and we call each other back and forth, you know, we just make a 15 170 00:16:49,140 --> 00:16:54,340 minute call, please. Yeah. It's nothing bad. Don't worry. In the meantime, I even write it down and 171 00:16:54,340 --> 00:17:00,660 then in the meeting note, nothing bad. Don't worry. Whether people work from home a lot or not, like, 172 00:17:00,660 --> 00:17:07,380 uh, it took me a long time in my career to realize that, uh, like I should schedule regular calls with 173 00:17:07,380 --> 00:17:12,660 people, like, you know, like people, like I, I do this with Rick, Rick and several other people where 174 00:17:12,660 --> 00:17:16,500 like, we don't have anything scheduled. We just talk every three weeks. And, you know, it's, 175 00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:21,380 it's a good way. I've always more or less been a remote worker, so I need to do that, 176 00:17:21,380 --> 00:17:26,580 but it's a good way one to like, just, as you say, schedule 15 minutes to casually catch up with 177 00:17:26,580 --> 00:17:30,660 people. But then also it's nice because both parties in that call know they're not in trouble. 178 00:17:31,540 --> 00:17:36,260 Right. Like there's no, uh, it's a lot easier to go into that. And then, you know, you can always 179 00:17:36,260 --> 00:17:41,300 just cancel it. If something comes up, it's not, uh, it's, it's not that big of a deal, but yeah, 180 00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:47,780 I mean, that is, yeah, I mean, I can see that would totally be a, uh, a problem. Man, 181 00:17:47,780 --> 00:17:52,420 the thing of talking with someone randomly that Slack has assigned to me, I got to think about that 182 00:17:52,420 --> 00:17:56,260 for a while, if that would be comfortable, but it probably is, uh, as with all these things, 183 00:17:56,260 --> 00:18:01,300 it's probably, you know, I actually think it's a little uncomfortable, but, but, um, because I 184 00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:07,740 rarely leave my home and I have no interactions with anyone. Yeah. You know, it's, it is, it is an 185 00:18:07,740 --> 00:18:15,100 important uncomfortableness. Yeah. Something that, that, that in order to, uh, one day I hope 186 00:18:15,100 --> 00:18:20,860 this will be over this pandemic and I'm going to have to be able to operate in the world like a 187 00:18:20,860 --> 00:18:26,180 functional human. And, and it's one of those things that kind of helps me keep that the ability to talk 188 00:18:26,180 --> 00:18:32,620 to someone I don't know, um, about things that I don't plan to talk about. I mean, I, I, that's really 189 00:18:32,620 --> 00:18:37,820 important to me because I'm losing my ability to, to, to do that. I feel very isolated. Right. 190 00:18:37,820 --> 00:18:43,060 Yeah. Um, but it is, it is uncomfortable. It is, it is uncomfortable. There's, there's no question, 191 00:18:43,060 --> 00:18:48,860 but sometimes we have to do things that are uncomfortable. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But 192 00:18:48,860 --> 00:18:54,480 also think about yourself. I mean, I, even, I received sometimes, uh, an invite where I'm like 193 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,800 at the first plan and you're sitting all alone here, you know, for like days and then you receive an 194 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:05,480 invite and you say like, you know, so what's that going to be about? Hmm. And you have like five 195 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:10,700 different things going on. But usually if you're in the office and you're like, it's just meeting 196 00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:15,040 either one of the assistants or, you know, one of your bosses, just like, Hey, have you seen this 197 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,760 invite? Can you just, you know, tell me what this is about? So now you start and again to call people 198 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:28,640 and they call you back or are you chatting? Very, I think that's, uh, the most, uh, uh, the worst 199 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:34,140 thing about it and the social interaction really it's, uh, I miss it. Yeah. As you're saying, 200 00:19:34,140 --> 00:19:41,160 like, you know, back, back a few topics, like when, when you're trying to sort of like trickle 201 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,780 down, here's our strategy, the things that we want and therefore, you know, kind of, kind 202 00:19:44,780 --> 00:19:50,680 of allowing teams to know what the principles are and operate on their own to, to deliver on 203 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,780 them. Like you're saying, it's important if you're managing that way to make sure people 204 00:19:54,780 --> 00:20:00,940 understand all of that. Right. Like, I mean, in, in, in, uh, in contrast to that, whether 205 00:20:00,940 --> 00:20:04,860 or not this is a good idea or not, right. If you have a command and control thing, it's 206 00:20:04,860 --> 00:20:09,840 just sort of like, I give you the things to do and you do them. Right. But, and, and so, 207 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,260 you know, when you're not in person, I mean, you have to use, when you're in person, you 208 00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:17,700 have to use a lot of body language to see if people are understanding. Cause that's, that's 209 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:22,040 a lot of the job that a manager needs to do is not so much tell you to do something, but 210 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:27,520 it's the manager's responsibility to make sure you understand, to put it. And so like, 211 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,880 how are you, since people aren't in a room and people are turning their video off, like, 212 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,500 what are you, uh, what are you doing there to like, make sure people understand things? 213 00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:41,520 Yeah. Well, so for a second, when we did the strategy part, I basically what I did, like 214 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,680 the, say the 80% of the people I called again. 215 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:52,620 Right. And, and I said like, you know, are we, you know, are we on the right path? 216 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,080 Because I said, if you're sitting in a room together and you're presenting at least, let's 217 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:02,780 say to 20 people, like your, let's say your extended reports. Right. And you see people 218 00:21:02,780 --> 00:21:06,720 either, you know, they're nodding their head or you're like, you know, critical or whatever, 219 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:11,860 but you cannot see this on 20, uh, 20 screens. Right. So what I would, yeah. But if it's 220 00:21:11,860 --> 00:21:17,980 important, uh, I would call them up. That's the only way. Yeah. And I said, this is the 221 00:21:17,980 --> 00:21:22,460 most important thing. Like the things that you would have usually thought, you know, this 222 00:21:22,460 --> 00:21:28,960 is all clear. Um, I then suddenly not clear anymore. And we've had this, like with, especially 223 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,780 with the strategy thing, it was for me, such a lessons learned because like, you know, we 224 00:21:33,780 --> 00:21:38,600 worked on the strategy framework and we had like lots of thoughts and then we introduced 225 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,340 it to the next, basically the next level. Right. But, and they were completely somewhere 226 00:21:43,340 --> 00:21:48,540 else. Like, and then we started to discussing the one said, Hey, the other one said, uh, 227 00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:55,100 uh, X, what's going on here. Right. And it taught me really a lesson that, uh, you know, 228 00:21:55,100 --> 00:22:00,500 you, you need to bring people on the way and you need to really think about how to bring 229 00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:05,620 this and which messages to bring to the, to the team and how you communicate and do it 230 00:22:05,620 --> 00:22:12,840 again. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know, the, the, the, the act of calling people up, like 231 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,220 it's making me think that, you know, if there is a, normally if you're in person, you can 232 00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:22,400 rely on like all this other nonverbal stuff to understand what's going on. And so therefore 233 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,640 if that gets removed, I guess you just have to amplify the use of the tools you have. 234 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,100 Right. So like a lot more talking and a lot more checking in than if you were just visually 235 00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:36,820 looking at people recalibrate on, on that, which means, uh, you know, more phone calls, 236 00:22:36,820 --> 00:22:39,540 but probably work. I mean, you got to make it work. 237 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:46,520 Yeah, you are definitely. Yeah. I mean, that's very interesting. You know, you, uh, most likely 238 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:53,300 the pandemic has taught us to trust the people more to get the job done, but focus our leadership 239 00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:59,420 skills on, you know, getting the message, right. Um, talk with people and to understand where 240 00:22:59,420 --> 00:23:06,260 they are right now, but like, I don't know. I don't, I almost have no conversation about 241 00:23:06,260 --> 00:23:10,580 it. Say, you know, deliveries that have not been met. Like, you know, you need to deliver 242 00:23:10,580 --> 00:23:16,160 that functionality by then. And that, um, didn't happen. Right. But you talk much more about 243 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:22,440 it. Say this, uh, you know, let's say either emotions or, you know, working model or, you 244 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:27,140 know, different messages that have been communicated by different people because, you know, it's even 245 00:23:27,140 --> 00:23:33,820 hard if you have like, um, let's say, uh, one escalation with involving four to five people, 246 00:23:33,820 --> 00:23:37,960 you need to call all of them. And then probably you need to call them all together and bring them 247 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,320 into one conference to get this all sorted out. Right. But until you're there, you're like, 248 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,980 you know, you you've spent three hours only calling. Yeah. The amount of time it takes to 249 00:23:47,980 --> 00:23:53,740 deal with something has just grown. Right. So, so much. Another thing that I used to manage 250 00:23:53,980 --> 00:23:58,820 entirely remote teams back when I was at Canonical working, uh, working on Ubuntu server. Um, 251 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:05,100 one of the things that I found when I hired people onto these remote teams is that about 252 00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:11,500 one in five just had difficulty working remotely. Either it was psychologically difficult for them. 253 00:24:11,660 --> 00:24:17,840 It was, and, and at that time where there were, it wasn't mandatory, you know, they usually 254 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:25,440 moved on, um, in, in these, in, in these days, you know, how, how do you, when you, if you have 255 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:31,120 someone that has never worked remotely and they're not adjusting to it well, you know, what do you do? 256 00:24:31,180 --> 00:24:33,060 How do you help them? Have you come up with anything? 257 00:24:33,620 --> 00:24:40,480 To be honest. No. We, we've been, we, what we are doing right now, uh, as well. I mean, that's, 258 00:24:40,660 --> 00:24:44,880 but it has nothing. Yeah. We, we are actually talking more about mental health, to be quite honest, 259 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:51,480 in our company, because we've been experiencing people having issues being alone and their motivations. 260 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,940 And then, and I'm, I'm also very transparent on that in the company. Like I have also had, 261 00:24:56,020 --> 00:25:02,460 you know, issues, um, you know, being alone all the time, because one of my, my, my job is to 262 00:25:02,460 --> 00:25:07,300 interact with people and making sure that they are like, you know, there, right. It, this is, 263 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,160 I think my key job to know the people connecting the dots, bring the people together. And, and, 264 00:25:12,220 --> 00:25:15,960 uh, you know, I always said, I sometimes had to really go to the office and meet at least two or 265 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,780 three other people because like I hear the ceiling was, you know, crashing basically above me. 266 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:28,520 And so we've been, uh, driving or we're currently one of our HR, um, people is driving, 267 00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:34,960 topping on mental health a lot, but also like, you know, best practices on how to cope with, uh, 268 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:42,440 a remote office right now. But you know, the thing is, and I, it's, I know, um, also for me, 269 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:48,920 a complete remote setup is difficult to do. Um, but we, we all need to somehow get used to it, 270 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,800 um, I believe. And a lot of company companies will probably move into a remote first approach, 271 00:25:53,960 --> 00:26:00,000 right. Um, which is fine. I mean, I'm like, I'm not just because I personally like to interact with 272 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:07,760 people in a, let's say, um, uh, closer situation, let's say an onsite situation. I don't speak for, 273 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:14,120 uh, uh, the whole population. And, uh, in our company, a lot of engineers, especially asking for this remote, 274 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:19,240 uh, first opportunity, uh, which is very interesting, but, uh, you're right. 275 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,560 These are things that we need to, to, to talk about. So mental health is on our record, but then to 276 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:31,500 our routines, there've been incredibly many people, which I love in our company that have been driving 277 00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:37,180 initiatives to connect. Like they have, let's say, this random coffees, you know, then they have, 278 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:41,580 we have a move together challenge where you are, you know, going for a run and then it's like a 279 00:26:41,580 --> 00:26:46,180 challenge who runs the most. And then we donate stuff. So there's lots of activities going on to 280 00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:51,780 bring people together at least virtually, but it's, yeah, it's, uh, it's difficult, right? 281 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,980 So, so, so going through that and I don't know, maybe, maybe Ricky, you've had experience with 282 00:26:56,980 --> 00:27:02,760 this too, but like, well, I mean, it's different nowadays, but how much, I mean, how much time do 283 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:10,240 you think you budget and in general people should budget for that kind of stuff? Just like, you know, 284 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:17,460 employee happiness and mental stability, right? Cause that is kind of a new set of things to, 285 00:27:17,580 --> 00:27:24,100 to worry about. And it seems like, or to work on. And it seems like, I mean, uh, if, if, if, uh, 286 00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:28,320 if our employer VMware is anything, they're spending a lot of time thinking about that. We get, we get a 287 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,520 lot of emails, which is nice and comforting, but there's a lot of stuff going on, but I imagine 288 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,020 there's an uptick in that. So like, I don't know how much, how much of your time do you think you're, 289 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:43,320 you spend on that and we'll spend on it now as an employee and the question is for your working time 290 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:49,980 or in general. Yeah. Just from like, kind of like, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm curious, like if, 291 00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:54,020 if a manager's thinking like, here's how I'm going to decide to spend my time, right? Like I'm going 292 00:27:54,020 --> 00:27:59,580 to have to spend more time on, on this, this mental stuff. Like, I don't know. I mean, what's a rough 293 00:27:59,580 --> 00:28:03,240 estimate of how much time. It depends how good the manager is. 294 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:11,740 If you're leading people, if you're in a leadership position, I say you should roughly spend around 60 to 295 00:28:11,740 --> 00:28:18,040 70% of your time, making sure, you know, your people are engaged and, and be there for them and talk to 296 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:24,120 them. And it's just about checking in, you know, you can also check in about other things, but to not 297 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:33,180 ignore the fact. Right. And that's your job as a, let's say, as a leader of a company and, or of a team. 298 00:28:33,620 --> 00:28:39,380 It's a responsibility as people actually, and you should hire people that are able to do the job for you, 299 00:28:39,580 --> 00:28:45,000 that you don't have to worry that they, you know, that they don't get the job done. And I think it was one of the 300 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:51,360 things I've mentioned many times in my, in my talks. It's like, you know, why is there a lot of hierarchy? 301 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:56,820 Because there is always the fear that the people on the bottom don't get the job done in a proper way. 302 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:03,120 Right. And I think that needs to change. You need to hire people that do the job. And they are the 303 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:08,820 experts in doing that and give them the liberty to also sometimes make a mistake, because that's where 304 00:29:08,820 --> 00:29:13,620 you learn. And, and you as a leader can focus on business, what leadership is about to take care 305 00:29:13,620 --> 00:29:20,240 about the people, right? And make sure you have the right people on the right job. But usually we are 306 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:27,440 focusing a lot about controlling the outcome of a delivery of, of, of an objective that needs to 307 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,980 be done. Right. Because it's easier, easier than to talk about feelings and emotions and not being 308 00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:38,100 present and stuff like this. Are there any things that have kind of like surprised you as far as like 309 00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:42,600 benefits or good things that, that you weren't expecting since, uh, that, that you, y'all have 310 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:53,640 encountered since March? Um, related to work. Yeah. Cause I'm a much better baker. That's much. 311 00:29:54,060 --> 00:29:57,740 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I think in Amsterdam, people have been surprised by how much 312 00:29:57,740 --> 00:30:03,160 stuff in their house they no longer want judging by the piles of trash. Every, I've been selling 313 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:12,220 everything on eBay, uh, like, uh, classified. Um, so no, I actually, one thing, uh, that's from, 314 00:30:12,340 --> 00:30:18,240 and I'm talking now on pure, um, management perspective, let's say from a company perspective, 315 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:25,500 that might not be 100% the same opinion I would have as a, as an employee or as a person, but our 316 00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:34,500 productivity has been improved a lot, at least on paper. So people are more focused on, on actual 317 00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:40,640 work and spend less time on other things. So as I'm saying now, of course, from a product productivity 318 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,920 perspective, I'm happy, you know, as a company CEO can say, great, our people work more and 319 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:52,700 do less other stuff. Right. As said, as an employee or as a person, on my personal opinion, I still 320 00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:58,380 believe, you know, we have like this 80, 20 rule, you can do 20% of other stuff during your work time 321 00:30:58,380 --> 00:31:05,360 and that's fine. Yeah. You don't have to only work. Right. Um, so that improved a lot. And what I also 322 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:12,680 really like, I think the things that have been very much, um, organized by the company. So we are doing 323 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:19,560 lots of cultural things like, you know, we have a weekly with the whole company, we have different 324 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:24,760 after work activities that, like I said, have been organized by the company. And where I always thought, 325 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:31,120 okay, you know, if we do not pay for say the beer or the pizza, no one will show up. And I have to 326 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,600 say like lots of people have taken the initiative to drive things throughout the organization, um, 327 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:42,240 independently. So as I said, this, uh, move together challenge, I didn't have to order it. Um, 328 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,760 somebody came up with the idea and just put it out there or the, you know, random coffee talks or 329 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,280 because if people are taking the initiative to organize something and then the whole company 330 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,840 participates. And I think, uh, that's, uh, even greater than to everything, you know, it's done 331 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:04,820 them by the culture and communication team in the company. They, they do also a lot, but most of the 332 00:32:04,820 --> 00:32:10,100 things are actually driven by the employees themselves. And that's what I really, really like. 333 00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:14,080 Yeah, that's interesting. I'm, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think of the experience we've had, Rick. 334 00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:23,980 And I think, I think, I think there is a lot more, let's call it bottoms up, taking care of that 20% 335 00:32:23,980 --> 00:32:31,940 stuff that I would have expected that people, people are pretty better than I would think it's sort of 336 00:32:31,940 --> 00:32:36,440 self-managing, making sure they have a good working environment. It's a weird way of putting it, but 337 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:44,460 that is, that is, that is nice. Hmm. Yeah, no, I, I, I think so too. And, and I think down at the team 338 00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:50,180 level, people are making sure they have virtual happy hours where people just sit on zoom and drink a 339 00:32:50,180 --> 00:32:57,700 beer together. Right. There are, yeah, there are lots of ways that, that people are trying to cope, 340 00:32:57,820 --> 00:33:03,840 which is expected, right? I think that, I think that it's very, very important as we see some people 341 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:10,020 trying to cope. As I start to go through my head now of, of, of peers and colleagues, I think we have 342 00:33:10,020 --> 00:33:14,820 to keep in mind that some people, some of our introverted colleagues might be disappearing a little 343 00:33:14,820 --> 00:33:20,340 bit. They might feel less comfortable with that. And, and, and we might have to work extra, extra hard. 344 00:33:20,380 --> 00:33:26,540 They might feel more isolated. I'm, I'm, I think I've, I've become more cognizant that I need to work 345 00:33:26,540 --> 00:33:33,400 hard to reach out to people that are struggling. Yeah. We, we had a team event where we got a yakitori 346 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:41,040 chef all online. Yeah. It was nice. We learned how to cut up chicken and make a sauce and, and then you 347 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,480 get to eat something. It's a, it's, it's good. It's good to like, be busy with your hands when 348 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,520 you're, when you're hanging out and everything. So, so Sophie, are you still hiring? 349 00:33:51,060 --> 00:33:52,060 Yes, we are hiring. 350 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,320 Yeah. Yeah. You should, you should do a little ad for yourself. 351 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:56,600 If anyone's interested. 352 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:04,780 So, so if you want to join, I'm not, I'm always saying that my job is to build the greatest company 353 00:34:04,780 --> 00:34:12,120 on earth, especially for people working in tech and in creative jobs. And we are still looking 354 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:19,980 for people that are driving with us the digital transformation of Mercedes. Of course, we have 355 00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:25,440 our ups and downs with this big mothership, but ultimately this is the unique opportunity 356 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:31,060 to shape the future of one of the biggest car brands in the world. And, you know, all of 357 00:34:31,060 --> 00:34:37,260 the strategies are going through words, digital and online channels, and it's a great opportunity 358 00:34:37,260 --> 00:34:43,700 to be part of it. And I said, we have everything under mercedes-benz.io. All of our jobs are 359 00:34:43,700 --> 00:34:49,140 listed there. Actually one of the killer job ads that we currently have is we're looking for 360 00:34:49,140 --> 00:34:55,500 a CTO. And that's a once in a lifetime opportunity, I would say. So please feel free to apply. 361 00:34:55,660 --> 00:34:56,740 I'm looking forward to it. 362 00:34:56,740 --> 00:35:00,540 That's good. Well, thanks so much for making the time it was as I was joking before we were 363 00:35:00,540 --> 00:35:04,620 recording, you know, you, you and I have been trying to find an excuse to record something 364 00:35:04,620 --> 00:35:10,540 for a while. So this was a topic to have really good. Yeah. Yeah. And, and with, uh, with that, 365 00:35:10,540 --> 00:35:17,940 we'll, we'll see everyone next time. Thanks. Bye. Great. Great day, wherever you are. Right.