1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,260 So, Paul, you're big into food. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:04,460 I have a question for you. 3 00:00:04,820 --> 00:00:07,480 Now, do you have a position on drinking broth? 4 00:00:07,940 --> 00:00:08,600 It depends. 5 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,920 I have opinions about this thing called bone broth 6 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:16,780 and how it's really just stuck with a bunch of woo wrapped around it. 7 00:00:17,020 --> 00:00:17,760 What is woo? 8 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,180 Well, I think of woo like a, I guess like a, 9 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,480 I'm going to probably get myself into trouble, 10 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:29,480 but like a chiropractor or a homeopathic doctor or a... 11 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:30,360 Mystical. 12 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:31,280 Mystical. 13 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:31,520 Yeah. 14 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:32,380 That makes sense. 15 00:00:32,480 --> 00:00:32,600 Okay. 16 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:38,500 So, you think beef broth has a certain amount of mysticism associated with it? 17 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:39,520 No, bone broth. 18 00:00:39,780 --> 00:00:40,360 Bone broth. 19 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:41,360 Oh, okay. 20 00:00:41,460 --> 00:00:41,560 Okay. 21 00:00:42,140 --> 00:00:47,740 Bone broth is really just stock because stock is just bones that you boil in water 22 00:00:47,740 --> 00:00:50,260 to make a delicious stock with. 23 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:55,040 And then you take that stock and you can either turn that into broth, 24 00:00:55,220 --> 00:00:58,400 which is kind of like a stock without really much in it, 25 00:00:58,460 --> 00:00:59,240 or you have a soup, 26 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,700 which is when you actually add other things into it 27 00:01:01,700 --> 00:01:04,060 to make a sort of more wholesome, hearty thing. 28 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:04,760 Okay. 29 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,000 Well, this is delightfully more than I was expecting. 30 00:01:07,380 --> 00:01:09,540 So, let's, let's dive into this just a little bit 31 00:01:09,540 --> 00:01:11,020 and then we'll get to the technical stuff. 32 00:01:11,020 --> 00:01:18,260 So, broth is a superset of stock and bone broth? 33 00:01:18,580 --> 00:01:20,540 Like, broth is the whole collection of things? 34 00:01:20,860 --> 00:01:21,080 Yeah. 35 00:01:21,260 --> 00:01:24,880 So, bone broth is just like a marketing term that people have added 36 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:30,320 so they can sell it as part of a diet that people will buy their, 37 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:32,360 like, body transformation books over. 38 00:01:32,740 --> 00:01:37,100 It's not really a separate thing from regular broth or stock. 39 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:37,700 Okay. 40 00:01:37,820 --> 00:01:38,020 Okay. 41 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:39,160 So, it's a... 42 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,540 They'll argue that the process is different 43 00:01:41,540 --> 00:01:44,960 and they'll put nutrients out of the bones with extra vinegar 44 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:46,940 and a bunch of other nonsense. 45 00:01:47,380 --> 00:01:49,560 But the science ain't there. 46 00:01:50,020 --> 00:01:50,360 I see. 47 00:01:50,420 --> 00:01:50,620 I see. 48 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:50,880 Okay. 49 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:51,200 Okay. 50 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,060 So, the mysticism aside, do you have... 51 00:01:55,060 --> 00:01:57,720 Is drinking broth, is that okay? 52 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:59,620 Is that a thing or is it just flavor? 53 00:01:59,860 --> 00:02:01,380 Like, what is a terrible idea? 54 00:02:01,460 --> 00:02:01,880 What do you think? 55 00:02:02,620 --> 00:02:05,220 If it's good enough for Baby Yoda, it's good enough for me. 56 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,120 When does the soup become a stew? 57 00:02:10,580 --> 00:02:16,300 I think it's a stew when there's more other stuff than there is soup. 58 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,300 The particulate water level is higher. 59 00:02:23,420 --> 00:02:24,260 Big chunks. 60 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,120 I think it's sort of like, I mean, 61 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:28,360 I guess everyone says, 62 00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:32,160 people say that the body is mostly made up of water, 63 00:02:32,380 --> 00:02:34,440 but we would not call the body water. 64 00:02:34,940 --> 00:02:37,100 There is like, it is more on the stew side, 65 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:38,560 philosophically thinking. 66 00:02:38,740 --> 00:02:41,240 I guess it's pre-stew. 67 00:02:41,980 --> 00:02:42,140 Yeah. 68 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,320 I guess I just figured it's when a fork comes into the equation. 69 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:45,600 You're in stew territory. 70 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,980 That's probably a good way to look at it. 71 00:02:48,980 --> 00:02:51,980 When you need to upgrade from a fork, 72 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:53,280 a spoon to a fork. 73 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,800 And I don't think a spork quite counts. 74 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:57,740 Well, this isn't Kentucky fried chicken. 75 00:02:58,140 --> 00:02:58,700 So, right. 76 00:02:59,000 --> 00:02:59,800 Spork's not welcome. 77 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:00,720 That's good. 78 00:03:00,780 --> 00:03:01,180 That's good. 79 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:01,760 Well, good. 80 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,500 I think we've covered the formal introductory part of the podcast 81 00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:09,200 where we talk about food or the weather. 82 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:09,700 So, that's good. 83 00:03:09,820 --> 00:03:12,460 So, Paul, why don't you introduce yourself? 84 00:03:13,500 --> 00:03:14,560 My name is Paul. 85 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,940 What do you do around here? 86 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:23,160 I'm on the developer advocacy team at, I guess, 87 00:03:23,340 --> 00:03:23,940 now VMware, 88 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,520 since the acquisition went through recently, 89 00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:28,320 previously pivotal. 90 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:37,780 And I sort of focus on Kubernetes and other more operations slash DevOps things 91 00:03:37,780 --> 00:03:47,140 as opposed to squiggly lines and periods and equal signs in Visual Studio Code 92 00:03:47,140 --> 00:03:49,220 or whatever we're using these days when we're writing code. 93 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:50,720 So, I'm a developer advocate, 94 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,560 but really I'm more of a ops advocate. 95 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:54,720 Well, you know, 96 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:56,340 they need advocating too. 97 00:03:56,620 --> 00:03:56,740 Yeah. 98 00:03:56,740 --> 00:03:59,960 That's what I always tell people is you do the ops stuff and the DevOps. 99 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:00,900 And of course, 100 00:04:01,020 --> 00:04:01,780 the Kubernetes, 101 00:04:02,140 --> 00:04:02,420 Kubernetes, 102 00:04:03,140 --> 00:04:04,240 the kubes, 103 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:05,040 all of that stuff. 104 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:06,660 The kub is very needy. 105 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:07,820 So, we definitely have some Kubernetes. 106 00:04:09,340 --> 00:04:12,900 So, I wanted to have you on to sort of kick off the year, 107 00:04:13,140 --> 00:04:16,020 talking about speaking of Kubernetes and operational stuff. 108 00:04:16,840 --> 00:04:18,420 And, you know, 109 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:19,700 I realized, 110 00:04:19,840 --> 00:04:20,640 well, you know, 111 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:21,840 I know you well, 112 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:23,580 but I knew it would be especially fun 113 00:04:23,580 --> 00:04:26,580 because I watched that video you did in Warsaw a while back. 114 00:04:27,620 --> 00:04:28,540 By a while back, 115 00:04:28,620 --> 00:04:29,520 I mean last month. 116 00:04:30,060 --> 00:04:31,020 So long ago. 117 00:04:31,820 --> 00:04:32,860 It seems like a long time ago. 118 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:33,560 But yeah, 119 00:04:33,660 --> 00:04:33,780 yeah, 120 00:04:33,780 --> 00:04:39,900 I hadn't seen you do the overall Kubernetes arc of everything. 121 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:41,740 And it was very good. 122 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:42,460 It was nice. 123 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:44,140 Everything kind of fit together well. 124 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:45,220 And, you know, 125 00:04:45,260 --> 00:04:46,920 you also got to do a speak in Warsaw, 126 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:48,020 which I'm sure was fun. 127 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:49,640 And I think I spoke in that same room. 128 00:04:49,740 --> 00:04:52,180 That's like in a big university building somewhere. 129 00:04:52,460 --> 00:04:53,340 Yeah, yeah, it was. 130 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:53,880 Yeah. 131 00:04:54,580 --> 00:04:54,980 Anyways, 132 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,180 so we all have only a couple little news items 133 00:04:58,180 --> 00:04:59,380 that I wanted to go over 134 00:04:59,380 --> 00:05:00,120 and just some pointers. 135 00:05:00,340 --> 00:05:01,640 And then we'll dive into, 136 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:02,300 you know, 137 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:03,520 Paul's exploration. 138 00:05:03,780 --> 00:05:04,580 As Paul mentioned, 139 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,300 I think it was on December 30th, 140 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:07,980 2019, 141 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,760 that VMware finalized its acquisition of Pivotal. 142 00:05:12,300 --> 00:05:13,800 So we're all VMware people. 143 00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:17,120 I think we all have VMware email addresses as well, 144 00:05:17,180 --> 00:05:18,080 which is very exciting. 145 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:21,480 We'll have to trade with each other what they are. 146 00:05:21,820 --> 00:05:23,940 It's always fun when you join a large company 147 00:05:23,940 --> 00:05:25,840 to see what your email address ends up being. 148 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:27,320 And as you can imagine, 149 00:05:27,460 --> 00:05:28,580 as another thing, 150 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,320 I've been doing a lot of figuring out 151 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,000 what's going on in VMware world. 152 00:05:32,180 --> 00:05:33,640 And somehow I stumbled upon, 153 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,160 I'll put a link to it in the show notes, 154 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,460 which we post at pivotal.io slash podcast. 155 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,240 Maybe it'll be another URL sometime in the future. 156 00:05:41,380 --> 00:05:42,480 But there's a good video from, 157 00:05:42,540 --> 00:05:44,820 I think it's like VMware tech days 158 00:05:44,820 --> 00:05:46,860 that goes over what Project Pacific is. 159 00:05:47,140 --> 00:05:47,360 And like, 160 00:05:47,740 --> 00:05:48,600 I think there's, 161 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:49,800 it's for me, 162 00:05:49,860 --> 00:05:52,180 been one of the more mysterious sort of things 163 00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:54,380 that VMware has been doing in the Kubernetes space. 164 00:05:54,460 --> 00:05:55,320 But this thing finally, 165 00:05:55,460 --> 00:05:55,800 this thing, 166 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:56,560 this video finally, 167 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,720 I think has a really good technical explanation 168 00:05:58,720 --> 00:05:59,760 of what's going on there 169 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,640 if you wanted to dive into it more. 170 00:06:01,780 --> 00:06:03,040 So I would refer to you to that. 171 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:04,740 And I think it's from one of the project, 172 00:06:04,740 --> 00:06:05,620 product managers. 173 00:06:05,820 --> 00:06:07,760 And then also we and Forrester 174 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,180 released this thing called a total economic impact 175 00:06:11,180 --> 00:06:12,180 or T-E-I, 176 00:06:12,820 --> 00:06:14,820 which unfortunately it's too bad 177 00:06:14,820 --> 00:06:16,460 they couldn't forget how to make it spell Thai 178 00:06:16,460 --> 00:06:17,320 because you can't really, 179 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,080 you can't really like pronounce T. 180 00:06:19,540 --> 00:06:21,240 How would you pronounce that if you have, 181 00:06:21,380 --> 00:06:22,140 I can't think of a, 182 00:06:22,220 --> 00:06:22,500 I guess, 183 00:06:22,660 --> 00:06:25,040 I guess Terry in French, 184 00:06:25,220 --> 00:06:26,660 but that's a T-H-E-I. 185 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,560 There's gotta be some way you would play. 186 00:06:29,420 --> 00:06:29,740 Yeah. 187 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:30,400 Yeah. 188 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:31,160 Anyhow, 189 00:06:31,620 --> 00:06:33,400 that's a report that we have out. 190 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:34,000 You can read. 191 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:35,340 And it goes over. 192 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:35,720 I think, 193 00:06:35,780 --> 00:06:37,780 I think if I remember it's based on like five 194 00:06:37,780 --> 00:06:39,420 or six or eight or so customers 195 00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:40,940 that Forrester interviewed. 196 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:42,080 Something in that area. 197 00:06:42,100 --> 00:06:43,340 Cause we did one last year 198 00:06:43,340 --> 00:06:44,880 or what they did one last year. 199 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,240 And it kind of goes over the, 200 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,420 the improvements that you get, 201 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:50,480 the return on investment 202 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:51,720 and productivity and stuff. 203 00:06:51,780 --> 00:06:53,320 And it's fun reading through. 204 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:54,480 It's always nice to have 205 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:55,960 aggregated numbers like that. 206 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:56,180 Yeah. 207 00:06:56,180 --> 00:06:57,500 It's fairly realistic. 208 00:06:57,500 --> 00:06:57,740 I mean, 209 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,300 they'd kind of create an aggregate customer 210 00:06:59,300 --> 00:07:00,220 out of all the interviews 211 00:07:00,220 --> 00:07:02,100 and talk about the general benefits you get. 212 00:07:02,140 --> 00:07:03,240 And it's real anecdotes. 213 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:04,100 It's not made up stuff. 214 00:07:04,100 --> 00:07:04,440 So it's, 215 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:05,680 it's actually a pretty useful read, 216 00:07:05,740 --> 00:07:06,160 as you say. 217 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:07,060 So with that, 218 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:08,200 Paul, 219 00:07:09,260 --> 00:07:09,700 Kubernetes, 220 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:12,000 give us an overview. 221 00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:12,600 Wow. 222 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:12,980 Okay. 223 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:14,200 An overview of Kubernetes. 224 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:14,780 Yeah. 225 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:15,400 What is it? 226 00:07:15,540 --> 00:07:16,100 It's a thing. 227 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:17,760 What runs containers for you? 228 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:18,540 See, 229 00:07:18,900 --> 00:07:19,740 that's a good start. 230 00:07:19,820 --> 00:07:21,100 This is one of the conclusions. 231 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:22,480 As, 232 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:23,100 as I was, 233 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:23,420 you know, 234 00:07:23,460 --> 00:07:24,220 watching your, 235 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:24,960 your overview, 236 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:26,760 watching yet another overview of Kubernetes, 237 00:07:26,900 --> 00:07:27,380 I was like, 238 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:27,580 you know, 239 00:07:27,580 --> 00:07:28,160 as always, 240 00:07:28,660 --> 00:07:30,240 I complexify things too much. 241 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:31,560 There's a slide you had where you're like, 242 00:07:31,620 --> 00:07:31,720 oh, 243 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,600 it's really easy to run this on your laptop. 244 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,540 And then here's a bunch of servers. 245 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:36,980 And now you need to do that. 246 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:38,460 And it's sort of like, 247 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,020 it's after all these years, 248 00:07:40,540 --> 00:07:44,680 I often forget that simple jump that like the whole point is like, 249 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,740 you need to run like thousands of these and you know, 250 00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:50,060 that seems like a hassle. 251 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:51,180 Have you changed your opinion? 252 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:51,380 I mean, 253 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:52,400 if we go back to the very beginning, 254 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:54,220 why do people care about containers? 255 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:54,500 I mean, 256 00:07:54,500 --> 00:07:55,580 we've been talking about it for years, 257 00:07:55,660 --> 00:07:58,660 but has your thinking evolved at all about even in the first place, 258 00:07:58,660 --> 00:07:59,580 like why containerize? 259 00:07:59,780 --> 00:08:00,000 So, 260 00:08:00,100 --> 00:08:00,300 I mean, 261 00:08:00,340 --> 00:08:02,760 I think the value of containers, 262 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:03,340 especially, 263 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:03,760 you know, 264 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:04,040 the, 265 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,120 the canonical, 266 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:05,600 you know, 267 00:08:05,660 --> 00:08:12,440 Docker image version of containers is the ease of building and the ease of 268 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:12,820 sharing. 269 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,160 I think that kind of trumps most of the other things, 270 00:08:17,340 --> 00:08:22,420 especially now we have a bunch of options around the lightweight VMs that 271 00:08:22,420 --> 00:08:23,960 behave like containers. 272 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:26,380 And I know, 273 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:26,960 I mean, 274 00:08:27,260 --> 00:08:29,100 I think 12 months ago, 275 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:33,100 I kind of wrote a snarky blog post about the future of Kubernetes being 276 00:08:33,100 --> 00:08:34,100 lightweight VMs. 277 00:08:35,340 --> 00:08:41,800 And I still feel that there's a strong place there because there's still a lot 278 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:48,860 of angst and concern about the real secure isolation of containers and what that looks 279 00:08:48,860 --> 00:08:50,500 like in a multi-tenant world. 280 00:08:50,940 --> 00:08:58,940 And I think it would be a lot of work to make a multi-tenant safe container 281 00:08:58,940 --> 00:08:59,620 hypervisor, 282 00:09:00,020 --> 00:09:08,620 whereas a VM hypervisor is more or less multi-tenant safe from the outset. 283 00:09:08,620 --> 00:09:10,840 And being able to, 284 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:17,460 instead of having a bunch of servers with hypervisors with a container engine, 285 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:19,100 sort of all stacked up, 286 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:24,140 being able to just have the Kubernetes control plane and a bunch of hypervisors, 287 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:26,040 sorry, 288 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:27,760 multiple Kubernetes control planes, 289 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,960 either sharing that pool of hypervisors and sharing those resources from a 290 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:34,840 infrastructure point of view, 291 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,460 from a cloud provider point of view, 292 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:37,840 even from a, 293 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:38,560 you know, 294 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:39,860 inside your data center, 295 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,220 private cloud point of view, 296 00:09:41,820 --> 00:09:48,360 having that brings a lot more potential for higher density of, 297 00:09:48,580 --> 00:09:48,740 you know, 298 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,020 more bin packing of your workloads. 299 00:09:51,680 --> 00:09:52,080 So, 300 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:52,380 and I, 301 00:09:52,380 --> 00:09:54,680 and I think that bin packing side of things, 302 00:09:54,820 --> 00:09:57,720 the better density is probably the killer app there, 303 00:09:57,820 --> 00:10:02,180 more so than the security and the multi-tenancy. 304 00:10:02,660 --> 00:10:04,620 So I still think we're going to see it go that way. 305 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,840 But I still think we're going to continue to see the, 306 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:09,660 that Docker file, 307 00:10:09,980 --> 00:10:14,520 Docker hub type system for building and sharing. 308 00:10:15,260 --> 00:10:18,420 But building and sharing for you are the kind of main things. 309 00:10:18,980 --> 00:10:19,120 Yeah. 310 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,600 So it'll still be effectively a container to you or I, 311 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,980 but it may be a lightweight VM when it's actually running somewhere. 312 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,480 And that's going to be an implementation detail that we don't even care about. 313 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:30,740 Yeah. 314 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,900 That's a good way to start wrapping our hands around the impossibly open-ended 315 00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:36,680 question of so Kubernetes, 316 00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:38,520 which is as, 317 00:10:38,860 --> 00:10:40,100 so, 318 00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:40,600 so I, 319 00:10:41,020 --> 00:10:41,860 as, 320 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:42,460 as you're saying, 321 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:45,860 like the two valuable things that you get, 322 00:10:45,900 --> 00:10:47,220 the reason you do it is, 323 00:10:47,340 --> 00:10:49,060 is I guess that building and sharing. 324 00:10:49,260 --> 00:10:50,040 I mean, 325 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:50,260 is, 326 00:10:50,260 --> 00:10:50,740 is that, 327 00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:51,680 and, 328 00:10:51,740 --> 00:10:53,020 and what is the sharing part of it? 329 00:10:53,020 --> 00:10:54,760 Cause I guess the building part is just like, 330 00:10:54,940 --> 00:11:00,220 it's easy to package up your software to run basically. 331 00:11:00,220 --> 00:11:01,700 And it's fast. 332 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,200 And then what's the sharing part? 333 00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:06,680 The sharing is the Docker push, 334 00:11:06,780 --> 00:11:08,640 Docker pull that you do to a, 335 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,520 either the Docker hub up in the public or a private registry like Harbor, 336 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,060 where it becomes very easy to say, 337 00:11:16,180 --> 00:11:17,100 here's my app. 338 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:18,040 Anyone can run it. 339 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,660 And then anyone can go, 340 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:20,980 Hey, 341 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,340 I'm looking for Bob's WordPress image. 342 00:11:25,580 --> 00:11:26,020 There it is. 343 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,680 I can grab it and run it without having to really think about it. 344 00:11:29,180 --> 00:11:30,720 I think that's the difference, 345 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:30,920 right? 346 00:11:30,980 --> 00:11:31,100 I mean, 347 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:31,920 Coté from you and I, 348 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:32,400 we're all of us, 349 00:11:32,460 --> 00:11:33,300 we're all old people now. 350 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:33,680 I mean, 351 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:34,700 from the years ago of, 352 00:11:34,900 --> 00:11:38,000 here's 20 set of instructions to get this thing up and running. 353 00:11:38,060 --> 00:11:38,960 I got to start this up, 354 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:39,540 install this, 355 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:40,320 configure that. 356 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:40,600 And Hey, 357 00:11:40,620 --> 00:11:41,860 it's different than two weeks ago. 358 00:11:41,860 --> 00:11:42,940 Cause something else changed. 359 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:44,780 Cause everything is packed together. 360 00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:45,260 Right. 361 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:46,060 Probably at that point, 362 00:11:46,460 --> 00:11:49,400 me running out of my machine will be completely identical to you doing it. 363 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:50,320 Cause all the dependencies, 364 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,140 all the config is literally wrapped up in one immutable thing. 365 00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:54,100 Yeah. 366 00:11:54,260 --> 00:11:54,480 Yeah. 367 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:54,880 And if you, 368 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,680 if you ever built VM images using a tool like a packer, 369 00:12:00,180 --> 00:12:01,160 you know, 370 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,000 that packer is probably about the best you get and it's still quite hard, 371 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:05,400 right? 372 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,020 Cause you need to spend a lot of time figuring out which base OS, 373 00:12:09,020 --> 00:12:11,960 and then you basically running either a big, 374 00:12:12,020 --> 00:12:15,620 long script or you're running chef or puppet or something to build it all up. 375 00:12:15,620 --> 00:12:18,220 And it's going to be packaged and it's going to be shipped up to your cloud 376 00:12:18,220 --> 00:12:18,720 provider, 377 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:19,600 et cetera. 378 00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:25,300 And so that was quite a lot of work for just any, 379 00:12:25,460 --> 00:12:30,500 anyone to do for people that building OSes isn't in their wheelhouse. 380 00:12:31,220 --> 00:12:36,220 Whereas with Docker and the ability to build on top of other people's Docker 381 00:12:36,220 --> 00:12:36,660 images. 382 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:38,340 Now I can be like, 383 00:12:38,620 --> 00:12:38,760 well, 384 00:12:38,780 --> 00:12:44,560 I just need a Java image and then I know how to put a jar in my, 385 00:12:44,660 --> 00:12:45,140 you know, 386 00:12:45,620 --> 00:12:46,880 Java image. 387 00:12:47,020 --> 00:12:51,140 So I only need to know the copy command in the Docker file versus knowing 388 00:12:51,140 --> 00:12:54,720 how to build an entire OS from using the Docker file. 389 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:55,460 As you were mentioning, 390 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:55,980 you know, 391 00:12:56,060 --> 00:12:57,740 you got all your bin packing concerns, 392 00:12:57,740 --> 00:13:01,500 like sticking as many things in a constrained space as possible, 393 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:02,600 metaphorically speaking. 394 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:03,880 And like how much, 395 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,900 how much of like the container of the value from the container Kubernetes world 396 00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:10,140 do you think comes from that? 397 00:13:10,860 --> 00:13:11,300 Like, 398 00:13:11,420 --> 00:13:15,600 is that like a huge deal or is it just like a fun side of it? 399 00:13:15,620 --> 00:13:21,500 I think it's a fun side effect and I'm not sure it's even as real as a lot of 400 00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:22,440 people think it is. 401 00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:24,300 You know, 402 00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:27,960 there is definitely more overhead running VMs and there is running containers. 403 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,140 But at the end of the day, 404 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:35,640 most of the overhead is in whatever the application you're running is itself. 405 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:37,800 And you're not reducing that. 406 00:13:38,020 --> 00:13:42,780 So you might have a couple of percent here or there because of what the VM takes up. 407 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,820 But I don't think that it's really that, 408 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:47,080 you know, 409 00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:47,660 they used to talk, 410 00:13:48,060 --> 00:13:48,320 you know, 411 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,060 tens of VMs or thousands of containers. 412 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:52,120 I don't think that's real. 413 00:13:53,820 --> 00:13:58,400 That something like that might be real with serverless or, 414 00:13:58,400 --> 00:13:59,720 you know, 415 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:06,220 K native where you have like a container on demand based on like web traffic or something that might become more real. 416 00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:08,820 But you're making other sacrifices there. 417 00:14:09,860 --> 00:14:21,040 So I don't think the bin packing versus VMs is really that big a difference. 418 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:22,220 And then, 419 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:22,460 of course, 420 00:14:22,540 --> 00:14:26,240 Kubernetes and its scheduler have its own way woes. 421 00:14:27,460 --> 00:14:33,000 Kubernetes doesn't really try and optimize the bin packing. 422 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,860 So it will just distribute VM. 423 00:14:36,220 --> 00:14:39,400 It will distribute the containers to say the worker nodes that are there. 424 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,180 If you create new worker nodes, 425 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:47,620 it's not intelligent enough to redistribute them to more evenly fill those machines. 426 00:14:47,620 --> 00:14:48,600 And so, 427 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:49,040 you know, 428 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:49,520 I don't, 429 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,680 I think other systems probably have better bin packing. 430 00:14:54,160 --> 00:15:06,580 Like I know VMware does a really good job of moving workloads around to optimize the hardware using Vmotion and stuff like that. 431 00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:07,420 Whereas, 432 00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:07,780 you know, 433 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,160 the default Kubernetes schedulers don't do that. 434 00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:14,060 There's no reason you couldn't write your own scheduler to do that. 435 00:15:14,060 --> 00:15:18,640 But if you're at the point where you're rewriting your own Kubernetes scheduler, 436 00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:22,420 you've probably solved every other problem in computer science, 437 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:23,300 including DNS. 438 00:15:25,180 --> 00:15:27,100 So that brings up another, 439 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:28,480 another thing I'm always curious about. 440 00:15:28,580 --> 00:15:32,560 So tell me if I get this inaccurate just to like lay out a summary. 441 00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:32,860 So, 442 00:15:32,980 --> 00:15:33,200 you know, 443 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:34,380 on your laptop, 444 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:35,360 you build a, 445 00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:36,840 you put your junk in a container, 446 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:37,540 your stuff. 447 00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:38,620 It's not junk. 448 00:15:38,620 --> 00:15:40,900 It's wonderful handcrafted things, 449 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,340 some software you've written and it's packaged in a container. 450 00:15:44,340 --> 00:15:45,080 And now, 451 00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:45,760 you know, 452 00:15:45,780 --> 00:15:52,340 your buddies can access it and do whatever you can run it as basically just an application that's containerized. 453 00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:54,340 I didn't really say very much there, 454 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:55,260 but we'll move on. 455 00:15:55,740 --> 00:15:56,760 And then you're like, 456 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:57,060 ah, 457 00:15:57,140 --> 00:15:59,080 but then also I want to run like, 458 00:15:59,140 --> 00:15:59,440 you know, 459 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,820 500 instances of this and it's like a multi-tiered distributed application. 460 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,960 So it's got all these different components running around. 461 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:11,200 So I have like 50 containerized things that I have to orchestrate running. 462 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,320 So now I need a whole other system called Kubernetes. 463 00:16:13,460 --> 00:16:14,420 I need an orchestrator. 464 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:17,360 And what Kubernetes will do is it'll let me specify like, 465 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:18,520 here's the, 466 00:16:18,860 --> 00:16:21,280 I don't know what words people use for this, 467 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:27,340 but like if I were to draw a diagram of how all these 50 things are related and the dependencies that they have and which one, 468 00:16:27,460 --> 00:16:28,360 what each one does, 469 00:16:28,580 --> 00:16:29,260 the architecture, 470 00:16:29,580 --> 00:16:30,960 here's what it looks like. 471 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,320 And here's kind of like, 472 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:40,160 I need something to go off and like place all of these on various computational things on the VMs running and make sure that they're in a state that I like. 473 00:16:40,260 --> 00:16:40,400 And, 474 00:16:40,620 --> 00:16:40,800 you know, 475 00:16:40,860 --> 00:16:43,200 if there's drift from my desired configuration, 476 00:16:43,380 --> 00:16:46,920 like blow them away and restart them and then make sure that they can do the networking, 477 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:48,000 talking with each other. 478 00:16:48,540 --> 00:16:51,020 And then maybe they also need some storage and, 479 00:16:51,020 --> 00:16:51,780 and it's sort of, 480 00:16:51,940 --> 00:16:52,100 you know, 481 00:16:52,460 --> 00:16:54,180 so Kubernetes does a lot of that stuff. 482 00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:55,460 However, 483 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,620 is that a good, 484 00:16:57,660 --> 00:16:59,500 a good summary from the get go? 485 00:16:59,580 --> 00:17:01,360 Like what did I hand wave over? 486 00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:01,520 Yeah, 487 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:03,100 I think so. 488 00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:07,460 I kind of like to think of Kubernetes as effectively an IS for containers. 489 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,520 When you think about any cloud, 490 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:11,060 you're saying, 491 00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:12,180 I want CPU, 492 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:13,140 I want memory, 493 00:17:13,340 --> 00:17:14,060 I want disk, 494 00:17:14,180 --> 00:17:14,880 I want network. 495 00:17:15,660 --> 00:17:18,180 And you're requesting the exact same things with Kubernetes, 496 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,520 just for containers instead of VMs. 497 00:17:21,020 --> 00:17:21,540 Um, 498 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:23,500 you've mentioned describing your, 499 00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:25,240 like your architecture. 500 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:26,200 You don't really do that. 501 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,640 You describe each individual piece. 502 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,640 So you still need to keep your architecture in mind. 503 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:33,920 Uh, 504 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:42,180 it does blur when you get into service meshes where you do kind of start describing your architecture or you let your architecture, 505 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:43,240 um, 506 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:44,680 uh, 507 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,360 sort of self-describe itself just by a set of conventions. 508 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:50,600 Yeah. 509 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:50,900 No, 510 00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:50,980 no, 511 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:51,040 no, 512 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:51,520 no, 513 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:51,620 no, 514 00:17:51,620 --> 00:17:51,620 no, 515 00:17:51,620 --> 00:17:51,620 no, 516 00:17:51,620 --> 00:17:53,420 that's exactly like the blurry line I'm, 517 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:54,260 I'm interested in. 518 00:17:54,260 --> 00:17:54,440 Right. 519 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:54,960 Is like, 520 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:55,300 so, 521 00:17:55,380 --> 00:17:55,760 so what, 522 00:17:55,860 --> 00:18:00,300 what does Kubernetes not do along those areas? 523 00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:00,600 Right. 524 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:00,860 Like, 525 00:18:01,260 --> 00:18:01,460 like, 526 00:18:01,540 --> 00:18:01,680 because, 527 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:01,880 and, 528 00:18:01,940 --> 00:18:04,020 and you brought up one thing that I think it doesn't do, 529 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,040 which is basically like, 530 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,320 uh, 531 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,140 a service mesh and, 532 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:09,680 and my, 533 00:18:09,860 --> 00:18:10,340 you know, 534 00:18:10,420 --> 00:18:12,200 a service mesh is basically like, 535 00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:15,780 I've got all these sub components and systems in my application, 536 00:18:16,220 --> 00:18:17,200 whatever that may be. 537 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,060 And they need to work with each other. 538 00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:21,280 And the service mesh does, 539 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,280 that's the outcome it achieves basically. 540 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:24,000 Uh, 541 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:24,500 you know, 542 00:18:24,540 --> 00:18:27,740 being able to look up services and having all of them talk with each other and so 543 00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:28,500 forth and so on. 544 00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:29,360 And like, 545 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,240 that's not part of Kubernetes, 546 00:18:31,460 --> 00:18:31,640 right? 547 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:32,240 Or is it, 548 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:33,540 or how does that layer in? 549 00:18:33,860 --> 00:18:36,000 It's a tough question. 550 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:36,940 I think. 551 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,780 A lot of us aren't really sure where the demarcation should be. 552 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:43,680 Uh, 553 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,160 and Kubernetes has been very cautious about how much it takes on. 554 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:48,120 Um, 555 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:49,660 because it does try and follow that, 556 00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:49,960 you know, 557 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,220 do one thing and do it well. 558 00:18:51,620 --> 00:18:51,980 Uh, 559 00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:53,680 and you can see that through its architecture, 560 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:54,420 um, 561 00:18:54,460 --> 00:18:56,700 through how it doesn't do a lot. 562 00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:59,720 And then it uses controllers to do all, 563 00:18:59,860 --> 00:19:00,580 a lot of the, 564 00:19:00,580 --> 00:19:01,200 uh, 565 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:02,220 value added stuff. 566 00:19:02,740 --> 00:19:03,180 Uh, 567 00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:05,600 and then things like Istio come along. 568 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:07,620 There are a set of custom controllers. 569 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,880 That do even more advanced things. 570 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:11,880 I think as we. 571 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,560 Develop opinions that are strong, 572 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:16,920 that work well for everyone, 573 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,900 they then start look at like moving towards being part of Kubernetes itself. 574 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:23,120 All right. 575 00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:28,120 Certainly anything that's like value adding on top of your application is 576 00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:31,200 generally outside of Kubernetes, 577 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:32,000 right? 578 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,480 So Kubernetes is below your application. 579 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:35,800 Um, 580 00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:40,260 Istio is kind of in between and above your application. 581 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:41,400 Uh, 582 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,360 and so I think that's definitely outside the purview of Kubernetes, 583 00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:45,280 uh, 584 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:46,680 especially say Istio, 585 00:19:46,740 --> 00:19:50,220 it's like actually modifying your application from the inside, 586 00:19:50,220 --> 00:19:51,020 right? 587 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,580 Cause it's putting these sidecars in and it's doing these weird network 588 00:19:54,580 --> 00:19:57,620 tricks to force your application to talk through those sidecars. 589 00:19:58,280 --> 00:19:58,720 Uh, 590 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,340 so anything that's actually manipulating the behavior of your, 591 00:20:02,340 --> 00:20:03,020 uh, 592 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:03,640 application, 593 00:20:04,380 --> 00:20:08,780 a should not be done by a platform that potentially someone else is 594 00:20:08,780 --> 00:20:09,100 running. 595 00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:10,020 Uh, 596 00:20:10,020 --> 00:20:15,320 and also be in my opinion should be done with very thoughtful 597 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:16,120 consideration, 598 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:17,260 uh, 599 00:20:17,260 --> 00:20:20,480 because now your app doesn't behave the way you asked it to. 600 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,200 And therefore what, 601 00:20:23,340 --> 00:20:24,300 what things is it, 602 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:24,880 you know, 603 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,160 what strange obscure bugs could be introduced that might surprise us 604 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:29,640 later on. 605 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:31,460 I like that rule of thumb. 606 00:20:31,620 --> 00:20:33,000 I like that rule of thumb that if, 607 00:20:33,180 --> 00:20:36,600 if you're modifying how your application works, 608 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,940 it probably shouldn't be in the Kubernetes layer, 609 00:20:40,140 --> 00:20:40,620 like, 610 00:20:40,820 --> 00:20:41,060 and, 611 00:20:41,180 --> 00:20:43,740 and probably being an operative word there that like, 612 00:20:43,980 --> 00:20:44,220 you know, 613 00:20:44,220 --> 00:20:46,420 maybe there's something that you would put in that layer, 614 00:20:46,580 --> 00:20:46,980 but like, 615 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,540 it's likely that it's something else you, 616 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:50,720 you would add on top of it. 617 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:51,120 Cause that's, 618 00:20:51,180 --> 00:20:51,400 that's, 619 00:20:51,580 --> 00:20:53,420 that's pretty clear about where the, 620 00:20:53,420 --> 00:20:53,680 uh, 621 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,680 the cut line should be. 622 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:54,920 Yeah. 623 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:55,500 When you do that, 624 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:55,640 I mean, 625 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:56,880 one thing I want to back up on Paul, 626 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:57,700 cause you mentioned, 627 00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:59,400 I like the IS for containers. 628 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:00,320 I think that's a good thing. 629 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,200 When Coté was pushing on kind of the architecture piece, 630 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:04,460 I mean, 631 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,480 it's still true that people say a container should be one process, 632 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:07,720 right? 633 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,340 You shouldn't be jamming a bunch of different, 634 00:21:09,340 --> 00:21:11,980 like a whole multi-tier architecture into a container, 635 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:13,440 although you physically could, 636 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:13,940 I guess, 637 00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:15,780 but that's still the rule of thumb, 638 00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:15,960 right? 639 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,380 That you should be putting one process. 640 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,700 You will have more components in your architecture than a traditional, 641 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,740 maybe three VMs representing each tier. 642 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:24,440 Am I right? 643 00:21:25,540 --> 00:21:25,900 Yeah, 644 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:26,340 absolutely. 645 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,160 And actually that's one of the smart things that Kubernetes did with the pod 646 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,480 concept is the pod is your, 647 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:35,840 like your workload, 648 00:21:36,020 --> 00:21:36,700 not your container, 649 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:37,360 right? 650 00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:40,380 And so the pod can run more than one container. 651 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,520 And so the pod basically brings up the actual execution environment for your 652 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:46,880 container. 653 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,240 So it brings up the C groups, 654 00:21:48,420 --> 00:21:48,760 et cetera. 655 00:21:49,740 --> 00:21:52,660 And then your various containers share those things. 656 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,320 So they share the network namespace. 657 00:21:54,420 --> 00:21:55,340 They share the IP addresses. 658 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,760 They share volumes. 659 00:21:58,760 --> 00:21:59,720 If you have volumes. 660 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,380 And so that allows you if you need to have more than one container for your 661 00:22:04,380 --> 00:22:04,860 application. 662 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:12,220 The canonical example of course is PHP applications where you have PHP FPM and 663 00:22:12,220 --> 00:22:17,860 you have NGINX and they're usually sharing a socket over a file system. 664 00:22:18,980 --> 00:22:22,440 And so you would run those in the same pod in different containers, 665 00:22:23,140 --> 00:22:26,640 sharing a volume or sharing local hosts for communication. 666 00:22:27,540 --> 00:22:29,560 But many architectures you'd have multiple pods, 667 00:22:29,620 --> 00:22:29,800 right? 668 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:30,980 In a traditional app. 669 00:22:32,140 --> 00:22:32,340 Yeah, 670 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:32,820 exactly. 671 00:22:32,980 --> 00:22:34,220 So if you were like, 672 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:35,380 if we're WordPress, 673 00:22:35,660 --> 00:22:39,420 you might have PHP and NGINX in the one pod, 674 00:22:39,820 --> 00:22:43,400 but you certainly wouldn't put my SQL in that same pod because it's not part of 675 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:43,960 that, 676 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,160 that piece of the architecture. 677 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,940 It's not that like atomic scalable unit. 678 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:52,120 And so that's important though, 679 00:22:52,140 --> 00:22:52,760 because as you said, 680 00:22:52,820 --> 00:22:52,920 right, 681 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:53,200 you're, 682 00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:55,960 you're imposing your architecture still onto this system. 683 00:22:56,120 --> 00:22:57,520 It's not doing it for you. 684 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,700 So when someone looks at those primitives, 685 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:01,160 they have to do this, 686 00:23:01,220 --> 00:23:01,340 right? 687 00:23:01,380 --> 00:23:01,500 Right. 688 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:04,260 I can still make horrible mistakes in this layout. 689 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:04,480 No. 690 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,040 And so how do I lay this out? 691 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,020 And no YAML is the language of, 692 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:09,480 of love and of Kubernetes. 693 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,120 So how am I using YAML? 694 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:12,300 Yeah. 695 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,020 Pause for Paul to smile. 696 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:17,780 How do you use that to lay out? 697 00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:18,040 I mean, 698 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:18,780 lay it out for us, 699 00:23:18,820 --> 00:23:18,920 right? 700 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:20,520 Like though I'm an architect or I'm a developer. 701 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:21,920 Now I've got a bunch of containers. 702 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,020 I'm ready to deploy. 703 00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:24,360 What's my next step? 704 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:25,860 How do I think about those lines? 705 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,640 How do I think about what goes in pods? 706 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:28,160 How do I, 707 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:29,520 how do I do this correctly? 708 00:23:30,620 --> 00:23:31,020 Yeah. 709 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:37,360 So you think of a pod as your like a canonical unit of scale, 710 00:23:37,460 --> 00:23:37,720 right? 711 00:23:37,780 --> 00:23:40,400 So if you've got a traditional three tier app, 712 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:41,600 it's simple. 713 00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:43,840 You have three pods or, 714 00:23:44,020 --> 00:23:44,180 you know, 715 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,280 three replica sets or three deployments, 716 00:23:46,340 --> 00:23:46,540 right? 717 00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:52,140 Then you have to connect them together. 718 00:23:52,140 --> 00:23:56,820 So you have services and generally if it's one pod talking another pod, 719 00:23:56,940 --> 00:23:59,120 you just have the default service, 720 00:23:59,180 --> 00:24:01,920 which gives you a cluster IP. 721 00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:07,260 And that basically becomes the IP address that you would address a given pod. 722 00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:09,720 So you assign a service to a pod. 723 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:11,380 So it's WordPress, 724 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:11,960 the, 725 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:12,420 the, 726 00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:13,160 the pod, 727 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:14,600 therefore you have WordPress, 728 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:15,300 the service, 729 00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:17,440 and that gets that IP address. 730 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,260 And that IP address is accessible from anywhere in the cluster. 731 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,900 And it also inherits a DNS name from kube DNS. 732 00:24:26,180 --> 00:24:27,360 So if it's called WordPress, 733 00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:34,400 you now have a DNS name called WordPress that any pod can access on that name 734 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,360 and get to your application. 735 00:24:36,780 --> 00:24:37,860 If it's a replica, 736 00:24:37,860 --> 00:24:40,900 a replica set or a deployment where you have more than one copy, 737 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,880 it low balances those for you. 738 00:24:43,660 --> 00:24:45,400 And so you've got your WordPress, 739 00:24:45,820 --> 00:24:46,740 then you need your database. 740 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:49,840 So you have a WordPress service. 741 00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:51,100 You have a database service. 742 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,820 Your database is probably called a database or WordPress dash database. 743 00:24:56,180 --> 00:24:59,300 And so in your WordPress configuration, 744 00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,580 you can actually hard code the, 745 00:25:02,580 --> 00:25:06,480 the path to your database as WordPress dash database, 746 00:25:06,620 --> 00:25:07,340 because you, 747 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:07,800 you know, 748 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,120 that's what your service is always going to be called. 749 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:13,120 And then, 750 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,240 so that's how you get the WordPress and the database talking. 751 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,480 So now you have a working application, 752 00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:23,860 but you want someone outside to be able to access it. 753 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,140 So the WordPress service, 754 00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:29,380 you need to elevate that to be either a node port, 755 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:34,520 which gives you an ephemeral port on your worker nodes that will 756 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,940 NAT through to it, 757 00:25:36,060 --> 00:25:39,540 or you use a service type of load balancer, 758 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,240 which will actually configure a load balancer to balance it down. 759 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:50,780 And that gives you a static IP and a sensible port of 80 and the ability to then add DNS to it 760 00:25:50,780 --> 00:25:53,160 and have a general purpose. 761 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,440 This is how you access a website on the internets. 762 00:25:57,420 --> 00:26:02,320 And then you have a step further where you have a bunch of apps working together, 763 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,040 and you might use an ingress controller, 764 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:11,300 which lets you put those layer seven rules about which service should be communicated with 765 00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:12,960 based on like the URL path. 766 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,800 And that sort of gives you your kind of one branch of an application. 767 00:26:19,260 --> 00:26:20,840 Obviously WordPress is not a microservice. 768 00:26:21,860 --> 00:26:24,960 But if you have a bunch of microservices, 769 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,360 they would talk to each other via those cluster IPs, 770 00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:29,760 via their DNS. 771 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,960 And so you're getting that very rudimentary service discovery from DNS. 772 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:42,720 And that's usually enough for a very basic set of microservices where there's not a lot of complication. 773 00:26:43,180 --> 00:26:45,480 You know what everything is, and you can just run it. 774 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,400 When you get to more complex scenarios, 775 00:26:50,300 --> 00:27:01,680 that's when you need to look towards things like service meshes where you don't necessarily need to know the entire architecture for what's going on. 776 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:09,680 You can kind of let the service mesh help you with more advanced routing, more advanced service discovery. 777 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:17,620 And then you get some added things like if you really want TLS communication between each of your microservices, 778 00:27:17,620 --> 00:27:21,500 if you want cert-based authentication between your microservices, 779 00:27:22,420 --> 00:27:25,860 you can do those things through a service mesh. 780 00:27:26,820 --> 00:27:29,660 Obviously, there's a whole heap of considerations about latency, 781 00:27:29,660 --> 00:27:36,220 if you're going to have some external process injecting TLS communication on top of your application. 782 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,240 But those are all things. 783 00:27:38,340 --> 00:27:42,000 If you're at that point, you're probably thinking about those effects anyway. 784 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,760 If not, well, you'll get woken up at 3 a.m. every day. 785 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:51,840 I mean, it seems like the two things you really have to grok in this is kind of the placement questions of like, 786 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:52,640 where do I stick things? 787 00:27:52,660 --> 00:27:55,900 Because there's replicas, there's tiering, and then network connectivity. 788 00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:59,260 Like, I feel like I have to know both of those things to be dangerous here. 789 00:27:59,380 --> 00:28:02,940 So in a traditional, I don't know, whether it's a startup or a big company, 790 00:28:03,820 --> 00:28:05,080 who's doing these things? 791 00:28:05,340 --> 00:28:07,280 Like, maybe I'll be fired before the end of the podcast, 792 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,000 but are developers supposed to use Kubernetes? 793 00:28:09,460 --> 00:28:12,500 Or realistically, should I stop when I built a container 794 00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:15,980 and then some other mysterious person comes in and lays this stuff out right? 795 00:28:16,180 --> 00:28:20,440 Yeah, look, assuming you're not a brand new startup that has never computed before, 796 00:28:20,860 --> 00:28:27,820 you probably already have someone or something that's managing your infrastructure, right? 797 00:28:27,820 --> 00:28:34,980 So whether you're an enterprise or a startup, someone is clicking around in the Amazon UI 798 00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:37,800 or someone is using CloudFormation or someone is using Terraform, 799 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:43,300 whoever is doing that in your organization is probably the one that's going to be doing 800 00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:45,980 a lot of the work defining the Kubernetes resources. 801 00:28:47,140 --> 00:28:52,440 I think it's not really something a developer should have to know. 802 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,300 But in your org, it might be something you've decided that they should know 803 00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:00,780 because of the way you've structured yourself, 804 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:07,060 because you're targeting a specific, you know, organization slash software architecture. 805 00:29:07,860 --> 00:29:11,640 And you sort of Conway's lured yourself into a particular way of working. 806 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:17,280 So that, like, is another favorite topic of mine to contemplate in the Kubernetes world, 807 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,240 which is, like, you know, there's this notion of, like, 808 00:29:20,260 --> 00:29:21,960 it's a platform for building platforms. 809 00:29:22,300 --> 00:29:25,740 And, like, what does that mean? 810 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,180 Yeah, so I have some opinions. 811 00:29:28,620 --> 00:29:33,560 So when you have an IT group, an operations group, a DevOps group, 812 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,480 you're either building a platform or you are the platform, right? 813 00:29:37,860 --> 00:29:43,060 You can be a platform made out of meat that Jira is your API, 814 00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:49,460 or you can build a platform made out of Kubernetes or out of Amazon 815 00:29:49,460 --> 00:29:55,240 or out of whatever your, you know, vegetable of choice is 816 00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:00,420 and wrap some extra tools around that, you know, wrap some monitoring, 817 00:30:00,540 --> 00:30:06,700 some logging, some access control, and then you have a platform, right? 818 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:08,660 Which is ideally self-service. 819 00:30:08,980 --> 00:30:13,560 So the goal is to get self-service application deployment to your developers. 820 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,920 And that could be through a real API. 821 00:30:18,220 --> 00:30:22,060 It could be through something Cloud Foundry-ish. 822 00:30:22,260 --> 00:30:25,260 It could be through something doing GitOps. 823 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,980 So it could be a combination of Concourse and Spinnaker. 824 00:30:30,020 --> 00:30:38,980 But the goal is to get to that self-service to your app devs without them having to do a bunch of things 825 00:30:38,980 --> 00:30:41,360 that require large portions of their brain, right? 826 00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:48,220 Because you want large portions of their brain focused on writing software that doesn't suck, right? 827 00:30:48,260 --> 00:30:52,380 I guess the cut line, the thing is that, like, as we were kind of discussing, like, 828 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,440 so you get Kubernetes up and running and you still have to, like, 829 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,580 figure out how you're going to deploy and manage and specify everything, right? 830 00:30:59,580 --> 00:31:04,080 There's not like, it's not so self-service as one would assume. 831 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:05,080 No. 832 00:31:05,340 --> 00:31:10,840 And, like, backing up, even more than that, you need to figure out how to actually build and share your images, right? 833 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,200 You don't get a build service with Kubernetes. 834 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,360 You don't get an image registry with Kubernetes. 835 00:31:17,060 --> 00:31:21,840 So, you know, you could, if you were small and able to do so, 836 00:31:21,940 --> 00:31:27,800 you could use GitHub and GitHub Actions and Docker Registry and cover those things. 837 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,580 But most of us can't do those things for any number of reasons. 838 00:31:32,180 --> 00:31:39,840 So we build things that look like those things and enable those for our developers. 839 00:31:41,020 --> 00:31:44,060 And so, you know, I was reminded of this when you're going over, like, 840 00:31:44,340 --> 00:31:46,460 you need to add in a service mesh, right? 841 00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:51,740 So it would seem like a service mesh would be a platform that you build on top of this platform. 842 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,000 Like, is that maybe not complete, but it's an example of, like, you use the, 843 00:31:57,140 --> 00:32:01,280 I think a word Kubernetes people use a lot is, like, there's primitives that are defined. 844 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,740 But you use these primitives to say, like, all right, hey, primitives, 845 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,980 here's how you can organize yourself into a civilized way of doing service management. 846 00:32:09,660 --> 00:32:11,840 And it's kind of an opinion of that. 847 00:32:12,460 --> 00:32:16,040 And then, I guess there's all sorts of other components that you would have, 848 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,000 in a platform that you can use those primitives to build. 849 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:20,600 Here's the thing. 850 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:27,120 And so, you know, related to that, so, you know, you got to, you got to, you got the cloud native 851 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,320 12 to 16 factors of doing software, right? 852 00:32:31,380 --> 00:32:33,700 The sort of cloud native way of developing software. 853 00:32:33,820 --> 00:32:39,880 And, like, is cloud native software, like, based on the constraints of containers and Kubernetes things? 854 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,740 Or are containers built around that? 855 00:32:42,860 --> 00:32:47,080 Like, what's the chicken and the egg issue between those two things? 856 00:32:48,220 --> 00:32:53,300 12 factors are really built around the constraints of a PaaS-like platform. 857 00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:57,380 I believe they originally came out of Heroku. 858 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,640 And having a similar PaaS, obviously, we like them. 859 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:09,660 The interesting thing with Kubernetes is you can start to break some of those factors, right? 860 00:33:09,660 --> 00:33:17,760 Because Kubernetes is a more feature-packed platform than PCF or Heroku. 861 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:23,660 Heroku is an opinionated platform versus Kubernetes being an unopinionated platform. 862 00:33:24,420 --> 00:33:30,880 So, basically, when we are building the platform on top of the platform, we're adding our own opinions to that platform. 863 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,700 And those opinions don't necessarily mean all 12 of the factors. 864 00:33:37,540 --> 00:33:40,380 So, with Kubernetes, you can add persistent volumes. 865 00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:43,620 So, backing services become less of a concern. 866 00:33:44,420 --> 00:33:49,220 You can do configuration by a number of different ways. 867 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,600 So, doing your configuration as environment variables. 868 00:33:52,460 --> 00:33:54,320 You can handle logging in different ways. 869 00:33:54,460 --> 00:33:59,100 So, doing your logging only to stand it out becomes a potentially optional thing. 870 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,720 So, the 12 factors, like, they're always good practice. 871 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:11,020 But they're not as important on Kubernetes as they are on a PaaS-like system. 872 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:19,080 And that gives you the added benefit of, if you really want to, you can run any old garbage pretty successfully on Kubernetes. 873 00:34:19,940 --> 00:34:20,380 Right? 874 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:35,160 So, any legacy app, if it runs on Linux or can be forced to run under Wine or something similar like that, you can run in Kubernetes with a little bit of work. 875 00:34:35,380 --> 00:34:36,780 And run them quite successfully. 876 00:34:37,940 --> 00:34:46,360 And so, it's also becoming a place where you can look at running your legacy applications as well as your fancy new cloud native applications. 877 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:57,900 So, really, with the unopinionatedness or openness, you're not, you can basically do whatever application model you want, for better or worse, right? 878 00:34:57,940 --> 00:35:07,300 Like, there's not, it might be best to do things in a cloud native way because it's more scalable and you can take advantage of all the fun stuff of cloud things. 879 00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:12,220 But really, like, you could do whatever, as you're saying, with refuse. 880 00:35:12,940 --> 00:35:16,860 It's a kitchen drawer filled to the brim with very sharp knives. 881 00:35:16,860 --> 00:35:19,680 And you can grab any of those knives out of the drawer that you want. 882 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,620 Just be careful because they're pointing in different ways and you'll cut your hand off. 883 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,000 Now, how many knives do you think you actually need in your kitchen drawer? 884 00:35:28,140 --> 00:35:29,600 Some people say, like, two, right? 885 00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:32,780 What do you think the, what do you think the bare minimum is? 886 00:35:32,980 --> 00:35:35,820 Yeah, I mean, I like knives, so I have a lot. 887 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,760 But really, two, maybe three. 888 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,140 Maybe like a paring knife and a chef knife, right? 889 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,740 And I guess if, I guess if you make a lot of, oh, yeah, that's true. 890 00:35:45,820 --> 00:35:47,860 If you make a lot of bone broth, maybe a cleaver. 891 00:35:48,460 --> 00:35:51,280 I went for shaving with, maybe Paul's pretty, pretty manly. 892 00:35:51,620 --> 00:35:52,200 That's right. 893 00:35:53,020 --> 00:35:55,020 No, I use the axe to shave. 894 00:35:55,420 --> 00:35:55,980 That's true. 895 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,180 I'm going to carve up these parsnips and then shave with the same knife. 896 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:02,400 Yes. 897 00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:02,940 Yeah. 898 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:08,660 If you look at, like, Chinese cleavers, for example, they have, like, a lot of them just 899 00:36:08,660 --> 00:36:09,540 use cleavers, right? 900 00:36:09,580 --> 00:36:12,480 And they have, like, the vegetable cleaver and the meat cleaver. 901 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:17,240 And so they've figured out a way to effectively have the same knife be multi-purpose. 902 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:25,560 And it just depends on the thickness and the angle of the blade based on what, so it's 903 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:26,020 always good. 904 00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:33,360 Like, I watch a lot of Sichuan chefs on YouTube, and they're always using these big cleavers 905 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:39,880 that we would think are for chopping bones to, like, do very, very fine knife work on vegetables 906 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:40,300 and stuff. 907 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:41,440 Mint some garlic. 908 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:42,620 Right. 909 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:43,640 Hmm. 910 00:36:44,220 --> 00:36:44,580 Yes. 911 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:45,500 How did we get on the knives? 912 00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:46,040 What happened? 913 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:52,440 Oh, it was, there was a metaphor that Kubernetes is like a kitchen drawer full of sharp knives. 914 00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:59,360 And you can do whatever, you can shave, mince garlic, chop bones in half, whatever style 915 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,560 you want to do, you can apply it to there. 916 00:37:03,140 --> 00:37:08,780 So what, like, so if we were to look forward, as I like to do towards the end of a discussion, 917 00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:16,340 like, what are the big, let's say, let's say, two to three things that the Kubernetes community 918 00:37:16,340 --> 00:37:18,060 is trying to, like, sort out now? 919 00:37:18,460 --> 00:37:22,640 Like, what, like, is it like multi-cluster management? 920 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:28,580 Or is it sort of like, I don't know, instead of YAML, we should use XML? 921 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,880 Or like, what are the big, like, issues that people are dealing with? 922 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,960 Yeah, I think multi-cluster management is definitely a thing. 923 00:37:36,340 --> 00:37:41,780 And that's from both the, like, the operation side of managing Kubernetes itself, but also 924 00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:46,740 for, I have my app, I need to deploy it to multiple regions, to multiple clusters. 925 00:37:47,140 --> 00:37:48,020 What does that look like? 926 00:37:48,740 --> 00:37:57,080 And so there's been various federation efforts with Kubernetes, with varying levels of success. 927 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,480 And by varying, I think I mean, all of them were unsuccessful. 928 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,120 I'm not sure where the current state of that is. 929 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,160 But there's been a couple of attempts that haven't really gone anywhere. 930 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:15,360 I think a lot of us are now starting to really think about good ways to handle the build and 931 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,740 storage of images. 932 00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:21,740 So like stepping, stepping back from Kubernetes and saying, it's time to add some 933 00:38:21,740 --> 00:38:28,520 somewhat opinionated pieces to Kubernetes around building and sharing those images. 934 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:34,100 So I think if you talk to any vendor that sells Kubernetes, they'll probably tell you that they 935 00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:37,100 have a thing in the pipeline to handle those things. 936 00:38:37,460 --> 00:38:41,880 And that's sort of like, it seems like one of the major connections between developers 937 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,060 and Kubernetes stuff is like the image registry, essentially, right? 938 00:38:46,260 --> 00:38:47,200 I mean, even yesterday, right? 939 00:38:47,220 --> 00:38:52,140 We shipped Spring Boot 231 that with one kind of build command will actually generate a build 940 00:38:52,140 --> 00:38:53,580 packs produced container. 941 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,640 I tweeted about it last night and people liked it because it's super easy. 942 00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,580 Even a dumb person like me can add one command and immediately I have a Docker image that's 943 00:39:00,580 --> 00:39:02,740 packaged it up correctly, right? 944 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,740 So you're not guessing on which base image to use. 945 00:39:04,740 --> 00:39:06,320 You're not guessing on how to stack it all up. 946 00:39:06,580 --> 00:39:06,780 Nope. 947 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:07,660 I'm just a dev. 948 00:39:07,740 --> 00:39:09,960 I just build and I happen to get a container in my registry. 949 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:11,880 That's really nice to link the world. 950 00:39:12,220 --> 00:39:13,800 Yeah, yeah, that absolutely is. 951 00:39:14,580 --> 00:39:19,860 And I think the good thing about that is it also makes it very easy to do such thing in 952 00:39:19,860 --> 00:39:26,420 a CI system because obviously in the real world, you're not actually building an image on your 953 00:39:26,420 --> 00:39:29,300 laptop and sending it to a registry and then running it for production, right? 954 00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:36,400 You have hopefully a CI system that is doing that so you can sort of have some traceability 955 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:41,620 of where the image came from and how it was built and keep some sort of bill of materials 956 00:39:41,620 --> 00:39:42,120 and stuff. 957 00:39:43,060 --> 00:39:48,500 So then maybe the last question, because I think where we've ended up, you know, along 958 00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:53,800 with meat cleavers, things like that, is there's sort of this picture of like, so Kubernetes 959 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:59,620 basically like takes your containers and like, as you're saying, it's an IaaS for that layer, 960 00:39:59,680 --> 00:39:59,840 right? 961 00:39:59,900 --> 00:40:05,480 It like places them, it places them on, on computers and make sure that you have proper 962 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,500 network access between things. 963 00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:10,040 And then you also need some storage and boom, there you go. 964 00:40:10,060 --> 00:40:11,340 And there's a bunch of other stuff in there. 965 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:11,960 Right. 966 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:13,880 But that's sort of the end goal. 967 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,080 Now, then as we were sort of just getting into like, but then you need to like actually 968 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:19,220 deploy software to it. 969 00:40:19,260 --> 00:40:23,240 So you need to develop the software and that needs to coordinate and you got to do this. 970 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,600 You got to have some registries, all these things like, and you know, what do you, especially 971 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:33,480 based on your experience in the OpenStack world, like, like, what do you think is a good 972 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,080 way to like layer on these upper layers of things? 973 00:40:37,420 --> 00:40:42,780 Like, like, like, is it good for the Kubernetes community to like have an opinion about that 974 00:40:42,780 --> 00:40:45,740 or to sort of like, let other people handle that? 975 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,140 Like how, what, how do you like to do that kind of stuff historically? 976 00:40:50,820 --> 00:40:57,000 I think it makes sense to let other people handle that, let it sort of settle itself down 977 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,820 and then look at what the, the leading options are. 978 00:41:01,540 --> 00:41:07,980 Um, I feel like if you try and force opinions on the people, um, and they don't like those 979 00:41:07,980 --> 00:41:12,900 opinions, they're more likely to just throw away your entire body of work than they are 980 00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:15,260 to use the 80% that works for them. 981 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:15,500 Right. 982 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,160 So baby in a bathwater problem. 983 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:19,240 Exactly. 984 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:24,440 So for better or worse, you are better off poking, focusing at the things where you can 985 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:31,340 have, um, unopinionated implementations of them, um, with easy ways to build the opinionated 986 00:41:31,340 --> 00:41:32,140 things on top. 987 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:33,520 Yeah. 988 00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:39,220 What's the, you want to have, uh, you want to have the, uh, common wisdom, like it, like 989 00:41:39,220 --> 00:41:42,140 if, if everyone shares it, it's not really an opinion. 990 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,100 It's just sort of like the, uh, the common wisdom of it. 991 00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:45,900 Yeah. 992 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,580 And, you know, it's often not the ideal thing. 993 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:55,420 It's often not the best implementation, but you know, you can be chasing the perfect 994 00:41:55,420 --> 00:42:00,820 implementation forever and never actually run any software, or you can figure out, you 995 00:42:00,820 --> 00:42:03,680 can be pragmatic, figure out what works and then build upon that. 996 00:42:04,220 --> 00:42:04,380 Yeah. 997 00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:05,120 Yeah. 998 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,280 That makes, that makes sense that like in the overall community of users and people who do 999 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,100 it and vendors and everything, like it's good to, uh, have a multiplicity of things you're 1000 00:42:15,100 --> 00:42:17,720 trying to do with at, at, at the layer that isn't settled yet. 1001 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:23,220 And kind of, uh, yeah, not, not even, not even the it's, it's nuancedly inappropriately 1002 00:42:23,220 --> 00:42:27,320 phrased to say, let the best one win, but it's more like let the one that everyone wants 1003 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,300 to use when, right. 1004 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,580 Which, you know, is, seems like a much better. 1005 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:32,980 Well, great. 1006 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:38,560 Well, uh, if people want to, uh, uh, keep up with you in a non-spooky way, see what you're 1007 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:38,820 up to. 1008 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:40,160 What, what would you point them to? 1009 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,540 Uh, so they can find me on Twitter, uh, at Pete Chikovsky. 1010 00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:50,080 Uh, I have a very hard to pronounce name, uh, and a very hard to spell name so that, uh, 1011 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,720 we can put it in the, in the show notes, how to spell my name. 1012 00:42:54,020 --> 00:42:54,580 And then that's right. 1013 00:42:55,620 --> 00:43:02,120 Uh, unfortunately all the short, easy to spell ways of saying my name were already taken by 1014 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,340 other people on Twitter. 1015 00:43:04,340 --> 00:43:06,720 Uh, so I'm stuck with a hard to spell name. 1016 00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:12,660 Uh, otherwise I can be found all over the place at conferences. 1017 00:43:12,660 --> 00:43:19,460 Uh, I'll be at Bosdom and config management camp in Belgium in like a week's time. 1018 00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:21,060 Yeah, that's soon. 1019 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:22,680 Uh, yeah, that's soon. 1020 00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:26,940 And then I believe we're starting to plan out our SpringOne tour events for this year. 1021 00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:30,540 And we have maybe Seattle coming up in March. 1022 00:43:30,540 --> 00:43:31,120 That's right. 1023 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,160 I think March 9th or 10th or something like that. 1024 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:41,900 Uh, and I believe I'll actually be giving a, like three and a bit hour Kubernetes workshop 1025 00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:47,140 where I will be giving everyone access to a cluster and teaching them, uh, piece by piece 1026 00:43:47,140 --> 00:43:50,280 how to actually deploy and run applications on Kubernetes. 1027 00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:51,840 Oh, that'll be exciting. 1028 00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:53,380 That should be fun. 1029 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:54,280 Yeah. 1030 00:43:55,020 --> 00:43:55,420 Yeah. 1031 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,980 I think I'm also giving a workshop, so I will not be able to attend. 1032 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:00,520 Hmm. 1033 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,060 And, and by, I think I am. 1034 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:07,320 So I need to figure that out, put together, make sure I have solid content. 1035 00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:08,700 Yes. 1036 00:44:08,940 --> 00:44:09,780 That's, that's always key. 1037 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:10,300 Well, all right. 1038 00:44:10,300 --> 00:44:15,100 Well, as, as always, this has been, uh, well, it's still Pivotal Conversations because 1039 00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:19,260 we haven't renamed it, but just so the audience knows, I think, I think what I'm thinking 1040 00:44:19,260 --> 00:44:25,580 of me and me and Dormain, Dormain and I is, uh, where I think we're going to call it Tanzu 1041 00:44:25,580 --> 00:44:30,780 talk just because I think like we were discussing it and I think, I think that title, especially 1042 00:44:30,780 --> 00:44:36,000 because talk, it kind of matches the tone that both of us have on this whole podcast, which 1043 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,720 is, you know, slightly goofy, but helpful. 1044 00:44:37,980 --> 00:44:42,880 And it's kind of like, you remember, uh, UHF with weird owl, it was that show talk. 1045 00:44:43,340 --> 00:44:48,940 So we may not, we may not have a finding a marble and oatmeal or, you know, red snapper 1046 00:44:48,940 --> 00:44:53,680 or anything like that, but we'll try to have it be as, as, as entertaining and, uh, save 1047 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:54,080 the channel. 1048 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,580 Will you have ads for a spatula city? 1049 00:44:56,780 --> 00:44:57,320 That's right. 1050 00:44:57,380 --> 00:44:59,900 Nothing says I love you more than a spatula. 1051 00:45:01,340 --> 00:45:05,920 I, you know, speaking of the kitchen drawer, I, every time I grab a spatula, I think that's, 1052 00:45:05,980 --> 00:45:09,060 I think that those exact words, spatula city. 1053 00:45:09,060 --> 00:45:12,620 Uh, well with that, we'll see everyone next time. 1054 00:45:12,860 --> 00:45:13,700 Bye-bye. 1055 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,980 What's the rule with two vowels are together that like one of them silences the other or 1056 00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:22,020 something, or am I remembering that incorrectly? 1057 00:45:22,180 --> 00:45:25,700 Isn't there some rules as far as how you pronounce thing when two vowels appear with each other? 1058 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:27,520 No. 1059 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:29,480 No, that's yeah. 1060 00:45:29,540 --> 00:45:30,540 Awkward silence there. 1061 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:31,060 Yeah. 1062 00:45:31,220 --> 00:45:33,800 You never know that I spend most of my time writing for a living. 1063 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:41,120 The only two vowels rule I know is, uh, I before E and less it is preceded by C. 1064 00:45:41,820 --> 00:45:43,820 The exception of neighbor and way, right? 1065 00:45:43,860 --> 00:45:44,880 Isn't that the thing? 1066 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,160 And total economic impact. 1067 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:47,780 Right. 1068 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:48,040 Yes. 1069 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:48,460 Yeah. 1070 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:48,900 Okay. 1071 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:49,520 Third option. 1072 00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:50,740 Anyhow. 1073 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:51,640 Mm-hmm.