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okay so one thing that i've noticed here with having mick on as our guest this week

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so i think this is at least our third australian on the podcast this year correct me if i'm wrong

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jeff but you know we had dr nick we had tammy nick and tammy those are the two that came to

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mine i'm trying to think if we've had anyone else has joe been on uh no no that's definitely there's

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some white space there we could fill in we've had a couple brits as well but you know i've got a

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special place in my heart for australians so it's you know i feel like this we're on a roll we should

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probably keep this going yeah the only one other one i can think of actually is another mick and he

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might be from new zealand i don't know and i know that could be mick friedman is he australian

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he's definitely that from that part of the world and i don't know if my ability to pick up accents is

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good enough to distinguish between the two but i think he's australian i think mick can now can

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this mick with a k can confirm right so i don't know mick friedman but i know i could possibly know

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his brother and if that's the same family then yes they are from sydney australia yeah well so that's

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what's great is that it's like you you're like oh i don't know him but i know his brother because

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it's us we're all australians and so

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just just like any time i've been in australia i was like oh do you know my cousin

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yeah i totally do right it's like she's my gp um i do have a cousin in australia who's a gp

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she's lovely cool so anyways we uh mick uh thank you for for joining like i have to say like mick with

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a k now to specify that not the other australian mick who was on but um mick tell us a little bit

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about your your role at pivotal um and you know obviously any of your favorite australian pastimes

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that you want to throw in there i really loved your comments about your signature hats that you

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are always wearing um but either of those things i think are really relevant to the conversation today

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cool so just a little bit of background hi my name is mick i am known as aussie lunix online

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i moved to san francisco in january this year to join pivotal as a platform architect and platform

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architecture means we're a field engineer so i spend a bunch of time doing um pre-sales work but

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majority of my time is post-sales work helping customers be successful and my focus is on um platform

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engineering teams so more an ops focus than a developer focus and that comes from my background

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of always been working in ops so in the 90s i mean a friend we had a quote we wanted faster internet

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and someone else had to pay for it out of that came we built an isp so we got to surf the backbone

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1997 i think it was we were a nice fast internet and someone else was paying for it until we worked out

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there's actually work to be done to make that thing happen so i discovered linux and became a system

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administrator so i started there i've stuck with the telco isp industry pretty much all my career

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um then naturally moved into the cloud side of things so 2015 i did a contract with the aussie

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government the australian government and we were a pivotal customer and that was to implement um

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we implemented back then it was just pcf which is people application service and the idea was to

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enable developers to live to deliver software at speed but with safety so that they could then

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showcase a more modern way of delivering software that was built for the people of australia not for

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governments okay so that kind of kind of put pivotal on your radar and then here we are 2019

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and you actually joined pivotal while you were still in australia before you moved up here

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i i had my offer my formal offer i did some contracting work with pivotal in australia whilst

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navigating the visa process to move over here there's um without a university degree it's a little bit of a

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challenge to to get your visa here it's not impossible it's just a lengthy process okay so still in that

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time yeah i did some contract work okay because i just remember meeting you at a pivotal kind of

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internal thing and your hat you know i mean you and your hat uh like gosh what was it like 20 it was

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17 2018 maybe anyways yeah it was 2018 yeah so it was early 2018 so it's like oh yeah you've been

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you've been in with the crew for a while yeah okay that's interesting and i didn't realize you kind

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of came in through that um that uh that work that we had been doing with the the australian government

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yeah so so that time there that changed some of my perspectives of what your role is in systems

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administration as in ops engineering to more of i my role is no longer i'm building servers or technology

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i'm enabling developers and i'm doing what it takes to enable developers to write and deliver software

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that then enables the value for the end user that's really a pivotal moment can i use that

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sorry no pun intended um sorry not sorry no that's right so yeah it was it was a big change for me

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um in my career to to have a different focus and it's been a really good change yeah yeah no that's an

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interesting like you know you had this aha moment and it's sort of it's changed the course of make

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with a case trajectory through you know time and space literally and i'm just space-wise you know you

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coming to the us um and so now this kind of relates back to what you and i were talking about the other

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week which i thought would be really interesting for our listeners to hear about which is how how you've

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used net promoter score to actually get other people to have some of the same aha moments so maybe you could

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kind of start that story at the beginning for folks um but i'm just going to put that teaser out there

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as like this is this is where the story of mick with a k and the rest of the podcast are going to

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come together but yeah tell us a little bit you the you don't have to name names but the client you're

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working with what what was going on like like i'm sure what many enterprises would recognize in their own

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you know environments sure so what so it took me a little bit of time to come to that realization that

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my role and when i say time we're talking you know maybe a decade of being engineer before it really

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dawned on me that hey i need to actually listen to what my developers need to so that they can be

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efficient at their jobs and safe and then it's not that easy though it's not something that's common

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in our industry around you go to conferences and tech conferences are mostly about the tech side of

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the role and i remember being at a container conference once and put a proposal in for a just

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a lightning talk and i was told it must be technology it can't be like philosophy or process or anything

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and i was i felt a little annoyed at that because there was a lot of talk around um it felt very

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resume at this conference it was like everything was about what's the latest technology and what no one

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was asking why like why would you want this thing in a business or a company and how does it help

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your developers it was just about how cool is this technology so to help so working with when i first

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started here in um san francisco with pivotal i was just you know i've got a few customers i work with

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one of the signs i noticed was very much we're building you know for ourselves not for our developers

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and to take them on the journey of that mindset change i tried to think of you know um a few different

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things we could do and i noticed they were currently only being measured by velocity as in like agile scrum

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we did 40 points this week as a team next week they did 10 and then they got questioned what have you

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all done this week if you only delivered 10 and it didn't feel very good for the team that's like

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what's not visible in that was a we spent a bunch of time on you know um outages and you know reactive

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type work and we had a day where it was an all-hands staff meeting so therefore velocity's down

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so we as a team you know as a pivotal team working with that customer we said what metric could we

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measure them by that showed a more accurate um journey towards helping the company on their

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innovation journey and to help change their mindset so i want to pause you there though because

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you talked about okay so they're being measured on velocity velocity because they're working in these

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agile scrums and i mean isn't isn't agile good isn't that a good thing

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sure but um one size doesn't fit all if you're in an operations team agile itself it's a big word but so

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say scrum is very uh fixed time fixed scope and you get a lot of uh reactionary work during the week

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even early in your innovation journey so you'll have you know lots and lots of uh say defects or

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outages or you know problems support requests and and if you've got a lot of that work and it doesn't

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fit in it will affect that your velocity and if your management's only measuring your team by that

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velocity number it's not a great indicative of a is the team delivering value and b the other thing is

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it can be gamed if it's the metric that's being measured all of a sudden every story is 10 points

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regardless whether it takes five minutes to implement or it's really hard and it takes two days

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it's 10 points and before you know it the team's delivering 100 points of velocity and they look

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awesome but the how much value have they delivered we haven't measured it we don't know so yes we

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started with you know we need to go on a journey to changing mindset and that was let's measure them

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on the let's start asking the developers hey are you happy with your you know the journey of getting

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your code into production and that was done so there's a legacy platform in place at the company i'm

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working with and the new pivotal application service platform the the net promoter score survey was

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it was crafted in a very simple way in that it asks a question and that's pretty much it it is are you

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happy with your current platform do you use pcf or legacy and why did you give would you recommend it to

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to another developer and why so at the end of that first survey they got a score that they promote it

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for those that don't know never promote a score it you're working out a score between zero i'm sorry

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minus and positive 100 you if you're above zero you're doing really well so

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a combined score that got was i think it was minus 27 which is and most of the reasons given

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were that there was zero communications from the platform team like we don't know who you are we

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don't know what you do other than there's a thing and there was a real wake-up call for them and and

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you know one of the comments was you know this is a bitter pill to swallow but we hear it loud and clear

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that we actually need to do better and talk to our our users our customers as such

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so so we changed the mindset dramatically like overnight almost and and so it had the effect

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that we were after on its own though it's not going to be the only metric again a single metric on its

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own can be gained and i'm watching i'm watching some of that happen already it's like

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you know what are the things we can do just to get that score up yeah where's the value in for the

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actual company itself if you walk around you know oprah style you get this you get this and everyone's

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happy sorry the developers are happy does that mean value for the company that was being delivered

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yeah well that's interesting to see how like especially over time those things are going to

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get balanced but it's it's interesting to hear how this has been um a wake-up call for that team to

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sort of move from as you worded it like we're building this for ourselves right we're sort of the

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infrastructure software team but we're just you know this looks like cool tech this is what we're going to

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build to suddenly like oh we get it we need to build stuff for developers what what have you seen

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um on the positive side what have you seen happen as a result of you know taking that hard pill of

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okay wow that's a really negative score and how has that changed that team's you know everything right

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how they're they're organized what they're working on anything yeah so

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they've from there one of the key things that they've they're working on is that teams are starting

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to onboard and it's a small platform team and they've really starting to feel the pressure of

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having lots and lots of people trying to onboard at once and it's become very obvious that you can't

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scale supporting that many people on your own with a small platform team so you need a community and

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the idea of net promoter score find your promoters and make use of those promoters so the idea is find the

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developers that like your system they understand it and they'll champion it so they become key players in your

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community to help scale the support so the basic you know one-on-one questions no longer come to the

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platform team the community can start answering some of these themselves so what there's what's happening now is there are

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brown bag sessions happening regularly and they're very well attended there's been a whole bunch of other

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community stuff happening they now have a product website that's and they've branded so they've branded their

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products it is a it's not often you see someone branding their infrastructure as a product it has a name

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name that has meaning and meaning to the area and they've got a website now that has a whole bunch of you know like

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faqs how do i on board where do i get extra help and there's still a lot more work to do in that space

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but already they've started that hey our developers didn't know who we were or what we do

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and we need to listen to them so now they've they've they've done a lot of work around that

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okay um and you know tell tell us a little bit more about just the the process of

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setting up and running that net promoter score because this is an area actually jeff i know has done

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some research in um you know the net promoter score process and it can be like you know it's

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it's it's interesting it's designed to be relatively easy a sort of simple high level metric that a lot

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of people can grok relatively easily except what goes into actually getting that number

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is a little bit more complex so i think folks would really benefit from hearing just how this

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how this whole process of setting up um an internal net promoter score for uh an internal infrastructure

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you know platform team to their developers you know even going back to getting people

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on board with doing it at all like and then like the mechanics of how did you do it yeah okay so

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great topic the the net promoter score you'll we've all probably come across them in our

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time that we spend online it's you know at the end of a conversation or an end of a transaction

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you'll get a out of zero to ten how likely would you be to you know recommend this service to your

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friend and the idea is so zero all the way up to four is classes not likely at all

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you know the five and six you're it's a neutral and all that so zero to six is classes a detractor

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you would not promote the product seven and eight are classes passive nine and ten are classes promoters

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and they're extremely likely to recommend this service to others so the way we worked this

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out was um the questionnaire was sent out as a just a simple google form a really simple google form

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it was sent to all developers not just those using the pivot location service and the idea of that was to

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gauge a two things one we can work out the um developer happiness across the entire company so

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for the executives they can see that actually yeah our entire development teams are not exactly happy

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with the way things work or they are and that we're getting better at stuff the other one is the pivotal

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application uh pivotal platform team the team there can they can work out that they're improving and

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they're building the right things they um and that's probably the most important part so we take

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these scores from each individual person then they're added up and you take i'm gonna get this

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right all your subtracting the percentage of detractors yeah from the percentage of promoters

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that's where you come up with your mps so it's going to be if it's below if it's above zero

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then you're doing reasonably well so don't be overwhelmed by oh my god it was minus 30

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or it was only two okay and then the neutrals just you don't even you don't count those they're

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they're neutral they don't move the number okay yeah because the idea is they they're not

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that excited they're going to tell everyone the idea is net promoter score is to find out who

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your promoters are okay like who's going to help you scale your support and your community

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things like that and get adoption okay so let's say i mean just just to walk through some numbers

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because who doesn't love math especially when referred to verbally with absolutely no visual cues

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but um you know if you if you had a hundred respondents to a net promoter score then if

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you had uh if 30 were promoters and 10 were neutral and 60 were detractors which means they scored

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anything from zero all the way up to six that's how you would end up with a negative 30 net promoter

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score like as just an example right but you could see how it's like well 30 were nines and tens and

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ten percent worse sevens and eights like you know you kind of get a sense for how hard it is to really

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get that number close to and above zero like you have to really have an overwhelming number of people

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in the nines and tens category yes and it makes a difference in that if you've got a sample size of

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10 000 versus 100 um yeah it's it's a little the numbers will fluctuate a little bit at with only

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say 100 respondents right yeah if you get 10 people that are unhappy the next time and become detractors

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that reflects quite a large number of out of that 100 whereas if it's you know 10 people out of a

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thousand it's much smaller it doesn't really show up as much right but the idea is the nps score is an

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indication measured over a long period of time it's not a hey weekly thing that you're going to measure

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so it's probably worth talking about that so with the cadence with that the this team are using is

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quarterly um so once a quarter they'll send out the survey it goes out again i think in the next few

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weeks to get their second score so to see how they've gone in the last quarter um we'll see i'm

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confident they'll it will be a higher score that you know they've done a lot of work in building a

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community and and you know listening to developers there's still plenty more to do yeah but that's

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good yeah there's there's another thing you mentioned as you were describing okay so we we put together

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we used a simple google form and it seems like the math is actually relatively easy to just

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do on your own um but and you you walk through like the three questions that were asked what i thought

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was interesting is is clearly like one of these questions was geared towards getting an nps that

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was needs to be shared with executives right and it's almost like answering an ex a question that like

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higher level exec leader type people are having um and then other ones might be more immediate

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for that team so to me that's kind of interesting and very thoughtful to be like you know you've got

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limited real estate like the way you run these you don't want to you know ask like 15 questions

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if you can ask one that's great but if you can ask three like thinking about okay who are we going to be

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sharing these scores with in order to motivate change like who do we think needs to change behaviors we know

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that our team might need to change some things so we want something that's going to be really immediate

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for us but we also know that we want you know the the appropriate say executive uh air cover on certain

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things and their buy-in on making changes so we kind of need to set up one of those questions

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to really be like get them motivated uh i don't know if that was how you planned it but to me like that

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seems like a really really good way to go in terms of like don't be greedy with your questions right and

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make them all like this are just what i personally want to know like you got to think about who's who

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are you going to be using these nps scores with is that fair yeah definitely so it wasn't something

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that i'd thought of up front that hey this is going to have a bigger effect it was really about the team

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itself so but by having it so that the questionnaire was sent to all developers not just those that

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were users of this new platform but to everyone and then but having it so that you could pull out the

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metric for either as well as a combined um had a really good effect so you can you can bubble up to

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yeah you know the executives that actually are the way we're working across the board is making

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everyone unhappy so things need to change and then there's a way of measuring that that change

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is increasing and that could be culture it could be all sorts of things but the other one is

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limiting the questions is really i think important if you get a questionnaire every three months it's

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got 15 questions in it it's likely to get you know marked a spam very quickly and your petition

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participation rate will be quite low so the idea is you want to make the barrier of getting the results

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really low so that your participation rate is high so having two or three questions at the most

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it's like which platform do you use are you happy with it and why did you give that score

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yeah jeff is there anything from your kind of poking around on on mps um you know processes and

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whatnot that that you you've done in the past that comes to mind for you yeah well i mean this when i started

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doing some research on this as you know part of the marketing group i was thinking well how can we use

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this you know externally to market to you know potential customers you know hey here's here's a

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great nps score for a pivotal cloud foundry great let's attract some more customers uh but the thing

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that the some of the folks that i talked to when i was exploring this pointed out well it's really a

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great tool for your internal teams as well to get a sense of what's working what's not working

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uh and to help the product teams determine uh well just be well not determined but it's one input that

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they can use as they determine uh how they're going to develop the product new features that kind of

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thing and it helps them understand where they're where they're challenged and where they're doing well

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um but you know i totally echo your point it's it it's a simple score but there's so much that goes

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goes on behind it uh and and nick what you said about keeping it short that's definitely some more

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feedback i got from some of the folks i talked to uh you know keep it keep it short keep it concise

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uh and simple and you're much more likely to get get more people to to answer so um but you know i think

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it's you know it's it's it's deceptively simple but can be very powerful yeah and i think at the end of

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the day it's also the you know the the basic question of like how likely are you to recommend

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this to someone which is the you know you see that wording all over the place that there's a reason why

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that question has bubbled up in across many different industries and across many different products and

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services out there that people have measured as like a very telling indicator right it's just a signal

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but it's a it's a telling signal it's like would you actually go out and you know tell your friends

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that they should go use this um it sets a really clear and high bar for you know not just like did

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you like it um and so it's interesting to see that starting to get applied internally because we

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usually think of that as you know like hey you know you just downloaded our app and you like

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bought some oranges on some online do whiz bang i don't know i'm i probably shouldn't call things

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whiz bang ever again um but yeah whatever you know it's like we think of that in a very consumer sense

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and thinking about it as just a way to like hey everything that you're working on is kind of like it's your

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product and your customers are you know not just the end customers of the company you work for

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but all these internal people that you're supporting and so how do you find out like

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how am i doing um you know we run into this all the time like internally like in product marketing it's

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like if we were to ever say you know we're going to stop doing this thing um you know people be like

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no no no we we want it we love it but then you try to look at the metrics of like oh are you using it

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like are you recommending it to other people and you know they're not and the other things like if you

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quietly take it away um and then you see who screams that's how you find out if people are really using

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something but that's probably like uh you know that's like a brinksmanship um um uh diplomacy style of uh

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finding this out where it's just like a really simple nps score might tell you like you know is this

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thing on track or not yeah and it helps i think it helps also that by having a measurement like this

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where you can get indicators that you're not keeping your developers happy still is much better than

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waiting until your developers are really dissatisfied and angry and don't want to come to work anymore

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so so you know you're starting to go oh actually we're not listening to our customers or we didn't

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do the quite the right thing we need to improve it's fun it's it's much better to get that early

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yeah so what do you what would you recommend for folks if they you know are interested in going down

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this path which with whatever platform they're building internally right infrastructure folks who

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are you know whether they're they're pulling it together with their own mix of open source and what

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they've got or if they're using um you know pivotal cloud foundry or anything right i think anybody could

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benefit from this what would you recommend as as how they can go about it

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probably the first one is making sure that your developers know why you're doing things so don't

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just give them a surprise you know here's a survey in their inbox engage with them to say hey think we

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want to now listen we want to work with you and engage with you so we can help you be efficient at

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your job then send that survey to out to developers obviously get executive buy-in that you're doing this

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because you want you know everyone to understand it but yeah send it out to the send that small simple survey out

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and don't don't get tempted to put lots of questions in it it's very easy to be tempted by it you're like

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oh i could ask about this feature right and get great feedback but

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there's a that's for another time like this is really just are you happy with my platform or not

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it's it's and send that out and follow that up that's the key sending out a survey and having

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no response or no follow-up um to your developers is not actually it's probably worse than not sending

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at all oh yeah that's a good point like you know hey oh i got this great message that the team really

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cares about my opinion and they want to help and they're going to listen and then i got a survey and

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i took it and then radio silence like that is super awkward and like you're like wait a minute i thought

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i thought you were listening yeah followed up with action yeah so as in you know have a brown bag

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session and say hey here's a new feature we're rolling out we've listened to you and we know that

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this is something that's been painful for you and things like that yeah show that like you know i mean

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do you even go so far as you'd say in this case the team had like a a negative score it was a wake-up

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call do they go back out with that broad-based communication of you know thank you for taking

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a survey this is sort of what we've immediately learned from it and some of the steps we're going

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to be taking uh you know in addition to kind of hey let's do a specific brown bag on that feature

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that we we know is something that you've asked for do you also do kind of the broad high level

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just like hey this was the score like do you do you share that with everybody yeah so the team did

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that they put together a report like a small slideshow presentation and they got up at i think it was a

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lunch and learn where you know it was a room full of people and they said you know they were very

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vulnerable they stood up and said you know we've listened here's the score here's what we need to do

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better and we're going to improve we'll work on this that's the first step hey we got a problem

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and we're going to work on it yeah and they've started on that so the next the next one will be

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really interesting to see the results and i look forward to the journey with them yeah like to make a

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really extreme parallel i've been watching that chernobyl series i haven't okay jeff have you watched

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this i have it's excellent it's really good it's like bizarrely beautiful um it's also like a uh feels

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like a sci-fi horror film except it actually happened um but there's it's really interesting

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seeing how you know these teams at least you know especially like the first episode is really visceral

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like how these teams are dealing with failure and um you know the idea of you you mentioned how you know

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this team got up there and they were they allowed themselves to be vulnerable and kind of show their

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weakness and then you know they use that to kind of move past it and get better um yeah if you want a

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really visceral example of like the opposite of that and like people never wanting to show any

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vulnerability and and therefore making things worse uh watch the chernobyl miniseries on hbo

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um i'll be collecting my my promotion check from hbo for plugging that later i mean by later i mean you

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you know when the half-life of uh uranium 257 or whatever actually is done in 10 000 years um but

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anyways so okay like this is great you know uh make sure the developers know why like that makes a ton

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of sense don't just like surprise them like inbox hey you know like here comes an mps service like what

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is this fake fake mail get the exact buy-in don't get tempted to add questions follow up

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um with communication and action um anything else in your kind of recipe for success with this

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um there's a lot but staying with just like the mps and things like that then i'll say

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one of the key things i learned when my time with the australian government

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was there was a mantra that was used a lot and it was mindset then skill set then tool set

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so this was part of getting the mindset to being product and customer focused the idea is then you

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can work on skill sets next the tool sets actually last so so the idea is that because the tools come

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and go regularly you know we're in technology and the technology changes quite fast so it's not

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necessarily hey what tools can i use today if you don't have the right mindset you're going to be

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implementing the wrong thing right yeah so this was part of that sort of journey take them get the

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mindset set we can work on the skills next and that's probably the next thing is now that they're

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working on you know with customers and understand they have customers the next two things i think are

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finding other metrics that will help tie the work back to actually delivering business value

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so that the mps score is an isolated score of just keeping people happy

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it's and the other one is then around um continual learning so becoming a more of a learning

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organization because the skill set the tool set sorry will change regularly and if you're not a

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learning organization you get left behind pretty quickly okay and that makes sense in the that that's

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a great like order of operations you know the mindset school set uh tool set that's uh it's catchy too

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so i always like that um yeah that kind of that's a clever order of operations that makes a lot of sense

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and then helps kind of prioritize you know what what needs to happen both first and also strategically

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because it's it's almost like those those plans sometimes you have that's like you know vision

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strategy execution uh where it's like your vision might be this kind of big picture over five years and

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then a strategy is like a you know two two year horizon and then the tactics are like what are we doing

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in the next six months yeah and that's execution but you know the execution is going to needs to be driven

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by like the vision otherwise you've got execution that's just for you know random acts of of execution

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and that applies to you know anything right marketing strategies and product strategies and it strategies

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so it sort of maps really well to that order of operations and thinking about you know what's the

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the big vision of where we need to be thinking um before we get into like the tactics of

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what tools are we using um and then i the tying back to business value i think makes a lot of sense

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that's actually something that we're going to be talking about um a lot more on an upcoming webinar

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that we have with uh jeffrey hammond of forester and patrick feeney from hcsc so talking a lot about

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um creating metrics that matter and i know from doing prep work with them they're going to be

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getting into that so i'll include that in the show notes for folks are there any other resources you

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would recommend for folks we can always drop them in the show notes so that the links are handy

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so there's a really good book if you're starting out in this journey there's a great book called um

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project to product i think it's mick kirsten i think his name is another mick yeah i'll double check that

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and um so it it really helps go on that journey of hey we're doing project management you know we've

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got tpms everywhere and um to product it takes you on that journey so it's probably a really good book

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so if you're in a big project based company and you want to go on the journey

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then then that that is probably one of the better books that and when you get into the metrics that

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matter there's the staple and that's the uh the accelerate yes the science of of devops which is

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i think that if you're only going to read two books at the beginning of a of you know a transformation

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journey they're probably the two i'd start okay well that's that's a strong endorsement and i also like

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really short reading lists because i'm a slow reader so um wonderful where you mentioned that

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you're you're aussie linux on twitter where everyone can see you know your hat uh one of the two hats

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you mentioned yeah um and i also i always really appreciate you you know internally like on slack you have

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the emoji with the hat you know kind of it's like kind of a cowboy hat but it's kind of like the aussie

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outback hat you can't really tell on emoji because it's emoji but you just have it embedded as part of

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your you know your handle so it's not you don't have to add it it's just always there it's so the hat

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i i so that's six seven years ago i bought 25 acres of land out of the city like it was pretty remote

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so yeah the nearest my nearest neighbor was a mile away my driveway was three quarters of a mile long

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you get some speed on that driveway no it was pretty rough there were two creek crossings like it wasn't

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exactly a racetrack um but part of that so that was an experiment around living off grid starting from

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it was a clean slate there was no building there was no electricity supply there was nothing and it was a

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really tough experience but a really great experience but when you live out in the land like

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that and it's hot it's you know 100 115 degrees um yeah you wear a hat yeah becomes your best friend

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pretty much so and in australia there's the cubra hat which is the one i'm wearing now it's made from a

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rabbit fur it's iconic aussie hat but my other hat is my winter hat it's made from case so it's a

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it's a um it's made from kangaroo leather a really soft but really tough leather and so it became part

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of an image though when i started wearing it to like meetups and conferences it just sort of stuck

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right now it's your personal brand and now it's recognizable i can go places and they go oh the

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guy with the hat we need to talk to him again i can't remember my name but yeah um it's especially

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when in like the 90s there's all the news about like the ozone layer like melting away and for some

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reason it was like the holes were over australia yeah and i think i feel like australia got really

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good at making sure that like all school children were wearing hats and sunscreen was like you know

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flowed out of taps or something like that because there isn't actually enough water in australia so

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it's actually cheaper to just turn the tap on and sunscreen comes out i'm joking obviously but

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um you know there's just a family down there so i i have experienced the culture around sun protection

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partly because you know you were all going to get melted by the sun um and and it is actually quite

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hot in australia so i i get it um but it's wonderful thank you for sharing some of your

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your hat stories with us as well um it's good luck welcome i dig it all right we'll we'll have folks

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follow you um on the twitters and of course look out for the the man with the hat at various meetups

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and such thank you thank you it's been great being on