1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,860
Well, Richard, I came back from, I was going to say Australia, but that's not at all.

2
00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:10,900
I came back from Austin on yesterday, and I think I gained five pounds.

3
00:00:11,580 --> 00:00:13,020
That's the American measurement.

4
00:00:13,140 --> 00:00:13,520
It's great.

5
00:00:14,260 --> 00:00:15,520
And now I'm back here.

6
00:00:15,580 --> 00:00:16,300
I'm biking around.

7
00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:18,440
I'm going to see if that's all with salt weight.

8
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,220
You know, when you eat out, you eat a lot of salt, and your body retains water, and

9
00:00:22,220 --> 00:00:24,780
then you just like two days later, you're like, oh, I lost 20 pounds.

10
00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:25,640
That was a lot of salt.

11
00:00:25,940 --> 00:00:29,640
But I think it was all the tacos and steak that I did.

12
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,160
I went to one friend's house who was there, and I didn't measure it, but I feel like they

13
00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:37,960
gave me at least a 10-ounce steak, which was delicious.

14
00:00:38,180 --> 00:00:38,720
And it was nice.

15
00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,200
And I think I realized, you know, I like to complain about how the meat in Europe is not

16
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,500
compatible with flavor.

17
00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:51,160
And I think the reason is because American steaks are full of fat, and you got the fat

18
00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:56,500
there, whereas if you just eat meat without fat, it turns out it's healthy.

19
00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:58,560
But I guess healthier.

20
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:00,400
I guess the debate's out on meat.

21
00:01:00,860 --> 00:01:01,300
I don't know.

22
00:01:01,740 --> 00:01:01,900
Right.

23
00:01:03,020 --> 00:01:07,320
What was the thing that you ate when you first got to Austin?

24
00:01:07,420 --> 00:01:08,520
You're like, oh, I missed that.

25
00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:09,820
Like, what was the first thing?

26
00:01:10,220 --> 00:01:11,120
I had some barbecue.

27
00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:12,880
This is right next to the hotel.

28
00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:14,720
So I got, what did I get?

29
00:01:14,740 --> 00:01:15,460
I got some ribs.

30
00:01:15,860 --> 00:01:22,040
And no, no, I got some brisket and a beef rib, and of course, a little thing of beans and

31
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,060
some coleslaw and jalapenos.

32
00:01:24,300 --> 00:01:25,380
You got to get a lot of jalapenos.

33
00:01:25,540 --> 00:01:26,540
You just get that with every meal.

34
00:01:27,220 --> 00:01:28,900
And I brought some of those back in a can.

35
00:01:29,020 --> 00:01:33,800
You get your San Marcos, 16-ounce, 32-ounce can of jalapenos.

36
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,480
That'll probably last me a while, maybe a couple weeks or so.

37
00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,340
You're just putting them on all your herring now or whatever you eat in another one.

38
00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:42,720
Exactly.

39
00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:43,420
That's right.

40
00:01:43,420 --> 00:01:44,420
Just put them on the herring.

41
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:52,080
That's what every day, you know what they say, a herring a day keeps you eating herring.

42
00:01:55,980 --> 00:01:56,940
I'm not really sure.

43
00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:58,400
You know, herring's not so bad.

44
00:01:58,460 --> 00:02:00,320
It's basically like really greasy sushi.

45
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,340
As always, I'm really good at describing food, making it advertising.

46
00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:06,240
But it's not so bad.

47
00:02:06,340 --> 00:02:06,960
It's good.

48
00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:08,880
It's a good food.

49
00:02:09,180 --> 00:02:12,300
Well, we have two guests on who were at SpringOne Platform last week.

50
00:02:12,300 --> 00:02:13,400
Do you want to introduce yourself?

51
00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,500
And let's say alphabetical order by first name.

52
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:17,860
This is Brian Friedman.

53
00:02:17,980 --> 00:02:21,640
I'm a director of product marketing on the tech marketing team at Pivotal.

54
00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:23,460
Hi, I'm Danielle Burrow.

55
00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,780
I work on the product marketing team and I focus on customer storytelling at Pivotal.

56
00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,140
So Richard had a good idea.

57
00:02:30,220 --> 00:02:31,080
We should have you two on.

58
00:02:31,340 --> 00:02:34,880
We can talk about, you know, our memories of SpringOne Platform.

59
00:02:35,460 --> 00:02:39,940
And they shouldn't be, I can't do math, but was that 72 hours, four days?

60
00:02:40,060 --> 00:02:40,940
Not so long ago.

61
00:02:41,660 --> 00:02:42,780
How many hours are in a week?

62
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:44,200
I should calculate that.

63
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:45,740
That is a lot.

64
00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,680
I would told there'd be no math.

65
00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:48,700
I mean, this is early.

66
00:02:49,260 --> 00:02:49,660
That's right.

67
00:02:50,820 --> 00:02:51,700
It is early.

68
00:02:52,700 --> 00:02:56,600
But before that, as always, we have just a sprinkling of news to go over.

69
00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,460
Now, what with having our big conference last week.

70
00:02:59,540 --> 00:03:04,880
Also, if you were looking forward for a discount code for SpringOne Platform, it's too late.

71
00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:05,520
Sorry.

72
00:03:05,820 --> 00:03:08,160
Hopefully, you used the ones we were advertising about.

73
00:03:08,500 --> 00:03:10,400
Maybe we'll spin some up for next year.

74
00:03:11,020 --> 00:03:13,480
We can probably make a guess of what the format will be.

75
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:23,820
But I think there was, we had a roundup of Pivotal Application Service stuff that we can go over.

76
00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,900
It was always a very detailed blog post because there was so much of it.

77
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:27,740
I was overwhelmed.

78
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,440
It's sort of like, I'm sure as y'all experience, when you go get breakfast tacos, you're like,

79
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:33,660
I thought this was a simple thing.

80
00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,600
And then basically, someone took all the funny words in a dictionary, and that's the type of taco you can get.

81
00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:40,420
And various famous singers.

82
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,080
So it's very overwhelming what to get.

83
00:03:43,020 --> 00:03:44,740
But there's a lot of features we can go over.

84
00:03:44,820 --> 00:03:55,800
But one thing slightly related is that there's the Azure Spring Cloud service, which over there in, as the name would imply, Azure, Microsoft's cloud, you may be familiar with.

85
00:03:56,140 --> 00:03:59,820
They have essentially running, I don't know, how would you describe it?

86
00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:01,280
Fully integrated, natively?

87
00:04:01,500 --> 00:04:05,780
What do the cloud kids say when they want to say it's sort of like integrated into it?

88
00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,880
Yeah, I mean, those are some of the words that some people use.

89
00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:16,380
I think first-party managed service is a popular way to say this isn't some weird add-on.

90
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,440
It's like literally part of portals and command line interfaces.

91
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,840
So it's like a legit first-party piece of the application.

92
00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:23,520
I'm writing that down.

93
00:04:23,820 --> 00:04:25,400
First-party service.

94
00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:27,980
Managed service.

95
00:04:28,340 --> 00:04:29,160
Managed service.

96
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:35,180
That's, you know, you go to the first party, you hang out there for a little while, you go to the second party, then you go home.

97
00:04:35,660 --> 00:04:39,240
I think is the way it goes, as long as you're not too partied out.

98
00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:45,420
But it essentially takes Spring Cloud and deploys it on top of the Azure Kubernetes service for you.

99
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:53,180
And using K-Packs, which always makes me think of that old movie, the guy who claims he's an alien, but I don't think it's related at all.

100
00:04:53,920 --> 00:05:01,800
And it allows you essentially to use a lot of the kind of microservice and service management-oriented things that are in Spring Cloud.

101
00:05:02,220 --> 00:05:03,660
And it also has Spring Boot in there.

102
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:13,860
So you get the, I'm referring to my notes, a first-party managed service of using Spring on AKS and Azure Spring Cloud.

103
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:21,100
Along with all of this, as you would expect, monitoring and integrate things like that, which I think, you know, people love using Spring Boot.

104
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,420
Do we have some latest figures on that that we like to quote?

105
00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:26,480
Millions of downloads a month?

106
00:05:27,580 --> 00:05:29,460
Yeah, all the tens of millions of downloads.

107
00:05:29,460 --> 00:05:39,060
I mean, that's a weird vanity number that we don't try to use too much because it's hard to indicate that's not an outcome versus, you know, the million and a half projects you create at start.spring.io every month.

108
00:05:39,180 --> 00:05:39,880
That's a real outcome.

109
00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:40,680
That's a project.

110
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:41,740
That's right.

111
00:05:42,060 --> 00:05:47,640
And I think once you get into those numbers, you can say lots of people seem to like using it.

112
00:05:47,980 --> 00:05:50,260
I think that's the qualitative metric.

113
00:05:50,540 --> 00:05:58,880
Yeah, and outside of what Pivotal makes, I mean, this Azure Spring Cloud thing is the first, I think, kind of opinionated language-specific platform.

114
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:03,320
Like most of these pads out there are just like, hey, whatever you want, bring it to us, any language.

115
00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,800
And this one is just targeting Spring Boot, really cloud-native microservices sort of stuff.

116
00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:08,980
Like that's its sweet spot.

117
00:06:09,060 --> 00:06:15,840
It's not trying to be everything to all people, which is actually somewhat unusual in the public cloud, which seems to be very much just, hey, bring anything.

118
00:06:16,580 --> 00:06:18,720
But this is much more specific, which is kind of refreshing.

119
00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:23,860
Yeah, so you have, of course, all the Microsoft.NET stuff in there.

120
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,460
Now you've got pretty thorough Java support, all sorts of other things.

121
00:06:27,580 --> 00:06:30,680
They're really being just a general purpose cloud.

122
00:06:31,740 --> 00:06:34,040
And definitely, it's fun to see.

123
00:06:34,220 --> 00:06:41,360
You know, and then did we talk, no, that was one of my other podcasts about how, you know, also there's Android being used in Microsoft land.

124
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:48,560
They've got all the great things now up there in Seattle, lots of logos to run across through in the city.

125
00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,240
Do they have a little Android guy somewhere?

126
00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,660
Remember, there used to always be a picture of that when a new version of Android would come out, holding like a chocolate bar or a cupcake?

127
00:06:57,860 --> 00:06:58,620
Yeah, the old robot.

128
00:06:58,840 --> 00:06:58,980
Yeah.

129
00:06:59,220 --> 00:07:00,960
No, I don't think they're always dessert-related.

130
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:03,380
Yeah, all the dessert-related.

131
00:07:03,820 --> 00:07:06,040
I'll have to look up what the latest release is.

132
00:07:06,100 --> 00:07:07,400
I wonder if they're going to have a candy corn.

133
00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:08,360
That would be fun.

134
00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,820
And I brought a bunch of those back and boy, you got to watch out.

135
00:07:11,980 --> 00:07:17,080
If you, I think maybe once you achieve five candy corns eaten, it's time to go take like a digestive break.

136
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,500
They are intense.

137
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,540
I think it's time to brush your teeth.

138
00:07:23,220 --> 00:07:23,740
It is.

139
00:07:23,980 --> 00:07:24,360
That's right.

140
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,520
They're the marshmallow peeps of Halloween.

141
00:07:26,860 --> 00:07:28,800
Like you can eat one of those and then you feel disgusting.

142
00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:29,780
Oh, yeah.

143
00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:35,180
And then when you get those, you get those big pumpkin ones that are like three times the size of the candy corn.

144
00:07:35,180 --> 00:07:36,720
Those will really, those will really do you.

145
00:07:37,620 --> 00:07:37,980
Yeah.

146
00:07:38,140 --> 00:07:39,340
Talk about market expansion.

147
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,020
That's a, that's a Harvard Business Review case study right there.

148
00:07:42,020 --> 00:07:46,420
When, when the people decided to get into Halloween, how, how was that achieved?

149
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:58,120
I wonder if they engaged with one of the big management consulting firms for like a summer strategy project and then had some sort of like, you know, 60 minute meeting that had been pre-wired with all the executive vice presidents.

150
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,980
And they, they probably even had a code name for it.

151
00:08:00,980 --> 00:08:02,560
Like, you know, project jack-o'-lantern.

152
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:16,420
I would, I mean, literally last week at SpringOne, I was talking to someone that I love the idea of like marketing and strategy for like just weird, like, you know, just weird swag things or things in the dollar store or peeps.

153
00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:22,940
Like there's a real marketing team around candy corn who comes up with cool slogans and brand strategy that I love that.

154
00:08:22,940 --> 00:08:24,200
Like that just makes me really happy.

155
00:08:24,740 --> 00:08:24,980
Yeah.

156
00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,260
I wonder if they use a lot of post-it notes and things.

157
00:08:28,220 --> 00:08:29,780
A lot of design thinking.

158
00:08:30,420 --> 00:08:30,580
Yeah.

159
00:08:31,060 --> 00:08:33,540
Just invite people in to discuss stuff like that.

160
00:08:33,580 --> 00:08:40,840
Well, you know, the last thing on that point, I was thinking, if you don't brush your teeth after the candy corns, they're in the right kind of shape that you could slot them in as a temporary tooth.

161
00:08:41,420 --> 00:08:41,800
May not.

162
00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,560
But you might be able to use them.

163
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,200
Probably not an unlabeled use.

164
00:08:47,500 --> 00:08:49,240
If I remember, that's what it's called.

165
00:08:50,940 --> 00:08:51,280
Yeah.

166
00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,920
I was going to say, it could also be kind of your Halloween costume.

167
00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:55,980
Like it's a dual purpose.

168
00:08:57,020 --> 00:08:58,260
We'll bring this all together.

169
00:08:59,180 --> 00:09:03,580
That might also, that almost be like an adventure time thing to have like a candy zombie.

170
00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:11,780
We've got a candy corn, you know, my mouth and maybe a head made of, you know, a marshmallow peep or Halloween peep.

171
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:12,940
Try that out.

172
00:09:13,740 --> 00:09:15,220
I won't be sleeping tonight.

173
00:09:16,060 --> 00:09:16,540
Yeah.

174
00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:17,380
The thing of nightmare.

175
00:09:18,180 --> 00:09:18,840
That's right.

176
00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:27,000
Well, so also we should probably just in the, as always, we have a comprehensive blog post.

177
00:09:27,020 --> 00:09:29,020
About what's in past 2.7.

178
00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:30,880
All sorts of exciting things in there.

179
00:09:31,380 --> 00:09:34,420
We should probably pick one or two things to highlight in there.

180
00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:35,720
How about, how about yourself, Richard?

181
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,180
What, what do you think is a fun thing in the most recent release?

182
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:40,560
Yeah.

183
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,700
I mean, all, you know, rolling deployments are always fun.

184
00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,940
But I think, you know, one thing I heard a ton last week at SpringOne was all this talk about Spring Cloud Gateway, which is interesting.

185
00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,940
And so the beta release of the pivotal kind of managed version of that.

186
00:09:50,940 --> 00:09:56,300
So if you want all these little micro gateways out there for your, your APIs and web apps and things like that,

187
00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,360
that's a, now a managed experience in, in kind of Spring Cloud services.

188
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:01,560
So people could try that out.

189
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,520
You stole my thunder, Richard, with the Spring Cloud Gateway.

190
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,160
There was a lot of talk about that at SpringOne.

191
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,320
So I was, I was pretty interested to see what, what's going to come out of that with, with PAS 2.7.

192
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:10,720
Right.

193
00:10:10,980 --> 00:10:11,180
Yeah.

194
00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,720
So, yeah, you know, I, I was, I was, I was looking through things.

195
00:10:14,780 --> 00:10:17,080
I mean, there's two things that, that, that stood out to me.

196
00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:24,400
One, that the compliance scanner thing, I think is, is GA, which, you know, sounds thrilling, compliance scanners.

197
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,740
But I think that's a topic that comes up all the time as, as a barrier.

198
00:10:27,940 --> 00:10:40,100
And then more importantly, well, I don't know if it's more importantly, but you know, you can, you, you automate your compliance and security checking that often addresses and makes the lives of security and clients, compliance people better.

199
00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:47,300
Who, uh, usually, you know, they can, they can slow down your, uh, use of putting, uh, pivotal platform and things like that in place.

200
00:10:47,300 --> 00:10:48,480
So that's nice for them.

201
00:10:48,580 --> 00:10:54,800
And then I also noticed we've got, uh, in a couple of areas, there's, uh, Helm chart support, uh, which, which is fun.

202
00:10:54,800 --> 00:11:04,740
I think in the, uh, if I remember in the, uh, cloud build pack somewhere or no, it's, it's one of the Kubernetes things that ingests it and, uh, uses them to, uh, deploy things for you.

203
00:11:05,060 --> 00:11:09,140
And then also in, uh, oh, I didn't write the other one down, so I've forgotten it.

204
00:11:09,140 --> 00:11:14,260
But there's another area where those are, those are supported, which there you go.

205
00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:14,660
That's right.

206
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:26,840
So put into the, uh, the build pipeline so you can describe how you want things laid out and, uh, which, which seems to be a, uh, more and more accepted way to describe the, uh, topology.

207
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,240
Is that what you would call it of, uh, of what you want your, your cluster to look like?

208
00:11:31,900 --> 00:11:38,380
Uh, so then also, uh, announced last week was, uh, and, and I don't know, it's, it's been around sort of informally.

209
00:11:38,380 --> 00:11:41,560
Or at least as far as we've been, uh, observing it for a while.

210
00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:46,740
There's the Pivotal Vanguard group, which is essentially, uh, you, you would know better, Richard, than me.

211
00:11:46,740 --> 00:11:57,220
But it's like an MVP group, uh, to use the Microsoft terminology of some of the, uh, the top, like users and contributors and kind of people in the, uh, Pivotal Platform community.

212
00:11:57,500 --> 00:12:02,500
And I haven't gotten around to, uh, watching the recording of the panel where they were discussing, uh, things there.

213
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:09,320
But I think even some of our past guests are in there and, uh, people that you would know from the Pivotal Platform area and they kind of get together.

214
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:16,600
I think it's, uh, every couple of weeks and, uh, do what you would expect a, uh, sort of a, a top user community to do with each other.

215
00:12:17,020 --> 00:12:19,600
Did any of y'all have a chance to, to meet with any of them?

216
00:12:21,940 --> 00:12:29,600
Yeah, there was a mixer, uh, our own Rita Menaci put on, uh, Sunday night with a bunch of the vanguards as well as some of the industry analysts.

217
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,660
So we've got to spend some time together there catching up.

218
00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:33,640
Yeah, it's a great group.

219
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:44,380
Brian at Pivotal has done a wonderful job setting that up, making sure that team is regularly kind of fed interesting information, but also that they, they're feeding information back to engineering teams as well.

220
00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:49,300
That they are power users, so they actually know this stuff and they're able to help our teams make better products.

221
00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:53,360
Which is, if you're not doing the bi-directional thing, I don't find these programs as effective.

222
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,620
So it's nice that, that Brian and team here at Pivotal are doing a good job with that.

223
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,420
And then, uh, you know, it's, oh, it's great with you, Richard.

224
00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:02,960
We get all the great .NET news always comes up.

225
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,920
Really, you're going to, you're going to qualify, I think, for your MVP thing.

226
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:07,840
How long is that term?

227
00:13:07,900 --> 00:13:10,320
Is that a, is that a five-year term, six-year term?

228
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,420
Are we senatorial or more House of Representatives?

229
00:13:13,100 --> 00:13:17,220
I wish it was senatorial, but it is annual, where I'm stuck justifying my system.

230
00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:20,300
Wow, they're really putting the screws on there.

231
00:13:20,420 --> 00:13:25,380
I mean, I think if you have value one year, you should get at least two years of, of, you know, appreciation, right?

232
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:32,540
But, you know, you know, I don't know if you know this, but, uh, business has become fast moving.

233
00:13:33,060 --> 00:13:36,120
And, uh, you know, the rate of change is rapid.

234
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:43,760
So you've got to make sure that, uh, your, your valuable status is still applicable because you might shift yourself or choose to downshift.

235
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:49,300
And then you're just sort of like, you'll be in the SVP, the sort of valuable, uh, what's the P stand for?

236
00:13:49,420 --> 00:13:49,780
Player?

237
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:52,820
Professional here, but sure.

238
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,760
The quasi-valuable professional, whatever the acronym is going to be.

239
00:13:56,460 --> 00:13:59,160
Ah, so if you're an amateur, maybe you don't apply there.

240
00:13:59,180 --> 00:14:00,880
So you have to be paid for your awesomeness.

241
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,280
Is that the definition of an amateur, that you're, uh, not paid?

242
00:14:04,740 --> 00:14:05,840
Ah, that's right.

243
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:06,960
Okay, good.

244
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,060
I've got a lot of things that I'm learning in this episode, so that's good.

245
00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:11,320
No, we're solving a lot of things here.

246
00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:12,300
That's right.

247
00:14:12,780 --> 00:14:20,460
Uh, well, so, uh, what, what is the, uh, you know, essentially, I think, I think it's that, uh, on their, uh, their, what is it?

248
00:14:20,460 --> 00:14:21,960
Is it Elastic Container Service?

249
00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:23,500
Is that what EKS stands for?

250
00:14:24,860 --> 00:14:28,520
I don't know if they were as quirky as us, but I mean, it's Elastic Kubernetes Service, I think.

251
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:36,180
But it's, uh, yeah, I pointed out this one that, uh, I think this was the, this was the last of the big three clouds to add Windows support to their Kubernetes environment.

252
00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:39,720
So Microsoft did, of course, first, but Google was immediately after.

253
00:14:40,220 --> 00:14:43,540
Pivotal did this with PKS, again, at the same time.

254
00:14:43,980 --> 00:14:47,240
And then, uh, also now Amazon adds it.

255
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:53,200
So if you're, you know, doing Windows containers, you're looking for a hosted Kubernetes service, all three public clouds now support you.

256
00:14:53,500 --> 00:15:03,320
Obviously, you can do it anywhere with companies like Pivotal, but I think for those trying to do more Windows.net, migration of legacy stuff, or even some net new development, it's nice to have these options, finally.

257
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:04,680
And you're right.

258
00:15:04,780 --> 00:15:06,600
It's the Amazon Kubernetes service.

259
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:13,960
They're not, uh, for, for a company that's all about, like, two pizza teams, maybe that's one of their only quirky things, the two pizza teams.

260
00:15:13,980 --> 00:15:18,020
All business, all seriousness, no, uh, no silliness going on there.

261
00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:18,460
That's fine.

262
00:15:18,660 --> 00:15:25,820
Well, yeah, there was also, uh, some great sessions, actually, at Screaming Platform, talking about Windows containers running on Kubernetes.

263
00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:29,540
So, I mean, definitely some good info about that.

264
00:15:30,460 --> 00:15:31,660
Yeah, more mainstream now.

265
00:15:31,780 --> 00:15:34,020
That's not as, uh, bleeding edge as it was.

266
00:15:34,020 --> 00:15:37,400
Well, that's a good transition, which, uh, which is fantastic of you to do.

267
00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:43,540
We, we, uh, we, we thought, you know, we would, we would talk about our, uh, our, our favorites of last week.

268
00:15:43,980 --> 00:15:51,360
And, uh, you know what, how about, how about we'll start with, uh, with you, Richard, since you, uh, you're the co-host, you can get some prerogative.

269
00:15:51,540 --> 00:15:56,300
What, what, uh, and then, and then you can choose, we'll do, we'll do like a kindergarten style game.

270
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:57,080
I'll go last.

271
00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,200
And then, Richard, you can choose who to go next.

272
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:04,220
And then next, you see, uh, we'll kind of hold hands to the conversation as it were.

273
00:16:04,340 --> 00:16:15,420
But what, uh, what, what was, tell me, tell me two of your favorite sessions slash sort of like things, you know, sort of official agenda things that, uh, that you came across.

274
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:22,120
Yeah, I mean, I'm going to be interested in, uh, our, our guest take on, on main stage as well.

275
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,320
I did a handful of breakouts because I also got suckered into lots of customer chats and analyst chats.

276
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:35,740
But, you know, it was a good, I had a good breakout with, uh, the team at Wells Fargo talking about how they build product teams, which was, or platform teams, which was really educational to me hearing.

277
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,140
And what was interesting is he took half the time to talk.

278
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:39,920
It was Lance and Travis at Wells Fargo.

279
00:16:40,060 --> 00:16:44,120
And then he spent half an hour for questions, which always seems super risky because what if there's no questions?

280
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,640
Uh, they blew through like just question after question.

281
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:56,300
So you just had this room of people, even in a software dev oriented conference, just asking questions about hiring and kind of how big your team is.

282
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,280
And of course that team doesn't pull any punches.

283
00:16:58,420 --> 00:17:01,800
They were clear about, Hey, we, you know, we're getting updates every week or so.

284
00:17:01,860 --> 00:17:02,880
Here's how we roll them out.

285
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,920
This is what we do and how we deliver services.

286
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,440
And every Sunday we actually roll the whole environment, kind of do a repave every Sunday.

287
00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:11,940
And, you know, it was really educational for that team.

288
00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:13,380
So it was fun for me to hear that as well.

289
00:17:13,420 --> 00:17:15,500
I didn't know their story, that detail.

290
00:17:15,660 --> 00:17:17,360
So Wells Fargo one was good.

291
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:26,160
And then I heard, uh, again, it was good watching, I was TD Ameritrade talk about their, their gateway usage, but more importantly, how they decided to do more.

292
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:35,740
Kind of microservices stuff and their decision process that we considered a and B and C, and this is why we chose this and reminded me of my days doing the same thing in enterprise IT.

293
00:17:35,900 --> 00:17:42,320
And it was good to see the teams doing that with even obviously pretty advanced tech and ideas and finding a good answer.

294
00:17:42,460 --> 00:17:49,040
So those were good talks, but, you know, I want to hear, uh, Danielle, you were everywhere at the conference or at least on Twitter, you seem to be.

295
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,860
So, yeah, what were your, uh, let's go with breakouts and we'll go back to main stage at some point.

296
00:17:53,980 --> 00:17:58,200
But yeah, yeah, I think my, I mean, there were so many good breakouts.

297
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:01,760
There's so many good stories, but I really enjoyed Raytheon's breakout.

298
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:14,320
And I think, um, maybe because it was just so dramatic and such a good, uh, such a good illustration of how powerful Kubernetes and our platform are.

299
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:24,800
I mean, I know it sounds very markety to say that, but, um, basically they have this huge, um, distributed real-time system with, I think they said 6 million lines of code.

300
00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:26,460
So just this massive, massive system.

301
00:18:26,580 --> 00:18:29,360
They couldn't talk about what it actually is because it's very sensitive.

302
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:31,840
Like some of it's classified, some it's unclassified.

303
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,300
Um, they're running, um, they're running like everything you can imagine.

304
00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:38,060
They're running Windows on Linux.

305
00:18:38,060 --> 00:18:46,300
They're running, um, Java, C++, ADA, Fortran, Python, some commercial off the shelf stuff.

306
00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:48,940
And it's all running on bare metal.

307
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:57,980
And so what, what the session was about is this experiment they did to try and move some of this stuff off of bare metal onto public clouds.

308
00:18:57,980 --> 00:18:59,780
They were going to move it onto AWS Gov.

309
00:19:00,340 --> 00:19:07,100
Um, and it was just really, it's just this really hard, really complicated system that they have a really hard time building and deploying.

310
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:15,360
And they were actually able to move it, um, onto PKS and pillow application service.

311
00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:20,760
And they had to do some like funky stuff with some of their, um, cots.

312
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:28,880
They had to use wine on top of PKS, on top of Kubernetes, on top of AWS Gov for a few things.

313
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,240
Um, but in general, their, their experiment was a success and they're really excited about it.

314
00:19:33,460 --> 00:19:35,240
Um, they're really happy with it.

315
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:48,700
And one of the things they were talking about was just even to be able to do the experiment, if they had tried to build, um, you know, their own Kubernetes platform, they'd still be working on that piece of it, on building that part of it.

316
00:19:48,700 --> 00:20:02,220
And, you know, because Raytheon could just provision, uh, you know, an environment for them so quickly, like they already completed the experiment and they're able to like move forward with this crazy huge thing.

317
00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:04,960
So anyway, it was, it was, um, it was exciting.

318
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:07,100
It was an exciting breakout.

319
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:08,920
So they run like Ada.

320
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:10,920
Yeah.

321
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:16,300
They're running everything like, and, and they can't, they can't change a lot of it.

322
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,020
They can't rewrite it because most of it's classified.

323
00:20:20,020 --> 00:20:23,540
I mean, it's super duper sensitive stuff.

324
00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:25,060
Yeah.

325
00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:29,800
And they probably also, uh, you know, employ 20% of the Ada programmers left in the world.

326
00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:33,520
I think that's where a lot of them are in defense stuff.

327
00:20:34,220 --> 00:20:35,800
So, you know, maybe they're actually set.

328
00:20:36,260 --> 00:20:37,000
Everything's cool.

329
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,280
It's another, uh, older language.

330
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:40,760
Yeah, that does sound fun.

331
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:41,020
Yeah.

332
00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:42,080
Check those out.

333
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:43,880
Yeah.

334
00:20:43,980 --> 00:20:44,420
Brian.

335
00:20:45,460 --> 00:20:45,820
How about you?

336
00:20:46,820 --> 00:20:47,260
Yeah.

337
00:20:47,340 --> 00:20:50,220
So I had a, I mean, I can never only pick one, right.

338
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:51,740
But I got two, two sessions.

339
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:57,160
The one, um, I always like, you know, Daniel, like you said, I always liked the customer sessions.

340
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,060
I think the best.

341
00:20:58,060 --> 00:21:01,820
And, and the one that I attended that was, was pretty interesting was from Fidelity.

342
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:09,140
Uh, they were talking about, I mean, they were talking about scale and how they have 15,000

343
00:21:09,140 --> 00:21:14,400
technologists working across thousands of teams and they wanted to basically be able to prove

344
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,940
that they could deploy up to 10,000 times a day, which is like completely crazy for an enterprise

345
00:21:18,940 --> 00:21:19,700
besides Fidelity.

346
00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:24,800
Um, but they were talking about their road to get there and, and how they've gone through

347
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,480
various stages of automation, starting with sort of scripts and finding them not scaling

348
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:35,700
so easily and how they're now being more API first and API driven, um, with, with pipelines

349
00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:37,720
and, and sort of opinionated automation.

350
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,940
So, uh, that was quite a, quite a talk to see from a company like Fidelity doing that,

351
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:44,380
that level of technology.

352
00:21:44,380 --> 00:21:46,100
So that was, that was impressive.

353
00:21:47,380 --> 00:21:52,540
And then from a non-customer talk perspective, I really enjoyed, uh, James Zerkhart's talk,

354
00:21:52,540 --> 00:21:54,020
uh, from Pivotal.

355
00:21:54,140 --> 00:21:58,340
He, he, he gives a talk about the path to production as a service.

356
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,660
And, uh, it's, it's really compelling because to me, that's the secret sauce, right?

357
00:22:03,660 --> 00:22:06,360
Like the path, like how do we get our code into production?

358
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,440
There's a lot of, a lot of customers who I think maybe use the platform and have improved

359
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:16,080
their development cycles and maybe, you know, automating deployment to dev or test, but how

360
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:17,720
do you get into production quickly?

361
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:23,280
How do you roll in compliance and testing and security and all that stuff so that you can

362
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,420
automate the entire path all the way to your production?

363
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,780
And it's a pretty cool talk too, because he talks about sort of, he goes into the history

364
00:22:28,780 --> 00:22:35,260
of, you know, um, not technology, but like, you know, buildings and, and trains and it's

365
00:22:35,260 --> 00:22:35,820
a neat talk.

366
00:22:35,940 --> 00:22:37,680
So those are the two that I like the most.

367
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,980
Well, so I, I, you know, I didn't actually get to see that many talks.

368
00:22:42,980 --> 00:22:48,560
I of course saw mine cause I was giving it, so to speak, but, uh, I, you know, there's,

369
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,920
there's some, there's some recordings that, that we have available pretty quickly.

370
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,060
So I was able to, uh, watch some of them today.

371
00:22:54,060 --> 00:22:58,160
So there's one that I was looking forward to seeing, you know, I w I was doing some talk

372
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,100
selecting for some of them and there's, uh, there's a talk with, uh, on, on orange and

373
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:06,900
product management there are orange, as we would say.

374
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:14,000
And, uh, you know, it was, it was a good overview of essentially what a, uh, I mean, it didn't

375
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,720
really talk so much about like exactly the textbook definition of product management, but more

376
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,360
of what the, the tactical things they do, they do are.

377
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:25,340
And just, you know, one thing that, that stood out to me is, uh, uh, you know, I've been

378
00:23:25,340 --> 00:23:30,420
spending some time trying to figure out to explain, uh, what vision is as it relates to strategy.

379
00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:32,500
And more importantly, what, what good vision is.

380
00:23:32,820 --> 00:23:36,580
And I don't know, it's one of these terms that it seems like we should probably not call

381
00:23:36,580 --> 00:23:41,520
it vision anymore because it's kind of like, you know, all those motivational posters sort

382
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:47,360
of like, uh, in, in so much as it has been, there's been lots of bad vision statements

383
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:47,820
out there.

384
00:23:47,820 --> 00:23:53,320
It's kind of not handy to call something, uh, vision sort of like, you know, if you're

385
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,260
not careful, the word casserole, like someone might think casserole is going to result in

386
00:23:57,260 --> 00:24:00,860
a bad meal, but in fact, you can make it a fantastic meal if, uh, cooked well.

387
00:24:01,260 --> 00:24:02,960
So maybe call it a hot dish or something.

388
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,540
But anyways, uh, one of the things I think they were going over well is this concept of,

389
00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:11,940
uh, that I hadn't thought of as the concept of, uh, sort of a product manager as the arbiter

390
00:24:11,940 --> 00:24:14,180
of what aligns with vision.

391
00:24:14,540 --> 00:24:20,240
So as, as they're, you know, walking down the hallway in the morning and the CEO is like,

392
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,580
oh, there's this new, uh, you know, blockchain technology we should use.

393
00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:26,840
You should, you should think about making, putting that into a feature because I'm like

394
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:32,140
cool tech CEO person and I want to be, uh, you know, uh, using, taking advantage of all

395
00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:37,660
the new stuff or, you know, this never happens, uh, at a, at, at, you know, any company I've

396
00:24:37,660 --> 00:24:40,560
ever worked at, but you walk by a salesperson and they're like, you know, if you had this

397
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,060
one feature, we can close a $2 million deal tomorrow.

398
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,540
Uh, and you know, that, that, um, usually spoiler alert is not true.

399
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,560
Uh, other things always come up.

400
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,700
So it's not really worth your time spending time on that.

401
00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:57,300
And then, and then you go by the customer support person and they're like, oh, we have

402
00:24:57,300 --> 00:24:58,720
like 50 people calling in today.

403
00:24:58,720 --> 00:24:59,460
Cause there's a bug.

404
00:24:59,620 --> 00:25:00,680
You can fix that.

405
00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:03,460
And so, you know, the product manager is, is in a good position.

406
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,680
I, you know, you can pick the three out of those that probably are valuable to fix,

407
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,540
but the, the, the product manager is always sort of able to think about,

408
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,000
and then in good, good conditions, what, what features you might add, but what aligns with

409
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,320
the ultimate vision that you have because there was someone from orange there, she had, uh,

410
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,880
you know, firsthand experience of actually doing it on some orange related things.

411
00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:28,480
Uh, and then also there was, uh, you know, picking us another small part out of a talk.

412
00:25:28,580 --> 00:25:34,420
There was a, um, there was a talk, uh, from discover, uh, that also, I believe she was a

413
00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:37,000
product manager, but you know, it was towards the end of it.

414
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,920
There's also, this is another session where there was a lot of good, uh, questions at the

415
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:41,140
end.

416
00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:45,800
And I guess in addition, there being good questions, there were good answers, which is

417
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,680
always good for a Q and a session.

418
00:25:48,020 --> 00:25:53,380
Uh, but she, she kind of put together without explicitly saying it, an interesting example of

419
00:25:53,380 --> 00:26:00,260
using kind of low level metrics to basically judge how, uh, the transition to, uh, the transition

420
00:26:00,260 --> 00:26:04,600
of your culture to whatever, a more DevOps cloud, native agile, whatever you want to call

421
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,060
it way of doing things.

422
00:26:06,060 --> 00:26:13,080
And I forget the exactly the four or five metrics that, uh, that she was using.

423
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,540
I mean, they were like specific metrics, not just like the kind of pivotal style five S's,

424
00:26:17,540 --> 00:26:18,320
uh, thing.

425
00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:23,660
Um, but it was a good way of indicating like, as, as we get better at these metrics, you

426
00:26:23,660 --> 00:26:28,620
can kind of get a sense of how the, uh, the process and the organization is changing and

427
00:26:28,620 --> 00:26:32,540
improving, uh, which I often get asked about, how do you measure cultural change?

428
00:26:32,540 --> 00:26:38,100
And so far all people come up with, she didn't mention this is like using ENPS to measure,

429
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:39,180
uh, culture change.

430
00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:40,580
I haven't heard that many other things.

431
00:26:40,580 --> 00:26:46,960
I guess you could measure like churn and, uh, I don't know, other HR sort of things like

432
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,560
that, but those, those seem, uh, kind of complicated.

433
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,760
So those were some, uh, I think, I think if these links are available, I have to put links

434
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,200
to all of them, but they were good sessions.

435
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,980
How about up there on the, uh, the, uh, the main stage, the keynote, what, what, what did

436
00:27:01,980 --> 00:27:04,120
you, what did you think was interesting up there, Brian?

437
00:27:06,180 --> 00:27:08,080
Oh, so many good main stage talks.

438
00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:11,820
Uh, I think, I mean, I was trying to figure out, I was going through this.

439
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,960
Uh, I really liked watch how I strategically mentioned three or four before getting to

440
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:17,560
my favorite one.

441
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:23,660
Um, I, I really liked the, the home Depot, uh, talk that they, they, they flashed some stats

442
00:27:23,660 --> 00:27:26,840
about 91% of their software developed in-house and how they're doing that.

443
00:27:26,860 --> 00:27:27,780
So that was really impressive.

444
00:27:28,580 --> 00:27:31,200
I like, I liked, uh, you know, Joe Bita's talk.

445
00:27:31,260 --> 00:27:33,980
Anytime you can get Tron and Legos into the same conversation.

446
00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:34,920
I think that's pretty good.

447
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:35,960
That's a pretty good win.

448
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:41,700
Um, but I think Dick's Sporting Goods probably, uh, takes the win on this one.

449
00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:50,360
They took their production cloud, like offline on stage and didn't really freak out too much

450
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,520
about it, or at least didn't seem to, uh, and nothing, nothing went down.

451
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:53,700
Right.

452
00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:58,120
So they were encouraging the audience to hit their Dick's Sporting Goods website and do

453
00:27:58,120 --> 00:27:58,460
searches.

454
00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:02,080
And then they took that entire piece down and it just failed over to their other cloud.

455
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,300
It was super impressive.

456
00:28:03,380 --> 00:28:05,160
I've never seen anything like that on the main stage.

457
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,040
So I think they take, I think they, they take the cake on that one.

458
00:28:10,620 --> 00:28:10,980
Yeah.

459
00:28:11,020 --> 00:28:12,780
That was going to be my favorite, Brian.

460
00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:14,500
Sorry.

461
00:28:14,740 --> 00:28:19,840
I mean, it was, it's hard not to have that as your favorite.

462
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,020
It was so dramatic and my heart was racing.

463
00:28:23,140 --> 00:28:24,680
My palms were sweating watching it.

464
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,480
I knew it was going to work because of course it's going to work, but it's just, it was such

465
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,280
a, it was such a high risk moment.

466
00:28:30,940 --> 00:28:32,500
Um, I also really enjoyed.

467
00:28:34,340 --> 00:28:39,800
Yeah, yeah, there were, but that was like the most intense of the demos by far.

468
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,400
I thought they were cheating at first when they said they were going to take production.

469
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,180
I didn't even believe that it was.

470
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,040
And then they were like, no, we're totally serious about this.

471
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,040
We're just going to take production.

472
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,540
It was really cool.

473
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:48,960
Yeah.

474
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:49,740
And it worked.

475
00:28:50,020 --> 00:28:50,580
It worked.

476
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:56,240
The other great main stage talk was Leah McGowan-Hare from Salesforce.

477
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:02,560
She had, she just had a really positive message and talking about, um, enablement and empowerment

478
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:08,780
and bringing people, you know, lifting people up with you, like bringing people up with you.

479
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:17,680
I think she was talking, she gave us great example of, you know, asking the audience, you know, who has taught themselves a programming language.

480
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,380
And of course, you know, everyone's raising their hand except me.

481
00:29:20,860 --> 00:29:25,900
Um, and then she asked, you know, so who, who documented that?

482
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,240
Did you record yourself doing it?

483
00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:30,060
Did you document anywhere how you taught yourself that language?

484
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,540
And of course, far fewer people raised their hand.

485
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:42,780
And she just used that as this great example of, you know, you all could have documented how you did that and shared that with someone else to help them learn, you know, how to, how to learn that language as well.

486
00:29:42,780 --> 00:29:57,140
I just, I thought, um, she had a lot of just positive messages around, um, empowerment and also gratitude and, um, being thankful for the privilege that we all have being, you know, in seats at SpringOne.

487
00:29:57,300 --> 00:29:59,640
It was nice.

488
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,200
And then she also, I think she was, she was the only one at the conference who mentioned being a PeopleSoft programmer.

489
00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:07,380
So, so that, I remember that.

490
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:08,140
Yeah, that badge.

491
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:10,180
How about yourself?

492
00:30:10,180 --> 00:30:14,420
Yeah, you had my, uh, yeah, I mean, I didn't, I didn't name you.

493
00:30:14,540 --> 00:30:20,080
I didn't tag you specifically, Danielle, when you said it, but I mean, you're my favorite quote of the whole conference was when that big thing was about to happen.

494
00:30:20,140 --> 00:30:26,480
I look over at you and I'm about to throw up and it was just, I couldn't stop chuckling about that the entire day.

495
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,520
And just like, yeah, because that was the moment, like, this is all going to make us all look awful or this is going to look brilliant.

496
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,780
And they, of course, just were so nonchalant about the whole thing.

497
00:30:34,860 --> 00:30:35,960
Like, oh, we're now in Azure.

498
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,380
Like, what, what just happened?

499
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:38,760
So, I mean, that was wonderful.

500
00:30:38,860 --> 00:30:44,860
But, you know, I was, uh, since you all took the next one, I would think about the one that touched on scale.

501
00:30:45,060 --> 00:30:49,800
So I'll steal Brian's mechanism here and call out a couple of things.

502
00:30:49,820 --> 00:30:52,400
But there was something about that challenge of operating at scale, right?

503
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:59,180
Like JPMC talking about 53,000 people in technology and yet needing to figure out continuous delivery to make that happen.

504
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:00,300
I love those stories.

505
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,220
They're at Netflix scale, right?

506
00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:07,720
I mean, I thought Taylor's dog was awesome about the problems they were solving in-house that now they're solving through frameworks.

507
00:31:07,980 --> 00:31:13,220
And, you know, as I said, the way we now use our own technology is through Spring Cloud because it's easier, right?

508
00:31:13,220 --> 00:31:18,420
The projects they initiated turned into Spring Cloud, which now they just use in their projects instead of what they did before.

509
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,160
So, again, these kind of how do you operate at scale things.

510
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:27,840
But then the fact that, Daniel, your point on Leah's talk, it was about even scaling by bringing more people into tech.

511
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:34,440
And Home Depot did the same thing with their program of, like, hey, how are we training people in-store through, what was it, a 15-week boot camp for coding?

512
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,460
Like, that's so beautiful.

513
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:37,840
Like, that's wonderful stuff.

514
00:31:38,220 --> 00:31:39,160
Leah's point the same way.

515
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,780
How are we bringing more people in so we can actually scale all this crazy stuff?

516
00:31:42,820 --> 00:31:43,660
It's not just automation.

517
00:31:44,140 --> 00:31:44,700
It's people.

518
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,520
So, there's a lot of just stories on MainStage, I think, of, yes, you know, we're going to scale through automation.

519
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,780
Thank you, Spinnaker, and things like that.

520
00:31:51,780 --> 00:31:57,500
But we're also going to scale by having tons of smart, interesting people come into tech, and we can do that a lot of different ways.

521
00:31:57,580 --> 00:31:58,260
So, I don't know.

522
00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:03,340
I just kind of caught that thread through a number of parts of MainStage, and I just like that a lot.

523
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,320
Well, I always like the Home Depot talk.

524
00:32:07,740 --> 00:32:12,420
You know, we've had Tony on here several times to go over things like that.

525
00:32:12,660 --> 00:32:16,640
So, well, one, they talk a lot about themselves in a good way.

526
00:32:16,860 --> 00:32:20,140
Most companies aren't that detailed about what they're up to and doing.

527
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,020
So, they have a lot of information there.

528
00:32:23,100 --> 00:32:28,600
And then, two, just since I've talked with them so much over the years, it's good to get more information on what they're up to.

529
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:34,580
And, you know, I was realizing as they were talking, I think she said they had been doing things for about four years.

530
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:41,880
But, as always, having worked in strategy, I always remember the year of financial planning and strategy you do before something.

531
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:46,400
So, I was thinking, you know, they must have spent some time planning it out.

532
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,780
So, it's maybe more around five years or so that they've been kind of, as we would say, on this journey.

533
00:32:52,700 --> 00:33:01,120
And it occurred to me that, like, yeah, that's a lot of people that I talk with get frustrated about people and change or things are taking a while.

534
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:06,900
And, you know, they have great outcomes, like other people who are on the main stage and elsewhere.

535
00:33:06,900 --> 00:33:14,880
But, I think that one of the other takeaways that isn't always explicitly made is it just takes a long time, longer than you might think.

536
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:23,580
And so, you should just be patient and, you know, keep working at it for quite some time, unfortunately, depending on your patience.

537
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,060
But, it's a good reminder that if you're patient, things will pan out.

538
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:37,940
And, there was also a little session from General Motors, which equally, they, I don't know if you could say that they've been involved for five years or so on the same sort of journey.

539
00:33:37,940 --> 00:33:42,800
But, they've also been doing it for quite some time and are starting to see some results as well.

540
00:33:43,220 --> 00:33:49,280
And, I mean, that also reminds me, back to that Discover session, she doesn't, I'll have to talk with her to kind of, it'd be fun to get some more history.

541
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,360
But, she goes over, you know, we really did Agile in 2006 and kind of did that.

542
00:33:54,500 --> 00:34:00,780
And, then, even in 2016 and 2017, we were working with, you know, a cloud-native way of doing things.

543
00:34:01,420 --> 00:34:03,480
And, things kind of stalled out at some point.

544
00:34:03,540 --> 00:34:13,540
So, we had to change and we had this moment where we had to change the way we were doing things to make sure that we, I guess it's not growth, but that we still had, we were still improving each year.

545
00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:19,040
Which is a nice sort of impetus to look at that we've been slowing down improving.

546
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,540
So, therefore, we want to make sure we're always improving.

547
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:23,880
So, we should do something about it as well.

548
00:34:25,580 --> 00:34:25,940
Yeah.

549
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:27,700
You may be thinking of a couple things when you said that.

550
00:34:27,740 --> 00:34:31,120
I'm interested in a follow-up question for Danielle and Brian.

551
00:34:31,260 --> 00:34:40,420
But, two things that struck me when I was watching the main stage was, first, I can't think of too many tech conferences where the vendor leaves the customer by themself on the stage.

552
00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:41,060
Right?

553
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:44,440
Most tech conferences you do with, like, some weird, awkward little back-and-forth banter.

554
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:46,720
Here's a really specific question.

555
00:34:46,860 --> 00:34:47,960
How did you deploy our stuff?

556
00:34:48,020 --> 00:34:49,020
Why are we all so good-looking?

557
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:49,540
Like, whatever.

558
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,400
It's a really quick back-and-forth.

559
00:34:51,980 --> 00:34:57,360
But, like, we just leave them and say, like, tell your story, which is often super risky, I guess, because they could say anything.

560
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,460
Granted, we see some slides ahead of time, but we don't tell them what to say.

561
00:35:00,740 --> 00:35:05,360
So, I think that's always interesting that we like to put them up there for an extended period of time.

562
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:12,140
But then, secondarily, I was sitting next to someone else in customer marketing at the main stage when the TD Ameritrade talk was going.

563
00:35:12,220 --> 00:35:16,580
And it was so much fun for them to call out, like, their specific apps that they're doing.

564
00:35:16,660 --> 00:35:17,740
Like, this is what we've built.

565
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,820
Hey, you might recognize this as a customer.

566
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:25,520
Like, it really grounded it versus here's some generic transformation we're doing on back-office stuff that no one recognizes.

567
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,380
Like, no, no, if you're doing trades, by the way, this is something that we built in this method and whatever.

568
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,260
I think that humanized it a lot.

569
00:35:32,340 --> 00:35:42,040
But, I don't know, Danielle, when you were there and you write up so many of these customer stories, I mean, what is your vibe when it's just, like, hey, spotlights on a customer and when they're trying to tell a specific?

570
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,560
That feels unique, but I'm assuming that makes your job easier.

571
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,380
Yeah, it makes it a lot easier.

572
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:48,900
But it is unique.

573
00:35:49,020 --> 00:35:59,620
And I think, you know, to your point, to kind of what Coté was saying before, I think our customers are really, you know, genuine and honest and authentic in telling their transformation story.

574
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:19,920
And what I was hearing over and over again is one of the challenges is changing behaviors, changing culture, that people piece, because you can, yeah, you can buy the technology, but figuring out how to organize your business and, you know, implement processes and new ways of working is really hard.

575
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:30,480
And it involves a lot of people, you know, people need to believe in this vision, going back to the motivational poster.

576
00:36:31,220 --> 00:36:38,520
And so I think, you know, I think that's a challenge that a lot of the customers who are speaking at SpringOne were kind of highlighting.

577
00:36:39,060 --> 00:36:42,880
And a lot of folks were really proud of the progress that they've made.

578
00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:45,740
You know, you know, I think it was the Manulife breakout.

579
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:47,700
I went to the speaker.

580
00:36:48,060 --> 00:36:49,120
I forget who it was.

581
00:36:49,180 --> 00:36:51,380
I think Neil was his name.

582
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,800
He said something like, this type of transformation is a no-brainer, but it's really hard.

583
00:36:56,260 --> 00:37:07,880
And he said, you know, the cost, I think his phrasing was the biggest cost is culture, meaning I think that's what you're going to have to invest in at a really high level that a lot of people might not realize.

584
00:37:09,860 --> 00:37:10,220
Yeah.

585
00:37:10,460 --> 00:37:15,140
Brian, when you were watching main stage, any of that, I don't know, do those customer talks feel different?

586
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:16,980
You attend a good number of conferences as well.

587
00:37:17,060 --> 00:37:17,820
Is it any different here?

588
00:37:17,900 --> 00:37:20,680
Is it, you know, just a different flavor on the same thing everyone does?

589
00:37:21,580 --> 00:37:23,900
Yeah, I think the word that comes to my mind is sort of passion.

590
00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:36,620
It feels like the customers on main stage at SpringOne and the breakouts, frankly, not even just main stage, have like a real passion for not just the technology, but the process and the whole partnership that they get with Pivotal.

591
00:37:36,740 --> 00:37:45,800
So I feel like there's sort of a different, you know, they sort of activate a different level of engagement when they're that passionate about something.

592
00:37:45,860 --> 00:37:48,180
It's not just like, hey, let us show you what we did with the technology.

593
00:37:48,180 --> 00:37:50,300
It's like, hey, we totally buy into this.

594
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:51,300
We love this.

595
00:37:51,540 --> 00:37:53,300
We're transforming our whole business with this.

596
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:59,200
And so I think that really, really comes out in spades at an event like this.

597
00:38:02,060 --> 00:38:02,460
Nice.

598
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:11,400
So we can, I have a question for you, Coté, in a minute, but I wanted to ask first, now that the conference is over and we can be politically incorrect, did you like swagless?

599
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:18,480
Like, do you miss your conference t-shirt, Danielle, or were you happy to have saved the earth a little bit to not get a women's small or medium?

600
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:24,800
So I feel a little sheepish about it.

601
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,800
I am really happy that we went swagless because I think overall it was the right thing to do.

602
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:36,980
But I actually got myself a pivotal shirt from my marketing connections.

603
00:38:36,980 --> 00:38:43,920
I totally, I totally, yeah, I did that.

604
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,440
But you also, you also donated, right?

605
00:38:47,020 --> 00:38:53,420
But I also donated, I put my token into Black Girls Code and I felt really happy about that.

606
00:38:53,500 --> 00:39:00,120
And I, that $120,000 number that we donated to these awesome causes made me feel really good.

607
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:08,360
So it's the right thing to do, but I also got myself a new shirt because, well, and the thing is, my pivotal t-shirt has like a hole in it.

608
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:09,960
So I really needed a new one.

609
00:39:10,860 --> 00:39:13,280
But not everyone at the conference needed a new one.

610
00:39:13,380 --> 00:39:15,300
So I think it was, I think it all worked out.

611
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,580
Well, I don't think, I don't think it's, I don't think it's swag if it's your professional uniform that you need.

612
00:39:20,580 --> 00:39:30,900
I mean, swag, the definition of swag is basically at the end of the year, you have a box full of stuff that you take to, you donate to somewhere.

613
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,900
And then, and then you get like you, that you write down, you know, $50 worth of stuff and you give that to your tax accountant.

614
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:38,760
And they're like, this, this is nothing.

615
00:39:38,980 --> 00:39:40,300
This doesn't do anything.

616
00:39:41,060 --> 00:39:47,140
So, you know, or, or, or as I was joking with several people, it's those bouncy rubber balls that light up.

617
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,780
And, and then I go give those to my kids and those also go into a box.

618
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:53,120
Yeah.

619
00:39:53,320 --> 00:40:02,420
However, maybe if there are people who are giving away Legos, I've only been to one conference where they actually gave away a set of Legos, but that company is not doing so well at the moment.

620
00:40:02,580 --> 00:40:04,220
So maybe that would be a bad idea.

621
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,260
It should just be either really useful or completely irrelevant.

622
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,360
Like, yeah, Legos are like Chinese throwing stars.

623
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:16,360
Like I can't even take that on the plane, you know, or just like make it a ferret, like just something really awkward.

624
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:17,020
Yeah.

625
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,780
Just pick something really awkward or something super useful.

626
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,620
Not just in between like USB charger stuff.

627
00:40:23,020 --> 00:40:23,240
All right.

628
00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:26,500
So no Chinese throwing stars, possibly a ferret.

629
00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:30,920
Now we did, we did announce the, the SpringOne platform dates for, for next year.

630
00:40:30,980 --> 00:40:32,980
So the clock's ticking on checking on ferrets.

631
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:34,240
Yeah.

632
00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:40,580
I'm not, you, you think, you know, usually you can't give things to government employees, but do you think you can give a ferret to a government employee?

633
00:40:40,580 --> 00:40:42,120
That might be outside of the rules.

634
00:40:43,420 --> 00:40:43,820
Yeah.

635
00:40:43,820 --> 00:40:45,520
Can you imagine asking for clearance for that?

636
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,320
Like, Hey, I was just handed a ferret.

637
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:48,440
Can I take this home with me?

638
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,060
Is this considered a bribe or more work for me?

639
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:53,140
Yes.

640
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:54,040
It's more work.

641
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:56,180
Oh gosh.

642
00:40:57,140 --> 00:40:58,280
Brian, do you like Swagless?

643
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,400
That's really swinging the pendulum the other way.

644
00:41:01,460 --> 00:41:03,440
I'm going to win Swagless this year, next year ferret.

645
00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:04,760
That's a complete.

646
00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:06,300
Like a life response.

647
00:41:06,780 --> 00:41:07,180
Yeah.

648
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:08,080
Yeah, exactly.

649
00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:09,300
I like the Swagless.

650
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,020
I have way too many pivotal t-shirts as it turns out already.

651
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:13,920
Some with holes, some without holes.

652
00:41:14,260 --> 00:41:16,580
But I did not need anything else.

653
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:22,100
And I also have a problem of giving Swag to my children and having them, you know, throw things about the house.

654
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:23,680
So I was happy to donate.

655
00:41:23,860 --> 00:41:24,980
I sort of spread the wealth.

656
00:41:25,060 --> 00:41:28,480
I shared with all the four charities.

657
00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:30,340
So I thought that was a really cool idea.

658
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,240
It was actually when I first heard about it, I felt like, oh man.

659
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:39,580
But then it really grew on me because I think it's a really, I think every conference should do it, honestly.

660
00:41:41,180 --> 00:41:41,540
Yeah.

661
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:47,020
And what we didn't have, you know, what we laughed in Swag, we made up for in really delicious snacks.

662
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:53,420
Like there was a soft pretzel and the trail mix bar and the popsicles.

663
00:41:54,180 --> 00:41:56,060
Oh yeah, just the snacks in the hallways.

664
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:57,440
I was thinking of all the food, but you're right.

665
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,460
I think I still have a little bag of the trail mix that I'll have.

666
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:04,320
It's from the Austin Nuts Company.

667
00:42:04,660 --> 00:42:05,520
They've been around forever.

668
00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:08,580
That was good.

669
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:12,300
So Coté, you and I on Monday did the executive experience.

670
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:19,460
This was like, I don't know, 80 or so senior folks at different enterprises who came for a half day of schmoozing and knowledge.

671
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,280
Well, you're actually a really good guest speaker.

672
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,980
And you did a good panel interview with Jason from Dick's Sporting Goods.

673
00:42:24,980 --> 00:42:30,520
I just wanted to know, because Daniel, you said something that just made me think when we were talking about the culture change.

674
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:37,440
I thought when Lauren, our colleague, interviewed Michael Dell and Pat Gelsinger, there was some interesting stuff that came out of that.

675
00:42:37,540 --> 00:42:46,780
For me, actually, I learned a couple of things as they think about purposely or advising this audience to be purposely injecting more change into their work, to actually make them more comfortable with it.

676
00:42:46,780 --> 00:42:47,740
Because it's too easy.

677
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:53,520
I really love the visual that I think Pat mentioned of like, hey, you almost want to always be in the yellow.

678
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,660
If you almost think of this as a, I don't know, I'm blanking on the metaphor.

679
00:42:57,900 --> 00:42:59,400
But, you know, I don't want to go to red, right?

680
00:42:59,440 --> 00:42:59,880
The dial.

681
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:01,500
Because the red means I'm burning people out.

682
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:02,960
But I want to kind of be sitting in orange, yellow.

683
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:04,300
I mean, there's a little healthy tension.

684
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,840
I'm always a little bit on edge because it's going to pull out my best.

685
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,060
When I'm in green, I'm actually becoming complacent and losing.

686
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:16,980
And so many companies can purposely try to pull themselves into green, just like, hey, let's make sure everybody's happy, everybody's low stress.

687
00:43:17,180 --> 00:43:18,420
And that's how you fall behind.

688
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:29,320
And I thought, to your point even on culture, Danielle, this idea of, you know, leaders maybe changing that culture means adding a little healthy tension where you can see the outcome and you don't feel like I'm burning people out.

689
00:43:29,460 --> 00:43:31,320
But, like, yeah, let's change things.

690
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,160
Switching up the org every 18 months, people joke about it.

691
00:43:34,180 --> 00:43:37,180
But maybe that's a good thing because then change doesn't freak me out so much.

692
00:43:37,180 --> 00:43:42,200
So, I don't know, I learned something about that because, hey, did you pick up anything from the exec experience around culture?

693
00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:56,840
Yeah, well, like you're saying, I think the, there's other good comments about, like, you know, both of them being CEOs who are transforming or who are and have transformed organizations.

694
00:43:57,220 --> 00:43:59,520
It's interesting to hear what they said about maintaining that.

695
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:06,120
But to your point, I think it was Pat who said, you know, it's always good to have a crisis.

696
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:16,100
And even if, if there's, if it's kind of a minor crisis, it's sort of okay to make it into a big crisis, just to, like, motivate people to actually do things.

697
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:23,880
And there's probably, you know, that's a very, I don't know, American business way of saying it, to use the word crisis.

698
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,800
But it's more of just, like, motivation.

699
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,960
Like, having, I think, I think they used to call this in the 90s, a sense of urgency.

700
00:44:31,580 --> 00:44:34,480
You want to have, like, a sense of urgency for doing things.

701
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,540
And, I mean, crisis is fewer characters.

702
00:44:36,700 --> 00:44:43,540
And, therefore, by some sort of mid-1900s standard of English could be considered a better word to use.

703
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,020
But I think, I think I agree.

704
00:44:45,140 --> 00:44:50,340
I mean, that's, that's, that's a lot of what, maybe, maybe that's a more precise word than vision.

705
00:44:50,340 --> 00:44:54,520
I mean, vision, or part of it is, like, what is, what is the reason we're doing something?

706
00:44:54,700 --> 00:44:57,860
And having a crisis is a bit of a reason to do it as well.

707
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:02,880
Maybe that's also the reason why I find vision kind of fraught, is you've got your vision of, like, you know,

708
00:45:03,260 --> 00:45:12,960
I aspire to be a healthy person who raises educated children, which aspiration is a hard motivator versus, like, you know,

709
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:18,280
my secret aspiration is to watch those cool shows on Netflix and eat delicious food.

710
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:24,060
But you need some sort of, some sort of crisis to motivate you to achieve what you're aspiring to.

711
00:45:24,180 --> 00:45:28,680
Like, you could have the crisis of, like, you know, the teacher says you need to read to them more at home.

712
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,160
That's a good motivation to do things.

713
00:45:31,540 --> 00:45:35,940
That analogy wasn't quite as good as the candy corn teeth, which itself was not an analogy.

714
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:42,040
But I think, I think it was, it was, it was nice having those, those two CEOs up there essentially saying, like, you know,

715
00:45:42,060 --> 00:45:48,720
you need to make sure as, as a high level executive, there's only so many things that you can use to do to motivate people

716
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:51,720
and kind of putting that, that urgency into people and maintaining that.

717
00:45:51,780 --> 00:45:59,540
As you say, Richard, not letting your organization fall into the green and complacency, I think it's definitely a key thing that an executive has to do.

718
00:45:59,820 --> 00:46:05,560
Which I think is worth pointing out because I remember at some, one of the, one of the receptions,

719
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:07,920
they're not called cocktail hours anymore, right?

720
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,660
We have a little reception in the afternoon.

721
00:46:10,700 --> 00:46:12,660
And I was talking with someone at length.

722
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,800
It was actually one of the reasons why my voice was forced for quite some time because it was some good,

723
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,500
good honky-tonky music, but we were having some business conversations.

724
00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:25,480
So we had to yell at each other just to be heard, not yell, speak in an elevated voice.

725
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:31,720
And the main conversation we had was the one I come across too frequently, which is like, oh, we do all this.

726
00:46:31,900 --> 00:46:34,360
We have all these change that we're doing in these improvements.

727
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:38,600
And then we kind of expand out into the rest of the organization and they just don't care.

728
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,680
They have no sense of urgency for things.

729
00:46:41,020 --> 00:46:48,600
And, you know, usually I think unless it kind of comes from the top, it's hard to, I don't know, light a fire from below, as it were.

730
00:46:49,260 --> 00:46:55,520
I guess physically it's hard to light a fire from the top, but whatever, you know, you got to have the urgency of what's going on there.

731
00:46:55,520 --> 00:47:00,920
You'd have to have some sort of maybe a lit ball of wax that you drop from the top and then you can do that.

732
00:47:01,060 --> 00:47:03,160
But you can just blow fire downward.

733
00:47:04,380 --> 00:47:06,800
I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure fire goes up.

734
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,920
No, I think it was, no science, no math.

735
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:19,240
I think it was, I can't remember if it was Andrew Clay Schaefer or Leah on main stage who talked about change happening through need.

736
00:47:20,220 --> 00:47:20,540
Right.

737
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,700
As opposed to, yeah, I think it was Schaefer.

738
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:23,900
Yeah.

739
00:47:24,180 --> 00:47:28,660
So they both talked so well about change, but, you know, I think that plays right into what you're saying.

740
00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:29,840
That's that sense of urgency, right?

741
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,160
It's only going to happen if you need it.

742
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,340
Otherwise you can just rename it and say that you changed it.

743
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:35,840
Yeah.

744
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:40,460
And all those talks, I mean, Daniel, again, you sparked this by mentioning culture earlier.

745
00:47:40,540 --> 00:47:47,880
So it's your fault that I went down this tangent, but, you know, how did you hear anything else that felt like a specific trigger for like, yes, we need to work on culture.

746
00:47:47,940 --> 00:47:48,560
What's that mean?

747
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,740
Like what's the thing people are doing to actually impact culture?

748
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:58,700
There's a sense of urgency, adding change, anything else that you picked up this week around, you know, specifically impacting culture.

749
00:47:59,420 --> 00:48:05,000
Well, upskilling was a big topic in a lot of different sessions.

750
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:11,180
So, you know, you mentioned, Coté, you mentioned Home Depot, talked about their orange method.

751
00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:20,240
I think, you know, I think, you know, I think, you know, going back to Manulife, I think they said they have upskilled all of their engineers, they didn't hire anyone new.

752
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:34,020
And so I think just making sure that the people who are, you know, working on the software and the platform are feeling empowered and feeling like they're doing something meaningful.

753
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:40,380
And so I think that, you know, that enablement piece is a big part of culture and really important.

754
00:48:41,220 --> 00:48:53,420
You know, that reminds me of something that I think I came up a couple of times and it comes up every year is the idea of, I guess, not to beat around the bush of like insourcing and going, you know, taking staff.

755
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:59,200
And I'm hesitating to word it because that's kind of the point that I'm eventually getting to here.

756
00:48:59,340 --> 00:49:04,760
It's like making sure your staff are capable of doing things on their own rather than having outsourced them.

757
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:14,740
And it's, you know, I'll see if I remember this, but next year, it'd be nice to have at least one talk that's basically like, you know, if I was naming it, it would be like outsourcing.

758
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:15,620
What's the deal?

759
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:30,860
And it would be a fun, like a panel conversation to have like, and some outsourcing people on there and a customer as it were, but to kind of like go over like, so what is the nature of outsourcing and augmentation and other things like that?

760
00:49:30,860 --> 00:49:37,180
Because obviously, you know, at Pivotal, we do what you could technically call some outsourcing and services that we have.

761
00:49:37,260 --> 00:49:38,780
And we have partners who do that.

762
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,740
And then all of our large customers are involved in outsourcing.

763
00:49:42,740 --> 00:49:57,720
And I don't know, I've talked with like, some outsourcing people, like I was visiting with some Capgemini people here in Amsterdam, and you walk into their office, and it's basically, it's very similar to walking into a Pivotal Labs office, what they have set up.

764
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,000
And they do all sorts of interesting projects, and they help people out.

765
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,360
But I don't know if people think about that as like outsourcing.

766
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:13,440
So it would be fun to hear how that changes or what's going on with that beyond the usual things that people don't seem too happy about.

767
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:23,660
Because that, especially here in Europe, that's a huge change in like, I don't know, how a CEO, if not the CEO, thinks about how they do IT that seems to be going on.

768
00:50:23,940 --> 00:50:27,060
But it's not really spoken about very much.

769
00:50:28,220 --> 00:50:28,640
Yeah, good.

770
00:50:28,820 --> 00:50:29,280
I like that.

771
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:36,000
Well, I think as the final thing, you know me, I really only care about food, speaking about vision.

772
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:36,900
What would you do?

773
00:50:36,900 --> 00:50:41,680
So for lunches, there were food trucks, and also lots of beverages.

774
00:50:42,020 --> 00:50:47,840
Maybe that doesn't really matter so much if you don't live abroad, and there's not something called Dr. Pepper freely available.

775
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:56,340
But between all the food trucks, what was the highlight of a meal that y'all had at the event?

776
00:50:56,460 --> 00:50:57,420
What would you pick?

777
00:50:57,620 --> 00:51:00,160
What's the meal we should have next year for sure?

778
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,720
Even though it's in Seattle, but let's ignore that.

779
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,480
But what would be a good thing to have again?

780
00:51:05,980 --> 00:51:06,700
What do you think, Danielle?

781
00:51:06,780 --> 00:51:07,400
Hello, Brian.

782
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:09,180
Danielle, go ahead.

783
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,740
Yeah, I really enjoyed the catfish cowboy sandwich.

784
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:15,140
That was really good.

785
00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:18,640
It had some jalapenos in there, which I think you'd appreciate, Coté.

786
00:51:19,140 --> 00:51:21,340
And then, of course, all the hallway snacks.

787
00:51:21,500 --> 00:51:24,520
I mean, those were just kind of a meal in and of themselves.

788
00:51:24,780 --> 00:51:27,940
So I really was pounding those snacks.

789
00:51:28,460 --> 00:51:30,420
Now, Richard, you're up in Seattle.

790
00:51:30,540 --> 00:51:32,820
Are we going to be able to have a catfish po' boy from somewhere?

791
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:36,240
I mean, it's going to be a lot of salmon.

792
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:36,940
I've got to be honest.

793
00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:38,280
It's going to be a lot of salmon.

794
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:39,080
Salmon po' boy.

795
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:44,460
Maybe we could arrange some of that sweet and spicy salmon jerky.

796
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:45,800
I like that.

797
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:52,140
Or, you know, our friend Dennis, the sales rep who covers Southeast Asia,

798
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,560
he brought me two bags of the latest craze in Singapore,

799
00:51:56,140 --> 00:52:01,360
which is egg chips, which you eat these, and they taste like a boiled egg.

800
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:01,980
It's amazing.

801
00:52:02,340 --> 00:52:02,920
Like they're a chip.

802
00:52:03,220 --> 00:52:05,060
They taste like the egg yolk in a boiled egg.

803
00:52:05,060 --> 00:52:11,180
And then made by the same company, I think it's Irwin, is egg chips fish skin edition,

804
00:52:11,620 --> 00:52:14,860
which I don't know what your position on fish skin is, but they are delicious.

805
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,240
In fact, I'm going to go eat some after this.

806
00:52:17,300 --> 00:52:18,060
My mouth is watering.

807
00:52:18,220 --> 00:52:21,520
So you have to pardon any noises I make here.

808
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,040
Your breath profile must have really changed since you've moved to Netherlands.

809
00:52:26,300 --> 00:52:27,400
You're just eggs and fish.

810
00:52:28,260 --> 00:52:30,180
But basically, I mean, Singapore is like what?

811
00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:32,520
From Seattle, a four-hour flight, if I remember.

812
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,160
So you can fly some over, right?

813
00:52:36,300 --> 00:52:37,420
Yeah, I think it's like 14.

814
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:37,980
That's close.

815
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:39,240
That's right.

816
00:52:40,060 --> 00:52:44,260
That's my, you know, I always like to joke with the Australians and the New Zealanders

817
00:52:44,260 --> 00:52:48,080
and the people in Singapore about it's just, you know, it's just pretty close.

818
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:49,200
Not that far, right?

819
00:52:49,460 --> 00:52:49,620
Yeah.

820
00:52:49,700 --> 00:52:50,380
But really, yeah.

821
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:51,220
Quite far.

822
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:51,840
All right.

823
00:52:51,860 --> 00:52:52,660
How about yourself, Brian?

824
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:55,460
What was your food highlight, meal-wise?

825
00:52:55,940 --> 00:52:56,180
Yeah.

826
00:52:56,720 --> 00:53:01,660
Well, as far as the food trucks that were at the conference, those were all really good.

827
00:53:01,660 --> 00:53:06,880
I had some, like, Korean-flavored tacos one day, which was super good.

828
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,840
It was like a kind of spicy.

829
00:53:08,980 --> 00:53:10,460
It had some kimchi or something.

830
00:53:10,580 --> 00:53:11,780
It was really, really good.

831
00:53:12,420 --> 00:53:17,200
And then one of the days, we ventured off out of the conference center, and we went to

832
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,120
Gus's Fried Chicken, which was…

833
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:19,600
Oh, yeah.

834
00:53:19,860 --> 00:53:20,780
What's the story with that?

835
00:53:20,900 --> 00:53:21,300
Really.

836
00:53:22,020 --> 00:53:23,120
It was super good.

837
00:53:23,260 --> 00:53:26,140
It was, like, it's a little spicy, but super crispy.

838
00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:29,500
It's probably top three best fried chicken I've ever had.

839
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:31,100
That's delicious.

840
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:32,300
How about yourself, Richard?

841
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:35,580
I'm really hungry now.

842
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:37,700
Yeah, no, the food trucks were good.

843
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,760
I had that Korean taco thing, whatever.

844
00:53:40,860 --> 00:53:41,940
That was really good.

845
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:49,900
My worst food was I took the team out for pizza and drinks and some really aggressive playing

846
00:53:49,900 --> 00:53:52,160
of the game of cornhole, which was a lot of fun.

847
00:53:52,460 --> 00:53:56,580
But I was practicing a little bit of, you know, leaders eat last sort of thing.

848
00:53:56,660 --> 00:53:59,780
So everyone else ate the good pizza, and I just saw this, like, kind of lonely pizza,

849
00:53:59,860 --> 00:54:03,080
so I took a slice of it, which turned out to be some really gross, gluten-free thing

850
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,360
that left me hungrier when I was finished eating it.

851
00:54:05,460 --> 00:54:08,980
So I felt good that the rest of the team ate the good pizza while I ate this horrible,

852
00:54:09,180 --> 00:54:10,100
sad, lonely pizza.

853
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:12,520
But that really did leave a mark on me.

854
00:54:13,340 --> 00:54:14,860
You really are a good leader, Richard.

855
00:54:16,140 --> 00:54:16,500
Yeah.

856
00:54:16,620 --> 00:54:20,760
So I hope you know how much I care about you, that you ate the nice, fluffy pizza,

857
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,880
and I ate this cardboard with sauce on it.

858
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:28,380
Well, you know, I think, you know, I'm going to give you a stretch goal for next year.

859
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:33,620
You can start fiscal year, Richard, and that is you should write a little book that is

860
00:54:33,980 --> 00:54:35,180
Leaders Eat Leftovers.

861
00:54:35,460 --> 00:54:38,660
The Richard's Reader of Leadership.

862
00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:38,860
Yeah.

863
00:54:40,220 --> 00:54:40,620
Yeah.

864
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,800
Leaders Leave Hungrier would be the title of that book, right?

865
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:45,380
Leaders Eat Later.

866
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:51,900
Anyways, well, I think just to round it out, I had some little meatballs that had some sort

867
00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:52,960
of peanut sauce on them.

868
00:54:53,220 --> 00:54:54,840
Those were pretty delicious.

869
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:56,280
And here's a pro tip.

870
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:58,220
I go to a lot of conferences.

871
00:54:58,380 --> 00:54:59,740
Sometimes they give out small portions.

872
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:01,000
You can always get two.

873
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,840
So I got two bowls of the meatballs, and I dumped one in the other, and it was like,

874
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,820
you know, I was living high life right there.

875
00:55:07,340 --> 00:55:09,460
And we went back and had some more.

876
00:55:09,980 --> 00:55:11,140
But it was delicious stuff.

877
00:55:11,260 --> 00:55:14,000
Well, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations.

878
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:19,320
If you want to get the episodes that we've done in the past, we actually have a lot from

879
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,680
Springwind platform people who are kind of going over their talk.

880
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:28,200
But you can go to soundboard.com slash Pivotal Conversations without an underscore or anything,

881
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:29,160
just all one word.

882
00:55:29,300 --> 00:55:30,480
You can probably mix the case.

883
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:31,620
I haven't tested that out.

884
00:55:32,020 --> 00:55:33,700
And you can see those things.

885
00:55:33,780 --> 00:55:37,640
And we post the show notes usually every Thursday at pivotal.io slash podcast.

886
00:55:38,020 --> 00:55:40,000
And thanks to the two guests for being on.

887
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:41,060
That was fun.

888
00:55:41,580 --> 00:55:43,880
We'll have to have you all back on sometime.

889
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,240
And with that, we'll see everyone next time.

890
00:55:46,700 --> 00:55:47,160
Bye-bye.