1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,520
hey you've got kids right i do what do you uh what do you do when you sit down at your desk

2
00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:11,540
and you see a uh let's say a third eaten apple and you know that's from this morning are you just

3
00:00:11,540 --> 00:00:15,480
is it is it just like time to get rid of that apple or are you going to make yourself you know

4
00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:21,140
something out of that apple a snack or something oof i'm really bad about eating food after other

5
00:00:21,140 --> 00:00:25,720
people for some reason it kind of grosses me out so like even my kid will like take a bite of

6
00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:30,520
you can finish it so i'm probably not doing anything with that apple besides staring at it

7
00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:36,680
for a while and throwing it out yeah not gonna eat it i see no i i it's uh it's a mental block i can't

8
00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:41,180
get over it's it's you know maybe my dog will eat this apple i was gonna say it's too bad dogs don't

9
00:00:41,180 --> 00:00:45,540
eat things but i think uh well i mean they eat things eat fruits but maybe it'll uh it's kind

10
00:00:45,540 --> 00:00:52,320
of crunchy the dog might be confused although my my dog has a an odd habit like if you give the dog

11
00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:59,340
let's say a piece of bread that's maybe like two bites for a dog you know like a sandwich instead

12
00:00:59,340 --> 00:01:05,140
of eating it she'll go and bury it somewhere including the couch so i don't i don't really

13
00:01:05,140 --> 00:01:08,920
know what she thinks is going to happen in the future that she's going to want to go like things

14
00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,700
are going to get so bad she's going to want to go into the backyard and dig up a sandwich that's

15
00:01:13,700 --> 00:01:19,740
probably weeks old to eat uh but you know she's preparing i guess she's a survival that's good

16
00:01:19,740 --> 00:01:26,500
you know there's for the worst exactly well next is there any other weird food that the dog eats

17
00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:33,140
like my dog's like bananas i don't know about you any other no she's just i think pretty pretty normal

18
00:01:33,140 --> 00:01:38,100
i'm mostly just shocked that you know one time we were out of dog food and uh we made her a peanut

19
00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:42,840
butter sandwich because dogs like peanut butter right and uh that's when we discovered that she

20
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:51,080
just won't eat a sandwich she'll go bury it which is also a strange calculus i wonder if there's a

21
00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:56,960
equivalent in humans where you're like you know i have i'm hungry right now and i have this food in

22
00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:03,440
front of me but i'm gonna go bury it for later in case i'm hungry and there's not food so i'm not

23
00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,680
really sure what what that's about that's kind of like the way my grandparents would save money on

24
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:14,080
things instead of spending now on something nice they were uh saving it for a rainy day that seems

25
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,080
really responsible yeah that's good good depression era thinking back when you had to walk up hills

26
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:27,500
both way they would they would rearrange the hills midday yeah just flip around regular rube goldberg

27
00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:35,180
thing between between schools mcs your painting exactly well we're about a week away from uh spring

28
00:02:35,180 --> 00:02:41,880
one platform our annual conference in austin texas i think it's going to be great what what uh what do

29
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:46,840
you do in this last week when you're preparing for a conference like this now never mind the the work for

30
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:52,980
what do you do personally you know you uh making a list of things to pack checking it twice what's on

31
00:02:52,980 --> 00:02:57,740
your agenda i don't know how far how far do you pre-pack now you've got me curious i'm usually a

32
00:02:57,740 --> 00:03:03,480
same day packer but um no i mean we're you know buttoning up talks i have a talk i'm doing i actually

33
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,960
should probably finish it that would be good to get ready for that you and i are both presenting some

34
00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:13,100
things next week i think on monday so i gotta actually get that uh kind of buttoned up so yeah

35
00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:17,660
kind of prep week you know i'm debating whether i write a little recap or not of the talks i'm looking

36
00:03:17,660 --> 00:03:23,300
forward to and publishing out of my blog things like that oh yeah tighten it up now animals are

37
00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:28,880
ready to go there's there's a question for you you know uh in in in this content producing business

38
00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:35,480
that that we get our hand we're doing it right now as a matter of fact uh but do you do you like

39
00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:41,280
do preparation work for like recap posts like you know you're like all right i'm gonna write some uh

40
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,640
some text that i know i'm gonna need so that i can publish this quickly

41
00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:50,900
i don't do i don't i don't prepare like that i'm thinking if i want to highlight the talks i'm

42
00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:55,480
interested in attending versus the uh writing the obituary for the person who hasn't died yet sort

43
00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:01,660
of scenario that's right that's how that works i was always creeping out yeah yeah i guess it takes

44
00:04:01,660 --> 00:04:06,340
some imagination yeah you know i i don't i don't pack that far ahead of time you know the only thing

45
00:04:06,340 --> 00:04:12,100
i've packed ahead of time is is i i of course live in amsterdam but we have storage in austin so

46
00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:16,800
i was packing some things this weekend to take with me because my flight leaves like saturday morning

47
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,660
so i think i'll i think i'll bring some stuff that we don't use around here to put in storage

48
00:04:21,660 --> 00:04:26,800
uh you know a bunch of you know i've got those i've gotten rid of most t-shirts i don't want but

49
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:31,220
i have a few t-shirts that i don't want to get rid of that i don't wear that are just sentimental

50
00:04:31,220 --> 00:04:38,040
and then uh i got a bunch of uh i got all my my boots my cowboy boots which sadly they have

51
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,180
holes in them because they're so old and that doesn't work around here because it's wet all the

52
00:04:42,180 --> 00:04:47,560
time so you know you can't have holes in your shoes it's kind of charming if you're in a dry place where

53
00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,840
you got you know like oh look at those you've got tango and cash boots and you know or is tango and

54
00:04:52,840 --> 00:04:58,440
cash the one with don johnson no that's that's i think you're right not turner and hooch make sure

55
00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:03,440
you got your your combos yeah there's some i mean to give a spoiler there's some you know there's some

56
00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,740
where i think don some movie where don johnson has some boots with duct tape on it and they're a joke

57
00:05:07,740 --> 00:05:13,300
and then it ends up playing a pivotal part in a literal cliffhanger at the end of the uh the movie

58
00:05:13,300 --> 00:05:18,280
as i recall you just you just wear wooden shoes now right you're exactly yeah because they float

59
00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:27,100
how long do you uh do you think your kids like long after you're 90 and then are going to go

60
00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:30,960
through and just find a bunch of t-shirts you could never get rid of because i feel feel that like i just

61
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,800
moved i just moved probably a dozen t-shirts i'll never wear again but i just have a sentimental

62
00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,800
attachment to yeah i think i think they'll they'll find some old t-shirts of mine but and and a bunch

63
00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:47,960
of like usb devices of just like you know this seemed like a really cool usb device you you you you plug it

64
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:54,520
in and it lights up isn't that awesome yeah why does dad have so many hard drives like it's just like

65
00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,640
i couldn't get rid of them there was a there was a good let's say five to ten year period where i

66
00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,680
collected usb thumb drives it's just fun because when those first came out in the mid-2000s i was

67
00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:09,820
like you know what a time to be alive look at this it's a little hard drive on this thing here and uh

68
00:06:09,820 --> 00:06:14,300
i forget it might have been when we were moving or a year before that i had this shoe box and i was

69
00:06:14,300 --> 00:06:18,860
like all right i just gotta i gotta get rid of these so i i laboriously went through and copied all the

70
00:06:18,860 --> 00:06:24,620
files off of them into a little dropbox thing and then got rid of them and then and then sure enough

71
00:06:24,620 --> 00:06:30,700
i'm holding one in my hand right now so i still have them that follow me around everywhere although

72
00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:35,560
listen i should take a picture this one's super cool it's this little dell one that i saw at a

73
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,380
dell world once so of course i grabbed like five of them and it's like super thin and it's got this

74
00:06:40,380 --> 00:06:45,660
metal sleeve that folds over and then it says dell on it so i mean of course you want that right

75
00:06:45,660 --> 00:06:51,180
isn't that nice and of course this year's SpringOne is swagless because we we care about not just uh

76
00:06:51,180 --> 00:06:56,460
filling bags with goodies but filling heads with knowledge so don't get any uh you don't get any

77
00:06:56,460 --> 00:07:02,860
tchotchkes my uh my 60 year old children who are emptying my collection they'll appreciate they'll look

78
00:07:02,860 --> 00:07:09,680
back on this year 2019 is the year that dad didn't have a usb drive that was branded no it's gonna be

79
00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:14,480
like you know archaeologists or uh with the people going through like the strata in the rock and why is

80
00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:20,280
something missing in this era that's gonna bring one platform 2019 such a garbage on both sides but

81
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:25,120
this one i don't know it was a fire something you can tell this is when when uh conferences stopped

82
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,880
having swag i was at devops days london last week and that was a theme they encouraged us to be that

83
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:35,900
way so so we we the pivotal people rolled up with minimal swag meanwhile other people seem to have not

84
00:07:35,900 --> 00:07:41,240
gotten the memo which is which is a bummer but yeah what are you gonna do first first mover moral

85
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,860
advantage or something right well i was thinking we should go over a few like just little uh spring

86
00:07:46,860 --> 00:07:50,540
one platform things and then also we haven't talked in a while so we can kind of catch up on things

87
00:07:50,540 --> 00:07:56,120
we've been doing but as always we got a few news items going going uh going on here what what's what's

88
00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:01,980
been happening that catches your eye yeah it was a few things i thought highlight that uh our audience

89
00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:07,700
might care about so we think about initializers the spring initializer obviously uh one of the more

90
00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:13,460
popular places on the internet for developers is there's a million and a half or so projects created

91
00:08:13,460 --> 00:08:17,700
there per month for spring boot developers they go there they pick all their options they click generate

92
00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:21,960
gives them a download now their project's ready to go there's been some nice updates to that now it's

93
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,080
really easy to not have to download a project if you just want to browse what it would look like

94
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,120
because you want to steal it for a project you already have and you can even share now so you can get a

95
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,400
link that you could share with another developer put it on a wiki somewhere that says hey click this link to

96
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:41,280
bootstrap this whole web project now so that's pretty cool and then our team spun up a steel toe

97
00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:47,580
initializer for.net dev so if you go to start.steeltoe.io you can actually bootstrap a .net project which is

98
00:08:47,580 --> 00:08:52,440
pretty neat as well next time i was thinking about it was .net core 3.0 ship last week so this is the

99
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:58,280
next big version of .net so you get new language stuff if you're doing json support which if you're

100
00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,360
doing web apps you're probably doing that that's great some more containerization support for docker

101
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,800
containers more friendly there and if you like building windows forms and windows presentation

102
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:11,800
foundation you are a happy camper because now you can do that with .net core now is that is that the

103
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:16,380
is that the like gooey way of doing things it is i think that's the first way i was really building

104
00:09:16,380 --> 00:09:20,760
stuff when .net came out was like hey here's visual basic and i can drag and drop a button i can do all

105
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:26,320
this stuff so that was left out of .net core for these last few years and it was like hey if you want to

106
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,880
build windows forms you use .net framework on windows but now you can use .net core so that

107
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:36,560
you don't have to rely on framework anymore for that all right now now would you say are you do you

108
00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:42,420
reminisce about the gooey days are you glad those are uh sort of over i guess you have mobile things

109
00:09:42,420 --> 00:09:46,800
but like i don't know what's what's your i never really did gooey programming so i don't know what

110
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:52,080
the feels are around it there was something gratifying about seeing the work i mean i don't know

111
00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,080
building a restful web services and i don't think give you that same kick as like here's a button i

112
00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,160
just like that loads of you know loads data or puts an image up there so there was something about

113
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:05,680
instant gratification of front-end design obviously we now satisfy with web design so it's not like

114
00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:10,080
we're all building back-end components all the time yeah but no i mean look i don't know what's on your

115
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:15,600
desktop i do have a the dedicated slack app i do have you know dedicated trello app or i have dedicated

116
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,160
apps for things that are also web versions because sometimes it's nice to have a desktop version

117
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,960
so like not like desktop development's dead although clearly most of our work's in the browser now

118
00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,200
man that's true there's plenty of desktop and then and then really the uh the stuff you do on your

119
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:35,840
phone that that usually is a gooey it seems like or at least it might as well be huh yeah so meanwhile

120
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,960
what's what's the uh the lambda networking change what's going on there yeah i mean it's self-promotional

121
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:46,400
since i wrote it up for info queue but it was also good news uh which was uh so i mean up until now

122
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:51,040
if you were building lambda functions in amazon you know these serverless functions and you were

123
00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:55,360
using a virtual private cloud which is how most enterprises are adopting public cloud they use

124
00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:00,880
like perimeter security they wrap up in a private network their all their stuff and it's not internet

125
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:07,120
accessible you get a vpn and whatever but lambda always sits outside of that so that vpn or that vpc kind

126
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:12,720
of had to bridge over to your vpc it would create a new network connection for each function and if it's a cold

127
00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,080
function it hasn't been warmed up it would have to instantiate a network connection meaning

128
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,680
when you have lambda functions talking to let's say your database your line of business app in your vpc

129
00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:25,680
you can have this really longer cold start and so it's kind of prohibitive like all right i'm not

130
00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:30,960
going to use lambda functions with my own systems it's just it's kind of painful i'll just use it with

131
00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,480
other stuff that's on the internet and that's fine but what they made a change of is they kind

132
00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,240
of create a persistent connection now when you instantiate your function in the first place

133
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,560
and so you don't pay that tax anymore so if i'm trying to do serverless stuff on line of business

134
00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:47,760
systems in my private network i'm really only incurring the cold start time of actually booting

135
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,720
up the function not doing all that network bridging stuff which is pretty cool yeah has serverless stuff

136
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:57,360
gotten uh sophisticated enough yet where they charge a different tier for fast versus slow

137
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,520
no although i mean the other thing i linked to in the same kind of sentence that i put in our show

138
00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:08,400
notes was uh you know another analysis that blew up last week of like hey it cost me a lot more to

139
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,800
do serverless which is counterintuitive because the you know the message now is like hey this is the

140
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:18,320
cheaper way to do stuff get with it but that for certain workloads and certain kind of usage profiles

141
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,040
you still have to stitch together a lot of pieces with their own micro billing components gateways and

142
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:28,000
storage and functions and this and that so sometimes it's cheaper just to run a vm sometimes it's

143
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:33,200
cheaper to use a pad sometimes it's that reminder that there's probably not one abstraction to rule

144
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,360
them all like it probably doesn't make sense to say it's all going to be serverless it's all going to

145
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:42,000
be this all going to be that you know there's still we're still not a place where i think any normal

146
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,800
company normal person is going to try to fit everything in that model yeah wasn't there and i suppose

147
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:53,520
isn't there there was some kind of like cloud compute thing that like you like you never really knew when

148
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,320
it would execute and therefore it was like cheaper or you were like bidding on things or you kind of

149
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:04,000
like use leftover compute space or something right yeah there was that that kind of model for spot

150
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,440
instances there you go yeah most clouds do that where you can yeah you'd almost bid on it and hey once

151
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,840
it goes above this price they'll just shut it down yeah and so if i'm doing like crazy map reduce

152
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,880
stuff or i'm doing just kind of bulk computing and i can lose nodes it's fine but again i think if you

153
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:23,840
walk into most enterprises going hey your compute may or may not be online at any given time like

154
00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,160
that's not going to run a majority of your stuff it's going to be certain types of jobs yeah that

155
00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:33,680
that's that's that's a uh that's a cloud service in need of some marketing if that's uh the the way

156
00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:39,280
they pitch it this this this is an unreliable service that's affordable but that might describe

157
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:47,280
most enterprise it uh in in many cases anyways that's right yeah so you know we're gonna and we'll

158
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,040
cover some more serverless stuff at SpringOne next week as well so again i'm still bullish on the

159
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,680
model frankly i prefer it to a lot of other ones but you know i try and also be a realist especially

160
00:13:55,680 --> 00:14:00,400
when you and i talk to a lot of large companies and a lot of people who listen to this podcast who

161
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,560
look at their line of business systems look at what they already have running look at the fact they're

162
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:10,400
spending maybe 10 to 20 a year of their budget on innovation type work and the idea of saying like hey

163
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:15,680
everything's going to be serverless is like maybe in 20 years because by the time i would actually change all my

164
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:22,240
apps or the the time that sap or siebel would work nicely with functions like we got a ways to go yeah

165
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,920
i was talking with someone who works in government it last week and they were uh i i don't follow

166
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:34,000
serverless stuff as close as i don't know if it's i should i don't follow it that closely but uh i was

167
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,800
asking him like what would you use this stuff for and he was he was saying well we use a lot of uh

168
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:45,200
just like microsoft office and just a lot of excel and word docs and there might be a point where like

169
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:51,520
it makes sense to like call out to serverless stuff to do things and right and with the point of allowing

170
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:57,920
people to keep using excel as a ui instead of shifting them to some other things and then you could uh

171
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:04,480
link in some i don't know more programmed services on the back end rather than just like macros and

172
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:10,320
weird calls to things which i don't know that seems interesting maybe someone will do that kind of

173
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:16,720
back to gooey's as we were talking about earlier that's right so then also also in uh cloud world

174
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:23,600
it looks like microsoft uh launched a i always forget what siem stands for but i wanted you to say it

175
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:29,600
first i think it's even pronounced sim but i sometimes say it wrong myself but it's a uh what does it stand

176
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,640
for it stands for security information and event management so kind of suck in a bunch of information

177
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,600
do things you know gather all this data you analyze it you look for anomalies you try to figure out if

178
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,920
there's a security problem and that's been a mature space for a while i just thought this was interesting

179
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:49,360
because now microsoft entering this with their new ga service azure sentinel which sounds uh i guess

180
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:56,000
scary that it hooks into all the usual azurey stuff so office 365 and cloud stuff so it's gonna be

181
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,720
pretty compelling it's the usual cloud kind of pay-per-use sort of thing might disrupt kind of

182
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,760
the more slow-moving on-prem sort of systems or ones that don't have sophisticated machine learning

183
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:11,440
that microsoft has advantages in so anyway it's an interesting entry into the market but public cloud

184
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,920
providers keep doing this right where they offer really useful stuff that messes around with the

185
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:24,000
rest of the market this feels like the next one yeah it'll be uh you know i remember talking with uh uh

186
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,880
as we used to call it systems management vendor that structurally deals with the same thing as a uh

187
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,560
sim right like just a whole bunch of information that's always coming at you that you have to

188
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:39,760
analyze and make some conclusion about so someone can take an action uh right or go to lunch uh and uh

189
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,320
you know the thing that they always bump up against and when i used to work on this was just like

190
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:50,000
the sheer amount of data that you have to deal with and analyze and uh with sort of on-premise

191
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,520
traditional things you just kind of run out of compute that's affordable and so it's it's always

192
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,840
interesting to see if you centralize it in a cloud somewhere what you do with that especially when it

193
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:05,040
comes to applying machine learning things because i get the i get the feeling that a lot of like uh

194
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:10,400
machine learning or ai ops or whatever like it just seems like it's going to hit some wall if it's all

195
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:16,560
done on premise that you wouldn't have uh hosted somewhere which you're i mean i think you're

196
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,320
right on the compute side definitely because you start just starving for compute and then the storage

197
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:25,280
right is when do i choose to throw out stuff do i just have to start summarizing data because i can't

198
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:31,120
store all the raw data that now the tricky thing is every public cloud makes it so easy to keep data

199
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:36,000
forever and copy it everywhere but that's not free so at the same time like it's amazing but i don't

200
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:42,080
know if most most folks are budgeting for never-ending infinite storage yeah it's like that shoebox full

201
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:48,560
of usb drives it seems free but it takes up space and time at least at least in your head yeah yeah

202
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,200
there's always some delightful things to discover on those though from you know years ago oh yeah

203
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:58,400
goodness gracious i'm finding resumes from like 2001 or here's like this this project i thought was super

204
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:05,600
important i forgot about or all those great things all the usb drives well as mentioned we've got a

205
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,480
we've got SpringOne platform coming up next week october 7th and 10th probably if you're listening to

206
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:16,320
this you've already registered or you're not going to or it's already happening but that's fine there's a

207
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:21,680
if you haven't registered there's there's a code you can use for 200 off but you know if there's time

208
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:26,720
you should definitely come to it it's going to be it's going to be in austin i think uh i was supposed

209
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:32,480
to write up a guide for my european friends about going to austin but i didn't however there were

210
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,920
several emails sent about recommendations of places to go and i think we've we've answered those and uh

211
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:43,440
let's see we got i i i know you you you've helped on things i've helped curate talks for the uh the

212
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:49,040
devops track and the leadership track and a little not really on the kubernetes track but i looked at

213
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,880
it i think i was just a secondary concern there and we got uh some analysts come in workshops there's a

214
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:59,920
little executive event that we're doing there's even if you're if you're from uh amia we've got

215
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:06,640
a happy hour you can come to wow and and be happy i mean you glossed over just there but this is the

216
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,920
first year we've done a leadership track right i think so i don't yeah yeah i mean i think i we we've

217
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:17,760
had similar things but like specifically calling out like this is uh not necessarily about technology

218
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:24,320
stuff or case studies but here's some uh here's some thought technologies uh to apply to leadership

219
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:29,680
things so when i when i was looking through things i was trying to get you know a lot of them are from uh

220
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:35,040
from uh customers if you will or people have done things but i've tried to make sure we have some talks

221
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:40,640
that go over uh not only how to do the the usual change management but for example there's a couple

222
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:47,680
of product management and uh design based ones where more so sad well not more so but like partly

223
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:53,360
satisfying my curiosity of like what does it mean to do leadership with product management in an

224
00:19:53,360 --> 00:20:00,560
enterprise con context and i think um for you know actually if you're listening to these podcasts in

225
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:08,240
order it's uh the one maybe right before this i was talking uh with uh alexandra about this topic

226
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:13,760
the talk she's going to be giving and uh you know i think there's a lot of product management talk when

227
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:19,600
it comes to a software vendors doing it but i don't hear that much about uh doing it in the enterprise

228
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:26,480
as it were and then there's a panel on design that has someone from usaa on it and a couple of other

229
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:33,280
design people that will be interesting to see how you sort of uh lead design uh if you will but i was

230
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:41,040
i was looking through uh all of the talks uh earlier and and i have to say uh i'm i'm gonna i'm gonna

231
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,840
pick one that just for for totally sentimental reasons i'm very interested in on thursday

232
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:52,720
at 12 30 there's one called drive-in meets digital modernizing a classic customer experience from our

233
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:58,480
friends at sonic where they uh you know i love i love a sonic burger that reminds me of one of my

234
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:04,960
favorite david sedaris things where he's he's in paris and on a subway and he's making fun of of some

235
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:11,200
some young americans there and they're like boy i sure could use a sonic burger right now and i think i

236
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:17,600
think that expresses a sentiment many of us have at least once a week you could just use a sonic burger and

237
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:23,120
a uh and a slushy that would be great i think i'm gonna go get one of those now when yeah you really

238
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,480
i know you've messed me up now for the morning i'm hungry yeah uh but no that that that was a good

239
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,320
looking one it's funny how many of these you almost want to attend because you're actually familiar with

240
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,880
the company like oh i want to hear how this company that i depend on does stuff yeah it's interesting

241
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:42,320
we actually have so many customers and it just enterprises presenting stuff like wow i actually need

242
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,560
them to be good at this because if comcast stinks at technology my kids yell at me when i can't get

243
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,960
an on-demand movie like i need them to be good at this or the health care companies or dicks down the

244
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:56,320
corner from me right your insurance provider it's all interesting stuff that even to your point like

245
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,840
there's a sentimental attachment to sonic like i'll go hear their talk i don't even care what they're

246
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,080
talking about like i just want to hear what they talk about yeah yeah it would be like you know

247
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:09,440
every now and then uh air france klm has a talk and i fly on i fly on klm all the time so i'm

248
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:15,680
very very interested to see how they're improving things around there it's uh the power of a familiar

249
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,360
brand is is is really nice how about you what are you what are you looking forward to

250
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,800
yeah i mean always you know again i think that leadership stuff's interesting because you don't

251
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:31,040
i don't know i've we've i've done what this is my third or fourth SpringOne and again my first

252
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,520
year i had didn't know java from a hole in the head for the most part and i've learned spring over

253
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,600
the last few years and things like that but this really has turned into a conference if you have

254
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:44,080
no interest in java you would actually really still enjoy this conference because there's a lot of as you

255
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:49,520
say leadership stuff kubernetes stuff event-driven architecture stuff dot net stuff tons of things

256
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:55,440
there so it's really an interesting all-up tech conference at this point so you know i'm looking

257
00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:00,320
at a couple that are or transformation-y and specifically like how you get over the hump

258
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,160
since again that continues to come up in a lot of talks that i have with people that

259
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,080
yep sounds good for incubation again how do i keep scaling this

260
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,800
the reactive stuff's taking a good leap forward over the last year last year at SpringOne we

261
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:17,760
announced a lot of reactive things like hey we talked about our socket and we talked about r2dbc

262
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,880
which is not a robot on star wars and a number of other reactive things but all that stuff's matured

263
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,440
now so we've actually had you know just today i think spring framework five two shipped with

264
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:34,720
new rsocket support for reactive messaging kind of event messaging between components the the stuff we've

265
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:40,080
been doing with reactive database stuff has matured all the web flux stuff so i just want to learn more

266
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,480
there try to get a little more understanding of why i care about that and then finally some of the

267
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,840
building platform teams helping the sdlc that stuff again intrigues me because i'm always fascinated how

268
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:55,600
big companies figure out how to use tech at the right time how to speed up developers all that stuff we take

269
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,760
for granted when i just read hacker news every day so looking forward to those kind of talks and then

270
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:05,280
the main stage you know uh dormain draywitz the host of the podcast in the alternate weeks

271
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,000
is running the main stage which means she's going to do tremendously better than i did the last two

272
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,800
years so i'm looking forward to that uh but she's put together an awesome lineup you know i've seen

273
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,600
some previews of what we're going to be talking about and sharing and i don't know to me i don't know

274
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,800
about you Coté but for me clearly there's a transaction looming here with vmware and i think

275
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,440
there's an interesting chance to maybe bookend pivotal at this conference like what has our

276
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,480
impact been what's you know take a step back sure what have we contributed to this industry for the

277
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,720
last six years what have we moved forward did we transform how the world built software i don't

278
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,840
know some of it we did and maybe taking a step back i think is kind of a cool moment here yeah well i

279
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:49,840
think i think structurally like the the mixture of uh business stuff and nerd stuff it kind of shows like

280
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:56,000
the uh the way things uh have been affected by by pivotal work which is nice that you have those two

281
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:01,920
things together now now more importantly you know previous year like last year there was there was some

282
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:07,120
costuming going on some little quick changes of the mcs is there i don't want anything revealed but do you

283
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:12,320
think there might be some uh costume changes this year that could occur gosh i don't know if i'm rooting for

284
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,720
that this year that was pretty pretty wild last year uh yeah i don't know if it's gonna be like the

285
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,280
what it's gonna be gonna get any horse heads or anybody can be dressed up in anything fancy i

286
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:27,040
haven't seen any sneak peeks though of crazy costume changes no no acting like a sheriff there that would

287
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,320
be funny if there was a classic two-person horse that came walking up that's uh i mean again i would

288
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:37,280
find it better if no one acknowledged it like just walk out as the horse and get undressed and

289
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,960
just caught off like this all right that was a horse yeah cool

290
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:51,600
well uh well also since last time we talked you did a uh you did a webinar with uh nicole from uh the

291
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:58,560
devops what does dora stand for i always forget devops research a yeah yeah there's there's there's

292
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,040
a bunch of things in there don't put me on the spot but uh but how did i i have to admit i haven't

293
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:08,960
watched that webinar yet but uh how did it go what what what was the interesting sort of like uh

294
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:15,280
insight or idea that came out of that webinar that you didn't have beforehand yeah i mean the state

295
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:21,360
of devops report that uh nicole does and she had some other folks again helping out this year

296
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,320
putting this together i think everyone looks forward to this every year i know i do just

297
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:30,720
because it's a another state of kind of grounded information about these practices it's not just

298
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:37,280
feelings it's not just well i saw this on a project once this is a you know obviously rigorous method

299
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:42,160
for figuring out what are the outcomes that come from some of these practices so you know it's always

300
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,400
a pleasure to get to do with this with uh dr forzer and this is the second straight year we've done

301
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:51,120
it together and so you know there's some good movement in sort of elite

302
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:54,000
performance and this and that but the one thing that stood out for me and you should watch the

303
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:59,440
webinar i think it was our fifth most popular one of the year but she did some analysis as well and

304
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,720
figuring out what are the sort of practices that actually positively and negatively kind of improve

305
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:10,560
org performance like if you start thinking about all right so continuous delivery kind of what feeds

306
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,680
into that what is actually a predictor of success there is it again things like monitoring loosely

307
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,800
coupled architectures trunk-based development deployment automation yes so heavyweight change

308
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:26,560
process actually shows you know statistically to have a negative impact on software delivery performance

309
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,840
or so it was actually i think starting again try to tie this stuff together not just hey this is why we

310
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:37,200
should do source control management this way this is why we should pay down technical debt this is

311
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,400
and if i'm an enterprise it and i've always felt like i'm fighting upstream because no one believes my

312
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:47,760
crazy you know software suggestions to be able to start to have this sort of information that says yes

313
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:53,200
look it's negatively correlated to do x and y here's the data behind it here's the sort of research

314
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,600
behind it it would just seem like this is a relief to a lot of people who are trying to champion

315
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,480
change and feeling like they're just fighting the inertia of just the way we've always done it

316
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:08,960
yeah yeah you know like tech that's always an interesting thing it's uh it's it's it's sort

317
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:16,320
of like it's a good test of if people believe the developers right in in the sense of like you know

318
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:21,360
it's common sense to uh architects and developers that like the the more the more corners you cut and

319
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:26,400
things you don't update and things like that uh it's going to slow you down in the future and you'll

320
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,040
tell people that and and i don't know if it's that they don't believe it or they don't have time to

321
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,880
think about it and then like a few years later it's like yeah we can't really change anything

322
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,000
effectively or quickly because i told you that two years ago but you didn't believe it whereas i

323
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:46,480
would imagine in like i don't know bridge building or what's something even less important than bridge

324
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:54,160
building like you know novelty usb drive creation is probably like you know if if we uh if we set up the

325
00:28:54,160 --> 00:29:00,160
factory to create only this type of usb drive instead of being able to vary it if we only create blue

326
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,240
ones the next time someone wants to order an orange one we're not going to do well and they're like i

327
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,720
don't know we got to ship these blue ones just make it do the blue ones and it just seems like as a

328
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,120
terrible analogy but no but i mean that's that's not awful i just think i mean even where i live

329
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:18,880
there's a lot of two lane roads because it was a backwater 25 years ago and now everyone seems to

330
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,960
be moving this way and so did you kind of take on debt and the first time going look i don't need

331
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,120
four lanes like i can just go one lane each way and now it's going to be a real pain in the neck

332
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,160
and shut down areas for six months to widen the the road i don't know are those that are those just

333
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,040
kind of what some people say realistically sometimes tech that's just smart to take in the first place

334
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,920
because it's an mvp maybe i don't want to over engineer this i don't want to bring in four database

335
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,720
types and purposely decouple all my code because it might be a garbage idea and now i've just wasted

336
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:52,000
months when i just really need to prove a concept so sometimes i take on debt on purpose just like

337
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,560
in real life you take on a mortgage you borrow you know borrow money for a car you know and our

338
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:02,240
colleague domain's done a great talk on kind of the kind of positive side sometimes of taking on debt

339
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,720
but then to your point sometimes you're actually purposely taking shortcuts or even accidentally

340
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,640
and that still holds you back so how are you at least going to pay that down at some point

341
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,360
so you're not completely constrained even this research again that the door and and

342
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,080
the team have done i think just starts to shine a light on what are examples of tech that like

343
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:25,760
insufficient test coverage incomplete migrations obsolete tech like these are things that are

344
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,760
eventually really going to bite you and you either try to do it all at once so you kind of keep this

345
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,960
continuous modernization mindset which i'm seeing maybe more people talk about a little more

346
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,840
and more than just these big bang migration projects but treating dead is something you're

347
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:45,280
always addressing not just on emergencies yeah yeah well you know that so speaking of

348
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,760
that's that's that's some other work uh somewhat related to some work i've been doing recently

349
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,160
that uh that i collectively call the uh the business bottleneck although i have to say

350
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,160
maybe i should just call it the bottleneck but i like this idea of saying like oh the business

351
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:04,880
has has has some some alignment issues but there's a uh a webinar me and another pivotal guy rick

352
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:11,040
clark have coming up uh later this week where that's basically part one of uh of the business

353
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:16,800
bottleneck and you know the tech debt thing is a good example of that where we don't really go over

354
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,360
this necessarily but it's uh i don't know a way of saying this that doesn't sound like you know the

355
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:26,800
nerds getting upset but it's sort of like well there's there's sort of business people making decisions

356
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:32,000
about what to do with technology without fully understanding not only limitations but like what's

357
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:38,320
possible with it and like the i started thinking about this idea one because everyone's all like

358
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,800
you know the culture is a problem and and uh i have to deal with finance and things like that

359
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:48,720
and it seems like there's uh in its best case where you've got your your product teams or your

360
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,440
developers deploying their software weekly and they can validate it and course correct and be a tech

361
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,600
company like i always wonder like if you have that setup does that just fix all the problems of a

362
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:05,120
business or of an organization or does the business side need to do uh need to do something like you know what

363
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:10,240
we usually recommend is as we were talking about earlier like you have a product manager which is not

364
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:16,000
necessarily a technical person but someone who kind of like is responsible for the product and the and the

365
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:22,080
business and i don't get the sense that in aggregate that role exists so much so there's some sort of uh

366
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:29,280
misalignment going on so i've been working on like a a book on that topic which which uh i should finish

367
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:34,960
at some point uh especially since there's more or less a deadline now but we have uh we got a webinar

368
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,880
it's a couple days from now and i think what we're going to do in this first part is uh just kind

369
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:45,440
of lay out some three key areas of misalignment and then uh the week after next we'll uh we'll

370
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,320
tell you all the solutions we'll magically solve them but more seriously we'll just kind of paint

371
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,840
a picture of what uh you know some possible ways to fix it and the three areas so far that we've

372
00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:03,120
settled on is how uh how the the annual cycle of finance and strategy and also just kind of a mistrust

373
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:09,360
of how they they like to fund uh it projects how that's kind of an annoyance and then this is the

374
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:15,200
next one is one that that rick thinks of a lot which is basically how uh the way that

375
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,600
compensation is done not only straight up pay but other things creates all sorts of problems

376
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:27,440
and he put it and i you know this is probably uh kind of touched on or at least uh uh i don't know

377
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,720
tangentially related to some some devops report stuff that if uh if you've got this independent

378
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:38,400
autonomous product team that's supposed to be acting as one and uh you know owning the team and working

379
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,160
together and yet if everyone gets paid based on individual conversations and their bonuses are

380
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,920
based on individuality and their career is based on what they do as an individual

381
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:54,880
that doesn't seem like a recipe for uh coolness and even more broadly right like the uh the business

382
00:33:54,880 --> 00:34:00,880
side gets compensated when uh the business is successful when there's revenue and they can

383
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,320
they can do things with the business and it gets compensated when they have good uptime which means

384
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,520
you don't want to change things very often so something at the macro and micro level of compensation

385
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:17,520
is a little wacky of of how things work and it gives you uh misaligned incentives uh to behave

386
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:23,440
right and i don't know i remember in counting this people would literally say uh you know there's no

387
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:30,000
reason for me to help this other person because because like i get my bonus based on my performance

388
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,600
so teamwork doesn't really apply here which which is a bummer and then i think i think more broadly

389
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,480
there's two more points and one is kind of what i was indicating is like these uh these two entities

390
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,040
they don't really seem to work on the same team so often there's usually like proxies and project

391
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:51,200
managers and things like that rather than you know i was thinking way back in 1999 in the extreme

392
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:57,920
programming book it more or less says right there when you're working on the internal chrysler hr system

393
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:04,000
you need to have someone from hr who uses the system in the room with the developers uh going over stuff

394
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:12,720
and um one uh you know who remembers that and and then and then two like i'm not sure that's even

395
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:17,280
practice very widely afterwards which i don't know we'll we'll see how we play around with that but i

396
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,160
figure like if uh if people are doing things on a weekly basis they need some input from the business

397
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:27,440
side at least they come up with wacky flying cars and uh and things like that but that's a little bit

398
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,720
of overview of the webinar and and the work in general and uh also rick and i will be doing a little

399
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:38,240
talk i think to open up the leadership leadership track going over these uh these concepts as well

400
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:42,800
which nice which will be delightful and there's i'll put a link to it in the show notes but uh

401
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,920
i've got just like i did for my uh monolithic transformation book i have the uh the draft that

402
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,040
i'm working on just available for people to look at which is is actually handy because then i get a

403
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,400
lot of reviews from people anyone who anyone who takes the time to read through it and leave a comment

404
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:04,880
is probably has something useful to say and uh and interesting and uh so so that would be great

405
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:10,880
if uh people are into that but i think that's uh has anything else notable been going on since last

406
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:20,160
we talked seven months ago uh you know besides uh again working with our friends at dell and vmware

407
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:25,680
on on some upcoming things and vm world uh europe coming up which i'll be going out to in barcelona

408
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:31,360
so yes yeah just a lot of this is you know continuing to accelerate what pivotal is up to

409
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,600
we've created some you know great new content on the blog always the webinar is coming out so

410
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:41,040
keeping busy on this stuff i'm interested you mentioned kind of some of the incentives and you

411
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,760
know hey people not working together in this and that in your kind of travails and research and

412
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:51,600
journeys do you you kind of land on what are good cross-functional metrics that actually align people

413
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,520
is it to come down to like business success because hey we're all aligned on this product making this

414
00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:00,720
much money or getting this many users and i don't care if you're in it or hr this or that how do you

415
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:04,880
make sure people do feel like they should work together you know i think this is one of those areas

416
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:12,800
that there's not enough actual stuff being done to say anything conclusive however uh

417
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:20,880
yeah i think i think in general like if you the the little anecdotes and things i hear here and there

418
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:29,520
is that if if you reward people in aggregate like at the team level then not only is that possible but

419
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,080
things go better right and the mechanics of what that looks like are kind of situational for what you

420
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:40,720
have right like that's part of the the the bottleneck or the misalignment is like you have to go to hr

421
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:48,320
and be like hey about the way we give people money yeah and and really work on the way you change that

422
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:54,720
around and i think i think the other thing and this isn't exactly a match to that but i i do i do hear

423
00:37:54,720 --> 00:38:02,240
about interesting ways of using like okrs and and things like that versus like traditional performance

424
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:08,400
metrics and that that being the the way that i i hear about okrs being used differently is more

425
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:16,240
it gives you it gives you almost a chance to correct what am i trying to say there's almost

426
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:21,680
this notion that we don't quite know if this is what we want to happen with an okr like built into it is

427
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:27,760
this test of a theory to like this kind of like uh provisionalness of it so it's different to say

428
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:33,600
like over the next like 30 days or 60 days which is a short period of time in the first place right

429
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,800
like we're going to test out this is something we're going to try to see if it is actually works

430
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,800
and also to push ourselves do it and i'm reading a little bit too much theoretic stuff and do a

431
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:49,600
classic okr but you can kind of do it that way versus like you know uh more classic metrics that

432
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:57,680
you would use which is like i don't know i'm going to bring in 50 units of awesome right or or i am

433
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:03,280
going to do the following things or even worse uh something that is like vague and not metricable

434
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:11,280
like i am going to uh mentor my team to perform better and align with the corporate values which is

435
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,520
like at the end of like an annual cycle of looking through those metrics like what do you do with

436
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:21,120
those things you just like that it's very subjective so there's some of those things i see but that also

437
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:27,280
reminds me well you'll be gallivanting with uh our vmware friends i'm going to be over at the

438
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:34,400
gartner it expo slash symposium trademark uh in barcelona and there's someone from daimler that

439
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:40,560
i'm doing a fireside chat with over lunch and this is exactly the kind of topic that we're planning on

440
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:47,840
on discussing like she she heads up the uh mercedes-bins.io organization uh with several

441
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,760
hundred people there and they have a i can never say it correctly how do you pronounce it

442
00:39:51,760 --> 00:40:01,760
heliography heliocracy there you go and uh i i was always terrible in ancient greek uh but like uh you

443
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,800
know she her she brought up several points uh that kind of have informed a little bit of my thinking

444
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:12,400
about business misalignment which is uh one how does that function and how do people manage their

445
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:18,400
careers and how do you incent people to act kind of in a more of a flat organization where they're they're

446
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:24,880
equals uh rather than not so hopefully we'll uh hash that out but yeah this uh i think i think this

447
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:31,280
this this topic anytime i talk a lot about something it means it's an interesting unknown topic otherwise i

448
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:36,880
would be brief and talk about burgers and stuff instead but uh i think this topic is like very

449
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:46,320
underexplored and it was also reminding me there's speaking of nicole dr dr nicole uh you know when she

450
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,760
worked at chef she actually gave a she had a presentation kind of on this topic like how you

451
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:58,560
how you create metrics for performance for staff performance of people in devops teams and i

452
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:05,280
remember i remember watching that and thinking like this is not relevant to my interest like about devops

453
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,840
or whatever this is just how you this is hr stuff and when i was kind of writing up this part of the

454
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:15,280
misalignment stuff i was like aha now that's interesting and i need to go back and and watch those because

455
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:20,080
it was keyed around exactly this point how do you put together metrics and career development

456
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,760
which uh seems highly relevant no it's a great topic i i finished the book over the summer

457
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:31,520
project product and again mick kirsten is over in your neck of the woods or your continent uh

458
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,680
was talking about again how do you align around product teams and what are those measurements

459
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,680
that kind of cross the teams in the streams and whether you're looking at quality and business

460
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,440
outcomes and there's a number of things that's actually a whole flow framework that he calls

461
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,760
out there it's a great book that again if you're trying to think about how to orient around products

462
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:53,600
and how to measure success of products and actually you know split up your work and things like that

463
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:58,320
actually have communication across the different functions where everyone speaks the same language

464
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,400
that was that was good content so hopefully we're seeing more people talk about this now that

465
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,880
people are actually trying this at scale yeah i should go reread that book that's probably for

466
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:12,080
me one of those i need to read it in one settings book because i you know it was a good book but i didn't i

467
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:17,760
never got as much out of it as everyone else seems to so i must have been uh in a bad mood or something

468
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:23,120
it's probably that red eye flight back to that's right i just i just remember some lengthy descriptions

469
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,720
of the of the the factories to make cool cars and uh yes but there were other things in there

470
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:34,480
going on there were yeah i was thinking like this is just a very elaborate way to expense buying a car

471
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:41,440
yeah this is how you get to spend a week in the bmw factory i guess i have to i have to be here for

472
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,720
my work that's that's why i'm here just got to go check some emails and then go check out the car

473
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:51,920
manufacturing but i did yeah but i don't but even then you do this well too i mean i like when people

474
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:56,000
try to bring in maybe not our technical debt tortured metaphors but when people are actually

475
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,880
trying to connect some of these real life things like an actual auto factory and how they extend and

476
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,960
how they can you know elevate the bottleneck and they look at constraints like that's i think

477
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,520
for most people a lot simpler than trying to describe how the it you know quality team

478
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,640
slows down software delivery like it's just different so i like when people try to pull it in from

479
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,840
different disciplines that helps me personally so it's uh yeah go visit the bmw factory

480
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,360
well i think maybe the last thing speaking of books i'm not done reading it but i always like uh i

481
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:30,480
always like the professor reeda mcgrath she uh i forget the name of her last book that i really

482
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,080
like but you just go look it up but she has a new book that i've been reading called uh i think it's

483
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:41,360
it's seeing around corners and uh it's it's it's perhaps a tad too business bookie uh versus academic

484
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:47,360
but uh well whatever and and i think i think so far i'm about halfway through and i think i think she

485
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:54,480
has a good framing you know we're basically ever since uh let me see ever since like the those two

486
00:43:54,480 --> 00:44:01,120
engineers formed uh you know bcg and then you went over to michael porter like there's been this this

487
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:07,360
kind of like refining of what strategy is but then more importantly like the the toolkit that

488
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:12,640
strategists use that's that's always the difficult part is like well strategy has two difficult parts

489
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:18,080
one is the toolkit that you use reliably and two is getting anyone to listen to you

490
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:30,800
and uh like um so she her she she has a further refinement of of the idea of of how to respond or

491
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:36,560
protect yourself from disruption whether you want to make it uppercase or lowercase d and and i think

492
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:42,240
the the the crux of what she goes over so far is that instead of thinking about like the

493
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:47,920
industry you operate in as a well-defined market that has you know you and your competitors this

494
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,680
you know a michael porter view of it where you've got your suppliers and your competitors and your

495
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:58,560
customers and it all fits together on that like nice chevron way of doing things that instead what

496
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:04,640
you do is to use her words you think of an arena and any sort of thing can enter the arena and not

497
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:10,320
necessarily even compete with you directory directly but they can also redefine what the market is and

498
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:15,920
the basis of competition and you know so forth and so on and and instead the thing you center around is

499
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:20,960
like the notion of like a job to be done which is like the thing you're the problem you're solving for

500
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:26,160
your customer and it gets a little like this is one of those areas where like things get a little

501
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:32,480
abstract experience wise where like at some point you don't want to necessarily think that like i'm

502
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:38,080
netflix and the arena i operate in is how people spend their leisure time because next thing you know you're

503
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:42,320
buying bike companies and like you know things like that that they spend their leisure time in but

504
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:47,440
whatever it's just sort of like the way people spend their attention and uh the job they're hiring

505
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:53,120
you for and if someone else can do it and even more like uh concretely i always think of it as like

506
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:59,120
share a wallet right like people have a limited amount of money to spend and uh you would prefer

507
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:05,040
they spend more of it with you than with other other people and so you've got to somehow battle that out but

508
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:12,480
she has some interesting uh sort of frameworks and tactics a toolkit to uh to use to kind of try to see

509
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:19,280
around corners to find the inflection points as she says so uh so there's a couple of books for you all

510
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:25,120
listeners to find your time with and uh you know as always this has been Pivotal Conversations if you

511
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:31,600
want to uh see the past episodes we have a whole slew of interviews with uh people who are speaking at

512
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,800
SpringOne platform across several topics there's one that i i mentioned about uh about product

513
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:42,400
management and our friend mark heckler has interviews that are very uh spring and uh sort of

514
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:49,520
technical oriented if you you want to uh take a gander at those and remember next week october 7th to 10th

515
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:54,080
in austin texas SpringOne platform where we will be and i'm sure we'll talk about it afterwards

516
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,200
but if you want to see all those past episodes you can go to soundcloud.com

517
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:02,720
slash Pivotal Conversations and they'll all be there for you and the show notes which we which we keep

518
00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:09,520
referring to will be posted at pivotal.io slash podcast and with that we'll see everyone next time bye bye