1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,160
All right. Welcome back, folks, for another episode of Tanzu Talk. My guest today is Kevin

2
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:19,600
Jackson, who's the CEO of CG GlobalNet, but also for the topic of this episode, he recently

3
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,680
authored a book, Click to Transform. Kevin, can you please give us a quick introduction?

4
00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:31,940
Yeah, hello. Thank you very much, Dominic, for having me on. So, yes, I'm the CEO of

5
00:00:31,940 --> 00:00:38,840
GC GlobalNet, and what we do is we actually help both government and commercial companies

6
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:47,040
in their digital transformation journey. So, that was really the purpose of the book, because

7
00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:53,900
training, education, and understanding your destination is always the most important aspect

8
00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:54,700
of any journey.

9
00:00:54,700 --> 00:01:00,260
So, that kind of gets to my first question, actually, which is really to understand, because

10
00:01:00,260 --> 00:01:08,340
the book is very broad and comprehensive on a lot of different aspects of cloud computing

11
00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:17,340
and 5G network transition. And so, my question to you is first to understand, who was the book

12
00:01:17,340 --> 00:01:21,680
for? Like, what's the intended audience that you had in mind for this book?

13
00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:30,440
So, to be honest, it was two audiences. The actual business decision maker, who was focused on their

14
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:38,480
key performance indicators and ROIs and all of the important things that make a business run,

15
00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:48,240
but also the technologist, who, you know, historically, we love our speeds and feeds, and we like to geek out, right?

16
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:57,480
But, in today's world, you need to really meld the business with the technological enablers.

17
00:01:57,700 --> 00:02:06,460
And that requires communication between the business lead and the technology lead.

18
00:02:06,460 --> 00:02:18,460
So, the book is a sort of a way of explaining things like cloud computing in a business sense, because cloud computing isn't about technology.

19
00:02:18,460 --> 00:02:29,300
It's really about business models, new business models, new operational models, new economic models, new legal models,

20
00:02:29,300 --> 00:02:39,220
and all of these put together are now being transitioned into new fifth-generation telecommunications networks,

21
00:02:39,220 --> 00:02:47,980
which is a whole new ball of wax. So, this communication, this education, the way to

22
00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:57,980
communicate with respect to a industry goal, industry vertical, is just critical in digital transformation.

23
00:02:57,980 --> 00:03:08,740
Okay, so that makes sense. So, for more of the business minded folks, you're using their language, right, around a lot of these KPIs and how they measure business performance,

24
00:03:08,740 --> 00:03:14,340
but you're then introducing them to some of the fundamental principles around cloud computing,

25
00:03:14,340 --> 00:03:22,140
and vice versa, for folks who are more technologists and are probably well aware of the technology side of cloud computing,

26
00:03:22,140 --> 00:03:29,980
it's giving them some of the business context so that they can, in turn, have those conversations with their business stakeholders.

27
00:03:29,980 --> 00:03:31,900
I get that right. Okay.

28
00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:32,900
Right, absolutely.

29
00:03:32,900 --> 00:03:45,900
The other aspect of it is that we have really jumped from the physical world into the virtual world and digital transformation is a key component of that.

30
00:03:45,900 --> 00:03:51,780
Help me understand what you mean there. Can you give me an example of the jump from the physical to the virtual?

31
00:03:51,780 --> 00:04:04,540
I can think of, you know, ways over the last 20 years that there's been jumps from physical to virtual, but what are you seeing right now that inspired you to take this on?

32
00:04:04,540 --> 00:04:16,540
Well, some of the physical products that we are used to having are now getting digital extensions, digital adjuncts.

33
00:04:16,540 --> 00:04:28,300
A simple idea was the Fitbit that would help you keep track of what you were physically doing, the calories, the distance.

34
00:04:28,300 --> 00:04:40,300
But there are a lot of virtual aspects, like comparing you with your friend or competing in a virtual world.

35
00:04:40,300 --> 00:04:48,060
And this became even more important when we all got locked into our homes with the pandemic.

36
00:04:48,060 --> 00:04:49,060
Yes.

37
00:04:49,060 --> 00:04:57,820
And the extension of things to make more entertainment, to make your work entertaining.

38
00:04:57,820 --> 00:05:02,820
And this is really an important aspect of our entire life now.

39
00:05:02,820 --> 00:05:07,580
Your work entertaining or your workouts entertaining.

40
00:05:07,580 --> 00:05:11,580
And I've got some friends who are quite, quite into their Pelotons.

41
00:05:11,580 --> 00:05:19,780
So, it sounds like it's along the same lines of this, you know, even sort of physical devices.

42
00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:24,340
And so, this kind of gets to manufacturers, right?

43
00:05:24,340 --> 00:05:45,600
Who you, you know, maybe would have think of being laggards in digital transformation, but all the more reason why, you know, manufacturers need to embrace this as much as, say, financial services, which has kind of, you know, one of those usually first cutting edge to adopt digital because they're already operating with a sort of abstract concept, right?

44
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:45,980
Money.

45
00:05:46,100 --> 00:05:46,980
What even is money?

46
00:05:46,980 --> 00:06:12,820
You know, but actually, in manufacturing, for instance, you build a physical product, but now you have to create a virtual representation of that product, a digital twin, so that you can do maintenance on the product or predict how it will operate in the real world.

47
00:06:12,820 --> 00:06:22,080
And you use the learnings from the virtual world to improve the physical product in financial services.

48
00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:28,420
Well, you think fiat money or the dollar bill is something that you really can't conceive.

49
00:06:28,980 --> 00:06:40,780
What about Bitcoin, which is a digital currency that many countries are, and many countries are creating their own digital currency?

50
00:06:41,380 --> 00:06:47,800
So, even the financial world is going into another level of virtual transaction.

51
00:06:48,180 --> 00:06:48,440
Okay.

52
00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:48,980
All right.

53
00:06:49,020 --> 00:07:09,940
So, this kind of, you know, there is sort of the, in the aughts, kind of an initial shift to a lot of web experiences, but now you're seeing this kind of whole extra wave where across industries, things are just pushed to the next level in terms of the digital capabilities that both customers are expecting

54
00:07:09,940 --> 00:07:13,380
and opportunities for those businesses.

55
00:07:13,380 --> 00:07:27,080
What do you think is the biggest challenge before we dive into some of the specific questions I have, what do you think is the biggest challenge that companies face with embracing this shift from physical to virtual?

56
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:36,760
Well, one of the biggest issues is that you're no longer engaging in a one-to-one relationship with your customer.

57
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:46,760
You, as an organization, now sit in the middle of an ecosystem where there's a many-to-many relationship.

58
00:07:46,760 --> 00:08:13,400
So, digital transformation is really about being able to service the ecosystem and living in a world of coopetition where you not just compete with other organizations,

59
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:19,160
but you cooperate with other organizations in order to build the entire marketplace.

60
00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:20,000
Okay.

61
00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,820
That makes sense that from a business perspective, that's a big shift.

62
00:08:25,580 --> 00:08:25,780
Right.

63
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:37,720
So, and I think we'll see in the book, you know, you talk particularly around things like API management and, you know, how that supports that sort of ecosystem approach, right?

64
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:52,140
Because you then can present this API ecosystem and, you know, engage with these other parties who maybe in the past you wouldn't have paid any attention to, you know, they're not competitors or anything.

65
00:08:52,140 --> 00:09:01,500
But now they actually, there's some way you can bring in value and APIs are an important sort of touch point to bring in these vendors.

66
00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:03,700
So, there's a great section in the book about that.

67
00:09:04,460 --> 00:09:04,900
Yes.

68
00:09:05,340 --> 00:09:05,780
Absolutely.

69
00:09:06,460 --> 00:09:14,160
The API economy really visualizes this ecosystem.

70
00:09:14,660 --> 00:09:15,100
Yeah.

71
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:20,720
And we've got a lot of Spring developers, Java Spring developers, who do listen to this podcast.

72
00:09:21,340 --> 00:09:33,000
And, you know, that's one of the things in the recent state of Spring research study we did, that one of the number one things that folks are building with Spring and Spring Boot are APIs.

73
00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:38,520
And so, it's, you know, there's, there's a lot of momentum, particularly in the Java ecosystem.

74
00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:43,260
And I'm sure other languages as well, but that's just a recent data point to throw out there.

75
00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,640
I wanted to also look at just sort of stepping back.

76
00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:59,660
You, as we talked before, that this book really provides a kind of common way for both technologists and business people to kind of get on the same page about what cloud computing represents.

77
00:10:00,060 --> 00:10:13,100
You sort of, you, you talk about hybrid models and, and the, the conclusion that I took away is like, okay, it's almost like, yes, hybrid is the way things are going to be.

78
00:10:13,820 --> 00:10:18,060
Both hybrid cloud, as well as the broader hybrid IT model you described.

79
00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:25,620
And you also talk about multi-cloud and you cite a lot of evidence that sort of shows that multi-cloud is also going to be very much a reality.

80
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:38,200
And, you know, but there's, that's where folks are often struggling and not equipped to handle the governance and management from that multi-cloud plane.

81
00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:48,240
But I kind of wanted to just put it to you, because I hear this sometimes from folks where it's like, well, we want to go all in on XYZ specific cloud provider.

82
00:10:48,860 --> 00:10:50,180
And that's our plan.

83
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:51,380
But what do you have to say?

84
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,420
Is that something that, is that also a potential path that folks go down?

85
00:10:55,420 --> 00:11:02,300
Well, if there's nothing else that's a truth in life, is that change happens.

86
00:11:02,940 --> 00:11:13,640
If you commit to a single cloud service provider, you are limiting your ability to change.

87
00:11:15,260 --> 00:11:20,440
Before, vendor lock-in was always a bad thing.

88
00:11:21,180 --> 00:11:27,280
So, why is vendor lock-in and cloud computing all of a sudden a good thing?

89
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:28,720
It's not.

90
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:39,380
Contrary to what every cloud service provider wants you to believe, the cloud computing model doesn't fit every enterprise need.

91
00:11:39,380 --> 00:11:52,380
And when the cloud service provider actually designs their services, they are only addressing about 80% of their targeted market.

92
00:11:53,100 --> 00:12:01,860
And each of the cloud service providers actually independently target different customer sets.

93
00:12:02,140 --> 00:12:05,520
Not all cloud service providers are the same.

94
00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:18,500
And even if you are that particular provider's perfect customer, you would still have about 20% of your IT needs still unfulfilled.

95
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:27,040
So, that's where maybe a managed service or a traditional data center capability comes into play.

96
00:12:27,340 --> 00:12:31,660
You know, looking at the enterprise segment, there's going to be something left on the table.

97
00:12:31,660 --> 00:12:41,000
Okay, I just kind of wanted to play a little bit of devil's advocate there with the sort of implied assertion that, you know, hybrid and probably multi-cloud are the future.

98
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,880
And just sort of see what your reaction was.

99
00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,720
Yeah, actually, it's today.

100
00:12:47,180 --> 00:12:52,760
Every, even as an individual, how many cloud services do you consume?

101
00:12:52,760 --> 00:13:12,080
I know I listen to Pandora, a cloud service, when I'm working out with my Fitbit, a cloud service, and answering my email on either Gmail, one cloud service provider, or Azure and Outlook, another cloud service provider.

102
00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:24,780
Well, sure, and you've got, you know, the proliferation of different SaaS offerings for many of those common business applications, right?

103
00:13:24,820 --> 00:13:34,100
The ones that probably aren't differentiating your business, you know, core CRM, HR management tools, you know, you need them to run your business.

104
00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:39,580
But they're probably not what's going to have your company stand out from the rest.

105
00:13:40,540 --> 00:13:42,740
And, you know, I think that in large...

106
00:13:42,740 --> 00:13:44,980
And they're talking to different cloud service providers.

107
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:46,300
Different cloud service providers.

108
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:48,080
I guess this is great.

109
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,100
Yeah, where I hear it more is maybe more on the core IT side.

110
00:13:53,100 --> 00:14:04,860
Where it's, you know, we're talking about, you know, what is the raw infrastructure platform that we're going to use for our own custom development?

111
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:12,700
Are we going to custom develop and run it in our own data center, where we probably have a lot of our existing custom development?

112
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,340
Or are we going to try to move everything over to various cloud providers or a single cloud provider?

113
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,420
And there's certainly some simplicity in just having one.

114
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,560
But, you know, simplicity is not always an option.

115
00:14:26,220 --> 00:14:26,660
Right.

116
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:32,640
And you have risk with choosing any option.

117
00:14:32,860 --> 00:14:36,640
So cloud computing is a risk management exercise.

118
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:38,360
I like that soundbite.

119
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,380
Cloud computing is a risk management exercise.

120
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,180
So the next question I had, I realized, like, I wrote it as I was kind of early on in the book.

121
00:14:47,220 --> 00:14:49,500
And then later you actually addressed part of it.

122
00:14:49,540 --> 00:14:59,180
But it had to do with reasons for digital transformation that you lay out at the beginning, often around kind of, you know, the enhancing the customer experience.

123
00:14:59,180 --> 00:15:03,800
But you didn't cite things like cost savings or cost reduction.

124
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:10,920
Now, later you do talk about how cloud computing does provide a kind of cost flexibility model.

125
00:15:11,540 --> 00:15:13,860
And that is an important part of the shift.

126
00:15:13,860 --> 00:15:29,640
But just given what we're seeing right now with the impact of the pandemic and a lot of folks facing, you know, either just a lot of uncertainty in their own budgeting process or very real cuts.

127
00:15:29,820 --> 00:15:41,040
Another, you know, another recent survey we did with Forrester, we found, you know, what sort of your priorities and cost savings jumped up to the top of the list.

128
00:15:41,180 --> 00:15:50,080
Not surprisingly, as this is our biggest concern and our biggest constraint, right, in terms of being able to invest in modernizing our application.

129
00:15:50,080 --> 00:16:06,000
I guess the question is, what do you think, how do you think folks can go about affording to invest in digital transformation and sort of the work that needs to go into building out those ecosystems and the digital twins, for example, in manufacturing?

130
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:12,300
How do they find ways to invest in that in this current environment where budgets are shrinking?

131
00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:19,440
And do they need to show cost savings in order to justify investment?

132
00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:24,020
Or should that not be the criteria for digital transformation?

133
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:35,820
Increased efficiency and increased relevance in the marketplace with respect to your products and services deliver much more value than reduced cost.

134
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:44,840
Delivering the same thing at a reduced cost is a survival strategy, not a winning one.

135
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,380
If that's what you need, by all means, do it.

136
00:16:49,380 --> 00:16:56,140
But reduced cost should actually be seen as a side benefit of digital transformation.

137
00:16:57,060 --> 00:17:11,000
The real value is delivered through the organization's ability to deliver these products and services better, faster, and to a much broader customer base.

138
00:17:11,580 --> 00:17:14,000
This means more revenue.

139
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:24,060
And then enterprises can also create unique products and services that will differentiate them in the market.

140
00:17:24,540 --> 00:17:27,760
So it's about the business case.

141
00:17:28,260 --> 00:17:31,120
It's not about reduced cost.

142
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:46,480
You know, coming back to something I hear from a lot of technologists who are eager to reduce some technical debt so that they can move faster, do something that they can, you know, engage in some form of this digital transformation, right?

143
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,400
They've picked some aspect of their portfolio.

144
00:17:49,400 --> 00:18:12,980
In the spirit of empowering and enabling those technologists to make that case, what do you recommend that they go do to identify, you know, hey, this is about being able to deliver better, faster, and to more people, and therefore capture more value, as opposed to just do the same thing but cheaper, which is a survival tactic, as you say.

145
00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:22,860
Well, there are some things that aren't unique to your differentiation in the marketplace.

146
00:18:22,860 --> 00:18:31,760
These commodity services that cloud computing actually can deliver at a much lower cost.

147
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:41,900
The challenge, however, is that you also have to simultaneously change your operational model.

148
00:18:43,820 --> 00:18:51,500
identify your commodity processes, your commodity IET requirements.

149
00:18:51,500 --> 00:19:08,240
Then you can select appropriate cloud services, but take the necessary step of modifying your operations to take advantage of those cloud services.

150
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:19,920
things like auto-scaling or building your IET to match its demand.

151
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:31,760
The most important tool when you need to reduce cost by leveraging cloud is the O-N-O-F-F switch.

152
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:45,400
Because if you run your infrastructure in the cloud the same way you run your infrastructure in your data center, it's going to cost more.

153
00:19:46,540 --> 00:19:59,440
So you have to change your operational processes to take advantage of the ability to turn infrastructure on and turn infrastructure off.

154
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,520
That's how you reduce cost.

155
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,440
You know, I'd almost argue that it's just the O-F-F part.

156
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,000
And it's really about the cost savings.

157
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:24,780
You know, the on part is about the speed to market, right, because that's the challenge in a sort of legacy model is if we have to get ready for a scaling event.

158
00:20:24,780 --> 00:20:42,400
And here we are in November, to the extent that there will be any kind of normalcy around Cyber Five, Black Friday through Cyber Monday, which now apparently starts on Thanksgiving Day itself.

159
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:43,960
And that's why you get five days of it.

160
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:52,640
Oh, I actually thought Black Money, I saw a commercial, Black Friday started today, didn't it?

161
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,720
You know, like, it's just a Monday and early November, why not?

162
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:07,560
But, you know, like that kind of scaling event or, you know, you're a telco provider and you're getting ready for a new iPhone that's going to launch.

163
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:13,220
Or you're in insurance and you've got open enrollment season or, you know, whatever it is.

164
00:21:13,220 --> 00:21:17,600
Different industries have their own scaling events that you can see coming.

165
00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:28,540
But some folks would spend seven months preparing for them because, you know, it wasn't just about, hey, like, can we forecast what the peak demand is going to be?

166
00:21:28,620 --> 00:21:29,820
Then we've got to order the servers.

167
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:34,960
Then we might have to test, does this application even work if we park more servers under it?

168
00:21:34,980 --> 00:21:40,460
Because it doesn't, you know, especially monolithic applications, they're not chewing gum.

169
00:21:40,460 --> 00:21:46,400
You can't just stretch it and, like, park more machines and expect the application to behave the same way.

170
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:47,760
So you have to do a lot of testing.

171
00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:51,060
And so that on switch is the key.

172
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:59,200
And I agree with you there that there's similarly the same changes in the operational model to take advantage of that on switch

173
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:05,820
the same way that the off switch is really how you actually can expect to achieve any of those cost benefits.

174
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:07,000
Exactly.

175
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:18,360
So if you just go to cloud without changing your operation so that you can enable and leverage that off switch, you can't reduce cost.

176
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:18,820
Yeah.

177
00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:19,440
Okay.

178
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:27,920
What are some other examples of those operational changes that are critical to being able to make that shift

179
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,940
and be able to expect to realize any of those cost savings benefits?

180
00:22:32,940 --> 00:22:42,760
Well, a lot of people talk about the change from capital expenditure model to an operational expenditure model in cloud.

181
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:57,780
So that's all fine and good, but if your accountant in your organization doesn't know, don't know how to read the bill that comes from the cloud service provider

182
00:22:57,780 --> 00:23:12,580
or have a process that can actually change the acquisition model and the accounting model to take advantage of when you turn off the infrastructure,

183
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,300
then you can't realize your savings.

184
00:23:18,340 --> 00:23:26,100
I remember working before when we were actually operationally and from the technological point of view,

185
00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:38,960
we weren't using or consuming IT services, but the financial organization didn't have a way of not accounting for it.

186
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,400
So it always showed up.

187
00:23:42,820 --> 00:23:43,280
Wow.

188
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:43,660
Okay.

189
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:43,920
Yeah.

190
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:52,440
I think that's, I, you know, I've done enough, you know, basic accounting to see where those problems would show up.

191
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:53,060
Right.

192
00:23:53,180 --> 00:24:00,120
Because you buy a server and that was the financial transaction.

193
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:01,060
Right.

194
00:24:01,060 --> 00:24:14,940
And it never wasn't about buying a service, then reviewing the bill from that service and ensuring that you are paying for exactly what you consumed.

195
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:15,840
Yeah.

196
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:20,980
I mean, it's even more complex or complicated than a subscription model, right?

197
00:24:20,980 --> 00:24:27,420
Where, you know, at least in a subscription model, you kind of know what you're going to pay for the year or whatever the term is.

198
00:24:27,540 --> 00:24:35,380
And then you can, you can recognize those expenses over the course of the term in a very linear fashion.

199
00:24:35,380 --> 00:24:35,820
Right.

200
00:24:36,620 --> 00:24:44,300
So that's when you get to that true pay per use utility model, then there's some extra nits in that.

201
00:24:44,740 --> 00:24:45,060
Okay.

202
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:45,500
Thank you.

203
00:24:45,540 --> 00:24:46,660
That's, that's helpful.

204
00:24:47,760 --> 00:25:02,100
You know, my last kind of big question area for you is that I really like the way you characterize a platform as having that near zero marginal cost of access, reproduction, and distribution.

205
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:23,820
It seems like most of the examples you're thinking of or that you're sort of, you know, drawing from in that are sort of like the platform players, you know, thinking of like a Fitbit or a Peloton or, you know, like a platform that is then offered directly to your service.

206
00:25:23,820 --> 00:25:27,020
Or Etsy is another, you know, Etsy is another, you know, one of my favorite examples, right?

207
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:34,060
Where they've created a platform where others can come and list something and then someone else can, can buy it.

208
00:25:34,940 --> 00:25:43,860
So, but I wanted to see what do you think happens internally within companies and is this model possible?

209
00:25:43,860 --> 00:25:54,820
I think it's a great way to think about sort of this decoupling of, you know, what the, what the cost is compared to what the benefit is.

210
00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:06,840
Do you, is that something you see like as internal IT supports developers, can they do that with this sort of model of near zero marginal cost of access, reproduction, and distribution?

211
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:09,300
Oh yeah, absolutely.

212
00:26:09,540 --> 00:26:14,840
Because the near zero refers to digital products and services.

213
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:23,800
And you can link that directly to information about your internal business processes.

214
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:35,560
The more information that you can deliver to decision makers, the better decisions they can make within your organization.

215
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:54,160
So, um, sometimes these digital products can be standalone or they can be paired with actual physical products or, or processes within your organization.

216
00:26:54,800 --> 00:27:06,780
So, contemporary business expansion goals today really need to target what you can do and what you can provide in the virtual world.

217
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:18,240
And that's not only virtual products and services to your ecosystem, but information internal to your organization.

218
00:27:19,620 --> 00:27:20,140
Okay.

219
00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:32,200
So thinking about it as, um, yeah, almost like from the data perspective, which you're really, you know, you're turning that data into information and you're getting information to more folks.

220
00:27:32,660 --> 00:27:34,260
Um, I can definitely see that too.

221
00:27:34,260 --> 00:27:34,520
Um, I can definitely see that too.

222
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:41,540
And almost the, again, to come back to that, that, um, the, the API ecosystem, right?

223
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,800
How do you expose more of your internal data just to other internal users?

224
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:47,680
Absolutely.

225
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:56,000
Through an API and whether they're building software for other internal users or they're building software that actually does go out to customers.

226
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,960
They, they, they're, they're then accessing that, that data and information via an API.

227
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:12,440
And then, then that can support many, many more, um, developers who are building more services, helping those internal decision makers or helping customers make decisions.

228
00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:13,400
Right.

229
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:24,540
The biggest value internally is the ability to link people and, uh, enable them to give them the tools to collaborate.

230
00:28:25,340 --> 00:28:36,140
Data enables better collaboration and internal APIs actually, uh, do the same thing.

231
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:46,040
Yeah, no, it's, uh, it's exciting and, um, it's been wonderful to chat with you, um, speaking today with Kevin Jackson, author of Click to Transform.

232
00:28:46,940 --> 00:28:56,000
Uh, folks, where can, other than reading the book, um, Kevin, where can folks follow you or learn more or, you know, read more of your stuff?

233
00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:05,840
Yes, I'm, uh, everywhere online at, uh, Kevin underscore Jackson on Twitter or, uh, Kevin Jackson on LinkedIn.

234
00:29:06,380 --> 00:29:10,940
Or you can actually just, uh, Google Kevin L. Jackson cloud computing.

235
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:12,000
All right.

236
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:13,960
Well, thank you so much, Kevin.

237
00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:15,040
Have a great rest of your day.

238
00:29:15,660 --> 00:29:16,640
Thank you very much.

239
00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:27,700
Thank you.