1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,900 Welcome back. It's been a bit of a hiatus on the Dormain hosted episodes of Tanzu Talk. 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:22,460 But I'm excited to have with me today Adam Furtado from Kessel Run, who I've heard speak 3 00:00:22,460 --> 00:00:28,480 many times, have caught up in hallways at conferences. And he's taken on a new role 4 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:34,160 at Kessel Run. And that's prompted a couple of questions that I have for him. So Adam, 5 00:00:34,220 --> 00:00:38,700 maybe you could introduce yourself and describe like, what is this transition you've just gone 6 00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:45,260 through? Sure. Yeah. Thanks for inviting me to chat. I'm excited about it. So my name is Adam 7 00:00:45,260 --> 00:00:50,900 Furtado. I'm a member of Kessel Run. We're a U.S. Air Force organization doing software development 8 00:00:50,900 --> 00:00:57,560 within the government. We're about three and a half years into our journey started at about 9 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:07,100 five people doing a kind of quick side project and slowly, maybe fast, quickly grew into a 1300 person 10 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:14,260 organization trying to figure out how to continuously deliver software to airmen around the world on 11 00:01:14,260 --> 00:01:21,380 multiple networks and classification systems and all that. So the kind of recent change is that 12 00:01:21,380 --> 00:01:27,060 in the last three years, I've been in various product leadership roles, leading application development 13 00:01:27,060 --> 00:01:32,400 across Kessel Run in various capacities, and I've recently moved over to lead our platform, 14 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:38,900 which is a very interesting change and new change for me and one that's been really a lot of fun, 15 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:44,540 to be quite honest. Yeah. And now just to like unpack some of the language that you're using, 16 00:01:44,540 --> 00:01:53,520 you talk about being on a product team. Uh, I think what a lot of folks might actually connect with is 17 00:01:53,520 --> 00:02:01,160 like, you mean an application or like a piece of software, right? That, that gets used. Uh, but is that 18 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:11,080 fair to say? And, and why, why do you refer to them as product teams? Sure. Yeah. So I was on the first 19 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:19,080 product team, uh, at Kessel Run and then, uh, kind of grew in my, uh, responsibility from there when we 20 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:24,860 had four, I was the first product leader and then up to, uh, a couple of dozen of them. Um, we refer 21 00:02:24,860 --> 00:02:29,220 to them as product teams. We want everything to be thought of as a, as a product. You want everything 22 00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:34,060 to be, you know, thought of as the outcome we're delivering to end users at the end of a value 23 00:02:34,060 --> 00:02:40,700 stream. Um, so using kind of product terminology allows us to, uh, ensure that we're always thinking 24 00:02:40,700 --> 00:02:45,640 about that. And that actually comes into play quite a bit in, in my new role, even in, on the platform 25 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:50,580 side, thinking about, you know, services and kind of backend tooling, uh, in the same way, which has 26 00:02:50,580 --> 00:03:01,160 been a bit of a change. Yeah. Okay. So, um, that, that transition before we get into that, thinking 27 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:08,420 about as a, as a product team lead, um, and what you've been doing for the last three years, what has 28 00:03:08,420 --> 00:03:14,100 your relationship to that platform team been and what are some of the kinds of things that 29 00:03:14,100 --> 00:03:20,220 you would have looked to them for, or, um, have wanted from that team in the past? 30 00:03:20,940 --> 00:03:27,680 Yeah, I think it's, uh, evolved, uh, over time in good ways and in bad ways. I think when we first 31 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,460 started Kessel Run, we were so small that all of us did everything right. It was very small, 32 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,440 close knit team. And we knew that we needed to kind of have all of these different things we had to do to 33 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:43,400 get software from, um, you know, being developed into users hands. So we were working hand in hand 34 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:49,740 with the folks leading the platform organizations and teams. Then as Kessel Run has grown, uh, to this 35 00:03:49,740 --> 00:03:55,420 level of over a thousand people, you just kind of like, after a couple of reorganizations, all of a 36 00:03:55,420 --> 00:04:01,760 sudden you realize that there's a bit of a bifurcation growing between, uh, application development and the 37 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:09,800 platform organization that is charged with, uh, supporting. And, uh, I think as that kind of divide grows, 38 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:17,280 the lack of empathy increases or the empathy decreases, um, and the, uh, it becomes a bit of a challenge. 39 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:23,220 So I would say that the thing that we're looking for on the application side is, uh, ensuring we have an 40 00:04:23,220 --> 00:04:29,620 understanding of the infrastructure and platform services and basically everything we need to get the product that we're 41 00:04:29,620 --> 00:04:35,320 thinking about all day long into our user's hands so we can learn from it, um, and make changes from there. 42 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,940 Um, and then the, the complexity of that, you know, has changed over time to be, to be certain. 43 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,860 Um, so now we're trying to kind of get back to the basics and simplify a bit to, uh, make it a little bit 44 00:04:45,860 --> 00:04:48,040 easier than it's kind of, uh, grown to be. 45 00:04:48,540 --> 00:04:55,080 Yeah. And that makes sense. And like putting in the context of how rapidly that organization has grown 46 00:04:55,080 --> 00:05:02,080 and how there's just that, yeah, this sort of natural distance that occurs. You can't, uh, you can't stay 47 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:07,840 in tune and in sync with that number of people, but this is a challenge that a lot of organizations, 48 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:13,000 you know, if they're not dealing with already, we'll have to, um, can you think of things that like 49 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:18,600 when you were on the product side, you had gotten to the point as maybe you were getting a little bit 50 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:24,740 more disconnected that you, you kind of thought, gosh, why hasn't the platform team solved this 51 00:05:24,740 --> 00:05:30,360 yet? Or why are we still having to do this? Has anything come to mind where you're just like, 52 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:37,820 all of it? I think, I think it's, it's everything. I think, um, you know, every conversation was that, 53 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:43,800 which I think was not, uh, which is a problem on, on both sides to, to like the place we got to is that 54 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:50,640 every time a particular capability or service wasn't available to us yet, you know, our minds went to 55 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:55,800 this place of, there are these evil people over there that only are there to like, keep us from being 56 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:02,300 successful. And like, what are we going to do to overcome this, you know, enemy at the gates? Um, and, uh, 57 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:06,780 it was, it was not good. And I, I played a part in that too. And I, you know, in, in retrospect, 58 00:06:06,780 --> 00:06:12,300 did a very poor job of bridge building as a leader in the organization. Um, to just understand that, 59 00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:18,160 you know, people are inherently good. Everybody's trying to do a good job. Um, and, uh, you know, 60 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,820 uh, taking things from that perspective and, and, and really having empathy on both sides, not just 61 00:06:22,820 --> 00:06:28,260 saying that, um, what was really important. One of the, the, the, the more kind of interesting things 62 00:06:28,260 --> 00:06:34,240 that I've learned in the last few months in taking on this role is that I've, um, you know, brought over 63 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,040 to this, you know, important idea of customer centricity, right? So I'm a product person by 64 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:43,340 trade. I care about delivering things that our customers and our users, uh, love and really want 65 00:06:43,340 --> 00:06:48,820 to use. Um, so when I came in, I had this kind of thinking that like, okay, I'm walking into an 66 00:06:48,820 --> 00:06:53,060 organization that's not customer centric. They don't care about users and customers because I just 67 00:06:53,060 --> 00:06:58,940 was one. So I know this to be a fact. Um, but I walked into a very different, uh, experience and I was 68 00:06:58,940 --> 00:07:06,000 completely wrong. And it was, it wasn't that the team didn't care about customers. It's that they 69 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,740 were trying to like solve customer problems so much that it was leading to them being a little 70 00:07:10,740 --> 00:07:16,420 bit more ineffective and inefficient than, um, we would like them to be. So as an example, 71 00:07:16,420 --> 00:07:21,860 uh, they were working kind of a scrum way of working. So they have sprint planning and they're 72 00:07:21,860 --> 00:07:24,820 working on kind of delivering against these kinds of things in their two week sprint. 73 00:07:25,140 --> 00:07:29,920 So then I, or some other customer would come screaming from the rooftops about this like 74 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,300 incredible priority that we have to get solved right away. And all of the work that they were 75 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:38,720 planning on already in the sprint gets dropped to the floor. They're responding to this fire that 76 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:44,120 we've just like created for them. And all of a sudden, uh, that gets dropped the next day for the 77 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,520 next fire, the work in progress increases, nothing gets delivered. And we just keep complaining that 78 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:53,740 nothing's getting done. But in reality, it was like, they were trying to be customer centric by 79 00:07:53,740 --> 00:07:58,900 responding to our needs the whole time. Yeah. And to be customer centric, you have to learn how to say 80 00:07:58,900 --> 00:08:04,200 no. Um, and, and saying no to customers can be the most customer centric thing you can do. Um, 81 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:09,020 and I think, uh, so I had about a bunch of bad assumptions coming into this new role that I learned 82 00:08:09,020 --> 00:08:15,580 really quickly were wrong. That's, that's a pretty powerful takeaway of like, you know, sometimes to be 83 00:08:15,580 --> 00:08:23,880 customer centric, you have to learn how to say no to your customers. Um, and that kind of tees up what 84 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:30,200 my, my next couple of questions were both, you know, what did you, what did you learn when you kind 85 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,240 of walked into the platform team? So you shared some of that. And then also, what did you bring with 86 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:41,480 you from your, uh, product team leadership experience? But let's, let's drill in a little bit 87 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:50,480 more. So you, you came into this team, um, and you were sort of, uh, the myth was debunked, 88 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,380 right? The myth that they were this evil organization that didn't care about their customers. 89 00:08:54,900 --> 00:09:01,180 Um, I like how it goes immediately from like, you know, cares about customers to evil, right? There's 90 00:09:01,180 --> 00:09:09,880 not like a spectrum, uh, of just like apathetic or something. It's like, no, they're evil makes total 91 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:15,620 sense. Um, okay. So you come in and you learn like, oh, actually they're really, really trying to, 92 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:21,820 uh, what else surprised you about the way they were working and what they were doing and some of the 93 00:09:21,820 --> 00:09:29,220 challenges that they faced? The, the thing that became really clear, very, so I, in, in the application 94 00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:34,840 development side of our organization, we've used like very strict XP and Kanban principles of actually 95 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:40,600 starting from working with Pivotal Labs early on. And, uh, the thing that I underestimated was 96 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:46,880 how great that way of working is for me, for managing your work in progress. Like it, you know, 97 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:52,240 as we, um, you know, worked in our development teams, we're pulling the next story off a backlog. 98 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:57,460 We're working it through completion and acceptance and all of that. And that just seemed very routine 99 00:09:57,460 --> 00:10:03,380 and very normal to me. Um, and then as I moved over to, uh, the platform organization, working in more of a 100 00:10:03,380 --> 00:10:11,360 scrum way of working, uh, so two weeks sprints, but all of a sudden, um, the amount of work in progress 101 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:19,380 was, uh, astonishing, uh, to be honest, and more the idea of how we did capacity planning. So I, uh, 102 00:10:19,380 --> 00:10:24,620 in order to kind of like understand the organization, I did kind of like my own version of a Gemba walk, 103 00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:29,060 uh, through the platform organization and these virtual kind of like meetings with each team to 104 00:10:29,060 --> 00:10:33,240 understand how they worked, their processes, how they took in work, how they prioritize them. 105 00:10:33,980 --> 00:10:38,180 Um, so at the beginning of these meetings, I would ask kind of an innocuous question, like 106 00:10:38,180 --> 00:10:43,120 how much unplanned work do you guys have? Like how much interruption work do you guys feel or do you 107 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:44,500 track it? Whatever. Yeah. 108 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:49,500 That would be like something like 40% or 50% or something crazy. It goes back to that early 109 00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:53,060 conversation we were having around customer centricity, constantly like reacting to fires 110 00:10:53,060 --> 00:10:57,280 and things like that. So then later in the conversation, I would ask like, okay, so think 111 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,100 about your sprint planning. Let's say, you know, what level of capacity are you planning to? Let's 112 00:11:01,100 --> 00:11:06,560 say you have a hundred hours in a work week. Like, what are you like? Oh, 90%, 95%. So we were, 113 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:12,920 we had 150% capacity on every one of our teams, basically like, oh, of course we're not delivering 114 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,500 things when we think we're going to deliver them. We have no way to do that. So, um, I think, uh, 115 00:11:17,500 --> 00:11:24,340 coming around to the realization that we just had like product management problems on the platform 116 00:11:24,340 --> 00:11:28,000 was fascinating to me because I never really thought about product management on a platform 117 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,520 before this at all. Um, so, and, and so it really got me back to thinking around like, okay, 118 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:38,360 I just realized why I like our XP principles on the app side were really good. Um, but it also got me, 119 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:43,320 you know, researching more and looking into more. And I realized, you know, uh, on the ThoughtWorks 120 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,460 tech radar this year, the number one thing listed on there was product management on platforms. 121 00:11:47,620 --> 00:11:52,280 So it's like not the, you know, not the only person coming to this conclusion. So that I think was the 122 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,660 really interesting thing to me that we didn't have a technical problem at all. It wasn't a technical 123 00:11:55,660 --> 00:12:00,660 expertise problem. It was literally a product management problem on how to manage our work more 124 00:12:00,660 --> 00:12:06,500 efficiently to increase developer productivity and flow and just get out of people's way. 125 00:12:06,500 --> 00:12:10,420 And I think, uh, and it's a whole different job than I had before. So it's been really exciting to 126 00:12:10,420 --> 00:12:17,080 be honest, to try to like flex these new muscles. So I want to pause and back up, um, a little bit 127 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:24,340 because, you know, you, you talked about like realizing that using kind of a Kanban method or Kanban 128 00:12:24,340 --> 00:12:32,180 just the vowels, they're hard, vowels are hard. It was, has been really useful. Uh, but the team was 129 00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:39,680 practicing scrum, like just for, for the uninitiated, like what's really the fundamental difference about 130 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:44,500 these two approaches? Cause they, they sometimes get kind of sloshed around in the same conversations. 131 00:12:45,060 --> 00:12:50,900 So it just, it occurs to me that like, you know, if someone thinks, well, we're doing scrum, 132 00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:56,260 like why might they, there's still be something left on the table for them to learn? 133 00:12:56,820 --> 00:13:01,780 Yeah. So I think, uh, I would give my kind of perspective on this. I'm sure they're like more, 134 00:13:01,780 --> 00:13:09,540 uh, Oh, I'm sure there's pages on the interwebs of this, but yeah, from a Kanban perspective on the, 135 00:13:09,540 --> 00:13:15,860 on the XP side, um, we would have backlogs for each team and that were managed by the product 136 00:13:15,860 --> 00:13:19,700 manager. They would be the one writing the stories and working with their teams in a balanced team 137 00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:25,300 model. Um, those backlogs really went out more than two or three weeks. So it was constantly like 138 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:31,300 re-evaluated for priority. Um, and then as we went forward, the, we're constantly prioritizing 139 00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:35,460 things and we're grabbing stories at the top of the backlog. So you're always working on the most 140 00:13:35,460 --> 00:13:42,500 valuable thing at all times. The system requires it, uh, in a lot of ways. Um, the downsides to it 141 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:50,340 that we ran into is that when we grew from like one product team to two dozen, the portfolio management 142 00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:54,420 across a bunch of teams working this way is challenging. I think there are ways to solve 143 00:13:54,420 --> 00:13:59,620 that. I'm sure, um, we could have done a better job on a lot of it, but the idea that you are kind of 144 00:13:59,620 --> 00:14:04,340 empowering product managers to work their own priority is harder to plan for it. Like the 145 00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:09,300 strategic layer, if you will, at least in my experience, we're on the scrum side of things 146 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:15,220 on our platform team. It's easier to plan because you have this sprint planning, spending an entire 147 00:14:15,220 --> 00:14:21,860 day every two weeks or whatever it is to understand the sprint plan. Um, so you can like communicate 148 00:14:21,860 --> 00:14:26,420 to your stakeholders more easily and like wrap your own head around the work that's coming because 149 00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:30,260 you're like playing a role in it and you can like see it kind of all coming together. 150 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:36,980 Um, the reality of it is though, it rarely actually happens because once you get into this kind of 151 00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:41,300 two week planning cycle, we had all this unplanned work and interruptions we talked about earlier. 152 00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:46,020 A lot of our teams are doing like operations work. So doing a two week sprint for operations work 153 00:14:46,020 --> 00:14:53,460 doesn't really make so much sense anyway. So, um, the plan that you had going into this two week work 154 00:14:53,460 --> 00:15:01,380 becomes an initially, um, uh, affected by the changes that happen rapidly in, in the world that you're in, 155 00:15:01,380 --> 00:15:06,500 in the context that you're in. Um, and it becomes a little bit in, in, in personal to me too, where, 156 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:10,260 you know, if you have a customer request or a question and you can say things like, 157 00:15:10,260 --> 00:15:14,580 I will put it in our next sprint. Um, it's like the, the equivalent of like, you know, 158 00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:20,020 I'll get back to you later to me. Um, so I, I really hate that term. Um, so I think there, 159 00:15:20,020 --> 00:15:23,860 there are pluses and minuses. It kind of depends on the nature of like the kind of problem you're, 160 00:15:23,860 --> 00:15:28,500 you're here to solve, I guess. Um, but, uh, I like the idea of being able to, you know, 161 00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:33,940 sense and respond to change as rapidly as possible. So I kind of, uh, kind of, uh, like that idea from 162 00:15:33,940 --> 00:15:39,860 the kind of Kanban way of working. Okay. Thank you. That's very helpful. Um, 163 00:15:40,980 --> 00:15:47,140 okay. So, you know, you also talked about kind of bringing the, the product management principles 164 00:15:47,140 --> 00:15:54,820 to bear on this platform team, uh, and, you know, getting out of people's way. I wrote that down as 165 00:15:54,820 --> 00:15:59,620 well. Cause I thought that was kind of an interesting way to think about how, how, 166 00:15:59,620 --> 00:16:04,420 you know, you're being successful on a, on a platform team, right? That's customer centric, 167 00:16:04,420 --> 00:16:10,740 not evil. Tell me a little bit more about what products, what kinds of things would, would end up 168 00:16:10,740 --> 00:16:19,220 getting, um, prioritized in and what kinds of things were hard to say no to when you're really 169 00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:24,500 applying those product management principles at the platform level. Yeah. I think the biggest 170 00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:33,300 difference, um, is without having like a product mindset of understanding, like why you're building 171 00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:40,340 things and how they're going to be consumed. Um, I think it's easy to get attracted to really 172 00:16:40,340 --> 00:16:47,220 fun technical challenges with a group of engineers who want to solve complicated problems. Um, where, 173 00:16:47,220 --> 00:16:51,620 you know, sometimes those things are, may not be the best solution for the problem set that you're 174 00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:59,620 like setting out to achieve. So I think in, in, uh, changing the kind of mentality around the team, 175 00:16:59,620 --> 00:17:05,380 you know, as best I can, and this isn't just me, it's a kind of group of people. Um, we're trying to 176 00:17:05,380 --> 00:17:10,580 make sure people understand like, okay, why, why is it important for you to have this level of 177 00:17:10,580 --> 00:17:15,300 observability? How is it going to be used? And like, what value is it going to bring to the organization 178 00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:20,580 at the end of the value stream where before it would be like, I have a ticket to deliver 179 00:17:20,580 --> 00:17:25,300 Prometheus. So I'm going to do it. And then I'm going to check it off when it's done. 180 00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:30,740 There were just like engineering tasks being completed without an idea of like the larger 181 00:17:30,740 --> 00:17:38,660 picture we're here for. Right. So in our case, our platform exists in order to enable our application 182 00:17:38,660 --> 00:17:44,340 teams to deliver value and create value at the end of that stream, uh, down to like our airmen who are 183 00:17:44,340 --> 00:17:51,620 deployed around the world. The abstraction between that and like the actual service teams was so great 184 00:17:51,620 --> 00:17:58,580 before that, like you couldn't even connect the dots really. Um, so I'm trying to work on, um, ensuring that 185 00:17:59,380 --> 00:18:06,740 there is a, um, uh, a connection between the work they're doing and the actual like outcome being achieved. Um, 186 00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:13,780 the second thing is on, uh, success criteria. I think in, in, in the way that we were like building our 187 00:18:13,780 --> 00:18:19,860 kind of ticket system and that we really lacked like what success looked like for completing a thing. 188 00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:24,580 It was like such like the idea here isn't just building a thing. It's what happens afterwards. 189 00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:30,580 Right. So in the same respect of like, if you're on a product team, you know, you build your story, 190 00:18:30,580 --> 00:18:34,180 have an acceptance criteria that you should also probably measure the outcome and ensure that like 191 00:18:34,180 --> 00:18:38,020 your hypothesis was right in the beginning, same thing on a platform or a service team, 192 00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:43,140 making the thing available and nobody uses it. You should probably, you know, want to know why that 193 00:18:43,140 --> 00:18:48,260 is, uh, and react to it. So I think it's more around shifting towards solving user problems towards, 194 00:18:48,260 --> 00:18:52,500 you know, pulling a ticket off a backlog and just delivering the engineering tasks and going to the 195 00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:52,980 next thing. 196 00:18:52,980 --> 00:18:59,940 Okay. I think we've kind of covered like a lot of my sort of burning questions on, 197 00:18:59,940 --> 00:19:06,020 on the sympathy for the platform team, uh, which is in my head, what I've already named this episode. 198 00:19:06,020 --> 00:19:12,500 Yeah. I guess like if we were to dig in a little bit more on that success criteria, 199 00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:18,740 what are, what are some, some wins that you've seen the team be able to have kind of pretty quickly 200 00:19:18,740 --> 00:19:23,300 and that, that tell you that this mindset shift is taking hold? 201 00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:29,140 I think it happened pretty quickly. I just started seeing the language change, um, pretty rapidly. 202 00:19:29,140 --> 00:19:33,860 And I think, you know, some of that is like new leader comes in, that's like, you know, uh, 203 00:19:33,860 --> 00:19:37,620 get off on the right foot. But I also think like, if I'm watching some of the, these conversations from 204 00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:43,860 afar, I'm starting to see more questions and more conversations with our customer community on, 205 00:19:43,860 --> 00:19:50,500 you know, what good looks like and what success looks like. Um, and, uh, so I think we're still kind of 206 00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:54,660 working towards that. I think that the place that we're in right now is really like stripping down 207 00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:58,980 the complexity and trying to simplify and communicate as, as effectively as possible. 208 00:19:58,980 --> 00:20:05,060 So I think one place that we historically struggled on our platform team is that, um, 209 00:20:06,340 --> 00:20:12,020 you know, this isn't the case everywhere, but on within Kessel Run, our product managers 210 00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:17,140 aren't all like inherently super technical. A lot of them come from the business and that kind of thing. 211 00:20:17,780 --> 00:20:22,420 So I, I, you could see conversations happening between like product management on the business 212 00:20:22,420 --> 00:20:28,500 side or the application side and like some super complex answer to an engineering thing on the 213 00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:32,580 platform side. And everybody's in the room going, yeah, I understand. But like in reality, 214 00:20:32,580 --> 00:20:35,140 nobody understands what the other one's saying. They just want to get out of this meeting. 215 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:39,860 Um, and I think it was like, uh, that's one of the things that we're trying to change by 216 00:20:39,860 --> 00:20:44,660 figuring out how can we like describe the, the inherently complex technical work we're doing 217 00:20:44,660 --> 00:20:49,300 in a way that anybody, uh, can understand. So I started calling this the Luna rule. 218 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:54,980 So we have a, this product manager at Kessel Run named Crystal Luna, and she's amazing. 219 00:20:54,980 --> 00:21:00,100 And, uh, I cleared this with her before actually talking about it, but, um, she comes from, 220 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:04,900 she was an active duty air force airman. She's a senior airman who came and worked with us, uh, 221 00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:09,380 temporarily got out of the air force and now as a product manager for us. And she is fantastic, 222 00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:13,620 but she's not technical by trade. So one of the things that we talk about internally is that, 223 00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:17,780 okay, you have this solution. You're going to go talk to do a customer engagement here and describe 224 00:21:17,780 --> 00:21:22,340 it. Like take the Luna rule into account. How can you describe this where Crystal would understand 225 00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:25,620 what you're saying? And I think those types of conversations are starting to happen more and 226 00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:30,020 more where people are like, okay, I understand this, but how can I make this communication a little 227 00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:34,820 bit more effective? Um, so, uh, our customers understand it. So that type of thing, we're starting to see, 228 00:21:34,820 --> 00:21:42,100 um, a lot more, which has been, uh, great. Um, the other place that we're really diving into 229 00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:46,740 is, is similar, but in like kind of roadmapping type of work and making our roadmaps and planning 230 00:21:46,740 --> 00:21:54,180 available to our customers. Um, the other thing that I realized in this transition was that like, 231 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:59,060 it's okay if something's not going to be available, like customers are okay with that. They just need to 232 00:21:59,060 --> 00:22:03,300 know so they can make their own decisions internally, right? Maybe you go a different direction, 233 00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:08,660 you do something kind of janky temporarily or whatever, but we, uh, traditionally had a really 234 00:22:08,660 --> 00:22:13,860 hard time understanding and articulating our roadmaps. So our customers could even respond to it. 235 00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:17,540 Um, so we're trying to do a better job of like, yeah, even if we're not going to have something 236 00:22:17,540 --> 00:22:21,780 available for you, we at least tell you that. Um, so you can kind of, so it's a lot of online, 237 00:22:21,780 --> 00:22:26,500 like basic communication, which maybe ties into that product discussion a little bit, but 238 00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:30,340 more on just like, um, yeah, effective communication across the organization. 239 00:22:31,060 --> 00:22:35,860 Yeah, that, that actually brings up another good question where, you know, you described earlier, 240 00:22:35,860 --> 00:22:43,540 how, as the organization has grown, the, the sort of the touch points have decreased, right? 241 00:22:43,540 --> 00:22:50,420 Between different product teams and the platform team. And so the sort of mental rift builds up. 242 00:22:51,380 --> 00:22:57,460 What else have you seen? Yes. You mentioned changing the way that, uh, the, the solutions 243 00:22:57,460 --> 00:23:05,220 that the platform teams are building get described to customers. You mentioned making that roadmap 244 00:23:05,780 --> 00:23:15,780 available and transparent about things that are, and aren't on the roadmap. What else have you done or 245 00:23:15,780 --> 00:23:21,540 are thinking about doing in order to build back up in a scalable way, right? Because it's, it's, 246 00:23:22,420 --> 00:23:28,500 when you're at that, Hey, we've got 1300 people now, like we can't rely on some of the things that 247 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:32,340 maybe worked really well in the beginning when we were all just working really closely together. 248 00:23:32,340 --> 00:23:36,900 We know that that's not going to work anymore. So how are we going to approach this problem differently 249 00:23:37,860 --> 00:23:44,340 of building back that, that empathy, that sympathy for the platform team? That's not just Adam, 250 00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:50,260 because you came to work on that team and lead it. Like, how do you now, instead of having everybody 251 00:23:50,260 --> 00:23:56,180 rotate through the team, um, scalably get, get everyone kind of connected back to that group 252 00:23:56,180 --> 00:24:00,340 and vice versa, that the platform team has those connection points back out. 253 00:24:01,220 --> 00:24:06,580 Yeah. So I, I mean, me having past relationships is certainly helping. We also brought a couple other 254 00:24:06,580 --> 00:24:12,020 really great product managers over with me, uh, which has been great. So it's not just like me saying 255 00:24:12,020 --> 00:24:17,300 things. There's actually like product management in the organization who are kind of like, 256 00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:20,740 here's a good way to do things. Here's the way we solve this roadmapping problem that other folks 257 00:24:20,740 --> 00:24:24,900 can see. So that's been really great. Um, a couple other things that we've, we've done that could 258 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:30,740 have been successful. We're doing monthly customer AMAs, uh, where we are kind of like, uh, every fourth 259 00:24:30,740 --> 00:24:36,180 Friday, we have an hour where any of our customers can come and pepper me and our technical leadership 260 00:24:36,180 --> 00:24:41,700 with, with questions and can ask about a ticket or ask about a roadmap, whatever you're not getting. 261 00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:46,420 Um, so we do a little bit of that. Um, we also like back in my, uh, 262 00:24:46,420 --> 00:24:52,660 application development days, uh, we started this Friday wins meeting that, uh, actually we started 263 00:24:52,660 --> 00:24:58,020 it basically right when we went remote in, in mid-March where, uh, our entire teams, a couple 264 00:24:58,020 --> 00:25:02,740 hundred people would get together at four o'clock on a Friday, go over like, you know, wins from the 265 00:25:02,740 --> 00:25:07,300 week. It could be like a feature you delivered. It could be some like, uh, business process improvement 266 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:12,020 or whatever. There's also like a fun end to it where, uh, one person a week would do a pecha 267 00:25:12,020 --> 00:25:17,140 acucha on like their life in quarantine. It's kind of a fun team building thing. So that's been going 268 00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:22,660 well on the air outside. And just the last couple of weeks, they brought, uh, they invited the platform 269 00:25:22,660 --> 00:25:28,740 team in. So now like last week we had a Friday afternoon before the weekend where the platform 270 00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:32,100 team was able to be like, here are our wins for the week. We're able to deliver this. And the thing 271 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:37,140 that was cool about it is that all of a sudden you started hearing things like we were able to deliver 272 00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:41,060 this feature on the application side because so-and-so on the platform team really stepped 273 00:25:41,060 --> 00:25:45,940 up and helped us there. And it just like, you know, it was great. So like all of a sudden you're 274 00:25:45,940 --> 00:25:49,940 seeing, oh, this is what collaboration in a healthy way it looks like. And so we're starting to already 275 00:25:49,940 --> 00:25:56,100 see that by just kind of like introducing opportunities for that. Um, I guess. Um, so that, that stuff's 276 00:25:56,100 --> 00:26:00,980 going well from a scalability perspective. I think, uh, we just kind of have to keep it up. I'm really 277 00:26:00,980 --> 00:26:06,580 nervous about being in like a honeymoon phase, uh, for this kind of change. So I'm trying to make 278 00:26:06,580 --> 00:26:11,300 sure that we are finding like sustainable ways to kind of maintain this. So like once everybody's 279 00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:15,460 done feeling good about it and we're back to like real life, uh, we have the same type of 280 00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:20,340 collaboration happening, but we'll see how that goes. Yeah. That's awesome. I do have to add what 281 00:26:20,340 --> 00:26:26,180 pet pet should. Yeah. So it's, uh, I'm probably gonna get this wrong. I have no idea if I spelled 282 00:26:26,180 --> 00:26:32,980 it right in my notes, by the way. Uh, yeah. P E C H A K U C H A. Uh, it's Japanese. I think it's 283 00:26:32,980 --> 00:26:39,700 basically you have, it's 20 slides. Uh, it has to be like a single image on each slide. It's 20 seconds 284 00:26:39,700 --> 00:26:46,180 per slide. Um, so, uh, it's kind of a fun way to ask people to do like these presentations. So like 285 00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:50,100 people will go through and talk about what they've been doing and these kind of like, uh, hobbies that 286 00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:55,940 they've built, uh, since they've been at home, um, to try to kind of, uh, you know, and the, and the 287 00:26:55,940 --> 00:27:02,820 week on a fun note before we kind of sign off for the weekend. Okay. Um, so this begs the question, 288 00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:09,060 like, I mean, we don't have slides, but like what, what fun hobbies have you picked up like at home? 289 00:27:11,140 --> 00:27:16,340 The funniest thing has been, um, the people who have been doing that, it's crazy. The hobbies 290 00:27:16,340 --> 00:27:21,140 other people have got, I feel really boring. Like we have people who have like, they're like doing 291 00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:27,300 crochet and I don't know, building stuff. Um, I don't know. I've been just kind of just trying 292 00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:31,860 to survive. I got a puppy, uh, quarantine puppy, which I thought was a good idea because we'd be 293 00:27:31,860 --> 00:27:38,980 home a lot to train it and it was a horrible idea. Um, and now I have like a separation anxiety puppy 294 00:27:38,980 --> 00:27:43,060 because we're never left the house. So that's a whole thing being outdoors as much as possible, 295 00:27:43,060 --> 00:27:51,060 I guess. Yeah. Um, no, I, I hear you. I think, I think surviving is a good hobby, like, uh, getting 296 00:27:51,060 --> 00:27:55,940 a puppy. That's definitely, that's a bold hobby to take on. Crocheting is probably somewhere in 297 00:27:55,940 --> 00:28:01,860 between, you know, just back to like, why do we need extremes survival, raising a puppy, like another 298 00:28:01,860 --> 00:28:09,620 living being, um, crocheting. I hear sourdough is really popular. A ton of sourdough and a ton of 299 00:28:09,620 --> 00:28:14,020 fancy coffee drinkers. That's basically all it is. It's a lot of people describing their coffee 300 00:28:14,020 --> 00:28:21,300 situation. Yeah. Well, so I like have basically, I haven't been having any coffee because I'm a 301 00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:27,140 espresso sort of person and we don't have an espresso machine. And this combines with my other hobby, 302 00:28:27,140 --> 00:28:31,460 which was early on, we started watching the Marie Kondo show and we were going to like, 303 00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:38,020 we just Marie Kondo the house. And part of that is I'm working my way through the tea collection, 304 00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:49,060 but I have also managed to break three teapots, um, in quarantine. So, uh, coming back to survival, 305 00:28:49,060 --> 00:28:55,220 like I'm, I'm now trying to make sure that I can have a teapot that survives, uh, you know, 306 00:28:55,220 --> 00:29:00,820 quarantine or shelter in place. I don't know what you call it anymore. Um, with me, because apparently, 307 00:29:00,820 --> 00:29:06,420 like, I just drop things in the sink and they shatter. It's all learning. You're it's build, 308 00:29:06,420 --> 00:29:12,980 measure, learn. Yeah. Everything's fractal. So yeah. Eventually it's like, I'm going to stop 309 00:29:12,980 --> 00:29:18,980 buying that teapot because it's obviously the teapot's fault. Yeah. But yeah. Well, it was a 310 00:29:18,980 --> 00:29:23,940 pleasure chatting with you. These are some great takeaways. And I love hearing about the bridge 311 00:29:23,940 --> 00:29:30,340 building between application and product teams and the platform teams. And I always love hearing 312 00:29:30,340 --> 00:29:37,460 perspectives on how platforms teams can take that product mentality. It seems to just, uh, 313 00:29:37,460 --> 00:29:43,860 again and again, come up as making a huge difference in how they approach their work in a way that's 314 00:29:43,860 --> 00:29:51,140 satisfying both to them and to their internal customers, the product teams and app developers 315 00:29:51,140 --> 00:29:56,820 that they work with. So appreciate your insights. Cool. Appreciate it. We can try it again after 316 00:29:56,820 --> 00:30:10,820 the honeymoon phase is over. We can see how it actually went. When it gets real. Yeah. That sounds like a good plan. 317 00:30:21,140 --> 00:30:51,120 Thank you.