It’s all about containers now

Episode 170 · 31:44 · SRT · archive.org · all Tanzu Talk

Well, I've had a child, Rita. I know the pictures have been everywhere. And so far, it's working out well. People have been asking me, I was saying this on one of my other podcasts, people keep asking me how the child thing is going. Maybe you have some tips to open up with. I've kind of run out of things to tell them that are, you know, you got to be careful when people ask you about family stuff. You don't want to, I need to firewall the answers I give there to the parents at school from the answers I would give to friends who know me well. And know that even though I may come off as like very cynical and hyperbolic, that that's only about 75% accurate somewhere. It's kind of like a salt caramel, right? Like, so, so like my, the aunt, you know, I basically am like, everything's good. Baby's healthy, but I don't know. I feel, I feel like, I feel like there's an answer that I'm supposed to give that I don't quite have access to. Or is it just like thumbs up is all I need to do and be like, oh, gotta go. Thumbs up. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. Love it. Or, you know, well, you went from two to three, which is apparently a huge jump, right? In that, I think someone described it as going from man on man to zone defense. Whoa. I don't know what that is. So it's a football term, I believe. Huh? Yes. I believe it's a sports ball thing, but I see how that makes sense. But you're, you've got a while before you have to get the zone defense thing going because she's just a little baby. Yeah. Her diapers are good enough zone defense for what she's throwing out. Everything's fine. Yeah. So that's my go-to answer now is that the, uh, the baby's getting fatter, which is good, right? You want a fat baby. And then, uh, there's only like two to three explosive diapers a week. Exactly. And you know what? And, but the poops don't smell yet because. Oh, that's true. They haven't had food. Do you remember that part? Do you remember that part? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll, I'll be reminded of it here. So, so I, so consequent, I took, I took some break from the, uh, as we call it now, Tanzu talk. And then also our, our, our, our friend, Richard Seroter, he went to go work at Google, I believe. So he can't be a co-host anymore. Uh, I, I get, actually, I never considered if I should just keep him on as a co-host. That would be exciting.

Bring him on as a guest someday. Maybe he'll, he'll do it. And so I was thinking through people who would be, uh, you know, good to, to pick up as a co-host and, and, and, you know, you are it, Rita. You, you know, the trends. I know you well, so we can relax. You, uh, you have a lot of energy. And, uh, also because, uh, you know, you're a great replacement for the Pacific time zone. So it's, I can, I can plague someone with having to get up very early to meet my Amsterdam time. Great. Well, it's a good thing I'm a morning person. Yeah, exactly. So here you are. Well, thanks. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited. Yeah. I think, I think, you know, uh, Rita's been on many times and she spends a lot of time. Uh, she does analyst relations here in, in Tanzu land and spends a lot of time talking with analysts and customers and, uh, people who are inside Pivotal. So it's a, it's a good position to kind of know what's going on. Cause you're, you're right in the middle of, uh, of all sorts of stuff. Of pretty much everything. Yeah, it's good stuff. Well, so, so, so speaking of, uh, speaking with analysts a lot now I have, I have a folder, uh, that I call inbox. Now what I do with this folder, Rita, is someone sends me some interesting information. Uh, or, or, or something to read or I come across it and I download it to the inbox folder and I never read it. That's now I have the best intentions. Yes, we all do. And so, so I've seen some things here and there, uh, you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, of, of kind of what the container marketplace is looking like, like the landscape, how, how people think about containers and cloud native, but I know you actually talk with people and you're more up to date. So I thought that would be a good, a good way to reopen, uh, that, you know, you and me doing podcast stuff here is like, you know, over the years you've been on the podcast and you're giving us kind of the analyst update, how they think about the space that like cloud foundry or Kubernetes or whatever is in. Uh, and, uh, what, what, what are they thinking nowadays? What is the container space container management? Really more than anything. Uh, I think I mentioned, um, Gartner did its first container management forecast analysis. Uh, they hadn't done that before. Um, and they're, they're saying that it's going to grow with a, um, compound annual growth rate of 34%.

Oh, uh, and reaching almost a billion dollars by 2024. So, uh, that's kind of big, big news, right? I think it's become synonymous with cloud native. And, uh, I've heard that I've heard analysts say that, and I've heard other people say that, you know, even customers that, you know, it's becoming synonymous with cloud native. Um, and it's going to be the choice, you know, at least in this piece, you know, Gartner's like Gartner saying that for, um, you want to be agile, you want to be flexible. You want to be, you know, you want to have, uh, on, on distributed container management services. Um, this is, uh, this is containers are the way to go and container management's the way to go. So let's see what other things they have in here that might be of interest. That is a good, that is a nice simplification. I mean, you put it in a very direct way, but that I've, I've, uh, had a lot of conversations with people recently. That's basically like, um, yeah. So what we're talking about now is containerizing things, right? And then, and then once you containerize the things, like you have to manage them and it's all the, uh, the usual stuff going on. Now, now I'm curious when, when they talk about like containerizing thing is, is there, is there some conversation that's like. And what do you do with that? Like, it would be one thing if it was just like, this is a better way to like virtualize things. But, but like, I would assume that, you know, it's, uh, you only get some of the opportunity if you're just moving from like VMs to containers. Like there must be some, some conversation that going on there about how, like, and then by virtue of containerizing things, you're given new abilities and powers. Yes. Uh, particularly I think migrating to the cloud. I think that's the big one. Um, public cloud. So sort of portability. Portability comes up. Yes. That's the P word has, has come up a lot now. I I'm dubious. I don't know. You know, I just think about, um, back in the days when, uh, open source was coming up and Linux is coming up, but everybody's talking about portability.

Um, and I wonder if it's just a check mark or if people are really going to do this, right? Are people moving workloads from cloud to cloud? Uh, I don't know from on-prem to cloud, probably, you know, how easy is that to do these days? I think this remains to be seen. Um, some companies are, you know, with, with lots of resources and lots of developers, um, probably are finding success there. Um, so I don't know. I don't know about the portability thing. You know, people keep talking about it. I don't, I don't know if I believe that's the main driver or if that people are going to do that. Um, so there, there's that, um, um, I think eventually, you know, it's going to be all about, uh, functions with the ultimate abstraction, you know, but we don't talk about that so much. And this doesn't come up in this particular report, but that's a whole other, uh, paradigm that I think is waiting in the wings. Yeah. I think ultimately is where everybody wants to get to. But I mean, look, you know, there's still so many things happening on-prem. There are so many things that are not going to move. Right. So, um, you can chain our eyes and keep them on-prem to get better, uh, performance. I don't know if that, again, to your point, I don't know if that's, that's the case. The other thing that, that comes up, I don't know why it's problematic, but, uh, managing open source. Really? That's interesting. Open source software, right? Like things like, um, you know, your, uh, CICD you might want to use or, um, metrics and logging. So, um, you know, that has come up as well as how you manage all the different services that you might run on your CAS, you know, container application service. Yeah. So, um, that's a challenge that also will eventually need to be addressed, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's, it's, it's like, I was, I was, uh, I was, I was writing something to someone recently and I don't know, maybe this is the bias of the life you've lived, but I was thinking like, oh, this is like the old heterogeneous IT management stuff from the 2000s where we're like, you have, you have like a new, uh, pardon the phrase computing paradigm. Right.

Like, and, and in the nineties you move from like, I don't know, you move, I don't know what you're moving from, but you move to windows. Right. And so you got all these windows things and it's like this gigantic mess. And then you got to like manage it. And then that brings about this whole management paradigm. And then the 2000s, you got like the internet and like all this other stuff and you got to manage that and on and on and on. And so like, you just have a new infrastructure layer. And then of course, like how you manage it and monitor it becomes a quite the big deal. And also drives new functionality, which, which it's almost like, I always hesitate, but maybe there's like the same patterns that happen over and over, which, which should be on one hand, it should be positive because as, as like, as like someone who's like managing this IT, you kind of know the strategy to put in place and what to ask about. Well, that's, yeah, I think you brought up a really great point. I think a lot of the folks that I talked to in the analyst world, at least, and even some folks who are not in the analyst world, even people that I've known for a long time in the industry, including, you know, my partner, there are patterns, you know, like just like in history. No, I think when you look at the industry and you watch these patterns happening, there's a lot of like, oh, that's back when such and such happened or such, you know, it's, there are patterns, you know, humans are wonderfully predictable and unpredictable, I guess. But yeah, I think you, that's something that I think about a lot. It's like, okay, I can see if you've been an analyst or been watching this space for a long, long time. You're like, I know how this is going to play out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, also to your, your, your portability thing, right? So, so you much more than I, but both you and I experienced the heyday of like Java and Sun, right? And I think there was like the right once run anywhere thing, which was, which is certainly cool. But, you know, my, what I remember, and I think applies to cloud stuff nowadays is like, the idea that you're just going to be like moving things around is, is not really like the primary benefit.

It's more that, that you have, it's almost like technical compatibility, but also like conceptual compatibility of like, wherever I may be running this thing, it's more or less the same ideas. Like, I don't need to learn how to run like a mini computer versus a mainframe versus like this managed hosting versus this thing. Like it's all, it's all a very similar, I don't know, layer. And I don't have to like learn and handle new things everywhere it may go because I don't know. I mean, moving stuff around is cool, being portable, but sometimes it's not really necessary. Right. Yeah. I, there is also, I mean, we were talking about new ways of people are working in new ways, right? Developers, particularly, right? They're being agile and cloud native and all these things. And so, you know, there's an affinity, right? For this, the container model and that kind of thinking. Well, to that, you know, you mentioned one thing, you know, which, which is, you know, I think you brought up like serverless or function programming or, well, first of all, what, what, what do the people call that nowadays? Is that, is that a FAS or serverless? It's FAS. FAS. FAS is the ultimate thing is what you want to get to, right? I mean, I guess, I guess, is serverless the model and function? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, as with all these things, it just depends on who you, who you're talking to. I'm sure there's many medium articles that are trying very hard to like, finally, like peg out what these terms are and what they mean. I remember reading one, like a year or so ago that really, it did a convincing thing of saying like, how these things are different and we should think of them. And, you know, I'm sure, unfortunately, that it probably won't stick. People just say whatever they want. But, but, but, but so is that, is that something that, that has, has come up in the conversations you have a lot or is it more, or I don't want to lead the witness? Like, is that a, is that a popular topic? It is, it is, it is in the, in the, in, if you're, if you're looking at the future, right? It is, but I think that people are really seeing it as it's not happening today. It is, I mean, if it is, okay, I hate to say this. So it's happening. And mostly it was when people are using Lambda. Like right now it's almost, and I hate to say this, but like, that's what people mean.

Is there mass critical mass and adoption? I don't think so. Not yet. I just don't think there is from what I've seen. They haven't done, you know, I mean, they haven't done a special forecast. I guess that's true, right? There's no, there's no market forecast for it, right? Which, which is a good, I mean, that's something that's whether, whether or not you can read the primary material or not. That's one of the things that's great about analysts is, is, or, or I should say, I mean, there are many things, but, but that the, a lot of what they publish on is driven by people asking them things like people who are running organizations. So if there is not yet a serverless, serverless forecast, that means there's kind of not enough people asking about it, which is an interesting, like, I don't know, weather patterns to be detecting. Oh, I was just talking with someone about that earlier today, how there is almost a, it was, it was a fellow co-worker. So there was a little bit of, of kind of reflecting on the past five or six years of, of stuff we've done. And there's a little bit of like, uh, everyone is interested in building out container infrastructure now. And, and it's important for them to not lose sight of like something like serverless, right? Like once we build out this container infrastructure, then, you know, I always joke that you have the blinking cursor problem. It's like, now you got to do something with it. And so like, I think it's, it's good to like track on, so when are we ready to like install software on that infrastructure and always kind of keeping an eye on, we're actually going to do something with this, not just like run these containers, right? Like, uh, which hopefully we won't lose sight too much of doing that in a big data centers just to like get some cool Kubernetes thing up and running. Yeah. You know, here's what I'll say. Um, our buddy, Jeffrey Hammond from Forrester and I've known him for a long, long time. He actually did a wave, a now tech and a wave, um, for us now, the wave is kind of the, it's a comparative report, um, similar to a Gartner magic quadrant and on IDC market scape and, um, et cetera.

Uh, he did one on, um, on functions of the service platforms is the way he's been calling it. So, and there were about eight vendors in it. So, you know, Amazon and Microsoft, obviously, but then, you know, and Google, and then you had a couple of others, Tencent and, uh, et cetera. So, so there's people looking at it and watching it closely. Um, so yeah, that's where, that's where it's at, but I haven't seen anything else, um, that thorough looking at that market and the vendors in that place. Yeah, I'll have to be on the lookout for some, uh, some sort of like smart art slide. I always like to see how people use smart art. It's very, very creative. There's always, I'm sure you, you see the, the, uh, very narrow arrow that goes up into the right when you can enter in text fields for the progress. I could, I would, I'll have to get some of this smart art and you'll see it and be like, uh, I've seen that like every day for my life. But anyways, like there, there must be some good smart art that's sort of like, you know, everything, everything coalesces into like container finally, and then it'll spread out into whatever you're running on top of that. I think that's another smart art that like, I'm doing this thing with my hands where like, if you would imagine if you took an octopus and you, you spread its four legs out on either side and you had the dot in the middle, it would be like an octopus's eight legs. It would be like four inputs going in coalescing and then four outputs going out and there must be, uh, I don't know. There must be some path there. That's, that's what we need to find. Yeah. And, and again, you know, um, you know, back to containers, Forrester is going to publish later this year, probably the next couple of months, uh, another wave, right. Uh, for container platforms. And the last time they did something like this, it was like, it was called a, it was, it was not as definitive and it was, um, uh, and it was just like, you know, container platform suites or something. They are enterprise container platform suite, software suites. And now it has the word development in it. Right. So that was really, I found that interesting, uh, that they're really looking at the development aspect. How does this help with application development?

And, um, I know we're going to talk about this later, but you know, that's one of the things that we're doing with Jeffrey Hammond in a few weeks or maybe next week actually is a webinar about this. That's a good segue into maybe a new segment called the Tanzu hustle. Yeah, there you go. Exactly. We, we, we always have lots of, uh, things going on. Yeah. So there's a webinar. It's on like a June, uh, when is it? June 30th. Oh, so what's that going to be? It's basically how to make the Kubernetes developer experience better or great, I think is the title. But again, I think that's in, in the end, it's what, that's what it's about. Containers, serverless, has, has, whatever. Uh, it's all in to, to make development better, easier, more productive, uh, and, and better quality software. I mean, that's what it's all about, right? In the end, you know, we've been hearing the whole software is eating the world and, you know, companies that treat software as a corporate asset are much, are further along, have better customer experience, better revenue, et cetera, et cetera. So, um, that's the thing that I think is interesting is that I think containers and container management is really at that place where, but how does it serve, uh, how does it help us build better software, right? And so, you know, that leaves a lot of work to do with, you know, what would be called operators or traditional infrastructure and operations folks, or, you know, VMware's traditional audience, um, thinking differently, right? About their, um, their role and their job. So who do you have on that roster? Who's going to be, uh, presenting that? Oh yeah, this will be with Jeffrey Hammond, uh, Tiffany. Uh, she's, uh, uh, relatively new to VMware, um, uh, advocate and, uh, Jacob Bogey. He also works at VMware, so it should be fun. Yeah. You know, this reminds me highly related. So I'm also, I'm doing a, Ooh, I guess it's later this week. Uh, I'm doing a webinar called, uh, someone called it FedOps, which is, is great.

It's basically just about doing operation stuff for a U S central people. I mean, I would assume it applies to other government stuff. Outside of the U S uh, but, but Craig McLuckie and I are going to have like a discussion about what operations looks like, uh, when you're doing, uh, you know, cloud native container stuff and how roles change and some Fed specific stuff. And that's on a Thursday this week, June 25th. And I'll put links to both of these. If you, uh, I need to look up what the short URL is, but, uh, if you go to the show notes, uh, or I'll probably put some chapter markers in here so you can open that up and click on them, but you should definitely check out those webinars. But this reminds me of a question that came up when I was talking with, who was I talking with? I was talking with someone else who was, who was coincidentally in the government space. And they were telling me that the phrase operator means like people who like manage physical hardware. And instead of sort of like, you know, I just blanketly call anyone who's not a developer and operator, but do you, do you hear, do you hear people like using a different phrase like sysadmin or operator person? I don't hear sysadmin. Very rarely do I hear sysadmin. Operator to me though, I think is, so I'm going to channel Joe Fitzgerald here. Um, I think that they do more than just operate, right? I think they have to do more than operate a platform now or, or, or just manage servers. Yeah. Um, I think that now, you know, especially if we start talking about the concept of product over project, right? They, they have to consider the platform that they are managing, um, a product, which means, uh, they are making it constantly making it better, uh, iterating on it, making it more secure, adding features, right? It's, it's, it becomes more, they're feeding and caring for this thing now, not just operating it, not just operating it. So I know some folks cringe at the idea of calling someone an operator, but you know, I think that if we, we just change what the definition of operator means, right?

It's not just pushing the buttons. Okay. I'm doing it. Like, you know, if you're like, if you're operating a train or something like, okay, I mean, that's a, you know, that's a serious thing, but you know, it, there's more to it than just operating it. You know, there's care and feeding that's required these days. Yeah, no, there, there needs to be evolution of that. Uh, you know, like, like, uh, you know, going back in history again, right? Like the, the last, the last, I think development of the sysadmin idea was that you're providing a service to people. And so you manage that service and, and now it feels like the evolution is like, here, here's an ever evolving product that you have that like you're treating, instead of thinking about delivering a service, like utility, you're delivering a product to someone. You have customers and you have to constantly, uh, evaluate what, what they're doing. But anyway, so there's, there's two good webinars coming up. We'll have to, uh, I'm sure there'll be something by next episode to go over as well. So I, I have two more little things, both of them question oriented. I think, I think that we can go over one. I know, I know you like to cook a lot, right. Or, or I should say like food. So I need to know, I need to know, Rita, how can I tell if my olive oil is still good? How do, how do I, how do I figure that out? Oh, you mean like that it hasn't gone rancid? Yeah. Cause, cause I, it was, it was a big revelation to me a couple of years ago when I learned that olive oil can go bad. And it made me think like, you know, I'm a big, well, not now that I'm in Amsterdam, but I would shop at Costco all the time and you buy that giant thing of olive oil. And I had become very concerned that the olive oil must've been going bad because I had this gigantic barrel of it. And so I want, I want to know like, how do I, how do I test it out? How do I tell? You can just, the taste, I mean, have you, have you, have you tasted rancid oil? I don't know. I, I, nuts, you can tell me, have you ever had like really old, like there's that kind of, it's a specific, nuts will have it, oils will have it, and not just olive oil, any kind of oil, they go rancid. There's this, you can, you cannot not tell now here's what I do. Cause I usually buy, I use olive oil a lot. So I usually buy the big, the big bottle from, from Costco as well.

I leave it in my pantry and I have a smaller bottle that I keep on the counter of where I'm cooking. Yeah. And it's, and it, and I seem to be fine. I have not had olive oil go rancid in a long, long, long time. So I think you're all right. You know, if it's, you know, if it's more than six months old, maybe, I mean, I don't know, I would check online. I don't know. More than six months. I haven't had it. Yeah. I mean, I've had other things go rancid, you know, like you might have to buy a special oil and then only use it for that one dish. Right, right, right. You buy like, like, like I bought a, like a truffle oil recently and, and there must be some name for some, some sort of bias for this, but I'm always, there, there's a thing where you buy like a valuable luxury thing and you almost like don't use it because it's too valuable. And so like with, with this, exactly with this truffle oil, I have to constantly be remembering like this was like an expensive thing, but I need to use it before it goes bad. It's not like a block of gold or something. Put it on your popcorn. Oh, that's a good idea. Truffle oil popcorn is delicious. So you could use it that way. If you want to use it a lot, you could put it on your omelet. Like, yeah, add all the things you can also put it, actually, you could also put it in the refrigerator if you're really concerned. Right. So just refrigerate. I think maybe what I need to do, this is a long-term project, which I'm terrible at is maybe I should set aside, I should buy the same type of olive oil and set aside like a, like a, like a half cup of it and let it just like sit there for six months or seven months and then I can taste it and see what it tastes like when it's bad because I've started, like I'll taste the olive oil all the time nowadays, but I don't think I've, I've gotten the rancid oil. All right. All right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, anything that has oil in it will go rancid too. Like crackers, I'm like, crackers go rancid, but just taste old. You just know, just taste old. Yeah. That would be a good show. Learning what food tastes bad. Or like, you know what? I don't know how to tell corked wine. Someone can help me with that someday.

I'm like, I don't know. Have I had corked wine? Oh yeah. Yeah. I had corked wine. I was thinking it was bad wine. I don't know. That's a good, yeah. That's a good idea. All right. Well, I was thinking, you know, I, I always like to have like a bit at the end of shows. I was thinking when we could try this out and see if it fits, but I was thinking at the end of every show, given, given that we talk with, uh, you know, a variety of people, we should come up with like, what is one or more like thought provoking questions you've come across recently? Now it doesn't have to be like thought provoking in the, in that it's, um, uh, prodding. It could also just be like a topic of like, here's an interesting conversation topic. And I'll, I'll, I'll give it an example and go over like why I think it's interesting. So, so you have time to think of one and that is, so I have like a little weekly newsletter and I was writing one up. I was trying to, you know, write up the idea of like, Hey, uh, if you're like an executive or a manager and you're going through some transformation thing, like, you know, you should, you need to actually change the way that you're operating. So like how, what's, what's like, what's like a way you could ask people to kind of verify if they're changing or not. And so I, you know, I had kind of an incomplete list of like, here's, here's like changes in behavior that you should kind of go over to see if you're actually doing something. Right. Because like, as people like to say, if, uh, if you don't change, you're never going to change. So there should be things that are, that are going on. And the first one I thought of was like, it seems like a good question to ask would be like, so how have you changed the way you run meetings or the meeting structure that you have or anything about the meetings that you do, which, you know, isn't necessarily to be like, you know, do you have 15 minutes standup meetings or, or, or something like that, but it's more of like, it almost doesn't actually matter what the changes. Especially initially, because if you're like a manager, more or less your most frequently used and effective tool is meetings, which, you know, people may dislike meetings, especially individual contributors who need to like do things.

But I don't know anybody like that. Okay. Who doesn't like meetings? But, but in general, like, you know, that's where managers, like that's where action occurs, right? Like people come to you, you discuss things, you get, you get all of the, uh, all of the information in front of you. And, you know, as, as, uh, that little sign on, uh, president Truman's desk used to say the buck stops here. Eventually someone has to make a decision and that's often done in a meeting, right? So a meeting is like a crucial tool that managers have. So if you are changing the way that you're like running your organization, that you're doing software, like if you shifted around people and you're doing all these different things and you're trying to think of things in a product term and where you're experimenting and doing lean startup stuff and blah, blah, blah. Chances are in your meetings, things are going to be going differently. And so if you haven't really changed your meetings around very much, there's probably something as a manager, uh, that you're not up to. So that's my first, uh, interesting question to, to ask people, but have you come across any, uh, interesting questions or topics that people have been asking about? That's a good, uh, good little thought worm. Well, what I've been thinking about a lot lately is trade-offs, right? So I might get, uh, get folks that talk about how they're thinking about trade-offs with their either technical decisions or structural decisions. So I don't have a specific question there, but I might start just saying, Hey, so what are the trade-offs of, um, you know, using an on-prem container service versus one in the public cloud, right? Or, uh, vice versa, um, with the trade-off of, of doing, um, doing things, getting things on the cloud, you know, leaving your backend systems, uh, as is versus modernizing them. So, uh, yeah, I think I'd probably pick at that a little bit, uh, how you think about trade-offs and how they make decisions when they're faced with these things. That to me is interesting because it's also just about life in general as well.

Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's always good to hear how people, like, uh, are thinking through the, the, the pluses and the minuses. Yeah. Like, have you changed the way you approach trade-offs, right? Yeah. Yeah. You're looking for, yeah. Like, like, like, like you're, you're making me think like another way of, this would be fun to just, just, uh, I don't know if my, my kids are old enough, but a fun, a fun stock question to have is like, how do you choose between two good options? Right. Like, like what, how, how do you systematically go through that and, uh, and think through it? Or in some cases, two bad ones. That's right. Two equally good or equally bad options. Right. The worst of two evils, whatever, you know? Yeah. It's, I think that's, yeah, I think I'm fascinated with how people think about, uh, different, different things. I mean, it all has to do with also what you, what you value, I think. Right. Either as an organization or an individual. So it goes back to, what do you, you know, I think Dormain thinks a lot about this whenever I work with her. She's another, uh, you know, she does, she's the other main host of the podcast and it's, what are you optimizing for? What are you trying to get to? You know, what is it that you're trying to accomplish? So. Yes. The old, the old, what is your goals question? That's, that's always a very basic back to bay. Everything goes back to basics. Yes. All right. Well, well, I think that's, that's a good, that's a good reboot episode. Now, as always, you know, as we mentioned earlier, Twitter's the best place for, for news, I am Coté, C-O-T-E and Twitter. And who are you? What is, what is your handle? Rita M, R-I-T-A-M. Another fine short one. Yeah. I got an early, I remember when Twitter first started, I was like, Rita M, all right. Exactly. And I, I have, I have discovered the URL now. Listen, listen, I'm going to have to work on getting a shorter URL because this one is a little long, but if you go to Tanzu, T-A-N-Z-U.vmware.com slash content slash podcast, you can find the show notes here. I might, I might need to find one of my spare domain names and just have it redirected to there. And just so it's a lot easier to say, but you can find the, I love it. You're like, I have spare domain names. I'm just lying around.

You know, it's just like, it seemed like a good idea at the time. And I, and I can't, I can't make myself not pay for it. And there'll be the two webinars we mentioned there and other, other relevant links. So we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye. Exciting. Bye.

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