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Well, hey, everybody. This is another dual episode of Tanzu Talk. Rick and I recorded this live

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streaming on the Tanzu TV. You can go check that out if you go to Tanzu.tv. It's all sorts of great

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shows we have there from programming to operations to this one. There's an upcoming one that's all

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about architecture and design of software and things like that that I'm looking forward to,

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sort of an interview format. And if you're watching this in video form, you should also

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subscribe to the podcast, which has all sorts of podcasting interviews we've been doing for years

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on Tanzu Talk. So anyhow, in this conversation, you know, Rick and I talked for quite some time,

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and I wanted to edit it down to just highlight one bit. If you had wanted to see the full thing,

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you could have tuned in live to see all the stuff that I took out. I mean, it was fine. I just thought

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I would focus at some. But anyways, we had been talking about something that Rick has been seeing

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with large organizations he talks with. There's, of course, lots of people who are interested in

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getting Kubernetes up and running and are kind of trying to fit that into their overall idea of

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improving the way that they do software. And he's been noticing, as have I, that there are many sort

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of perspectives and theories about what Kubernetes is and why you would be using it. So one of the

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things I've been thinking about recently is that there's this very implied enterprise architecture

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architecture that's in Kubernetes based on the constraints that it puts on you and the way

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that you need to organize your applications. Well, I mean, I'll get into it when I jump into it.

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But you can see where we pick up in the conversation is I kind of lay out this idea that there's an

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enterprise architecture and then we go from there. So enjoy.

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Yeah. And, you know, to start to pull apart a perspective of this platform that you're building,

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of Kubernetes that you're standing up. I was watching, you know, a couple of weeks ago,

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we had SpringOne platform and there's a, there's a good, I think kind of a good 27 minute tour

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of, of Tanzu Kubernetes and all the ancillary things around it, the portfolio that Tiffany on my team

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did. And it's really, it's fun to watch it because she kind of starts off from here is,

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here's kind of like a dashboard, a visual of what everything looks like.

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Here's how you manage multiple cross clusters. And here are some of the other things that you'll

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need to be able to do, like, uh, have configuration and policy backing up things like all these,

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I keep saying ancillary, but all these supporting things, uh, that you layer on top of it.

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And then she even manages, uh, well not manages, but she manages to fit in, uh, deploying like the

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spring pet shop. Right. So, and kind of showing some of the basics of like, if you have an

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application, here's how you kind of break it up and deploy it and you can see it running, uh, you know,

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across whatever infrastructure that you have. And then also here's an example of like using, um,

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we call it, uh, observability now, but it's wave front and how you can kind of trace a request that

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goes through, uh, your application and how that surface is up there. And I think, you know, early on,

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when, when, when I was learning about Kubernetes, at least I sort of assumed that a lot of everything

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that I went over was like what it was. And I remember, I remember last year, I spent a lot of

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time to actually, uh, learn and look things up. And, and just recently, like the conclusion that I've

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come to, uh, is, and, and you kind of hinted at this, but is that essentially I struggle with what's,

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how to describe it, but it's sort of like a standard set of interfaces and practices that are codified

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in what we used to call APIs. I don't know what all the still APIs. Yeah. What, what all the cloud

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native people mean when they say API is confusing to old programmer me, but I, I think what it means is

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like a standard set of data formatting and steps that are taken. And then also what I would call an API,

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just like, here's some methods that you call on a thing, right? Like here's some operations that you

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call, but they sort of mean the combination. So you got two separate things, right? So I think you've

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hit on the, this is the real value of Kubernetes. It's what people miss, right? Yeah. The value of

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Kubernetes is that the industry and the world is coalescing on an interface for, uh, deploying

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and managing infrastructure, right? Those that, that matters a lot more. If you look at containers,

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um, what Kubernetes does with containers, that's not actually that interesting. Yeah. You're small

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evolutionary steps from a PC on your desk, right? It's, it, it is marginally more efficient than

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virtual machines. Right. It is on its own. That part of the technology isn't exciting. What's exciting

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is that we shouldn't have to care about this stuff anymore, right? We should have this default API,

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this interface into these things. That's, that's the important part. You know, that, that's the thing

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that, that, that matters to me. And I think that's what a lot of people miss. People think that

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Kubernetes is, is somehow this, uh, miraculous thing. And it, it, it's, it's, it's not,

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it's that it's becoming a standard. That to me is the big thing. I mean, that's what actually adds the

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value that there's a standard and, and what's underneath that standard, what's underneath that

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interface can change. You know, I'm, I, you, you have a long history in OpenStack and I, and I'm

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curious, like, like that was the goal of OpenStack as well, right? Like how would you have, I was

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thinking about that this morning. So yeah, the, the, that was the goal of, of OpenStack initially. I think,

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you know, some serious strategic mistakes made that not happen. In fact, in 2011, I actually, um,

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was pitching at OpenStack at the, the third summit, a project called Donabe, which was container

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orchestration in 2011 that no one got behind. Same, same basic thing. Um, so yeah, there, there's,

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that was, that was the goal. Um, and it'd, it'd be interesting that that's a whole nother topic.

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Why that seemed to, why that missed the mark.

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Yeah. Yeah. But was it, was it a similar goal that, that people were following? Like, I think

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it's instructive both on the, for the community that, that, that like is creating Kubernetes,

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but also for the people who are trying to use it. Um, because I mean, the way we opened is like kind

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of a build buy versus decision, right? Like what, what do you want to build on your own versus buy it?

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And, you know, in the OpenStack days, um, it seemed like there was a lot of building,

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right? Like, like, and I was never sure if that was encouraged or not encouraged. I mean,

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I guess there were a lot of vendors selling distros, but I remember there was one story,

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I forget who it was, but there was this, this infamous story in the OpenStack world of one,

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one big company that had built their own and they quickly like fell behind on, uh, on getting the

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new versions of OpenStack. That probably comes up quite a bit, but it was, uh, retold over and over

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again. And it seems like, it seems like the same lessons would apply between the two.

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Absolutely. And even, you know, even if Kubernetes is done better, right? Even if it's more,

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it's, it's integrated better and it, it upgrades more easily. Um, it, it's still, it's still,

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once you start integrating with other things, once you start integrating it with your stuff,

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you know, you've got a problem. You've got a problem where the, if the API start to change,

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you, you can't update and you get stuck. And that's, that's, that's the same problem. And that's,

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that to me is one of the biggest risks of, of, of DIY of building your own. I mean, it's,

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it's really, to me, it's no different than a Linux distribution. You know, you, you, you wouldn't,

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you wouldn't build your own Linux distribution. And I have experience with that. I, I, I, um,

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led the team that created Ubuntu server and it's not easy. Um, but I saw, I've actually seen

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companies think that they should build their own. And I've seen, especially startups think they should

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build their own Linux and think that there was value in that. And they, they all failed and they all

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were wrong. Um, they all ended up with, with problems. They, they didn't keep their main thing,

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their main thing. And, um, and I, I think that's one of the biggest risks with Kubernetes is you end up

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being an IT shop that does nothing but care and feeding of Kubernetes and other things that actually

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move your service, your, your customers, the business, those don't get done.

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And back to the disconnect we always talk about.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, way up there is, uh, your, your customers wanting to do things

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with your software and then way down below is, uh, configuring YAML files, like is, is, uh,

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what things about to break it into two chunks of, of things we've talked about in the past. The first

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chunk is, uh, something, you know, we'll skip over the first chunk, which is like, you're, you're not,

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you're choosing to spend your time on plumbing basically. Right. We can return to that. But

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the second thing that I'm always intrigued with, and my dog is getting very excited about it is,

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is all of the things that need to be added. Right. Like, I think, I think you kind of alluded to this,

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like integrating with your systems and your policy and, and kind of crafting those things.

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And like, there's even, even more than that. I mean, so the thing that people miss and something

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that I think that, I mean, this is one of, to me, this is the biggest, one of the biggest advantages

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of Tonsu that VMware offers. Um, you have to build containers, building containers and managing

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containers is probably the most complicated part. Once you get stuff set up that, you know, anyone can

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read a guide and set up Kubernetes. But if you can't build and manage containers, well, you're

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going to end up with a giant cesspool of a mess and the Tonsu build service, which, you

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know, is the descendant of, um, of the build service and PCF. It does that beautifully and,

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and lets you, lets you make sure that you have upgradable applications, not just an upgradable,

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manageable Kubernetes infrastructure, but the, the applications on top of it. That's really,

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really important.

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Right. And so, so that's like the first major thing is the, uh, what would you call it?

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The, uh, front loading, right? Like, like, and, and, and describe, like, describe what that process is,

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right? Like, so I'm a developer here writing code and I'm done writing the code. Like, then what,

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how do, how do I get my feature, uh, running on the platform? Like what, what, what's all the stuff

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that goes through that?

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Well, you know, so, so that's, that's interesting. So if you do this from the,

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in my mind, what, what I think should be and what most companies are doing are not the same thing.

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Yeah.

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So, um, I think that you should, you know, you should have a developer, they should write a spring app,

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they should commit it. They should do a get pull request. And that is their interface into the

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system. If they have to know they're using Kubernetes, they have to know the environment. You've sort of

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already failed. Everything should be CICD driven, getting something from the developer's laptop

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to, to production. And what I see more often, and this comes from sort of the fallacy that

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developers want Kubernetes and that some of them might, but they shouldn't.

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Right. It's like saying it, drivers want asphalt roads. You know, I don't really care what my

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road's made of. I just care where I'm going and they should care where they're going.

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And the whole goal of this, the whole goal of all of this, right, is to accelerate your

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development and to remove barriers, to remove things that are not important, things that they

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shouldn't have to care about. If they're writing something that tokenizes someone's identity,

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you know, to, to anonymize them for, for an app, they shouldn't have to think about, uh,

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Kubernetes. They shouldn't have to think about the environment. They should just write that

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business line. There is another thing that I kind of disagree with, which is the full stack

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developer. Um, they're, they're wanting people to be full stack developers. I'm going to build the

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OS. I'm going to build all the different parts. I have to know everything. And I don't think that's

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efficient. I don't think that's the way that you quickly get something from, I, from ideation to

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production. I think that, that you have to have all that stuff done in the background. You have to

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have automation that handles that. And there's a lot of complexity underneath having that kind

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of automation. And that's what Kubernetes provides. If you do it right and you use the right

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distribution, like something like, like times, it provides all of that for you.

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The issue over the years that you encounter with like, uh, a full stack developer is, is what you've

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already alluded to is, is just how you prioritize your time, like, like your resources of time and

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attention and all of that. And, you know, I, I don't really know the generalized case, but it seems like,

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you know, spending time on your platform is often not worth it. Like building your own platform,

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right. And doing your own configuring. Now, I think, you know, I, I think the idea of a full stack

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developer like came about in maybe the late 2000s, the early 2010s when there were no other options,

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right? Like, like if you wanted to do things at web scale, you had to like build a bunch of your

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own stuff, right? Like you had to figure out how things fit together and build it out. And so there

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was probably some validity back then, but to the, you know, there wasn't more of a standard way of doing

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all of this and an understanding of how to package things up and make sure that it's manageable.

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And so, you know, there's still kind of this lingering idea that you need to be a full stack

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person to like be a great developer or to do any development at all. Whereas I think nowadays,

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there's plenty of, uh, there's lots of understanding and tools and platforms like things like Kubernetes

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kind of filled out that will, uh, do those things for you. Right. So you don't really need to have

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that huge skillset of, of doing everything. Well, and you know, not needing to have it. That's one

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thing. Most people don't have it. That's the, the, if you think you're going to hire a bunch of people

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that, that know the stack from top to bottom that can replace a sys admin for you, they can replace

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all of those different, uh, knowledge sets that people have. I, I mean, unless you're a startup,

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a very small startup, I don't think that makes sense at all. I've, I've, that's never made sense

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to me. I mean, the, I came up through operations through system administration. I was an infrastructure

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guy. Right. And, um, I can't imagine the developers being able to do, do their jobs without me providing

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that infrastructure and that base for them. And really, I don't think that that's really changed.

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I think that's what the platform team should be doing. They should be, they should be supporting

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with, with the way they deploy Kubernetes, with their automation, they should be supporting

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developers so that they can not have to think about other things, write your business logic,

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man. You shouldn't have to think about anything else.

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So, so I think, I think like in the delivering on, I think, I think if we were to take, if

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we were to take like an infrastructure person's idea of who their customer is, right. And in

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our conversation, it's developers, right? So they want to provide value to their customers

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and sure, ultimately you want to do it for your organization, but that's kind of the most

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immediate customer that you have to deliver to. Uh, so you've identified one thing that's

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part of, of all of this, just the, you know, the build path, right? Like, like putting,

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putting your pipeline in place and making sure you can do that. Another, another thing that,

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uh, that, that you mentioned, or that, that I forget if it was when we've talked before

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or when we're talking now, but as this idea of like how you enforce governance and policy

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and how, how that gets added in versus kind of being more open and free floating. And I

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feel, I feel like with my limited technical understanding of Kubernetes, there are ways of

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enforcing policy built into it, APIs, if you will, but to a certain extent, how you implement

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those and how you kind of do it at a, at a large scale or sort of left up as an exercise

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to the reader. There's a lot of choices of, of how to enforce those things. The other area

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of, you know, it's interesting and kind of just thinking out loud about this, all of a sudden

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you're getting like enterprise architecture involved to, to specify, like, here's the types of

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applications that we want to be running. Here's like the policies that they need to follow. And

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here's how we enforce those policies, right? You can use this framework, you can use that API,

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but you shouldn't use this one. And you've got to follow this stance so forth and so on.

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And, you know, getting back to the idea of how you're spending your time building out this

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platform, that seems like a lot of time that you need to spend deciding on all those things.

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And I, and I think, so that architecture being, uh, like basically distributed application,

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right? Where, where you, you've broken up your application into smaller components that coordinate

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with each other over a network. And, you know, they need a registry to look things up and do service

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discovery and all of this kind of stuff. That's, uh, that's all very exciting. Um, and I think by

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nature of having to put things in containers and then also having this very constrained, um,

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I don't know, connection policy, the way that various, uh, containers in nodes and pods can talk with each

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other in, in Kubernetes, it really has this like limiting effect on how you can architect your

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application. And more importantly, if you want your application to be, uh, like manageable in

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production and to be able to do all sorts of things like, you know, uh, all, all the great things like

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rolling upgrades and kind of separating out to get all the benefits, you really have to like separate

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things out and put a lot of thought into how you're architecting it. And it feels like the way,

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uh, that Kubernetes things were built was exactly around this application architecture and, and it's

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to service this way of doing applications, which I think, I think what that, you know, why, why I get

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interested in this is it's kind of moving further up the stack of things to pay attention to that you're

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alluding to where I think sort of like understanding that this is our new architecture and therefore

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that's what we need to kind of focus on that, you know, when we go to our customers, what we're

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delivering is this architecture to them in the same way that like way back when for better or worse,

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the architecture we were delivering was like an ESB with, with data change in our formats. And,

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uh, or we were delivering like J2EE as an architecture to them. And, you know, what,

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what I'm interested more of like going forward is this discussion of like what that architecture is

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and, and what, what the, the best practices, uh, that people follow it are. Like I was watching

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another talk from, uh, from Swing Run kind of going over like a comparison of what was it, uh,

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Spring Cloud stuff and Istio. And it's like very minor, like what a service mesh does for you seemingly,

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but it has this great, like, uh, there's, it's that, that presentation is a great view into how you

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coordinate all those little nodes talking with each other. And therefore this is like the architectural

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focus of the application that you're doing, right? Like this is, this is how you coordinate and

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describe all the lines and dotted lines between things. And it seems like in contrast, a lot of

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the effort people are spending on Kubernetes now is basically on like getting it up and running and

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building it and kind of, you know, getting to that blinking cursor instead of, instead of describing,

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like, here's the patterns of how to do applications. And here's how you, uh, you move forward with it.

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You know, I, I think some of that's intentional. I think that, um, there's kind of, uh, a movement,

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a trend to think that developers need infinite flexibility, but infinite flexibility is sort of

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the, the opposite of where we've been going with, with, uh, the cloud, cloud native, right? If, if you

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want things to be fast, if you want to do things quickly, if you want things to be maintainable and

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scalable, they kind of need to be uniform, you know, and, and, and I think another fallacy that,

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that's, that's out there is that developers need access to, you need, you could end up with a

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problem. So you have to have access to everything. I need to be able to use everything. I need access

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to every tool, to every library, to every service. But, um, I don't, I don't think that's actually

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true. You know, I think that you, you, uh, you lose a lot and I think, you know, like I'm looking

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for a house right now and it would be a lot easy, easier for me if there was only one house.

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I have to look up in Atlanta, there's a million houses and I'm spending a lot of time instead of

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just finding the house and moving, I'm spending a lot of time thinking about it. And while that's

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maybe good for finding a house, cause I want to find the right house. That's not good for a developer.

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If, if I have to spend time figuring out what tools to use, what libraries I need to use,

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what language you need to write, I, I think that that is not efficient. I think that's not modern.

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Um, and I think that 95% of what we do is the same across every application, across every industry.

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You know, 5% might be unique to, to, to, to the project you're doing or to your company,

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but we all basically do the same thing. So we don't, we don't need,

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we don't need the confusion and the chaos that supporting every single thing in the world

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we give you.

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Right.

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But if you're, if you're, if you're an infrastructure team, you can create a list

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of the things you support and it looks pretty good for you. Look at all these things that we

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support. It's just, I think it makes it harder to be a developer. It makes it harder to actually

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get your business code out there to actually push your stuff. And you know, the, the key,

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the goal, right, is to get from ideation to production quickly. It's the path to production.

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And if you put a thousand more decisions in there, you're not speeding up that path. You're slowing

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down that path. And I guess one of the reasons I joined Pivotal is that I'm, I'm a true believer in,

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in that way, that walled garden that, you know, support 90% of what people need to do. And that's

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most of, most of everything.

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Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of, sort of like using constraints to reduce variability. Right. So

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instead of having a lot of options or choices, I mean, this is the, uh, was it, uh, was it in the

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nineties? There was, I think it was, uh, that Ruskoff guy who introduced the idea of like the serial

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row is overwhelming. Like not, not here in the Netherlands, but maybe since you're back in Atlanta,

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you've now encountered this where you go to the serial row and there's just like too many choices,

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right? Like there's, there's hundreds. Would it be hundreds? Well, there's probably, I think it's

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hundreds. Yeah. There's probably, I mean, it is 80 to 150 different options for cereal in, in,

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in an American grocery store, not to mention the various, uh, what would we call them skews? There

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are, there are cereal sweets in the cereal row that you can choose from, like the raisin brand sweet

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that you can buy, uh, all sorts of things from. And it does seem like shredded wheat sweet. Yeah.

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You definitely have those. And, and it does, it does seem like that is, um, to your point,

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right? Like if you're thinking about if, if, if you're an infrastructure person thinking about your

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customers as the developers that you're trying to basically speed up their work, right? Make it

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easier for them to, um, think about and get features out faster because there's all sorts of positive

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benefits to that. Then there's a balancing act between giving them like the tools they need and

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giving them some amount of choice, but also like not too much choice, right? Sort of constricting down

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to a standard. Um, and there's all sorts of issues that we've encountered over the years with that,

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when it comes to sort of like evolving those capabilities long-term and kind of integrating

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in like this year's new learnings, instead of getting stalled out in like a three-year-old or

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four-year-old stack. But I think, I think that's another thing that like, when you look at the cloud

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native style of developing, like it really tries to give you a minimal set of things you can do,

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right? Like, like there's a very small set of concepts of how you package things up, how they

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talk with each other. And that's kind of it. Like you're not left to just decide to do things

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willy nilly any way that you want. It's you're not sort of like, here's a server connected all

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together. Like it's, it's a very constrained environment for you. Yeah, that's just absolutely

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right. And I think that's one of the problems we're seeing with the way enterprises are doing

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Kubernetes is they're losing track of the cloud native part of it. Like, you know, the, the,

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and I think that's because of the thing that drives the, you know, both the infrastructure team

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and the developers. Developers love to use different tools. You start using different tools,

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those just, that pads your resume, right? And the, the infrastructure team loves to build complicated

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things because that's, that's fulfilling. So I think we've kind of, there's, we're psychologically

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set up to make this more difficult, but we're losing the cloud nativeness. Can you say cloud

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nativeness? Well, you just did. We're losing that. So I think you can. Yeah, we can't say it. Yeah,

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I said it twice. Um, so I think we're, I think we're losing it. And what we've done is taken,

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and, and I see this. So we've taken the old enterprise architecture and jammed it into, uh,

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Kubernetes. We've made Kubernetes as complicated as the old enterprise architecture and lost some of

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the cloud native value, but you don't have to, you know, you, you, you don't have to do that. It can

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be done right. I think there's three main points that like, like we, we should, we should think about

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and then get back together to discuss one of them being, um, this idea of, is, is it a valuable idea

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to build out your own things, which, you know, coming from two people who work at a vendor is a

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highly suspicious conversation to have from us, but I'm also someone who likes to build things.

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So, I mean, I think that I think so I, and we can deal with this tomorrow, but the answer is yes,

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but. Right. Right. Right. And, and I think, I think as always with that, that kind of supposition,

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uh, what's important in the discussion is to kind of like frame and model, uh,

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what your requirements are like, like why, like why you would be building something on your own

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and what you would be achieving with it and, and like what the drivers are. Sometimes it's good.

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Sometimes it's bad, whatever, like who knows, but just kind of more knowing like the context of it

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instead of just assuming that you should always start with that. I've got a whole model I use to

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decide whether to build or, or to buy. And, and we can talk about that. See that, that would be nice.

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And then I think the whole matrix, I need a name for it. So maybe someone can help me name it.

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And then, and then I think the second thing, I don't know the order of the second there,

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but the second is, is to use your phrase, losing the cloud nativeness. And, and I think,

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I think what that means, what, one thing that means is that if you are an infrastructure person

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in this, in this context that we're talking about, uh, your customer are, is developers and you could

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call them, you know, product teams or, uh, you know, software enabled businesses, whatever it's,

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it's, it's the teams of people who are working on features for the software that is helping run your

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business or kind of be the storefront to your customers. Right. And you're doing that primarily

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through a software, but the customers, the infrastructure people have are those, those

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teams, those, those people who want to build that out. And then, and then the third thing that,

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you know, it's easy to lose track of that. And, and the third thing that I think kind of follows from

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that is that what you get with Kubernetes is a type. I'll just call it. This is an enterprise

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architecture. And like any enterprise architecture, it can be subverted and munged around. And you can

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always just end up running a monolithic application that requires on a scale up architecture to perform

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well. Like it's, it's easy to arrive there. But if you, if you kind of follow the enterprise

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architecture more, it's basically just like, here is a constrained set of ways, uh, to write a

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distributed application. And here's how, here's how we'll specify how everything talks with each other.

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Now, I think the fourth part after that, which is, which is the part we haven't got around to,

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which is like, all right, so we got that. And what's every single thing else I need to install

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to, to, to make things work well. Like we talked about the infrastructure layer a little bit,

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but I think if you kind of start off with that goal of a product that we're trying to build,

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right, this platform, you know, everything else kind of follows out of that. Like all of the kind

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of governance and security that you need, uh, the monitoring and observability, and you sort of

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kind of start to build up this, uh, this, I don't know, you can product manage out of platform,

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uh, which I think, I think is, is useful for doing over the longterm. Cause that, you know,

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going back to my original question, when the, uh, the infrastructure people are looking at an empty

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whiteboard, that's what they're going to be building out, right? Like that, that kind of drives all the

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different components and, uh, the teams that they need, but we'll see. Perhaps we could, uh, pick

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this up tomorrow or some other time this week. And, uh, I'm sure we'll have thought of something that

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has nothing to do with my summary by then, but we can, uh, we, we can try to fill out the rest of that

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whiteboard. Well, uh, for people who are only listening, do you have a Twitter handle or someplace

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someone can go to follow you? Oh, I do. Dendrobates. D-E-N-D-R-O-B-A-T-E-S.

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Now, have I ever asked you, what is that?

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That is the genus for poison dart frogs. Oh, poison dart frogs. Okay. What makes them

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dart frogs? And like, do they, do they like go forward? Because they, because, you know,

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because traditionally, um, you could dip your arrow or dart in there on their skin,

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rub it on their skin and it would paralyze something. Huh? But so that one of the reasons I

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have the, the, the, the, the, I use that handle, which I've used for decades now is, um, they are

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only poisonous in the wild. They are, um, they are, they are completely tame and safe in captivity.

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Just like you, I guess. Just like me. Yes. Yes. Now, now we need to do, have some sessions to

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define what the wild is versus captivity for you. That that's, that's the, uh, the next layer there.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. I like that. Well, you know, I bet, I bet there's, there's a name

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for, there must be a word that describes naming something based on the function it gives humans,

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right? Like, like sometimes we call cow beef, right? And, uh, you know, like, like it's not named

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based on its own virtues, but the way that it's used in our, what we do with it on the whiteboard,

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so to speak. Yeah. And pork, but chicken is pretty much chicken. It's, it's, it's interesting,

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interesting linguistic thing. Yeah. I like that. Whereas, you know, an eagle isn't called like

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mascot, like, or you would think over the years, a lion or a bear could be called. Anyways,

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uh, that's, that's, uh, an idea for another time anyways. So, uh, as always, this has been a,

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uh, a little Tanzu talk episode. If you want to get the show notes, I mentioned a couple of videos

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and, uh, maybe I'll put in a link to a dart frog, but you can go to tanzu.vmware.com/podcast and look

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that up. And also, uh, if you're listening to this, uh, you should check out the schedule that we have

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for the, uh, VMware Tanzu, uh, streaming. It's, it's fun. And you

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get to see the, or I guess you see, you get to see and hear the sausage being made.

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Uh, you know, it's, it's, uh, that can be, which everyone should do. I mean, that's really

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important. They, they recommend that before you eat sausage, you should see it made.

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Exactly. It's, it's, it's, there must be some alternate phrases for that, that, uh,

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I need, I need to look up, but, uh, if you want to get on that, you can go to, uh,

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uh, twitch.tv/vmwaretanzu, and, uh, there's all sorts of other things that you can look up,

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but we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye.

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Bye-bye.

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Bye-bye.