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Hey there. This is another interview from Mark in our SpringOne Platform speaker series.

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It's a pretty good one. I hope you enjoy it. Why don't you check out the conference that this is

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pulled from, SpringOne Platform. It's over at springoneplatform.io. It's October 7th and 10th

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in my hometown of Austin, Texas. And if you want to get $200 off registration when you go to

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springoneplatform.io and register, use the code S1P200 underscore M Heckler. That's S1P200

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underscore M H E C K L E R. You can also check the show notes at pivotal.io slash podcast to get that

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spelled out to you. So with that, enjoy the episode. We have Cora Iberkleid joining us. Cora, if you would

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introduce yourself to the folks and let's kick this off. Thanks so much for having me, Mark. It's a

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pleasure to be here. I am a platform architect at Pivotal. I've been working there for about five

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years. And so as a platform architect, my job is to help customers understand how our technologies

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can help them streamline their processes, whether it's on the development side or on the operational

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side, and then really be there as a partner and a guide as they use Cloud Foundry throughout their

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journey to make sure that they're successful and that they accomplish all the goals that the

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technology can help an enterprise accomplish. I've been doing that for about five years and

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I'm really, I'm really, I feel really privileged because Pivotal is a place with a very positive

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and kind spirit. And I feel like I have the privilege of working with people who are incredibly

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intelligent and enthusiastic and inspiring. And so I feel really lucky to be here and get

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to work with all of the wonderful customers that we get to work with.

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Yes, likewise, actually. And I was just thinking as you were saying that, that I think you might have

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been one of the first people I met when I came on at Pivotal almost four years ago now. And same thing,

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I've always really respected your breadth and depth of knowledge as well as your kindness too. So yeah,

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which is why I wanted to chat with you today. If you don't mind taking us back maybe a little bit

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further before Pivotal, maybe before a lot before Pivotal, or maybe not so much before Pivotal, but

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how did you get into tech? What drew you into this crazy, wonderful field that we're in?

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It's a great question. It's interesting because I actually, I grew up in a family where my dad is a

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mathematician. My mom, although she didn't work with it, she'd studied biology and plant pathology. So I

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always grew up with this idea of sciences and my dad worked in tech. He did have a job that focused

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on tech for a long time. So I kind of always was raised to follow this path of science, but not

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necessarily tech, even though my dad worked in tech for some time. So I went to college and I actually

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ended up studying chemistry because I didn't really think about it too much. It just took a class and I

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liked it. And as it went on, I found that I didn't really identify with the people that were studying

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chemistry. And so I just decided sort of randomly in my third year of college to take CS 101. And I

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immediately loved it. It was this, you know, instant gratification. It's this very logical way of

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thinking there's this, it's a, it's a job where you're very much in your head. Whereas in chemistry,

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like it's a combination of in your head, but then like all this lab work and just this challenge of

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organizing your thoughts in a very logical way. And this satisfaction from trying to organize them in

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the most elegant, streamlined, efficient way, and having this immediate gratification where you hit run

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and it works in front of you or it doesn't. And if it doesn't work, you know that there's a solution

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that you can get to. All of that was so fun, really, and appealing. And the, when I started to learn more

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about the different, I guess, just different algorithms and constructs and the way that you've been

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organizing, like I had, I had a really good time with it in college. And then through that, I ended up, even

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though, again, I graduated not with a degree in computer science, I ended up applying to all of the same jobs

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that by then all the engineers that I had met were applying to. And I landed, I could have actually

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probably ended up in some consulting company, but I just had a good fortune. I landed in a business

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intelligence company. And at the time, I think, because I, I am the kind of person who feels like

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they need to master things before they go out in the world and show, you know, some people feel more

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comfortable just sort of presenting things with, as they're learning. And I guess there's some other

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people and I, I've definitely, I've improved in this sense, but I definitely started off as a person

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who wanted to master it on my own before I went out in the world. So I ended up getting hired by a

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company that enabled you to choose the job that you wanted to do after the initial training. And so I

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chose technical support because I thought that'll give me a chance to really get good at this.

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And then I can go out in the world and do consulting or something like that. And evidently that is what

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ended up happening. I spent several years doing customer support, which is a wonderful job. It makes,

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it made me extremely resourceful and made me understand how software is built in the way that

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you need to troubleshoot it and how to collect all the data that you need in order to realize where a

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problem is and try to minimize the problem to its essence. I think that's what really, I think tech support

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really helps me develop some really great skills. And then I was able to take that and at a certain

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point say, okay, I would like to go to consulting. And through that process, I worked for different

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companies and each one has been very supportive in either allowing me to change locations or change

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roles. But I ended up spending a few years doing consulting, which gave me the opportunity then to

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travel to different customers and see how different customers were doing things. And, you know,

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even just learn basic things like things that I had learned in one context to understand that they

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actually applied, they were industry concepts. They weren't necessarily particular to the companies

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that I'd worked for before. And that just gives you this broad perspective of things that are common

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across all these enterprises. And from that, I was lucky enough to land in this role at Pivotal,

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which initially was more of a pre-sales role because I wouldn't have naturally navigated towards anything

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related to sales. So I feel really lucky that I got here because this is probably the most collaborative

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type of work that I've ever done. But yeah, it was sort of serendipitous. And I think it was influenced by the

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fact that at the time that I graduated, there were a lot of jobs in technology. And so a little bit is sort of

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kind of circumstance and some luck. But I think everything in life is like that, right? Like you think

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sometimes you make very deliberate choices and sometimes life chooses a path for you. And the fact

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that you stay means that it was right for you. And I think that's kind of how it happened to me. Like tech

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sort of came into my life somehow based on opportunity and circumstance. And I've stayed because I've enjoyed

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it so much.

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Yeah, that's a really great way of looking at things. I always think of it as when you're making the decisions

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and it's something may seem so random and it doesn't feel like it's very well planned in many

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cases and really wasn't necessarily planned. But when you look back, you can see this kind of natural

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progression. It's easier to look back at the story from the end of the book, I guess, than from the

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beginning of the book when you don't know how it's all going to come together. But yet somehow it always

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does. I mean, you've kind of covered so many things that you do enjoy about the field in general and

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about your position. But is there anything in particular that you kind of look at and just say,

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wow, this is, I'm living my best life?

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Well, I think one of the things that has, yeah, I guess I can mention two things. One is that

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in the most, in more recent years, I've become closer to what it really means to be working with

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open source technologies and what it means to be working with people who are really involved with

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open source technologies. And that's something that I think is in huge part, thanks to the fact that the

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Spring Team is part of Pivotal. I mean, you know, Pivotal, like all of our technologies are open

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sourced. But in the sense of something that really came originally from open source and functions in a

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broader way, the access that I've had, the insight that I've gained, and I think it's led to this

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culture and technology where everybody is building on everybody else's knowledge. So this happens

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both in my work with Spring Technologies and also Cloud Foundry and just really anything that I'm

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presenting to any client because of the work that other peers of mine, other platform architects or

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other people at Pivotal have done before me. But anything that I do, leverage is so much of what

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other people have done before me. And it's just this feeling of, you can feel a lot of pride and you

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can feel a lot of satisfaction and fulfillment from feeling that, knowing that you have contributed

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to a set of knowledge in a way that other people can take advantage of. It's the same way you use

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someone else's knowledge. You are giving something new for other people to build on. And even if you're

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only adding like a little slice on top of it, there's so much, by virtue of that, you have so much

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respect and appreciation for all of the people whose shoulders you stand on. And the beauty of it is

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that all of them have done the same with, you know, with others before them. And they are all so

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supportive of, I found, everyone has been so supportive of helping me add that little bit that I can.

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And so validating that it is appreciated and that it is meaningful. Even if I don't initially

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realize that it, that it is meaningful, I feel like I'm just, you know, trying to catch up with

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other people. But at the end of the day, even in that effort of catching up, when you absorb that

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information and can repeat it back and, and with your own perspective, you really are giving back to

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the community in a, in a way that, that people appreciate. And that, I think that aspect of, of it in this

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latest iteration of my life in the last, I think it's become more evident for me or in the last maybe

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three or four years. I think it ties into like how I even got to be a speaker at SpringOne.

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I've received so much help and support to get here. But I think that's been one of the things that I

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really love.

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It's funny you mentioned the contributions because don't you find that it's hard for us as individuals

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to gauge, to measure our contributions and how meaningful they might turn out to be for others?

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Because it seems like so many times we work on something that we consider a masterwork. This is

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a huge contribution and it's going to be so useful to so many people. And it just doesn't seem to catch

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much wind. And then some other time you, you make some almost throwaway contribution, something that

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you look at and you think, oh, well, you know, that might be useful for one or two people. Eh,

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you know, maybe not, but I'll, I'll throw it in there. And then all of a sudden you, you hear

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consistently how much that's helped someone or how that helped them break through, or that was a

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requirement they'd had sitting on the back burner for so long. And they were so glad that you did that.

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I mean, don't you see that happening more often than, than not?

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I feel like it's very, it's hard to predict sometimes where and how your contributions will

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be meaningful. And I do find that sometimes I do something and I, I don't even share it that widely,

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but somehow people find it, you know, because things are stored in such public places. Like you could

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put something on GitHub or you could put something on a, on a Google drive, right. And you don't even know

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how useful it is being to people. And then suddenly somebody will repeat back to you or you'll,

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you'll see something that you did pop up somewhere else. I do think it's very hard to predict. And

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then there are things that are, that catch more fire because they're simpler for someone to absorb.

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And then there's things that by their nature rely on so many other pieces being put together that

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they're hard for somebody else to replicate. But then I think in those cases, what I found,

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and this is true, for example, for, for things that I've done related to CICD in particular,

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because it's a combination of so many pieces, it's harder for people to take what you've done

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and replicate it. But then I feel like the ideas that you distill from it and the, and the

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recommendations, those things do tend to have more of a, an impact and they spread more easily.

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Does that make sense?

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Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Wait, you've actually kind of led very naturally slash accidentally into

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my next couple of questions that I wanted to ask about what you had presented in the past and where

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you're kind of headed like this year at SpringOne and maybe future. But last year you had presented

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about spring cloud gateway and the open service broker API, which, you know, you're talking about

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openness and open source and how the community builds and how, you know, we work with community to kind of

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deliver something that the community finds super useful. Your talk last year about the gateway and

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about the open service broker API, has your thinking evolved or changed on that any at all over the

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last year? Or are you still kind of in the same place?

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Well, I think in particular, I wouldn't say it's my thinking as much as the fact that in the context of

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gateway and spring cloud gateway, the spring cloud gateway team and primarily Spencer Gibb have come out

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with an iteration of spring cloud gateway that implements our socket. And so from my perspective, I think that

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what I'm, and so this coming year, I'm going to co-present with Spencer and hopefully do something

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interesting with a spring cloud gateway to show people. But I think it's the, the ramifications

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and the implications that our socket has not only for gateway, but in general are to me, they're,

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they're just phenomenal. I mean, I can't remember the last time that I, that every time that somebody

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points out what it means to the industry or to different aspects of how we do technology, what our

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socket can do, that I've had so many, oh, wow moments, so many moments of awe. So I think it's really

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exciting to see where all of this goes and like how quickly and how broadly companies can take

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advantage of this technology. So in the context of gateway, I think what's changed for me is this

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eyeopening sort of learning into what's coming and how to take advantage of that, all the ramifications.

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We all have our pet peeves, right? But personally, I always find the term game changer to be a little

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grading because I think it's used in so many contexts where it just has no business being used. But our

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socket really is one of those, dare I say it, pivotal technologies. But it certainly is a game changer

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because it does allow you to do so much more. And it's kind of interesting because with it being

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incorporated into gateway, I had an earlier conversation with someone about this very topic

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because Netflix has done amazing things for this industry in terms of what it's the capabilities

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it's exposed and shared in terms of open source. And of course, Spring Cloud, Netflix has done a lot

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of cool things. A lot of organizations have built their entire microservices based architectures around

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a lot of those components. But there were certainly things that Netflix obviously due to their

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their own self-interest, right? I mean, they have to meet their requirements. They kind of took some

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things in a direction, either they de-supported and moved on, they took them in a different direction.

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And they didn't always, you know, for obvious reasons, they didn't always support everyone's

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particular use case, use cases that were very critical to them that may not have been at all

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critical to Netflix. So gateway kind of came into being in many ways because of the lack of satisfying

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some of those specific use cases by Zool. And the same thing with ribbon and things like that and other

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comparable evolving components within the Spring Cloud portfolio. But gateway obviously does some

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things that Zool was never designed or may never be designed to handle. And our socket, of course,

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support in gateway, I think is huge. So I love that you're, you're talking about the reactive

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architectures with our socket and Spring Cloud gateway as well, because I think that does open up so many

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possibilities. So it's cool that you're bringing that out. Your other talk actually excites me as

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well, but for different reasons, the square pegs, square holes, CICD. Because CICD is something that

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it's very easy to talk about all of these concepts and how much leverage they will give you and your

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organization in terms of delivering more capabilities, better capabilities faster. But without a pipeline,

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that becomes pretty tough to do, right?

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It is very tough. And I think the beautiful thing about all of these technologies that are maturing and,

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you know, again, in the last sort of five years, right, with Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes,

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is that when the more complicated CICD pipelines are the ones that have to deal with lower level

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infrastructure. But now that we have these platforms that make everything easier, they make

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things easier for developers, they make things easier for operators. So by, by virtue of that,

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they're also making things easier for the pipelining layer of the stack. And so the pipelining layer can

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now become much more powerful as well. So one of the latest tools, for example, is Spinnaker. And to do a

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blue-green deployment, you know, six or seven years ago was hard to impossible. To do it with a technology

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like Cloud Foundry or Kubernetes is easier. And because of that, now you introduce Spinnaker into

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the stack. And as you're designing your CICD pipeline, you just choose, you know, red-black from a

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dropdown list. And then it's just a question of making sure that as you consider CICD more broadly,

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that your developers are being responsible enough so that when their applications are deployed in this

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blue-green fashion, they can guarantee their success. As things become simpler, the possibilities of what

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you can accomplish become bigger. And it's easier to accomplish better things. So it's pretty exciting there

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as well.

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Yeah, it really is. That kind of force multiplier, sometimes you hear that term thrown about. And I think that's a huge

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part of it, right? You can have all the right components, but if you don't have a way to

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effectively put them into that pipeline and feed them through those pipelines, nothing happens, right?

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So SpringOne Platform. This is our favorite time of the year or one of our favorite times of the year,

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right? And we're coming up on SpringOne Platform in Austin, Texas. So if I could ask, what's your

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favorite thing about SpringOne Platform? If you had to choose just one or maybe just a couple,

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what are you looking forward to the most?

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I think I really love the energy of it. I love the way that it sets the tone for all of the technologies

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that are presented, all of the people who are there. But when you come in and hear the keynotes and hear

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what the leadership, what the visionaries are thinking and where we're going, I think it helps you put a

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perspective on things and get really excited about the future and help put things together in a way

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that is more meaningful. You know, and then you can go off and meet all these great people and learn

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about specific technologies. But I love the way that it puts everything into context. It makes you feel

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like you're a part of something and you know where it's going and you can get excited about the vision.

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It really does. So I mean, I know there are a lot of people who kind of make SpringOne Platform their

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must-go-to event every year, which is wonderful. I mean, we have an amazing community that's well

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known and well loved. But what about for the person who's kind of on the fence? Maybe they're new to

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the whole environment. Maybe they're new to SpringOne Platform or they're just looking for maybe the

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compelling reason other than barbecue. Obviously, if you're into barbecue, that probably is enough. But

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if you're not, what would you say to someone who's kind of considering coming to SpringOne Platform but

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maybe still on the fence? I think that the opportunity to feel part of a community and to meet other like-minded

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folks who are doing similar things to what you might be doing or thinking of doing and who can

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show you other possibilities, applications, and other things that are going on around. I think that's

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very impactful because it's different to sit, you know, on your own or maybe with your team and try to figure

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things out just by reading online. I think that the opportunity to interact with people who are doing what you are

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is extremely powerful and sometimes you don't even foresee like where it'll take you.

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So I think that's probably one of the primary reasons. You just pack so much into a few days and you come out

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inspired and, you know, you're positioned to know that things exist and to learn things faster, I think, from then

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on. And some of the folks that you interact with are, you know, like the Spring Team, right? People who are the source,

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of what you're using and to the chance to meet them and ask them questions directly. I think that's also

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very special.

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Yeah. And you didn't really even mention one of my favorite reasons that I think people should come to

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SpringOne Platform, which is they will get the opportunity to meet, to chat with, to exchange information and pick the brain of Cora Iberclide.

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So I mean, seriously. I will be there. That is a great, great opportunity to come in and meet people

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who are influencing the direction of stuff that we use, rely on, and are excited about its evolution

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every day. So I think that this is a great opportunity. I know it's a great opportunity for

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folks to come and meet you and to chat with you and come to your sessions. Obviously, that makes sense.

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But also to catch up with you afterward and chat and just exchange horror stories or information or

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questions and answers and just to kind of get to know you. But in the interim, while they're out

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getting their tickets, while they're out booking their flights and what have you, how would they be

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able to get in touch with you? How would they be able to keep up with what's going on in your

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development cycle, so to speak, and to reach out, get in contact with you and meet up with you at

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SpringOne? Well, yeah, thanks for that. And I would love to hear from everyone who is at

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SpringOne. If I had time, I would love to talk to everyone. But yeah, in the interim, I am on

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Twitter and generally at C Iberclide is a handle I use for almost all social media. So if you are ever

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looking for me, try C Iberclide and you will probably find me. All right. Twitter is one good way.

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Absolutely. And I know that because I follow you on Twitter. So if you aren't following Cora,

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if you're listening to this and you aren't following Cora, you should be. So with that,

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I guess I will let you get back to your day and really appreciate your time, Cora. This was a

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great opportunity. Any opportunity I get to chat with you, like I said, I always love to do that because

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again, you're one of the sharpest, kindest people I've ever met. And this is just a great opportunity to

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pick your brain yet again. So with that, thanks for your time and see you at SpringOne.

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Thank you, Mark. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

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Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview. I sure did. Hey, and as a bonus for listening this far,

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if you want to register for SpringOne Platform, the wonderful conference we have coming up October

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7th to 10th in my hometown, Austin, Texas, when you go to springoneplatform.io to register,

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you can use the code S1P200 underscore M Heckler. That's M-H-E-C-K-L-E-R. That's Mark's last name.

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You can find the discount code if you go to pivotal.io slash podcast as well, and that'll get

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you $200 off the registration fee, price, winning admission, however you want to think about it.

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Well, we've got several of these coming out. So if you enjoyed this one, you should check out the

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other ones. And otherwise, tune into the regular Pivotal Conversations each week or so, and we'll

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see you next time. Bye-bye.