1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,240 Hey there, this is another interview from Pivotal Paris. And just to remind you, if you're interested 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:10,900 in these kind of topics and things like Spring and DevOps and kind of leading change in an 3 00:00:10,900 --> 00:00:15,600 organization, digital transformation, if you will, you should come to our annual conference Spring 4 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:20,860 One Platform. It'll be in Austin, my hometown, October 7th and 10th. That's a great time of 5 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:27,080 year to come to Austin, not too hot. And if you register before August 20th, you'll get $200 off. 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,520 So go over to springoneplatform.io. Chances are, when you hear this, there'll be a whole bunch of 7 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,280 sessions that have been accepted and listed. So you can get a sense of what it looks like. 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:42,300 And with that, enjoy the interview. If someone like myself or someone else was coming to Paris, 9 00:00:42,820 --> 00:00:46,680 like what would, what would you recommend they do? That's just like, you know, not necessarily a 10 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,320 touristy thing, but they just like, I don't know, I got, I got a couple hours to kill. What's something 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:58,320 relaxing and nice to do? There's some very nice parks. So yeah, go, go to the park next to the Louvre, 12 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,560 actually. That, that's pretty cool. Otherwise, a Jardin du Luxembourg is pretty nice as well. 13 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:11,600 Or if you want a bit more hipster type thing, go to the Canal Saint-Martin site. So Canal Saint-Martin, 14 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,960 that will be the super hipster place. And otherwise you have the riverbanks of the sand that are pretty 15 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:21,760 cool as well with lots of open terrace music and so on. Yeah. It's kind of an outdoor sort of thing. 16 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,640 Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, why don't you introduce yourself? 17 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:32,000 So I'm Regis Aleg. I work for Accenture while I'm a director in the Intelligent Engineering Services 18 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,760 group, which is basically the group we've built around the new type of custom development. So it 19 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:43,120 covers custom, IGL, DevOps, and everything that is cloud native as well. Right, right. And we were 20 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:48,720 talking earlier in the day about how, well, there's two things. One, this notion of people call it 21 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:54,880 various things like a lab or, but the organization they set up that's, to be overly vague, the new 22 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:00,400 way of doing software, of doing innovation. And you actually have been working on that kind of thing 23 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,840 for a while. Absolutely. So what do you call that kind of thing? What's the word, the phrase you like? 24 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:13,040 So the name we call it in Accenture Technologies is New Tech Foundries. And the idea behind that is 25 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:18,000 it's because it can deliver many, many types of actual technology artifacts. You can deliver 26 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:24,000 applications with them, but sometimes clients will want them to build, visualize this in use case on 27 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:29,120 top of a data lake. So it's, so the tape factory comes sometime as well. We like to come. Because 28 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:35,040 it's not just a stamp. It actually makes things. Yes, it makes things. And so, so what is that? Like, 29 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:41,760 what is a foundry? What does it look like? So it's the, it's the tool that you can use to help on the 30 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:47,760 digital transformation of a group to actually show an example on how you build things in a 31 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:53,680 digital native way. Ah, right, right. So very often our clients have spent lots of energy and time 32 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:59,680 trying to transform the organization from within. So deploying agile transformation initiatives or 33 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:04,800 development transformation initiatives or building cloud capabilities. But they don't 34 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:11,680 reach this dream of a continuous delivery ID to a real product with actual users in less than three 35 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:18,160 months, et cetera. And sometimes the best way of doing that is actually to create a new organization 36 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:24,240 on the side and build all of the best of breed, both from a technology perspective, but also from an 37 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,080 organizational and culture perspective. Yeah. I mean, that's definitely what I see at 38 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:35,280 most of the successful large organizations I talk with is they just, I always think of it as not always, 39 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,480 but I think of it as the problem with successful organizations is they're immutable. Like you can't 40 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,920 really change them. And so if you do want to change them, it's, it's a lot harder to actually change 41 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:51,680 the organization than it is to just like start a new one. Absolutely. And then I tend to see that over 42 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:57,600 and over again. So I think like in your experience, like what, I mean, it was difficult for the organization 43 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:03,280 to change in the first place. Yeah. And so like, what have you learned about how you get them to 44 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,440 actually change? I mean, you know, you can set up a new organization, but you want to make sure you 45 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:13,280 don't have all the same cultures and processes in place. So actually, so one of the things actually, 46 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,720 you want the culture in that new organization to be new. So one of the things that you cannot import 47 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,360 everybody from your existing organization into that, because then people will just get back to their 48 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:29,040 whole habits. So actually you need very significant diversity when you incubate the thing. Yeah. And 49 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,040 that's why actually they're quite cool stuff to build with a partner because you have at certain 50 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:38,240 moments, lots of new people going into that. And you have a group of people that don't know each 51 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:43,040 other that are very interested in building something new. Oh, right, right. So they have no expectations 52 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:48,720 about what they should be doing. Or I should say how they should be doing it, right? Like they wouldn't 53 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,640 say like, Oh, we've always done things this way. And like, you know, this is the only good way to 54 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,200 do things. So they're more, uh, I was going to say malleable. They're more open to new ideas. 55 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:02,400 Yeah. And especially because even if there's a template into how such organization should work. 56 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:07,760 So like we have a pretty clear, uh, let's say coverage of the functions that should happen within 57 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:13,040 one of those foundry. So typically there's, there will be something where you identify the good 58 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:18,160 products for that type of development. You will need to scope them. So what happens when the guy 59 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:23,680 with the business ID meets up with the delivery team, they decide in two weeks what they should be 60 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,400 doing from a technical perspective, roadmap perspective, functional perspective, et cetera. 61 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:34,640 Then there's a delivery phase where they'll iterate over five or eight, two weeks prints to actually 62 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,680 build the product. And then there's a transfer phase, which is how do you actually give that product 63 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:45,440 back into the existing organization? And that's where the catalyst aspect of the foundry works. 64 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:51,760 When you teach the existing organization to operate in the digital mode. So the functions are those. 65 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,480 However, how they're actually implemented will very much depend on the existing context and type 66 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,400 of product that you need to build. Yeah. So tell me more about that last phase, because I think 67 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:07,840 since doing things, uh, I'm being kind of vague, but since doing things in this way is relatively new, 68 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:13,280 there's not all that many multi-year cases of, and here's how we, you know, here's how we incubate this 69 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:18,000 team basically or this product and then move it back, kind of like spread it back. And so what, 70 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,640 how do you make sure people don't revert back to the old way of doing things? 71 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:31,360 So actually you cannot really, so none of it. So the thing is that at some point as so the way it 72 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,800 happens is that at the end of the product, during the, during the product delivery phase, actually, 73 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:41,280 we've helped that organization recruit the team that will inherit the product so that they have 74 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:45,360 the right skills. They have the same organization principles. They are agile minded and so on. 75 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,720 So there will be some compatibility. Then we take them with us for a while. So we do one sprint 76 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:56,000 together. Okay. The last sprint of the product where they learn about our continuous integration 77 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:02,480 pipelines and so on. Uh, then they, uh, we do the scoping of the next phase together as well. 78 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:07,840 So now we have the two teams defining what the future of the product will be. And then after that, 79 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:13,440 we go to their location and operate in that mode with them for an entire sprint. 80 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,760 So you sort of stick with them and kind of like give some coaching and input. And to a certain 81 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:24,160 extent, um, what would you call it? Kind of guard railing. Yeah. Right. Like to sort of remind 82 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,480 them that like, this is the habit you need to form. Absolutely. Yes. And also at that moment, 83 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,680 we've agreed on what are the value KPIs that we need to measure to keep track of the successful 84 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:39,040 products. And also we've put in place a reporting mechanism so that we can validate that they keep 85 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:45,280 on working in the right way. Still, uh, we believe ourselves in the autonomy of teams. 86 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:50,640 Okay. Right. And so we can only be prescriptive on how they should work up to a certain point 87 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,760 as well. Right. Right. So they need to pave their own way at some point. 88 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,960 Yeah. I mean, I guess, I guess it's kind of a cliche way of putting it, but you can instill the 89 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,640 principles that they should be operating at. But at a certain point, you don't want to describe what 90 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,200 every single person does on a daily basis, right? You just more want to say like, this is what it 91 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,280 should look like and figure out how to get there. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. So things that 92 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:16,240 remain important is that they should have a fast iteration and should not kill the continuous 93 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:21,120 delivery and so on. And we have ways to monitor that. But if at some point it's more suitable for 94 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,760 them to move to one week sprint instead of two, that's their, that's their product. That's their 95 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:30,960 team. They've determined that that's the valuable thing to do. So, so, uh, conceptually, 96 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,560 like with a couple of teams, like it seems to make sense, but you know, I mean the, the, 97 00:08:34,560 --> 00:08:41,680 the types of organizations, both of our companies work with are huge. Yes. And so there's a certain 98 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:48,080 challenge of how do you, how do you approach like, you know, uh, a place that has like 20,000 people 99 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:53,600 in the IT department or like, you know, 500 applications that eventually need to move over. 100 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:58,640 Like even starting up with thinking about what you do, I imagine must be kind of different. So how do you 101 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:04,080 all wrap your hands around that? So one, one, one of the things is that we really see actually 102 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:09,360 the tech fundraise themselves as a minimum viable product itself. So actually you need to validate 103 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:15,360 its success when things are still small and still in control. So actually we'd be more in, 104 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:21,920 um, um, at my client, we started with only three squads and ensure that those were successful 105 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,400 before when paying up. Right. So that's, so that you have something actually to base yourself, 106 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:31,760 uh, to base yourself upon. So that's how you validate. Then after how you, um, you know, 107 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:37,600 the, um, uh, elephant, uh, the feeling or the eating? No, no, no. Yeah. How do you eat an elephant? 108 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:42,160 Right. One slice at a time. So it's something very similar happens. So, so the idea we, we followed 109 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:49,200 at our, at our, at my main client was really that, um, every time you transfer one product back to his 110 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,960 business line, you create a small bubble of digital mating way of working there. 111 00:09:54,960 --> 00:10:00,000 Right. Then with the second product, there'll be another one. And progressively there'll be three, 112 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,560 four, they'll start talking with each other. And that's how you convert. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's 113 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:09,360 one of the, when that's, it's a catalyst. It's that's, that's really the way for sure. Yeah. And 114 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:15,120 that, that pacing is something I've learned over the past three or four years is, and I, I kind of 115 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,440 have forgotten to remind people of this is like, if you're at a large organization, you should set your 116 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:24,800 expectations. Cause this is going to take a long time, right? Like you can't just, it's not, 117 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:29,600 it's not like some things where you just install some software or you have a new type of dashboard, 118 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:36,080 right? Like it's more of, it's almost as if your chances of being successful will be 119 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,560 very small if you don't start small, right? Like you say, start with one and then two and then so 120 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:46,560 forth and so on. And so, uh, yeah, I mean, especially at large organizations, I think that takes a lot of 121 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:51,360 persuasion because everyone in a large organization, if there's any new budget being spent, they're like, 122 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:56,160 I need to have immediate impact in ROI. Yeah. So let's approach the biggest thing possible. 123 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,360 And like, but actually the, the, the budget story is, is a key one. 124 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:00,640 Oh yeah. How does that play? 125 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,800 Yeah. And it, it comes to the type of product that you will select for your transformation 126 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:10,480 where you actually need the mix, meaning you will need some, uh, really cool and shiny thing, 127 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:17,440 pure player type thing. Okay. Where you will try to have a nearly B2C play that will grab customer 128 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:22,320 and show the perfect example of a startup like initiative. Right. The thing is that you won't 129 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:27,680 justify a multimillion dollar investment with those type of thing, which if you're lucky, 130 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:30,480 they'll generate 500K revenues a year, you know? Right, right, right. 131 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:37,680 So you need to have a part of that to set the clear examples. You also need to select a few of 132 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:43,520 existing products that are, that drive much larger revenues that you will either re-platform or 133 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:49,680 convert a ways of working so that you can actually tag significant revenues to the, the thing the 134 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:54,720 factory is doing. Right, right, right. So that you have some scale that actually matches investment. 135 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,640 So you will need the mix. You need the pure players to actually show the best example and go 136 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,600 as far as you can into pure greenfield environment. But you also need to have some more like kind of 137 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:09,440 technology conversion type place where you will actually re-platform some larger revenues 138 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:14,800 applications to actually bring into the new color of money some large initiatives. Right, right. 139 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:23,520 Yeah, yeah. And so what, what do you, what do you call that process like of gardening the portfolio? 140 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:28,400 Demand, so we call it demand management actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's how you manage your 141 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,560 pipeline of work that enters the factory, the foundry. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So demand 142 00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:37,520 management and, and the, the way we've named the process is what we call framing. Uh-huh. 143 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:42,800 Where we actually analyze, analyze the business ideas and validate that it can be a proper 144 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,520 minimal viable product to put into the factory. Oh, right, right. So there's validation to show you can do 145 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:54,800 validation, which, which makes sense. And, and so like, what's the ongoing, um, when you do the, uh, 146 00:12:54,800 --> 00:13:00,960 the, the, the demand management, like, what does that look like? Is that redone every like quarter 147 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:05,520 or every year? Like what's the ongoing process of it? It's a continuous process where you need to have 148 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:13,280 scouts in a various business, uh, uh, domains that will spot ideas and promote them. And then after that 149 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,480 becomes your pipeline. So actually it's your pipeline of work entering the foundry. Right, right. So, 150 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,520 so that, that's a whole other role that you have is to basically be generating demand. Yeah. 151 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:28,400 Actually when, when you look at the, uh, and that's actually for us at Accenture, the, uh, 152 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:33,440 these new tech foundries, they're really a multi-brand play, meaning that on a successful one, 153 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:38,480 we will have people from Accenture strategy that will be analyzing ideas and doing the proper kind of 154 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:44,000 business cases around which products should enter the factory. Right. There will be some, 155 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,800 uh, industry experts coming from our consulting groups that will help on the shaping of those 156 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,840 products. Also, for instance, help redesign how we do the HR function to be successful in the type 157 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:59,200 of profile. Right, right, right, right. Um, and we will have technology people that will actually 158 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:04,800 man the delivery teams in the first phase before the organization had time to recruit their own 159 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:10,320 people. So there's, there's sort of a coordination of multiple groups that are involved in this. 160 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,440 So there are not, people are coming from many things, but there's one single culture. And actually 161 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:21,120 one thing that is absolutely key for success is that if you want to be successful, the loyalty of the 162 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:26,080 people you've assembled, they should come to the foundry first before looking at what badges people 163 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,880 are wearing. Yeah. So actually for us, they're really pure partnership where we cannot really 164 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,840 differentiate when you enter the engagement, who's coming from Accenture and who's coming from the 165 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:40,240 customer. Right, right. So, so, I mean, you were mentioning a client that you have and having 166 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:45,600 worked on this, but like going forward, uh, like are, are you all assembling kind of like a repeatable 167 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:50,000 process for this? Absolutely. Like, like, like, and, and well, are you validating that idea? 168 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,440 There's almost like this recursion of like, you know, lean feedback loops that goes up and up and up, 169 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,680 but how, how are you building out that practice so you can take it to other organizations? 170 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:05,680 So, uh, first of all, so I'm mentioning one client, but actually we are probably a dozen or 171 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:12,080 so operating ones worldwide at the moment of different size and shapes. Okay. But that's 172 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:17,360 already a thing. Okay. Uh, what we're doing at the moment is really, uh, let's say capitalizing 173 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,760 on our various lessons learned so that we have a bit of a guiding boot on when we start up one, 174 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:26,640 we actually can implement the, I mean, we can get the best from the lessons learned we've had from 175 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:32,560 the various, uh, various engagements. So that's, uh, that's one. And then after we do what, uh, 176 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:39,040 let's say, uh, uh, services organization do, which is really, uh, making sure that all the people 177 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:44,880 on our account are equipped about the information, about the offering to start promoting it. And actually, 178 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:50,000 uh, if they meet the client that wants to be successful in the digital transformation, 179 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,200 they understand that there's such an offering available, right? You need a foundry for a 180 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,720 foundry to sort of productize it. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. Well, great. Well, 181 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,240 thanks for going over that. I mean, like I've mentioned, uh, a couple of times when we were 182 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,720 talking, like I see that pattern playing over and over again and it definitely, I mean, I don't want 183 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,880 to be like a hundred percent like true in the statement, but I'm pretty sure it's pretty much 184 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,840 always what you have to do to improve the way you're doing software and products. Cause it's just 185 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,400 very difficult to do otherwise. And I think, I think, you know, several of the key things you 186 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:25,200 outlined, I see as well, where, uh, you want to take enthusiastic people, right? Like 187 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:31,680 more or less volunteers like at first, and then you need to start small and pick a few applications. 188 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,720 But then importantly, those applications have to be, I don't know, to use a highfalutin business 189 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,680 term material, right? Like they need to be actual business facing things that can have results. 190 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,080 Yeah. And there's another thing that's key actually that's quite close from, uh, the way people think 191 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:52,080 as well is that you need opinionated people on that. Right. Meaning you want to bet on the fact 192 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,560 that you know what, if you want to be a product in the foundry, you need to be cloud native. Okay. 193 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:02,400 Right, right, right. We only do agile things. We only for us an initiative that allows us to eight 194 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:07,120 sprints. Actually, we're going to slice it. Our maximum team squad is eight people. You know, 195 00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:11,520 no, you cannot be nine. Yeah. That type of things, you know? And, and, and that's really something on 196 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,440 which our, our respective organizations actually share. Yeah. Yeah. No, like you're saying, 197 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:20,720 there's a certain, there must be some phrase for this, but there's a certain, uh, performance 198 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,200 advantage to saying this is a bucket of things we're not going to think about. Yes. Right. Which, 199 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:30,080 and, and what, which are essentially opinions, right? Like we have, we always do pair programming. 200 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:35,760 We have a maximum of 12 people and just like, let's not spend a week considering that, right? 201 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,360 Like we could, we could reinvent this stuff everywhere, but yeah, let's just go with this 202 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:43,600 for now. And that way we can focus on this whole other set of things to train ourselves with. 203 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:50,160 Absolutely. And the thing as well is that this also makes you super powerful when you talk actually to 204 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:56,800 business departments that need to be converted because whoever they talk to, they face that, 205 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,240 those shared beliefs. That's right. Right. You have kind of like a unified system. Exactly. 206 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,160 Well, great. Well, if people wanted to find out more about it, where, uh, where would they go look? 207 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:11,920 Um, so it's not a public website type thing yet. So at the moment it's more something we communicate 208 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,960 on internally. Uh, however, uh, if people are engaged with some of our accountants, 209 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,280 they can definitely get a view on the offer. Right. All right. Sounds good. Well, 210 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,280 thanks for going over all that. That was really interesting.