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Now, guest, do you work from home regularly?

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I work from home probably about half the time, I think.

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Yeah?

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Yeah, a little bit more often these days like, well, a lot of other people.

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And I think maybe half of, I think you are perhaps the person who has been a guest on this podcast the most.

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And do you think on each of those episodes, what do you think the chances are that you're working from home at that time?

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Well, I'd guess about 50-50.

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I remember very viscerally a few in-person sessions that we've had together.

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Those are lovely.

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And I also remember a handful of the remote ones.

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So I'll go with 50-50 and kind of play the odds there.

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I think visceral is an apt discussion of a newly named Tanzu Talk in person.

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It's very visceral.

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Got the alliteration.

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So that's good.

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Now, do you think visceral, is that Latin?

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I think it probably is.

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If something is not Latin, it seems like it's obviously from some other language tree.

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That seems like it's got some Latin-ish roots to it.

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Yeah, I was, what was I, I was, oh, we were walking by the zoo the other day, back when you could walk around, not be 1.5 meters from other living humans.

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And, uh, there was a picture of an elephant in utero.

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And so I told my son, look, there's an elephant in utero, which I'm going to be honest with, with y'all in the listeners, I think was photoshopped because it looked like a pretty fully formed elephant that was like walking around, but whatever.

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And, uh, I, uh, my son, of course, asked what in utero means.

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So I tried to give my layman's, you know, uh, explanation that it's, it's in a womb and, uh, you know, going to be born sometime.

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And, uh, and then I went on this whole, like, I was in kind of a, uh, a bad mood that morning.

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And I went on this whole, like, uh, sort of Latin-splaining about how lots of words are based on Latin and where Latin is from and how it evolved.

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And, like, he asked why it became the language of science.

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And I, and I came up with a theory.

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I think it's just because that's what everything was written in at the time.

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And, uh, maybe French wasn't the popular way to do it.

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I get confused about that.

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But, man, it was, I even thinking about it now, despite my mood this morning, at the end of this, like,

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uh, explanation, I was like, wow, I'm having a lot of fun.

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This is nice talking about Latin, uh, a language that I don't know.

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So, uh, I just like to take this time to think Latin.

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I can't wait for your next e-book.

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That's right.

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The origins of digital transformation in Latin.

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Now in Latin.

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Yeah.

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You know, a lot of people don't realize that Heraclitus and Marcus Aurelius had a lot to say about transformation.

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You know, just one last comment there.

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You know, Marcus Aurelius gets a lot of credit nowadays, as he should.

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He's got a lot of good writing there.

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But a lot of people forget that the first chapter is all about the Greek gods and sort of just, like, full-on praising for them.

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Which I often wonder, is he just sort of pandering to everyone?

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Or is he genuinely like, you know, I know what happens if you don't, like, give respect to the gods.

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You get smote.

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And so he's doing it.

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It's a very, it's always an interesting thought exercise to think about, like, all these wise Roman and Greek people.

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Like, were they, did they really think that, like, there were gods who were, you know, changing into swans and things like that?

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Or did they just think that was a fun story?

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It's hard to say.

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Indeed.

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Why don't you introduce yourself, guest?

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Yeah.

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I am Jared Ruckel, which I think is, there's not a lot of Latin in there.

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There's some German, maybe, some Hebrew.

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And I am now a, something that's called a group product line marketing manager at VMware.

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So I've been at Pivotal for, I think, three and a half years, maybe, and now going on month three at VMware.

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Yeah.

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Group line manager.

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I like that.

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Or I got that mixed up.

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Yeah, it's just what I wanted to be when I grew up.

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So childhood wish, dream, fulfilled.

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Yeah.

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It is nice.

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Well, speaking of working at home, you know, a lot of, I think, I think if you're listening to this, there's probably a chance you understand about flights being, you know, canceled.

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All in-person gatherings here in the, here in the Netherlands.

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I think you're, they just, let's see, today is Monday.

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And they, they shut down all the restaurants and the schools and the cafes.

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Also, there was a hilarious scene.

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There's something, you know, if you don't know what this is, you can go look it up.

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There's something called a coffee shop here in Amsterdam.

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And I didn't know this was happening, but they shut those down at 6 p.m. last night indefinite.

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Well, until April 6th.

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And so there were, there were mobs of people outside of those doors.

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But, totally unrelated to that last comment, we've got a great conference coming up on this week, on March 19th.

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Did I get that right?

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On Thursday.

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And it's our spring live conference.

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Now, Richard, you probably know whose idea it was to have this be a 24-hour conference, because I think that is perhaps the most awesome idea of this year so far.

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Maybe the most deadly.

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We will find out.

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But it's going to be a 24-hour, basically, software development, a little bit of DevOps, some Kubernetes.

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About 15 minutes from me on, I don't think there'll be any Latin involved, but just kind of going over some things.

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We'll have some tons doing there.

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It's going to be chock full across the globe called Spring Live.

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And I'll put a link to it in the show notes so that you can get to it.

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But I think if you search for Spring Live, you can probably find it and sign up for it.

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Yeah, it should be great.

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Yeah, it was our boss, Ian Andrews, idea to have kind of a replacement conference.

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And then myself and a few others kind of swarmed on what that would look like.

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And somehow, in like three days, we came up with the conference, had 40 speakers.

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And, you know, I think it's pretty cool that we could try to fill this gap as quickly as we did.

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And I guess I didn't mention that it's all online.

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That's sort of the point of it.

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It is.

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That you can attend it wherever you may be across the globe.

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I think maybe, I don't know, I'll have to see if we have budget for this.

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But if you can somehow prove that you stayed up for 24 hours and watched it, maybe I'll try to send you some stroopwafels or something.

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I don't know.

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Yeah, at least you'll get a call out on the next time you talk.

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That's right.

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I don't know what the deal with sending stuff to people is nowadays as far as health concerns.

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But I should be able to send you some kind of food.

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That would be fun.

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But I don't know how you're going to prove it.

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Maybe you have a, they don't call it stop motion, do they?

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What is it?

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Speed up?

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You got the slow-mo video.

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And then what's the other one that are on phones now?

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Yeah, I forget what that is.

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Where it's like a picture every 10 seconds or something.

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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Maybe you take one of those.

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But I'm not really sure I would watch all of it to verify.

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Because that would be exciting.

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But do you, across the two of you, let's give people one tip for working from home.

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How about we start with you, Jared?

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One tip from working from home.

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You know, I think, yeah, I just kind of get back to caffeine.

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I had a little bit of a work from home victory today where I thought we were out of coffee filters.

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But I managed to root around and find a couple of spare ones so I can make a pot of coffee like usual.

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Yeah, so I feel like that's a good streak to get the day started.

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So make sure you've got some kind of coffee supply.

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If you can maybe walk to your local small coffee shop and do that safely, then that may be a good thing.

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Make sure you've got plenty of caffeine on hand.

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That's a good tip.

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I would not anticipate.

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I mean, if things go on, you might want to make sure you get the detergent out of some socks.

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And maybe those dress socks that you haven't had an excuse to use for a while because they're really thin, you could start using those.

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Yeah, I thought that maybe I could reuse the filter from yesterday, but that wasn't happening.

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So it was just kind of a nasty, nasty brown mess with stuff.

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So, yeah, thankfully, there were a couple that I was able to dig up.

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How about you, Richard?

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What's your one work at home tip for people?

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Yeah, I think some people would disagree, but I'm a no chores person.

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Like, you're working.

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So I've actually got recent validation from someone who used to give me grief about that.

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Now that they work from home, they understand.

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It's like, you know, it's easy to say, oh, let me just go put a quick load of laundry in or do some dishes or run and get the mail.

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And it's good to get outside, like move around.

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But I've kind of tried to treat my however many hours in my office or wherever I'm working as somewhat sacred so you don't accidentally blend your worlds.

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Some people may disagree, but I like keeping it separate.

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And then at five, walk out and go back to real life.

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Yeah, I think, you know, the other way, there's another version of that, which is make sure to take a lunch break.

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Or like, you know, the time that you wouldn't be working.

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Make sure not to.

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I mean, not if you don't work all day and pretend like you're working.

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But you know what I mean.

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No, I accidentally work more hours when I work from home.

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So it's good to stop and take lunch and things.

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So productive.

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Well, uh, my, my, my tip is, uh, I like, I, you know, I've worked at home a lot and I think you need to establish like two to three places where you work in the house, maybe even four.

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And, and the thing I've done over the years is I have a lot of power adapters plugged in everywhere.

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So I can just take my laptop and plug it in wherever I might be working.

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And, uh, I don't know.

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It gives you some variety because sometimes I feel like I want to sit in my bed and work.

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Sometimes I sit on the couch.

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Other times a desk.

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Who knows?

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I just go.

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I'm thinking of all your alternative spots.

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Like Coté in the bathtub, you know, on the roof, you know, under the car.

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Like just, I would love that.

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Under the car.

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Just whatever.

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I like that one.

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Just like, wait, is he hiding from somebody?

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No, just, uh, you know, it's shady.

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Now in your dream scenario, am I on one of those rolly things so I can come in and out?

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I think that's the only way that can work.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I think that's required.

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Okay.

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I like that.

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I'm going to look into that.

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Now, my first problem is going to be getting a car, but, uh, maybe I can just borrow one

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of them on the street.

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That's our next podcast.

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What is that whooshing sound?

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That's a lot of moving cars.

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That's right.

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Why, why, why, why, why is Coté's waist so flat right now?

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What happened?

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Is that a cat?

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Yeah.

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All kinds of things.

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Uh, and you see the joke is it's flat.

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Cause I got ran over not because, uh, I was dieting or going to CrossFit.

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Well, uh, you know, also if, if you're looking for something, uh, to read during your lunch

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break, I know you've already read, uh, Richard, probably Jared too, but there was a VMware came

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out with their state of Kubernetes survey, uh, which, which I think I forget the exact name.

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It surveys, uh, several, uh, organizations that are like a thousand people or more.

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So large organizations.

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And it has, you know, essentially momentum questions and blocker questions, and then also benefits

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questions around using Kubernetes and their organizations.

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And I have a little write-up that I did, uh, which, you know, was fantastic, I guess.

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Sure.

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And, uh, also, uh, Richard did a good, uh, let's call it a meta survey write-up over at

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InfoQ that is also about the CNCF report.

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And I think, was there a, uh, uh, the new stack report as well, but there's several surveys

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that, uh, that you wrote about there.

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And, you know, I think, I think the summary, uh, I forget who wrote the summary.

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Maybe it was you actually, you said the summary was more.

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That was me.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That was good.

214
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That was funny.

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But, uh, you know, I, I think, I think I'll, I'll call out one, one thing, which, um,

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I didn't really go over it in my, uh, my write-up very much, but I think one of the

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more interesting parts in the VMware one and interesting in that it's validating is, uh,

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just kind of the benefits that people have.

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And I was looking at this this morning and the first one, you know, it's, it's a choose

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all that apply, which is, is, you know, you got to like, kind of, that's why it doesn't

221
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add up to a hundred and adds up to a lot more if you add up to percentages.

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Uh, but it has improved resource utilization.

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Uh, let's see if we can have them punch up that phrase next time.

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Uh, which, which is to say, you know, I think that's a thing.

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That operations people are interested in, right?

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It's a sort of productivity of your infrastructure and making sure that you're both not overpaying

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and both not underusing something in some more efficient way of utilizing, using stuff.

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And then also, uh, coming in at 53%, just a 3% less than the 56% of improved resource utilization

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to be the Casey Kasem of bar charts here, uh, is shortened software development cycles.

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Otherwise known as, uh, you know, I, I, well, that means a couple of things.

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One, a bit more developer productivity, probably depending on how you look at it, but definitely

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giving you the ability to release more often and get more feedback, which I think is the,

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uh, the primary way to improve your software.

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And, uh, I think, I think those are good confirming things for why, uh, looking into a platform

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like Kubernetes is, uh, is interesting.

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It's always, it's always nice to know that, you know, the number one benefit wasn't like

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did something cool and it was very enjoyable.

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Although maybe we should ask that next time.

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Uh, that would be fun.

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How about, how about yourself, Richard?

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What, uh, what do you think was interesting in those surveys?

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Yeah, I've just, I've learned to really look at the, uh, the demographics right away in

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any of these, cause it's really easy to get a skewed perspective just because, I mean, even

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the CNCF survey was good, but two thirds of the people were from tech companies.

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So of course there's also going to be a certain amount of stuff.

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And what, I think a third or 40% or so were from big companies versus the state of Kubernetes

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one was a hundred percent thousand person or more companies.

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So all, all fine.

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But when I look at something, it's like 40% are using serverless.

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Is that really the case?

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And it's in the CNCF survey.

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Like, so I think people in cloud native, smaller companies, tech companies, sure.

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But they're also using containers like crazy.

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So to me, it was a, we're all building more stuff.

255
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Serverless isn't cannibalizing containers, which probably isn't cannibalizing VMs, which

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isn't like, we're all just building more things.

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But the big company stuff was interesting in the state of Kubernetes one.

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Like, look, a lot of people running a lot of clusters and connectivity is tricky and management

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is going to be tricky.

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Like we're going to find new problems now that people are doing this at bigger scale.

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That's all expected.

262
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But it'll be interesting to see how the survey looks next year.

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Indeed.

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Yeah.

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That's, that's the best with surveys is when they're, uh, you know, every year, if not

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every quarter, every quarter, I think the CNCF people do it like at least twice a year,

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if not more, if I remember.

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Yeah.

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They're getting good, uh, good trend lines.

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Cause they're actually able to see like, Hey, container usage was here.

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Now it's here.

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This was here.

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So it's nice.

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Cause service mesh was something I'd called out to the new stack and serverless stuff from

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O'Reilly, but service mesh is low.

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It's like 18% in production.

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So that's fine.

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But you expect a lot of people are reviewing it right now.

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And a lot of things like STO and envoy and those sort of technologies are getting baked

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into products.

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You expect to see that rise over the next few years, but it's good.

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They've got a baseline now asking about it.

283
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Yeah.

284
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Yeah.

285
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There'll probably be a lot more service mesh talk through this year.

286
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That, that, that would make sense.

287
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Well, uh, you know, as a side note there, speaking of, uh, being, being part of Tonsuland

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and VMware, I, I, as I'm sure you all have, have discovered, they have a lot of interesting

289
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research and surveys going on, which, uh, kind of bubbles up to the top.

290
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So it'll be fun to write some more analysis of that and talk about it.

291
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I love a good survey, all sorts of charts, cross tabs, things like that.

292
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As, as you were saying, right?

293
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Like the fun thing to do is, uh, kind of looking at demographics and sort of like understanding

294
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what it, what the context is from there.

295
00:15:55,900 --> 00:16:02,700
Well, also, uh, back to container land over in, uh, Amazon web services land in your neck

296
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of the woods.

297
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There's a, they have a new project for basically, uh, as always, Richard, you can explain to

298
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be something I think I barely understand, but basically it's a, it's a, it's a,

299
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it's a new framework they have for running containers just in VMware or on, uh, I guess on their

300
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bare metal install.

301
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So I assume it's, uh, if you're going for performance or you just want like, uh, I don't

302
00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:27,420
know, naked containers, is that an industry term?

303
00:16:27,780 --> 00:16:32,480
But, uh, is it, did I get that basically right with what bottleneck bottle rocket is?

304
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:33,520
Yeah.

305
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,520
I mean, I think it's the, uh, so yeah, it is a, it's an OS it's meant for containers.

306
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,900
I think the shtick here is, and I need to dig into it more is also like the update process

307
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:46,640
instead of updating all the individual kind of packages made up of containers and OS you're

308
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kind of doing it at once.

309
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,420
So, I mean, there's, I think there's a different way of actually upgrading your environment.

310
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So it's meant to be a little more innovative.

311
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And I called this out in the news, not because this is, I don't know, I don't think everyone's

312
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going to run out and use it right away, but there's still a lot of innovation in this

313
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space.

314
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,340
As much as there's commoditization, as we think of containers and most of us want to

315
00:17:04,340 --> 00:17:08,240
keep moving back up to the app tier, there's still some really cool stuff that we saw with

316
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:08,980
VMware.

317
00:17:09,180 --> 00:17:13,720
We'll talk about in a little bit with native pods and what used to be project Pacific.

318
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,140
And like, there's some cool stuff still happening at the infrastructure layer, as much as we

319
00:17:18,140 --> 00:17:21,680
all keep keeping our eyes above, above that for value and developers.

320
00:17:21,980 --> 00:17:25,720
I like seeing that there's still some cool things happening at network and storage and compute.

321
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:32,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, as you were alluding to the, for people who care about this kind of

322
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:38,240
stuff, the, the, the, the, one of the more fascinating areas is how you do like just updating

323
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,940
the software and managing that kind of stuff, all that configuration management stuff.

324
00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:48,520
Well, as a good segue, just to briefly touch on to speaking of wanting to talk about stacks

325
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:54,200
and infrastructure and development stuff, the, the most recent RedMonk language ranking

326
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,980
comes out and this is programming language.

327
00:17:55,980 --> 00:17:57,700
So sadly, nothing about Latin.

328
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:06,180
But I think as always, Java was, was high up there as was JavaScript as always like there.

329
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:11,460
I think, I think the results they get are pretty, pretty consistent over time, which is, you

330
00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:12,820
know, fine, right?

331
00:18:12,820 --> 00:18:17,280
Like it allows you to make pretty solid decisions about the, the programming languages you might

332
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:17,940
be interested in.

333
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,280
And I wanted to ask you, uh, Richard and also Jared, what, what, uh, what's the deal

334
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,740
with Python always being up there?

335
00:18:24,740 --> 00:18:28,740
And I asked this completely self-servingly because I, I've always wanted to like learn

336
00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:29,460
Python better.

337
00:18:29,460 --> 00:18:34,860
And in fact, I've got this, uh, this book Python for kids, which I bought cause my son wanted

338
00:18:34,860 --> 00:18:36,460
to learn Python, but it's really for me.

339
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:37,880
I think it'll be at my level.

340
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:43,680
Uh, and, uh, I don't, I don't really understand my attraction to Python, but people seem to like

341
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:43,860
it.

342
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,020
It's like way up there.

343
00:18:45,020 --> 00:18:46,840
So what, uh, what are y'all two's thoughts?

344
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,520
Yeah.

345
00:18:48,540 --> 00:18:51,840
I mean, my son's learning it in, uh, whatever, what is he in seventh grade?

346
00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:52,860
That's their language.

347
00:18:52,940 --> 00:18:53,840
They're all doing programming.

348
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,340
And I just, it seems like it's a good education language.

349
00:18:56,340 --> 00:18:59,800
It's obviously a machine learning friendly language, which is why it seems like it keeps

350
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:00,400
rising up.

351
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,940
And then these rankings now is tied to Java for number two.

352
00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:08,520
So I think that seems to be some of it, the ML thing, the education angle, and it, you

353
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:09,540
know, it's had some nice durability.

354
00:19:09,780 --> 00:19:13,820
So, you know, in their language rankings to see any sort of movement in the top 10 is weird.

355
00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:16,700
So seeing Python move up, see typescript moved in.

356
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,660
That's, uh, it's interesting to see some, some changes there.

357
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:20,420
Yeah.

358
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:21,680
Yeah.

359
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:28,020
My son is also, uh, taking a online Python class starting today with all the time to fill

360
00:19:28,020 --> 00:19:29,020
now that there's no school.

361
00:19:29,020 --> 00:19:31,920
So definitely there's a big, big kid thing there.

362
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,480
Um, the machine learning thing, it's also pretty good for data science and stuff.

363
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:36,080
I think, right.

364
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:39,720
I hear R and Python talked about in the same circle.

365
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,280
So it's, you know, it seems like it's got this really versatile history of, you know,

366
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:45,400
great for beginners.

367
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,840
And then also great for these, you know, more pervasive use cases that we're seeing everywhere.

368
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:50,920
Definitely.

369
00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:51,740
Yeah.

370
00:19:52,860 --> 00:19:53,340
Interesting.

371
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:58,440
Well, speaking of pervasive use cases, that, that brings us to you, Jared.

372
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:04,520
Now we like to, we like to come to you when we have a, uh, uh, a large announcement in

373
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,300
the, uh, in, you know, as it used to be in the pivotal world, in the Tanzu world.

374
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:14,200
And sure enough, last week we had a, uh, we, we, we alluded to this, I think in the last

375
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:20,120
episode, but there was a, uh, large, uh, kind of overview of VMware's application modernization

376
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:26,960
portfolio and, uh, the new version of, uh, vSphere and how, uh, we have Kubernetes baked

377
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,660
into that and available with it, all sorts of things.

378
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:35,280
But, but, uh, we got, we have you on to kind of help us go through all of that, understand

379
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,840
what the things are and why they're exciting.

380
00:20:38,540 --> 00:20:44,120
Now with my vague, I'm waving my hands here in case you can't see, but with, with my, my

381
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:50,060
hand wavy introduction there, Jared, how, how do you, how, how can you like, how do we wrap

382
00:20:50,060 --> 00:20:50,880
our heads around this?

383
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,840
We got a list of, you know, a punch list of things, but like, what's, what's the, uh, the

384
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,220
kind of like, look at that big thing on the shelf sort of thing.

385
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,200
Like what, what do we got going on here from a big picture layer?

386
00:21:02,540 --> 00:21:04,420
Yeah, that's a, that's a good place to start.

387
00:21:04,420 --> 00:21:09,580
I think if you, maybe sometimes, sometimes it makes sense to go back in history a little

388
00:21:09,580 --> 00:21:09,880
bit.

389
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,740
I mean, clearly, you know, VMware, uh, led the virtualization, you know, revolution, you know,

390
00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:18,800
in, in recent years and, uh, that's, that's great.

391
00:21:18,940 --> 00:21:23,700
Uh, but obviously there's more, uh, more to be done there, more opportunities to go try and

392
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:28,680
take down and all this application stuff has been, uh, you know, really on the forefront of

393
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:33,160
everybody's mind for the last decade or so with public cloud things and all these different

394
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:34,820
application services and so on.

395
00:21:34,820 --> 00:21:40,980
And so I think with all the tons of stuff from VMware is a really nice, easy to understand,

396
00:21:40,980 --> 00:21:46,700
you know, portfolio of services that, uh, you can use to, you know, build better applications,

397
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,300
harness all the power of, you know, Kubernetes and containers and all that kind of stuff.

398
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,820
And, and think about doing it on, uh, on any cloud that you would want.

399
00:21:54,820 --> 00:22:01,720
So kind of any cloud, any, any device, any application, this is really VMware's entree into that in

400
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:07,100
a way that's, uh, curated, you know, selected and kind of ready for, you know, larger, larger

401
00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:12,500
companies to, to use, to tackle their, you know, most pressing, you know, digital transformation

402
00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:16,920
kind of initiatives, whether it's at the application level or at the infrastructure level.

403
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,340
And so sometimes when you're reinventing the company like that, it, it's just a heck of

404
00:22:21,340 --> 00:22:24,680
a lot easier to introduce a new brand and kind of call everything that.

405
00:22:26,780 --> 00:22:30,840
Yeah, it is, you know, one of the, one of the things, uh, uh, I think, I think we've been

406
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:37,660
in, in VM world for several months now is, uh, it's kind of fun to be like, uh, very firmly

407
00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:41,820
connected to like everything, like, like, like, as you were saying, there's this kind of like,

408
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:50,220
uh, like larger amount of, of products and solutions, if you will, to use enterprise talk

409
00:22:50,220 --> 00:22:54,600
that, uh, all the stuff we've been working on for years now kind of fits in and is part

410
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:54,900
of it.

411
00:22:55,260 --> 00:22:59,900
And, uh, you know, it reminds me of my analyst days when I used to just like track all sorts

412
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:01,900
of things, fun stuff.

413
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:02,920
Yeah.

414
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,480
So, I mean, where does it start, Jared?

415
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:11,680
Like, is there a, you know, I know the sort of VCF and Vsphere stuff isn't technically part

416
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,860
of Tanzu, but do you think the story kind of starts there?

417
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,960
I mean, how do you kind of frame where, where the Tanzu stuff kind of the foundation of it

418
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:18,160
is?

419
00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:22,120
Yeah, I think it probably, you know, when people think about, you know, VMware historically,

420
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:27,180
it's been a infrastructure company and, you know, where all the public cloud started

421
00:23:27,180 --> 00:23:30,240
was in, you know, elastic compute network and storage.

422
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:36,440
So I think the, the, the VCF, the V cloud foundation stuff is really kind of the evolution

423
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:42,000
of the infrastructure bits with really kind of a rock solid, you know, story that's integrated

424
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,940
for those, you know, core infrastructure elements, um, with, you know, Kubernetes being a part

425
00:23:46,940 --> 00:23:47,540
of that mix.

426
00:23:47,540 --> 00:23:52,960
So if you think about what the operation folks can do with their usual Vsphere upgrades, I

427
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,180
think Vsphere six is what has, uh, was the recent version.

428
00:23:56,260 --> 00:24:00,240
You know, we've got Vsphere seven, there's just a regular cadence about how people are

429
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,960
thinking about running VMware in their data center.

430
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,260
There's a point upgrades that they'll do from different successive versions of VMware, but

431
00:24:07,260 --> 00:24:11,900
or from Vsphere rather, but this is a kind of a big leap because of how, you know, Kubernetes

432
00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:16,020
is baked in to, to that, that, uh, that environment.

433
00:24:16,580 --> 00:24:16,980
Yeah.

434
00:24:17,020 --> 00:24:18,520
I'm fairly, fairly significantly, right?

435
00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:22,020
I mean, VCF is the combo of what VsAN, NSX and Vsphere.

436
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:22,500
Is that right?

437
00:24:23,260 --> 00:24:23,660
Yeah.

438
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,500
And the, the Vsphere stuff.

439
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,680
I mean, this is what used to be called project Pacific.

440
00:24:28,060 --> 00:24:31,760
I believe that now it's Vsphere for Kubernetes baked into Vsphere seven, but I mean, the idea

441
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,380
here, right, is that you more or less have the ability to manage what containers and VMs

442
00:24:36,380 --> 00:24:40,120
together, and you can actually spin up clusters directly from within and manage them within

443
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:40,460
Vsphere.

444
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:42,040
Yeah.

445
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,660
And as you think about, you know, a lot of times in technology, we're always kind of chasing

446
00:24:46,660 --> 00:24:48,920
what that, you know, shiny new object is.

447
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,880
And as you were just, you mentioned, Richard, with the Kubernetes stuff is that, you know,

448
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,160
we're just building a lot more things and there's going to be more VMs.

449
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:57,480
There's going to be more Kubernetes.

450
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:58,640
There's going to be more containers.

451
00:24:58,780 --> 00:24:59,620
There's going to be more serverless.

452
00:24:59,660 --> 00:25:02,000
There's going to be kind of more of, of kind of everything.

453
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:08,540
And so the more ways you can have some sort of operational efficiency across all those different,

454
00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:13,800
you know, layers of abstraction is a good thing for the operations folks out there.

455
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:19,400
And so being able to have VMs and containers and sort of that one interface is probably one

456
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:24,400
of the standout capabilities because it allows you to take advantage of all the containers

457
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:30,640
and automation and increased resource utilization to the earlier point without having it be

458
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,860
a big disruption to your day-to-day workflow.

459
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,540
Yeah, this was something I was alluding to earlier, but I was reading a little more last

460
00:25:37,540 --> 00:25:38,740
week about native pods.

461
00:25:38,740 --> 00:25:43,340
One of those features in Vsphere 7 around Kubernetes where you're actually running these containers

462
00:25:43,340 --> 00:25:45,940
and like micro VMs, which are pretty cool stuff.

463
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,780
This is where they get some crazy performance on this.

464
00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:53,380
So almost back to the bottle rocket stuff, firecracker stuff, these other technologies around

465
00:25:53,380 --> 00:25:56,680
infrastructure, even Amazon's been shipping, you know, we're doing some pretty cool stuff

466
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,800
here that maybe some don't actually recognize, but there's some neat stuff versus just kind

467
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,800
of squeezing Kubernetes into a hypervisor environment.

468
00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:05,220
It seems like it was a bigger deal than that.

469
00:26:06,180 --> 00:26:07,580
Yeah, I'd agree with that.

470
00:26:07,740 --> 00:26:12,400
And when you have the creators of Kubernetes as the ones that are helping, you know, build

471
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,640
and launch this stuff, you think there's probably going to be some pretty slick, you know,

472
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,400
engineering effort that is going to be really cutting edge rather than just kind of cramming

473
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,580
it into, you know, what you know and love about Vsphere.

474
00:26:22,780 --> 00:26:27,060
And I think that also the branding and naming is an interesting thing with something like

475
00:26:27,060 --> 00:26:31,900
Tanzu Kubernetes grid, where you think about the electricity grid, you just plug in and

476
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:33,580
get your stuff in it and it works.

477
00:26:33,780 --> 00:26:40,220
I think that's really the idea behind this whole Kubernetes effort with VMware is that you

478
00:26:40,220 --> 00:26:45,180
just have a Kubernetes grid ready and waiting for your containers, for your containerized

479
00:26:45,180 --> 00:26:48,020
applications, and then you're off to the races from there.

480
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,700
And you really have this another layer of technology melting around into the background.

481
00:26:53,260 --> 00:26:54,500
And it just kind of works.

482
00:26:54,820 --> 00:26:57,600
We all talk about technology is really at its best when it's boring.

483
00:26:57,940 --> 00:27:00,900
And this is, I think, a really big step into making Kubernetes boring.

484
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:07,360
Yeah, it'll be certainly add to Ubiquity the more and more people who have, you know, a

485
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:08,700
VMware stack already installed.

486
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:14,820
If they can add in Kubernetes easily, it'll be boring in an exciting way.

487
00:27:15,180 --> 00:27:16,180
I don't know.

488
00:27:16,340 --> 00:27:19,340
I mean, is that completely bonkers when you're going to be putting, I mean, when, you know,

489
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,140
tens of thousands of corporations are going to be incorporating Kubernetes into their environments?

490
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,560
It doesn't seem nuts when you're making it that easy and ubiquitous and boring.

491
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:27,480
Yes.

492
00:27:27,820 --> 00:27:30,200
It might be good predictions.

493
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:33,300
In contrast.

494
00:27:33,780 --> 00:27:36,180
So you mentioned this, Jared.

495
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,320
So what is a Tanzu Kubernetes grid?

496
00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:48,980
Yeah, I think that's the, it's the, it's the thing that is the Kubernetes dimension of, of

497
00:27:48,980 --> 00:27:50,500
the new flavor of vSphere.

498
00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:55,380
So it gives you the, the Kubernetes, you know, runtime where you can actually, you know, interact

499
00:27:55,380 --> 00:27:57,520
with, with Kubernetes and get it up and going.

500
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,260
So it's going to, it has a really simple, you know, installation, really straightforward

501
00:28:02,260 --> 00:28:04,460
as part of, as part of vSphere.

502
00:28:04,700 --> 00:28:07,640
And it automates a lot of the, you know, multi-cluster operations.

503
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,100
That's kind of a big, a big to do with Kubernetes these days.

504
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,260
The hard part is getting it to actually work.

505
00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:18,320
And so Kubernetes grid just has some of that, you know, baked into, you know, streamline

506
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,600
a lot of the operational bits.

507
00:28:20,460 --> 00:28:25,020
And then it works on, you know, private cloud, public cloud, and then, and then at the edge

508
00:28:25,020 --> 00:28:26,900
as well, or at least that's the, that's the big idea.

509
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,180
That's some of the vision behind it.

510
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,680
Well, I mean, I think the other thing I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm assuming from all this with

511
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,480
my, my long history with enterprise software is, you know, it's just, just a point in time

512
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,500
release of certain products and things.

513
00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:44,280
There's a, there's a vision for many other ways of doing things, which, which is always

514
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,160
exciting, but it does seem like, like the way I've been thinking about, uh, Tang Tzu

515
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,840
Kubernetes grid, or as we like to say it in our emails, TKG, uh, is, I mean, it's essentially

516
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,140
the, uh, the VMware Kubernetes distro, which, which, which I think is fun.

517
00:28:59,140 --> 00:29:03,880
I don't, I don't hear the word distro anymore outside of the world of Linux, but it, uh, I

518
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,160
think that's another thing in going forward.

519
00:29:06,260 --> 00:29:11,300
That'll be fun to see is like just distro comparisons of things, uh, which, which should

520
00:29:11,300 --> 00:29:15,220
be hopefully straightforward as far as, uh, comparing them together.

521
00:29:16,060 --> 00:29:21,140
Yeah, I think that's a, that's a pretty, pretty key point there with, you know, compatibility

522
00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:26,120
with upstream, you know, Kubernetes and kind of how people play with the open source, you

523
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,900
know, ecosystem and, and clearly, uh, a lot of enterprise buyers out there want, you know,

524
00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:31,180
open.

525
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,220
They want that upstream compatibility with everything, um, which is part of the, the tricky part

526
00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:40,760
of, you know, monetizing all this open source stuff is, you know, proprietary extensions are

527
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,280
one ways for vendors to stand out, but that also, you know, sometimes locks you in as a customer.

528
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,100
So it's an incredible balancing act to try and strike.

529
00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:52,580
And I think with, you know, VMware and probably some of this is the heritage from Heptio and

530
00:29:52,580 --> 00:29:57,340
Pivotal really informing the open source strategy is, you know, playing, uh, playing well with

531
00:29:57,340 --> 00:29:58,180
the open source community.

532
00:29:58,180 --> 00:30:03,200
So there's that pure upstream, you know, compatibility with different, you know, flavors of, of Kubernetes.

533
00:30:03,540 --> 00:30:07,660
So I think this is about as, you know, pure and open source, uh, distro of Cades, as you're

534
00:30:07,660 --> 00:30:08,360
going to find out there.

535
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,680
So now, now there's a few other things in the, uh, in the umbrella here.

536
00:30:12,780 --> 00:30:16,140
I'm going to, as the guest, I'm going to let you pick your next favorite one.

537
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,600
I mean, sorry, maybe this is your favorite one, but I'm going to allow you to pick the, uh, another

538
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,820
one of your favorites instead of forcing it on you.

539
00:30:23,820 --> 00:30:27,360
What's, what's another component that, uh, that, that you like?

540
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,120
Yeah, you can kind of, we can just kind of go, go, go through it.

541
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,200
I think, you know, once you've got a bunch of Kubernetes clusters, you know, that's, that's fine.

542
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,580
But then that's not the hard part, you know, spinning up clusters isn't, isn't the hard part.

543
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,060
The hard part is, is looking after them and taking care of them.

544
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,160
And, and Kubernetes, uh, is, uh, you know, pretty darn close to ubiquitous.

545
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,900
It's on, you know, vSphere now and it's, you know, on all the public clouds.

546
00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:58,260
And so if you've got these Kubernetes clusters and they happen to adhere to the, uh, open source,

547
00:30:58,340 --> 00:31:02,060
you know, flavor of Kubernetes, you're going to want a way to, you know, manage all that

548
00:31:02,060 --> 00:31:05,700
stuff and get a handle on the observability, telemetry.

549
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,900
And, you know, if you're working for a big company, you want to make sure that there's

550
00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:13,440
the right, you know, governance and doing version upgrades are all, uh, are all in sync

551
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,420
across all the different flavors you've got.

552
00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:19,340
And so, uh, that was the other, one of the other big things that was announced was, you

553
00:31:19,340 --> 00:31:23,420
know, Tanzu mission control, which I think was alluded to a moment ago where you've got

554
00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:27,820
a nice view and a window into all the kids clusters you have, no matter what cloud they're

555
00:31:27,820 --> 00:31:28,420
running on.

556
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,820
And then you can, you know, do all the usual, you know, day two operational kind of goodness

557
00:31:32,820 --> 00:31:33,380
from there.

558
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,560
So, um, that I think is, uh, you know, once you've got the Kubernetes up and going, that's

559
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,560
the next logical problem as an operations team that you want to go try and take down.

560
00:31:43,220 --> 00:31:46,780
Is there a certain feature of that that you think, Jared, as you've looked at that, is

561
00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:50,040
going to be the most compelling when you think of diving, just provisioning, managing and

562
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,960
troubleshooting and inspection as anything when you've seen demos of that or things like

563
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,560
that, what jumps out to you most at TMC?

564
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,760
Uh, I think, and this is maybe where, you know, for, for VMware, it gets kind of exciting

565
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:06,600
as well, where if you're running this, uh, in your data center on premises, get that extra

566
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:07,340
S in there.

567
00:32:07,820 --> 00:32:11,900
Uh, you can see this kind of, uh, global control plane.

568
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:19,300
And so if you work for a bank or a heavily regulated industry, that kind of idea of a global

569
00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:23,940
control plane where you can kind of, you know, get in and see at the very core of the

570
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,300
of what's happening, uh, across all the Cates clusters and you're doing that in your data

571
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:34,220
center, that gives you another layer of access that is just, uh, uh, excellent in terms of

572
00:32:34,220 --> 00:32:36,120
a compliance, uh, point of view.

573
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:37,840
So there's similar offerings.

574
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,120
Everybody's trying to race, uh, you know, take a look at, you know, all your Cates clusters,

575
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:41,920
wherever they're running.

576
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,860
Um, but the public clouds, you know, won't give you, you know, easy access to that.

577
00:32:45,860 --> 00:32:50,020
So having that as part of your on-prem mix, uh, is another, I think, you know, point

578
00:32:50,020 --> 00:32:53,500
for, for TMC, if you work for one of those heavily regulated type of industries.

579
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,860
And then, uh, another component is the application catalog.

580
00:32:58,980 --> 00:33:01,500
And now that's, that's like, uh, the Bitnami stuff, right?

581
00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:03,820
It is.

582
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:04,060
Yeah.

583
00:33:04,140 --> 00:33:08,500
And that's a, that's another one that takes a look at some of these big, big, uh, big

584
00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:13,740
themes in the enterprise about containers, automation and open source and that kind of,

585
00:33:13,740 --> 00:33:21,440
you know, running full head into again, infosec and compliance, uh, where you have this, you

586
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,820
know, this is really kind of been around ever since there's been the idea of containers where

587
00:33:24,820 --> 00:33:30,400
there's been a lot of, uh, good stuff for developers to help streamline the workflows and people

588
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,760
want to get their stuff to production quickly.

589
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,760
But then if you've got infosec and compliance folks in the mix, um, they'll often, you'll

590
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,700
put the, put the brakes on that, uh, because they aren't really sure how to audit, you know,

591
00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:43,100
what's happening in the, in the container.

592
00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:47,040
And they don't have that, you know, chain of command or auditability around what was in

593
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,160
that particular container.

594
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:53,280
And so now with the application catalog, based on the heritage of Vietnam and all the

595
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:58,700
expertise that those folks have into the mix, you've got this really nice curated set of,

596
00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:04,040
uh, open source titles that you can bring into, you know, this application catalog, you know,

597
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,420
hence the name, attach it with a golden image and have all kinds of wonderful automation

598
00:34:08,420 --> 00:34:12,920
around the, around the patching and security, um, for those open source titles.

599
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:18,220
And then as an operations team, you can then expose those, uh, curated images to your developers

600
00:34:18,220 --> 00:34:24,160
and they can use that for backing services for, you know, CICD type of workflows.

601
00:34:24,700 --> 00:34:28,480
Um, they can use it for any number of other things they've used, you know, their open source,

602
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,280
you know, stuff where typically even things like content management systems that we don't

603
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,200
usually think about as a part of this whole software mix.

604
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,680
So it's a great way to really responsibly harness the power of, of open source.

605
00:34:40,260 --> 00:34:44,900
And yeah, I, I think, I think, uh, you know, I think over, over the years, I think what,

606
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,680
what are, what we've seen, I've seen our customers have seen as, as you were kind of alluding

607
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:50,460
to earlier, right?

608
00:34:50,460 --> 00:34:54,640
Like you get a, the platform all set up and then you have what I, what I call the, uh,

609
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,960
the blinking cursor problem, where there's just like a blinking cursor and now you need to

610
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,920
do something with it, uh, you know, do some actual development.

611
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:07,440
And I think this is what you were just going over is one of these, these areas that is important

612
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:13,440
for basically enabling self-service for your developers, which matters because it allows

613
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,480
them to like speed up their, their cycles.

614
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,020
As we were talking about earlier, you know, getting, getting releases out more, which allows

615
00:35:20,020 --> 00:35:25,600
them to focus less on manual toil, valueless things from a customer perspective.

616
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:31,560
So packaging up all that middleware or frameworks or things, one, just like, you know, it's nice

617
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,240
to have them packaged up because then they don't have to worry about filing a ticket to configure

618
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:37,080
something and it can be handled more.

619
00:35:37,140 --> 00:35:42,000
But I think the other side, which I've been thinking about a lot more is, uh, how you can

620
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:48,760
basically use a lot of this stuff for, I don't know, automated enterprise governance.

621
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,600
I'm always trying to stick governance into the conversation just to see who gets annoyed, uh,

622
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,360
uh, it's such a word, but it, I think it really does allow you to more like scale up a lot

623
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,780
of these benefits because you don't have to worry about the governance and checking things.

624
00:36:01,780 --> 00:36:05,440
I mean, you do have to worry about it, but you worry about it by automating it more and

625
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:05,620
more.

626
00:36:05,620 --> 00:36:10,620
So we used to have some, uh, some funny ways of talking about this many years ago, but like

627
00:36:10,620 --> 00:36:15,220
you have more assurances of like this chunk of code that your developers are using.

628
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,980
So you have to, you don't have to give them as much manual oversight because you, uh, you

629
00:36:19,980 --> 00:36:24,720
trust that the chunks of code that they're using, if they're packaged up and governed well

630
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:30,160
on such a thing, which, you know, doesn't seem like a thrilling, exciting thing, but it

631
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,380
helps you do, helps you do something with that blinking cursor and have the wheels, uh, stay

632
00:36:34,380 --> 00:36:37,980
attached to your organization to mix all sorts of metaphors together.

633
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:40,620
That chain of custody stuff seems pretty important.

634
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,540
I mean, that's where, you know, I know there's some rebranding Jared, I think that's gone

635
00:36:44,540 --> 00:36:48,180
on as well, but as you think of the build service and things like that, it's also about chain

636
00:36:48,180 --> 00:36:52,600
of custody and sort of building materials in your containers and apps, you know, the app

637
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,240
catalog, same for the sort of open source software you bring in.

638
00:36:55,580 --> 00:36:59,940
It seems like in large companies, when you have so much self-service and so many things pulled

639
00:36:59,940 --> 00:37:03,340
from lots of places, it's great to have a trusted set of sources that you can audit.

640
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:05,040
Yeah.

641
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,760
I, and I, you know, we all kind of love a lot of the wild west innovation that's, you

642
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,560
know, happening in the open source, you know, community, and there's, you know, a ton of

643
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:14,760
awesome things that are happening.

644
00:37:15,420 --> 00:37:20,100
Um, and if you're, you know, in an enterprise, you know, IT executive, or even a practitioner,

645
00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:23,760
you know, it's hard to kind of keep track of the velocity of things that are happening

646
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,460
there, you know, let alone try to think about how you can harness some of that for the reality

647
00:37:28,460 --> 00:37:32,020
of what these enterprise environments, you know, really, really are.

648
00:37:32,020 --> 00:37:36,460
So I think companies that have tended to do well with open source have, you know, found

649
00:37:36,460 --> 00:37:42,140
ways to make this auditing, this governance, you know, pretty straightforward, um, as well

650
00:37:42,140 --> 00:37:46,500
as, you know, taking, you know, taking away some of the operational, you know, pain of things

651
00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:49,460
for, for day two, that all that day two stuff that you're just, you know, talking about,

652
00:37:49,540 --> 00:37:49,960
you know, Coté.

653
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:55,280
So, uh, and even, you know, thinking back to, to mission control, uh, that to me seems

654
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,940
like a new or an old, uh, a new twist on a familiar idea where in the early days of public

655
00:38:00,940 --> 00:38:05,760
cloud, people were spinning up, you know, VMs to get the, get the job done outside of IT

656
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:06,580
ticketing circles.

657
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,700
And then you've got all the kind of VMs running, you know, all over the place without, you know,

658
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:12,400
centralized IT knowing about it.

659
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,480
You know, now you've got Kate's cluster clusters spinning up all over the place and, you know,

660
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:17,780
IT doesn't always know about it.

661
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,360
So mission control helps you kind of, you'll reign in all those clusters, but it's really

662
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,940
kind of the same movie that we saw say 10 years ago.

663
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,640
And now, you know, providing self-service access to, you know, all these wonderful services

664
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,500
is kind of been an ongoing thing in the enterprise.

665
00:38:32,580 --> 00:38:36,220
And there's just kind of, you know, new ways that they're delivered and new ways you want

666
00:38:36,220 --> 00:38:37,120
that stuff to run.

667
00:38:37,300 --> 00:38:41,020
So it's kind of the same ideas that we see, you know, over and over again.

668
00:38:42,580 --> 00:38:47,420
So, so then another area, I, you know, I used to cover, uh, I used to work at BMC software

669
00:38:47,420 --> 00:38:50,400
a long time ago on monitoring things and systems management.

670
00:38:50,620 --> 00:38:54,740
Now we have a, it's a, it's a, it's a little bit of a rebranding, but we have something

671
00:38:54,740 --> 00:38:59,100
called a Tanzu observability, which, uh, helps, helps you keep track of all this stuff.

672
00:38:59,140 --> 00:39:00,580
So tell us, tell us what that is.

673
00:39:01,940 --> 00:39:06,440
Yeah, I think observability is the kind of the, the new word that we use to talk about,

674
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,820
you know, metrics and logging and events and telemetry.

675
00:39:09,820 --> 00:39:14,240
And there's kind of something to, uh, to that, that name, being able to, you know, actually

676
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:19,060
observe all the parts of your system from infrastructure to applications is, is really kind of what

677
00:39:19,060 --> 00:39:22,560
you're after, you know, because, you know, just getting your data streams of information

678
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,780
here and there may be useful, but it may not be the complete picture.

679
00:39:26,780 --> 00:39:29,820
So I appreciate the observability term.

680
00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:33,500
Uh, so yeah, this is, you know, one of the companies that we talk about, you know, Vietnam,

681
00:39:33,620 --> 00:39:37,940
we talk about Pivotal, but then also there's Wayfront, a firm that VMware acquired that had

682
00:39:37,940 --> 00:39:41,560
this, uh, you know, pretty slick full stack observability offering.

683
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,940
And so that's where, uh, it's brought into the tons of portfolio now.

684
00:39:44,940 --> 00:39:50,600
And I was really meant to solve that, that observability, uh, I guess, problem, you know,

685
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,460
for applications, for infrastructure, um, with some pretty interesting, you know, analytics

686
00:39:54,460 --> 00:39:55,600
on top of all that stuff.

687
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,540
So it's easier to, uh, help your systems recover, you know, faster.

688
00:39:59,540 --> 00:40:02,420
It's easier to diagnose what's happening with your application.

689
00:40:02,420 --> 00:40:06,120
It's easier to understand, you know, what's happening with all your microservices, things

690
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,380
like distributed tracing, and then take a look at all your infrastructure, um, you know,

691
00:40:10,380 --> 00:40:14,300
whatever infrastructure target that may be, you know, on-prem, public cloud, what have

692
00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:18,580
you really kind of this full stack observability across any cloud for any application.

693
00:40:18,580 --> 00:40:21,600
So, uh, that's, uh, that's a story with that one.

694
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,620
And interestingly, it's a, it's a SAS model.

695
00:40:24,060 --> 00:40:26,960
Um, so it's a pretty straightforward to get up and get up and running.

696
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,760
You just kind of, uh, sign up and turn it on and get the hooks into some of the infrastructure

697
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,380
and whatever Kubernetes or app platforms you may be running.

698
00:40:35,380 --> 00:40:39,780
And you can get a pretty useful stream of, of telemetry without, uh, too much work.

699
00:40:40,940 --> 00:40:41,340
Yeah.

700
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,320
And I haven't used it firsthand yet, but it does, it does look really nice.

701
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,620
I mean, I, I really love monitoring stuff.

702
00:40:47,740 --> 00:40:48,400
That's great.

703
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,540
Just all the dashboards and, uh, little charts.

704
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:53,720
Yeah.

705
00:40:53,740 --> 00:40:57,960
There are other stuff, uh, you mentioned with observability, kind of the renamed way from

706
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,080
what else got renamed as part of this Tanzu announcement from last week.

707
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:02,280
Yeah.

708
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:03,780
A couple other, a couple other things.

709
00:41:03,780 --> 00:41:09,460
Uh, a big chunk of the, uh, pivotal portfolio is now renamed, you know, Tanzu.

710
00:41:09,460 --> 00:41:14,940
So, um, I think people, uh, really felt strongly about keeping pivotal labs.

711
00:41:14,940 --> 00:41:19,420
So that is the, the one kind of your flagship thing that, uh, that remains, you know, pivotal

712
00:41:19,420 --> 00:41:19,820
branded.

713
00:41:20,180 --> 00:41:25,260
Um, but then from there, the, uh, pivotal application service is now the Tanzu application service.

714
00:41:25,260 --> 00:41:28,540
And then the pivotal build service is now the Tanzu build service.

715
00:41:28,540 --> 00:41:33,120
So a little bit of a makeover in terms of the brand hierarchy and all these things should

716
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,680
hopefully make it a lot easier for customers to understand, uh, what's what that's certainly

717
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,100
the, the intent of all these rebranding efforts.

718
00:41:40,780 --> 00:41:44,640
Um, so there's a lot of, a lot of work that people have done to get the website updated,

719
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,360
you know, documentation, the Tanzu network where you download the bits.

720
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,380
So you'll still see pockets of pivotal, you know, here and there, but the idea is to have,

721
00:41:52,380 --> 00:41:56,300
you know, Tanzu be kind of the, the big front and center brand for all these different things.

722
00:41:56,300 --> 00:42:00,120
And so if you, uh, see senior names for stuff, that's some of the rationale why.

723
00:42:00,780 --> 00:42:01,580
Yeah, it makes sense.

724
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,700
Now, if you look at the whole set of things that got announced last week, which was huge,

725
00:42:05,780 --> 00:42:09,300
it's probably one of the bigger VMware announcement periods that they've had.

726
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,000
You could, you could make the case.

727
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:12,660
It was still pretty infrastructure-y.

728
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,980
So if you're a traditional pivotal customer, maybe you looked at last week and went, wow,

729
00:42:15,980 --> 00:42:16,760
that's a lot of Kubernetes.

730
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:22,460
So it feels like there's a, you know, I would think that our, our advice is stay tuned.

731
00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:25,300
Cause we, you know, you and I, we all know there's a lot more awesome stuff coming,

732
00:42:25,380 --> 00:42:28,400
especially for the app developer, heck spring live this week's going to be amazing.

733
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,660
So do you have any kind of words of, uh, words of advice for somebody who thinks that maybe

734
00:42:33,660 --> 00:42:35,640
we've, we've rotated completely the infrastructure?

735
00:42:37,180 --> 00:42:40,300
Yeah, I think, you know, we, I continue to, to watch this space.

736
00:42:40,300 --> 00:42:45,520
You know, I think the, the developer, uh, experience and developer brand was, you know,

737
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,300
one of the really attractive things, you know, for pivotal, uh, you know, now that we're

738
00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:50,520
part of the VMware family.

739
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,980
So certainly all the, all the spring stuff, crazy amount of investment, you know,

740
00:42:53,980 --> 00:42:58,260
happening in spring, you know, steel toe for.net developers out there, you know, crazy amount

741
00:42:58,260 --> 00:42:59,720
of investment, you know, happening there.

742
00:43:00,260 --> 00:43:05,340
Um, and then for our flagship offering, you know, the times of application service, uh,

743
00:43:05,340 --> 00:43:06,980
lots of innovation happening there as well.

744
00:43:06,980 --> 00:43:09,240
We've got kind of the usual quarterly release cadence.

745
00:43:09,460 --> 00:43:11,160
That is a, that continues a pace.

746
00:43:11,260 --> 00:43:13,160
We had the last version drop in December.

747
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,060
There's another version that, you know, is going to, going to drop before, before too long.

748
00:43:17,060 --> 00:43:19,220
So lots of cool stuff happening there.

749
00:43:19,220 --> 00:43:23,200
And then, uh, a lot of other kind of crazy investments we've talked about, you know, in

750
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,020
the past that are continuing to, to come along that, uh, really exciting stuff to, to unveil

751
00:43:28,020 --> 00:43:28,460
the folks.

752
00:43:29,180 --> 00:43:31,040
Yeah, no, lots of, lots of good stuff.

753
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,780
And it's spring steel toe language stuff's exciting.

754
00:43:33,780 --> 00:43:38,760
So yeah, it's, it's a, it's interesting watching VMware become a company that's focused on kind

755
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,460
of the outcomes all the way up the stack, back to like, are you building the right thing

756
00:43:42,460 --> 00:43:46,880
pivotal labs to kind of the build it right spring steel toe rabbit, all kinds of fun stuff.

757
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,980
And then are you running it the right way with all this app, this, you know, the stack,

758
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,320
it's an interesting portfolio.

759
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,460
Now is this, when you look at this from your old pivotal days, where do you see like, oh

760
00:43:56,460 --> 00:43:59,700
gosh, it's nice to finally be able to cover this where we didn't get to talk about this

761
00:43:59,700 --> 00:44:03,540
before anything kind of for you coming into this, where you're like this, this makes my

762
00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:04,860
job easier or even harder.

763
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:12,360
Uh, you know, I think, uh, certainly having the, the full, uh, the full infrastructure.

764
00:44:12,460 --> 00:44:14,680
Stack, you know, dimension is, is pretty exciting.

765
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,160
Um, obviously, you know, vSphere was where a lot of customers would deploy the, the pivotal,

766
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:20,140
uh, offering.

767
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:25,720
Um, but then being able to talk about how deeply integrated some of the vSphere API, some of

768
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:30,760
the NSX APIs, uh, is, is pretty exciting and have kind of that unified, you know, message,

769
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,340
you know, out there is kind of key.

770
00:44:32,780 --> 00:44:36,760
Um, but then there's all, all kinds of other things, you know, happening, uh, as well with,

771
00:44:36,900 --> 00:44:38,400
uh, things like, you know, service mesh.

772
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,040
I think we talked about that a little bit earlier on today where there's been some, you know,

773
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,680
service mesh components that we've talked about as part of the, the application platform,

774
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,680
but you certainly VMware has got a really strong story there with, uh, you know, what we're

775
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,060
calling the Tanzu service mesh.

776
00:44:51,100 --> 00:44:55,020
And I guess, you know, the NSX, you know, family of networking products, being able to

777
00:44:55,020 --> 00:45:00,240
take this, you know, really kind of, you know, confusing, convoluted service mesh pattern and

778
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:04,860
use it to really, you know, solve a lot of really, you know, thorny ingress and egress kinds

779
00:45:04,860 --> 00:45:09,460
of issues across all those, you know, infrastructure targets and abstraction that customers may,

780
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:10,360
may try and have.

781
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:17,200
So there's, uh, just a heck of a lot of, uh, more, uh, value, I guess, that we can bring

782
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,240
to our customers with kind of the core automation developer productivity stuff of, uh, pivotal

783
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:26,620
kind of, you know, getting some deeper integrations and deeper hooks into the larger VMware, your

784
00:45:26,620 --> 00:45:27,060
family.

785
00:45:27,060 --> 00:45:30,600
And if you, you kind of really look closely at all these announcements where some investments

786
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:35,780
are being made, it's really clear to see, you know, why all this modern application stuff

787
00:45:35,780 --> 00:45:38,940
is, you know, Pat Gelsinger's number one priority for VMware this year.

788
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,800
All that story, all those pieces are really starting to come together in a kind of a unified

789
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:43,260
way.

790
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,680
And I think the stuff on March 10th was really kind of the first, uh, introduction of that.

791
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,260
Um, and then you're just going to see tighter and tighter integration as the, as the year

792
00:45:51,260 --> 00:45:51,820
goes along.

793
00:45:53,340 --> 00:45:56,240
Yeah, that's, so that's a good, uh, good roundup as always.

794
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,680
You did a good job exploring what's on the shelf there.

795
00:45:58,840 --> 00:45:59,800
I like that.

796
00:46:00,020 --> 00:46:07,280
And, you know, excuse me, as, uh, as, as we, uh, you know, uh, Richard used the phrase

797
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:13,000
chain of custody, which, you know, uh, I didn't know we could get any more, any more, uh, technical

798
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,200
in our, in our description of stuff, but what chain of tech custody is good.

799
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:22,240
And, you know, it was making me think there's, uh, there's this, uh, uh, uh, not incorrect

800
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:26,720
at all idea that like, you know, uh, technology is not going to fix things for you.

801
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:28,460
It's, it's, it's all about the culture that you have.

802
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:34,240
And, and I think, which has always like been a little too categorical for, for my likes,

803
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,740
but I think, I think there's something scurrying around here that, that, that y'all are making

804
00:46:37,740 --> 00:46:41,520
me think, which is like, you know, if we've got our, our product team, our people writing

805
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:46,180
software, we always want them to be, uh, well, I don't know if always, but we would like them

806
00:46:46,180 --> 00:46:51,340
to be autonomous, which is to say they can work fast enough to like know the, the people

807
00:46:51,340 --> 00:46:54,720
they're serving the software they're doing and start to make product decisions so they can

808
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:57,080
do them within a week, if not shorter, right?

809
00:46:57,100 --> 00:47:01,180
Like you don't have time to sort of like, uh, do they still say run it up the flagpole

810
00:47:01,180 --> 00:47:05,300
and see who shorts flap in the wind or something, but you don't have a lot of time to go check

811
00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:06,020
with other people.

812
00:47:06,020 --> 00:47:11,880
And it's, uh, to use lean terminology, the people who are actually closest to the line,

813
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:17,020
if not on the line, have a lot of ideas as you would imagine about how to do things well

814
00:47:17,020 --> 00:47:18,380
and often have the best ideas.

815
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:24,140
And it seems like a lot of the problem large organizations have is, is, uh, they don't trust

816
00:47:24,140 --> 00:47:24,560
people.

817
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:30,440
And so if you can put a lot of this kind of governance stuff in place, then at the very

818
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,780
least, it's just kind of a cynical approach to becoming optimistic, but you can end up trusting

819
00:47:34,780 --> 00:47:37,520
the technology and the tools a lot.

820
00:47:37,700 --> 00:47:42,000
And then if you have these people, you don't trust using the technology and the tools, maybe

821
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,940
you can start to see that actually you can trust them just fine.

822
00:47:44,940 --> 00:47:48,920
And you probably should have all along and you can get closer and closer to that, uh, those

823
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:53,260
autonomous teams who are working on things and hopefully making the software that we all

824
00:47:53,260 --> 00:47:58,500
use better, uh, which, which should be dandy, uh, for all sorts of things.

825
00:47:58,540 --> 00:48:03,020
I mean, tax season is coming up and, uh, you know, last, last time I interacted with filing

826
00:48:03,020 --> 00:48:08,660
my taxes, you can see a good example of actual software improving and making things better.

827
00:48:08,660 --> 00:48:14,380
It's always a pretty easy process to do versus when I used to, uh, I didn't ever have to

828
00:48:14,380 --> 00:48:17,180
do this cause I would do it ahead of time, but there used to be all these pictures on

829
00:48:17,180 --> 00:48:22,740
the local news of, uh, you know, the line of cars by the mailbox, the IRS service center

830
00:48:22,740 --> 00:48:30,880
and, uh, I don't think that really happens so much anymore, but the point being, uh, a huge

831
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,580
like stack of enterprise stuff may seem a little like overwhelming and enterprisey, but I think

832
00:48:35,580 --> 00:48:40,520
it has a really good forcing function in large organizations that if people don't already trust

833
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:45,480
their people, they can start getting to trusting them through, uh, good governance like this and

834
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:46,560
tools that they trust.

835
00:48:48,260 --> 00:48:54,360
So that's one to grow on and, and, uh, yeah, so thanks for being on Jared as I think, you

836
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,140
know, people may have, since you've been on so many times, they might know how to keep up

837
00:48:58,140 --> 00:48:58,400
with you.

838
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:03,780
They might have that memorized, but for those new listeners that we have, uh, who, how, how

839
00:49:03,780 --> 00:49:08,540
could they, uh, see what you're up to and see any more insights that you have, uh, whether

840
00:49:08,540 --> 00:49:14,140
it's time to related or, uh, you know, uh, otherwise or a makeshift coffee filter.

841
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:14,900
That's right.

842
00:49:15,060 --> 00:49:15,500
That's right.

843
00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:18,720
They could follow up on my suggestion for using dress socks.

844
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,860
Uh, hopefully, hopefully you can experiment there instead of me doing it.

845
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:24,000
Yeah.

846
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,640
I'm on the, uh, the Twitter at, uh, Jared Ruckel.com or just Jared Ruckel.

847
00:49:29,220 --> 00:49:30,180
No, no.com there.

848
00:49:30,260 --> 00:49:32,440
It's a non-commercial enterprise.

849
00:49:32,620 --> 00:49:32,780
Yeah.

850
00:49:33,140 --> 00:49:36,540
You should go, uh, register that quickly until someone else does.

851
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:38,000
That would be great.

852
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,900
I have a lot of enemies out there that may be squatting in there to, to sully my, my good

853
00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:42,160
name.

854
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,580
Oh, just think of the hundreds of dollars they'll force out of you.

855
00:49:45,740 --> 00:49:46,140
Man.

856
00:49:46,180 --> 00:49:46,620
I know.

857
00:49:46,820 --> 00:49:47,180
Jeez.

858
00:49:47,820 --> 00:49:51,480
That's money you could be used to using to buy a coffee filter instead of using an old

859
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:52,040
dress sock.

860
00:49:52,980 --> 00:49:53,160
Yeah.

861
00:49:55,260 --> 00:49:56,160
Uh, all right.

862
00:49:56,220 --> 00:49:59,340
Well, as always, this has been Tanzu talk.

863
00:50:00,020 --> 00:50:04,560
Uh, we'll be updating the URL, but there's two places, uh, you'll be able to go to.

864
00:50:04,620 --> 00:50:10,140
If you want to see the back catalog of everything, you can go to the original or legacy URL, which

865
00:50:10,140 --> 00:50:16,720
is soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations, or, uh, you should also be able to go to soundcloud.com

866
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:17,860
slash Tanzu talk.

867
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:25,740
Um, and, uh, you can also go to, uh, tanzu.vmware.com and, uh, look up the podcast page we have there.

868
00:50:25,740 --> 00:50:32,060
And you can see those show notes, including a link to our event this Thursday on, uh, March

869
00:50:32,060 --> 00:50:37,340
19th, uh, where you can stay up for 24 hours or not.

870
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:38,320
They'll be recorded.

871
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:39,760
So you don't actually have to stay up.

872
00:50:39,860 --> 00:50:40,560
They're not ephemeral.

873
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:41,580
They won't disappear.

874
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:47,940
Like, uh, like, you know, local storage state and a container managed by Kubernetes, or I should

875
00:50:47,940 --> 00:50:52,460
say a pod since all the pods, the containers in the pod share the same storage.

876
00:50:52,580 --> 00:50:53,160
I don't know.

877
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:54,580
I'm going to have to learn how to talk about that.

878
00:50:54,620 --> 00:50:58,420
It's, it's a very, uh, it's, it's not a paradox.

879
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,660
It's a very, uh, multifaceted thing.

880
00:51:01,180 --> 00:51:05,960
Uh, anyways, you can, you can check that out.

881
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:07,120
Lots of development stuff.

882
00:51:07,220 --> 00:51:08,100
It'll be very exciting.

883
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,940
And, uh, also some operational things if you're into that.

884
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,040
But if you look, if you look for the, uh, the hashtag spring live and Twitter, you can

885
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,860
also track it down as well, but hopefully we'll see you with that.

886
00:51:18,060 --> 00:51:20,520
And, uh, with that, we'll see everyone next time.

887
00:51:21,140 --> 00:51:21,760
Bye bye.