1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,940 Did I tell you about this? 2 00:00:01,020 --> 00:00:05,500 And they said, I've been listening to the Pivotal Conversations podcast. 3 00:00:05,900 --> 00:00:09,120 And if you bulk listen to them, that's not what the kids say. 4 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:10,080 They say binge. 5 00:00:10,660 --> 00:00:15,860 If you binge listen to them, you can start to pick up a lot of background about what's 6 00:00:15,860 --> 00:00:18,320 going on with you two in your lives. 7 00:00:18,820 --> 00:00:25,300 Now, one, as I'm saying this, it occurs to me that you are, aside from your sartorial 8 00:00:25,300 --> 00:00:29,980 choices and how you survive the rain, you're very mercurial about not revealing 9 00:00:29,980 --> 00:00:30,900 very much about you. 10 00:00:30,980 --> 00:00:34,880 I mean, no one really even knows you could live in Kansas City, Antarctica. 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,240 I don't think people even know where you live. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:38,640 Wow. 13 00:00:39,500 --> 00:00:40,140 No, that's true. 14 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,940 I maintain tight control over my personal life. 15 00:00:43,180 --> 00:00:43,580 That's right. 16 00:00:44,500 --> 00:00:47,440 Now, that said, I wanted to give an update. 17 00:00:47,620 --> 00:00:49,220 Everyone knows I'm here in Amsterdam. 18 00:00:49,420 --> 00:00:51,420 Today in Amsterdam, very hot. 19 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:59,060 And I don't know how Celsius works, but it's 91 degrees, according to my Apple Watch. 20 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:01,520 Fahrenheit, which is hot. 21 00:01:01,620 --> 00:01:03,780 And the problem is there's no air conditioning here. 22 00:01:04,260 --> 00:01:06,080 I mean, it's not standard. 23 00:01:06,460 --> 00:01:07,300 It's not normal. 24 00:01:07,660 --> 00:01:12,420 So you kind of, like I was biking home from picking up the kids and, you know, it was hot, 25 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:13,380 but not okay. 26 00:01:13,380 --> 00:01:17,480 And then it dawned on me that I'm not going to go home like I would in Texas to an ice 27 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,000 cold house to cool off. 28 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,100 I mean, you're wearing those wooden shoes. 29 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:23,520 Those really air it out, though, don't they? 30 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:24,020 They do. 31 00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:24,360 They do. 32 00:01:24,420 --> 00:01:28,400 They actually smell a lot better than you would think they would, being wood. 33 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:34,820 You just use a coarse-grain sandpaper after a couple hours, just clean out all the gook. 34 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:36,680 I completely buy that. 35 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:43,380 I was talking to one of my neighbors, and he said, I asked, speaking of being slightly, 36 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:45,060 is the right word, obsequious? 37 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,160 I said, so do people swim in the canals around here? 38 00:01:49,700 --> 00:01:54,520 And he was like, oh, yes, everyone swims in the canals, lots of people. 39 00:01:54,700 --> 00:01:59,880 And so I said, yeah, like, is it, I mean, is it, like, is it, like, clean? 40 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,940 And he's like, hmm, not really. 41 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:09,040 And then I said, so do you swim in the canals? 42 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:10,720 And he said, no. 43 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,140 If you do, I would take a shower afterwards. 44 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,880 So I think, you know, he gave a good review. 45 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,400 But I think there's, I'm learning this pattern of when you ask for recommendations is you 46 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,960 ask specifically, this is like a net promoter score, I guess. 47 00:02:26,060 --> 00:02:29,000 You ask specifically, like, would you do this, right? 48 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,340 Never mind what you think is the situation. 49 00:02:31,900 --> 00:02:37,000 So I guess what I'm trying to say is, is if we don't, if we don't publish or record next 50 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,920 week, it's because I, uh, I dove into the canal and might've punctured my head with a 51 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:43,920 bike that, uh, had fallen on there. 52 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:44,660 Oh my goodness. 53 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:45,240 Yeah. 54 00:02:45,260 --> 00:02:47,280 You've got lock jar tetanus or something. 55 00:02:47,460 --> 00:02:48,040 That's good. 56 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:49,600 Uh, yeah. 57 00:02:49,620 --> 00:02:53,480 I mean, I love that he wouldn't have volunteered that if you didn't ask, like, I'll go swim 58 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:54,020 in the canals. 59 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,060 There's bodies and whatever else in there. 60 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:56,560 It's fine. 61 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:57,200 Exactly. 62 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,000 That's, that's, that's a, uh, uh, I guess it might be a slightly relevant to, uh, our 63 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,740 guest here, which you heard a little bit before, you know, like you find, you've got to find 64 00:03:04,740 --> 00:03:08,240 out how to interview people appropriately to like pull the information out of them. 65 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,600 Otherwise, otherwise they, uh, they don't tell you things that are helpful. 66 00:03:12,220 --> 00:03:12,620 Right. 67 00:03:12,620 --> 00:03:16,140 You swim in canals full of barnyard animals or whatever else the problem is. 68 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,640 There are, there is a swan family that lives in the canals with the mother swan. 69 00:03:20,780 --> 00:03:26,840 And well, you know, I don't want to be presumptuous, but let's just, let's be figure out, you know, 70 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:27,240 swans. 71 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,420 Probably you got the, the mother and the father swan and, uh, they've got about maybe six 72 00:03:31,420 --> 00:03:32,540 or seven swan babies. 73 00:03:32,540 --> 00:03:36,340 And I feel like if I encountered the swan family in the canal, I would be toast. 74 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,520 They would do away with me. 75 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:39,480 Yeah. 76 00:03:39,780 --> 00:03:40,880 That's their natural habitat. 77 00:03:41,140 --> 00:03:41,820 Yeah, exactly. 78 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:43,400 Well, why don't you introduce yourself guest? 79 00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:44,940 Awesome. 80 00:03:44,940 --> 00:03:48,020 Uh, thanks for that, uh, awesome anecdote. 81 00:03:48,620 --> 00:03:55,000 Uh, I'm Alex, I'm a staff product designer, uh, pivotal labs and up here in beautiful Seattle. 82 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,580 And, uh, yeah, I'm excited to be here with both of you. 83 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,520 Now, I, uh, I assume you and Richard ran into each other. 84 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,560 You were chatting maybe around the coffee and, uh, yeah, yeah. 85 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:07,800 I see him around. 86 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:13,160 I don't know, you know, always learning new things about Richard, especially on this podcast. 87 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,760 But, uh, uh, it's always been a pleasure. 88 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:17,960 That's good. 89 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:18,380 That's good. 90 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:19,720 Tell us one new thing. 91 00:04:19,780 --> 00:04:22,260 Is he, uh, how much coffee does he drink a day? 92 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,520 Do you, uh, do you see him surfing over there? 93 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,520 Uh, we have really good coffee up here in, in Seattle. 94 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:36,820 And so I'm sure he imbibes, uh, a good amount, but, uh, I don't know if he's the top, uh, 95 00:04:36,820 --> 00:04:37,460 consumer. 96 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,960 I mean, there are folks who are really... 97 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,580 I mean, Coté, we've, Coté, we've done a podcast for two years and you don't know I 98 00:04:44,580 --> 00:04:45,200 don't drink coffee. 99 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:45,700 Oh, no, no. 100 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:47,240 I was just about to chime in with that. 101 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:54,880 If, uh, if, uh, well, at first I wasn't testing, but then my memory, uh, I've tried to explain 102 00:04:54,880 --> 00:05:00,060 to my family that my memory is like five minutes behind reality and, uh, it comes in. 103 00:05:00,060 --> 00:05:04,380 But yes, I, I do remember, I guess if you were to go look at the, uh, the fan Wikia for 104 00:05:04,380 --> 00:05:10,500 Pivotal Conversations, you could look up episode, I don't know, 98, where, uh, we discovered 105 00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:12,140 that Richard does not drink coffee. 106 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:13,800 Yeah, Richard doesn't do hot drinks. 107 00:05:14,020 --> 00:05:17,680 Yeah, but I mean, I'm, I'm really owning the, uh, the Coke Zeros in the Seattle office. 108 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,060 Oh, I see, I see. 109 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:20,800 Okay, okay. 110 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,440 Your little, uh, your little, who's the, uh, who's the, uh, man, I'm going to have to wrap 111 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,840 up this inanity at the beginning, but who is the, um, who's the, Carl Lagerfeld there? 112 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,620 Carl, he, he, uh, recently passed away. 113 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:34,100 Oh, Lagerfeld? 114 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,780 But he infamously drank Coke all the time, diet Coke all the time. 115 00:05:38,780 --> 00:05:42,320 So, uh, now it's not Coke Zero, but I think you're in good company. 116 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:43,860 You've made some of those decisions. 117 00:05:45,540 --> 00:05:46,020 That's right. 118 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,400 All right, well, uh, let's go over some news first in the tech world to remind ourself 119 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,140 of, uh, why we're here. 120 00:05:52,140 --> 00:05:56,640 And then, uh, we'll, we'll talk a little bit with, uh, with Alex and see what's going on 121 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:57,020 with that. 122 00:05:57,060 --> 00:06:00,960 And as always, if you have anything to contribute to the news items, Alex, feel free to, uh, 123 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,180 to chime in or not. 124 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:02,540 Awesome. 125 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:09,320 Uh, well, uh, there's, there's a new, uh, Pivotal Cloud Foundry release out, I believe 126 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:10,220 2.6. 127 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,000 You wanted to tell us what's in that, Richard? 128 00:06:12,780 --> 00:06:15,840 Yeah, depending on when you publish this, you'll actually be breaking the news since I don't 129 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:20,360 think we've published a blog post, but it is, uh, going live today here this, uh, Tuesday. 130 00:06:20,620 --> 00:06:23,240 So there's a lot of good stuff in there for Spinnaker and Concourse. 131 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,380 First time, if you're doing CI, CD stuff with Spinnaker, really sophisticated deployments, 132 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:28,780 that all works great with PCF. 133 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,420 Now, uh, we've had things like sidecar processes so that you can deploy an app and have a little 134 00:06:33,420 --> 00:06:37,560 process sit next to it and do things like, you know, access the file system or do I have 135 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,360 the transformation or things like that. 136 00:06:39,620 --> 00:06:40,880 Uh, there's also app revision. 137 00:06:41,060 --> 00:06:45,360 So once you deploy something, the PCF and PAS, you can actually roll back to a previous 138 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:46,340 version very easily. 139 00:06:46,340 --> 00:06:47,700 That's the first time you could do that. 140 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,880 Uh, we've generally available the AWS service broker. 141 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,620 So connecting to all the sort of data services and machine learning stuff, all that's readily 142 00:06:56,620 --> 00:06:57,540 available now as well. 143 00:06:57,540 --> 00:07:03,400 So lots of good stuff in there, some KS updates and more stuff for Bosch aficionados and things 144 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:03,840 like that. 145 00:07:03,900 --> 00:07:06,280 So a lot of good stuff in two six that's out today. 146 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:11,400 And, and then, uh, somewhat related, you know, in the world of developers, just, just, uh, just 147 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:12,960 briefly to kind of as a pointer to it. 148 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,980 So I think it was a jet brains came out with their developer survey and I forget how many 149 00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:21,740 years they've done this, but I think it's one of those, uh, reliable, uh, yearly sort 150 00:07:21,740 --> 00:07:23,200 of things that you can start to look at. 151 00:07:23,340 --> 00:07:27,520 And, uh, we talked about it a little bit on my other podcast software defined talk. 152 00:07:27,540 --> 00:07:34,760 Last, uh, I was going to say last year, last week, excuse me, but, um, I think, I think 153 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:41,100 one, as always, you see that, uh, Java and the spring framework is, is very widely used 154 00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:41,340 there. 155 00:07:41,340 --> 00:07:43,600 Uh, you know, those are perennial favorites. 156 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:49,100 And I think, I think, I think the other, the other angle, which I talked about on, on 157 00:07:49,100 --> 00:07:52,360 that other podcast a little while ago that, that I think is, it's always interesting to 158 00:07:52,360 --> 00:08:01,180 look at this is, um, how ubiquitous, but sort of unchanging the adoption of things like unit 159 00:08:01,180 --> 00:08:06,720 test and, uh, continuous integration and things are so like with unit testing, it's at about 160 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,800 like, I don't know, 70, 75%. 161 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:14,860 And, um, I think, I think as, as any sort of like NBA spreadsheet jockey will tell you, 162 00:08:14,860 --> 00:08:18,920 like your, your market share is never really going to get above that except maybe for breathing 163 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,520 oxygen that has very good market share in the triple digits. 164 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:28,420 Uh, but like, I, I think, you know, so maybe unit testing is like the, the height that we 165 00:08:28,420 --> 00:08:29,680 can achieve around 70. 166 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,620 But then if you look at like build pipelines and stuff, it seems to be hovering around like 167 00:08:33,620 --> 00:08:39,900 30 or 40% or maybe even lower, which going back to, uh, around 2014 or so when I was doing 168 00:08:39,900 --> 00:08:43,700 a roundup of this time and, and different, I think it was info queue surveys back then I 169 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:46,800 would look at, but, uh, it was kind of at a similar level. 170 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:52,220 And so, you know, without getting all nerdy about how surveys work and stuff, like it seems 171 00:08:52,220 --> 00:08:56,600 like, uh, you know, speaking of like Spinnaker and concourse and stuff, there's, there's plenty 172 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,080 of room for people to automate their builds more. 173 00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:00,300 Hmm. 174 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:01,780 No, it's a good point. 175 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,620 I noticed that too, on that survey, some of the, the main points there on how many folks 176 00:09:05,620 --> 00:09:10,640 were doing CICD, how many were doing not unit was popular, as you mentioned, but integration 177 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:11,760 test was fairly low. 178 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:13,040 So that was interesting. 179 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:13,700 Some other stuff. 180 00:09:13,700 --> 00:09:19,160 I mean, you mentioned boot and even Apache Tomcat, which was a leading contributor of 181 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,560 66% of the app server usage. 182 00:09:21,660 --> 00:09:27,360 21% was number two and spring boot was also 60 something percent, just 12% for the next framework 183 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:28,760 that most popular. 184 00:09:28,940 --> 00:09:31,920 So cool to see some of these, these pivotal technologies take over. 185 00:09:32,020 --> 00:09:36,660 The other thing that jumped out to me, I don't know if you noticed it was 70% are happy with 186 00:09:36,660 --> 00:09:38,340 their database and not planning to migrate. 187 00:09:38,820 --> 00:09:41,200 Boy, if you're selling databases, that's a tough space. 188 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,140 Cause everyone seems locked into whatever they have. 189 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:43,540 Yeah. 190 00:09:43,540 --> 00:09:44,540 So I thought that was interesting. 191 00:09:44,940 --> 00:09:46,180 That is, I like that. 192 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:47,680 See, speaking of questions, that's good. 193 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:52,780 Are you happy with solution X that the, the, the way that's phrased is good, but yeah, 194 00:09:52,780 --> 00:09:53,400 no, you're right. 195 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:58,780 It is, uh, yeah, it's hard to move off a database, especially if it just works, which 196 00:09:58,780 --> 00:10:00,400 I think is key to happiness. 197 00:10:00,780 --> 00:10:01,720 Uh, that's right. 198 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:02,880 And it's good enough. 199 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,680 So, I mean, there's so many cool databases out there, but you'd think it's gotta be so 200 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:06,980 tough. 201 00:10:07,260 --> 00:10:09,160 It's brand new apps to get people on there. 202 00:10:09,380 --> 00:10:09,640 Yeah. 203 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:10,040 Yeah. 204 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:11,160 That would be interesting to look at. 205 00:10:11,220 --> 00:10:17,220 Like if that was one database or all the databases you were using, what are you going to do? 206 00:10:17,540 --> 00:10:23,000 Just sort of open up the info pane and preview for the PDF and drill down into it more. 207 00:10:23,340 --> 00:10:24,200 See, see what's in there. 208 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,260 Have you ever noticed, do you ever do this where there's a published PDF? 209 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,740 I like to go look at like a white paper, go look at the info page. 210 00:10:30,740 --> 00:10:34,920 And like most everyone uses InDesign to pump it out, which I guess makes sense. 211 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:41,040 But InDesign, huge market share in the white paper PDF market doing very well there. 212 00:10:41,220 --> 00:10:42,660 True facts, true facts. 213 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:50,140 Uh, well, related to that, uh, we also, uh, to, to PDF market share, not really, but, 214 00:10:50,260 --> 00:10:55,860 uh, we, we have a lot of coverage of the, uh, the spring runtime that offering that we've 215 00:10:55,860 --> 00:11:02,720 released, which bundles up, uh, an open JDK, uh, basically runtime for you and, uh, has 216 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:07,820 support behind it, but also bundles Tomcat into it, uh, which, which I think, uh, covers 217 00:11:07,820 --> 00:11:11,040 most of the scenarios people would have. 218 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,140 I think, I think, as we were just saying, tons of people run Java, lots of people run 219 00:11:15,140 --> 00:11:17,520 Tomcat and, uh, many of them have spring. 220 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,960 So you've got kind of like the three main things, if you're doing Java development that, uh, you 221 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:22,880 would be interested in. 222 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:24,240 Yeah. 223 00:11:24,380 --> 00:11:25,340 Specifically everywhere. 224 00:11:25,460 --> 00:11:30,560 Cause I think people associate us with spring and things like cloud foundry versus run this 225 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:35,240 on bare metal, run this on VMs, run it on windows or Linux, run it on Kubernetes in the 226 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,540 cloud on-prem, all of that's now supported. 227 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:41,700 So if you're looking for that full stack Java support, Pivotal actually has a pretty good 228 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:42,180 story now. 229 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,920 Specifically everywhere is a phrase I'm going to start using. 230 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,580 I think that, uh, that points out the totality of something. 231 00:11:49,980 --> 00:11:50,620 It does. 232 00:11:50,940 --> 00:11:54,640 So if you, there's a, there's a lot of other exciting things, but if you were to pick out 233 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,120 one more, Richard, what do you think is worth highlighting? 234 00:11:57,660 --> 00:11:58,720 One more news item. 235 00:12:00,220 --> 00:12:04,600 Yeah, there's a, uh, I put in here, there's a Kubernetes release that just came out one 236 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,420 15 and that was actually led by a pivotal person, Claire, which was pretty cool to see 237 00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:10,720 that have the other thing I tweeted yesterday. 238 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,520 Cause I did a quick look and saw like how, how well is everyone keeping up? 239 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,500 Cause a year ago, it seemed like everyone was running like their cloud service or their 240 00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:21,600 private Kubernetes thing on the latest version, but has everyone caught up? 241 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:27,920 And I thought it was interesting that, uh, Amazon's elastic, uh, Kubernetes service, uh, 242 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:34,040 there's AKS and Google's GKE are all defaulting to still one 12 Pivotal is doing one 13. 243 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,440 We'll actually ship one 14 in our PKS update coming up. 244 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:38,600 Red hat's also one third. 245 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,000 So just pointing out, and you know, you always trail a little bit, but it seems like potentially 246 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,780 that lag between the full release and this being available in some of the commercial and 247 00:12:47,780 --> 00:12:49,640 cloud prices is a little thinning a bit. 248 00:12:49,740 --> 00:12:53,460 And just to me, China drives home, it's hard to keep up to date, even on quarterly releases 249 00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:54,540 for the cloud providers. 250 00:12:54,540 --> 00:12:59,900 So hopefully a normal, a normal customer is Kubernetes has a strategy for keeping up to 251 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:03,480 date because it is hard and thinking you're going to manually do that in all your clusters 252 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:04,440 seems pretty optimistic. 253 00:13:04,940 --> 00:13:09,500 Now, I don't, I don't know if you're working on a new, like maybe your 10th plural site course, 254 00:13:09,780 --> 00:13:16,520 Richard, but maybe, maybe to align with one of your professional hobbies, you could use an 255 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:21,560 example application that basically automatically every day checks which version of Kubernetes 256 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:22,400 is running where. 257 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,380 That would be just a fun little splash page people could refer to. 258 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,860 Like this is probably, this is still the case, but you remember in the, the heyday of the 259 00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:34,880 OpenStack world, I think Mirantis ran this site, but there was a site that would do like 260 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,520 lines of code by contributors. 261 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,220 And then you could see who all the top contributors were for things. 262 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:41,040 People love that. 263 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,200 And I think, yeah, you can see those for, you can see those now for all the cloud native 264 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:46,820 computing fund. 265 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:47,820 There you go. 266 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,820 And I think, I think that, you know, the, uh, which version of Kubernetes are you running? 267 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,460 That's, uh, people would love that similar sort of thing. 268 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:59,180 Just a dashboard information radiator, uh, as they used to call it. 269 00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:01,000 So, so I like these ideas. 270 00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:01,580 Thank you. 271 00:14:01,780 --> 00:14:02,080 Thank you. 272 00:14:02,140 --> 00:14:05,460 If you note that in your, uh, your ice box, that's great. 273 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:10,840 When you're having a Coke zero staring out the window and in Kansas city or wherever it 274 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:11,720 is, you may reside. 275 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,940 Uh, well, uh, with that, why, why don't you tell us what you do around here? 276 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:17,360 Guest. 277 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,600 Uh, Hey, uh, it's great to be here. 278 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,520 Uh, I'm Alex, a staff product designer at Pivot Labs in Seattle. 279 00:14:26,220 --> 00:14:28,020 Uh, yeah, it's great to be here. 280 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,220 What's, uh, so what does a product designer do at Pivotal? 281 00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:32,300 Yeah. 282 00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:33,400 Thanks for asking. 283 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:41,800 So we, uh, work with clients, uh, large and small to both help, uh, build products, but 284 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,920 also help build, uh, that client's user-centered design practice. 285 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:55,720 And so, uh, we typically, uh, have engagements, you know, a few months long, uh, bringing clients 286 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:03,120 to the office, uh, and help them really grow their sense of how, um, they should validate 287 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,940 or invalidate, uh, their assumptions, their experiments into building a product. 288 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,860 I, you know, this is actually, uh, I've been right in the middle of this week of, of trying 289 00:15:13,860 --> 00:15:18,540 to find and write up these kinds of things where basically, uh, well, you use the keyword 290 00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:22,860 there where you're, you're validating and invalidating things, uh, and walking through 291 00:15:22,860 --> 00:15:23,080 it. 292 00:15:23,180 --> 00:15:27,740 And, and, and I mean, I think just, uh, you know, you can anonymize it or whatever, 293 00:15:27,740 --> 00:15:32,920 but like, can you give a couple of examples of like what that looks like, like to give 294 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,700 you the template, like, Hey, I'm working on some software and I think I should have this 295 00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:39,220 feature and implement it this way. 296 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,180 Is that a good idea or not? 297 00:15:41,260 --> 00:15:45,440 Now when I find out like, like what, uh, what are some instances of what that looks like 298 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,560 to give people a sense for what that, that process looks like? 299 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:49,520 Totally. 300 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,440 And, uh, yes, I'll definitely be very anonymous. 301 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,340 Uh, so sometimes it's extremely ambiguous. 302 00:15:56,340 --> 00:16:04,880 And I think that that's where, uh, design, uh, in a well-balanced team with product and engineering, 303 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:14,240 uh, really gives our clients, uh, the most value when they come and actually they oftentimes 304 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:20,000 don't know what their priorities are and they actually have not clearly articulated their 305 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:20,460 assumptions. 306 00:16:20,460 --> 00:16:29,780 And so for example, I landed in an engagement, I think, uh, two engagements ago, uh, my second 307 00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:38,640 day, uh, I was speaking with the chief architect and, uh, we were going through, uh, the different 308 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,780 projects that the team was having. 309 00:16:41,780 --> 00:16:51,640 And, uh, the second priority, uh, we were going into and, and they said, Oh, you know, uh, a 310 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:58,480 VP has told us that, you know, we have to do this project because it's going to unlock 311 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,760 $9 billion worth of value. 312 00:17:02,940 --> 00:17:07,660 And I kind of paused there and I, and I just asked, how do you know that? 313 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:08,960 Right. 314 00:17:10,340 --> 00:17:12,860 And, and they all kind of just stop. 315 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:13,280 Right. 316 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,040 And they're like, thank you. 317 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:20,140 How come no, no one has asked this question, uh, before. 318 00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:21,760 And I was like, really? 319 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:28,460 Uh, and so, you know, breaking that down a little bit, that phenomenon, it, it, it, 320 00:17:28,460 --> 00:17:30,180 it happens at a few different levels. 321 00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:37,920 One is, I think that sometimes people, uh, just at a consulting level, uh, you know, they 322 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:44,500 in their organization may be faced with some inertia or they, you know, are just in a rhythm 323 00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:49,280 and they, uh, need to break out of it to ask those fundamental questions. 324 00:17:49,780 --> 00:17:57,560 And I think that sometimes people, uh, get caught up in when they think about design and just 325 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:58,920 the visual aspects. 326 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:08,680 Uh, but really when design is, in my opinion, uh, properly deployed as part of the whole team, 327 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:16,720 they're taking everyone's, uh, abilities and disciplines and really helping, especially in 328 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:23,300 the early days, uh, of the product development process, help, help the team confront those 329 00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:28,680 assumptions really head on and, and break them down even at the organizational level. 330 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:38,320 So the team in that instance had, uh, not only kind of, you know, taken this mandate from a 331 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:46,640 VP, but after actually conducting user research with the people who were intended to unlock this 332 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:55,520 $9 billion of value, uh, we actually also learned eventually that, that VP had no strong stake 333 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,240 in unlocking that value. 334 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:05,760 It was just kind of a casual thing, a casual hypothesis that this VP had thrown out and the 335 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,820 team themselves had interpreted it as a mandate. 336 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:18,320 And so not only did we, uh, eventually actually by doing user research and validate, uh, that 337 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:26,240 this was something that was going to deliver any value at all, we also help them gain confidence 338 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:34,200 in interpreting and understanding information that was coming from powerful people and helping 339 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:40,200 them digest that and say, wow, like we had an assumption that someone more powerful 340 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:48,800 than us would be telling us something and that regardless of their tone or messaging, we had to do it. 341 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,080 And that wasn't the truth in this case. 342 00:19:52,560 --> 00:20:00,000 And so I think that it's really valuable for people to really step back and, uh, just have 343 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,680 real conversations about what they think is true and to help everyone to have those authentic 344 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,800 conversations and, uh, try to find the truth in the heart of the matter. 345 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:13,200 Interesting. 346 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,840 So one thing is you're, you know, I know we have people come to us and our office 347 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,760 here in Seattle, all our other couple of dozen pivotal labs offices that, to kind 348 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,280 of learn how we work and start to maybe even get that mindset in place. 349 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,200 What are those agile rituals that you think matter the most? 350 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,120 Like what are those ones that people come in and we have to kind of show them or just kind 351 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:34,240 of get them in the habit of? 352 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,800 And, and then secondarily to that, I want you to answer, how do we make that doesn't just 353 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,360 become ceremony when it's like, all right, stupid standup time. 354 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,200 So what are the ones that matter? 355 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,720 And then how do you keep them fresh? 356 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:47,920 Totally. 357 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,240 Um, so Richard, I appreciate you saying the word habit. 358 00:20:52,240 --> 00:21:03,520 Uh, I feel like, um, that's something that we do a great job of is instilling those rituals, 359 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,600 uh, into the teams that we work with and creating those habits, right? 360 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:16,960 Those, that muscle memory, uh, because I think that, uh, rituals really are built on that foundation, 361 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:26,000 built on that, that habit forming, uh, abilities of humans, uh, to enable those types of practices 362 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:26,800 to have momentum. 363 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:36,400 Um, but to your kind of second point of your question, uh, any type of habit or ritual or 364 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:43,680 practice that does not then, uh, connect to the principle or outcome that it's trying to drive 365 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,520 can, can, can just become like, uh, a ceremony, right? 366 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:52,640 Almost like, uh, just ceremony for ceremony's sake. 367 00:21:52,640 --> 00:22:00,160 And I think that, um, what I try to do, and I think, uh, what other folks in labs really try to 368 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:08,320 do is really pair, um, those rituals, uh, with those principles and reinforce them over time. 369 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,400 Uh, because if those become decoupled, then it doesn't work. 370 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:17,120 And so I'll give you an example, um, with retro, for example. 371 00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:23,680 So, you know, uh, in a typical labs practice, uh, we have retro, we have iteration planning 372 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:31,360 meetings, we have company and team standup, um, just an example of, uh, uh, team retrospectives 373 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:41,200 at the end of the week, uh, I've seen them be extremely impactful and also, uh, be kind of, 374 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,080 uh, uh, uh, not, uh, substantive. 375 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:51,680 And I think in the not substantive camp, I think where people lose sight of, uh, coming 376 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:58,720 to those with humility, um, coming to those with an openness to receive feedback coming to 377 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:06,800 those, um, you know, without having an objective perspective, uh, you may not have, you may not 378 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:16,720 harness the full value of retrospective, which is a time set aside for teams to really catch those 379 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:23,760 things in the week that may have been festering in terms of team dynamics, or if it's something 380 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:32,640 that people want to use as time to give feedback on a code base or a design change, uh, making sure 381 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,240 that that's based for that. 382 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:42,320 And then also just for kind of team gathering and team cohesion, uh, and I've seen, uh, what I've 383 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:48,960 seen really great is I think that in the beginning of a labs team interfacing with a client team, 384 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:55,920 sometimes when clients are breaking out of their shell in that beginning, a retro may look more surface, 385 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:06,480 uh, and not be as deep, but as that trust is formed, uh, the team seeing labs, folks model 386 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:13,680 that behavior, that openness, eventually it becomes that more substantive ritual. 387 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:20,560 And I think that's how rituals are so valuable and important to instilling those principles 388 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:27,760 of, you know, making a team able to have that open communication, that human connection. 389 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:34,720 And I think that's something that people, you know, when they hear a ritual that supports agile or 390 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:41,040 XP practices, they think it's highly technocratic or, um, technically focused. 391 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:49,680 And of course we have discourse over technical topics, but for me, the real like, uh, value that 392 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,640 sometimes like implemented subliminally is that human connection. 393 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:56,800 Yeah. 394 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,440 I mean, that, that end of week retro is interesting as, as, as you say, for things that we're going 395 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,640 to learn, whether, whether some of the beginning of week things, for most people who don't know, 396 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:10,880 the pivotal practices that we've kind of run these weekly cycles, what does the week look like? 397 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:12,000 Totally, totally. 398 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,040 So, uh, uh, as I was, uh, sharing a little bit earlier, right? 399 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:23,680 We have a whole host of, uh, rituals that we normally run, uh, company and team standup. 400 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:30,320 So we will have breakfast in the morning together, come together for company standup, uh, and then 401 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:36,400 break out into our team standup where we talk about helps that we need blockers that we have things 402 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:42,080 that we worked on previously, uh, and things that we intend to work on today. 403 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,320 Um, and then also we'll have iteration planning meetings. 404 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:52,400 Sometimes those are earlier in the week, uh, but sometimes, uh, those happen later in the 405 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:53,120 week as well. 406 00:25:53,120 --> 00:26:00,640 Uh, those are really to help us run through stories, uh, to go through, uh, design and design 407 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:06,880 changes and to really bring the team around, uh, things that inform the cadence of the week. 408 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,680 Uh, of course there's always a ping pong break somewhere in there. 409 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:20,640 Um, something that I've also been seeing as we engage with kind of large portfolio work 410 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:27,120 or large enterprise work is, uh, connection to multi-teams. 411 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:37,040 And so having, uh, drumbeat type of communication where we also connect, uh, information across, 412 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:44,240 uh, different, uh, small, well-balanced teams, as well as connecting to like larger, uh, leadership 413 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:50,960 through things like a growth board, uh, where we talk about, uh, metrics that, um, connect down 414 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:51,760 to the project team. 415 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,960 Well, you know, this, as, as you've been going over this, I've, I've been thinking about 416 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:02,160 the, uh, I don't know, maybe it's just cause, cause I'm hot, but the kind of like negative, 417 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,880 uh, mirror image of this, um, which is, you know, we used to have that. 418 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,120 We had this podcast series a couple of years ago now, I think called, uh, that moment, 419 00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:15,840 which was all about like, when was that moment when you decided to, uh, do awesome stuff or 420 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,640 like to innovate something or do a good development. 421 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,240 And it has some nice stories around that. 422 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,560 And, you know, to use the kind of negative version of that, just to hear you theorize 423 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,960 it, like, like, let's say an organization is going around and things are successful, 424 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:29,200 right? 425 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,280 Like most all large enterprises at some point were very successful. 426 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,720 Uh, otherwise they wouldn't be large enterprises that still exist. 427 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,400 So they figured something out. 428 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:44,560 Uh, but you know, sometimes, uh, they have, you know, that moment where things start to go 429 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,040 poorly. 430 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,680 Like they forget the bad habits or they become too bureaucratic or, or something. 431 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:50,160 Right. 432 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:56,320 Um, and, and I wonder like, like whether it's only in your head or you sit around with people, 433 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,040 like one of the things, and you're kind of just like maybe having some Coke zero or too much 434 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:01,440 coffee. 435 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,000 And, you know, I used to talk about this with, with my developer friends, which is basically 436 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,360 like, why are these people not doing the thing that obviously is better? 437 00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,400 And instead they're kind of like sticking to this other thing. 438 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,200 Like you, you know, as an example, what made me think of this is like, you know, any time 439 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,640 someone uses the phrase unlock followed by billions of dollars, it's probably good to question that, 440 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,440 that phrase and yet no one would. 441 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,760 So anyways, I'm curious, like what you think in a large organization, like how do they get 442 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:38,240 to this point where they sort of need to be retrained about how to do things in more of a, 443 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,800 uh, I don't know the way you're talking about? 444 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:42,320 Totally. 445 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:50,000 Uh, I feel like I've been very impressed with our clients. 446 00:28:50,000 --> 00:29:00,400 And I say this like completely authentically that, uh, many times they have the, uh, foresight 447 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:09,360 and the talent, um, to think about problems in the way that you're saying to go, because to go back 448 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:16,320 to that anecdote, um, the architect that I was talking with was like, absolutely, you're exactly 449 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:16,800 correct. 450 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,800 Like we should not just take this as gospel, right? 451 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,920 That we're going to unlock this $9 billion of value. 452 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:31,520 Uh, but I think that, uh, to your point, uh, sometimes people need some empowerment and they 453 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:39,200 need, um, also a container for having those conversations. 454 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:48,640 And I think that sometimes the macro environments, like they're slammed with seven hours of meetings 455 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:57,120 a day, right, which is very against kind of our just enough process, uh, practices in labs. 456 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:05,520 Uh, they have no psychological space or psychological safety sometimes to have those real authentic 457 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:14,320 conversations that help drive, uh, the types of decision-making, uh, nimble decision-making 458 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:15,360 to move forward. 459 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:23,600 And, you know, sometimes I think that, uh, you know, we then come in and we help them establish 460 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,840 these rituals where they can have those conversations. 461 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:33,280 Uh, but something that I also like to think about is where each context that we go in, in, in labs 462 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:39,200 is, is totally, uh, totally different, um, engagement and engagement. 463 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:49,200 And so it, as we like think about principles and first principles, we're also flexing how, um, 464 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:56,320 rituals and how our practices, uh, need to land engagement to engagement. 465 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:05,040 Uh, and so just to give a concrete example, you know, this, that client in that anecdote, uh, 466 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,520 they had been with labs for a few engagements now. 467 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:15,600 So things were really, you know, established and running in terms of standup, in terms of 468 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:24,160 IPM, uh, and, you know, they really understood, you know, from a designer perspective, uh, the, 469 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:29,280 the discovery and framing process, like going out and doing user research with users and validating 470 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,040 and validating assumptions. 471 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:39,200 So they have the tools, but still there was, uh, an emotional gun shyness, maybe I'll say 472 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:49,200 around questioning or being able to bring up how data, uh, brought out from research could validate 473 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:54,880 or invalidate someone really powerful, uh, this is assumptions. 474 00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:04,160 And so, um, um, I actually started a new ritual with them that I, uh, going back to our coffee 475 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,600 discussion earlier this morning, um, called design coffee. 476 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:18,640 And I made it a 10 minute time box ritual every Wednesday to discuss any type of, um, product 477 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:24,960 or design conversation that may be something that had kind of fallen by the wayside, but 478 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,480 maybe was a little bit emotionally charged, but just needed a space to be talked about. 479 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:38,640 Um, and, and more, more space than maybe a standup provided, um, and something that I didn't want 480 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,120 to wait for in a weekly retro. 481 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:49,360 Um, and the outcome of that was, um, we finally had a space to discuss things that weren't specifically, 482 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:55,840 um, you know, what was going to be refactored this week or, you know, what, um, was going 483 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:02,400 to be specifically worked on in terms of a database perspective or in the code base, but rather 484 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:09,760 like, hey, you know, we have these priorities, like, how are we going to understand if this is 485 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:10,880 our real priority? 486 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:17,600 Um, and how are we going to prototype or figure out something that we can put up in front of 487 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,760 users to validate or invalidate this assumption? 488 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:28,960 And so I think that for me, um, having that flexible mindset in terms of, hey, uh, just have 489 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:36,480 just enough process, but also like if, if there's feels like a need that's not being filled, how 490 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:44,240 can we be entrepreneurial and instituting any rituals or, or deleting any rituals that are 491 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,680 not serving our, our principles or the outcomes we want to drive? 492 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:48,080 Yeah. 493 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:53,120 And, you know, it seems like that last part pulls together, uh, a lot of things, which is, 494 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,280 well, I guess to kind of reformulate like my, my original questions, just as, as reference 495 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:06,000 for myself, like, like, uh, uh, so you have an organization that's successful and sometimes, 496 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:12,080 oftentimes what happens is they, they, they start new bad habits, like maybe, you know, 497 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,720 because they're new, they never really had these habits, but they kind of like fall back on doing 498 00:34:16,720 --> 00:34:17,280 these habits. 499 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,520 Now, maybe this habit is that they don't evolve their process to match new ways of doing things. 500 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,760 So they're stuck in the past, so to speak, but you have, you have some bad habit, like, 501 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,520 like to use our example, you don't, you don't question what the boss says as far as like what, um, 502 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:38,480 what macro and micro strategy is, uh, essentially like, like we were, we did a podcast with, um, 503 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:40,400 Jonathan Sterlin. 504 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:41,680 Is that how you say his name? 505 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:42,080 Mm-hmm. 506 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,960 Remember, remember that one, Richard, about the food service company? 507 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,720 And, uh, yeah, that was great. 508 00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:51,360 And the bosses were basically like, you know, what we need to do is, uh, you should put recipes 509 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,560 on iPads in the kitchen. 510 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,600 And, uh, so normally, you know, you would put recipes on iPads in the kitchen, but instead 511 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,800 the team went there and they were like, you know, what actually is a problem is they're always, 512 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,880 they're spending all this time measuring the mayonnaise and that really like clogs up the system. 513 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,720 So we should fix that problem first, which is, you know, it's a good example. 514 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:15,440 I think of, um, questioning authority is like, you know, some nineties black bandana breaking 515 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,520 a McDonald's window way of putting it, but like, it's sort of like a process of truly 516 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,120 discovering what you should be doing by not assuming things. 517 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,120 So anyways, I mean, that's a good habit to, uh, you kind of build that up. 518 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,080 Uh, but you know, then there's also just regressing to habits you fixed, uh, that happens as well. 519 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,600 But it seems like a lot of what, how you prevent that. 520 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,920 And you were saying this at the end is, and it's always kind of frustrating to have this 521 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:40,480 as the answer. 522 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,160 Cause it's, you're assigning yourself more homework, but it's like, you need to really 523 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,240 like write down what the principles are that you're following. 524 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:53,280 And like, you're, you know, like kind of to, to kind of like come up with a principle with 525 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:59,040 our example, like you shouldn't just take on face value, like some assumption that you have, 526 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,120 unless it's kind of like proven out. 527 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:06,480 Like if there's no footnote, then you should find out what the footnote should have been. 528 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,040 And if there isn't one, then figure that out. 529 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:14,160 And so like, I don't know exactly how you express that in some like, you know, really nice principle, 530 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,640 but it probably, it probably is like worth the time of an organization to think like, 531 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,840 here are the, and I'm just making this up, like five or 10 operating principles that every 532 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,720 now and then we need to check in and make sure we're doing. 533 00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:32,080 Um, and, and the first principle is like checking on the principles, right? 534 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,240 Like, like, like if you're not doing that, then something is probably going wrong, uh, 535 00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:39,920 which should be indicative of, of sliding back on, on, uh, bad habits. 536 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:41,920 Totally. 537 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:50,560 And, uh, I, I like how you talk about also, you know, regressing to bad habits and like how 538 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:56,640 that's something you don't want to, uh, like not look out for. 539 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:03,520 Um, and that's where I think that, uh, you know, when you're going into a client engagement 540 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:10,560 and you're wanting to be really sensitive to people's, uh, emotional states and supporting 541 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:17,680 them and their growth, you know, I don't go out of my way to, um, point that out and, and, 542 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,400 in a way where they feel shamed or, um, not supported. 543 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:30,240 Um, but I think that, uh, instead like helping them, um, have a conversation with themselves 544 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:37,360 and acknowledging that they do have those bad habits and figuring out a way to then also, 545 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:44,960 uh, like I was, I was sharing with the design coffee example, replacing those bad habits with 546 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:53,600 a safe way in their mind, a psychologically safe way to question, um, something that was said, 547 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:54,240 right. 548 00:37:54,240 --> 00:38:00,320 And, and knowing that that doesn't, doesn't mean that they're not, they can't be collaborators 549 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:01,600 with a VP. 550 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:07,440 They can't be, um, you know, uh, have good relations with that leadership. 551 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,960 Uh, but they also don't have to mindlessly follow, um, what those people are saying, 552 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:13,840 right. 553 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:20,400 And changing that dynamic so that, um, you know, cause it was, it was fascinating. 554 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,320 They were like, I was like, oh, are you all afraid of getting fired? 555 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:25,120 And they're like, no. 556 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:33,280 And I, so I was like, okay, so if, if you have that safety or that feeling of safety, um, 557 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,960 then let's, you know, let's have those, those conversations. 558 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:48,880 Um, and, and it happened and then I was actually, I had to leave for, um, uh, a week for health 559 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,520 related issues, which are all fine. 560 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:59,760 Um, but they actually had that entire conversation with the VP while I was gone and they actually 561 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:04,560 sustained, uh, that kind of casual design coffee ritual. 562 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,840 We started together while I was out. 563 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:13,760 Um, and they had the conversation with the VP, they were nervous, but they, they walked that 564 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:19,440 VP through that research and, and this person was like, oh, great. 565 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:19,920 Thank you. 566 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,440 You all are the experts. 567 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,520 Uh, you all have this on the ground information. 568 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:26,480 Thank you. 569 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,360 You all are free from having to do this, this work. 570 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:38,300 And, you know, went about, you know, the 80,000 other things this person had to deal with. 571 00:39:38,300 --> 00:39:46,860 And so that was, uh, a really, I mean, proud moment for me, honestly, because I was, I was 572 00:39:46,860 --> 00:39:55,080 really happy that the team felt like they had the confidence, um, and the space to, to do that. 573 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,400 Yeah, that's great. 574 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,760 One to pull back to Alex is something you'd mentioned earlier. 575 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:05,360 And I was introduced to DNF, uh, I mean, I knew of it and I knew Pivotal does discovery 576 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,280 and framing, but I heard David, our office director explain it in the meeting and he did such a 577 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:09,800 great job. 578 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,640 What's the role of design in that effect, if I steer you in that direction? 579 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,480 So what is discovery and framing and how does design help make that effective? 580 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:18,520 Totally. 581 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:18,980 Totally. 582 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:24,820 So, uh, not a ritual that we do every week, but certainly, uh, a large, 583 00:40:24,820 --> 00:40:32,920 uh, kind of thinking framework and also a process that we do, uh, up front in a lot of engagements 584 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,100 is, is exactly what Richard said, a DNF. 585 00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:42,540 And what a DNF, uh, stands for is a discovery, uh, and framing, uh, process. 586 00:40:42,540 --> 00:40:51,260 And, uh, this process is really, uh, about getting our clients thinking in, uh, you know, going 587 00:40:51,260 --> 00:40:58,920 back to our conversation about principles in an evidence-based mindset, um, at its simplest 588 00:40:58,920 --> 00:40:59,800 level, right? 589 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:07,900 Like not taking our assumptions at face value, especially from, uh, folks who have a lot of 590 00:41:07,900 --> 00:41:08,780 power in the room. 591 00:41:08,780 --> 00:41:16,020 Uh, and so what we do is we run through all the way from a kickoff process with our clients, 592 00:41:16,020 --> 00:41:24,220 we run our clients through, um, all of the kind of initial steps of a user-centered design 593 00:41:24,220 --> 00:41:33,000 process and we do a lot of exploratory research to, uh, understand the problem space around 594 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,000 the initial brief. 595 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:42,440 So a client might come to us and say, uh, to Michael's point, uh, hey, we need, uh, recipes 596 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,200 on iPads in the kitchen and we'll say, okay, great. 597 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,880 Uh, thanks for bringing this problem to us. 598 00:41:50,260 --> 00:41:57,880 Uh, let's understand all the people and the technology and, uh, the environments that surround 599 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:04,900 this problem and we'll generate a lot of understanding in that space and then we'll synthesize that 600 00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:05,400 information. 601 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:13,100 We'll hone down, um, and then come back to the client with a kind of, uh, boiled down understanding 602 00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:20,400 of, of a key framework and a key problem statement, uh, that backed by data helps us communicate 603 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:20,980 back to them. 604 00:42:20,980 --> 00:42:23,980 I'm like, hey, you said you have this problem. 605 00:42:23,980 --> 00:42:33,220 Uh, we kind of got down to root causes and, uh, uh, also did technical discovery and, uh, 606 00:42:33,220 --> 00:42:40,140 uh, interviews with folks in, in, uh, that space who may use your product. 607 00:42:40,140 --> 00:42:43,200 And we actually understood that this was your real problem. 608 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:50,940 Uh, and from there we'll expand again, diverging into many different types of solutions, uh, 609 00:42:50,940 --> 00:42:57,260 do again, uh, more technical discovery, but also a lot of rapid prototyping, even on paper, 610 00:42:57,260 --> 00:43:04,420 uh, and bring those to clients, validate or invalidate, uh, those different solutions and 611 00:43:04,420 --> 00:43:13,100 then produce that, um, kind of, uh, final idea and solution to the client again, um, at the 612 00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:15,620 end of the framing part of the DNF. 613 00:43:15,620 --> 00:43:23,040 Um, and that really helps us inform the client, like, hey, you had this mountain of ambiguity, 614 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:30,260 uh, with all these assumptions about your user and the problem space and the solution space. 615 00:43:30,260 --> 00:43:36,260 And here's how we, the well-balanced team of developers, designers, and product managers, 616 00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:43,580 and sometimes data scientists, sometimes other folks, uh, brought together all of these users 617 00:43:43,580 --> 00:43:48,120 and key parties to really understand where we should start development. 618 00:43:48,580 --> 00:43:56,300 Or, um, if the solution is not a development solution, here's our recommendation about how 619 00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:57,480 to approach this problem. 620 00:43:57,580 --> 00:44:03,560 Um, and that leads us to inception and starting to, you know, add stories to the backlog, um, 621 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:04,400 and start development. 622 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:11,780 And so, oh, I really think that it's a great, um, also from an enablement perspective, it's 623 00:44:11,780 --> 00:44:17,840 a great way to introduce clients to, uh, the user-centered design process and also to technical 624 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:18,540 discovery. 625 00:44:19,300 --> 00:44:25,120 Uh, but I think that it's, it's something that we try, like the spirit of the DNF is what 626 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,220 I like to call it, that evidence, uh, based mindset. 627 00:44:28,220 --> 00:44:33,860 It's something as a designer, um, I really try to carry through all the way through an engagement 628 00:44:33,860 --> 00:44:35,700 so that people don't lose that spirit. 629 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,380 I mean, just so if somebody doesn't hear all that, go, that sounds like a lot of work. 630 00:44:39,380 --> 00:44:40,640 Like, what is that a two-year process? 631 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,560 Like, how long does DNF usually take before we get into inception and start putting hands 632 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:46,780 on keyboards, building things? 633 00:44:47,260 --> 00:44:47,540 Totally. 634 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,380 So, uh, I've done DNFs that are like four weeks. 635 00:44:51,980 --> 00:44:55,220 Um, but sometimes it can be shorter or longer. 636 00:44:55,540 --> 00:45:03,600 Um, it really depends on the problem space and also honestly, uh, how, like the velocity, 637 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:09,380 of, um, how, how, how we are as a team. 638 00:45:09,380 --> 00:45:16,920 So, you know, if I have an experienced, uh, designer pair, uh, and, and the client has 639 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:23,440 like helped us, uh, set up, um, those research participants really well from the beginning, 640 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:30,620 like we can, you know, really blast through a lot of work fast to help the client, um, really 641 00:45:30,620 --> 00:45:33,860 get to, to building things as you said, Michael. 642 00:45:33,860 --> 00:45:41,220 Um, but I also think like, and this is what I really love to work with, uh, the developers 643 00:45:41,220 --> 00:45:50,240 on both the pivotal and client side with is, um, I'm very agnostic in terms of how we prototype 644 00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:52,840 and how we invalidate or validate assumptions. 645 00:45:52,840 --> 00:46:00,360 So if engineering paired with design and product, uh, think about like, oh, like what if we, 646 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:05,540 you know, push some small production app to like validate or invalidate this assumption 647 00:46:05,540 --> 00:46:12,760 and it's, it's cheap and fast to, uh, do that, to de-risk that assumption. 648 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:28,040 Um, you know, if it's a really, uh, API driven or backend type of thing that we're developing, 649 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:33,380 like sometimes the best thing to prototype will be, um, something that's, that's, that we 650 00:46:33,380 --> 00:46:34,960 can push a production really fast. 651 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:41,140 Um, if it's something, you know, very ambiguous, like they have no idea, um, where they're going 652 00:46:41,140 --> 00:46:47,260 with it, then, uh, sometimes we do want to hang out in a more kind of design or research 653 00:46:47,260 --> 00:46:48,020 space longer. 654 00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:49,960 Makes sense. 655 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:50,520 Yeah. 656 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:56,520 You got to add the, uh, add some of that deliberate expertise to the, to the, to the guide there 657 00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,920 to, to, uh, that always does seem helpful to have some outsider who sort of knows how the 658 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,860 story goes to give you some notes on it. 659 00:47:03,020 --> 00:47:09,280 But, but speaking of, uh, you know, I, well, I mean a couple of things, one, so, uh, before 660 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:14,900 we wrap up, like, is there like, where would you recommend people like go read up about all 661 00:47:14,900 --> 00:47:15,600 this stuff? 662 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:22,800 Like, do we, we don't really have like, uh, the labs way of life book, but there is, there 663 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,580 is, there is like, like over on built to adapt and other places here, like, you know, there's, 664 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,640 there's a, there's a fair amount of writing up of a lot of this thinking, but outside of 665 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:37,640 the confines of pivotal or that as well, like, is there like, like what's, what's a good, 666 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,980 like, I don't know, one to three item reading list or something that people would go look 667 00:47:42,980 --> 00:47:46,720 at for, for all this kind of, let's call it product thinking. 668 00:47:47,140 --> 00:47:48,740 Like what, what do you refer people to? 669 00:47:49,180 --> 00:47:49,660 Absolutely. 670 00:47:50,180 --> 00:48:00,360 So, uh, we have, as you just mentioned, great, um, blogs about our DNF process, uh, and our 671 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:08,300 other processes on built to adapt, uh, watch this space, uh, labs is going to have a lot 672 00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:15,220 of content coming up on, on the, uh, normal pivotal.io, uh, website very soon. 673 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,940 Um, and I'll actually be writing a little bit about design rituals on there. 674 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,180 Oh, that's exciting. 675 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:22,120 Yeah. 676 00:48:22,420 --> 00:48:22,740 Yeah. 677 00:48:22,740 --> 00:48:25,600 So some exciting content is coming. 678 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:32,660 Uh, uh, our wonderful, uh, design team in Seattle is, is hard at work working with designers 679 00:48:32,660 --> 00:48:39,620 all over the world at pivotal, um, to build out, uh, a lot more content around, uh, describing 680 00:48:39,620 --> 00:48:45,880 our process, uh, describing, uh, ways that we engage with our clients, large and small. 681 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:54,740 Uh, so definitely, uh, watch the space, uh, but also, uh, in terms of, uh, some of the things 682 00:48:54,740 --> 00:49:03,600 that we discussed here, uh, uh, we have, uh, great content, um, just in terms of like the 683 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:09,560 DNF, actually, it kind of grew out of, um, work done by the London design council. 684 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:16,880 So if you, if you go to their page, uh, and just Google them, uh, they have a lot of, uh, 685 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:24,100 some of the thinking that was, uh, the foundation for, uh, what eventually became our DNF process. 686 00:49:24,660 --> 00:49:33,300 Um, and then, uh, my work around and my focus around design rituals, um, is inspired, uh, 687 00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:37,780 a little bit by just, you know, my work on the ground as a pivot. 688 00:49:38,340 --> 00:49:43,620 Uh, but also there's some really cool things coming out from, uh, the design ritual lab 689 00:49:43,620 --> 00:49:44,960 at the D school in Stanford. 690 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:51,220 So, um, those are just some great things to just pertinent to what we talked about in this 691 00:49:51,220 --> 00:49:54,580 conversation, um, that I think that's a great thing. 692 00:49:54,580 --> 00:49:55,520 I think would be great. 693 00:49:55,580 --> 00:50:02,740 Uh, otherwise, uh, lean startup and the startup way are just in terms of, uh, overall product 694 00:50:02,740 --> 00:50:04,540 thinking are good resources as well. 695 00:50:05,020 --> 00:50:06,140 Yeah, no, that's true. 696 00:50:06,260 --> 00:50:11,940 It often comes back to the, uh, the, well, in the context of the enterprise space, the tragically 697 00:50:11,940 --> 00:50:18,360 named, uh, startup part of lean startup, but it always comes back to that, uh, that like 698 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,200 loop of validation, which, which I think, uh, people are often missing. 699 00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:23,420 Well, well, that sounds great. 700 00:50:23,460 --> 00:50:26,420 Well, thanks for going over all of that, uh, that stuff with us. 701 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,640 But, you know, that's, that is the second thing I was going to say is, uh, you know, uh, we 702 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,520 might be saturated here around Pivotal, but y'all labs people, you should have a podcast 703 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:35,520 just every week. 704 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:35,780 Ooh. 705 00:50:36,460 --> 00:50:39,980 You don't, you don't have to do the whole thing where you, where you lay down some, uh, 706 00:50:40,180 --> 00:50:43,380 some spooky, you know, ducking of music tracks and things like that. 707 00:50:43,380 --> 00:50:48,420 That's a lot of work, but just, uh, just have some podcasts going over things like right 708 00:50:48,420 --> 00:50:53,600 before this, I was, um, I was reading up on a bunch of internal case studies of, uh, lab 709 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:54,300 stuff in Europe. 710 00:50:54,300 --> 00:50:59,880 And there's just like no end of like, they're just one slider things, but you can kind of 711 00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:04,200 read in between the lines of like the fun, enjoyable processes that, that went behind 712 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:09,800 them to actually, uh, you know, it's like mortgage stuff and connected car, which ostensibly 713 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,340 is really boring, but I'm sure, you know, when you're doing the actual work, it's 714 00:51:13,340 --> 00:51:13,700 interesting. 715 00:51:13,700 --> 00:51:18,200 And then it, uh, actually has like, you know, people can get mortgages better, which 716 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:18,620 is nice. 717 00:51:19,240 --> 00:51:22,680 But anyways, there, there's a, there's a lot of good stories just as you're illustrating 718 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:23,400 running around there. 719 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,000 I'm going to have to pick your, I'm going to have to pick your brain. 720 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:30,860 Uh, yeah, well, uh, well, uh, and also do you have, uh, you have a Twitter account 721 00:51:30,860 --> 00:51:32,560 or anything you want to point people towards? 722 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:33,140 Totally. 723 00:51:33,380 --> 00:51:33,640 Yeah. 724 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:40,220 Uh, folks can follow me at, uh, Alex S Tran, um, on Twitter. 725 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:41,600 Uh, yeah. 726 00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:48,300 I tweet, uh, a lot about design things and then just full disclosure, a lot about, uh, 727 00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:52,880 the design of our, uh, government and political systems. 728 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,520 So the design, that's a good way of putting it. 729 00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:55,700 Yeah. 730 00:51:55,700 --> 00:52:01,340 I just like to put that full disclaimer out there, uh, so that, you know, people know what 731 00:52:01,340 --> 00:52:03,640 type of content they're getting into. 732 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:04,520 Exactly. 733 00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:05,400 That's right. 734 00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:13,960 Uh, but yes, welcome, welcome folks to connect with me there or any other places, um, online. 735 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:14,660 All right. 736 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:15,000 Well, great. 737 00:52:15,060 --> 00:52:15,640 Well, thanks again. 738 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,400 And, and as always, uh, just in case you don't know what's been happening to you, you've 739 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:24,160 been listening to pivotal conversation, you can get this episode and, uh, like the, the 740 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:29,120 one with Jonathan that we referenced referenced and other ones over at soundcloud.com slash 741 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:30,220 Pivotal Conversations. 742 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,600 And about every Thursday or so, uh, we post the show notes for this. 743 00:52:34,660 --> 00:52:38,980 We'll have some of the links mentioned, uh, at pivotal.io slash podcast. 744 00:52:39,460 --> 00:52:42,460 And with that, I think, uh, I think I'm going to go jump in the canal. 745 00:52:42,460 --> 00:52:42,740 Yeah.