1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,480 Okay, well, welcome back, folks. We've got another episode of Tanzu Talk. And with me 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:19,960 today, I've got Rita Minacci, who leads analyst relations for Tanzu and Derek Harris, who 3 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:27,200 you may know and love from the Cloud Native in 15 Minutes podcast or the Intersect blog 4 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,400 on Tanzu.vmware.com. Derek, Rita, you want to say hello? 5 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:32,460 Sure. Hi, gang. 6 00:00:32,740 --> 00:00:38,260 Yeah, Rita's definitely been on this podcast before, sometimes just getting us up to speed 7 00:00:38,260 --> 00:00:46,820 on what's been going on with the analyst community. And today, we sort of have a way of summarizing 8 00:00:46,820 --> 00:00:55,860 and recapping a little bit of some of the content that is currently available on the Tanzu.vmware.com 9 00:00:55,860 --> 00:01:01,640 content library. If you go there, there's a couple of Gartner reports that we currently 10 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:08,460 have distribution rights to. And so, you know, somewhat limited time. But if you go on, it's 11 00:01:08,460 --> 00:01:13,540 a great way to get access to some of the research from some folks, some of the analysts who are 12 00:01:13,540 --> 00:01:19,840 out there talking to a lot of different organizations, and sort of identifying some patterns in what 13 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:27,400 they're noticing across both the technology landscape as well as what is driving change inside enterprises. 14 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:34,980 So what the three of us decided to do is sort of divide and conquer a little bit, and each 15 00:01:34,980 --> 00:01:42,020 dig into one of these reports. And now we can actually, we're going to educate each other and 16 00:01:42,020 --> 00:01:51,120 any of our listeners here on what kind of takeaways did we find from our different readings. So let's 17 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,460 see who wants to go first. 18 00:01:53,580 --> 00:01:59,900 I'll go first. And then, and then we can go from there. You know, mine's definitely the report that 19 00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:08,460 I chose to, to read and kind of, and discuss is from Forrester. It's written by Charlie Betts. 20 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,680 He's also on Twitter, if you want to follow him. He's been covering DevOps and the like for a long 21 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,560 time. He was one of the reviewers on the Phoenix Projects. And the title is top 10 trends that will 22 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,400 shape modern infrastructure and operations in 2020. 23 00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:28,360 Well, who doesn't love a top 10 list? I mean, this is like the buzzfeed of Gartner. 24 00:02:28,660 --> 00:02:32,720 Yeah. I got to be honest, like 10 was a lot in this case. I was like, oh my goodness. I mean, 25 00:02:32,740 --> 00:02:36,420 but there were definitely, there were, I mean, there were, there were definitely some areas where I 26 00:02:36,420 --> 00:02:42,920 got a little bit lost. But the things that stuck out for me that I think were also probably coming 27 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:49,380 through in some of the, some of your reports are, uh, that, um, uh, process is how we think about 28 00:02:49,380 --> 00:02:56,680 process changes. Um, how I know folks need to think about collaboration has changed and the need for 29 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,380 automation, right? How automation is going to change their, their jobs and their roles. Uh, and one of 30 00:03:01,380 --> 00:03:04,860 the things that it talks about here, and it's kind of this elephant in the room thing, it's like, okay, 31 00:03:04,860 --> 00:03:10,100 so with all this automation and things changing, what is the role of I know, right? Is it becoming 32 00:03:10,100 --> 00:03:17,960 unnecessary if you think of things like in terms of product teams and the like? And the, the point 33 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:23,380 he makes is that no, it's just now you have denser work, right? It's not as much work, but the work 34 00:03:23,380 --> 00:03:28,520 you're doing is perhaps more strategic, more value at, and more aligned to the business. And I've also 35 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,540 heard this from, from other analysts. You know, there was one analyst who talked about how he automated 36 00:03:32,540 --> 00:03:37,360 himself out of a job when he was at a big financial firm. He said, oh my God, what did you do? He said, 37 00:03:37,700 --> 00:03:43,040 I worked on more strategic things. So finding that and finding a path to do that, you know, 38 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,720 and this kind of gives you some ideas, I think, and refining how you can take all the skills you have, 39 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:54,020 all the, the learnings that you've had as an I know pro understanding the systems and, um, and 40 00:03:54,020 --> 00:03:58,300 really, uh, bringing that to the, to the table, if you will, or to the party. 41 00:04:00,460 --> 00:04:06,180 Yeah. I mean, that's, uh, that's cool that he's, he's calling out the elephant in the room, 42 00:04:06,180 --> 00:04:12,340 uh, for, for what it is, because I think that that's one of those unspoken things that sometimes 43 00:04:12,340 --> 00:04:18,760 comes up when, when folks are looking at a lot of the cloud native, uh, technologies and people get 44 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:24,520 really married to their process, whether it's conscious or not, but they just, they start to 45 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:29,860 focus in on, well, it's like, this is the way we've always done things. And whether it's because 46 00:04:29,860 --> 00:04:38,840 they, that process allows them to feel safe in the face of, uh, past experiences without that process 47 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:47,460 where things were insecure or, uh, they went down or they were out of compliance. And those experiences 48 00:04:47,460 --> 00:04:53,980 feel pretty yucky. Um, and so, okay, now we have this process and then everyone gets really invested 49 00:04:53,980 --> 00:04:59,960 in the process and they're not always willing to, to revisit it. I know I'm kind of blending, um, 50 00:05:00,020 --> 00:05:04,820 your first point a little bit, but I feel like automation and process are like two sides of the 51 00:05:04,820 --> 00:05:10,200 same coin. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, he, he, he goes into this whole kind of vicious cycle 52 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:17,900 of, of, of, of process and productivity. Right. Um, and he quotes, uh, uh, Jeff Bezos and as well, 53 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:22,480 where he says, good process serves you so you can serve customers. But if you're not watchful, 54 00:05:22,540 --> 00:05:27,840 the process can become the thing. Um, and that can happen easily in large organizations. You know, 55 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:31,560 he has, again, this vicious cycle of like, okay, you're not showing your productivity. So let's add 56 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,400 more process, which detracts from your productivity. It's got a little visual there too. The process 57 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:43,340 vicious cycle is called. Oh yeah. Who doesn't love a visual of, of a vicious cycle? I'm expecting 58 00:05:43,340 --> 00:05:49,600 like there'll be dragons and maybe a squagger or a squagger. Isn't it supposed to be a virtuous 59 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:56,420 cycle or a flywheel? This is the, this one goes counterclockwise. Yeah. Well, except if you're 60 00:05:56,420 --> 00:06:02,560 in the Southern hemisphere, then the virtuous cycle goes clockwise and the vicious cycle goes counterclockwise 61 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:08,960 or something like that. Yeah. So our, our friends down under sometimes experience things a little 62 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:14,700 differently. Oh, where was I? Um, you distracted me with the squagger. Squagger, I feel like does beg 63 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:19,860 a little bit of explanation because we, we all just recently got exposed to this concept of a, 64 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:29,180 of a hybrid animal of a squirrel tiger, uh, combination, really a beautiful creature that exists only in, 65 00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:36,600 um, you know, Photoshop, but, uh, you know, if you can imagine like the, the tenacity of a, 66 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:44,340 of a squirrel and the, the power of a tiger, that's, that's a fearsome beast. Um, even if in a small 67 00:06:44,340 --> 00:06:50,620 package. So yeah, like, you know, what, what that reminds me of kind of the idea that, that Bezos 68 00:06:50,620 --> 00:06:56,920 has this quote about process becoming the thing, it reminds me, you know, about, uh, maybe nine months 69 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:04,180 ago or so we had Len Hardy from, uh, Northern trust on, on the, on the podcast for, for listeners 70 00:07:04,180 --> 00:07:10,740 may remember that one. And he, he really talked about unwinding the folklore. And this was particularly 71 00:07:10,740 --> 00:07:15,980 around compliance and like having to revisit how, you know, the highly regulated organization, 72 00:07:15,980 --> 00:07:23,060 they were in compliance as they were deploying to, uh, new platforms, um, preparing to move 73 00:07:23,060 --> 00:07:29,800 more workloads into the cloud, but also really just seeking, you know, that automation, um, 74 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:36,680 uh, experience, right. So that, that they could get to production faster, but so many of the blockers 75 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:42,220 along the way, you know, we're sort of held up by this notion of like, well, this is how we stay 76 00:07:42,220 --> 00:07:47,040 compliant. And if we don't do this, then we're not compliant. It's like, well, actually you can just 77 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:52,700 find another way to be compliant. Like being compliant is really just, you have to understand 78 00:07:52,700 --> 00:07:58,880 the underlying regulation. So, um, that comes up a lot. And I think a lot of people, um, it takes, 79 00:07:59,020 --> 00:08:04,540 it takes some fortitude to, to spare down those processes, particularly when there's kind of the, 80 00:08:04,540 --> 00:08:12,100 the gravitas of things like the compliance and security, um, where it, yes, we of course want 81 00:08:12,100 --> 00:08:15,460 the same goals, but we can approach this differently and we can change our process. 82 00:08:15,460 --> 00:08:20,020 And then the other thing that reminds me of was a couple of weeks ago, um, we had Neville 83 00:08:20,020 --> 00:08:26,540 George of Comcast on the podcast. And I really liked this, this concept that he talks about where, 84 00:08:26,540 --> 00:08:35,240 um, it challenged, I think a notion that we have about how processes change, um, and really brought 85 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:45,160 to, to, to light the, the role and the power of the individual to be willing to work, uh, differently. 86 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:51,300 And that, you know, process change sometimes gets associated with, you know, we brought in some 87 00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:56,040 consultant and they analyzed everything and they made recommendations. And then we had a, 88 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:03,320 you know, the whole process takes 18 months from analysis to roll out. And it's all very top down 89 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:11,620 driven. And, and he pointed out how there's also just a lot that individuals can do when they're just 90 00:09:11,620 --> 00:09:19,160 willing to, to reach out across the aisle, um, to teammates across different silos. And then they're 91 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:24,240 able to actually change the way things get done because they've taken the time to understand what 92 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:31,180 a counterpart is trying to accomplish. And that sort of grassroots approach, um, I think it's been really 93 00:09:31,180 --> 00:09:38,160 powerful, uh, for, for some of certainly our, our customers who've been able to accomplish a lot 94 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:43,600 of change. So yeah, really like that, that connection between process and automation to me is, 95 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:49,400 is really interesting. And it's, it's interesting that both of those are covered in this top 10 report. 96 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,640 And, you know, and we can probably, I'm sure we'll get into this a little bit more later. 97 00:09:55,140 --> 00:10:00,380 There are, at least, I mean, the concept of product thinking and product teams is in there in two 98 00:10:00,380 --> 00:10:04,880 different, uh, two different trends. So that's something I definitely want to, uh, make sure we 99 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,940 discuss because that's, uh, really important. And it's a core tenant of a lot of the stuff that, 100 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,420 that we espouse, um, you know, in Pivotal Labs. 101 00:10:13,460 --> 00:10:20,440 Yeah. Well, I mean, and that, that's actually an interesting segue, um, into the, to the report 102 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:27,020 that I was looking at. Um, but you know, I want to make sure Derek has a chance to chime in on the, 103 00:10:27,020 --> 00:10:32,960 the process and automation question and then, yeah, let's hear more about the, the product mindset 104 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:43,180 stuff. Process and automation question. That's right in my sweet spot domain. I mean, yeah, I mean, 105 00:10:43,180 --> 00:10:48,100 and I think this is just a process to me. It's one of those things where like you mentioned, 106 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:54,160 and I think you're referring to Len Hardy, but like you have to understand the rationale. I think 107 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,920 it's important to understand the rationale, the reason that the process exists and then figure, 108 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,920 yeah, like you said, figure out a different way to be compliant because it's not, it's, it's never 109 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:08,300 like these things are set in stone or, you know, if a process has been in place for a decade, 110 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:14,120 there's probably, probably the reason that that process was originally in place as, has evolved 111 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:19,580 as well. And the idea that you see here, it's about moving to the cloud. For example, it's a cloud 112 00:11:19,580 --> 00:11:25,240 is insecure because you know, our, our, the compliance requires our data centers to be, well, we know 113 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,100 whatever the rules are, wherever, you know, stuff had to be located, right? But stuff changes and then 114 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:33,860 the world moves around you. And the idea that, you know, you're, you were, that you could not be 115 00:11:33,860 --> 00:11:38,320 compliant operating in the cloud as you know, Ben, and sometimes sure, maybe take some 116 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,080 legislation and that sort of, if you're a big company, you can push with some stuff, but like, 117 00:11:42,340 --> 00:11:47,100 or regulations changing, but like, there are things happening around you that you have influence over 118 00:11:47,100 --> 00:11:52,820 that. Yeah. The idea that, I mean, getting stuck in a process because it's there is probably 119 00:11:52,820 --> 00:11:55,800 historically a very foolish way of going about things. 120 00:11:57,020 --> 00:12:01,380 Yeah. I like that point you've made about understanding why the process is there and, 121 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,980 you know, no one's saying process isn't necessary. In fact, you know, it's a, as, as Charlie puts it, 122 00:12:05,980 --> 00:12:12,220 it's a, it's a powerful tool that you can use to empower people or, uh, it can lead to, uh, over 123 00:12:12,220 --> 00:12:18,520 managing or, uh, you know, complicating things. Right. And I, I imagine that, um, a process that 124 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,360 allows empowerment is one, like he talks at some point in the report about change management, 125 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,860 right. And getting rid of change management, management boards. And that would mean you'd have 126 00:12:26,860 --> 00:12:32,260 to have a process to allow teams to make changes themselves. So they are automated. 127 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,300 They can automate the, either automate the process or they're empowered to make those changes and not 128 00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:38,140 have to go to this change board and all that stuff. So. 129 00:12:38,140 --> 00:12:46,320 And I think that in order to introduce automation, you do need to define processes because that is, 130 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,180 if you don't have a process, you don't have anything to automate. Everything is ad hoc. 131 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:51,760 Exactly. 132 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:58,160 It's only when things start to become repeatable that you can introduce automation. And so the 133 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:04,380 repeatability of a process is exactly what looking for to automate. But I think that the challenge 134 00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:10,120 is then also, you need to be willing to revisit processes. And as people are trying to introduce 135 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:15,000 automation, that's where they run in, at least in my experiences, they're running into friction 136 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:22,700 because the current process doesn't really allow for automation. It's not, it's designed in a very, 137 00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:31,480 you know, uh, analog world. Like, I mean, if you go back not too long ago, or certainly in plenty of, 138 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:38,400 uh, organizations, government entities today, right. The process involves paperwork. Right. And it's so 139 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:44,840 the perfect example of where it doesn't lend itself to automation because it's literally the DMV has a 140 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:51,160 form. Right. But if you start to understand to Derek's point, why do we have these things? Why do we need to 141 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:58,140 capture this information now? Can we start to digitize and then automate, et cetera? But, um, even processes 142 00:13:58,140 --> 00:14:04,460 that, that aren't paper-based, right. Can still be very manual. If it's like a certain, like there needs to be a 143 00:14:04,460 --> 00:14:11,160 change board review or certain people need to sign off. And, you know, the classic example is, you know, listening 144 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:17,200 to, to Kyle Campos, uh, uh, you know, over at Smarsh talking about how, when he went back and, and actually 145 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:22,460 interviewed all the people who were on the review chain, a bunch of them were like, yeah, I don't 146 00:14:22,460 --> 00:14:28,700 know. I just, I get these things. And I, I, I click this button. They were, they were approving 147 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:34,980 things. They were part of this chain, but they weren't really adding any value. Um, it was just 148 00:14:34,980 --> 00:14:40,500 part of the process. So classic example of like, maybe this process should be revisited. All right, 149 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:46,800 let's, let's switch over to, uh, the, uh, the, the product thinking point that's in this I and O trends 150 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:53,540 piece. And then I'll jump off from there because that, that dovetails really well with the, the, the report 151 00:14:53,540 --> 00:15:00,380 that I looked at. Yeah. I mean, it's all the rage, right? Product thinking is a new black. Um, I mean, I was 152 00:15:00,380 --> 00:15:07,260 the case, but I feel like it's, it's, it's still too niche, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. 153 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:16,880 Um, I will say that I, the first time I heard this concept, I loved it so much because it gives life 154 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,560 to the platform if you will, right? Cause you think about platform teams and it, and it, again, 155 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:26,460 I think it speaks to people feeling more connected to the work that they're doing. So I'm getting a 156 00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:30,040 little, I know I'm getting a little wishy-washy or maybe a little touchy feely here, but, um, I know 157 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:35,300 there's more to it than just, you know, really recognizing your platform as a product and such 158 00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:41,520 requires care and feeding and managing and iterating. And I mean, if you think of it, 159 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,980 if you think of it as a, as a product, you're going to be constantly improving it, right? Cause 160 00:15:45,980 --> 00:15:49,220 you don't just do a product and throw it over and be like, okay, now it's it. And this is it forever, 161 00:15:49,220 --> 00:15:54,320 right? You're going to, you know, make it better, um, either make it more performant or add more 162 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:59,480 features or whatever, more secure, whatever it is. So I love that idea. Um, and then I think, 163 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:04,220 you know, that also lends itself to the notion that, you know, of, of developers being your 164 00:16:04,220 --> 00:16:09,780 customers, uh, in terms of an internal perspective. I just think about, um, conversations with, with, 165 00:16:09,860 --> 00:16:14,480 um, Brendan A. from T-Mobile and he's like, oh yeah, our customers. And like clarify that, 166 00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:18,720 right? He kept using the term customers, meaning they're developers. And I just, I really liked that. 167 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:19,800 I love this idea. 168 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:27,120 Pride is a powerful motivator. I mean, anyone who's, uh, had to deal with, you know, small 169 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,220 children, get them motivated to get themselves dressed and do their homework and, you know, 170 00:16:32,260 --> 00:16:37,740 get potty trained or whatever, whatever milestone you want to pick. Like so much of that tapping into, 171 00:16:37,740 --> 00:16:45,940 you know, that individual sense of, of pride is, uh, is a really powerful way for them to, 172 00:16:45,940 --> 00:16:52,400 uh, take on and, and push themselves to the next level. But also, you know, when you're looking at 173 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:58,060 a team and how they're structured, like, yeah, let people have a sense of pride in their, their work 174 00:16:58,060 --> 00:17:06,200 and having that product mindset gives people, I think that opportunity. And it seems like a really 175 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,760 powerful motivator. And I think it also just taps into that, that entrepreneurial spirit that 176 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:17,300 many people have, you know, even if they never packed their bags and went to Silicon Valley, 177 00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:25,000 uh, to play that, you know, play that game. Um, you know, those folks are, are all over the place. 178 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,360 And, and when you can tap into that, then that's like, you really bring out a lot of the best in 179 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:38,920 people. So that was just to, I'll, I'll jump off there. Well, you know, Derek, feel free to chime 180 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:48,220 in, um, disagree. Uh, but that's, I, I, I don't think that we're really at the point yet where the, 181 00:17:48,220 --> 00:17:54,640 the product thinking is the new black. I, I feel like we still have a long slog before folks have 182 00:17:54,640 --> 00:18:02,380 really internalized that in its main, it's true. I know. I think product thinking is the thing that's 183 00:18:02,380 --> 00:18:09,940 been down the Paris and Milan runway. Can I make a maybe off referral, like not exactly accurate 184 00:18:09,940 --> 00:18:18,940 fashion reference. And that's very good. People on the cutting edge are aware organizations on the 185 00:18:18,940 --> 00:18:22,800 cutting edge, but for everyone else, it's, it's very, I hear, I hear it thrown around and it took 186 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:28,160 me about 10 references internally to finally start to wrap my head around it. But like a lot of things 187 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,180 that I hear internally, and then when you try to apply them, when you look for them in the outside 188 00:18:32,180 --> 00:18:39,080 world, you're just not seeing it as frequently. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, 189 00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:45,220 I've been working in product marketing, which is actually pretty aligned to that thinking. And so 190 00:18:45,220 --> 00:18:51,000 it was easy to get, but I also have to remember that like, I'm already in some ways doing that job. 191 00:18:51,380 --> 00:18:58,120 So, uh, it's, it's easier for me. And, you know, I don't know. I'm a, I'm already a subscriber to the 192 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:03,860 women's wear daily. If I, if I'm going to bring you back to the Paris and Milan runway reference, 193 00:19:03,860 --> 00:19:12,140 I'm trying, Derek, I'm trying. Those are like, I read the devil wears Prada like 15 years ago on a 194 00:19:12,140 --> 00:19:18,240 beach. And that's what I learned is that the people who are really in fashion read women's wear daily 195 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,900 to know what's going to, what's going to be showing up in the magazine six months later. 196 00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:27,280 Yeah. Clearly a lot of deep learning from that. 197 00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:32,380 Mm-hmm. Um, I was going to say one of the things that he, he, that they're talking about in this 198 00:19:32,380 --> 00:19:38,500 report that I saw come up in both of the reports that you, uh, you folks have took on is like kind 199 00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:42,400 of the makeup of a product team. Like what you might, you have to, you know, somebody from dev, 200 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,940 somebody from line of business, you know, somebody from security. Um, and again, the, 201 00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:54,460 the C word collaboration in this case, uh, comes up a lot, uh, in all three reports, I believe so. 202 00:19:54,700 --> 00:20:00,540 And in literally every discussion you have with anyone who's thinking about, uh, I mean, 203 00:20:00,580 --> 00:20:05,100 realistically, I think anyone who's working in the, let's call it the cloud native world broadly 204 00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:12,620 is, I mean, I had a guy Pajarni, um, the co-founder of sneak, uh, on, on my podcast a while 205 00:20:12,620 --> 00:20:16,440 ago. And we talked about it like on the security front and it was just a matter of things are 206 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,760 changing so fast. And then open to between open source and cloud services and, and the, 207 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:27,240 the, you know, the ephemeral nature of containers and all these things like all security processes 208 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:32,020 need to be, he was like, the security processes need to be readjusted. It's security can't be a 209 00:20:32,020 --> 00:20:37,680 hindrance anymore. It has to be like you, you security teams and developers or whatever. They 210 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,880 need to work together and to figure this stuff out because this is, this is the world you're living 211 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,360 in now. There's not, there's not a choice really, if you want to do this right to sit in, 212 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:51,780 these silos and everyone is playing gatekeeper to everyone else. There really needs to be 213 00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:57,240 fluidity is, is kind of the, the key. Yep. Well, yeah. And I mean, I think of security, 214 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,860 not being the gatekeeper, this is reminding me, Rita, of that conversation we were having with, 215 00:21:01,860 --> 00:21:08,400 with Fint and Ryan, also of Gartner and, you know, asking him about during the pandemic, 216 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:14,640 how he's, he's seen sort of, you know, a bifurcation of what's happening with people's 217 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,740 digital transformation efforts. You know, some folks who've just kind of had pet projects and 218 00:21:20,060 --> 00:21:25,300 centers of excellence, but not really anything that's, that's meaningful change. Those are all 219 00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:31,100 getting shut down. And then folks who have been making progress are actually accelerating because 220 00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:36,680 now they're able to see how, Oh, we pull in this, this thing that was maybe going to take six months 221 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:42,500 and we try to get it done in the next, you know, six weeks. Yeah. We're going to realize those benefits 222 00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:48,460 faster and we need that now. And so, you know, when we pressed him on like, okay, well, that's, 223 00:21:48,460 --> 00:21:52,840 that's interesting. That makes sense. Tell us more about the people who've been doing the right 224 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:58,540 things. And the first thing he said was the people who have been, have made progress are the ones that 225 00:21:58,540 --> 00:22:07,580 engaged security teams early and often, and, and worked with them to guys point that, that you were, 226 00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:12,560 you know, recapping Derek is that, you know, they can't be a blocker. Security can't be a blocker. 227 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:18,880 You need to engage security early and often, and then you really pave the way for being able to make 228 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,200 more change. And that's where that's, those are the folks that are doubling down and, uh, and reaping 229 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:28,680 some benefits. Um, if you can, if you can say that at all in these times, just to, to kind of jump off 230 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:35,940 that product thinking, um, also showed up in the report that I was looking at, uh, which is 231 00:22:35,940 --> 00:22:43,700 application motivation should be business centric, continuous, and multi-platform. And this one is 232 00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:51,660 from, I'm going to probably butcher these names, but, um, written by Thomas Klenect and Stefan van der 233 00:22:51,660 --> 00:23:00,440 Zeiden. Uh, I believe that is correct. Yeah. Yeah. The Gartner titles, they really know how to pack a 234 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:07,940 mouthful, uh, into those, into those titles. But, um, it's like, I think they really figured out that 235 00:23:07,940 --> 00:23:14,280 like most people like don't really read past the title or past the first page bullet. So they've 236 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:20,160 structured their reports in this way where it's like, if you just read the title, you kind of actually have 237 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:25,520 80% of the point of the entire report. Like they're really just telling you like, this is how you should 238 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:32,080 do it. Um, and if you're willing to actually read the next page, you'll get a little bit more detail 239 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,580 and to read the whole report, then you're like now an expert. They're like newspaper editors without the 240 00:23:36,580 --> 00:23:42,660 space constraint. Right. They got a little, and they can put in some of their, their graphics and, 241 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:50,420 you know, this one like also touched on that, that kind of, that product mindset, um, and, and the team 242 00:23:50,420 --> 00:23:55,420 structure, because one of the things when you, when you tease out the, you know, it should be 243 00:23:55,420 --> 00:24:02,560 continuous. They, they, they sort of advocate for the creation of a modernization team. And I think 244 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:09,260 this really lies in the face of a lot of convention, which is that app modernization. Um, and this is in the 245 00:24:09,260 --> 00:24:16,420 report as well, where they talk about how past approaches to modernization have really failed 246 00:24:16,420 --> 00:24:23,940 in so many ways for a couple of reasons. One is they get treated as a project. Um, and so if, 247 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:29,960 if they haven't properly scoped the project, then, you know, they get into it and then they don't, 248 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,740 they don't get the outcomes that they're looking for. Um, they also talk about them failing because 249 00:24:35,740 --> 00:24:41,880 what I call the boil the ocean effects, where they're trying to take almost like a, an infrastructure 250 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:47,500 or platform up approach to modernization, where it's like, we're going to sweep across and we're 251 00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:53,140 going to do everything that's running on this particular platform, right? Like, you know, 252 00:24:53,140 --> 00:24:58,940 this particular, uh, web server, all of those are going to get updated and it's a boil the ocean 253 00:24:58,940 --> 00:25:05,700 approach. And, you know, they're almost inevitably going to run out of money and resources, but they 254 00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:10,700 haven't then shown any value to the business. Everyone's just like, okay, great. You swapped 255 00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:16,060 out some stuff and, you know, you made, you know, you took away time from delivering new features. 256 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,400 No one's really happy with it. So then that gets to the last point, which is that 257 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:28,320 the modernization really needs to be driven around what is the business outcome? What is the capability 258 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:35,520 that you're trying to add that some kind of tech debt is in the way of being able to deliver? 259 00:25:35,740 --> 00:25:41,380 And then you focus your whole modernization effort. Instead of looking broadly, you're focusing it on, 260 00:25:41,540 --> 00:25:46,620 ah, okay. In order to be able, like, here's a classic example is, you know, we want to be able 261 00:25:46,620 --> 00:25:53,160 to do some cool machine learning, blah, blah, blah, on some of the data from this application. 262 00:25:53,960 --> 00:26:00,020 And it's like, well, great. Then you kind of need to really rethink how the data from this 263 00:26:00,020 --> 00:26:05,360 application is going to be able to flow through a machine learning image, uh, uh, sorry, machine 264 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:12,920 learning, um, uh, you know, algorithm. And that is going to require probably modernizing and teasing 265 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,600 apart parts of this application, particularly if it's a big monolithic application. 266 00:26:16,620 --> 00:26:22,360 You know, supporting a lot of other functions. So classic example of, all right, we know, we now 267 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:28,280 have a North star, which is we want to get to the point where we can add in, uh, you know, uh, 268 00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:33,820 being able to call out to some machine learning API, you know, that some cloud provider has, or 269 00:26:33,820 --> 00:26:39,080 adding some virtual agent, right? So there's a chat bot or something, right? Something that the 270 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:44,700 business actually wants. And then you just map out everything that you need to modernize 271 00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:49,220 in order to get to that point. And you don't modernize any more than that. So I thought that 272 00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:56,280 that was a really interesting, um, you know, sort of approach and, and thinking. Um, but the other 273 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:02,080 thing that, that idea of like, Hey, don't treat it like a project. To me, anytime you kind of like, 274 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:08,960 you folks are calling out the project approach to me, the other side of that coin is having 275 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:16,600 a product approach. So there's actually a great diagram in the report, uh, that, that sort of 276 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:26,100 illustrates three layers of, uh, let me see if it's, yeah, sort of three layers of, of how teams are 277 00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:35,660 organized, um, across modernization platforms and product, the actual software development. And, and 278 00:27:35,660 --> 00:27:40,340 so to me that, you know, they're, they're kind of, it looks like this is maybe some graphic that was 279 00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:46,620 developed that supports a lot of different research. Cause there's a big, big red circle around the 280 00:27:46,620 --> 00:27:53,600 modernization team. And it, it resonated with me immediately. Cause I think I was fresh off of 281 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:59,520 learning about how this, this European banking customer that, that we'd been working with had 282 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:05,700 wanted to do some really large scale modernization and they, they needed some help, but they, they, 283 00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:11,480 they embraced this notion of we're going to need a team that's doing this and basically going from 284 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:19,240 product team to product team, helping them do whatever refactoring was necessary. And they were 285 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:26,880 really the in-house experts on modernization, uh, cause that expertise can then be brought again and 286 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,440 again and again. And that helps you do this continuously, right? If you want something to 287 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:36,820 get done, you make it someone's job. But what was interesting was under the cover, they, to get this 288 00:28:36,820 --> 00:28:45,580 sort of team off the ground, they were bringing in, um, uh, Tonsu, uh, or sorry, VMware Pivotal Labs and 289 00:28:45,580 --> 00:28:50,500 the, the sort of the app modernization specialists there. They knew they needed to scale it over time. 290 00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:56,900 So they were also bringing in, uh, Cognizant. Uh, so, you know, a large SI partner, but there were 291 00:28:56,900 --> 00:29:03,220 also people who were from, you know, a staff staffers from the bank who were on this team. And one thing 292 00:29:03,220 --> 00:29:10,080 that they, they learned to your point about kind of pride and identity Rita was that they, they had to 293 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:17,480 give this modernization team, uh, its own little brand, um, and, and name so that every time they 294 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:23,680 went in and engaged with a new, uh, a new, you know, software team that was building a different 295 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,500 app that they were like, okay, we're going to help you do some modernization. There wasn't kind of 296 00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:32,160 confusion about like, well, what do they say? And what do they say? And who are the people who work 297 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,700 here? It's like, Nope, we're a team. We've got a team. You're engaging the blah, blah, blah team. 298 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:45,120 And once they did that, they were able to actually move a lot faster and help a lot more teams. But 299 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:52,940 the, the meta sort of observation was they embraced this continuous approach and they made it someone's 300 00:29:52,940 --> 00:29:57,660 job and they, you know, they were able to supplement. If you're, you're starting that practice, 301 00:29:57,660 --> 00:30:02,840 know that there is a way to, you know, you don't have to form this team and hire all those people 302 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:09,640 from day one, you can form that team and you can bring in, you know, uh, uh, help from, 303 00:30:09,740 --> 00:30:16,140 from consultants and whatnot to kind of help get it off the ground and over time evolve it. Uh, but 304 00:30:16,140 --> 00:30:23,100 anyway, it's, uh, I, I love this report. I think it's a great one. I referred to it, uh, in a couple 305 00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:31,340 places in the app modernization 101 guide that is on intersect. Um, and, uh, I think it's, I think 306 00:30:31,340 --> 00:30:37,980 it's a must read for, for anyone who's looking at modernization efforts. Um, so highly recommended. 307 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:43,080 You know, one of the things that stuck about that stuck out for me in that report as well is, um, 308 00:30:43,620 --> 00:30:49,760 thinking about modernizing business capabilities as opposed to apps. So starting, they really espoused 309 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:56,300 this, uh, outside in thinking, right. And once you take on this outside in thinking and business 310 00:30:56,300 --> 00:31:02,720 value thinking, then this, this concept of, of, uh, uh, business capabilities or modernizing business 311 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,960 capabilities makes more sense. And then they talk about managing, managing those business capabilities, 312 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:13,040 right. As products and services and, um, you know, for their whole full, their, their, their full 313 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:20,520 life cycle. So, yeah. And I, I will acknowledge that around the same time, cause this, this report 314 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:28,460 or, or this update of the report, um, was published on the 15th of August in 2019. And I think it's 315 00:31:28,460 --> 00:31:35,820 even in the same month, uh, Gart or Forrester also came out with a report about modernization. I think it 316 00:31:35,820 --> 00:31:42,020 was like modernized core apps for the cloud. Um, I think that's one of the, the Bartoletti 317 00:31:42,020 --> 00:31:47,740 and John, John Reimer, uh, collaborations. So I was reading both of these right around the same time. 318 00:31:47,740 --> 00:31:53,560 And what's interesting is, you know, that they've got a different case for modernization in the 319 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,980 Forrester report. And in, in some ways, at first glance, you might say that there's like 320 00:31:57,980 --> 00:32:06,460 these, these two pieces of guidance are, are in conflict because, uh, Gartner is strongly advocating 321 00:32:06,460 --> 00:32:12,060 for like, you need to have that business outcome, that business capability in mind. And then you 322 00:32:12,060 --> 00:32:18,180 touch whatever apps are, are needed in order to deliver that capability. And in the Forrester 323 00:32:18,180 --> 00:32:23,060 report, they also kind of look at things and say, you know, some quick wins and benefits to be gained 324 00:32:23,060 --> 00:32:31,240 from steps like containerization. And so I think that sort of speaks to maybe more of the, the, 325 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:37,740 the operational, the I and O side of things where you're probably going to get some I and O benefits 326 00:32:37,740 --> 00:32:43,360 from those types of, you know, Hey, let's just try to containerize more of our applications. 327 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:50,720 They're quick wins, but I think there's, I don't think that that approach is not valid. I just think 328 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,840 that it's interesting to put them side by side and recognize like, these are two different approaches 329 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,240 that are going to yield some, you know, depending on where you focus is where you're going to get 330 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:05,840 your, your outcome. So depending on who's, who's driving the bus, who's really, um, calling the 331 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,000 shots of like, this is what we want to get out of it. Are we trying to get some operational benefits? 332 00:33:10,340 --> 00:33:15,760 Great. We can get some quick wins over here. Um, are we, but we have to try to keep that in mind 333 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,540 that like, don't, don't boil the ocean, right? Like, cause you'll, you'll just get bogged down. 334 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,000 If it's really like, can we get some business capability out of it, then you're probably going 335 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:25,960 to take a different tack. 336 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,480 Yeah. I think, I mean, there are people who would argue that, you know, containerization, 337 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,540 let's say is a, which by the way, is a great segue to the, uh, report that I'm talking about, 338 00:33:35,580 --> 00:33:40,380 but there, I think there are people that would argue that containerization is maybe step one, 339 00:33:40,380 --> 00:33:45,120 or, you know, some early step in any modernization effort, if you're going to modernize technology 340 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:52,720 along with processes more broadly, but right. I mean, it is, if that's all you do, that's, 341 00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:57,980 it's, it's, it's, it's not going to be the end of, it's not going to modernize a whole lot 342 00:33:57,980 --> 00:34:01,340 in the end. Like you said, it's a quick win. You're going to get some, some efficiency benefits. 343 00:34:01,340 --> 00:34:07,260 Maybe there's going to be some of that, but it's, it's, it's such a baby step along the way. 344 00:34:07,300 --> 00:34:11,780 I think that you really need to embrace the, it seems like you really need to embrace the whole 345 00:34:11,780 --> 00:34:16,740 modernization. And then I get up to the business level, because again, like it seems like so much 346 00:34:16,740 --> 00:34:23,000 of what ends up, what ends up filtering down to the application level and to the IT, some of the 347 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:29,140 IT processes is, you know, the, the organization's culture overall. So, I mean, a very process driven, 348 00:34:29,140 --> 00:34:34,740 like, you know, heavily regulated, um, you know, whatever industry, like, I mean, I think when that 349 00:34:34,740 --> 00:34:40,040 starts boiling down into the application level, then, you know, all the containerization in the world 350 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:45,960 isn't going to change the fact that you can still have very slow processes and very, um, you know, 351 00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:50,660 honestly kind of, you know, maybe just unhappy people at the end of the day. So. 352 00:34:50,660 --> 00:34:55,720 Yeah. It's, it's, it's interesting to think. And like, it depends, I think that comes back to that 353 00:34:55,720 --> 00:35:02,580 collaboration point, which is if your, your IO teams and your, your line of business folks, 354 00:35:02,580 --> 00:35:07,560 if they're collaborating well, I think there's a higher likelihood that that modernization can 355 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:13,040 really focus on those business outcomes. If I know is really, really, truly working in a silo, 356 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:18,420 then they can get some of those quick, quick wins. They can, they can, you know, do things like 357 00:35:18,420 --> 00:35:24,680 containerization. But, um, it's really also, to me, seems like that's probably symptomatic that they're, 358 00:35:25,020 --> 00:35:30,800 they're heavily siloed from their business counterparts because if they're spending their 359 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:36,640 efforts on that, they're not really focused on the business outcomes. Yeah. 360 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,780 I always go back to the early days of cloud computing where, you know, the real benefit of Amazon web 361 00:35:41,780 --> 00:35:46,940 services, when it, when it launched, I mean, God, decade and a half ago now was, you know, one of the 362 00:35:46,940 --> 00:35:51,580 big pictures was you don't need to wait to provision a server anymore. Right. So, so, so that was, 363 00:35:51,780 --> 00:35:55,740 that was the big hole. That was a big holdup. And that was what, you know, how people viewed, 364 00:35:55,740 --> 00:36:02,960 I think the I and O teams a lot. And, and, and so now if containerization is only solving a slightly 365 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:08,860 more modern version of that problem, it just seems like it's, you know, that's not going to be, 366 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,300 I know you said that that's, that's not a business, um, changing the shift probably. 367 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:20,580 Yeah. I mean, to that, to Dormain's last comment, I mean, again, Charlie talks about, uh, siloed 368 00:36:20,580 --> 00:36:26,800 efficiency metrics, right? How that those are not useful and talks about rather talks about, uh, 369 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:32,460 metrics that are aligned to, or KPIs aligned to business objectives. And that's how, you know, 370 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:38,560 I know it can show its value. Oh, Rita, you just, you know, my trigger buttons when you bring up 371 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:48,060 metrics. All right. Well, on that note, uh, there, you're saying that this, this, this tees up a 372 00:36:48,060 --> 00:36:55,280 segue to, uh, the report that you dug into. Yes. And another, uh, really inspiring headline on this 373 00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:01,220 one is the best practices to enable continuous delivery with containers and DevOps. Although it 374 00:37:01,220 --> 00:37:11,880 hit a lot of buzzwords, so that's good. Um, but yeah, best practice, best practices is one of 375 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:18,480 those buzzwords. Who doesn't want like some best practices? Oh, for sure. You know, but, but yeah, 376 00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:23,080 the thing that stuck out, and then I think the big thing that stuck out to me was, is that, I mean, 377 00:37:23,100 --> 00:37:28,400 it's kind of less about continuous delivery as in like how to set up your CICD pipelines and more about, 378 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,780 and more about just this process of, again, it's a lot of collaboration. And the thing that really 379 00:37:33,780 --> 00:37:40,380 stuck out to me was viewing containers as, as not like developers pushing new technology and I know, 380 00:37:40,540 --> 00:37:47,520 but rather as a type of technology that can help facilitate collaboration that can help both sides 381 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:55,100 meet their, meet their own goals and also shared objectives. So, I mean, and it was really this idea 382 00:37:55,100 --> 00:38:00,580 of like, you know, I know containers will help, I know if they have some sort of established 383 00:38:00,580 --> 00:38:04,100 maturity around automation, they're going to help them take, it's going to help containers can help 384 00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:09,500 them take that to the next level. I mean, it's going to help, you know, as everyone gets comfortable 385 00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:14,220 working with this new, because the other thing they say is by 2023, you know, their prediction is 386 00:38:14,220 --> 00:38:19,880 that 70% of apps deployed in the cloud will use containers as a packaging mechanism. So if that's 387 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,020 accurate, I don't know if that's existing apps or new apps or whatever the, you know, 388 00:38:23,020 --> 00:38:27,860 what apps we're talking about, but that's a significant number. And right. So you need to 389 00:38:27,860 --> 00:38:31,460 start thinking about this as it's just, I think the whole thing is you need to start thinking about 390 00:38:31,460 --> 00:38:36,940 containers, not as, not as a replacement for VM, not as this thing that developers like to work in 391 00:38:36,940 --> 00:38:42,620 that that's insecure or whatever. And more as this, more as a, frankly, a technology that is going to 392 00:38:42,620 --> 00:38:46,980 enable you to do some of these bigger picture things that you want to do once everyone gets on board 393 00:38:46,980 --> 00:38:50,500 and their processes in place. And then the report goes on to layout, you know, how would you lay, 394 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,560 how would you build a product team? How would you build a platform? How would you build a DevOps team? 395 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,980 How do you build a platform ops team? And, well, you know, depending on the maturity of the 396 00:38:57,980 --> 00:39:03,140 organization, you might have two teams, you might have dev and platform ops, you might have dev and 397 00:39:03,140 --> 00:39:08,240 DevOps and platform ops, it really all depends. And they might have slightly different roles. And then I 398 00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:13,160 know is kind of hanging out still maybe managing infrastructure and networking and kind of the 399 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,220 underlying stuff that, that all this, that your Kubernetes and all your container 400 00:39:17,220 --> 00:39:23,340 orchestration, all your containerized components are running on top of. But yeah, it was, you know, 401 00:39:23,380 --> 00:39:28,340 again, it was just this idea of like, think of taking a technology and how do you utilize that 402 00:39:28,340 --> 00:39:34,760 technology as, as something that's going to help build and help you reach bigger goals. So again, 403 00:39:34,820 --> 00:39:41,320 containers, great step one. And, you know, they can be very useful for doing, and I think for a VMware 404 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:47,180 audience too, like, frankly, you know, the idea that, that people like to think about containers as, 405 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:52,380 as a, as a, as a replacement for a virtual machine, right, it's just not probably the right way, 406 00:39:52,380 --> 00:39:56,820 the right way to think about it at all. And if people are still viewing in that way, it's, 407 00:39:57,260 --> 00:39:59,520 that needs to be shaken out of their head. 408 00:39:59,660 --> 00:40:02,420 Yeah. I mean, I think that's a great point of like, 409 00:40:02,660 --> 00:40:11,340 use this as an opportunity to re-evaluate your team structure and those processes, right? The whole, 410 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:18,480 like the, the holy trinity of people, process and tech, like containers are a technology, but, 411 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:24,780 you know, when not paired with process changes or team structure changes, like you're really just 412 00:40:24,780 --> 00:40:29,040 kind of doing the same thing, but with a slightly different format. 413 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:34,120 I mean, the key, the key, the, it seems like the crux of this, of the, the, the, the nugget of this is that 414 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:41,060 it's all about continuous, continuous delivery, right? As the holy grail, if you will. And then how do 415 00:40:41,060 --> 00:40:44,400 DevOps and containers enable that holy grail? 416 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:45,860 Yeah, but I think it's more continuous. 417 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,940 Yeah, I mean, continue, but it's, it's, I mean, I write it kind of more as it's being about continuous 418 00:40:50,940 --> 00:40:54,240 everything in the sense that. 419 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,880 Continuous modernization, right? Like, modernization is to be continuous. 420 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:04,640 In the sense that like, you know, security, right? I mean, one, you know, containers have 421 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,860 pros and cons in security level, right? But one of them, you know, one of the things that they 422 00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:12,320 require, if you're going to do it right, is continuously upgrading the components of 423 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,380 the application components, continuously upgrading the host OS, continuously, you get the, the automation 424 00:41:17,380 --> 00:41:23,060 and the upgrades and everything has to be coming and your components are going to be updating. 425 00:41:23,540 --> 00:41:26,380 You know, if you're using, if you're using a container, that's real. Like if you're building 426 00:41:26,380 --> 00:41:31,480 an application that's running across multiple containers using however many open source 427 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:36,240 projects, right? I mean, there's so much change happening at all those levels that if you're 428 00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:41,200 not plugged in and haven't figured out a way to automate the upgrades and patches and all 429 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,020 this, like you, you, you fall behind real quickly. 430 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,180 I think that's part of it. 431 00:41:45,980 --> 00:41:50,320 I was waiting for you to say automation. I feel like we've come full circle, right? Like here we are 432 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,380 talking about automation and collaboration again. 433 00:41:53,180 --> 00:41:59,640 Yeah, this is, this is probably a great place to tie it off. We've come full circle. As you said, 434 00:42:00,220 --> 00:42:05,680 that's, that's when you tie the bow, uh, you know, we'll put the links to each of these three 435 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:11,720 reports. Um, you know, I'm a classroom learner, so I like listening to people gab about stuff and 436 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:16,860 present things. Um, but every now and then you gotta, you gotta hit the books and actually read it. So 437 00:42:16,860 --> 00:42:23,760 we'll include the links, um, as well as links to some of the other, uh, episodes and, uh, and talks 438 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:30,780 that we referred to that, that kind of came to mind as we were all, all reading these. So anyway, 439 00:42:30,780 --> 00:42:37,180 thanks, uh, Rita and Derek for joining and sharing your, your insights in this kind of, uh, almost 440 00:42:37,180 --> 00:42:44,960 like book report style. Thanks. That was really fun. Thanks for having me. Yeah. All right. Thank you. 441 00:43:00,780 --> 00:43:30,760 Thank you.