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We were just talking before the show.

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We got a compressed schedule here.

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So I'm going to be brief in my opening inanity.

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But Rita, now I know Richard doesn't know.

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Tell me about eating a pig head.

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Have you done that before?

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I have not.

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I have tasted pig brain.

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I had a friend who roasted a whole pig and kind of stuck my finger in through the eye hole and got a little scoop there.

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Wow.

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Just brutal.

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That is the worst sentence I've ever heard said.

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That is literally.

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Oh, gosh.

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I know.

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I did it.

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I know.

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I don't know.

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It was crazy.

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It was pudding like in texture and smoky because it was on a fire.

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It was great.

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I mean, brain is a very delicate delicacy for a reason.

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It's delicious.

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I only know two things about eating brain.

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One, it goes with fava beans.

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That's what I learned.

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And two, I think we probably talked about this, Richard.

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You have to remind me.

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I think when I was in Beijing a year or so ago, I had Paul Kubernetes or Tasty Meats.

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Paul and I had pig brain.

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And here's my review.

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Not good.

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Don't eat it.

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No.

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Well, how was it?

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Maybe if I think if it was smoky and sucked out through an eye socket, it might be good.

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But it was basically deep fried.

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And it was just, you know, I used to tell people that I'll eat anything, which is pretty much true.

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But I've decided what I'm going to tell them is I'll eat anything, but I don't like organs.

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Like I'll eat organs if I have to, but I really am not into it.

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I don't want organs.

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I don't know.

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I think our new band name is Hot Eyehole.

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So, gosh.

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I've had cav brain before as well.

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Yeah.

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I think, and this is just a theory.

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I have no idea if there's anything that backed me up.

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When I think about the smarter the animal, the more, I guess, luscious or, as I said, pudding-like.

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Like fatty.

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The brain is, maybe.

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I don't know.

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Because I remember hearing an episode about people who, in Appalachia, they still eat squirrel and raccoon.

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Yeah.

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And I think someone mentioned that there was a difference in the texture of the brains.

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The smarter the brain, the smoother.

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I mean, smarter the animal, the smoother the texture of the brain.

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But, you know, I'm making that up.

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Well, listen.

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This is a testable theory.

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So, maybe next time.

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Maybe.

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Maybe.

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What week is SpringOne Platform?

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October 7th to 9th?

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Did I get that right?

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Yeah.

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Well, I'll eat some octopus or whatever else are really smart animals.

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I don't know.

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Octopus.

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I've given up octopus.

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I only will do it if I'm in Spain.

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Because they're sort of, I know this is not politically correct to say, but that's, it's my spirit animal.

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I thought you were going to say they're super.

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I know they are super smart, but if we're supposed to eat smart things, it obviously can't be people.

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Like, I'm just trying to pick smart animals.

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And you can't, you know, I have a, yeah, pigs are really smart too, apparently.

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Smarter than dogs.

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Well, listen.

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Apologies to all the listeners who didn't like the previous discussion.

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Now we're going to get on to computers.

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My understanding of computers are dumb as a post.

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However, they are an exception to the rule.

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Good.

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So don't, don't eat computers, even though, well, maybe this confirms they're really dumb.

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So they're not tasty.

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I'm not going to be very tasty.

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Definitely not very tender, unless heated up really hot, in which case it would melt your mouth.

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So don't, don't go eating the, the Terminator.

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What was it?

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The T2000?

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That, that one.

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Well, well, you know, I was just on vacation.

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All sorts of big news here in Pivotal land while I was gone.

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You want to give us the summary, Richard?

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Yeah.

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What things can I summarize?

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So there was some, as I call the end of summer shopping for our friends at VMware who announced

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Intent to Inquire Pivotal, Carbon Black, which I actually thought was a Marvel superhero,

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but also a pretty cool name.

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And I think they did like four acquisitions the last two weeks.

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So they've just been doing a lot of things to build their portfolio up.

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So, you know, stay tuned for when things may, may keep going.

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But I think it's a nice complimentary story.

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VMware put out a good blog post.

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We linked to Pivotal from Rob, me, put out a good blog post and, and Forrester had a

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really nice take on kind of how this all fits together.

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So worth taking a look at all of those and seeing what happens.

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And then VMware, all this actually happening this week that we're recording, they just put

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out a post announcing some of their stuff, including some pretty cool stuff, Project

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Pacific, which bakes Kubernetes into vSphere, which is pretty neat.

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So you have the most ubiquitous infrastructure in the enterprise now with kind of Kubernetes native

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capabilities.

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So that'll be coming out shortly.

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Some other things around management of Kubernetes, wherever it sits with the mission control work,

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continue to do more and more.

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So it really does seem like kind of Kubernetes is starting to coalesce in VMware as being

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a place where not only are they committing a lot to the open source, but making it commercially

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available in a serious way.

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So pretty neat stuff.

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It's, uh, it's cool to see VMware playing to win.

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Yeah.

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You know, this is reminding me, I think all the way back in December of 2014, I went to

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like the, uh, the Docker con in Amsterdam.

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And I remember I met with, uh, what's his name?

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I think his name was his name chip, the guy who was heading up cloud native stuff at, uh,

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at VMware.

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And, uh, we were just kind of discussing it and trying to figure out, well, I was trying

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to figure out what he was talking about.

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He seemed to know what he was talking about.

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But, uh, now, now, uh, this time later, it seems like they, they got full cloud native

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stuff going on over there as, as it's evolved.

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So that's, uh, that's fun stuff.

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Also on the Forrester blog, I, you know what I heard Rita, I heard that Forrester hired some

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new, um, CMO person, which I think shows cause they've got like big bright pictures of

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analysts on their blogs.

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Yeah.

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Very clear.

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Always nice to see them.

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They got that new podcast they started, but anyways, I was just remembering that picture

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on their blog.

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Yeah.

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So also, uh, oh, and then we have Rita on as a guest who does analyst relations.

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We'll come back and talk in more detail about that.

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Uh, she, she of eating pig brains through eyeballs, but anyhow, uh, so also, uh, the, the

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new DevOps report came out, which I think we, we supported or sponsored a little bit or a

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lot bit, I don't know.

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Uh, and, uh, I, I only, you know, it has the usual stuff you would expect in, in a good

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way in the DevOps report that like, you know, doing DevOps practices, still good.

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You should do those.

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Uh, and, and I, and I think, you know, being less flippant, I think there was a, uh, increase

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in, in hiring higher performing organizations, uh, since last time.

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So, uh, things are getting better, at least in the survey base.

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And I'll just, uh, I'll just say my highlight and maybe, maybe you have one, uh, you have

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one Richard, uh, which was, there was a new section on, um, tactics organizations use to

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transform.

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I think there was a better name for it, but basically they had six sort of ways that organizations

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change all the way up from, uh, just bottoms up change to, uh, have a center of excellence

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to, um, there's a couple that are basically kind of the model that I see a lot of people

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who are pivotal customers use, which is start with a few teams and then figure out some way

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to clone them or spread them out through the organization.

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Uh, and then of course the big bang change where you just do everything at once, uh, that

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one done by the least amount of people to the least success.

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And then my favorite, they call it mashup, which is, I don't know, everything, uh, which

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was also, uh, widely practiced.

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But I think, I think what, um, the conclusion they had that it was interesting from there,

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there's a couple of things.

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One that are mostly confirming of what I tend to see out there.

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One is like, uh, your center of excellence thing doesn't tend to work very well because

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you isolate all these people off into their own organization and they might even train people

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and training is kind of in this bucket is too as well.

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But the problem is there's two problems.

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One, people kind of just go to get trained and then they kind of go back and it, uh, they

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might have new skills, but it's not like a kind of a hands-on transformational thing.

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I'm in, I'm interpolating, I think a lot into this because it's really only three pages in

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an 84 page document.

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Uh, but the other thing, which I think, which I think was very gently pointed out was that,

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uh, if you are someone who's training and, and center of excellencing and, uh, not working

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on product, you start to, as, as I just said, not actually be working on the product and,

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uh, you lose a little bit of touch with stuff, which becomes a little weird after a while.

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But, you know, as with all studies, as they say, your mileage may vary.

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I think there's even some internet acronym for that or initialization, but, uh, it's a

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good, it's a good little overview of, uh, it's a study of something I haven't seen really

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surveyed before, which was fun to look at.

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But how about yourself, Richard?

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You see anything cool in there?

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Yeah.

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Like you said, there was a lot of good guidance stuff.

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I thought one thing that stood out and I have to read this three or four more times and,

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and quick plug, Nicole or Dr.

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Forrest and I are doing the webinar on this September 12th.

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So she and I will be doing a webinar about this report on the pivotal site, which will

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be great.

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Uh, but the one thing that I was looking at was the disaster recovery stuff's fascinating

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that even the elite performers are less than half are doing even application failover,

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just, you know, disaster recovery.

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So like, we're still really bad at that or else we just are deprioritizing it, I guess

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might say is that in no case, we're even half of the people in any sort of test actually

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doing it.

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So whether that's failover or chaos monkey stuff or simulations or, you know, network

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failures, like any sort of real DR tests, even the best performers weren't even at half,

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which is fascinating to me.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I remember that.

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I remember that one.

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It's also interesting.

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If I was reading it right, there's, there's like only seven to 9% of people actually do like

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production chaos monkey testing, which, which, uh, matches like your first blessed intuition

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to this idea that you'll purposely bring down production, that intuition being that sounds

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crazy, uh, I guess, but, but it is like a little, um, I don't know for it, for as popular

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and as much as that's talked about, it either shows that there's a lot of opportunity or some

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weird as, as they would say product market mismatch.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I don't know.

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Well, I wonder, cause I, I mean, I went back and looked to, and it, uh, mentioned, I think

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29% of respondents said they actually meet all the five, uh, NIST cloud criteria stuff.

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So if you were thinking about kind of, Hey cloud, unless you're mistakenly thinking that

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cloud stuff's more reliable or it fails less, I don't need to do as much DR as I used to

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versus a lot of people who use public cloud say, Hey, it's actually sometimes more ephemeral

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things can disappear.

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Things, weird things happen.

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We should do more DR testing.

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Like, I don't know.

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Just fascinating to see, like if we're doing, we're trying to be better at cloud, but we're

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getting worse at DR.

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Are we just assuming the clouds do more?

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I don't know how to reconcile all that.

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Yeah.

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Did you have a look at this report, Rita?

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I did not.

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Well now, now, now to have a second question, let's in, in, in the general area of like

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analyst world, like, uh, what, what's, what's their sense for how DevOps is doing?

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Would they say that it's increased or like, is there an analog of this kind of report that

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you find in, in, in, uh, analyst land?

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That's funny.

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They say that I actually, um, they're talking a lot about scaling DevOps.

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So, you know, as we know, the, the analyst firms talk with large, you know, uh, conservative

240
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quote unquote organizations.

241
00:11:31,660 --> 00:11:36,100
And they, they, they see that there's DevOps happening here and there are smaller groups,

242
00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:38,040
but they're having a hard time scaling it.

243
00:11:38,820 --> 00:11:41,100
Um, so that's, that's come up a lot.

244
00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:48,360
Um, and I know at least Gartner is really kind of, um, pushing this concept of platform

245
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,700
ops and platform teams, right.

246
00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:55,500
Which is, uh, supposedly, you know, will, will help scale DevOps by instilling a product

247
00:11:55,500 --> 00:12:00,000
mindset and building balanced teams, which, you know, ties in nicely to a lot of the stuff

248
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,620
that we've been doing and that we see our customers doing our more successful customers

249
00:12:03,620 --> 00:12:06,840
have figured that out and are, are, are, are doing it that way.

250
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,240
So, yeah, I love that you guys started talking about this because that is definitely a trend

251
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,720
I'm seeing is, so how do we scale this now?

252
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,140
How do we take DevOps and make it real?

253
00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:16,600
That does seem to be a lot.

254
00:12:16,660 --> 00:12:22,000
I mean, the, the, the, the PD reports I see, they do tend to cover, uh, doing DevOps in

255
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,980
the large a lot more, which, which, uh, which is interesting.

256
00:12:25,060 --> 00:12:26,040
DevOps in the large.

257
00:12:26,140 --> 00:12:26,540
I love it.

258
00:12:27,140 --> 00:12:27,900
Large jobs.

259
00:12:28,780 --> 00:12:33,180
Anyways, uh, so there's a lot of, uh, in pivotal land, there's a lot of open source,

260
00:12:33,180 --> 00:12:35,500
uh, updates going on there.

261
00:12:35,860 --> 00:12:40,220
Uh, first of all, where there's a, there's a steel toe update just for people who, uh,

262
00:12:40,220 --> 00:12:42,420
haven't listened to every single episode we've ever done, Rick.

263
00:12:43,540 --> 00:12:44,900
What, what is steel toe?

264
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:45,800
Yeah.

265
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:50,120
It's a set of libraries for .NET developers, whether you're using .NET framework on windows,

266
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,480
.NET core on Linux or windows kind of help them do microservices, these sort of stuff.

267
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,560
So whether you're doing, you know, configuration stores and circuit breakers and service discovery,

268
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all these sort of concepts that make sense in the microservices world, making it easier.

269
00:13:03,340 --> 00:13:06,100
So you're not hard coding all this boilerplate infrastructure stuff.

270
00:13:06,380 --> 00:13:12,680
So there's a new release to three, uh, 2.3 has some new stuff, has some new, uh, connectors

271
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to backing systems like gem fire, Oracle database connector, SQL server stuff, support, uh, some

272
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other health check things.

273
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So some nice little updates.

274
00:13:20,540 --> 00:13:23,500
There's a big update coming for 3.0, but this team keeps humming along.

275
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,800
And then, uh, let, we'll do a little game here.

276
00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:30,820
Usually you are much better informed about, uh, items than I am.

277
00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:34,520
I, I actually did spend some time to prepare because I got that.

278
00:13:34,580 --> 00:13:39,360
I still got that vacation relaxedness where my mind running slow enough to actually think.

279
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,220
And, uh, I tried to educate myself on the other two things and tell me, tell me how I did here.

280
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:48,660
This is so also there's a K pack update or is it a release?

281
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,320
I, I, I, I think it's like, uh, I've never really seen it before.

282
00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:54,560
So yeah, no, it's a first time.

283
00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:55,660
K pack is not a rapper.

284
00:13:55,780 --> 00:13:58,160
It's actually a, uh, nothing.

285
00:13:58,380 --> 00:13:58,580
No.

286
00:13:58,660 --> 00:13:58,920
Okay.

287
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,860
So K pack is a part of the build pack service.

288
00:14:02,140 --> 00:14:02,560
I see.

289
00:14:02,740 --> 00:14:03,060
I see.

290
00:14:03,060 --> 00:14:03,500
That's good.

291
00:14:03,540 --> 00:14:03,880
That's good.

292
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:05,140
It's kind of like a Tetra pack.

293
00:14:05,380 --> 00:14:08,100
Are those Tetra packs recyclable, but all the drinks come in.

294
00:14:08,660 --> 00:14:12,080
I didn't mean, I didn't mean to wrap for like a soda wrapper.

295
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:13,740
Or I meant like somebody who does rap music.

296
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:14,380
Come on.

297
00:14:14,660 --> 00:14:18,360
Oh, gosh sakes.

298
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,200
This isn't, yeah, this isn't a beer koozie.

299
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:25,540
Are you saying that Tetra pack is not a new hip hop person from like, I mean, that is pretty

300
00:14:25,540 --> 00:14:30,020
also bad-ass, but yeah, I don't think K pack and Tetra pack are going on tour.

301
00:14:30,220 --> 00:14:30,540
K pack.

302
00:14:30,660 --> 00:14:33,200
That was that movie with, uh, Kevin Spacey in it.

303
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,460
If I, if I remember, well, there's a really lot going on in K pack.

304
00:14:36,460 --> 00:14:36,940
Yeah.

305
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,300
So my understanding from reading and tell me if I was wrong is like, so if I'm wrong,

306
00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:46,880
so you got, you got kube CTL, kube cuddle speaking of, uh, what do you call the octopus,

307
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:48,620
the, uh, the cephalopods.

308
00:14:49,020 --> 00:14:53,920
And, uh, now, now that's a, that's a procedural way to command the Kubernetes cluster to do

309
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:54,980
things like a wizard.

310
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:59,180
Uh, but however, well, as we all know, there's a cycle in the world.

311
00:14:59,220 --> 00:15:01,440
You'll do, you'll do procedural script-based things.

312
00:15:01,580 --> 00:15:03,800
The industry thinks that's great for a while.

313
00:15:03,980 --> 00:15:04,780
Then it's terrible.

314
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:06,020
You got to do things declarative.

315
00:15:06,020 --> 00:15:08,100
You can't directly tell people how to do things.

316
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,700
So you got to do it in YAML or, uh, or some sort of DSL or something.

317
00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:13,820
So then, then you got your K pack thing.

318
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,780
There's a more of a declarative way to use some YAML to talk about how you want to, uh,

319
00:15:18,780 --> 00:15:22,020
orchestrate the way Kubernetes stuff is basically set up.

320
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:27,300
That stuff being, as I recall, like the, uh, the sort of like images, the container images

321
00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:31,480
that you have and kind of making sure that they, uh, they stay good and how they're set

322
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:32,200
up in the registry.

323
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,760
And then you can also access the logs of things going on there.

324
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:36,420
Uh, that's what I got.

325
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:37,120
How did I do?

326
00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:38,780
Yeah.

327
00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:41,760
I mean, K pack for some of this is just the hard part of building containers.

328
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:42,680
So yeah, I mean, you're right.

329
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,740
There's that whole set of things that people have to do in a Kubernetes cluster for, for

330
00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:47,340
build packs.

331
00:15:47,460 --> 00:15:51,280
That's always been something that was originally Heroku cloud foundry kind of took it on as

332
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:56,060
part of that to build containers, source code K pack kind of does that natively running

333
00:15:56,060 --> 00:15:58,000
in Kubernetes to generate these containers.

334
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,000
We'll wrap all that up as the pivotal build service so that you can not just build them

335
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:03,020
though, but also update them.

336
00:16:03,340 --> 00:16:07,240
That's the cool part with build packs is let's say about every seven to 10 days, we update

337
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,400
build packs instead of a developer having to now recompile, reassemble, deploy their new

338
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:12,680
stuff.

339
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:17,920
We can be automatically updating images with the new container layers that come in through

340
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:18,440
a build pack.

341
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,640
So K packs is doing some really smart work on building and then managing the containers it

342
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,140
builds, which, you know, at scale, we're talking about DevOps in the large and talk about

343
00:16:26,140 --> 00:16:31,340
automation in the large managing thousands, tens of thousands of containers, assuming you're

344
00:16:31,340 --> 00:16:34,200
just going to get upstream pushes from dev teams might be optimistic.

345
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,480
So let's maybe have different ways that we can update containers as they sit in the registry.

346
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,160
So there's even more.

347
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:45,000
There's also the, uh, the sort of backend janitorial service that makes sure everything stays clean

348
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,180
and tidy running around.

349
00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:46,460
That's right.

350
00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:47,380
Good, good.

351
00:16:47,660 --> 00:16:47,920
Okay.

352
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,560
So then there's also an update to riff the open source, like a functional serverless,

353
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,140
whatever the kids call it now programming thing for world.

354
00:16:56,500 --> 00:17:03,520
And, uh, so here, I think if I remember it's, uh, it's, it's added an abstraction layer so

355
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,240
that it's not dependent on like, uh, like K native stuff or other things anymore, but then

356
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,220
it also has like different, different deployment models, different ways of packaging thing.

357
00:17:12,220 --> 00:17:13,880
You can put like raw containers in there.

358
00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:17,700
I don't know if that's a, uh, uh, industry term rock container, but that's what I'm going

359
00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:22,380
to call it, or you can deploy it K native style, or you can do kind of more of like a, a streaming

360
00:17:22,380 --> 00:17:24,100
sort of use of containers.

361
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:27,260
And then also it'll use build packs in the cloud native build packs.

362
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,260
And, uh, I don't know that that's how do I do on that one?

363
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:31,960
That was good.

364
00:17:32,220 --> 00:17:32,520
Yeah.

365
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:33,120
So, all right.

366
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,420
Still, still a bigger update to riff.

367
00:17:36,460 --> 00:17:36,600
Yeah.

368
00:17:36,620 --> 00:17:40,360
As they kind of decouple the runtime from some of the builds and things like that.

369
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:44,180
So you can go ahead and build functions or apps or containers and then deploy them to

370
00:17:44,180 --> 00:17:49,220
different runtimes, like just a basic kind of core runtime that just runs Kubernetes, creates

371
00:17:49,220 --> 00:17:50,900
Kubernetes deployments and services.

372
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:51,500
And that's it.

373
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,620
Or you can plug in the K native runtime.

374
00:17:53,620 --> 00:17:57,460
If you want to do scale to zero sort of computing and routing with Istio as well.

375
00:17:57,580 --> 00:18:01,880
And then they're working on a streaming runtime to do real time kind of stateful stream processing.

376
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:03,320
So kind of interesting.

377
00:18:03,420 --> 00:18:05,800
This is becoming more than just a function platform.

378
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,220
It's really becoming kind of a Kubernetes native app platform or app runtime.

379
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:10,840
Very good.

380
00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:13,540
Well, good news run through there.

381
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:17,360
Rita, why don't you introduce yourself formally?

382
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:18,600
Sure.

383
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,700
Rita Minacci and I am the head of analyst relations at Pivotal.

384
00:18:24,420 --> 00:18:26,100
And you've been on a couple of times before.

385
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:26,540
I have.

386
00:18:26,980 --> 00:18:27,900
It was fun.

387
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,500
Less nervous this time than I was a couple of times.

388
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:32,840
Well, that's good.

389
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,800
It only takes a few times and then you're a pro with it.

390
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,180
No ducking to jingly or soft meditative music.

391
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,040
So we'll be fine.

392
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:48,760
So you went over a little bit about the, you know, what's going on in the analyst world about

393
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,400
DevOps and things like that.

394
00:18:50,820 --> 00:18:54,680
And, you know, another thing in the DevOps report was sort of a survey.

395
00:18:55,180 --> 00:18:59,800
I mean, I guess the whole thing is a survey, but an analysis of what people are doing as

396
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,740
far as using cloud, whether it's public or private or on-prem.

397
00:19:04,740 --> 00:19:09,520
I think one of the answers was like, I don't know, or prefer not to say, which I think was

398
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,800
kind of a funny answer for you or whatever.

399
00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:17,800
But what, you know, in general, when you look at what analysts are talking about, like what's

400
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,920
their status on cloud adoption right now?

401
00:19:21,540 --> 00:19:24,500
You know, it's growing, right?

402
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:29,420
The interesting shift that I've seen over the past couple of years actually is that they

403
00:19:29,420 --> 00:19:34,200
no longer just talk about it in quote unquote public cloud sense.

404
00:19:34,620 --> 00:19:38,140
They're seeing some growth in on-prem, right?

405
00:19:38,180 --> 00:19:38,940
Or private.

406
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:46,460
There's a really good, I mean, 451 did a two-part report that I really liked that talks

407
00:19:46,460 --> 00:19:50,840
about the growth of hybrid and also managed services.

408
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:57,060
So they're, the way 451 broke it up in their report or reports is they look at cloud as a

409
00:19:57,060 --> 00:19:57,320
whole.

410
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:05,220
So it includes not just infrastructure services, but things like managed cloud and managed or

411
00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:06,900
managed services are hosted on-prem.

412
00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:09,880
So they talk a lot about that and that, that growth.

413
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,800
There's a lot of talk about data workloads, right?

414
00:20:14,860 --> 00:20:16,320
Moving to the cloud.

415
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:22,680
So I think Gartner wrote a report that everybody really loved that talk about that growth and,

416
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,660
you know, the dominance of Microsoft and Amazon on that.

417
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:32,880
And then there's also a lot of talk about modern, like the next big, I think, push in cloud is

418
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,100
going to be modernizing core apps.

419
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:41,900
So that's something that I think Forrester called a few years ago and refreshed that report,

420
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,300
which I think we have on our website for download and you can add them to the show notes.

421
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:51,820
But that's the next big push is modernizing the, the old, if you will.

422
00:20:52,940 --> 00:20:56,180
And then, you know, they break it up, you know, there's, there's going to be more growth.

423
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:01,720
So, so core, core infrastructure services, sure, growing, but not as much as things like

424
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:09,420
database, PaaS, the, the term that everyone hates, but the PaaS services, as well as things

425
00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:15,060
like data services and modernizing, modern, modernizing new ones, which is kind of what

426
00:21:15,060 --> 00:21:15,680
I've been noticing.

427
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:21,040
So this reminds me of, I was walking the dog before this, just to add irrelevant information

428
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:22,220
to the podcast again.

429
00:21:22,780 --> 00:21:28,720
But I, you know, like you were kind of mentioning, I think, or referring to like the, the I as

430
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:29,400
magic quadrant.

431
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:34,360
And if I remember there's like five or seven, there's six, there you go.

432
00:21:34,540 --> 00:21:40,980
I got a, what's the opposite of, of an average where you get the outlier, the anyways, like

433
00:21:40,980 --> 00:21:47,760
and basically the, you know, Microsoft and Google and AWS were like way up and to the right compared

434
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:48,380
to the other ones.

435
00:21:48,380 --> 00:21:54,020
And so I was thinking kind of, kind of, uh, you know, what do you, what do you do with

436
00:21:54,020 --> 00:21:56,880
a magic quadrant when there's only six things on it?

437
00:21:57,020 --> 00:22:01,260
Like, it's sort of like, it's sort of like asking people like, do you like Pepsi or Coke?

438
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,720
And it's like, uh, uh, I only get two options.

439
00:22:05,380 --> 00:22:05,780
Right.

440
00:22:06,460 --> 00:22:10,160
So it's funny that you should, you should ask that because what Gartner has done in the

441
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:15,500
past when a market does not shift very much for several, several years in a row is they,

442
00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:17,740
they downgrade it and they turn it into a market guide.

443
00:22:18,380 --> 00:22:18,820
All right.

444
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,100
That's what happened, for example, with app servers, right?

445
00:22:21,140 --> 00:22:26,160
Because it was just web sphere, web logic, and to some degree, JBoss, right?

446
00:22:26,180 --> 00:22:28,500
Like nothing changed for several years.

447
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,540
And so they downgraded that to a market, market guide.

448
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:32,660
I see.

449
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,120
And is that more like a selection criteria than sort of like, okay.

450
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,060
Like, here's the overview of the market.

451
00:22:38,140 --> 00:22:38,740
Here's what's happening.

452
00:22:38,740 --> 00:22:42,480
And here are some vendors and, uh, you know, their shtick, if you will.

453
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,260
Here's like the capabilities they have and you can match it to your, what you're, I see.

454
00:22:46,340 --> 00:22:46,940
That makes sense.

455
00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:47,360
Okay.

456
00:22:47,660 --> 00:22:48,840
Once it stabilizes.

457
00:22:49,340 --> 00:22:50,820
Yeah, exactly.

458
00:22:50,980 --> 00:22:51,240
Exactly.

459
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:56,240
So, so use market guides for like brand new or, or, or things that are kind of on the down,

460
00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:56,480
right.

461
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,100
Or things that are stabilized, as you said.

462
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:00,040
Nice.

463
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,020
So you, uh, you've already name dropped a couple analyst firms that we work with.

464
00:23:05,020 --> 00:23:06,500
Like you said, we've talked about Forrester.

465
00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:08,000
We've talked about Gartner 451.

466
00:23:08,180 --> 00:23:11,960
So it's easy to, uh, not for you because you're always nice to the analysts, but you know,

467
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,700
it's easy for people to kind of dog analysts and, and what they're, so tell me something nice

468
00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:16,680
about each of them.

469
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,140
Like, what do you like about Gartner?

470
00:23:18,220 --> 00:23:19,160
What do you like about Forrester?

471
00:23:19,220 --> 00:23:20,080
What do you like about Redmonk?

472
00:23:20,140 --> 00:23:23,080
Give me, give me one thing that, uh, you're a fan of.

473
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,400
You know, I've got to be honest.

474
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,380
It's all about the individual analysts.

475
00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:30,940
Like we can talk, if you want me to talk about the business models, I definitely have issues

476
00:23:30,940 --> 00:23:32,480
for their sales place.

477
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:33,440
I have issues.

478
00:23:33,980 --> 00:23:38,820
Um, but it really, it's about the individual, um, um, analysts, but I will say Redmonk, what

479
00:23:38,820 --> 00:23:44,820
I love about them is they tend to see trends a little ahead of everybody else, right?

480
00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:48,900
They, they pick up on things, particularly in the developer, uh, developer space.

481
00:23:48,940 --> 00:23:52,320
I think Forrester is pretty good in that regard as well, actually, because there's been a couple

482
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:57,180
of times when, um, Forrester's called some things, you know, two or three years before,

483
00:23:57,180 --> 00:23:59,280
uh, the rest of the firms pick up on it.

484
00:23:59,380 --> 00:24:04,420
So, um, uh, I really, uh, it has to do with their business models.

485
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,880
Um, you know, Gartner is a very buttoned up organized organization.

486
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,940
They have a lot of automated systems, right.

487
00:24:10,940 --> 00:24:15,080
That you have to deal with when you're trying to engage with an analyst and you kind of have

488
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:16,320
to go through the process.

489
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:22,080
And, um, so that, that can be a bit frustrating at times because there isn't room for flexibility,

490
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:22,760
right.

491
00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:25,380
Um, whereas Forrester, I feel is much more flexible.

492
00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:27,940
So, uh, but sorry, I'm talking not about things that I like.

493
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,060
That's not what you asked.

494
00:24:29,060 --> 00:24:32,880
Well, but yeah, they're topics like when we're planning something, like what are the topics

495
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,920
you would say, like, I'm going to go ask Gartner, the folks we like at Gartner, the folks that

496
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:37,780
give us good advice.

497
00:24:37,780 --> 00:24:41,440
Like, what are there certain topic areas that you typically skew towards one or the other?

498
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,860
So yeah, look at Gartner's depth.

499
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,960
I mean, they cover topics, uh, multiple times, um, from different angles.

500
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,080
So I actually really like that.

501
00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:51,800
It can be overwhelming.

502
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,120
You and I have talked about that.

503
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:55,860
We could spend our, our week just reading Gartner research.

504
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,760
I kind of like that, you know, um, they're also consistent.

505
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,860
They use these strategic planning assumptions and they build off of,

506
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,520
those, which I think is, is good.

507
00:25:04,940 --> 00:25:07,020
Um, so that's what it is.

508
00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:13,680
Forrester, um, I, they've, in the past couple of years, they've really up-leveled their, the

509
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,780
conversation, particularly around app dev and software delivery, right?

510
00:25:18,780 --> 00:25:25,260
So, um, you know, they have a report and I think this one's on our site as well about

511
00:25:25,260 --> 00:25:31,700
why CEOs need to care about, um, app software delivery and development.

512
00:25:31,980 --> 00:25:33,060
They don't need to learn how to code.

513
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:39,860
They just need to know what's up because their, their, their thesis is that, that is your CEO's

514
00:25:39,860 --> 00:25:42,500
job depend on being good at delivering software.

515
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:48,240
So then RedMonk, you know, again, I think, you know, I, I love the way they frame things.

516
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,040
I like the language they use and they're just, you know, in general, their persona, but I

517
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,440
do see that they kind of take a more holistic picture of what's going on.

518
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,980
Um, and they cover the smaller, the smaller vendors, uh, much more deeply, I think, than

519
00:26:00,980 --> 00:26:01,880
some of the bigger firms.

520
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:02,660
So, yeah.

521
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:03,440
Yeah.

522
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,520
And sometimes you do the, uh, events for different firms.

523
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,620
We go to Forrester events and RedMonk events and you just went to the Gartner Catalyst

524
00:26:11,620 --> 00:26:12,980
event, I think down in San Diego.

525
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,760
Any, any takeaways from that?

526
00:26:14,820 --> 00:26:17,440
What kind of audience goes to an analyst event like that?

527
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:19,760
People who write checks.

528
00:26:21,540 --> 00:26:25,100
I'm still in that for one of our colleagues, really a lot of decision makers.

529
00:26:25,580 --> 00:26:28,860
Uh, the Catalyst event is special because it covers all the topics, right?

530
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:33,220
It's, it's run by the group within Gartner that's called Gartner for technology professionals.

531
00:26:33,620 --> 00:26:36,140
Catalyst was actually an event that was put on by Burton group.

532
00:26:36,260 --> 00:26:37,720
So they kept that name.

533
00:26:37,860 --> 00:26:42,260
Uh, so they cover all the things, whereas, you know, the Gartner summits are specific to

534
00:26:42,260 --> 00:26:46,540
a topic, like you'll have a security one, you have an app dev one, an infrastructure one.

535
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,760
Um, so that was really cool because there was all sorts of topics covered.

536
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:57,520
Uh, this year, um, they, there was a lot of talk about edge computing, right?

537
00:26:57,540 --> 00:26:58,820
Like cloud and edge, right?

538
00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:59,940
Like what's, that's the next thing.

539
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,640
Um, so that was really great.

540
00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:08,840
Um, there were, I mean, in terms of like just being self-serving, there was a session on

541
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,160
when to use, uh, virtual machines, containers, or serverless, which was standing room only.

542
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:18,940
So there's a lot of, uh, still a lot of interest in that and containers and things like that.

543
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:24,420
And the, the, the other topic there, uh, Catalyst, I talked to a couple, I met to a couple of

544
00:27:24,420 --> 00:27:32,220
attendees, um, who a lot of office 365 content and people like, that was another one.

545
00:27:32,220 --> 00:27:35,540
I think the office 365 sessions were, you couldn't get in.

546
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:37,080
Wow.

547
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,960
But yeah, that, that, that brings together, uh, two things.

548
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:46,480
Like one, as I was reading to the, uh, the DevOps report, I was thinking like, um, and you

549
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,760
know, I mean, this, it's a good joke opportunity for my favorite part of the IT world.

550
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,140
It's like, this doesn't seem to be speaking to, uh, you know, desktop management at all.

551
00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,140
Uh, it's, it's obviously all about application development and, and to the point of like,

552
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,760
you know, office 365, like, I don't think the DevOps report has much to say about like, uh,

553
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,920
you know, if you should have SAS email or not, I think that's probably assumed, but like,

554
00:28:09,140 --> 00:28:16,160
uh, I, I get, I get by selective bias on my own exposed to mostly the application development

555
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,120
world of, of analyst stuff.

556
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:22,840
But like, how, how would you chunk out like all the parts of IT that they pay attention

557
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:23,160
to?

558
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,720
Like, for example, if, if I were to think about all the Forrester stuff that I read,

559
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,200
like they have a very heavy, what do they call it?

560
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:30,760
CX.

561
00:28:31,020 --> 00:28:35,580
They're, they're nicely, there's a whole sort of like, it's, there's probably internally

562
00:28:35,580 --> 00:28:38,880
sort of like three to five pillars of strategic focus or something.

563
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,940
And it seems like one of the pillars is, uh, customer experience, which sort of, I'm reverse

564
00:28:43,940 --> 00:28:48,480
engineering this, like, you know, subdivides into like, uh, marketing stuff through Instagram

565
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,200
and then like also like, uh, actual application development stuff.

566
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,880
Um, but there must be somewhere that someone's doing desktop management, right?

567
00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:03,620
If people still do that in analyst land, you know, honestly that they, they, they probably

568
00:29:03,620 --> 00:29:08,480
do, uh, I would say Gartner, but I don't, that research doesn't pop up on my, on my radar

569
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:13,580
cause it's not on my radar, but I would say, uh, Gartner covers all the things.

570
00:29:13,580 --> 00:29:18,760
Um, and, and to your point about Forrester, they're very heavily focused on, on customer

571
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:19,660
experience, right?

572
00:29:19,660 --> 00:29:26,220
I mean, even like they have, their research theme is really all about, um, I think attracting,

573
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:31,000
retaining and delighting customers, whether you're writing about app dev, like if you read

574
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,160
a report about application development and delivery or software development delivery, there will

575
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:43,460
be, uh, at least one point in there about how that's important for attracting, retaining

576
00:29:43,460 --> 00:29:45,280
and delighting customers.

577
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,280
So they're really big on that.

578
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,440
And, uh, and they're known for, for being pretty deep on that topic.

579
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:51,500
Yeah.

580
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,780
You know, I, I, I, I don't know.

581
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,220
Sometimes I find myself being an apologist for the old, uh, the old bimodal thing.

582
00:29:58,220 --> 00:30:01,860
And I, and I think it's usually what I say is it's about this topic where it's like, well,

583
00:30:01,860 --> 00:30:04,800
if you're, if you're like a CIO or someone, right?

584
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,560
Like, and I'll use for the third or fourth time, my favorite thing, there's this fork in

585
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,100
the road where you're like desktop management versus custom application development.

586
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:16,600
And I feel like a lot of the bimodal stuff is basically like about that fork.

587
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,940
And it's sort of like all this, like, if you're going to be talking about like continuous

588
00:30:20,940 --> 00:30:26,060
integration and delivery, uh, like, you know, there's a, some point of it that you got to

589
00:30:26,060 --> 00:30:29,700
divide up the portfolio and there's just different ways about knowing about things.

590
00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:34,400
But, but it seems like the, uh, the tragedy, uh, well, and also like over the, you know,

591
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,440
the three or four years that was happening, uh, Gardner's explanation of that evolved a

592
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,560
lot, which gets to the other point is like all their stuff would cost thousands of dollars

593
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:43,000
to read.

594
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,400
So I'm pretty sure not that many people who didn't like it read it, which, which is always,

595
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,700
always unfortunate, uh, as, as a way of self-defending yourself against things.

596
00:30:53,620 --> 00:30:54,060
Yeah.

597
00:30:54,060 --> 00:30:55,200
I don't really have a question there.

598
00:30:57,260 --> 00:31:03,360
I would, uh, you make me think we do, uh, switching gears on briefings and talking to

599
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:03,760
analysts.

600
00:31:03,900 --> 00:31:05,480
You've, uh, you've been in this game for a while.

601
00:31:05,540 --> 00:31:07,880
You're a veteran of the analyst game.

602
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,460
What's the, uh, without naming names, cause it's probably involved me.

603
00:31:10,540 --> 00:31:14,820
What was the worst briefing you've been part of and like, why, like what makes a bad briefing?

604
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:24,560
You know, a bad briefing is when there's no, when someone's reading, when you can tell someone's

605
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,520
reading, it drives me nuts, not just in briefings, but even when I see people presenting, when

606
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,680
they read slides, those are, that's the worst.

607
00:31:31,940 --> 00:31:36,320
Or when they start off like, Hey, let me tell you about the market or let me tell you the

608
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:36,740
trends.

609
00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:38,640
You know, I always tell people, this is their job.

610
00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:39,240
They're analysts.

611
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,200
Don't tell them about the industry.

612
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,580
So that always makes me cringe a little bit.

613
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,500
Um, so I try and make sure upfront people don't do that.

614
00:31:47,860 --> 00:31:52,840
Um, I, I will say it's, it's, but actually the, the, the worst experience I've ever had

615
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,600
on an analyst call, this was years ago, back when I was at Sun Microsystems and I'm not

616
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,760
going to name any names, but I'll just say that by the end of the call, I said to myself,

617
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:06,800
Hmm, perhaps putting a lawyer and an analyst on a call together was not the best idea.

618
00:32:08,180 --> 00:32:08,620
Right.

619
00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:13,700
Um, these are two groups of professionals who kind of like to argue.

620
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:21,500
So, um, you know, and it might've been, you know, a productive argument, but, uh, as my

621
00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:24,860
personality is, I don't like to, I like to see people smiling and nodding at each other.

622
00:32:24,860 --> 00:32:25,120
Right.

623
00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:27,040
Just the nature of what I do.

624
00:32:27,180 --> 00:32:32,600
So that was really, uh, it was anxiety inducing, uh, to 11 really.

625
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,540
So that's kind of something I remember.

626
00:32:34,540 --> 00:32:38,640
But yeah, I think, I think back to your, back to your question, what makes it bad, makes

627
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:44,500
it bad is, is not being able to read where the people want to get going, um, where the

628
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:47,040
analysts want to dig in and being standoffish.

629
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,360
I know I always say there's always an opportunity to talk more.

630
00:32:49,420 --> 00:32:52,980
So if an analyst wants to go deep on something you said and you weren't planning on it, just

631
00:32:52,980 --> 00:32:53,440
do it.

632
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,880
And we can follow up and finish up the rest later.

633
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,100
There isn't a rush here, you know, and that ties to, you've heard me say this about my

634
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:04,520
philosophy on, um, what we do in analyst relations, which is to me, it continues.

635
00:33:04,540 --> 00:33:09,080
You know, I like to say that I've been having a four-year conversation with our analysts.

636
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,440
And one thing we do during, I mean, for people who aren't, haven't been part of an analyst

637
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:19,400
briefing before, typically it's, you know, potentially us presenting to the analyst about some sort

638
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,360
of announcement or initiative or whatever.

639
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,660
What's, since most analysts, you correct me if I'm wrong, aren't always interested in

640
00:33:24,660 --> 00:33:25,480
breaking news.

641
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,300
Like they're not breaking news on the Gartner site or Forrester site.

642
00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:30,440
So it's not about just giving them the press release.

643
00:33:30,540 --> 00:33:33,480
You're, what's the point in reality of that briefing?

644
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,260
Is it to give them different context or actually have a two-way conversation?

645
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,700
What's, what's the point of a vendor briefing an analyst firm?

646
00:33:41,660 --> 00:33:46,660
So in general, it's for them to, to at least to get a sense of where you're going or where

647
00:33:46,660 --> 00:33:47,040
you're headed.

648
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:47,320
Right.

649
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,240
So I like to like, I don't, by the time your announcement is made, the analyst should know

650
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,700
that it was coming because you've been talking to them about it.

651
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,340
That's how I like to think about it.

652
00:33:56,540 --> 00:34:02,420
Um, if you do a post announcement briefing, it's to add more specifics and details because

653
00:34:02,420 --> 00:34:06,860
they're going to get called by end users to get asked about this.

654
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:07,840
What does this announcement mean?

655
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,880
Uh, what, what is, um, can you break it down for me?

656
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,360
And so I want to arm them with the, with the answers, right?

657
00:34:15,380 --> 00:34:16,300
With, with the knowledge.

658
00:34:16,300 --> 00:34:19,620
So that's, that's what we do with the post, post announcement briefings.

659
00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:24,660
But like I said, they should know what's coming down, uh, before it goes, goes down.

660
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:25,440
Yep.

661
00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:30,980
So, so what, what, uh, you know, I always, I always wondered this way back when, when I

662
00:34:30,980 --> 00:34:35,280
was an analyst, uh, but like, what, what are the questions analysts are supposed to ask?

663
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:38,440
Hmm.

664
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:40,480
Supposed to ask it.

665
00:34:40,580 --> 00:34:45,220
Well, they, they, they need to be looking at it from the lens of their end user clients.

666
00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:48,560
So what does it mean for the customer?

667
00:34:48,580 --> 00:34:51,540
Is this going to, if they upgrade to this, what's going to break?

668
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:52,500
What's still going to work?

669
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,220
How much is it like the previous version like that?

670
00:34:56,300 --> 00:34:58,240
What, what are the dependencies they need to consider?

671
00:34:58,980 --> 00:35:02,660
Uh, those are the, the, the, the, I think that's number one, they need to have that perspective.

672
00:35:02,660 --> 00:35:04,820
And then the second will be more of the industry perspective.

673
00:35:04,820 --> 00:35:08,880
Like looking at it from what is this, is this, is this on par with what they're seeing other

674
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:14,900
vendors are doing or adoption trends or, or such is this, are, are you, are you kind

675
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:19,060
of, you know, not only towing the line, but are you, are you heading in the right direction?

676
00:35:19,060 --> 00:35:23,080
Does this make sense from what they're seeing, uh, where are they seeing the market going

677
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:24,640
or are people doing so?

678
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:25,440
Yeah.

679
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,580
I remember, I remember, uh, when I was at four or five, one research, they had a, um, they

680
00:35:29,580 --> 00:35:34,920
had a very, uh, trying to be prescriptive list of questions that I think, um, I forget

681
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,700
there was someone who, who, who wrote, who originated it.

682
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:41,460
But anyways, the, the, the one takeaway that I had from there that was always good that

683
00:35:41,460 --> 00:35:45,040
I guess I had learned when I was doing MNA at Dell was like, you always want to have,

684
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,260
uh, sort of like momentum figures, like, you know, depending on who you talk to, there's

685
00:35:50,260 --> 00:35:54,900
all sorts of numbers, uh, that they tell you are not like revenue or number of customers

686
00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:57,120
or percent increase or downloads or whatever.

687
00:35:57,340 --> 00:36:01,980
But it's always good to get, uh, a running thing of like year over year numbers, at least

688
00:36:01,980 --> 00:36:02,920
one year to another.

689
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,660
And like, it, that does, that does seem like, uh, to your point, right?

690
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,100
Like, especially if you're talking with, uh, among many other things, if you're talking

691
00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:15,080
with end users, which is to say people who are using and buying the stuff that vendors,

692
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,120
uh, and open source people are providing, uh, like one thing they want to know is like,

693
00:36:19,220 --> 00:36:22,140
well, is this working right?

694
00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:25,700
Like are other people using it and how's the acceptance of it going?

695
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:30,080
So, uh, that always seems like something useful to, uh, to go over.

696
00:36:30,460 --> 00:36:31,640
That's actually a really good point.

697
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,920
Cause then they can also assess out like, does that, how you're doing vis-a-vis, you

698
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,100
know, your competitors and again, other, other market factors.

699
00:36:39,100 --> 00:36:41,860
So, and then they also have examples, right?

700
00:36:41,860 --> 00:36:48,160
So if a, if a client or an investor asks things like, well, how many other customers do they

701
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:48,380
have?

702
00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:51,040
Or how many customers like me do they have?

703
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:52,360
They'll have that answer.

704
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:58,140
So, and, and then what, like, like, uh, speaking of end users, like I know what it's

705
00:36:58,140 --> 00:37:03,280
like to, uh, work with, engage whatnot with analyst people, but like, what's it look like

706
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:04,600
from an end user perspective?

707
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:10,740
Like, do they have a different business model or is it still like just seats and like rated

708
00:37:10,740 --> 00:37:15,300
things or, or do they, I guess it all depends on the size of the organization, but what's

709
00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:16,020
it like there?

710
00:37:16,820 --> 00:37:21,780
So they do have to do, you know, they ask for inquiries the same way that a vendor would

711
00:37:21,780 --> 00:37:28,940
or any client would, but they offer, I think they configure the, the, uh, the accounts differently.

712
00:37:28,940 --> 00:37:35,000
Like, I think they, it's more team based, for example, um, as opposed to individual seats.

713
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,940
And I think that, like, I mean, this is at least for Gartner, um, and I, they're trying

714
00:37:38,940 --> 00:37:41,840
to move in that direction actually across the board with their services.

715
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:47,100
So you can't just buy, like, I just want one seat, you know, um, and have these, have,

716
00:37:47,180 --> 00:37:48,580
have work group seats underneath it.

717
00:37:48,580 --> 00:37:50,260
But they're really looking at team structures.

718
00:37:50,260 --> 00:37:53,520
Like, oh, if you go into this service, you have to buy at least three seats and this is

719
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,140
the makeup, which is one of the things that, uh, sort of annoys me.

720
00:37:57,140 --> 00:38:02,540
I wish that, uh, especially companies that offer many different services, right.

721
00:38:02,540 --> 00:38:07,040
For like that, like, for example, Gartner has like, you know, for tech marketing teams

722
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:13,540
or product managers or GMs, um, if they were, I wish they had a lot more of a bespoke type

723
00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:15,640
of, uh, account configuration, if you will.

724
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:16,840
Yeah.

725
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,640
I'm pretty strict about the categorization of stuff.

726
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:19,880
Right.

727
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:20,840
That's interesting.

728
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,580
Like it's almost, it's almost as if like, uh, you're reading some newspaper and it's like

729
00:38:25,580 --> 00:38:30,980
you had to subscribe to the lifestyle section in the comics, but not the U S political nudes.

730
00:38:30,980 --> 00:38:33,240
Like you pick all these different, uh, yeah.

731
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:39,080
Um, but the other thing for, the other thing for end users is they offer additional services

732
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,520
where they will connect you with some of your, again, depending on how much you pay them,

733
00:38:42,620 --> 00:38:43,740
connect you with your peers.

734
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,700
Um, and, and those folks will go and do some research for you and come back and give you

735
00:38:48,700 --> 00:38:54,400
more feedback or even give you questions, tell you what questions to ask, uh, the analysts.

736
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,140
So they have varying levels of access, but yeah, in terms of, you know, how do you, how do you

737
00:38:59,140 --> 00:39:00,140
connect with an analyst?

738
00:39:00,580 --> 00:39:01,720
It's, it's similar.

739
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,940
Uh, you go through the, at least the inquiry process is similar.

740
00:39:06,180 --> 00:39:10,900
You, uh, you ask, you know, so one of the things that, that I think is, is, is important

741
00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:15,240
is knowing the analyst you want to talk to, right?

742
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:21,920
Cause if you put in a request and say, I want to talk about paths, PA, you know, paths,

743
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,100
they're just going to go through the system and they'll find somebody who covers that or

744
00:39:25,100 --> 00:39:27,300
who has, um, who has availability.

745
00:39:27,900 --> 00:39:34,660
But if you know that there is an analyst that you trust or an analyst that is, uh, very up

746
00:39:34,660 --> 00:39:38,180
to speed on a particular vendor you're interested in, I would ask by name.

747
00:39:38,860 --> 00:39:41,340
Um, it's very rare that I just put in a random question.

748
00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:44,140
If it is, it's because it's an area that I don't know or a topic I don't know about.

749
00:39:44,140 --> 00:39:49,940
And I haven't been able to figure out by looking who covers it, um, who that analyst is.

750
00:39:50,540 --> 00:39:55,720
So, um, that's, that's kind of one thing that I think, I'm not sure if it gets, if it gets

751
00:39:55,720 --> 00:40:00,560
lost with the end users or not, if they have their go-to analyst that they go to, but if

752
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,640
I were an end user, I'd try and figure out who the analyst that's most informed about the

753
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,880
question and ask for that analyst by name.

754
00:40:06,940 --> 00:40:09,260
Otherwise you're just going to go through the system and you don't know who you're going

755
00:40:09,260 --> 00:40:09,560
to get.

756
00:40:09,660 --> 00:40:12,480
Next thing you know, you're talking to some, someone about desktop management.

757
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:12,900
Exactly.

758
00:40:13,780 --> 00:40:14,700
Office 365.

759
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,480
So, so that I have, I have two more questions, just one brief one, but then.

760
00:40:20,540 --> 00:40:25,520
Then do, uh, to do a little, a little thinking on, on your feet or, or in your chair as it

761
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:25,720
were.

762
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:31,020
So if we were to, if we were to look at like, let's say the past three to four years of like

763
00:40:31,020 --> 00:40:36,060
Kubernetes, like, what do you, what do you think the role of analyst has been in like

764
00:40:36,060 --> 00:40:37,220
covering shaping?

765
00:40:37,220 --> 00:40:42,540
And then like, uh, finally, like, uh, to put it in the passive voice, the crowning of

766
00:40:42,540 --> 00:40:46,580
Kubernetes, like, how did they, how did they lace into that from the beginning to the

767
00:40:46,580 --> 00:40:47,160
present day?

768
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:49,240
Hmm.

769
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:55,560
I think they, well, I think they were hot on containers from the get go because they

770
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,880
didn't want to miss on a hot trend.

771
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,380
So they started off, you know, and it was all about Docker, as we all know.

772
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:07,160
Um, and Kubernetes, the way, the way they've arrived, where they've arrived today is that

773
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,640
it's still difficult, right?

774
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:14,200
Despite the fact that, uh, all the analysts are like, Kubernetes is the way to go.

775
00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:15,200
Everyone's hot on Kubernetes.

776
00:41:15,420 --> 00:41:20,120
They tend to, you know, they, they fall short from saying like, you should do this.

777
00:41:20,180 --> 00:41:27,560
They, they, they try and place it as like, this is where all the momentum is, um, to, to

778
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,040
rather than saying, this is what you should do.

779
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,640
Because what they're seeing is people are, you know, having some, some problems despite

780
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,440
the fact, you know, but they still say Kubernetes one.

781
00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:36,860
I think one of the, I can't remember which firm it was.

782
00:41:36,860 --> 00:41:39,500
I read a, read a report where they're like, that's it.

783
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,140
It's Kubernetes is where it's at, right?

784
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,000
That's where you're going.

785
00:41:43,620 --> 00:41:45,100
Um, that's what you're using.

786
00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:47,640
And that's the, that's the answer.

787
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,280
But like, but what are you asking?

788
00:41:49,340 --> 00:41:53,760
I think Fint and Ryan, a catalyst had a session that said, okay, if Kubernetes is the answer,

789
00:41:54,060 --> 00:41:55,600
what, what questions are you asking?

790
00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:01,500
So, um, you know, they, they, you know, I think they sort of hedged their bed, their

791
00:42:01,500 --> 00:42:03,000
bets, how they got to Kubernetes.

792
00:42:03,180 --> 00:42:05,620
I mean, it's been a whirlwind.

793
00:42:05,660 --> 00:42:06,420
I got to be honest.

794
00:42:06,860 --> 00:42:13,460
Um, uh, and how they got to Kubernetes, but it's been, been watching the, them cover containers

795
00:42:13,460 --> 00:42:14,000
for a while.

796
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,920
And it's all driven by, you know, all the questions that they get.

797
00:42:17,060 --> 00:42:21,540
So, uh, my perspective is they're getting a lot of questions from end users about the

798
00:42:21,540 --> 00:42:21,720
stuff.

799
00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:23,500
So they've had to figure it out quickly.

800
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,800
Um, and it's, it's complicated.

801
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,960
So, um, they're, yeah, they're using, they're using, you know, information from vendors and

802
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,880
information from end users to form their opinions and their perspective.

803
00:42:35,260 --> 00:42:36,140
I don't know if I answered your question.

804
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:37,000
No, no, no.

805
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,420
I think, I think that matches exactly what I would think.

806
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,700
And, and like, similarly, I didn't always have access to all of this stuff, but like back

807
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:49,760
in the, in the, in the rise of DevOps, like, I think it was pretty similar where, uh, you

808
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:55,320
know, in, in both cases there, there's a lot of, uh, footnotes in, in analyst reports

809
00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:02,160
that like link to like, uh, you know, um, talks from the usual suspects, lots of Netflix commentary

810
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:02,920
and things like that.

811
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,980
But then to your point of like who the huge customer, uh, uh, the, the end user customer

812
00:43:07,980 --> 00:43:10,300
base is as people who are making conservative decisions.

813
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:14,820
So that what they want to know a significant amount of people want to know if it's a safe

814
00:43:14,820 --> 00:43:15,220
choice.

815
00:43:15,460 --> 00:43:20,380
So you kind of like have that, uh, as to use the word again, that conservative tracking of

816
00:43:20,380 --> 00:43:25,680
how this technology is doing, but more importantly, how it's going to work out for you.

817
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:26,760
Right.

818
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,900
And no, no one, no one really likes to be told that they're, uh, average.

819
00:43:31,380 --> 00:43:35,740
Uh, but I think, I think more importantly, it might to, to use a bit of pivotal thinking

820
00:43:35,740 --> 00:43:39,140
it might be like, well, is this something you want to specialize in?

821
00:43:39,140 --> 00:43:43,720
Like, do you want to use an experimental Scotch tape or just a regular Scotch tape?

822
00:43:43,940 --> 00:43:44,060
Right.

823
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:50,180
Uh, so, you know, it all depends on the profile of people, but it does seem to, uh, this, they're

824
00:43:50,180 --> 00:43:55,680
pretty good at like tracking that kind of, uh, when, when is it across the chasm of, of

825
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,240
safety usedness to excellently formulate a phrase?

826
00:43:59,620 --> 00:43:59,820
Yeah.

827
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,740
Well, they're, you know, it's like it's container management is, uh, at the peak of inflated,

828
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,300
um, uh, I forget the term that they use.

829
00:44:07,740 --> 00:44:08,360
Expectations, right?

830
00:44:08,540 --> 00:44:09,540
Yeah, exactly.

831
00:44:09,740 --> 00:44:13,120
So, so they get it, you know, they know that everyone's asking about it, but they, and they

832
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:19,040
will say in the research, um, whether it's Forrester or Gartner, that this is still complicated

833
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:19,620
stuff.

834
00:44:20,340 --> 00:44:21,840
Um, but it's getting easier.

835
00:44:22,380 --> 00:44:25,440
Um, but, and they're also pretty, pretty adamant.

836
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,720
That you shouldn't try and do it yourself, right?

837
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,020
There, you know, that if you, you need help.

838
00:44:32,460 --> 00:44:33,160
Right, right.

839
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:38,840
So, so my last, my last question to, to speaking of, of, to make, to make a, uh, way too inside

840
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:39,400
analyst joke.

841
00:44:39,460 --> 00:44:43,680
Let's, I'm going to try to do a Gartner L2 style of, of chart and analysis here.

842
00:44:43,940 --> 00:44:50,080
And that is, so if we were to make a, uh, uh, an animated donut chart and donut, cause I

843
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,360
don't, you know, I don't never know why I use a donut chart instead of a pie chart, cause

844
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,640
it just looks cool to have a hole in the middle.

845
00:44:55,740 --> 00:44:56,480
I'm not really sure.

846
00:44:56,620 --> 00:44:57,340
I prefer donuts.

847
00:44:57,740 --> 00:44:57,980
Yeah.

848
00:44:58,060 --> 00:44:58,680
See, yeah.

849
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,380
I guess maybe you could put the text on the inside so you could better like, you know,

850
00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:08,320
uh, space out the labels, but, so let's say we had an animated donut chart, uh, and, and

851
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:13,880
what we were tracking was the momentum, the change of analysts wearing sports jackets.

852
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,800
Like what, what, what would it look like now?

853
00:45:16,900 --> 00:45:22,260
Is it, is it, has it been shrinking or we, are we at like a 60% sports jackets or 30%?

854
00:45:22,340 --> 00:45:23,800
What do you think the splits looking like?

855
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,020
Oh, I think it's 60.

856
00:45:26,140 --> 00:45:29,260
Well, at Gartner conferences, I believe they have to wear them.

857
00:45:29,420 --> 00:45:33,800
So it's, uh, it's, uh, let's do it outside when they're out in public.

858
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,340
It's like 60%, but in, if you're coming and having a meeting with them, at least with

859
00:45:38,340 --> 00:45:42,200
the vendors, I think they're probably less formal with the vendors than they are with

860
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,140
the end users, but in public.

861
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:45,520
I'd say 60%.

862
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:46,160
Wow.

863
00:45:46,180 --> 00:45:47,460
That's higher than I would expect.

864
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,420
Maybe I'm, I'm, I'm going to the wrong sample set, but yeah, back, back in my day, as it

865
00:45:52,420 --> 00:45:53,860
were, it was, it was quite high.

866
00:45:54,260 --> 00:45:58,720
Uh, so, uh, I, I remember that was a formative moment in my little analyst life as I was in

867
00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:03,540
an elevator and there was, there was an analyst in a dark Navy blue sports jacket with the gold

868
00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:05,200
buttons, you know, the full, the full thing.

869
00:46:05,780 --> 00:46:10,240
And, uh, I was talking with them and I asked what they did and they said they were a storage

870
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:12,720
analyst and I bet you are.

871
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:13,840
Yeah.

872
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,140
I mean, it's trending downwards for sure.

873
00:46:16,300 --> 00:46:16,540
Yeah.

874
00:46:16,620 --> 00:46:16,840
Right.

875
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,140
It's trending downwards for sure.

876
00:46:18,220 --> 00:46:23,680
But it's, uh, you know, like I said, in public, you know, they have to wear slacks.

877
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:24,800
All right.

878
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:25,240
All right.

879
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,480
Well, we'll, uh, next time we run into a Gartner L2 analyst, I'll have to take note

880
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:30,380
of their attire.

881
00:46:30,700 --> 00:46:31,880
See, see what's going on there.

882
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:32,620
All right.

883
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,120
Well, uh, well, thanks for being honest.

884
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:39,020
Is there, is there any, any, uh, any like last, last analyst things, advice or commentary

885
00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:40,600
you'd throw out before we wrap up?

886
00:46:42,260 --> 00:46:43,100
That's, that's it.

887
00:46:43,140 --> 00:46:49,040
I don't know if you guys have any other questions, but, um, you know, that's, it's been fun.

888
00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:50,700
You know, it's, it's a, it's a fun, it's fun.

889
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,460
What we do is I enjoy it very much because it's bringing people together.

890
00:46:54,740 --> 00:47:01,600
Um, I will say one of the things that I'm really, uh, liking seeing is, there's a lot

891
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:10,780
more, uh, content and reports that's advising C-level folks, not just C-level folks, even

892
00:47:10,780 --> 00:47:13,200
I and O folks and CISOs and things like that.

893
00:47:13,220 --> 00:47:20,340
And how to talk business speak, if you will, how to communicate what they do in a way that

894
00:47:20,340 --> 00:47:24,320
is compelling or that makes sense for their, you know, quote unquote line of business.

895
00:47:24,740 --> 00:47:25,220
Partners.

896
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:26,760
Yeah, that's a good point.

897
00:47:27,140 --> 00:47:27,340
Yeah.

898
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:27,900
Right.

899
00:47:27,940 --> 00:47:31,600
You know, we're talking earlier about what, what, what looking at, like, how do you, how

900
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:36,000
do you, how to, how do you put what you do in perspective of the business goals?

901
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:41,220
Um, and there's a lot more research or reports on that, which I'm really enjoying reading.

902
00:47:41,220 --> 00:47:46,280
I have one that's actually about how to talk about information security and in terms of business

903
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:46,640
value.

904
00:47:47,020 --> 00:47:48,500
So, yeah, that is good.

905
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:53,240
That's probably a good keyword to search for a phrase business value and finds interesting things.

906
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,320
And then, I mean, that's kind of related to the last thing I was going to add is like,

907
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:01,060
uh, there's actually, you know, for, for the, uh, the paywalls and stuff, which, you know,

908
00:48:01,300 --> 00:48:02,180
people got to make money.

909
00:48:02,180 --> 00:48:02,820
So that's fine.

910
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,860
No problem there, but there actually are, as we talked, mentioned, there's actually a lot

911
00:48:06,860 --> 00:48:10,180
of analyst blogs that are, uh, of course free to read.

912
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,660
And, uh, and also if you, if you're very, if you're interested, there's a lot of press

913
00:48:14,660 --> 00:48:18,900
releases, particularly from like an IDC, they actually jam a lot of information in those

914
00:48:18,900 --> 00:48:19,480
press releases.

915
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,520
So if you've got yourself an RSS reader or something, it's pretty easy to set yourself

916
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,900
up with a steady stream of free analyst stuff.

917
00:48:27,300 --> 00:48:31,840
You know, or if you have a vendor like, like Pivotal, you know, look at the analyst, um,

918
00:48:31,900 --> 00:48:33,560
analyst report section on our website.

919
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,680
There's a, there's a ton of, you know, I like to get distribution rights for reports that

920
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:38,660
are informational.

921
00:48:38,740 --> 00:48:40,620
So they don't just talk about us.

922
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:41,900
They talk about trends.

923
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:43,640
So check out our, check out the.

924
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:44,560
It's true.

925
00:48:44,660 --> 00:48:49,100
I think, I think, I think because of you, us, uh, we put out a lot of stuff and then

926
00:48:49,100 --> 00:48:54,140
I noticed Salesforce puts out a lot of things and, uh, and also, you know, the usual other

927
00:48:54,140 --> 00:48:58,260
big vendors, but if you don't have an account, it's easy to get access to stuff if you're

928
00:48:58,260 --> 00:48:58,500
interested.

929
00:48:59,280 --> 00:48:59,480
Yeah.

930
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:00,300
All right.

931
00:49:00,340 --> 00:49:05,380
Well, uh, as mentioned earlier, we have a SpringOne platform coming up in Austin, October

932
00:49:05,380 --> 00:49:06,300
7th and 9th.

933
00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:11,600
Uh, I think there's like a $200 code that I obviously don't have memorized.

934
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,920
I'll put it in the show notes, uh, if you want to get a discount for it.

935
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,360
If you go over to, uh, usually about every Thursday, if I remember to do it on time, I

936
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,100
post the show notes at pivotal.io slash podcast.

937
00:49:22,340 --> 00:49:24,600
And as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations.

938
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:31,020
Uh, you can subscribe to it by just searching for Pivotal Conversations, wherever you get podcast

939
00:49:31,020 --> 00:49:38,080
things, or if you're really, uh, excited about the worldwide web and, uh, universal resource

940
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:38,640
locators.

941
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:39,980
Is that what URL stands for?

942
00:49:40,020 --> 00:49:40,620
I always forget.

943
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,360
Anyhow, you can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations.

944
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,300
And with that, we'll see everyone next time.

945
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:47,100
Bye-bye.

946
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:55,460
Well, we are, I'm going to start over.