1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,860 Well, I just demonstrated my proficiency at doing computers, which reminds me, I think, of something that would be fun to talk about. 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:16,000 Instead of weather or food or whatever, Richard, what is your deal with upgrades? 3 00:00:16,100 --> 00:00:21,180 Do you upgrade everything computer, software, not computer-wise, but software-wise the minute it comes out? 4 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:26,980 Or are you like, whoa, I got to put the brakes on this so I can figure out if it's good, how it works? 5 00:00:26,980 --> 00:00:28,800 Or are you just like instant upgrade guy? 6 00:00:29,620 --> 00:00:30,980 Yeah, first I thought we were going to think about food. 7 00:00:31,140 --> 00:00:33,860 Like, do I get the larger french fry or do I do the regular size? 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:34,980 That's a different upgrade. 9 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:41,620 I'm usually an upgrade right away person and feel instant wave of regret when things stop working. 10 00:00:41,740 --> 00:00:44,420 But I don't learn, so I do upgrade. 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:44,820 How about you? 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,240 I think I upgrade all the time, as soon as I can. 13 00:00:48,580 --> 00:00:53,020 Yeah, because, in fact, I wanted to upgrade to Catalina here on the desktop. 14 00:00:53,020 --> 00:01:02,920 But our, whatever, our fierce virus control policy thing wouldn't let me, which I, oh, it's called Sentinel-1. 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,260 Is that a security risk if you tell people which Sentinel you use? 16 00:01:07,580 --> 00:01:08,580 We'll scrub it. 17 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:08,860 Yeah. 18 00:01:08,980 --> 00:01:09,540 That sounds good. 19 00:01:09,540 --> 00:01:19,260 Yeah, they have this big, they have a big ad in Skipple where there's this, there's this archer and she has like some high-tech cyber bow, like, you know, some compound bow or whatever. 20 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:26,140 And I guess the idea is it's going to shoot your updates like Catalina before they can get installed in your machine. 21 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:32,820 But, yeah, I update stuff as soon as possible because I figure, you know, it must be good if they send an update. 22 00:01:32,820 --> 00:01:33,180 You think so? 23 00:01:33,620 --> 00:01:35,260 What about the browser? 24 00:01:35,340 --> 00:01:40,900 Because that's the one thing, like, I'll get that Chrome notification for about three weeks and won't click upgrade because I'm scared it's going to blow away all my windows. 25 00:01:41,340 --> 00:01:44,620 So that's the only thing I upgrade very slowly for some reason. 26 00:01:44,620 --> 00:01:48,220 No, no, I just upgrade all the things as soon as possible. 27 00:01:48,460 --> 00:01:54,460 Although, so, wait, you're telling me you're one of these, like, you keep a bunch of tabs open as a way to navigate life, persons? 28 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,620 I mean, I'm not, you know, like our boss, Ian, who always has like about 400 tabs open. 29 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,580 I only have at most like 10, but there's certain things I just, I'm not going to remember what I had open a week ago. 30 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:06,500 I just wait until I get to them. 31 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:07,860 That makes sense. 32 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:08,380 Okay. 33 00:02:08,660 --> 00:02:12,500 Well, speaking of opening tabs, do you want to introduce yourself, guest? 34 00:02:14,180 --> 00:02:15,020 Oh, yes. 35 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,540 My name is Demetrius Robinson. 36 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:19,440 I'm a software engineer. 37 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,160 We have a little bit of news, as always, to talk about. 38 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,860 Feel free to jump in or go over things we've left out. 39 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:30,480 And then we'll come back for a more extensive introduction and for a little chat. 40 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,280 But so, first up, I think there was KubeCon last week. 41 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,020 Is that the right way to pronounce it? 42 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:37,520 KubeCon? 43 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,760 I'm glad you paused to stop there. 44 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,820 I think it's KubeCon, or as our upcoming new boss is KubeCon. 45 00:02:44,580 --> 00:02:45,020 KubeCon. 46 00:02:45,180 --> 00:02:45,640 That's good. 47 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,020 That's what Pat likes to say. 48 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:48,780 That's like you cross the KubeCon. 49 00:02:49,260 --> 00:02:49,440 Yeah. 50 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:50,700 And that's a big moment. 51 00:02:51,020 --> 00:02:51,560 Sounds legit. 52 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:52,600 Yeah. 53 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,800 And, you know, there was a lot of Caesars, and it's a lot of Augustuses, too. 54 00:02:58,940 --> 00:03:00,000 It's hard to separate them. 55 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:01,140 I get mixed up. 56 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,720 I was looking them up the other day, and I think the one that we all think of is Augustus, 57 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:05,660 if I remember. 58 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,780 The one that crossed the KubeCon. 59 00:03:09,380 --> 00:03:10,260 I'll have to go verify that. 60 00:03:10,300 --> 00:03:18,280 Anyways, we had a new version of the Pivotal Container Service shipping, PKS 1.6. 61 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:24,300 It looks like, among other things, as one would sort of suspect, there's some integration 62 00:03:24,300 --> 00:03:26,240 with Tanzu Mission Control. 63 00:03:26,380 --> 00:03:26,820 Tanzu. 64 00:03:26,980 --> 00:03:27,380 Tanzu. 65 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:34,580 We're going to have a whole podcast, how to pronounce things, which essentially, I haven't 66 00:03:34,580 --> 00:03:39,120 actually looked at a demo of it, but reading over the things and poking at it, you know, 67 00:03:39,180 --> 00:03:42,060 it essentially means you have the one pane of glass. 68 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:43,860 I don't think people say moms anymore. 69 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:49,480 But, you know, it gives you a single way of managing all your various Kubernetes things. 70 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,840 But what else is in this version? 71 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,740 Yeah, as you mentioned, it's that first integration with Mission Control, so being able to provision 72 00:03:56,740 --> 00:03:57,980 and manage clusters is great. 73 00:03:58,100 --> 00:04:00,960 There's a new management user interface for kind of day two stuff. 74 00:04:01,020 --> 00:04:06,260 But also, I think what's interesting is it supports Kubernetes 115, which if you kind of 75 00:04:06,260 --> 00:04:11,880 follow industry-wise, it's been trickier getting the latest supported version kind of in your 76 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:13,180 platform, even for public clouds. 77 00:04:13,180 --> 00:04:17,860 If you look at the default versions that most public cloud support, it's like 113 is the 78 00:04:17,860 --> 00:04:18,160 default. 79 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,480 So it's interesting to watch how, you know, a survey came out last week. 80 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,880 I saw the new stack reporting on it that most people are at least N minus two on the version 81 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:27,880 of Kubernetes they're running. 82 00:04:27,940 --> 00:04:28,580 So it's hard to keep up. 83 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,280 And so that's fair, but it also is going to be up to your platform provider to help you 84 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:33,700 keep up. 85 00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:37,860 If your platform provider keeps encouraging you to use a two or three version, old version, 86 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:38,320 guess what? 87 00:04:38,380 --> 00:04:39,240 That's what you're going to use. 88 00:04:39,780 --> 00:04:44,360 So 115, we're one of the only platforms that has that as a commercially supported offering. 89 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:45,680 It's exciting. 90 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:51,520 And, you know, there's enhancements to existing stuff in there as well, which is nice. 91 00:04:51,940 --> 00:04:54,580 And I guess people will, it'd be interesting. 92 00:04:54,820 --> 00:04:57,620 I remember, was that like the Datadog Kubernetes thing? 93 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,760 I forget which survey it was that was going over the version people run. 94 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,760 It'd be fun to see what version of PKS people run, how many far, I guess they wouldn't be ahead. 95 00:05:07,060 --> 00:05:07,960 They would only be back. 96 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:10,540 That would be a good comparison. 97 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:11,620 It would be. 98 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:20,380 And then also, you know, I think there's some build services updates or there's a very long 99 00:05:20,380 --> 00:05:28,240 post, I think, in a good way, but posted kind of in the context of the KubeCon last week. 100 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,820 Also about Kubernetes, but there's kind of an overview of what the, I don't know, the philosophy, 101 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:34,720 if you will, of the build service was. 102 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:39,120 And there's the usual thing that we've talked about in the Pivotal World for a while where 103 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:44,020 it, because you separate out the operating system from building the container, it'll, 104 00:05:44,380 --> 00:05:45,980 of course, does that for you and manages that. 105 00:05:46,300 --> 00:05:51,980 But it does have a nice kind of way of, you know, having that pipeline wrapped around of 106 00:05:51,980 --> 00:05:57,300 the strategy of building container-based things, again, which is just, you know, use, whether 107 00:05:57,300 --> 00:06:02,900 it's the cloud-native build packs or other ways of like marking it up, basically saying, 108 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,040 here's the code that I have and just build the container for me and also put it in a 109 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,960 registry, whatever way you might want to do it. 110 00:06:10,020 --> 00:06:15,840 But I think that blog post is a nice overview of here's why you would use the build service 111 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:18,900 and kind of how it strategizes out building things for you. 112 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:20,160 Yeah. 113 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,420 And there's another milestone coming up soon, which is why we put that blog post out. 114 00:06:23,460 --> 00:06:26,460 But, you know, even more than building, which there are obviously a handful of ways you 115 00:06:26,460 --> 00:06:27,520 can build containers today. 116 00:06:27,620 --> 00:06:32,280 I think the value probably the most of the service is the update, which is now that you've 117 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:35,760 got all these containers built, how do you patch all the different things that keep changing 118 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,380 all the time from the OS to the app server to your code? 119 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:42,980 And so having something that's constantly looking for kind of breaking change or changes anywhere 120 00:06:42,980 --> 00:06:46,740 in that container stack and then updating that container image seems like a big deal. 121 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:47,460 Yeah. 122 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:48,000 Yeah. 123 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:53,400 It's hopefully you can get to the point in a good way where a patch and a release are the 124 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:59,840 same sort of thing, you know, kind of stress level wise in that the stress level is low, 125 00:07:00,060 --> 00:07:02,740 essentially, not necessarily high. 126 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:11,360 And then, you know, also, I think there's the PAS for Kubernetes is still like in beta or 127 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:12,320 alpha or something, right? 128 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:17,320 We just have an update of how we run what we used to call Pivotal Cloud Foundry and now 129 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,460 Pivotal Platform on top of Kubernetes. 130 00:07:20,820 --> 00:07:24,600 Yeah, it was a good post as well against some other big milestones coming up, but bringing 131 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,940 that experience, which everyone keeps seemingly trying to create on Kubernetes, right? 132 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:30,180 That's a great foundation. 133 00:07:30,180 --> 00:07:34,220 But then how do you build these sort of application level deployment APIs on top of it? 134 00:07:34,700 --> 00:07:35,900 Everyone keeps trying to do that. 135 00:07:35,980 --> 00:07:38,400 We've already kind of had that with what we have with PAS. 136 00:07:38,540 --> 00:07:42,760 So bringing that to Kubernetes, bringing that proven experience, again, it seems like it's 137 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:43,700 going to solve a big problem. 138 00:07:43,820 --> 00:07:45,720 We're getting pretty close to some major milestones there. 139 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:47,940 Yeah, it would be nice. 140 00:07:48,060 --> 00:07:52,600 And there's, there's my, I think one of my favorite technical content innovations of the 141 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,720 past two or three years, there's, there's animated GIFs that are like little demos. 142 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,020 I think whoever, whoever came up with that idea, however long ago. 143 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:01,200 That's a big win. 144 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:01,800 Yeah. 145 00:08:02,020 --> 00:08:02,160 Yeah. 146 00:08:02,260 --> 00:08:03,740 Better, better than a little embedded video. 147 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:10,940 I think also, I think maybe in that post, I am the featured tweet at the top, which was 148 00:08:10,940 --> 00:08:12,440 a little shocking at first. 149 00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:13,660 I was like, who is that? 150 00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:14,660 Oh, that's me. 151 00:08:15,020 --> 00:08:15,460 That's you. 152 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:16,620 Yeah. 153 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:17,980 We had to throw a little nod at you. 154 00:08:18,340 --> 00:08:22,260 So I was, I was thinking, you know, it would be, it would be devilish fun to like change 155 00:08:22,260 --> 00:08:24,320 my, my Twitter avatar to something. 156 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,020 Although I don't really know what you would change it to. 157 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:28,820 That would be good or bad or interesting. 158 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,760 It's, it's a, I wonder if that ever happens to people. 159 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:32,000 Yeah. 160 00:08:32,060 --> 00:08:33,040 I think people do do that. 161 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,820 So you just change your, your, your like screen name to something like, you know, PayPal 162 00:08:36,820 --> 00:08:39,280 me at, and like put your PayPal address in there. 163 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:39,720 Just something. 164 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:40,320 Oh, there you go. 165 00:08:40,560 --> 00:08:40,920 There you go. 166 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,660 You've got to somehow troll us or, uh, right. 167 00:08:44,180 --> 00:08:49,060 So what's the, now, now last I checked, you work in, in, in marketing, Richard. 168 00:08:49,220 --> 00:08:52,980 What's, what's like the, what's like the deal with embedded tweets? 169 00:08:53,020 --> 00:08:58,000 Is it, is it like, is it just like cool or is there like some strategy for it? 170 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,620 Like what, uh, I, I, what, why does that happen? 171 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:02,320 Not that it shouldn't. 172 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:03,540 I just like, I don't know. 173 00:09:04,060 --> 00:09:07,360 I'm, I, I, I went to college back in the late nineties. 174 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,700 So they didn't cover that and I strunk in white, uh, how it fits in there. 175 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:12,100 So what's, I don't know. 176 00:09:12,220 --> 00:09:13,260 What's like, why do we use them? 177 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:13,920 Yeah. 178 00:09:13,980 --> 00:09:14,280 Yeah. 179 00:09:14,540 --> 00:09:17,820 I mean, I think it shows that there's an active conversation and it's a proof point that isn't 180 00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:20,220 like, Hey, jump off the site and go read this long article. 181 00:09:20,540 --> 00:09:22,360 And so, so many people still do that, right? 182 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:23,880 Like, Hey, to read more, look, click here. 183 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,080 It's like, Oh, now I'm kicking you off the site and you might never come back, but here's 184 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,900 like a succinct 280 character thing that kind of proves that point by someone else. 185 00:09:32,380 --> 00:09:32,740 Okay. 186 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:33,140 Yeah. 187 00:09:33,180 --> 00:09:33,460 Yeah. 188 00:09:33,500 --> 00:09:33,700 Okay. 189 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:34,660 That, that makes sense. 190 00:09:34,700 --> 00:09:35,680 So it's a, it's a good quote. 191 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,340 And like you're saying that's, there's, um, it's not just us like, you know, typing into 192 00:09:40,340 --> 00:09:40,980 a black hole. 193 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:42,440 There's, there's, there's other people. 194 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:43,000 Okay. 195 00:09:43,300 --> 00:09:44,160 That makes sense. 196 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:45,620 I like that. 197 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:46,100 All right. 198 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:51,120 And then, uh, and then also there's a, uh, uh, there's a couple of other news items. 199 00:09:52,060 --> 00:09:55,620 There's a confluent has a, a, a, a new driver. 200 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,340 I have to confess, I have not read this news. 201 00:09:58,340 --> 00:09:59,740 So why don't you tell us about it, Richard? 202 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,960 Yeah, they did the update last week to a KSQL DB. 203 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,140 So they have something called KSQL for kind of SQL queries on crossed event streams. 204 00:10:07,380 --> 00:10:12,640 And so this new version, which actually for them warranted an actual product name to KSQL 205 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:17,940 DB is actually a, an event database for kind of storing materialized views on the event 206 00:10:17,940 --> 00:10:22,040 stream and letting you do things like query that set of things. 207 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,080 So, Hey, what's the state of this particular set of information, this customer record, this 208 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,780 order, or again, you already had these sort of push queries that said, Hey, let me know 209 00:10:30,780 --> 00:10:35,720 when the longitude latitude of this Uber driver changes, send me that. 210 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:36,900 So kind of a push based query. 211 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,200 So interesting stuff. 212 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,280 They just keep blurring the lines, I think in a good way, but frankly, I think for a lot 213 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,400 of people, it's going to confuse for a little while. 214 00:10:43,420 --> 00:10:47,060 They're kind of changing the nature of what we think of as a database, which Kafka always 215 00:10:47,060 --> 00:10:52,020 did that since a, look, it's a write only or append only distributed event. 216 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:57,920 So it feels like an inside out database where I'm not looking at columns and rows of like, 217 00:10:57,980 --> 00:10:59,340 here's the current state of things. 218 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:01,700 I'm looking at the history of how I got to that thing. 219 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:03,660 And so it's a powerful concept. 220 00:11:03,780 --> 00:11:07,120 It's just for people used to, here's my Postgres SQL server database. 221 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,660 And it just tells me, you know, Coté's employee record versus here's the stream of everything 222 00:11:11,660 --> 00:11:12,560 since we hired him. 223 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:14,040 That's just different. 224 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:19,420 And so even this, where you have, again, this, this kind of different database concept, I 225 00:11:19,420 --> 00:11:20,240 think it's all great stuff. 226 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:21,700 Like we're moving the conversation forward. 227 00:11:21,780 --> 00:11:26,420 It'll be interesting to see how people used to the current adopt and think about this new 228 00:11:26,420 --> 00:11:26,660 model. 229 00:11:28,020 --> 00:11:28,420 Yeah. 230 00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:29,020 Yeah. 231 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,800 You know, I think, I think as, as I'm sure you've seen every time there's a new data 232 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,480 base and not in the database sense, but data pool. 233 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,240 Eventually you put SQL around it. 234 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:41,880 Exactly. 235 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,400 I, you know, and that reminds me, I don't know if I ever complained about this, but it 236 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,620 was always shocking to me that like people don't use SQL against Excel. 237 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,220 Like, I think there's some like little avenues to do it here and there, but it seems like, 238 00:11:55,060 --> 00:11:57,960 uh, I mean, it's already tables, right? 239 00:11:57,980 --> 00:12:01,820 It's pretty, like, it would be nice to just run SQL against Excel sometimes rather than, 240 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,060 cause you know, the whole, I never figured out the way that the Excel programming model like 241 00:12:06,060 --> 00:12:08,200 thinks, like, it's very strange. 242 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,720 Like if you, you know, when you make a pivot table and other things like that, the way that 243 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,060 I don't know, the way all that stuff is, uh, it's strategy, so to speak is bizarre. 244 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:16,320 Yeah. 245 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:17,440 I'm not a power user. 246 00:12:17,540 --> 00:12:21,340 I'm sure some of our listeners will say like, they know all the different tools and functions 247 00:12:21,340 --> 00:12:23,240 and ways to program a spreadsheet. 248 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,640 I'm sure there's some admin out there who just can run laps around both of us. 249 00:12:26,940 --> 00:12:27,180 Oh yeah. 250 00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:28,860 I've never become a hardcore Excel geek. 251 00:12:28,940 --> 00:12:30,740 I've never totally unlocked the whole thing. 252 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:31,320 Yeah. 253 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:37,260 Well, you know, all you have to do is go get an MBA and, uh, work, work in corporate 254 00:12:37,260 --> 00:12:38,260 development for a while. 255 00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:43,300 And you'll be really good at, as they say, uh, arts and crafts doing, doing good spreadsheets. 256 00:12:43,660 --> 00:12:44,020 Yeah. 257 00:12:44,020 --> 00:12:45,120 I'm just PowerPoint now. 258 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:45,600 Yeah. 259 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:50,440 Like, see the first lesson one would be like, if you know what chart you want to make, here's 260 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,840 how to enter the data, like make this the row and make this the column would be a fun, 261 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:55,920 a fun lesson. 262 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:02,340 And then finally, uh, Google cloud run is now, uh, has, uh, has general availability. 263 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:06,240 It's, uh, it is basically their, their serverless environment. 264 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:08,680 I, have you, have you like poked around at that? 265 00:13:08,780 --> 00:13:10,240 What, what, uh, yeah, a little bit. 266 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,380 I mean, it's powered by K native, which, you know, isn't itself one Oh yet. 267 00:13:14,380 --> 00:13:19,460 So, I mean, good for, good for Google for shipping a one Oh service on a 0.9 foundation, 268 00:13:19,460 --> 00:13:20,720 which some people do, of course. 269 00:13:21,180 --> 00:13:22,620 Uh, but that's good, right? 270 00:13:22,620 --> 00:13:25,260 It's the first realization of K native as a commercial service. 271 00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:28,240 So it's kind of, you know, serverless, but containerized serverless. 272 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:28,900 I don't know. 273 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,640 For me, there's, it'll be interesting watching for the next year or so. 274 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:37,740 Obviously more of, are we going to see, try to return to more simplified abstractions 275 00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:40,160 now that there's just seems to be so much complexity out there. 276 00:13:40,260 --> 00:13:44,240 Do things like this, do things like, obviously the things we keep doing with paths for Kates 277 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,960 or these other, even PAAS like services out there. 278 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,760 And, you know, just some of these things that are trying to hide some of the underlying 279 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:51,360 complexity. 280 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,380 Google cloud run tries to do that. 281 00:13:53,380 --> 00:13:57,280 You know, Microsoft's doing that with the Azure spring cloud that kind of hide plumbing guts 282 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:58,920 and just help you focus on spring apps. 283 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,500 I think we haven't hit the trough yet of over complexity. 284 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:06,860 I think we're still, still rushing towards it, but I'm actually trying to look to see where 285 00:14:06,860 --> 00:14:11,220 do we start coming out of that and focus back on just kind of productivity versus necessarily 286 00:14:11,220 --> 00:14:13,160 all this extensibility we have right now. 287 00:14:13,580 --> 00:14:13,980 Yeah. 288 00:14:14,060 --> 00:14:20,560 What's, what's your sense of the, uh, the, the either maturity or the state of materialization 289 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,620 and the reality of like serverless and functional programming. 290 00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:29,400 I asked this kind of like, I don't know, two thirds jokingly on my other podcast last week. 291 00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:33,200 It's kind of saying, I haven't really heard a lot about serverless recently, but you know, 292 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,800 maybe I just got my head in the wrong hole, but like, is that a, how's that whole serverless 293 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:37,260 thing going? 294 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:38,060 Is that working out? 295 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:43,080 I mean, look, there's going to be a huge set of stuff at reinvent focused on it again. 296 00:14:43,140 --> 00:14:44,460 I'm sure there'll be more crazy announcement. 297 00:14:44,580 --> 00:14:47,480 I don't know if it's, it's crossed the chasm, if you will, yet. 298 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,840 It still seems like Kubernetes potentially drowned it out temporarily because that's much 299 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,780 more comfortable for most people is it's a computing environment. 300 00:14:55,780 --> 00:14:57,640 It takes a lot of stuff I already have. 301 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:02,560 It's not forcing me to re-architect and adopt all these managed services and stateless stuff. 302 00:15:02,740 --> 00:15:07,440 But at the same time though, you're watching, I mean, today, this morning, actually, uh, 303 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,680 pivotal, we updated the spring framework with functional programming and spring cloud stream. 304 00:15:11,860 --> 00:15:15,840 So again, we're kind of bringing those paradigms to other things, which may be where some of 305 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,260 this stuff ends up versus just, I go to some function as a service environment. 306 00:15:20,460 --> 00:15:25,480 I decompose a perfectly fine working app into 40 functions and a message broker and call 307 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:25,940 it a day. 308 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,220 I don't know if that's where we're going or if instead it's going to continue to be this 309 00:15:29,220 --> 00:15:33,680 push to manage services, manage services that have functions as triggers to maybe connect 310 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:34,540 systems together. 311 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,040 But I don't think we're going to end up where we're all just turning everything into compute 312 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:38,540 functions. 313 00:15:38,860 --> 00:15:39,640 And that's the end state. 314 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:40,880 That doesn't seem like that's the future. 315 00:15:41,420 --> 00:15:41,500 Yeah. 316 00:15:41,540 --> 00:15:45,920 That's an interesting, uh, divide there that kind of, as you're saying, it could just be 317 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,380 a programming model, not like a service. 318 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:52,840 I mean, I'm, I think the same people have been saying the same lately. 319 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,940 I've seen about AI and ML, like, am I going to have all these standalone machine learning 320 00:15:56,940 --> 00:16:02,040 AI services, or does it just get infused into more of my stuff where I'm not opting into 321 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:02,400 AI? 322 00:16:02,580 --> 00:16:06,140 It just, it's there in my distributed system or it's there in my spreadsheet or it's there 323 00:16:06,140 --> 00:16:06,680 in my whatever. 324 00:16:07,260 --> 00:16:09,940 Maybe I don't really think about coding a ton of functions. 325 00:16:09,940 --> 00:16:13,960 I just think about building all these little hooks on my workday thing or Salesforce thing 326 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:14,720 or whatever thing. 327 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,140 Maybe we'll see. 328 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,420 Put the emails on all the things. 329 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:19,920 That's, that sounds great. 330 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:25,740 Well, well, guest, why don't you, uh, give yourself a, uh, a bit of a longer introduction? 331 00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:27,360 What do you, what do you do around here? 332 00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:31,860 Oh, well, uh, like I said, my name is Demetrius Robinson. 333 00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:35,760 Currently I'm a software engineer for Pivotal Lab. 334 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:44,020 Uh, we do consulting work and, uh, using an agile methodology and that's about it about 335 00:16:44,020 --> 00:16:44,720 me right now. 336 00:16:45,020 --> 00:16:45,460 Awesome. 337 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:46,280 Yeah. 338 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,160 Thanks for, thanks for joining us for this chat. 339 00:16:48,260 --> 00:16:52,260 You're, uh, you're someone I met a little while ago and thought you had a cool story and 340 00:16:52,260 --> 00:16:53,440 inspiring story. 341 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,920 So that'd be fun to, uh, pick your brain a little bit. 342 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,100 So how old were you when you started programming? 343 00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:00,200 When's the first time you really started slinging code? 344 00:17:01,140 --> 00:17:06,740 Oh, the first time I started programming, I believe I was like 14 or 15. 345 00:17:07,220 --> 00:17:13,040 I actually started with visual basics, believe it or not, uh, for 2d game development. 346 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:19,660 And like a couple, like a little while after that, I sort of like fell off, uh, programming 347 00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:21,140 and I took a break for a while. 348 00:17:22,940 --> 00:17:23,340 Yeah. 349 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,000 So why did you like visual basic upfront? 350 00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:27,800 Like did it appeal to you in a certain way? 351 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,100 I just, from a simplicity perspective, I mean, frankly, that's the first thing I really started 352 00:17:31,100 --> 00:17:34,560 even using intensely to JavaScript early, but then visual basic. 353 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:35,800 Why, why did it appeal to you? 354 00:17:36,140 --> 00:17:43,540 Uh, man, honestly, the RPG community, like the online role playing game community, uh, there 355 00:17:43,540 --> 00:17:50,160 were so many games and like everyone was writing like, uh, RPG engines and visual basic and 356 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,580 there was a lot of games coming out and there was a big community. 357 00:17:53,580 --> 00:17:58,280 So I felt like it was, it was a good place to learn and everyone was so supportive and 358 00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,720 helpful with each other. 359 00:18:00,260 --> 00:18:00,560 Mm-hmm. 360 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:01,880 Yeah. 361 00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:05,420 Well, you started, so it's out, but you started coding because you like, you know, game development, 362 00:18:05,420 --> 00:18:06,900 like there was a reason, I guess, behind you. 363 00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:07,640 We're just tinkering. 364 00:18:07,980 --> 00:18:09,940 You actually were building something that was fun. 365 00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:10,940 I was in for games. 366 00:18:11,060 --> 00:18:11,240 Yeah. 367 00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:14,100 Awesome. 368 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,380 So you mentioned you kind of took a break from programming for a decade or so. 369 00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:19,100 Can you tell us why? 370 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:21,100 Oh, yeah. 371 00:18:21,580 --> 00:18:23,980 So I started programming visual basic. 372 00:18:23,980 --> 00:18:31,300 I took a little break off and then in 2007, I was actually arrested and I spent a couple 373 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:32,600 months in county jail. 374 00:18:33,220 --> 00:18:38,920 And then, uh, in early 2008, I was actually finished for 12 years in state prison. 375 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,260 So that usually puts a crimp, I guess, on initially on programming goals there, but then something 376 00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:43,800 changed there. 377 00:18:44,060 --> 00:18:47,900 So you came across the, yeah, that kind of messes with your plans. 378 00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:51,340 So, but you came across the program you were telling me about with, I think it's called, 379 00:18:51,340 --> 00:18:52,240 it's called Last Mile. 380 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,760 How did you come across that and how far in to your sentence did you, did you come across 381 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:57,020 that? 382 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:58,100 Oh, wow. 383 00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:58,800 Let's see. 384 00:18:59,060 --> 00:19:06,260 About, I want to say about nine years into my sentence, uh, like in prison, they do a lot 385 00:19:06,260 --> 00:19:11,240 of transfers, you know, you, uh, you're not really in control of where you live and actually 386 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,700 my security level was getting lowered. 387 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,880 I was going to a lower level. 388 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:20,380 So they moved me to a new institution. 389 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,800 And when you do that, you have these things called like orientation. 390 00:19:24,380 --> 00:19:29,040 So like when you start a new job, but in this case, you're not allowed to do anything until 391 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:29,980 you see a committee. 392 00:19:30,140 --> 00:19:31,360 It usually takes like a week or two. 393 00:19:32,060 --> 00:19:37,440 So during my, my time to see committee, I'm sitting there and I'm waiting and I looked 394 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,260 up and there was a poster for this program called the last mile. 395 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,420 And when I read the poster, I did, I just couldn't believe it. 396 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:50,780 The reason I couldn't believe it is because it says that it's how inmates how to code. 397 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:56,200 Like, uh, they were using JavaScript to do web, uh, web development. 398 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,760 And I was just like, wait a minute. 399 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,620 They were teaching us how to code in prison. 400 00:20:01,980 --> 00:20:06,160 I was like, wait, prisoners, you know, I just couldn't believe it because they were doing 401 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,440 something that I thought was, was pretty cool. 402 00:20:08,980 --> 00:20:09,120 Yeah. 403 00:20:09,260 --> 00:20:09,680 That's amazing. 404 00:20:09,780 --> 00:20:14,380 So you grabbed the flyer, you took the information or once you got through that orientation, you 405 00:20:14,380 --> 00:20:15,780 got, got into the program, right? 406 00:20:15,780 --> 00:20:16,580 Did you have to apply? 407 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,920 Did you have to approve that you've coded before or they would take anybody who had interest 408 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:20,640 in that? 409 00:20:21,140 --> 00:20:25,980 Oh, actually there's a, there's like a weeding process for the last mile. 410 00:20:26,460 --> 00:20:27,600 Uh, there's a few requirements. 411 00:20:27,980 --> 00:20:33,680 Like at the time I mentioned that I dropped low, uh, dropped to a lower tertiary level. 412 00:20:33,940 --> 00:20:38,840 Uh, that typically means like I've been out of trouble for a while and with last mile, you 413 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,280 have to not have been in any trouble within the last 12 months. 414 00:20:43,780 --> 00:20:46,940 Uh, you have to, they prefer like college experience. 415 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,120 You don't need a college degree, just taking like a little classes to sort of get you 416 00:20:51,140 --> 00:20:54,980 in the hang of like the intensive work, you know, that you got to put in. 417 00:20:55,820 --> 00:21:00,300 And like, once you're in the program, like, well, you actually do have to interview, you 418 00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:04,320 do like problems, sit down with someone and interview with them if they accept you. 419 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,300 You're in the program, but at the same time, like if you get in trouble while you're in 420 00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:12,400 the program at any time, like you're automatically kicked out. 421 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,500 And so like, what, uh, is, is it like a daily or like what, what do you, what do you 422 00:21:17,500 --> 00:21:18,820 actually do in the class? 423 00:21:19,180 --> 00:21:21,120 Like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm 424 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:21,680 I'm curious. 425 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,700 And then also we'll have to return to role-playing games at some point that, that 426 00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:31,280 sounded, but, but, uh, yeah, what's, what, uh, what's, what, uh, what's, what are the 427 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:31,960 classes like? 428 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,800 Oh, so the last mile, they have a couple of tracks and the tracks are approximately like 429 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:38,680 six months long. 430 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:46,840 So in track one, you focus on, uh, sort of like fun and web development for HTML, CSS, 431 00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:51,580 JavaScript, uh, where we have a curriculum that you can work on. 432 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:52,600 It's Monday through Friday. 433 00:21:53,140 --> 00:21:58,800 So you go to class, uh, after breakfast in the morning, they're typically in class for like 434 00:21:58,800 --> 00:21:59,440 the afternoon. 435 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,160 And, uh, that's track one. 436 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:07,780 When you get into track two, you sort of move to, uh, the back end and get into post, uh, 437 00:22:07,780 --> 00:22:14,680 post-pack development, uh, utilizing node JS, uh, like my SQL, uh, Python on the back end, 438 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,300 uh, and things like that. 439 00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:21,720 And in addition to your coursework, there's actually like a mountain of information on 440 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,740 the computers because, uh, we are incarcerated in the last mile, uh, when we don't have access 441 00:22:26,740 --> 00:22:27,500 to the internet. 442 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,660 So they just basically put a bunch of stuff on a server, like a local server. 443 00:22:31,780 --> 00:22:33,580 And then we utilize it from there. 444 00:22:33,820 --> 00:22:37,860 But in addition to the coursework, you can learn like all types of things. 445 00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:43,720 Like I was doing PHP and a few other things on my own that wasn't necessarily on our curriculum. 446 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,400 And, and so like, what kind of apps did you work on? 447 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,340 Oh, like, okay. 448 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,180 Me, I worked on games. 449 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:59,080 So, uh, I, I, me and myself, I did like, uh, Space Invaders clone and like other little 450 00:22:59,080 --> 00:22:59,440 games. 451 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,780 I did like on runners because like back then, like with video basic, I found out that like 452 00:23:04,780 --> 00:23:10,880 you actually utilize a lot of a language if you build games because games are like encompassed 453 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:16,340 so much that you pretty much dissipate all types of, well, all parts of a language when 454 00:23:16,340 --> 00:23:18,780 you do like, say a 3D game for instance. 455 00:23:18,780 --> 00:23:19,660 Oh, I see. 456 00:23:19,740 --> 00:23:20,040 I see. 457 00:23:20,220 --> 00:23:23,760 You mean, you mean all parts of a, like the programming language, flex all the language. 458 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:24,580 Yeah, the programming language. 459 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:25,040 Yeah. 460 00:23:25,180 --> 00:23:25,380 Yeah. 461 00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:25,680 Yeah. 462 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:31,500 And you know, I, I never really like, uh, uh, programmed anything that was graphical and 463 00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:36,780 it always, and kind of to your point, like it, it always made actual, like creating pixels 464 00:23:36,780 --> 00:23:41,580 on the screen, a strange oddity for me, which, uh, was too bad, but I guess, I guess, you know, 465 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,680 obviously doing a game programming, it's nice to have visual things, uh, moving around. 466 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,040 Let me, uh, I want to back up. 467 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,040 Cause you mentioned kind of just in passing there, you know, being offline for most of 468 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,840 this, you're not just jumping on stack overflow. 469 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,080 You're not just trolling Google to look for results. 470 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,420 You're not just jumping in a group saying, Hey, I can't figure this out. 471 00:24:00,420 --> 00:24:05,080 So how do you think that impacted how you learned when you just had an offline data set 472 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,020 and whatever was in there? 473 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,380 I think you had mentioned to me that that's usually, you know, months or even a year or 474 00:24:09,380 --> 00:24:14,380 so kind of a, of a cache of stack overflow questions and answers, but how does not having 475 00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:18,320 that outlet change how you learn, whether how you have to learn from other people or trial 476 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:18,580 and error. 477 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:19,420 Can you tell us about that? 478 00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:20,460 Oh, yes. 479 00:24:20,460 --> 00:24:27,340 It definitely makes for interesting learning because we would have like states with choreos 480 00:24:27,340 --> 00:24:32,060 and things, or maybe on stack overflow, we find because we're looking up answers and it 481 00:24:32,060 --> 00:24:37,160 maintains like a specific technology or specific, uh, in-game module. 482 00:24:37,340 --> 00:24:38,520 And we don't have it. 483 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:44,460 Like when we do in-game as well, we had a local repository of node modules and we wouldn't 484 00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:45,240 be able to use it. 485 00:24:45,380 --> 00:24:50,260 So we have to basically like try things out until it works. 486 00:24:50,460 --> 00:24:52,560 And like figure, figure stuff out. 487 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,900 So it was really interesting, uh, especially since like in the beginning of the last month 488 00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:01,640 program, like we didn't even have computers for our first month. 489 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:08,620 Like we had to go over, uh, the HMS test books and like literally write all our code by hand 490 00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:11,040 for like a whole month until we got our computers. 491 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,920 And then like, we were able to see whether the stuff that we've been writing actually makes 492 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,260 sense, like, or how it looks. 493 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:17,620 Whoa. 494 00:25:17,740 --> 00:25:19,060 You had your code stuff by hand? 495 00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:26,080 That's how did you have to like, uh, you know, indent it correctly and everything, even 496 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,260 though you were doing it by hand? 497 00:25:27,260 --> 00:25:35,740 That must've been, uh, and then like, uh, we did a group project and we had to recreate 498 00:25:35,740 --> 00:25:38,500 this one fast food restaurant website. 499 00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:44,300 And then we all did it by hand, like, and then they gave every team a computer and then we 500 00:25:44,300 --> 00:25:44,800 input it. 501 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,120 They're like, Oh no, don't change nothing. 502 00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:51,620 Put the HTML, the CSS, put it all out there and see if it looks like we thought it was 503 00:25:51,620 --> 00:25:52,000 going to look. 504 00:25:52,580 --> 00:26:00,440 And, uh, but that kind of discipline, it's gotta be, I mean, I don't know. 505 00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:04,840 I'm, I'm awful about a copy paste developing at this point because it's just like, Oh, it's 506 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:05,120 quicker. 507 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:06,280 Let me, I found this snippet. 508 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:06,980 That's good enough. 509 00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:09,880 And it's, but you don't always learn, you know, I don't think it was deeply learned 510 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:10,480 the syntax. 511 00:26:10,580 --> 00:26:11,360 You don't learn those things. 512 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,060 So, I mean, has that changed me now that we're, we'll, we'll go back to kind of where, how 513 00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:16,280 you got to where you are right now. 514 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,480 But has that even today, like, do you code any differently? 515 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,940 You think because of that experience, have you found yourself kind of how you even pick 516 00:26:24,940 --> 00:26:25,720 up things now? 517 00:26:25,780 --> 00:26:27,440 Do you immediately go to the online source? 518 00:26:27,540 --> 00:26:29,540 Do you find yourself doing trial and error first? 519 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,880 How, how did, how did you think that that impacted how you do things today? 520 00:26:33,140 --> 00:26:37,520 Uh, I think it impacted, yeah, I think it definitely did impact how I do things today. 521 00:26:38,340 --> 00:26:43,620 Uh, believe it or not, like, I actually still do write down code sometimes. 522 00:26:43,620 --> 00:26:48,000 Like, I have a game of notebooks right here at my house and I just constantly write notes. 523 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,640 Uh, maybe at work, I can't do that all the time, but I can directly come home and study 524 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,780 stuff and write notes and things like that. 525 00:26:56,140 --> 00:27:02,840 But, uh, when I do run into problems, uh, it's interesting because I think that I have 526 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,420 a certain way of Googling stuff. 527 00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:06,320 I get to just like find the answers. 528 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,740 And I think it's because how you mentioned earlier, we did have a, in my program, we did 529 00:27:11,740 --> 00:27:19,740 have a offline repository of a stack overflow, but that only lasted, uh, June 2016. 530 00:27:19,740 --> 00:27:27,580 Uh, yeah, June, 2016 and I joined the program in like September for like, you find ways 531 00:27:27,580 --> 00:27:29,940 to like look up stuff and things like that. 532 00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:30,700 Wow. 533 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:31,180 Yeah. 534 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,160 And even as you said, the modules is interesting. 535 00:27:33,260 --> 00:27:37,580 If it's not part of your cached module pool for node, like you don't get to use that library 536 00:27:37,580 --> 00:27:41,280 that parses strings or talks to this sort of database that you just have, you have what 537 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,500 you have, which sometimes constraints are freeing, at least in my, where I think it's sometimes 538 00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:49,300 you're more creative when you have to work within constraints. 539 00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:52,920 But at the same time, I'm sure there's times where you just wanted to solve the problem 540 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,220 with the easy way and you couldn't use the easy way. 541 00:27:56,420 --> 00:27:57,340 Yes, definitely. 542 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:03,960 I remember one time me and a friend in the last mile, we actually needed a node module 543 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,980 and the node module, it wasn't even that big. 544 00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:10,380 Like it was literally like one, like 3000 line file. 545 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,740 And then me and this guy like literally took like two days of class time because we were 546 00:28:15,740 --> 00:28:19,620 able to get a printout of the node module and we just like copied it. 547 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,840 We just like had a hand type it in, like the 3000 lines of code, like, oh man. 548 00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:24,280 Wow. 549 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:25,440 Yeah. 550 00:28:25,620 --> 00:28:29,400 So tell us a little bit about when you exited the program. 551 00:28:29,460 --> 00:28:32,320 So you got out, your sentence was done, you're finished the last mile. 552 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:33,840 Was that it? 553 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,360 And did they kind of also steer you towards something else? 554 00:28:36,380 --> 00:28:38,820 I think you told me you got into a coding bootcamp. 555 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:41,460 Can you tell us kind of what was the first things you were doing when you were finished? 556 00:28:41,460 --> 00:28:42,020 Oh yeah. 557 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:47,820 So, uh, I actually finished my sentence, uh, October 26th lesson. 558 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:55,820 So, uh, when I got out on October 30th, because I was like making phone calls and things on 559 00:28:55,820 --> 00:29:00,520 October 30th, I had an interview for a boot, uh, web development bootcamp called General 560 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:00,880 Assembly. 561 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,340 So, uh, I went there and I did an interview. 562 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,220 Like I don't really have nothing because you know, I didn't have to post them out here. 563 00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:09,580 I'm four days out. 564 00:29:10,140 --> 00:29:15,800 What I did have though was three shots of my capstone project from last mile, because 565 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:21,620 each, each chat, like you have to, like the chat culminates in like a final capstone project. 566 00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:28,240 So I just literally had printouts of the projects that I did inside and I took those to my, my 567 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:28,560 interview. 568 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,580 Oh, that's, that makes sense. 569 00:29:31,140 --> 00:29:32,160 That's, that's clever. 570 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,600 That would, that would be fun to, uh, uh, show up with printouts at an interview. 571 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,880 Yeah, but I mean, you can't have a GitHub repo, I'm sure. 572 00:29:41,060 --> 00:29:43,320 So it's not like I can't just point people to my source code. 573 00:29:43,460 --> 00:29:46,500 So that's the, the one creative way to show you, show your portfolio. 574 00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:47,740 So it's at least, it's good. 575 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:48,860 You were able to do that at least. 576 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:49,500 That's great. 577 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:49,800 Yeah. 578 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:56,040 I had to do something and it was good that one of my projects was actually, uh, since I 579 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:01,380 knew I was getting out, my second capstone project, I actually did a, uh, like a web 580 00:30:01,380 --> 00:30:04,680 development portfolio and I just threw out types of projects in it. 581 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,060 So like, they got pictures of that. 582 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,580 And you, you said you were in the program for, remind me, a year or two. 583 00:30:10,820 --> 00:30:12,620 How long were you in the last mile before you were out? 584 00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:21,800 I was in the program from 2016 to like, like September, 2016 to September, 2018. 585 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,320 Mind you, we had like, uh, you know, it is prison, things happen. 586 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,540 So we had like a few months out there, a few weeks and so. 587 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,760 But for the most part, it was mostly continuous that whole time. 588 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,200 I think you had told me that was something that, you know, it was a big part of your day 589 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:36,580 too, right? 590 00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:38,180 I mean, it wasn't like 30 minutes a day. 591 00:30:38,180 --> 00:30:40,760 This was a big portion of your day and something you looked forward to. 592 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:41,360 Oh yeah. 593 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,080 It was definitely a big portion of our day. 594 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,140 I can definitely say like, mostly everyone in the program, you know, like once you get 595 00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:53,520 in the program, it takes a little while, but by like that first week, that's how you're 596 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,820 thinking about like, you're dreaming about code, like you're waking up at three in the 597 00:30:56,820 --> 00:31:01,840 morning, writing stuff down and like, it's just like real sad and like you wake up and 598 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,800 they're like, Oh, no class today. 599 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:04,880 Wow. 600 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,340 And it was, I think you said this was three, four, five hours a day, wasn't it? 601 00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:11,420 So you probably have more coding training than I do after 20 years in this business. 602 00:31:12,180 --> 00:31:14,600 Oh, there's like a six hours a day. 603 00:31:14,820 --> 00:31:16,780 Six hours a day for a couple of years on their off. 604 00:31:16,860 --> 00:31:17,500 That's, that's amazing. 605 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:17,920 Okay. 606 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,920 So then you did the bootcamp, right? 607 00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:23,400 So you were in general assembly and then tell us kind of how in the world did you bump into 608 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:23,700 the pivotal? 609 00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:24,440 Oh, wow. 610 00:31:24,620 --> 00:31:28,600 So, uh, I told us that is, I had my interview with a general assembly. 611 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,760 Uh, it took about like seven days. 612 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:38,340 Uh, I got a call back from them saying I was accepted program and they mentioned that I needed 613 00:31:38,340 --> 00:31:41,280 a Mac, a MacBook and actually didn't have a MacBook. 614 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:48,320 But, uh, before I got out, my wife bought me a laptop, but it wasn't a MacBook and I couldn't 615 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,280 really do like a lot of the code stuff on it. 616 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:56,700 So I actually reached out to the last mile to see if they had, uh, any like MacBooks 617 00:31:56,700 --> 00:31:57,520 or anything like that. 618 00:31:58,180 --> 00:32:05,040 And they actually were, they were looking for someone to donate a laptop to me and they actually 619 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,500 found this amazing woman. 620 00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:10,960 And when I went to go meet her to pick up the laptop, like she's like, well, yeah, just 621 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:11,960 meet me in my office. 622 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,180 It's right here in Santa Monica. 623 00:32:13,620 --> 00:32:18,200 So I went out there never having like ever heard a pivot or anything like that. 624 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,600 I went in and she just drove me around the place and it was, it was amazing. 625 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,520 It was actually my first tech company I ever stepped into, uh, just make a note of that. 626 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,680 Oh, and then you came to the, you came to, uh, one of them with all the, uh, the free snacks. 627 00:32:32,060 --> 00:32:32,180 Yeah. 628 00:32:32,180 --> 00:32:33,020 The Santa Monica, right? 629 00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:33,620 Yeah. 630 00:32:33,740 --> 00:32:33,900 Yeah. 631 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:34,700 It'd be very nice. 632 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,140 That's a, that's a good first experience. 633 00:32:38,900 --> 00:32:40,260 I mean, it's right by the beach. 634 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:40,960 I mean, man. 635 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,800 But yeah, so, uh, uh, I got it, I got it, I ended up getting a laptop from this woman at 636 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:49,280 Pivotal. 637 00:32:49,620 --> 00:32:51,400 And then like, we went off to learn. 638 00:32:51,580 --> 00:32:54,640 She was talking to me about, uh, my experience in the last mile program. 639 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,380 Uh, he moved, he, I heard that I was going to the boot camp and things like that. 640 00:32:59,420 --> 00:33:04,680 And the next thing I know, a couple of weeks later, uh, she emails me and she's like, Hey, 641 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:06,820 send your resume to this guy. 642 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,740 And I didn't even know what it was for. 643 00:33:09,820 --> 00:33:11,700 I just, I just sent, I just sent the resume out. 644 00:33:11,780 --> 00:33:12,100 I was like, okay. 645 00:33:12,860 --> 00:33:14,720 And how, how, how long ago was that? 646 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:15,840 Uh, wow. 647 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:21,080 So I actually met her in December of 2018. 648 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,400 Uh, I sent my resume, I think in January of 2019. 649 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:34,680 And then I had a, uh, interview with Pivotal for an intern position, which I, uh, passed the 650 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,720 first one of the interviews, went to the second round and made my intern for the summer at 651 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:39,860 Pivotal Labs in Santa Monica. 652 00:33:40,380 --> 00:33:40,980 All right. 653 00:33:40,980 --> 00:33:44,040 So it's been like a, like a, a year total since this. 654 00:33:44,540 --> 00:33:44,940 Yeah. 655 00:33:45,020 --> 00:33:45,640 And then, more or less. 656 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,520 And then after your internship that we, we offered you your full-time, so you're a full-time 657 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,080 engineer in Pivotal Labs, right? 658 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,940 I did get an internship and, uh, at the end of it, I did get a full-time offer, which I 659 00:33:56,940 --> 00:33:57,720 readily accepted. 660 00:33:59,540 --> 00:33:59,900 Awesome. 661 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,640 So, and you've, yeah, you've done some, some good projects so far and things like that. 662 00:34:03,660 --> 00:34:05,540 I mean, would you look back at all this? 663 00:34:05,580 --> 00:34:09,680 Have you kept in touch with any of your last mile kind of colleagues and, and kind of shared 664 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:10,540 your progress with them? 665 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:18,660 Uh, yes, uh, like, there's about, like, probably over 70 last mile alumni out on the street. 666 00:34:19,260 --> 00:34:21,300 I'm in contact with some of them. 667 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,460 Um, and even people still locked up inside. 668 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:32,780 Uh, I'm in contact with them, uh, as far as, like, shooting books and resources, any core 669 00:34:32,780 --> 00:34:34,160 technologies I heard about. 670 00:34:34,260 --> 00:34:38,440 I'm like, hey, you know, try to get them to think about it because some are getting out. 671 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:39,540 I'm sure it's inspiring. 672 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,480 Yeah, there's some really good coders out there, you know? 673 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:43,160 Yeah. 674 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,200 They're like, oh, you got to have all you got there, you know? 675 00:34:45,620 --> 00:34:47,540 Just kind of see what I'm doing, see what's out here. 676 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,840 Kind of get them ready for when they come up too, so. 677 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,880 So, one of the, one of the things I, uh, I, I talk with people a lot, or I should say 678 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,200 I talk with them, they, they, uh, they, they get all uppity about is like, we have 679 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,760 all these, uh, existing programmers, uh, and we want to do, we want, it's, it's hard 680 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:11,120 for us to basically train them in a new way of doing development or, uh, doing, doing whatever, 681 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,440 doing releases more frequently or whatever the case may be. 682 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:19,800 And, and like, what, what, what were like, like somewhat when, when you started working 683 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,600 at Pivotal, like, uh, I imagine that it was slightly different than the, the programming 684 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:30,880 you'd done two times before back in the RPG times and, uh, and, uh, at last mile, but 685 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,400 like, how do you, I don't know, what, what, what, what can you like tell these people about 686 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:41,480 like, uh, it's actually okay to, to, to retrain people to do programming? 687 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,980 Like, like how did you kind of set up a curriculum for yourself to like, just like learn new methods 688 00:35:46,980 --> 00:35:49,120 of doing things as, as they came along? 689 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,120 Oh, wow. 690 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:56,920 Well, I don't know if my method is recommended, but yeah, uh, when I came in the Pivotal Labs, 691 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,800 it was definitely, it was definitely an experience. 692 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:05,560 Like I came in, you know, as an intern and as an intern, like you're just treated like, 693 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:11,160 you know, regular self-engineered, just owning a project on a different page, you know, uh, 694 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:16,120 I get on the project and we have, we like, luckily we didn't have Colin, like, 695 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,880 we started and they're like, oh, Larry Collins, I was, I'm like studying all this stuff. 696 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:26,000 And we get on, we had TypeScript, which I've done JavaScript, but I haven't done TypeScript 697 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:26,400 before. 698 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,920 And there was like a lot of generic and stuff that I just like, was like, whoa, what, what 699 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:32,900 is that right there? 700 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:38,400 So like, like I took it up post, I was like, when I see something I don't understand, I wrote 701 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,880 it down and I like literally went home at night and I just like studied until I understood 702 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,160 it or at least understood enough of it. 703 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:46,920 Yeah. 704 00:36:47,140 --> 00:36:47,380 Yeah. 705 00:36:47,380 --> 00:36:49,960 I mean, you have to have some, uh, curiosity, I guess. 706 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:55,500 And, and it seems like that's the thing I'm always thinking about, like, uh, making sure 707 00:36:55,500 --> 00:37:00,900 staff and our people are kind of keeping their skills updated is, uh, in general, it seems 708 00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:05,660 like people who are programmers, they were originally curious about programming and interested in 709 00:37:05,660 --> 00:37:06,340 learning new things. 710 00:37:06,340 --> 00:37:10,260 So it's almost like you've got to, uh, set up that environment where they're given the 711 00:37:10,260 --> 00:37:14,860 chance to chase down their curiosities and, uh, and kind of like you were describing, like 712 00:37:14,860 --> 00:37:19,840 dangle confusing mysteries in front of them, like, like what generics are so that they can 713 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:20,360 go solve. 714 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,620 But do you feel, I mean, it's great. 715 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,620 I'm glad you brought up Coté, cause we saw that at SpringOne with the Home Depot talking 716 00:37:27,620 --> 00:37:31,700 about their program of just kind of offering coding bootcamps to employees and things like 717 00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:31,860 that. 718 00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:36,460 Did you notice Demetrius, even in the last mile program, people who are completely new to programming 719 00:37:36,460 --> 00:37:40,440 and found it intimidating, is there something that helps them get over that and said, yep, 720 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:46,000 anybody with a, you know, sharp mind and curiosity can be great at programming. 721 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,160 Did you experience, did you see people who were a little scared getting started and then really 722 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:50,740 figured it out? 723 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:51,600 Oh, yes. 724 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:57,540 Like, uh, in last mile, the facility I was in, we definitely had people who were new to programming. 725 00:37:57,540 --> 00:38:02,400 We had people that were like, had been locked up for a long time that were actually new 726 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:09,140 computers, so, like, they had, like, two-fold to learn, so, but, uh, yeah, it's just, like, 727 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,960 they could, uh, they studied and just, like, kept going. 728 00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:17,160 Like, it didn't really get to them that it was taking a while. 729 00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:21,800 Some people pick up those, like, times and others, like, like, you're good at it, just 730 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:22,720 keep going, you know? 731 00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:23,220 Absolutely. 732 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,500 But it's a good, hopefully, you know, your story as well as, you know, other folks in 733 00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:28,080 that situation. 734 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,820 It's cool that there's a lot of us who aren't traditional programmers, right? 735 00:38:31,820 --> 00:38:35,700 And again, I'm a political science major who pretends to be a developer now and a marketer. 736 00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:39,900 So, everyone comes from different backgrounds for this stuff, and I think it's pretty cool 737 00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:43,840 that you don't have to have been building operating systems from age four to get into programming. 738 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,340 Like, a lot of people can do this for fun, for whatever, and even if it's a little scary, 739 00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:51,260 you're, you're showing that, hey, people even in, in kind of constrained environments 740 00:38:51,260 --> 00:38:55,160 with offline access and certain things can, can be super successful with it. 741 00:38:55,180 --> 00:38:57,300 So, I mean, that's, I don't know, that's really inspiring to me. 742 00:38:57,300 --> 00:38:59,780 Oh, yeah, it is, it really is. 743 00:38:59,940 --> 00:39:04,520 So, so, as promised, back to the role-playing games that you mentioned earlier. 744 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,720 Yeah, let's get back to the good stuff. 745 00:39:07,820 --> 00:39:13,180 So, so, after all this time, do you still program role-playing game things? 746 00:39:13,340 --> 00:39:16,640 Is that, is that something that you, you play around with still? 747 00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:19,360 Oh, when I got out, I did. 748 00:39:19,660 --> 00:39:22,740 For like a while, I'm about to actually get back into it. 749 00:39:22,740 --> 00:39:27,500 I did actually take a little break to go over a couple new languages. 750 00:39:29,380 --> 00:39:34,380 So, I'm about to get back into it and use the stuff I've learned. 751 00:39:35,380 --> 00:39:40,120 And, and so like, like what, what kind of, what, what kind of games are you planning on making? 752 00:39:40,220 --> 00:39:44,040 Like, are you going to, do you program them or do you play like a tabletop ones or like, 753 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,140 what are, what are the games? 754 00:39:45,580 --> 00:39:51,480 Oh, actually, just like, I like programming 2D, oh, things like old school Zelda, you know, 755 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:52,680 like top-down RPG. 756 00:39:53,100 --> 00:39:53,940 Oh, yeah, yeah. 757 00:39:55,660 --> 00:40:03,660 I never really got into a 3D game, but that's because I can't use graphics programs to save my life. 758 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:05,120 Right. 759 00:40:05,780 --> 00:40:08,320 Well, yeah, yeah, that's, that sounds like it's fun. 760 00:40:08,420 --> 00:40:12,740 Well, we'll have to, you'll have to send over once you get, you get some programmed up. 761 00:40:12,980 --> 00:40:13,920 I'll have to check them out. 762 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:15,020 That, that'll be fun. 763 00:40:15,060 --> 00:40:16,960 I'll definitely send you a link. 764 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:23,860 You know, after you've learned, you know, about whatever generics are and how to, how to program 765 00:40:23,860 --> 00:40:26,840 things better, I'm sure the gameplay is going to be phenomenal after that. 766 00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:29,340 You're not constrained to just visual basic. 767 00:40:30,420 --> 00:40:33,960 The world, the world, the world will be your tops down oyster. 768 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:35,540 Everything will look great. 769 00:40:36,220 --> 00:40:37,140 Well, well, thanks. 770 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,080 Thanks for being on. 771 00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:42,000 I, it was, it was, it was good, good talking with you. 772 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,120 And also now I have some games to look forward to. 773 00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:47,400 Do you have a, if people wanted to like, do you have like a, 774 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,740 a Twitter account or anything like that, that people could check up on if they're interested 775 00:40:51,740 --> 00:40:52,120 in more? 776 00:40:53,340 --> 00:40:55,220 Oh, Twitter account. 777 00:40:55,540 --> 00:40:57,220 No, actually I don't. 778 00:40:59,420 --> 00:41:03,540 They'll just have to search you on the internet for GitHub or other spots to, to follow you 779 00:41:03,540 --> 00:41:03,880 online. 780 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,900 I'm on LinkedIn, Demetrius Robinson. 781 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,160 That's D-E-M-E-T-R-I-O-U-S. 782 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,300 You can find me there and my contact information. 783 00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:15,140 Awesome. 784 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,500 That's the, that's the common denominator. 785 00:41:17,620 --> 00:41:18,820 Most everyone always has. 786 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:19,480 That's right. 787 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:20,320 There's always that. 788 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:20,860 All right. 789 00:41:20,900 --> 00:41:21,920 Well, well, great. 790 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:22,740 Well, thanks again. 791 00:41:22,740 --> 00:41:26,240 And as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations. 792 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,760 If you want to get this episode and all the other ones, you want to download them directly. 793 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,660 You can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations. 794 00:41:34,020 --> 00:41:39,820 And also usually every Thursday when we have an episode, or I should say Thursdays when we have 795 00:41:39,820 --> 00:41:43,640 an episode, you can find it at pivotal.io slash podcast. 796 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,020 And with that, we'll see everyone next time. 797 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:46,700 Bye-bye.