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you know, it has been hot here. And I was thinking I'm probably now contributing to the problem

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because I have, get this, I don't know, I think in your neck of the woods and all of the neck of

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the woods called America, it's considered bad if you use charcoal basically for your grill. And I've

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done that like three or four times now, because we don't have a gas grill here. And we have a

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little Weber and you just, you get, you get, you get that little chimney thing and you put some

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charcoal in there and it's delightful. It's really, it's fun. The food tastes good. So that's probably

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why it was like in the, the, you know, low nineties last week. Cause I've been, yeah, we're putting a

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face on climate change. So you're the, you're the cause. Yeah, that's right. But boy, you put some,

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you put some salmon and burgers on there. Now you're talking, you put some, the earth may be

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dying at a fiery death, but that salmon's delicious. Put some bratwurst. Do you think, do you think with

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your family, you could get away with calling bratwurst hot dogs or would they, uh, would they

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sort of like instantly see through your, uh, your verbal nonsense? No, I have to probably be at

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least sausage. A hot dog would be a bridge too far. Cause I, I think, I think I have, I have

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successfully conditioned my kids to look at sausage and hot dogs as all the same thing. So I just say

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we're having hot dogs and boom, we can have bratwurst, regular hot dogs, what they call a real American

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hot dog around here, whatever you want, which opens up the options. Now, this is why I say when I be like

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you and I grow up, that's a, it's a good milestone. Well, maybe next episode. Uh, I was just, uh, at the

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grocery store, I got some pizzas that are entirely made of vegetables, including the crust. Now, one of

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them advertises itself, not only as hand stretch, but it's also purple. So I, uh, I don't know how I

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feel about that, but I'll, I'll have to give a further update. It's a purple, all plant-based

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pizza by, am I right? Yes. Yes. That's sounds like a Dr. Seuss sort of. That's what I was just

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thinking. Yeah. This doesn't sound like normal food, but congrats. That's right. And in this other

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room, I have purple plant pizzas and was it was, it was nuts. Yeah. Oh, it's great. Yeah. Walk it in my

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socket. Well, uh, I think it's been a while since we've had a, a little episode here. We've got a little

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bit of new stuff to come through. And then I was, uh, I wanted to go over, I don't know why I need to

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clear my throat. I wanted to go over, uh, like we had a, a, a private alpha announcement of doing

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things more with a pivotal cloud foundering Kubernetes, which, which we'll get to. But

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first of all, I think, uh, I think it's, there's, it's sort of earning seasons for some people looks

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like the, uh, the public cloud business, the big three and the other ones looks like they're doing

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just fine. They have, uh, they have good growth rates, lots of usage. What's, what's your take on

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that? Yeah. As you say, I think it's all, uh, all solid. It was interesting. This was the first time

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since Amazon started, uh, reporting cloud earnings actually broken out that they were below 40% growth,

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which was at least at first, like, wow. Yeah. Like, Hey, these are big numbers. It's still like

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30 something billion dollar run rate. So it's hard to keep growing that fast as you keep getting

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bigger, but it was at first kind of like, Hmm. And the stock took a dip as a result. Even Microsoft's

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earnings were down from the last quarter, I believe. And again, still, still really robust.

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Like these are still significant growth numbers, just not as crazy. Now, Google's reported their

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stuff up at a, I think it was an $8 billion run rate. And they like Microsoft, they, they throw a

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bunch of stuff in that cloud number. So it's not pure cloud stuff. It's also their office productivity

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stuff. So it's hard to figure out exactly what the cloud stuff is, but it is way up. And, uh, I don't

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know, to me, it was for Amazon and Microsoft specifically, it kind of reinforced why I seem to be seeing

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much more aggressive migration storylines coming from them. Cause I think maybe they've gobbled

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up a lot of the easier workloads and now they have to do more of this work to actually, you

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know, get these data-driven workloads, these things that are just sitting in, you know, on-premises

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systems. It's just harder to move them. So I'm just seeing more attention paid on workshops,

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on tools, on services to get people to migrate from those two. So maybe they're, maybe those

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are related points. It's that, uh, that platform of productivity. I think I saw some new phrase

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for that, uh, recently, you know, the, the idea of, uh, when, when, when the mainstream people,

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the bulk of your, you know, hopefully multi-decade top line revenue, just start buying stuff from you.

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I forget what that phrase was though. Yeah. I saw another, uh, uh, and some, a financial analyst

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made some statement that, uh, Microsoft's cloud money or revenue is now equal to its on-premise

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revenue, which to your point that you were just making, that includes, uh, SAS and IAS, all,

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all the sort of cloud stuff. As I was joking on my other podcast, I'm not sure that includes

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Xbox live revenue, but, uh, you know, whatever, or being, but still it is, uh, uh, I was, I was,

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as I'm forever doing, working on this, uh, I don't know, either book or a long PDF I've been

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messing around with. And I found myself writing, uh, up an example of public cloud as a, uh, sort

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of the term disruptions always a problem, but as sort of like a strategic, uh, thing to look out

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for. And, and it is, uh, as, as I was writing through it, I was thinking like, I'm pretty sure

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of all companies, no one would have guessed back then that like Microsoft would figure it out.

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Like they were, uh, I even went and searched for a company, but they, I mean, for a company for a

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write-up of this, but most people at the time were like, Hmm, not looking good. I know they were

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writing the company off and, uh, yeah, I mean, they, they really, uh, like, like other companies

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succeeding in cloud. They really, uh, surprised people I think, and, uh, have, have more than

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figured it out. They've gotten very good at it. Right. Yeah, no doubt. And, and to that also,

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I think, uh, I forget the exact date, but the, uh, I forget what they call it, but the, uh,

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basically the Gartner public cloud magic quadrant was out with, uh, I believe it has just six people

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in it. And by people, I mean, companies, uh, it has, of course, I think if I remember, it basically

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goes Amazon, Microsoft, Google, and then there's like, uh, Alibaba is in there and I forget the

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other two. I should probably remember. Oracle, Oracle and IBM. Yeah. Yes. Yes. But, but it's,

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it's a pretty, if, if, uh, it's, it's a more or less sort of like linear line, uh, of things going

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on there. But I think more importantly, uh, you know, the, the, my sort of thinking of it, one is

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like, there's only six vendors, which, which is kind of interesting. And, uh, and then two, I mean,

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it is thinking about of all the like cloud services that are out there. And then also the huge basket

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of things that each of those clouds does, especially the ones up in the, uh, the leader quadrant,

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the up and to the right, as they say, uh, it's interesting to kind of like just jam them down

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into like one data point. And granted, I'm sure there's other magic quadrants that go into like,

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you know, machine learning and hosted storage and stuff like that, but that must be quite the

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Herculean task to, uh, reduce down what, what must be rows and rows of spreadsheets into, uh,

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just a simple plot of six. Yeah. Yeah. I used to fill this out when I work for a,

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an IS provider who used to show up on the magic quadrant, alas, no longer, but you know,

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it was like 170 question questionnaire that would take forever to fill out. But there's a ton of

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research that goes in behind this. It's not some silly pay for play sort of deal where I know if

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you pay a lot, you show up in a magic quadrant. If you did some of the people in the niche section

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would be much higher. It was just based on who pays a lot. So I think it's interesting to see.

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Now I did look at the report. I have it up right now. Uh, nobody was dropped or added this last year.

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So it was this lonely last year too. I guess this used to be such a kind of a Superbowl moment in

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the IS space. Cause everyone would be like, Oh my gosh, let's see who it is. Everyone jockey for

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position. Now I actually missed it. Like I noticed that the next day that this came out. So it's just

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much less hoopla. I think because the markets kind of coalesced around three big providers and then

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three interesting, but kind of going to be tough to push up to the leader quadrant providers. And

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the report's really good. If you're a Gartner subscriber, you honestly should, you should dig

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through it because they have some really good strengths and cautions for each of the providers,

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even for Amazon, even for Microsoft, even for Google. So they're really worth looking at,

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right? Cause it's hard to sift through all the noise. I thought they did an admirable job trying

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to do that in this year's report. Hmm. Sounds like a fun PDF. Good. It's a, just get a cup of coffee

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or it's really hot for you. So it'd be just like a lemonade and read through it. Yeah. Yeah. I was,

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uh, I was, uh, I've, I've been signing some books to send to people or, or as O'Reilly likes to call

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my hard effort reports, uh, as, as you well know, I believe. Uh, and, uh, I, I've started writing in

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them, uh, I, you know, I hope this is helpful if only as a sleep aid, which I think is, uh, you know,

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potential thing that, that reminds me and not, not that I, cause I, I share your sentiment about

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those writers, but I have been like, I like to print things out, uh, when I'm writing bigger works,

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just so I can kind of see everything and mix it together. It's just easier and distraction free.

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And I have come up with a, uh, uh, a thing to do with scrap paper. Now don't tell my kids,

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but every now and then they have a drawing and I just take a picture of it and use it for the

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falling as well. But you know, when you've got that charcoal chimney, you got to put some paper in

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there to like start it up. And so I've been saving all this scrap paper, uh, you know, to do that.

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So I feel like, you know, I'm killing the environment, maybe 2% less is, is what I'm going for

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right there. Adorable. Yeah. That's a good review. Well, meanwhile, uh, speaking of, uh, uh, uh,

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lots of, uh, different wingdings and stuff going on in, in the cloud. What's, what's the, uh, the

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event bridge thing that Amazon came out with? Yeah, they announced this a week or so ago at one of

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their, uh, summit events in New York. So this is their service. Well, they bid, bid it as a serverless

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event bus. And so you've already might say, well, they already have SQS. That was, I think the first

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Amazon service back in like 06 or 04 or something like that. That's their queuing service. So what

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is this? So this is really meant to be kind of message routing for SAS services, for Amazon services,

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kind of a backing plane for event communication. So Microsoft has something kind of similar with

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Azure event, uh, event grid tech like that. But I think for me, this continues to, to reinforce

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this idea that you're seeing much, much more attention paid on the venture of an architecture

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kind of fast data processing. I have a blog up on the pivotal blog from last week or the

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week before on kind of speeding up your data processing. So it seems like the cloud providers

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are obviously trying to help encourage that pattern, not just, Hey, let's have a bunch of

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synchronous communication between things and batch processing. Let's actually do decoupled,

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but event based communication. So this seems like a pretty nice service. It's generally

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available now it's available in a bunch of regions. Uh, so I think it's going to be one

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that I want to play around with and see what it actually does, but it seems like another push

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forward for a venture of an architecture. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I, I, uh, despite having

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read it and even tweeted it, I forgot about that, that you wrote, uh, you wrote that post up

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there, which I thought was a great overview of, uh, what I mean, basically changing over your

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thinking and, and even a little bit of your coding to having an event driven architecture,

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which, which seems like, you know, I don't, I don't, uh, delve into the old, uh, programming

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books, uh, like I used to, like, I think you do probably, but, uh, I mean, that seems to be

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the dominant like way of thinking about architecture nowadays, right? Like, or, and by dominant,

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what I mean is like what everyone talks about, uh, which hopefully eventually translates into,

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uh, actually doing things, but it seems like the recommendation is, uh, you should do your stuff

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in an event, an event driven architecture, or, or am I, uh, am I reading the wrong, like buckets of

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excitement? No, I think those are the right buckets of excitement. I think, like you said,

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and I think I quoted in the piece that a lot of people are saying they want to do it. The number

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of people actually doing it is not nearly as big. And I think what's, what's tricky and we have to do

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a good job in the tech space of this is like buying Kafka does not make you event driven

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using Amazon, you know, the AWS event bridge stuff does not make you event driven. Like you have to

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architect for it and you have to rethink how you process data and how you think about this stuff. So

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there's no shortcuts here. It's actually a kind of a big architectural change. So I just want to make

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sure vendors don't accidentally pitch magic bullets here as if you just plug this thing in, everything's

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just events and you're processing it. It's amazing. You can do some horrible things using things like

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rabbit and Kafka and things like that. So don't do that. So it is, I think a dominant talked about

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pattern. I'm not sure everyone knows exactly what it looks like yet. And we're all learning together.

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It's like to use our old friend, not that she's old, but has been for a while. Friend Bridget's like

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saying about Kubernetes, right? Like buying Kafka is not going to fix your bad culture, so to speak,

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your bad architecture. Or maybe it was some good point. Anyways, that seems like a deep well for people to

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start writing up like and not just like the theoretics of what it is, but actually like what are the

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practicalities of moving things to that way. And like, you know, if I wanted to book an airline ticket, what does

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that look like? Or book a rental car? Man, have you rented a rental car recently? There's high variance in the

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quality of experience across companies. It's a, yeah, there's, there's a, there's a lot of opportunity

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there. Yeah. But to your point on a guidance and stuff, I know I've been tweeting a little more about

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this stuff lately. There've been some good articles lately, like things I've learned about, you know,

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my failed adventure of an architecture and things like that, because now people are doing it. And so

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they're starting to see like, Hey, this pattern I brought forward from enterprise service bus, that does

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not work in this pattern. Or, Hey, we were accidentally using our event broker as a database. Hey,

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don't do that. Or things that people are learning. So I think that's great, right? We're getting past

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the hype a little bit and now more into, Hey, I've tried this. This was not good, or this was great,

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which is hopefully the point where enterprises can start paying real attention.

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Yeah. Well, also speaking of old friends who I think maybe are a little older than Bridget,

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I should go check the math. Uh, red monk also came out with its, uh, its language rankings. They do

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these like quarterly now, if I remember, right. Or, uh, it's not annual. I don't really remember

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anymore, but anyways, it looks like, uh, you know, the usual, the usual things, uh, came out

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languages that begin with J still very popular. You got your, uh, JavaScript, number one, Java,

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number two, Python, PHP, and then C plus plus and C sharp. Now, now would you say C sharp is

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synonymous sloppy as it is with that net at this point? Yes. I mean, I don't think a lot of people

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are doing VB.net or F sharp or some of the variants. So it's the dominant choice. I know

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I asked this every now and then, but do you, uh, do you MVP types? Do you get all upset when people

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just say.net programming instead of something more precise? I mean, maybe not you, you're pretty laid

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back, but like, is it, is it, do other people get all, you know, like antsy? I don't think it burns

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up the news groups or anything when people say that that's a really dated reference.

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Okay. No, no. Was it, was there a name in the, uh, the.net world for that, uh, that yellow

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blocky character with the, uh, the round head? Uh, the channel nine guy. Yeah. I think he's

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the channel nine guy. I don't think his name is like Phil or anything. That would be great. It's

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Phil. No, I love like, you know, as an aside, I love pets with human, like normal human names.

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Oh yeah. That's my favorite, like a cat named Matthew. Yeah. Or, or like, I think my favorite

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human name ever is Larry. That's my dad's name. So yeah. I mean, if I like Larry the hamster,

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that's brilliant. Yeah. Or, or, you know, to use a, I don't know if you listen to that, uh, my brother,

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my brother and me podcast, but they, they come up with some of the best common human names. And

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I think one they've been using a lot recently is Ron, uh, which I think is great. It's like their

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common stepdad name, Ron. You just have like a little Yorkshire terrier called Ron. Everybody's

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going to love that dog. Uh, exactly. But you know, I, uh, you know, I, I didn't review the methodology,

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uh, but typically what they do is they do some analysis of like a GitHub and, and, uh, and stack

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overflow and a few other sources, but you know, it's, uh, I think it's a good proxy for what's

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going on. Excuse me. And more importantly, I, I've, I, you know, I've yet to see an animated

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chart of all their years of data. Maybe they have one for clients or whatever, but I think,

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I think more importantly, what's interesting is just kind of, uh, anecdotally keeping up with

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the, uh, the, the change year over year or whatever the time period is. Because for example,

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I remember, um, they were actually like quoted by Apple many years ago when they pointed out,

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as you say here, as you see here, that Swift, uh, uh, rose above objective C like very rapidly

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when Apple shifted over to that being, uh, an iOS language, which, you know, if you think

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about it is actually pretty remarkable that a brand new language in a, well, arguably gigantic

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niche, uh, in, in a, uh, a niche, uh, became popular and supplanted another one that quickly,

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or I don't know, maybe it's not because it was such a niche controlled by one vendor that it was

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easy to swap it out. Who knows? Uh, but as another example, it's sort of like, as I joked,

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languages that begin with Java tend to stay at the top, uh, over time.

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Pretty remarkable. I mean, there's some other things that, you know, again, language rankings

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aren't going to change a lot quarter to quarter or half year to half year, however long they

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publish this, but TypeScript, which is a super set of JavaScript that Microsoft created for type

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safety, that thing keeps climbing. So it's been going up from, I think number 26 last year,

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it's up to 12. So that's actually moved or, uh, it's moved up a lot. I don't think it's that high,

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but it's continuing to move up. It's actually number 10 now. Wow. So that's moving up a lot.

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Go has kind of stagnated just a little bit. It's down one. I think some people were thinking that

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go might be the next dominant language and it's just kind of hanging out there comfortably at like

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whatever, 16. But as you say, JavaScript and Java have just dominated the first two spots for years

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on these rankings. I think for most of our listeners, what that takeaway is, is these are safe

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bets. You know, these other ones are also safe bets. People using Ruby, that's still number eight,

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right? C sharp still number five. Like these are mature, stable languages. You'll find skill sets in

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the market. If you're a developer, you should learn these things. So it's always good to me to look at

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these sort of lists and not fall into hype of, Oh, Kotlin's everywhere. It's cool. It's number 20.

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Everything's not being written in Kotlin. Some stuff is so relax. So continue to use the big

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languages and you'll be set. And your buddy, Phil has been working hard on PowerShell there at number

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17. There you go. Climbing the ranks. You know, I, I've never seen all the people joking about like,

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don't use shell scripts. They should start referencing the, uh, the red monk thing where they're like,

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look, shell is number 14. Why is it on there? Like, you know, more popular than R and go, which,

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you know, someone should have like the crying emoji on a slide or something. Or I don't know,

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maybe shell is awesome. Who, who knows? We should ask Phil. He might have some ideas.

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Yeah. Larry's got some input. Larry, Phil and Ron.

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Now there's four, four horsemen to the apocalypse, right? This is, this is probably my annual atonement

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that I think the first year I was at pivotal, I wrote a, a piece about the three horsemen of the,

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uh, the digital, or I might've even said probably by that time I was saying horse people instead of

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gendering it, uh, horse entities. But, uh, you know, there's, there's three, not four. There's good.

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I should revisit that again. The, the three horsemen revisited horse. Yeah. We're going to

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finally add the fourth. That's right. Everyone's been waiting for you to do this. We'll add the

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fourth. It's Phil. Uh, it's very non-threatening. That's right. Uh, well, so, you know, speaking of

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news, I think it was, uh, was it last week if I recall or the week before anyways, you probably

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remember precisely because you, uh, you actually do real work around here, uh, involving this kind of

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thing. But we had, uh, we, we had an overview of, uh, uh, essentially, uh, that we have, uh, I guess

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you could call it a private alpha. I guess that is what it's called of running, uh, the plat pivotal

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application service or paths on top of, uh, Kubernetes. And essentially what most people think of pivotal

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cloud foundry, having, uh, you know, the direction of trying out running all of that on Kubernetes.

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Uh, I guess arguably you don't really have Kubernetes running on Kubernetes, but crazier

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things have been known to happen. Uh, but anyhow, you want to give us a, uh, an overview of the gist

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of that, that announcement? Yeah, there's been a few things bubbling up here for a while. And again,

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to some extent you need the history lesson, because if we go back, I mean, any, any person who knows

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anything about this space kind of understands some of the origin story of PaaS, P-A-A-S,

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right? Platform as a service. It was Heroku and Google app engine, super powerful, very opinionated,

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only ran as public services. Okay. Cloud foundry comes out PCF ships in 2014. This is before Docker

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existed before Kubernetes was even an idea. And so the whole idea was, Hey, let's simplify what it

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means to build, run and wire up stuff, right? Build all your package, all your stuff, get it deployed,

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stage it, hook up all the observability stuff, wire it into backing services, do all that in 25 seconds.

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So a developer doesn't have to open up 14 tickets to push an app, game changing stuff,

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right? Since then, sure. Things like Docker come out. Cool. PaaS, pivotal application service,

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part of PCF supports Docker. Kubernetes comes out. All right. It's a little different ballgame there.

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People kind of putting platforms on top of that. IBM started some work on something called Irene.

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We joined that project earlier this year, been contributing a ton to it. So the work that we're

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shipping now in PaaS says, okay, that orchestrator that we had built into Cloud Foundry called Diego,

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we had already evolved once, right? This is the second orchestration change to Diego. This would

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be the third into Kubernetes. And that thing just runs all the app workloads, right? So Diego does that,

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does it for Windows, does it for Linux, supports all sorts of very sophisticated things that were part

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of making Cloud Foundry awesome. So now the key is, all right, that's a big commodity at this point.

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The orchestrator is a commodity. How much should we invest in that? Kubernetes has matured to a great

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place. It's complicated, but we can, and we can make it easier to use. So that was kind of the

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decision to bring that into kind of the Cloud Foundry world and PaaS saying, let's swap out those

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orchestrators. Let's bring Kubernetes in. Let's tap into an amazing ecosystem, much more extensibility

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than what Diego had. And Kubernetes now is in a great place because it does support Windows as of the

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last release. And it is stabilizing some of the custom resource definitions and other APIs that have

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been evolving in the platform. So it's a good place to bring this in. 12 to 18 months ago, honestly,

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I think it would have degraded the experience of PaaS a bit because it didn't have some of these

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things our customers expected. Now they're there. Awesome. So as we bring this in, as you said,

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it's a private alpha. People can try this out. You can push apps. You can do HTTP routing,

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hookup logs, scale apps, all sorts of basic things. Over these coming months, we'll add more things

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around testing this thing at scale, supporting all the TCP routing, supporting more than vSphere as an

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IaaS. Because this opens up some cool opportunities, right? I could drop PaaS now on a public cloud

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Kubernetes, you know, in the future. I could do some different things where I could take advantage of

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Kubernetes being ubiquitous. And now PaaS becoming the better interface on top of it. Because as a

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developer, I really don't want to write a ton of YAML. I don't want to configure DNS. I just kind of want to

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push my code and have it packaged up for me and run successfully on a great layer. And that's what

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PaaS does. So I think this opens up some cool opportunities. As you said, private alpha, people

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can request and try this out right now. We've already got people deploying it. It's exciting stuff. It's

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another cool part of the evolution, which I think gives new life to what an application platform on

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Kubernetes is going to look like. Yeah. And I think as with a couple of other parts of the news,

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it opens up, well, for us, but also people who want to try this experiment of running things on top of

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Kubernetes, essentially. So for example, we have, I think this is the only one we have at the moment,

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but we have a basically RabbitMQ for Kubernetes that you can install and run and have managed on top of,

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it's just PKS, right? Not just Kubernetes in general. Or is it Kubernetes in general?

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The point is it'd be Kubernetes in general for all of these. So we're going to make sure they run great

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on PKS, but they should run on all of them. Right, right. And so that seems like a desire that

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people would have. And certainly, I think, I don't know, as we and me and my other podcasts and other

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places discuss a lot, over the past couple of years, much of the discussion is about Kubernetes itself,

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as I guess it was historically when Linux was coming about, right? It seemed to be,

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there's a lot of Linux talk. And somewhere I lost my reference card about NetBSD and FreeBSD and Linux

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and all that, whatever. But increasingly, as some infrastructure technology becomes more widely

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used, you sort of move the discussion up the stack and you wonder about, as I used to joke about it,

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you want to be more than just a blinking cursor of infrastructure ready to use. So I think there's

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a good opportunity both with PAS or PAS, as we say, and also with RabbitMQ and we have a build service

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as well. But looking at those things and experimenting with, does it make sense? And what are the operating,

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what would you say, sort of procedures? And I don't know, how do you fit in the idea of installing stuff

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and running stuff on top of Kubernetes instead of on its own, if you will?

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Yeah, to your point, the blinking cursor is very uninteresting once you get it going, right? So if

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all I have is just a Kubernetes running or a Linux environment running or even EC2 running and Amazon,

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like, so what? So how do I get my code there? How do I run it? How do I do ops? How do I do

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continuous delivery? Like, that's the stuff, right? That's the stuff that goes to business value.

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So in this case, when I have a great Kubernetes platform, cool. Now, how do I get code there?

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How do I run that stuff? How do I run the right types of data workloads or app workloads?

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How do I do day two updates to container images? Because gosh, if I struggle to update 10,000 VMs,

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what am I going to do with 50,000 containers? Like, that's going to get worse. So what is my day two

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story like? Are there new sort of workloads I can run? What's this public and private consideration?

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Can I actually have any consistency across all the public clouds and my private stuff? These are all

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fun architectural questions. It seems like people are asking. And if I can have some consistency

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across those, thanks to applying pivotal opinions to not just PAS, but now things like a build service

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that would just run on any Kubernetes and take your code and turn it into a container. And when there's

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a change to something in that layer, maybe there's a JVM bug. Maybe there's a OS Linux defect or

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vulnerability that build service can automatically patch those and have you with a fresh container.

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That's a cool value add that this doesn't come natively on those platforms. Same with

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things like pivotal function service and running actual app workloads that are short-lived and long

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lived, or as you mentioned, Rabbit. So I think now we're having these conversations about how do I make

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these almost infrastructure layers like K8s, which are kind of dissolving into just ubiquity.

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Okay. How do I turn that into something that makes it easier to add value? And that's, I think,

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what we're in right now. And it's this race to see who can make these platforms the most usable.

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Who can valueize the best, the most rapidly. So, yeah. And you went over this briefly,

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but let's zoom in or double click. Or what do the kids say nowadays? You're in a lot of meetings.

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What do they say when they want to double click on something?

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I don't know if I'm in meetings with kids. I mean, am I swiping to zoom? Like,

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I don't know what the reference would be besides double clicking.

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Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's swipe.

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Or whatever. Pinch to zoom.

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Pinch to zoom. Okay. That's good. Let's pinch. Pinch to swipe.

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All right. Well, you should take a poll around the office over there in Seattle.

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Do people say, what do they say when they want to, they want more detail?

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Probably that. They probably just don't say corporate speak. K8, can you tell me more?

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All that, all that, all that like business BS, uh, stuff back, back when we were kids,

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it's paying off, which I, I don't, I don't like, I liked all the BS. So poetic.

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That made us feel important. Yeah. Yeah. It's our secret language. You know, you can't,

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you can't tell the kid, the kids that, you know, you don't want your kid coming up to me and be like,

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dad, I think we need to double click on you calling this a hot dog.

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That's right.

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I'm going to double click on the salad choices. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to hear that from my 10 year old.

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Oh, this reminds me while, while we're on nonsense again, and then I'll, we'll emerge from it. What

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is your position on, let's say you take a zucchini or a cucumber and then, and then you core out the

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outside. So you just kind of have the edges. Are you for or against, or have some, uh, some over

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conditionalized strategy around that? What do you do with the edges?

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Well, you, you eat that part. I, although I, I like the, the, the unexpected way you were thinking is

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someone is going to eat the core.

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I'm just cutting out the middle of it. I'm just eating like donuts of zucchini.

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I, you know, cause I, I had, uh, uh, the Albert Heine here, I guess all grocery stores are like

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this, but you know, it's a big, big Dutch grocery store. They have tons of prepared food. And because

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we now, I now go to the grocery store every day or every other day, I often buy just prepared food.

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And they had one that was just like, I don't know, ginger chicken. It's, it's in Dutch. So I

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don't actually know what it is, but the zucchinis they had were these, these sort of like zucchini

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crescents where they dig out the middle. And I, and it made me, it reminded me, I see this every now

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and then. So I've been asking people, uh, what they think about it. And so far, you're the second

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person I've asked the first was my wife. And the answer is generally just a blank stare. Uh,

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yeah, I'm, I'm tilting my head like a cocker spaniel right now. So I'm trying to

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get my head around this. It's a regular Ron reaction. That's totally it. Yeah. All right. Well,

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maybe, maybe next time if, if, uh, listeners have some opinion, I want to know about Crescent

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zucchinis and cucumbers, hollowed out cucumbers. Yeah. Yeah. Something we can, anyhow, back to,

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back to, to double clicking, zooming in and coring out, uh, tell us more about the build

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service. What's going on with that? Yeah. So this is neat stuff. This is, uh, using

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cloud native build packs, which are part of the cloud native computing foundation. So that's

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cool. So the idea here though, is, you know, if I have this Docker file world where people

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are potentially building up Docker files to describe what their container looks like, right?

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The Docker files made up, not of just a, you know, my app code, but there's layers that

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represent things like the app server and the OS and other pieces like that. So all of that comes

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together and gets munged together into a container that then gets deployed into an orchestrator like

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Cooper daddy's. So how do I build that? Am I having a developer who is saying, well, here's the base

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Ubuntu image. Here's the app server component. Here's the JVM version of the node JS app base image.

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Here's my code. Here's some other layer. Now you might be using a Jenkins or a concourse or other

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things too, to assemble things. And you're not hand crafting your Docker file. And that's totally

361
00:31:58,620 --> 00:32:02,940
fine. But build packs have been super successful with this, right? The whole CF push, just give me

362
00:32:02,940 --> 00:32:08,160
my code build packs, containerize it for you. So how do you deconstruct? How do you pull that out of

363
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:13,420
being only a cloud foundry thing and say that a lot of people could find value in automatically

364
00:32:13,420 --> 00:32:18,840
packaging and then making it really easy to update an application container? So that's what the build

365
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,700
services. This will run on Kubernetes itself. It's already available now again for people to try out.

366
00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:28,760
And so being able to take this thing and have these build packs, take source code, assemble it, turn it

367
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:33,560
into a container. And again, because of some pretty cool technology we've put together and worked with others

368
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,800
on, when there is a change, so if there's a change to the build pack, and to be clear, build packs are

369
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,620
updated every seven to 10 days. I mean, go look at the Java build pack, go look at the node build pack,

370
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,100
Ruby build pack. Updated all the time because there's vulnerabilities, new versions supported,

371
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,000
lots of cool stuff. So always iterating. So with the build service, when I update, let's say the Java

372
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,920
build pack, we can automatically then rebuild those container images to use the latest build pack

373
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:04,460
version, which brings in all the latest JVM fixes any, you know, patches anything. Developer doesn't

374
00:33:04,460 --> 00:33:09,260
have to go rebuild the container. Now you have this fresh artifact in your registry that can just go to

375
00:33:09,260 --> 00:33:14,160
production. So it handles this sort of day one building day two updating story, which is somewhat

376
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,500
unique. Run this anywhere, run this in the public cloud, run this on your own Kubernetes cluster.

377
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:24,180
Right. Just make it smarter and simpler to assemble code into containers and not have to manage all

378
00:33:24,180 --> 00:33:29,020
the day two stuff. You know, that, that's, that, that touches on another, uh, as, as, as I was reading

379
00:33:29,020 --> 00:33:33,400
through all this stuff and all sorts of other, you know, that there's always not always, there is

380
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:39,040
frequently, uh, uh, a little bit of news from the, uh, we'll call it the pipeline world, the continuous

381
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,360
integration, continuous development world, little investments here. And as you were just going over

382
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:49,240
stuff that we and other people do. And, uh, I guess this kind of thing might be obvious to other people,

383
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:56,340
but just as, uh, there is sort of a need to, to discuss the basics of like event-driven

384
00:33:56,340 --> 00:34:03,260
architectures. I feel like when it comes to IT management to show my, my old foginess, there isn't

385
00:34:03,260 --> 00:34:09,220
quite a thorough understanding of like managing container registries and like how, how vital that

386
00:34:09,220 --> 00:34:15,040
is to the entire process. Like, you know, back, back in the olden days, we used to obsess over, uh,

387
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:20,720
configuration management databases and like why that was all important. Right. And, uh, I don't

388
00:34:20,720 --> 00:34:27,280
know. I haven't come across any like long, boring, uh, like sleep aids when it comes to a registry

389
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,140
write-ups and how to manage them and what to do with them. Yeah, that's a good question. I'm just not

390
00:34:32,140 --> 00:34:37,360
sure. And again, you may have done this in your, your trails around enterprise IT, but I don't think a lot

391
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:42,020
of people adopted the gold image VM story where they would actually bake a VM and then they would

392
00:34:42,020 --> 00:34:45,540
store it in some sort of repository and that's what they would push out. They would never, you know,

393
00:34:45,580 --> 00:34:50,340
patch VMs. They would just do gold images. That's more of a container model. So if you didn't come

394
00:34:50,340 --> 00:34:55,620
from a gold images mindset where you were always kind of baking and updating these sort of base

395
00:34:55,620 --> 00:34:59,780
things and you were just thinking of like, I build a VM, I patch it occasionally, it lives out there.

396
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,400
Like containers don't really work that way. I've got to kind of rebuild it and redeploy it. So

397
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,540
it seems like if there was a, if you made that leap and you pass this sort of gold image story,

398
00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:12,820
there's probably things to learn here to make sure you don't accidentally end up with a bunch of just

399
00:35:12,820 --> 00:35:17,160
dusty old containers running because you have no upgrade story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

400
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:22,320
there's something, uh, maybe I should investigate this. I'll add it to my stack of things I'll print

401
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:28,700
out and, uh, light, light, light fires with, and then cook supposed hot dogs on as I drafted out. But

402
00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:38,280
there is something to the idea of, I don't know, layered versus container things. And, uh, you know,

403
00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:43,760
I think, I think a fair amount of configuration for a long time has been more layered things with, uh,

404
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,100
with automation tools, you know, from the chef and puppet school and things like that, that would

405
00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:54,360
basically layer out and then enforce drift from, uh, your desired configuration, which,

406
00:35:54,540 --> 00:35:59,520
you know, technically I guess happens in container management, but there's, there's something

407
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:06,420
much different about it than a, uh, continuous, uh, as, as, as we say in another context, repaving

408
00:36:06,420 --> 00:36:11,420
of things. Uh, but anyhow. Yeah. I don't think, I don't think you have a choice in a container world

409
00:36:11,420 --> 00:36:14,860
and someone can correct me, one of our listeners, but if I have a container running, I can't patch

410
00:36:14,860 --> 00:36:18,980
that thing, right? I've got to update the image and redeploy it. Yeah. So it's a whole different

411
00:36:18,980 --> 00:36:24,380
mindset than that chef puppet Ansible salt sort of, as you say, prevent drift by just continuing to

412
00:36:24,380 --> 00:36:29,000
reinforce a current state. I don't think that that works. So it's interesting, right? As you say,

413
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,880
I think there's registry best practices that maybe haven't made their way all the way out yet. And

414
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:38,760
we're all learning on this together again. Exciting registries. Exciting. Well, did I, did I, uh,

415
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:44,460
did I miss any items from, uh, specific items from the, the announcements? No, as you mentioned,

416
00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:49,240
also, uh, the RabbitMQ stuff's interesting. We, we highlighted the service mesh again, which covers

417
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:53,960
multi-cluster ingress, which is important for Kubernetes as the, the idea we've been promoting

418
00:36:54,220 --> 00:36:59,020
pivotal with PKS is, Hey, have many small clusters, right? And other folks have talked about that as

419
00:36:59,020 --> 00:37:03,160
well. You don't want the mega cluster that everyone's depending on. There's a, there's a

420
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,620
risk there since so many things still require root access. It could potentially cause trouble. You have

421
00:37:07,620 --> 00:37:12,020
things, if they cause problems, it could take down a bunch of other users. So if I have a lot of

422
00:37:12,020 --> 00:37:16,780
clusters, okay, that's a good pattern. How do I upgrade them? Cause Kubernetes is updating all the

423
00:37:16,780 --> 00:37:20,460
time. And then how do I handle ingress? Cause it's cool if I can deploy my app, but if it takes

424
00:37:20,460 --> 00:37:25,260
another two weeks to get the network routing done, am I really continuously delivered? So

425
00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:29,460
with something like the service mesh, being able to have that multi-cluster ingress as an automation

426
00:37:29,460 --> 00:37:33,580
and more, you know, have that stuff just taken care of as part of a deployment process, that's

427
00:37:33,580 --> 00:37:37,900
pretty cool. So all of those were part of this. Again, many of these are about deconstructing some

428
00:37:37,900 --> 00:37:43,480
of these really value added things that were only in PAS and cloud foundry and saying this should be

429
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:48,440
available to more platforms. The pivotal opinions around how you build code, around how you run

430
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,520
applications, on how you do networking and automation that should be available to lots

431
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,840
of places. Cause these opinions are valuable, especially as we're all trying to figure out

432
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:02,040
this new world. Yeah. Well, you're reminding me there's, there's a, I don't know if you came

433
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:08,300
across this, this fun post from, uh, Jesse Frizzell, but she has, she has an almost, uh, uh, very

434
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:14,480
subtly absurd level of like, let me explain Kubernetes problems in business terms. And, uh, you know,

435
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,160
it's basically just like your system doesn't work. And, uh, and then she goes down some security

436
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:25,520
rat holes, but it is, uh, you know, it's, it's a, it's a good writeup of, as you were saying,

437
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:32,720
like, there's all these things that seem, um, overly nerdy. I mean, I guess that's kind of

438
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:37,040
comical to talk about when it comes to like container orchestration and management, but that seemed to be

439
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:42,780
in overly specific, like worrying about cluster management, but she does a pretty good job of,

440
00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:48,320
uh, kind of summing up why it's good to be overly nerdy with these things. And then also it's always

441
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:55,220
fun to see, uh, people kind of, uh, write in funny ways about, you know, executives like, and, and then,

442
00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:59,800
and then your shareholders get upset. That's right. Yeah. Well, that's why I mean, I had a question

443
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,400
here for you. I wanted to ask you Coté, cause I mean, I think on the, to that point though,

444
00:39:03,740 --> 00:39:07,360
and I'm reading a good book right now, project to product, which one of the points that the author

445
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:12,560
is making is, yeah, it's really good. And this is this kind of disconnect between it priorities

446
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,680
continually be and the other lines of business. And that we're, we're not talking about the same

447
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,520
stuff. We're not talking about value the same way. So, I mean, and an honest question to you,

448
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:25,740
have you seen a business oriented case for why to implement something like Kubernetes in the first

449
00:39:25,740 --> 00:39:30,960
place, or is this more about, Hey, it's it infrastructure optimization. It's fuzzier stuff on better

450
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,560
management or delivery, or do you see that bubble up to, Hey, here are customer facing outcomes that

451
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,980
will come from us deploying this. Do you see, is it just infrastructure or are you seeing actual

452
00:39:39,980 --> 00:39:46,000
business case coming for that? Well, I mean that I'll, I'll take business case to mean two things.

453
00:39:46,340 --> 00:39:52,000
One is like, uh, as it says a business case, I don't, I don't know what the case would be.

454
00:39:52,260 --> 00:39:57,100
I guess the case is an argument to do something, but as, as, as you were alluding to sort of saying,

455
00:39:57,100 --> 00:40:03,500
like we have this, uh, this, this business outcome, which is to say apart from it, nevermind if you're

456
00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:09,540
in the tech industry, that's a different, different thing. Uh, or I don't know, a frustratingly fractalian

457
00:40:09,540 --> 00:40:19,220
recursive thing. But, uh, yeah, like if, if you're just like, uh, I would like to hold on to revenue

458
00:40:19,220 --> 00:40:27,120
share in this car rental business. And so therefore I need to make the user experience better. Like

459
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:32,440
it's not so much that like, you're going to say like, and therefore I must install Kubernetes or

460
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,160
even, and therefore I need to use a containers or even the, you know, therefore I need to do

461
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:42,620
container orchestration. I think. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't really come across like

462
00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:47,780
that baldly stated, uh, sort of thing. It's more of like down in the weeds of like,

463
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:52,820
and therefore I need to have these abilities to do things quickly and like, blah, blah, blah. Right.

464
00:40:52,820 --> 00:40:59,420
Like you want the capabilities that something like that provides. And if as, as, uh, seems to be the

465
00:40:59,420 --> 00:41:05,520
case, like that's, that's, uh, one of the, if not sort of the emerging standard for, uh, managing

466
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:12,220
infrastructure, then it's sort of like, you know, saying, uh, I would like to, uh, write something

467
00:41:12,220 --> 00:41:17,300
down and then, you know, it's not like you just made a business case for a pen or a pencil. It's

468
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:21,500
just sort of like, that's how you do it. And then, so very quickly you get into kind of the second

469
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:27,060
business case, which is like, I need a pencil. Uh, and then you go out and you kind of like make a

470
00:41:27,060 --> 00:41:32,740
business case for which pencil you should need. Like I was, uh, I found out you can go here at the,

471
00:41:32,740 --> 00:41:37,000
the, I'm going to mispronounce it for all the Dutch people out there. So I apologize,

472
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:42,600
but you can go to the, the, the Rijks museum and, uh, the big museum here and they have a library and

473
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:47,760
just anyone can go in there and hang out in the library and get a library card. So I like to go

474
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,280
there to do work. And so don't tell anyone, but I thought I could just go in there to hang out and

475
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:58,960
do my work, even though I wasn't actually doing research. Um, but I took out my, uh, my, my notepad

476
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,760
and my pen and the guy came over and he was very nice. And he's like, Oh, you can't use ballpoint

477
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:09,760
pins in here. I guess presumably cause you might leave an indelible line on something. And so he

478
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,640
gave me a pencil and he gave me a very nice pencil. One of those, you know, one of those pencils that

479
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:19,380
doesn't have an eraser. That's like, you have to sharpen with like a knife or something. And, uh,

480
00:42:19,380 --> 00:42:24,860
I was using it and this is probably like an eight to $10 or Euro pencil. Cause it's for artists.

481
00:42:24,860 --> 00:42:28,880
Right. And like, if you were doing the business case, you just wanted to jot down some ideas

482
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:34,580
why you're out buying a purple pizza. Uh, like, you know, it would be a bad business case to buy

483
00:42:34,580 --> 00:42:40,320
the $8 pencil when you could probably buy 50 pencils for $8 that were pre-sharpened and had

484
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:45,700
erasers. So, you know, once you need a pencil, uh, you make a business case for sort of like,

485
00:42:45,740 --> 00:42:50,340
I guess you would, I mean, I don't know if that's price or performance or just like sanity,

486
00:42:50,340 --> 00:42:58,100
but the business case, I think evolves into more of, uh, let's not overspend, uh, for,

487
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:03,100
for what we need. And, you know, I I've seen over the years, I've seen business cases like that.

488
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:09,400
It's, it's, um, you know, as a software vendor, those are not always fun business cases to play

489
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:15,080
into. Cause you're basically just, uh, showing up to fill out a number in like, you know, cell

490
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:21,740
EE nine, uh, of a spreadsheet. But yeah. So, I mean, that's a long answer. The short answer being

491
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:28,760
like, no, like in, in the, the sense of like a big B business case, it's not like people are like,

492
00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:35,700
uh, Hey board, I'm going to need some money to install Kubernetes. Like it's more of a,

493
00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:37,340
a supporting thing that you have.

494
00:43:37,980 --> 00:43:42,720
That's fair. I mean, I, I, again, your experience in the analyst space too, I figured it might be

495
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:47,080
similar to somebody making a net app decision or putting vSphere in for the first time. Like it's

496
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,320
still valuable, but it's core infrastructure. It's probably not showing up in your annual report

497
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,680
because it's just, it's an enabler for actually building better software. And I think you and I

498
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,760
can find somebody using bare metal compute, who's doing an amazing job of digital transformation

499
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,080
because it's not, it's not dependent on a specific tech. So I was just curious if you've

500
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,220
seen people actually try to turn that into a higher level business case, or sometimes those

501
00:44:08,220 --> 00:44:09,400
accidentally get conflated.

502
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:16,520
Yeah. And, and to your point, I mean, uh, looking forward as they say, uh, it could be the case

503
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:24,200
that following vSphere, right? Like I, I don't know if I ever like witnessed or saw, but I think it

504
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:32,260
was a very real thing that you would have a business case for installing vSphere because the, uh, is

505
00:44:32,260 --> 00:44:37,680
assurity a word? The, the assurity that you would have, that it would reduce your costs by a huge

506
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:44,040
amount, uh, was so strong that if one of your strategies was we should not spend so much money,

507
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:53,760
which is a, uh, boring, but very valid business strategy. Uh, like, yeah, I mean, I, I could

508
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,980
absolutely see that like business cases would be in, in the sense of a capital B, be made around that,

509
00:44:58,980 --> 00:45:05,020
but I don't think, um, and similarly, like with SAS and, uh, some public cloud, like, you know,

510
00:45:05,020 --> 00:45:09,360
there's, there could be a business cases for that, but I don't think, I don't think Kubernetes itself

511
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,860
is sort of new enough that you're just like, you know, going to go in there like you would with,

512
00:45:13,860 --> 00:45:18,660
uh, virtualization in the, uh, the two thousands. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I think we'll,

513
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:23,280
we might just see more platform business cases coming up as people are assembling platforms as

514
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,080
whether that's public cloud, whether that's private cloud. In all those cases,

515
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,680
you're assembling platforms and you're probably not stopping at just the infrastructure. You're

516
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:35,040
figuring out, again, do I need an application layer? Do I need a CICD story? What's my

517
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:40,040
observability play? How am I doing day two and op? So hopefully all those things are part of that

518
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,540
business case. It would be, it seems to me foolhardy to just kind of pin one component of that

519
00:45:44,540 --> 00:45:49,460
platform as the business story. All of it is around getting better value, better customer adoption,

520
00:45:49,660 --> 00:45:54,420
lowering cost. All those sorts of fun, fun outcomes we're after. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I mean,

521
00:45:54,420 --> 00:46:01,420
you know, using my wackadoodle pencil thing again, right? Like, like the, the, the business goal is to

522
00:46:01,420 --> 00:46:07,820
write something down and even, and maybe the vision is I would like to not forget things.

523
00:46:08,700 --> 00:46:13,140
Right. Right. And, and then the strategy is like, write something down and then, you know,

524
00:46:13,140 --> 00:46:19,760
it trickles down to, you know, somewhere below the CIO, the VP of infrastructure probably is like,

525
00:46:19,860 --> 00:46:26,340
oh, pencils, we need a pencil. And so that presents itself as a pencil strategy eventually. And I think

526
00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:31,720
similarly, you know, analogously, you could look at, as you were mentioning platforms and improving your

527
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:37,220
ability to do software development and all of these things that are, there's a word that I try to avoid,

528
00:46:37,220 --> 00:46:44,660
but nonetheless, I will use an enabler, which not in the addict sense of enabler, but whatever the

529
00:46:44,660 --> 00:46:49,820
positive version of that is, you know, you're addicted to success. That's right. That's good.

530
00:46:49,860 --> 00:46:53,920
I think as long as that job to be done, which you're kind of alluding to there is, is traceable from the

531
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:58,500
top. Exactly. There's a job to be done at the C-suite that, that when I'm in IT ops and I'm choosing

532
00:46:58,500 --> 00:47:02,480
between which service mesh to use, or do I deploy Kubernetes or not, or the build service,

533
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:07,300
can I tie it back to that job to be done? Or am I accidentally just causing friction and motion

534
00:47:07,300 --> 00:47:12,540
and activity when I actually need outcomes? Yeah. Yeah. You know, speaking of my, uh, my, uh,

535
00:47:12,740 --> 00:47:19,080
my hot dog, uh, kindling, uh, I was recently writing up, uh, alluding to job to be done stuff. Is that,

536
00:47:19,460 --> 00:47:24,480
is that, uh, is that a thing? Do the kids talk about that? I don't know who the kids are. I just like

537
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:29,880
saying that. Is that, uh, are you find that that's widely used and sort of like, uh, I don't know,

538
00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:34,920
business world. You come across that a lot. Occasionally. I don't know if that's kind of

539
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,320
the secret handshake of people doing a lot of DevOps lean, whatever we want to call, you know,

540
00:47:39,380 --> 00:47:44,120
current modern technology stuff who say that to try to reorient the conversation from sometimes being

541
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:50,440
in the technical guts. Yeah. Yeah. No. Cause I remember reading or I first heard about it from,

542
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:55,340
uh, Horace Deju way back when he was, uh, right in the middle of like analyzing it,

543
00:47:55,700 --> 00:48:01,060
Apple's rise into the world. And, uh, I remember like back then there was no book written about it

544
00:48:01,060 --> 00:48:05,160
or anything. There was just some weird articles you could read, but man, it's, it's a good, uh,

545
00:48:05,420 --> 00:48:11,480
it's a very useful theory that seems highly applicable to, uh, I don't know, let that,

546
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,760
that above the stack thinking that we have in the tech world. And I guess, I guess to be fair,

547
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,880
uh, tell me if I've got this right, but the, the job to be done theory is that, um,

548
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:26,520
to summarize it, the metaphor, and, and I guess sometimes it's literal, but the metaphoric way

549
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:32,000
of thinking about it is that your customer, uh, essentially hires you and, or, you know,

550
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:38,240
meaning your product or service to do a job. Uh, they don't really like hire you. They don't really

551
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:42,960
like buy your product to have the product it's hired to do something. And I guess historically we

552
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:48,040
had, there's it's, this is kind of alluded to with the old, uh, you know, hammer and screwdriver,

553
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,600
like conversations we used to have. I'm kind of forgetting them now, except, you know,

554
00:48:52,980 --> 00:48:55,940
I guess it's like getting a, like getting a picture on the wall, right? Like I don't,

555
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,600
I'm not buying a hammer. I'm buying something to get a hole. And that's not even that my job to be

556
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,420
done is to hang the picture. I don't really care how it happens. And, and there, there's one way of

557
00:49:03,420 --> 00:49:09,520
interpreting this, which, uh, which is my, my favorite, uh, all too, all too clever analysis of

558
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,700
things is like, you know, a, uh, a pizza delivery company wants to become a software company,

559
00:49:14,700 --> 00:49:19,900
not a pizza company. And as I always joke, like, as long as they have a pizza and not a DVD in the

560
00:49:19,900 --> 00:49:25,200
box, they can call themselves whatever they want. So you don't want to like over interpret it. But I

561
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,820
think, I think the canonical example is, uh, the, the, the, one of the people who came up with this,

562
00:49:29,860 --> 00:49:36,260
they call the milkshake man because essentially, well, one, he was a man. Uh, and two, he, he had

563
00:49:36,260 --> 00:49:41,400
been asked by some, someone's probably tracked down who it actually was, but by some, um, what do they

564
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:48,240
call it? Casual convenience, some fast food store to, uh, figure out how to increase revenue. Uh, if I

565
00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:54,500
remember, and, uh, being, being that rare consultant who actually leaves the office and studies what

566
00:49:54,500 --> 00:50:00,440
customers are doing him and his, uh, team went out to a couple of the locations and just sat in them all

567
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:05,380
day and studied what people were doing. And they found this, this oddity that was unexpected that in

568
00:50:05,380 --> 00:50:10,320
the morning, there were a couple of stores that would sell for breakfast, a lot of milkshakes,

569
00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:16,100
which you do not expect in the morning. I mean, maybe the typical, uh, European stereotype of

570
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:20,060
Americans you would expect, but I assure you here are two Americans that tell you that we think it's

571
00:50:20,060 --> 00:50:24,180
weird to have a milkshake in the morning. Now call it a Frappuccino. That's an entirely different

572
00:50:24,180 --> 00:50:29,260
thing, but nevermind that. Uh, but they noticed these people were buying milkshakes and so they

573
00:50:29,260 --> 00:50:34,040
studied it more. And what they found out is that, uh, when they interviewed them is that lots of the,

574
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:39,280
lots of commuters would drive up and they would buy a milkshake, uh, for breakfast. And the reason they

575
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:46,340
would buy it is because one, it was cheap to convenient three. It was very filling, right?

576
00:50:46,340 --> 00:50:50,660
So it gave them, uh, this filling this for breakfast. And I, the fourth is my favorite,

577
00:50:50,660 --> 00:50:57,360
which is like, uh, it had the low potential for being messy, right? Like as opposed to like a breakfast

578
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:03,500
sandwich, which, you know, or, or even worse, like a taco. Now I being a native Texan have mastered

579
00:51:03,500 --> 00:51:09,180
the art of eating tacos in a car, but it's still a very, very risky, nervous activity to do.

580
00:51:09,240 --> 00:51:10,940
It is like eating soup in the car.

581
00:51:10,940 --> 00:51:16,120
Yeah. And I've noticed going back to hot dogs, uh, you know, I have to continually work with my

582
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:21,120
kids about how to hold and eat a hot dog so that it doesn't like mess up. And my poor daughter,

583
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:26,460
she still is, she's still learning how to handle the, the, uh, the, the sandwich sort of construction,

584
00:51:26,460 --> 00:51:32,100
like about 30% of the time, like the, the inside will fall out onto the ground and she gets very

585
00:51:32,100 --> 00:51:36,580
upset about it. But you know, it's a skill to learn not to spill stuff on your face, especially

586
00:51:36,580 --> 00:51:42,500
if you're driving like 60 miles an hour down the highway. So anyways, and that story, I love that

587
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:45,520
story. I thought one of the other reasons too, people were choosing milkshakes is that it took

588
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:49,740
a long time to eat them. So they were purposely killing time on their commute, which is why I think

589
00:51:49,740 --> 00:51:53,840
in that story, somebody else had also come up with milkshakes, but they were thinner and like

590
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,360
people weren't buying. Yeah, no, that's great. The point was like, they're killing time, right?

591
00:51:57,380 --> 00:52:01,540
The job to be done is I'm bored. Let me take a really long time to take this stupid, giant,

592
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,040
frosty milkshake. And that was the point. And that's, that's the job to be done.

593
00:52:05,300 --> 00:52:09,900
Exactly. And so, so the whole bringing it all around without telling you more about my family

594
00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:15,020
and their food eating problems, uh, I should say the mechanics of food eating. It's just, you know,

595
00:52:15,140 --> 00:52:21,340
you, you summarize all of that of like the milkshake is being hired for the job that, that we just

596
00:52:21,340 --> 00:52:26,000
listed, right? They're just being hired for the job to have breakfast in the morning. And, you know,

597
00:52:26,020 --> 00:52:30,420
again, you can go crazy and like, you know, to feel full, to be able to work, to fulfill life,

598
00:52:30,460 --> 00:52:35,500
to ultimately like whatever, but that's a little too far. And so that kind of analysis, kind of

599
00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:40,000
like the pencil and Kubernetes and everything, it's always good to have that idea of like, what is this

600
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:46,760
thing being hired to do? And not only asking yourself that, but as, as the milkshake man and his team

601
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:51,260
ended up doing, like actually going out and discovering what people are doing, what these

602
00:52:51,260 --> 00:52:57,260
jobs are, because I think that's the other angle of it is most of the time, or most of the time when

603
00:52:57,260 --> 00:53:02,800
people have a job, hire a product or a service to do a job, it's not like they know what they're

604
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:09,460
doing. They've just sort of ended up doing that. And so, uh, being able to kind of like highlight that and

605
00:53:09,460 --> 00:53:15,460
draw it out is, uh, is always useful. Hence sort of, you know, my interest in, uh, talking more about

606
00:53:15,460 --> 00:53:20,540
like registries and how they fit in and kind of thinking about, uh, actually being conscious about

607
00:53:20,540 --> 00:53:25,140
using an event-driven architecture. But, uh, no, exactly. Well said. I mean, I think for all this

608
00:53:25,140 --> 00:53:29,620
stuff, look, you and I love talking tech. I love playing with tech. Just remember the point. I think

609
00:53:29,620 --> 00:53:33,260
for most of this, the gist of this stuff, like, why are you doing an adventure of an architecture?

610
00:53:33,260 --> 00:53:38,560
Why are you putting in Kubernetes or PAS? Or why are you doing, just ask that question. Like,

611
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:43,460
those are the best architects I've ever met are the ones who at least ask why at non-annoying

612
00:53:43,460 --> 00:53:47,140
sort of levels. I think that last part is very important. Right.

613
00:53:50,260 --> 00:53:56,900
And extremely difficult. It's a science. Well, at least anecdotally from my experience over the

614
00:53:56,900 --> 00:54:02,220
years, it's extremely difficult for people to do effectively, uh, which, which I, I, I base on the

615
00:54:02,220 --> 00:54:08,880
lack of finding it commonly. There you go. Uh, all right. Well, great. Well, uh, hopefully that gave

616
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:15,240
y'all the listeners a, uh, a good idea of, uh, kind of the, the, uh, what's going on with, uh,

617
00:54:15,540 --> 00:54:19,800
figuring out how, how to fit Kubernetes in the whole, uh, pivotal world. I think it'll be fun

618
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:25,120
over the, uh, the next year to see, to see how people end up using that and how it evolves. And

619
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:30,240
of course, uh, this is a good time to have a reminder that we, uh, we'll probably, uh, be

620
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:35,920
talking about this and other things that, uh, uh, SpringOne platform, which is, uh, what are the

621
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:41,640
dates for that? It's, it's an October, October 7 through 10 in your old hometown. So there's a,

622
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:45,480
there's a reason that most of the main stage talks are about outcomes because we always like to

623
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:49,320
reorient around what matters the most and some great main stage, check out the website,

624
00:54:49,340 --> 00:54:52,780
a lot of the keynotes are already announced. So it really should be an awesome year this year.

625
00:54:52,780 --> 00:54:57,480
We'll have, we'll have to get someone to walk on stage with a milkshake just to, uh, be a, uh,

626
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:01,580
not to say anything about it. Exactly. Have it. Exactly. And I'll, I'll make it, I'll make a

627
00:55:01,580 --> 00:55:07,620
personal offer. If, if you end up coming, uh, I will show you how to eat a taco successfully.

628
00:55:07,620 --> 00:55:10,960
There, there's a, that's a breakout. Like I would do a 30 minute breakout.

629
00:55:11,060 --> 00:55:15,580
Not only eat a taco to avoid spilling it on yourself. We can also try it in a car and I will

630
00:55:15,580 --> 00:55:21,680
also show you, you know, key to this strategy is, is, uh, let's, let's come up with a phrase here is,

631
00:55:22,060 --> 00:55:27,380
is a multi-sided taco consumption management. You've really got to like figure out what's,

632
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,660
you know, there's, you got to work both sides. It's a lot of thinking that goes in there.

633
00:55:31,900 --> 00:55:35,720
So you do that, you do both sides, you top down as well, or you always just left and right.

634
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,860
Oh, now top down. That's a whole, that's a way of life right there. You got to figure that out.

635
00:55:39,860 --> 00:55:43,140
Yeah. My son does that. It looks like he's eating a sandwich. It really bothers me. Like eat it the

636
00:55:43,140 --> 00:55:48,420
sides, I think left and right. Right now. See when I eat my own tacos, I don't mind a top downer

637
00:55:48,420 --> 00:55:53,800
approach because I, I spend a lot of time thinking about like, so when you got the taco laid out,

638
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,100
you're going to fold it up and you don't want to end up. Well, I shouldn't say you,

639
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:01,560
I don't want to end up with basically layers where it's just lettuce on the top and cheese. Right.

640
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:07,000
And then like, I want it mixed together. Cause I enjoy my, my idea of a taco is it's like a

641
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:11,860
melange of things, right? Now a burger is a slightly different, a burger is done on a different,

642
00:56:11,860 --> 00:56:17,040
um, plane, I guess. Right. Cause you think about how you consume a burger or a sandwich,

643
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:23,720
it's, it's, it's a perpendicular to a taco. So instead of spreading it out vertically,

644
00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:28,080
you spread it out horizontally. So in each bite, you have a high chance of getting all of the

645
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:33,120
different items. But, uh, with a taco, you have to put a lot more thinking into how you achieve that

646
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:38,380
in the, uh, the vertical mode. But, uh, I'm happy to discuss this even more in depth.

647
00:56:38,380 --> 00:56:41,740
Yeah. That's my biggest takeaway from this episode with actual demos.

648
00:56:44,220 --> 00:56:49,200
I might have to, uh, if, if I get a line of people, I might actually have to, uh, you get a

649
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:54,060
wine spit bucket. So I don't eat the taco, which would be sad, but yeah, we'll just get one of those

650
00:56:54,060 --> 00:56:57,620
little placards and put it in the cafeteria area at the conference and just like come by and watch

651
00:56:57,620 --> 00:57:02,040
Coté eat tacos. That sounds good. That sounds good. Yeah. Well, uh, if you're interested in that,

652
00:57:02,100 --> 00:57:06,860
uh, also there'll be a pretty good conference going on. Uh, you can go to SpringOne platform.io

653
00:57:06,860 --> 00:57:12,660
and, uh, I think there's still a two or $300 discount, uh, going on. If not, you missed out,

654
00:57:12,660 --> 00:57:18,460
uh, but you can check that out. And as always, uh, this has been Pivotal Conversations. Uh, when,

655
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:24,540
when, uh, I, I remember to actually click publish instead of relying on the schedule publishing service,

656
00:57:24,540 --> 00:57:29,140
you can see the show notes for this and other episodes at pivotal.io slash podcast.

657
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:35,500
And, uh, I think, uh, right before this episode, you must've heard a, uh, a great interview I had

658
00:57:35,500 --> 00:57:41,380
at pivotal Paris, uh, going over protosteller and, uh, with, with, uh, with Frank, the, uh,

659
00:57:41,380 --> 00:57:45,080
pivotal labs manager who worked on that. And there's going to be some other episodes from

660
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:50,200
pivotal Paris, uh, that you can hear that are fun field interviews, but you can go there and see,

661
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,680
uh, all of the episodes we have in the, the pivotal world. Also,

662
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:58,980
you can just go directly to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations and, uh, check them out in

663
00:57:58,980 --> 00:58:03,940
more detail and, you know, subscribe wherever it is, just in case, like you're wondering, what is

664
00:58:03,940 --> 00:58:08,920
this? How did I end up listening to this? Now, you know how you can listen to more if you weren't

665
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,420
shocked. So with that, we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye.