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Well, hey, it's another Tanzu Talk episode.

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Now, this is one that I originally did in our streaming Tanzu TV, Twitch, whatever you

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want to call it area, which you should totally go check out.

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It's at twitch.tv slash VMware Tanzu.

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You can also go to Tanzu.tv to get archives of everything, including the episodes I'm doing.

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Now, this one is great.

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It's all about what business value is and kind of walking through an example of it with

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Robbie up there in the UK area.

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He's always great at going over this stuff.

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I think you'll enjoy it.

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But I had two things, one to repeat myself.

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But, you know, I actually have a pretty big backlog of episodes because I've been focusing

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on streaming them and I've just been meaning to dump them.

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I shouldn't say dump, to put them in this feed here.

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Now, I know there's a lot of video things that I enjoy just being audio podcasts so I can

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listen to.

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So that's why I'm doing it.

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But if you want to catch those live or recordings, again, you should check out the Twitch stream

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that we have.

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Just go to twitch.tv slash VMware Tanzu or what was it?

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Tanzu.tv.

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But listen, listen.

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I'm also more or less doing a daily one.

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And if you're in Europe, it's daily at 11 a.m.

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Central European time.

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So far, it's pretty fun.

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It's nice.

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I don't think I'm really going to put those in the podcast stream.

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It would clog them up too much.

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So if you're interested in that, you should just go over there and check it out at Tanzu.tv.

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Now, also, this week, starting today on September 29th through October 1st, it's VMworld.

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It's free, all online.

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There's a lot of Tanzu-related stuff.

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Some of my coworkers talking there.

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I have a little cameo in one presentation if you can find it.

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But you should check that out.

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I mean, I think you just go to VMworld.com and you can check it out online for free.

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So with that, this is a really good conversation with Robbie.

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I had a great time going through it with him.

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And I hope you enjoy.

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And hopefully I'll get a little better about putting the episodes in here instead of having a backlog.

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Bye-bye.

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Well, today, man, it was like this was a long time ago.

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You and I did one of these online executive sessions.

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Was this – and you – this is with a bunch of UK people, as I recall.

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And I was going over my usual shtick of how organizations change.

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And then you had this great actual detailed presentation with examples, sort of like going through how people think about product and how they make strategic choices.

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And I was thinking that should be a broadcast that we have.

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And now, two months later, because we both have lives and priorities.

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Because life, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think we find – in fact, I think both of us, we rescheduled because, you know, because of kids at some point.

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And, you know, it's –

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Yeah, I think mine was the return to school meltdowns.

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Yes.

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I often reference this in my own life.

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And it's the – it's like the – it's almost – what's the word?

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Like journey.

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What's like a perilous journey, a quest or a – you know, it's like the –

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it's like the quagmire in action of, like, just put your shoes on.

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Please just brush your teeth.

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Yeah, brush your teeth, put your shoes on.

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You know what?

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I think my kids are getting pretty good at putting on the shoes.

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And I think the next frontier we're going to work on is if you have dirt in your shoes, let's not dump it out onto our floor, right?

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Like this is a grand theory of parenthood and nurturing that I have called our house is not a garbage can.

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And I would just like to, you know, let's move forward with this principle and things –

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It's a good value to instill.

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It's a good value to instill on the kids, right?

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I'm not sure it's going to stick, but we'll see what happens.

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Anyways, the point being that I thought it would be great to go over some of the thinking that you had.

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And it's been a while, so always with you.

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I think your thinking is involved.

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But I thought we would start with this idea of what exactly is business value?

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And my layup to this is this is a topic that people in our field, in our area, I think, talk about a lot, right?

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Because it's sort of like the reason that you're doing software and the reason you want to get better at doing software is because you should do things that are useful.

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I always say organization instead of business to sort of pull in the nonprofit-oriented people, but whatever.

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You can say business or whatever, but you want to improve the way your organization functions.

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You want to deliver business value.

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And I feel like – I'm of two minds.

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I feel like that phrase is like a phrase very much so like digital transformation where you're just like, oh, whatever.

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But then as I wrote in the opening to one of my books, it's sort of like, on the other hand, that's a very precise phrase that means exactly something that can be used.

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And it's also sort of like, you got anything better?

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And I think business value is one of those phrases where it's like it is a piece of jargon.

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And, you know, jargon is only bad if it's not for you, right?

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Right.

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Other people's jargon.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Whereas if it's your club's or your domain's jargon, then it's like great because it's like it's a shorthand for a whole set of predetermined things.

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So, anyways, I feel like business value can be a phrase like that if you kind of describe what it is.

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And I think that's what I wanted to talk to you about is like, so, Ravi, what is business value?

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But first, before we get to that, why don't you introduce yourself briefly?

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Great.

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Well, yeah, I've been sort of practicing for this.

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So, you know, it's like a long-time listener, first-time caller.

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Thanks for having me on the show.

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You'll do great.

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So, I'm Robbie Clutton.

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I'm a senior director at VMware, and I look after our Pivotal Labs organization for Europe and kind of beyond.

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I've been with Pivotal in its kind of various incarnations for sort of eight years, and, you know, we recently joined the VMware family and, yeah, kind of helped run our consultancy business from the UK.

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Yeah.

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And back in the before times, we would see each other all the time, which was –

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Back when we traveled and, you know, you'd put 100 people in a tiny room and no one would think anything about it.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I miss going up there.

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It's really nice.

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Yeah.

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Hopefully, that'll happen sometime soon.

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We'll see.

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We'll see what happens.

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I hope so.

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I hope so.

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So, let's jump into it.

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So, when – I mean, start however you think is best, but, like, for me, it's sort of, like, help frame up, like –

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You know, I've brought you in to talk about, like, you know, this agile software development.

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We're a product management or whatever.

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And, like, how do you make sure that we're, like, on the same page of, like, the point of all of it?

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What are we cruising into here?

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Start with the tip of the pyramid, the top of the iceberg, or maybe it's the other way around.

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Maybe this is the foundation of the conversation that we have.

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How does it go?

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Yeah.

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Well, I guess, like, I mean, maybe let's try and sort of define kind of business value or maybe some of the problems

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which we're seeing in the field with our customers.

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You know, I think a lot of our – a lot of people are talking about digital transformation, right?

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And it's – like, as you said, it's, you know, it's two words which are put together, which, hey, sounds great.

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But, you know, what does it really mean?

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And I think it does mean different things to different people.

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But ultimately, I think, you know, people are trying to do more with digital assets, you know, whether that is off-the-shelf software or custom software and being able to create their own software to meet the needs for their users, their customers, and their shareholders.

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And I think what we're seeing is a number of these initiatives are being spun up.

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And there is a detachment from the people who are doing the work and the way which they're working.

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They're trying to work iteratively.

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They're trying to change and respond to user needs and research, which they're doing.

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And the people who are funding those investments, creating those initiatives, are sort of detached from sort of the realities on the ground.

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And in some ways, it's not to be unexpected, right?

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Like, someone, if you're funding it, you can't be intimately involved in a project.

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But I think there's – something is kind of missing from how to kind of link really what a, you know, a CEO or a founder or, you know, general manager or whoever that is kind of making those decisions, their goals, their priorities, and kind of trickling that down into, you know, what is someone doing, an individual or a team kind of doing,

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and how does that contribute to a larger picture?

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Yeah.

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I think we see a number of these initiatives which, you know, seem kind of rudderless, right?

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It looks exciting when you're in that bubble, you know, and I've been in these teams as well.

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It's like, hey, this feels great.

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We're being really productive, getting a lot of work done.

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But then if you kind of step outside of that bubble, you're like, well, how is this actually contributing to the business goals and the direction?

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So I think what we're trying to do is create some tools and processes to try and build a bridge between these, you know, the top level, the direction and the investment decisions and the team on the ground and get it so it's measurable.

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And you can say, hey, this team has made this change or they've done this release and here's how it contributes to, say, a larger team and a program and maybe a business unit and then the whole organization and of itself.

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Yeah.

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So how do these things kind of, you know, trickle down?

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So, you know, there's, I mean, there's lots of things you mentioned, but I think there's a little footnote that's worth kind of talking about that I think, oh, it gets talked about a lot.

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But I think in this context, like, what is the role of, like, metrics in making sure you're doing, like, good agile and product management?

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Yeah.

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And, like, I guess why I ask is, like, metrics is this weird area.

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So there's a lot of, like, I think of there being, like, I don't know what you call them, but, like, technical metrics, like, you know, velocity.

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Do people still say velocity or is that, like, out of style?

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Like, what?

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Yeah, I don't hear that so much anymore.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So you can tell it's been a long time.

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But, like, or, you know, uptime or performance or, like, you know, these kind of, like, technical things.

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But then there's this other set of metrics that are sort of, like, is anything we're doing worthwhile?

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And, like, tuning those metrics seems really difficult, right?

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Like, and it's almost the reason I'm always interested in this is the sort of advice on metric gathering.

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A lot of it comes from sort of retail examples and online, you know, of course, it's online.

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But, like, new retailing things where it's just, like, people buy more stuff, which seems, like, pretty simple, right?

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But I imagine in, especially a lot of the organizations we work with, like, it's not quite that straightforward to, like, find a metric, right?

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Like, if you're, there's, like, some militaries we work with and it's sort of, like, you know, made more profit isn't really a metric for them.

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Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, many commercial entities, right?

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So, maybe, like, not the nonprofits, maybe not the government sector.

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Like, really, there's kind of, I think there's, like, really three kind of core metrics which people are looking at, right?

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So, one is, you know, increased revenue, right?

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So, like, I want to sell more widgets, right?

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Or, you know, I want to sell different widgets or high-value widgets that cost less to make.

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I want to reduce costs, right?

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So, I want to do that at a lower cost.

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So, whether that's improving efficiencies in operations or kind of, you know, scaling things out.

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Right.

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And I want to reduce kind of risk and sort of be, you know, increased security and governance.

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But it all kind of wrapped up in, say, risk, right?

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The risk of doing business, right?

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And being compliant with any regulations.

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And those three levers, like, I think that they are big picture.

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But I think, fundamentally, most businesses will kind of say that one of their, if you look at their goals, they'll probably fall into one of those buckets.

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Right.

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So, it's sort of cost of operating, right?

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Which is…

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Yeah.

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So, it's like, give me more money.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I want to make more money.

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I want to spend less money and I want to do it, you know, safer.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And then there's that third category.

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And that's, like, the difficult, can be the difficult nebulous one.

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But it's the third category is, like, and I would also like to not blow up while doing it.

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Right.

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Right.

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Like, I want to monitor that bad things are not happening.

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Or that I'm preventing bad things.

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Or, like, whatever the bad thing is that would damage the first two, I need to keep a look on that.

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And I've kind of had a number of conversations with customers and I've kind of ventured this, right?

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And it may be one of the first meetings that we would have with a customer.

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I'm trying to define, trying to understand what their challenges are and how they measure their own success.

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I might kind of put this on a board and invite them to, you know, consider where they would put things, maybe use some post-it notes and kind of put some metrics into those buckets.

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And some of the interesting ones, we had a financial services company and they were like, we don't really care about cost, right?

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It's not about that one.

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We care about the revenue.

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But really, we care about that last one, about risk.

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And it's about kind of regulations and compliance.

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And in this case, it was a payments company.

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So it was about data loss, like, very high transaction, large volume.

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It's like we cannot lose data.

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Yeah.

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That was their key one.

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We've seen, say, you know, healthcare organizations.

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And again, like the revenue and cost, less relevant.

219
00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:09,420
But it's the third one.

220
00:14:09,420 --> 00:14:15,680
It's about kind of how do we, you know, make the patient experience work really well?

221
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:22,200
Or how do we help kind of patients treat themselves before they need to come into, say, a hospital, right?

222
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:23,500
And maybe a bit more kind of stuff.

223
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,240
So it kind of falls into that, right?

224
00:14:26,260 --> 00:14:30,880
And it's like, hey, we have an aging population and we need to make sure that we can scale to that.

225
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:37,540
So how do we make that kind of interaction smoother, quicker, and, you know, people can do a bit more self-service?

226
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,760
So maybe that's a way I can dig us back to the main topic.

227
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:51,760
Because that, like, you hit on a type of metric that I always really like, which is, let me, I don't know if this is the right phrase, but it's sort of like customer experience.

228
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:59,960
Which is another one of these phrases with digital transformation and business value that, like, is very, very jargony.

229
00:15:00,140 --> 00:15:10,580
But I think what customer experience means, I mean, it can mean just, like, you know, you can do your NPS thing, you know, copyright 2001 Bain or whatever.

230
00:15:11,580 --> 00:15:15,860
But, which is, like, I should have someone on to explain.

231
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,720
Anytime there's some sort of weird logmarythmic thing, I'm just like, don't try so hard with a metric.

232
00:15:20,980 --> 00:15:24,040
Like, if you need to explain the scoring, something's gone wrong.

233
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,160
I mean, they should just reduce NPS to sort of just, like, three to five things.

234
00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:32,260
And we don't need to worry about, like, running to a complicated, anyhow.

235
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:33,640
That's a rant for another time.

236
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:47,300
But that idea of looking at making better and more efficient the delivery of an outcome or a thing.

237
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:55,020
And, like, patient stuff is really good because it's sort of like, that's a hassle for everyone, right?

238
00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:01,000
Like, you know, to know something's wrong, schedule an appointment, go wait there, make sure the paperwork's good.

239
00:16:01,220 --> 00:16:14,440
Depending on what country you work in, like, you live in, pay for stuff, actually see the chain of people that you see for a diagnosis, figure out what the remedy is, make sure the remedy's applied, follow up, and on and on and on.

240
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:20,380
It's just like, now that I'm doing all these fingers, it's a disaster of a process, right?

241
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:26,160
And there's all sorts of things, if you look through that, that you could just improve the customer experience of.

242
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:41,900
And that seems like those are the most interesting metrics that I see that we have, one, figured out that overall process, but we've gone through and, in a good way, locally optimized everything, whatever a good version of local optimization is.

243
00:16:41,980 --> 00:16:44,100
And those are especially good metrics.

244
00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:47,200
But tell me if this transitions back well.

245
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,880
In order to even find those things, you've got to define what the business outcome you want is.

246
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:59,300
So there must be some way of discovering that that lets you find that whole sort of process and focus on a thing like that.

247
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:00,300
Yeah.

248
00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:10,420
So we've been trying sort of a number of different techniques and workshops and sort of interviews with business customers to try and define, try and extract some of this stuff.

249
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,220
Unfortunately, you know, a lot of it is sitting in people's heads.

250
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,460
You know, some of it might be in a PowerPoint deck somewhere.

251
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:25,420
But a lot of it is really kind of, you know, boots on the ground, go and talk into people, or, you know, virtually, of course, now.

252
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,840
And it's really trying to, you know, cover ground.

253
00:17:30,740 --> 00:17:45,920
And we'd look at, you know, trying to get a breadth of people which we speak to who have different roles, different responsibilities, different levels to try and kind of get an understanding about, you know, what do they think their problems are, their challenges?

254
00:17:46,140 --> 00:17:47,520
What are they, you know, trying to achieve?

255
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,220
What's stopping them from being successful?

256
00:17:49,860 --> 00:18:04,940
To try and extract some of that and synthesize what we hear into patterns and try and, you know, group those and say, hey, here's where we think your challenges are or what your company thinks the goals are or what your business leaders thinks the goals are.

257
00:18:04,940 --> 00:18:23,440
And then, you know, start to put that into a format where you can start to try and hopefully draw, you know, good lines in between, you know, what is the, you know, what is, what are you saying on the street, right, to the market versus like what, what is someone or what is a team or what is a business unit actually doing?

258
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:29,460
We're just going to positively contribute to that kind of higher level, higher order metric.

259
00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:49,180
So there's a lot of, a lot of investigating and interviewing and kind of synthesizing, you know, listening and asking more questions and kind of coming up with, I like that distinction you made of, of not in like a sinister, like, you know, Nietzschean way where you're unveiling things, but like, you know, how do things actually work?

260
00:18:49,180 --> 00:19:05,180
Like, never minding like the, um, the calm exterior, if we peel that back, what's going on to deliver all that, that, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, organizations are ecosystems in a way, right.

261
00:19:05,180 --> 00:19:18,580
They have, um, you know, you've got different actors involved, uh, and, you know, maybe some good actors, maybe some bad actors, you know, uh, different interests, different motivations, different, um, different compensation.

262
00:19:19,180 --> 00:19:35,300
Um, I think, you know, generally most of the organizations know this all, they haven't necessarily done this kind of homework and this kind of research to kind of look out and, you know, look across and pull it all together to try and figure out what that, what that is and what people really think.

263
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:39,560
And it's, it's, it's, it's kind of, it can be time consuming kind of work to do it thoroughly.

264
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:47,340
We try and, you know, to have a very kind of thin, thin surface and pull, pull some insights out, you know, put that in front of people, try and validate some of that.

265
00:19:47,420 --> 00:19:48,780
Like, Hey, you know, does this sound right?

266
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,600
Is this the direction which you want to be going in?

267
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,920
Um, and then maybe kind of do some iterations on that, but try and get to some broad consensus.

268
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:06,260
Um, you know, it's interesting work, but it's, yeah, it's really just going out and meeting people, talking to them and trying to get what's in their head onto a page.

269
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:07,080
Yeah.

270
00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:21,360
You know, I've, I've been thinking a lot recently about, and I don't mean this to be like intentionally, you know, cutesy contrarian, but like maybe in the course of life and business, like.

271
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,400
You don't, you shouldn't really be focused on changing all the time, right?

272
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:47,020
Like, like you should sort of discover, like, I mean, there's like a little, a little, uh, airport book, uh, industry and like habits and like, you know, atomic habits and forming new habits and like all this stuff, which is, it's almost like you want to improve to a static way of operating, but it's really hard to move to change.

273
00:20:47,020 --> 00:20:47,240
Right.

274
00:20:47,260 --> 00:20:49,960
It's hard to like move from one way of operating, operating to the other.

275
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,360
And, and I think, you know, I was making fun of this phrase, local optimization.

276
00:20:54,240 --> 00:21:07,460
And one of the problems that, you know, an organization has is if they're re if, if one group is really good at their part out of 50 of doing something, but they don't pay attention or coordinate with the rest of the other, would that be 49 groups?

277
00:21:07,620 --> 00:21:10,700
Then you can get in a bad situation, even though they've locally optimized.

278
00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:21,580
And, and it's almost like, on the other hand, once everyone has locally optimized and therefore you're globally optimized to some extent, it'd be nice just to like relax.

279
00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:31,200
And, and, and, and like, you know, kind of, and, and kind of like deliver the same, you know, deliver the same thing for as much as possible.

280
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:31,480
Right.

281
00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:43,000
Like, like, you know, uh, paperwork examples are always my favorite, but like, at some point it's like, like I went to go, uh, pick up my new residency card here in Amsterdam recently.

282
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:48,800
And it's like, they probably didn't change how that operates like a month ago and it was fine.

283
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:49,280
Right.

284
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,880
Like there was no problem with it.

285
00:21:50,880 --> 00:22:01,260
And so at some point, right, like the whole system kind of is like, all right, well, I guess ironically they have all sorts of COVID related stuff, but you know, you know, they're just like, we're not going to change how this is working.

286
00:22:01,260 --> 00:22:12,120
And I think, I think the issue becomes exactly what you're saying is at some point you have to like have everyone decide that they're not going to, uh, stay static where they are.

287
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:18,360
And, and I think, you know, there's another effect that comes up is people lose track of what everyone else is doing.

288
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:30,200
And so you have to have that very intentional effort to go in and like, let's remap the entire value stream or the entire thing, because like, you probably don't know what's happened and everything was cool.

289
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,320
You were doing great, but now we've got to go rediscover that and, and do that mapping.

290
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:48,140
And I think, you know, I've been thinking about that kind of like rambling line of thought because I feel like a lot of the, the, the like change management and digital transformation talk is like, you know, change or die.

291
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:57,440
Whereas like, it's just a part of the healthy way of making sure you're operating well to constantly, not constantly, but every now and then go in and like, make sure you remember what you're doing.

292
00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:58,320
Yeah.

293
00:22:58,740 --> 00:22:59,100
Yeah.

294
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:03,060
I, I, I read that, um, that atomic habits book quite recently.

295
00:23:03,060 --> 00:23:17,260
And I think one of the things which I really liked about it was this kind of the 1% concept where, you know, where the author talks about, uses a lot of kind of sporting mechanisms, but trying to, you know, everyone wants to win a race, right?

296
00:23:17,260 --> 00:23:22,960
If you're, if you're, he talks about kind of cycling team or you want to win the game or you want to win the championship, right?

297
00:23:23,180 --> 00:23:23,380
Yeah.

298
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:32,400
Everyone's got, everyone's got that same goal, but it's the process in which you, which you try and achieve that goal is, is how it's going to differentiate you from competition.

299
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:33,240
Oh yeah.

300
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:33,520
Yeah.

301
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,000
And, you know, um, the author talks about this kind of 1% improvement, right?

302
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:47,560
And it's, if we're always trying to be 1% better over time, like every day, every week, that is going to compound into significant improvements.

303
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:56,480
Um, and if we focus on our process and the system and the global system, not the local system, you know, we, we will kind of start to start to get there.

304
00:23:56,700 --> 00:24:04,440
I think what's really interesting is when, when we hear about digital transformation, people talk about, you know, wholesale changes, right?

305
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:05,800
We're going to change everything, right?

306
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,000
We're going to restructure, we're going to create new business units and some companies have been successful in that.

307
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:23,800
And some companies haven't, you know, I think we've seen, we've seen examples where companies, you know, create new, new units, um, and they are separated from the rest of the business and actually kind of creates division, right?

308
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,380
And not kind of a unity between these two, these two parts of an organization.

309
00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:29,980
It creates an unhealthy kind of relationship between the two.

310
00:24:30,620 --> 00:24:34,660
Um, and you know, in many cases they, they don't thrive, right?

311
00:24:34,660 --> 00:24:42,860
Maybe they, they'd release some things, but again, they're not really hugely beneficial to the organization, but maybe because there's that kind of tension there.

312
00:24:42,860 --> 00:24:54,480
Um, but I think if we, if we take digital transformation and apply sort of that, that kind of 1% mindset, like how can we get a little bit better, you know, today than we were yesterday and, and keep applying that mindset.

313
00:24:54,560 --> 00:25:02,480
I think hopefully and be, uh, have a retrospective mindset and always look to be improving, um, the global system and not that local system.

314
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,200
You know, I think we can, we can get to a much, much healthier place and it's going to take a long time.

315
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,820
And I think people also, they want huge change and they want to see results right now.

316
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:11,280
Yeah.

317
00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:13,400
That's really like, it takes a long time.

318
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:13,820
All right.

319
00:25:13,820 --> 00:25:18,260
And we're really talking about small daily improvements over a long, long period of time.

320
00:25:18,260 --> 00:25:19,540
Yeah, no, that's really interesting.

321
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:26,360
I've, I've been, I've been thinking through like, like a, a, a new book to write and it just called exactly that.

322
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:27,800
You said the word a lot called mindset.

323
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:43,360
And, and like, I think I wanted to like catalog mindset changes that, that like necessarily don't, that, that don't have like a logical proof to them or a bunch of like case studies that just hammer you with like, like in contrast, it's like, you know, pair programming.

324
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:49,080
You can sort of like lowercase empirically prove that pair programming can be better.

325
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:49,480
Right.

326
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,600
Uh, but I, you know, there, there's, that's a really good one to say.

327
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,720
Like one of the mindset shifts you have to make is that a 1% change is okay.

328
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,100
It doesn't have to be giant.

329
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:08,280
And in fact, like if you've ever calculated how much money you actually pay, when you get like a 5% mortgage over 30 years, it's actually a ton of money.

330
00:26:08,740 --> 00:26:13,680
And so like, yeah, and it's, it almost like sometimes more than doubles the amount of money that you pay.

331
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:20,240
And so like, even if you're doing 1%, that might seem small, but it's going to be huge, like over, over a short amount of time.

332
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:26,080
So anyways, so I keep distracting you from getting to the, this is, this is great conversation to the meat.

333
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,540
So, so we were going to, we're going to go in and discover this end to end thing right now.

334
00:26:30,660 --> 00:26:36,040
Now I know that we're going to have, first, we're going to need a big room and a box full of sticky notes and markers.

335
00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:44,980
Like what are we, what are we going to do to kind of find that big, that big chain, that big thing, the, this thing that we're describing?

336
00:26:45,860 --> 00:26:55,840
Yeah. I mean, I think, so first of all, for us to be successful, kind of going into this, we, we typically would need a sponsor within the kind of the client organization, right?

337
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:01,800
So someone who's going to be high up to say like, yes, like we are, you know, we are open to change, right?

338
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:02,760
And we don't know what that is.

339
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,000
And I'm going to open doors, right?

340
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,520
I'm going to advocate for you and I'm going to make introductions.

341
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:20,300
So generally we would kind of start with a, you know, pre-COVID times, it's like, can you give us a meeting room for three or four days, block book it out, help us schedule, say 30 people, right?

342
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,160
And we're going to do 30 minute interviews.

343
00:27:22,340 --> 00:27:25,900
So we'd say, you know, 30 people, 30 minutes, three days, right?

344
00:27:26,060 --> 00:27:34,360
It's pretty intense, but, you know, that gives us, it gives us a, you know, that first line kind of picture of what the organizations are.

345
00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:34,900
Yeah.

346
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,660
And we, we might focus on certain activities, right?

347
00:27:37,660 --> 00:27:47,660
So I think one of the, one of the real challenges, which we see our customers having, which I think we really want to be supporting our customers to get better at, is their path to production.

348
00:27:48,300 --> 00:27:52,740
It's getting software, it's not just building software, it's getting into production, right?

349
00:27:52,860 --> 00:27:53,000
Yeah.

350
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:58,440
It's, you know, I think Josh Long talks about like production is the favorite place in the world for him, right?

351
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,220
Like that's his happy place, right?

352
00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:03,480
So like, how do we help our, get our customers into production?

353
00:28:05,020 --> 00:28:07,980
So we might spend, you know, more of that time there, right?

354
00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:11,380
Like, hey, how, tell me how you go from code complete to production.

355
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:12,460
What's the process there?

356
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,660
How do you go from a concept to, you know, people writing code?

357
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,660
So we, we're talking generally about these processes, right?

358
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:22,920
Or kind of value streams.

359
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,600
And we're trying to, you know, map the, the way that value is created in the organization.

360
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:33,300
And ultimately, you know, hopefully that being production software being as where value starts to actually be realized.

361
00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:36,580
And we can kind of start to see that return on, on any investment.

362
00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:44,320
So, so you, you've identified an end point, which, which is sort of like the deliverable.

363
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:51,440
I mean, there's, there's a, there's a bunch of things there, but it's like beyond just you to be really small, small about it.

364
00:28:51,460 --> 00:28:54,960
Beyond just you, like adding a container to a registry, right?

365
00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:00,240
Like, like let's, let's ask, you know, you can always start with the five whys or whatever, right?

366
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,120
But let's, let's ask like, then what happens?

367
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:07,760
Then what happens until we finally find like, okay, now this is where the real action starts happening, right?

368
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:14,420
This is where like something is happening beyond you sort of like filing something away, but you've got to identify that, that end point.

369
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:15,380
Which I think you're right.

370
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:22,780
When it comes to software, it's sort of like you've deployed to production, which is not the end, but it's a very, it's a good start, so to speak.

371
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,520
It's a good start for finding an end.

372
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,400
I had one of my first bosses, I started my career at BT, which is telco here in the UK.

373
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,720
One of my first bosses said, you know, there's really kind of three metrics or three cycles to be interested in.

374
00:29:36,780 --> 00:29:39,040
And it's something which has stuck with me throughout my career.

375
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,160
Like the first one is concept to market.

376
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:47,080
So what's the process, what's the timeline, that cycle time from like, I've got an idea to there's something in production.

377
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,720
The second one is a lead to cash.

378
00:29:49,860 --> 00:29:51,900
Like, Hey, someone is interested in buying that widget.

379
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,100
How long does it, what's that cycle time from that widget being in their hands and cash in your, in your bank.

380
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:57,740
Yeah.

381
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,120
And that third one is trouble to repair.

382
00:30:00,420 --> 00:30:00,620
Right.

383
00:30:00,620 --> 00:30:09,920
So when there's an issue, what's the cycle time and the process from the issue being issue occurring for through to a kind of a full resolution.

384
00:30:10,260 --> 00:30:13,240
And now you could apply that to, you know, to containers, right?

385
00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:15,600
Like this container has gone down, right?

386
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,880
Or my, my logging is showing some incident, how, what's my process to, to go through it.

387
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,560
Or you could apply it to, you know, kind of high concepts, you know, you know, it was a BT.

388
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:31,300
So a lot of this was about, you know, coming to, to home, residential homes and installing phone lines and internet services.

389
00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:31,580
Right.

390
00:30:31,620 --> 00:30:36,560
So it's not a, you press a button on the website and, you know, you've got a download, right?

391
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,580
It's a physical, physical installation.

392
00:30:39,220 --> 00:30:43,140
So that, that measurement, you know, was in days and weeks, right?

393
00:30:43,140 --> 00:30:44,580
Cause you'd have to schedule those things.

394
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:51,320
But I really think that those are kind of three kind of core high level value streams, which you can kind of map, right?

395
00:30:51,580 --> 00:30:53,500
What does it take to go from idea to production?

396
00:30:53,900 --> 00:30:54,660
What does it take?

397
00:30:54,780 --> 00:31:02,940
What's that process from like, whatever that task is, whether you're selling widgets, whether you're, you know, doing, doing a tax return, you know, whether you're, you know, whatever that is.

398
00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:05,000
It's like, what's that process from start to complete?

399
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,940
And then what's a process from issue to, to resolution?

400
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:08,680
Yeah.

401
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:08,920
Yeah.

402
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:09,960
I like that last one.

403
00:31:10,020 --> 00:31:10,700
Ask these, yeah.

404
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,840
Ask these questions, you know, find out more.

405
00:31:12,860 --> 00:31:14,200
And then you could do the five whys, right?

406
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:14,540
Yeah.

407
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:15,480
And what next?

408
00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:15,860
What next?

409
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:16,260
What next?

410
00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:16,660
What next?

411
00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:17,420
Yeah.

412
00:31:17,420 --> 00:31:18,300
That last one is good.

413
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:26,060
Cause it's kind of an example of the, you know, the three types of metrics we were talking about earlier, where it's the, that third metric, like the, how do I do risk management?

414
00:31:26,060 --> 00:31:26,420
Right.

415
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:37,920
And, and, uh, you know, the, the, I don't know if it's the modern way, but, but a fun way, novel way of thinking nowadays is you want to measure how fast it takes you to fix stuff instead of how often things go wrong.

416
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,780
And so I don't know, that's, that's an interesting one.

417
00:31:39,780 --> 00:31:51,140
Okay. So, so we've kind of dug around for the path to production and, and I think, I think we've kind of like, we've gotten a room full of people and we've had them all kind of talk about, here's my part of that.

418
00:31:51,140 --> 00:31:54,900
And, and then, and then I think we like basically visualize that, right?

419
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:59,220
Like you kind of draw it out so you can see the whole path to production there.

420
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:09,480
Yeah. In an ideal world, you can, we can show that and we can show kind of really where, like how long each step, how many steps there are, how long each state,

421
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,520
each step takes the complete, and then what's the wait time, um, in between each step.

422
00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:15,060
All right.

423
00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:20,260
So this is, and then you can look at the total time and this is kind of where you start to see the local versus global optimizations.

424
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:28,560
Right. Um, I think a lot of these ideas were, um, put forward, uh, in a book called the goal, which has written, you know, I think a few decades ago.

425
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,480
And it's talking about really manufacturing, right.

426
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:39,180
And that value stream of moving, say, if you're building a car, like you're moving metal sheets, you know, through, uh, through machinery to build like a side panel.

427
00:32:39,180 --> 00:32:46,220
Right. And then that goes into a car and then the car rolls off, uh, off the line and kind of, it can be sold to, sold to someone.

428
00:32:47,420 --> 00:33:00,100
Um, you know, and if you've got one of these things, which is pressing it, you know, pressing a, uh, an aluminum sheet, um, and, you know, trying to make a side panel, uh, and then you've kind of got them stacking up and you can only do one every, every so often.

429
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:11,580
Um, but your, your, your next, your next piece or the preceding pieces is putting things out, you know, once every, you know, 10 seconds or so, you're going to get to a point where you start to create bottlenecks.

430
00:33:11,580 --> 00:33:14,180
And that, that one part, which is working really well.

431
00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:15,200
And it's like, Hey, I'm great.

432
00:33:15,260 --> 00:33:16,580
I can do one every 30 seconds.

433
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:22,980
It's kind of, it doesn't matter because the one behind you, the one in front of you can only do one every five minutes.

434
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:29,180
And you're just adding the backlog to, to this, you know, to this process and this, and this thing can't do it fast enough.

435
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:30,640
So it's kind of looking at this.

436
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:37,280
Once you kind of step back and you can look at these things holistically, then you can kind of say, stop optimizing this thing.

437
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:37,640
Right.

438
00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:41,300
And start optimizing that thing and start to try and, uh, level things out.

439
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,020
Um, I've got someone at my door and you want to go check it.

440
00:33:45,340 --> 00:33:45,700
Yeah.

441
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,860
Can we just take a, yeah, I even have, I even have a, we'll be back thing.

442
00:33:50,180 --> 00:33:50,540
All right.

443
00:33:51,860 --> 00:33:53,280
Oh, except it doesn't really work.

444
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:54,320
But that's okay.

445
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,100
How about, let's see.

446
00:33:57,340 --> 00:34:01,420
I will just talk and we'll check out that awesome looking pillow.

447
00:34:01,980 --> 00:34:03,580
See what's going on over there.

448
00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:07,720
All right.

449
00:34:07,740 --> 00:34:07,980
I'm back.

450
00:34:08,420 --> 00:34:08,780
Perfect.

451
00:34:09,460 --> 00:34:09,740
Right.

452
00:34:10,620 --> 00:34:11,920
Did you get an exciting delivery?

453
00:34:13,220 --> 00:34:15,180
Uh, probably an unexciting delivery.

454
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:15,920
Oh yes.

455
00:34:15,980 --> 00:34:17,220
Those are, that's, that's sad.

456
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:18,300
The best kind.

457
00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:18,940
The best kind.

458
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:20,040
Yeah.

459
00:34:20,220 --> 00:34:20,340
Yeah.

460
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,860
So, so that's, so that is how you start to, uh,

461
00:34:22,860 --> 00:34:25,420
discover the, uh, the local optimism.

462
00:34:25,580 --> 00:34:25,960
Yeah, no.

463
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,080
And that is, you know, from, from the world of, of, you know, gold rat and, uh, and lean

464
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,560
and stuff, that idea of wait time.

465
00:34:32,860 --> 00:34:34,440
It's a, it's like the, the hidden waste.

466
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:37,980
And, you know, I, I'm pretty sure the goal came out in like the early eighties.

467
00:34:38,020 --> 00:34:39,340
So that was like 40 years ago.

468
00:34:39,580 --> 00:34:41,300
That's like, it's still, it's still relevant.

469
00:34:41,380 --> 00:34:44,400
It's kind of, it's one of those books which I have, you know, within arm's reach wherever

470
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:44,760
I am.

471
00:34:44,940 --> 00:34:45,240
Yeah.

472
00:34:45,340 --> 00:34:45,500
Yeah.

473
00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:46,020
So, okay.

474
00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:47,800
So then what, what are we going through next?

475
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,280
What's, what's our further general journey to finding the business value and how to,

476
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,560
how to, uh, how to optimize for it?

477
00:34:56,060 --> 00:34:56,420
Yeah.

478
00:34:56,420 --> 00:35:00,140
So I think, um, you know, there's a couple of models which have come out recently, which

479
00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:01,260
are, which have been quite helpful.

480
00:35:01,260 --> 00:35:07,380
So there's a model by McKinsey called the three horizons where they talk about, um, you know,

481
00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:12,040
things which are, uh, you know, what, what are the, you know, what the money makers, what's

482
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,460
the things which you're, you're making money, you're being productive about today.

483
00:35:16,140 --> 00:35:21,380
Um, that's the kind of the, uh, you know, defend that business, optimize that business.

484
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,700
There's that second kind of horizon, they call it, which is about nurturing emerging businesses.

485
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:30,380
So it's like, Hey, we've got something, you know, it's in a market or maybe it's in one

486
00:35:30,380 --> 00:35:31,520
market, but not everywhere.

487
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,720
It's like, how do we nurture that and grow that?

488
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,880
And last one is kind of truly innovative.

489
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,500
Like, Hey, how do we create this like new, new concepts, right?

490
00:35:39,500 --> 00:35:42,780
So there might be different operating models for each of these, right?

491
00:35:42,820 --> 00:35:47,180
And different values, which can be applied and probably different governance for all these

492
00:35:47,180 --> 00:35:47,340
things.

493
00:35:47,380 --> 00:35:51,440
So we might kind of start to map some of these things into these, into these buckets.

494
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:57,580
Um, Kent Beck has got a very similar model called the three, the three X, who talks about

495
00:35:57,580 --> 00:35:59,480
the first thing about exploring, right?

496
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,900
And I'm like, I'm looking like, what, where's the next opportunity I'm expanding in the second

497
00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:04,120
one.

498
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,940
So it's like, I found something let's kind of, let's make it big.

499
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,300
And the last one of extract, right?

500
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:10,800
So I've got something that's really high value.

501
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,060
How do I, how do I make, you know, small optimizations where, you know, the volume is

502
00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:17,360
so big, it's going to have these big, big pieces.

503
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,840
And again, trying to map say applications or portfolio of, of applications within our customers

504
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,960
to try and identify where, where these things are and looking for like, you know, are there

505
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:33,000
different governance, different rules that would apply to, um, would apply to these bits,

506
00:36:33,780 --> 00:36:34,540
these applications.

507
00:36:34,540 --> 00:36:38,920
And so trying to kind of look at that, we might apply kind of what, what we developed

508
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,380
to five S model.

509
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:46,220
So looking at, you know, speed, stability, security, uh, scalability and savings.

510
00:36:46,340 --> 00:36:50,680
And again, try and bucket applications or processes against that.

511
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,120
And then try and kind of play some of that back.

512
00:36:53,220 --> 00:36:54,340
And so this is what we've learned.

513
00:36:54,460 --> 00:36:58,080
This is how we've, we've, we've synthesized what we've learned and we've put it against

514
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,760
some of these models, right?

515
00:36:59,780 --> 00:37:04,140
And then we think this is where your challenges, or this is what you've told us, right?

516
00:37:04,140 --> 00:37:06,060
This is not necessarily us making this up.

517
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:09,320
You've told us this, this is how we've mapped it to these models.

518
00:37:09,540 --> 00:37:14,060
This is where we think where you should be spending time, where your challenges are, where

519
00:37:14,060 --> 00:37:18,220
you can optimize, like, and, and where, you know, hopefully some of your, your value is

520
00:37:18,220 --> 00:37:19,440
going to come through from.

521
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:25,340
So, so let's, let's go over, uh, do you have an example we can kind of give, given that,

522
00:37:25,380 --> 00:37:27,760
like, is there an example you can kind of walk us through?

523
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:28,660
Yeah.

524
00:37:29,620 --> 00:37:34,640
So one of the, one of the models, once we've kind of broken that down, you know, probably

525
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,380
to the next level and we understand, you know, what are the outcomes of, you know, large

526
00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:44,040
pieces of work, which we, which we want to do, um, you know, we might apply,

527
00:37:44,060 --> 00:37:48,280
so we've got a framework, which we use, which is the outcomes, goals, strategies, and metrics

528
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,500
or the OSGM framework.

529
00:37:50,940 --> 00:37:52,960
Is this like, we talked about share, sharing something.

530
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,620
You want to put, put this up on, on screen?

531
00:37:54,780 --> 00:37:55,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

532
00:37:55,260 --> 00:37:55,660
Talk through it.

533
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:56,660
Let's do it.

534
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:57,600
All right.

535
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:58,400
I think it'll work.

536
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,300
I'm going to click on transition.

537
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:06,020
Now everyone will see your, your big head, uh, you know, a big version of your head, not

538
00:38:06,020 --> 00:38:06,780
your big head.

539
00:38:06,940 --> 00:38:08,460
And then once you share your screen.

540
00:38:08,580 --> 00:38:08,860
That's fine.

541
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:11,240
Right.

542
00:38:13,100 --> 00:38:15,700
Wait, why are big heads like a pejorative term?

543
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:18,000
It's okay to have a big head, isn't it?

544
00:38:18,140 --> 00:38:19,100
Like, I don't know.

545
00:38:19,100 --> 00:38:19,800
Big head, big brain.

546
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:20,320
I don't know.

547
00:38:22,820 --> 00:38:23,140
Fair enough.

548
00:38:23,140 --> 00:38:25,520
Hopefully, hopefully there's nothing just rattling up, up there.

549
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:27,320
Can you see, can you see that?

550
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:27,940
All right.

551
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:28,180
So.

552
00:38:30,020 --> 00:38:30,500
All right.

553
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:31,000
Next slide.

554
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:31,240
Okay.

555
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:36,600
So we might try and break some of these things down into, uh, into this, this framework,

556
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:36,900
right?

557
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,360
So we might take something and say, Hey, what's the outcome?

558
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:40,640
What's the vision that you want to achieve?

559
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:40,800
Right.

560
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,000
It's very high level vision.

561
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:48,280
Um, we might break that down into like, how do we articulate the new numerical aspects

562
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:48,620
of that?

563
00:38:48,660 --> 00:38:49,360
What are the goals?

564
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,480
You know, we'd look into going back to that conversation we had earlier, right?

565
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,480
More revenue, less cost, you know, safer, safer way of doing business.

566
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:56,860
Yeah.

567
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:03,980
Um, and then we might devise a number of strategies, which we think are things, uh, initiatives

568
00:39:03,980 --> 00:39:05,840
or features, right?

569
00:39:05,860 --> 00:39:11,980
Or projects, which we think are going to make a numerical difference to the goal in, in service

570
00:39:11,980 --> 00:39:12,700
of this outcome.

571
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:13,920
Right.

572
00:39:14,020 --> 00:39:18,360
And then what are those metrics, which we're going to measure to make, to see if that strategy

573
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:19,180
is being successful.

574
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:21,760
So we can walk through, we can walk through an example.

575
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:23,120
So this is kind of a retail example.

576
00:39:23,220 --> 00:39:26,460
I know like maybe these are less relevant.

577
00:39:26,460 --> 00:39:29,540
Now we're kind of not going to the store, but, um, or as much.

578
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,080
It's still fine.

579
00:39:31,540 --> 00:39:32,160
It's still fine.

580
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:32,740
It still applies.

581
00:39:32,820 --> 00:39:34,760
We all remember going to what the shops used to be like.

582
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:35,100
Right.

583
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,740
Um, so, you know, here we might say, you know, we want to deliver a best in market customer

584
00:39:39,740 --> 00:39:41,660
experience to grow revenue market share.

585
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:41,900
Right.

586
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,680
And we want to grow by, uh, by numerical amount by certain year.

587
00:39:45,940 --> 00:39:48,440
And we want to make it faster and easier to shop with us.

588
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:48,660
Right.

589
00:39:48,660 --> 00:39:51,320
And the metric is going to be, you know, how much people are spending in stores.

590
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:52,440
Right.

591
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,920
We can kind of start to break these down as a very high level goal.

592
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:56,720
It's a big number.

593
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:56,960
Right.

594
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,480
How can, how can I, or how can a team make meaningful progress on that?

595
00:40:01,740 --> 00:40:01,900
Right.

596
00:40:02,180 --> 00:40:02,780
It's difficult.

597
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,100
Let's kind of break this down.

598
00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:08,620
So what we're going to do is take a strategy and turn it into a next level of an outcome.

599
00:40:08,740 --> 00:40:08,980
Right.

600
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,700
So maybe we've got, maybe that's our corporate goal.

601
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:10,940
Right.

602
00:40:10,980 --> 00:40:12,160
Maybe that's what we tell the street.

603
00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:14,020
And then we might have business goal.

604
00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:14,480
Right.

605
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,560
So we want to see improvement in, in sales.

606
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:21,200
And we're going to, our strategies here are frictionless shopping experiences, um, where

607
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,380
we want to see the metric about the time in store.

608
00:40:23,380 --> 00:40:26,820
And this is going to probably be a metric, which might be a bit unusual.

609
00:40:26,820 --> 00:40:28,820
We want people to spend less time in store.

610
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:29,400
Right.

611
00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:29,580
Right.

612
00:40:29,580 --> 00:40:30,860
Because we want, because they have a goal.

613
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:31,700
They want to buy something.

614
00:40:31,780 --> 00:40:34,980
They want to go in, get the thing, give their cash and get out.

615
00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:35,260
Right.

616
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,180
Um, and improve, uh, associate interactions.

617
00:40:38,180 --> 00:40:38,380
Right.

618
00:40:38,380 --> 00:40:42,160
So making sure that when they're talking to one of the store staff, you know, it's a very

619
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,420
positive, smooth trans, uh, transaction and interaction.

620
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,260
And then we're going to break those strategies into, into two.

621
00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:49,100
Right.

622
00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:52,680
So we, we might have here like reduce the average time in store by 10 minutes.

623
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,140
And here we've got some strategies like, Hey, we might want to improve our buy online pickup

624
00:40:57,140 --> 00:40:57,680
in store.

625
00:40:57,940 --> 00:40:59,780
Actually, that's kind of pretty relevant right now.

626
00:40:59,780 --> 00:41:00,060
Right.

627
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:03,880
Um, faster, faster payment and, and speedy returns.

628
00:41:04,580 --> 00:41:04,980
Right.

629
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,520
Obviously from a business, maybe you don't want the returns, but you want that customer experience

630
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,860
to be positive so that returning is an easy experience.

631
00:41:11,180 --> 00:41:13,500
So they'll kind of come back and buy it by the next time.

632
00:41:13,940 --> 00:41:18,780
Um, and then equally on this kind of other strategy, kind of looking at, you know, customer

633
00:41:18,780 --> 00:41:21,760
satisfaction with, uh, associate interactions.

634
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,020
So maybe looking at, you know, tooling that those associates have, right.

635
00:41:26,020 --> 00:41:29,980
Or personalized recommendations, which we can, which we can teach to that, you know, thinking

636
00:41:29,980 --> 00:41:35,160
in this example, the retailer, you know, hired a lot of, um, you know, summer kind of casual

637
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,000
workers, students and so forth.

638
00:41:37,060 --> 00:41:37,180
Right.

639
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,020
So they wouldn't necessarily have in-depth product knowledge.

640
00:41:40,420 --> 00:41:43,080
So how can we, and they're hired for a couple of months.

641
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:43,300
Right.

642
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:45,180
And then they go back to, back to school.

643
00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:50,880
So how can we kind of give them tooling so that they can, you know, have smoother interactions,

644
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,100
even if they don't have that depth of, depth of knowledge.

645
00:41:53,660 --> 00:41:57,720
So kind of starting to kind of break these things down into, you know, more actionable

646
00:41:57,720 --> 00:41:58,860
pieces of work.

647
00:41:59,020 --> 00:41:59,380
Right.

648
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:04,360
And then we can start to see if we do this, this is our leading indicator against this

649
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,740
goal and its outcome and how it kind of cascades, uh, cascades up.

650
00:42:08,220 --> 00:42:08,580
Yeah.

651
00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:08,860
Yeah.

652
00:42:08,860 --> 00:42:09,720
That's a good example.

653
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:11,820
Like it, it, it, it shows that.

654
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,560
You know, it, it shows, it shows even from a high level, like we would like to make more

655
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:16,780
money.

656
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:17,920
How are we going to make more money?

657
00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:18,460
Right.

658
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,620
And, and then it goes all the way down.

659
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:26,040
And, uh, I, I think, I think it would allow like individuals working on things, definitely

660
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,760
a team to kind of like know why they're doing stuff.

661
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,980
So, so one, that's good for morale, but also it allows them to like focus decisions that

662
00:42:33,980 --> 00:42:35,520
they make and prioritize things.

663
00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:36,560
And yeah, absolutely.

664
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,360
If, if you could say, you know, if you're working on this one of the far left, right,

665
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,660
the improve the buy online, pick up in store when you're doing, working on that, whether

666
00:42:43,660 --> 00:42:48,300
that's code, whether it's user research, you can see that, you know, our goal is to reduce

667
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:49,160
the time in store.

668
00:42:49,580 --> 00:42:49,940
Right.

669
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,420
And that is, um, you know, we want more sales because people are going to have like, they

670
00:42:54,420 --> 00:42:55,000
want to buy that.

671
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,540
I want to go and pick it up and get home.

672
00:42:56,540 --> 00:42:56,720
Right.

673
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,300
Buy my thing and bring it home.

674
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:59,160
I don't want to mess about.

675
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:05,160
Um, so they can see how, you know, what they're working on has a very meaningful impact to

676
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,060
a bigger goal and a big goal in a, and ultimately, you know, the top level goal.

677
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:09,700
Yeah.

678
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:10,100
Yeah.

679
00:43:10,100 --> 00:43:15,900
And also like, I mean, tell me if this is true, but it seems like it's pretty, well, I

680
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:23,520
don't know, pretty easy, but it's, it's definitely possible to like measure your, your hypothesize

681
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,900
your theories about each of these metrics, right?

682
00:43:25,900 --> 00:43:29,980
Like you, you can, you can kind of constantly tune these and see if it actually makes sense.

683
00:43:29,980 --> 00:43:33,360
Like the, the, the somewhat counterintuitive one you were pointing out.

684
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:38,100
I mean, the whole basis of this is that the, the faster people can get what they want in

685
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:42,280
a store, the, the more, yeah, yeah.

686
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,300
The more, the, the, basically the more money we'll make, which is probably because they'll

687
00:43:46,300 --> 00:43:47,780
return, return more frequently.

688
00:43:47,780 --> 00:43:50,220
They'll have better customer satisfaction.

689
00:43:50,220 --> 00:43:54,180
Like, you know, it won't be a hassle so that they'll, they'll have more loyalty to

690
00:43:54,180 --> 00:43:58,320
getting stuff like, you know, when I'm, uh, when I'm over here instead of going somewhere

691
00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:58,580
else.

692
00:43:58,740 --> 00:43:58,980
Yeah.

693
00:43:59,060 --> 00:43:59,260
Yeah.

694
00:43:59,260 --> 00:44:04,320
Like when I'm over at, uh, whenever, uh, you know, when I've been in London, like I'll

695
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,860
be at King's cross and there's a, there's like a boots there.

696
00:44:06,860 --> 00:44:10,940
And like, if I have some problem, you know, if I need some shaving cream, I'll go there.

697
00:44:10,940 --> 00:44:12,160
Cause I know I can get it really quick.

698
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,980
Cause it has, I do this, I do this at the local Albert Hein grocery store.

699
00:44:15,980 --> 00:44:19,840
Like one of the main reasons I go to that grocery store above all the other ones is they

700
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:25,300
have self-service checkout and it's just like so much nicer than like going through

701
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:31,580
a, uh, you know, I guess it's kind of sad, putting it all on the belt, talking to a human

702
00:44:31,580 --> 00:44:32,060
being.

703
00:44:32,260 --> 00:44:32,600
Yeah.

704
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:32,960
Yeah.

705
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,420
It's so, and, and you can also like put stuff in the bag while you're shopping and then you

706
00:44:37,420 --> 00:44:38,320
just like are done.

707
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:44,960
Like there's no anyways, but like, you know, it's, it's nice that you can kind of like make

708
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,260
those metrics clear and then also constantly, uh, be rechecking, rechecking them.

709
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:49,860
Yeah.

710
00:44:50,340 --> 00:44:50,540
Yeah.

711
00:44:50,540 --> 00:44:55,000
And we might get to the point here where we're, now we're working at a product level.

712
00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:59,940
We might show improvement or we might show that, you know, we're not getting the improvement

713
00:44:59,940 --> 00:45:00,540
that we want.

714
00:45:01,020 --> 00:45:06,780
And then the kind of the next level, um, is going to be, well, how do we, how do we feed

715
00:45:06,780 --> 00:45:13,180
back the, those metrics, those improvements kind of up the chain so that we can make investment

716
00:45:13,180 --> 00:45:17,320
decisions about whether to continue further investing in, in that product, right.

717
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,640
In that portfolio or, or not.

718
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,760
And I think there's a fear about stopping, right.

719
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,320
And I think we kind of, if we can make it easier just through very clear and transparent

720
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:33,140
metrics and these kinds of cascading goals, if we can make it easier to make, you know,

721
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:38,520
know and stop, you know, an easy decision, a good decision, um, I think we're going to get

722
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:39,100
somewhere as well.

723
00:45:39,100 --> 00:45:39,260
Right.

724
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,100
So if we get one of these products and say, we're not having, you know, we could spend millions

725
00:45:43,100 --> 00:45:43,720
on this thing.

726
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,420
It's not driving the metrics that we want.

727
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,000
Let's spend those millions somewhere else.

728
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:47,560
Yeah.

729
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:48,260
All right.

730
00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:52,480
Well, if you unshare, we can wrap up here and we'll go back to two heads.

731
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,100
Your regular size head made big.

732
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:56,540
Regular head.

733
00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:03,080
Well, yeah, that's a good, that's, that's a good kind of, uh, traipse down to, you know,

734
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:08,220
I like, I, I'm glad you shared that chart at the end cause it shows a good, it explains

735
00:46:08,220 --> 00:46:10,040
everything we were saying coming up there.

736
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:10,340
Right.

737
00:46:10,340 --> 00:46:15,080
And, and I think, yeah, hopefully you can kind of start seeing it, you know, come together.

738
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:15,560
Yeah.

739
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:15,900
Yeah.

740
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:16,600
Well, well, good.

741
00:46:16,660 --> 00:46:21,220
We'll have to, uh, we'll have to figure out a time and you can come back on and show us

742
00:46:21,220 --> 00:46:22,400
what happens after that.

743
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:22,760
Yeah.

744
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:23,440
I would love to, yeah.

745
00:46:23,700 --> 00:46:25,020
What, what, how we do things.

746
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:25,540
It'd be nice.

747
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,440
It'd also be fun to talk through just some of the, uh, like I referenced pair programming

748
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,500
earlier, but we can go on the exact opposite end and just talk about, uh, lower level, uh,

749
00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:34,780
tasks.

750
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,440
Lower level in that they're lower down the chart.

751
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,420
Not, not that they're, uh, that's where the, that's where the real work happens.

752
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:42,100
Exactly.

753
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:42,800
Exactly.

754
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:43,540
All right.

755
00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:45,520
Well, well, uh, thanks for being on.

756
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,940
Do you have any, uh, any, any Twitter places or things you want to refer people to?

757
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,380
Uh, so I'm, I'm on Twitter.

758
00:46:52,660 --> 00:46:55,900
Um, so it's Robbie with a one, so R O B B one E.

759
00:46:56,380 --> 00:47:00,080
Um, that's probably where I'm, where I am the most, um, but not that frequently.

760
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:00,740
All right.

761
00:47:00,740 --> 00:47:01,600
Well, that sounds good.

762
00:47:01,860 --> 00:47:03,780
Well, uh, we'll talk to everyone later.

763
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:04,400
Bye bye.

764
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:05,140
Thanks very much.