1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,920 My name is Bob Cunningham. As you mentioned I work for TD Ameritrade. We are an online brokerage 2 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:21,000 company and so financial services we obviously do a lot of different things for retail customers but 3 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:27,420 we have a large institutional line of business as well with advisors so we have a couple different 4 00:00:27,420 --> 00:00:31,580 ways we go and those have you know different requirements from a technology stack. It's 5 00:00:31,580 --> 00:00:36,360 interesting what the advisors need from technology versus what the retail customer needs is sometimes 6 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:42,200 in common but a lot of times different. So I have come from a financial services background. I actually 7 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:48,380 worked at Scottrade before TDA we were purchased and so I've been doing this now. This February will 8 00:00:48,380 --> 00:00:56,740 be my 19th or 20th year. I always have to look 19th year. Started as an intern and worked my way up so 9 00:00:56,740 --> 00:01:05,680 I now I lead the application architecture enterprise application architecture team at TDA and then nine 10 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:14,900 months ago took over and then we formed we decided to go all in with PCF and we started a program and I 11 00:01:14,900 --> 00:01:21,840 formed the cloud arm and I generically called the cloud you could have went PCF or whatever but I 12 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,840 decided to go generically cloud because you know we have ambitions of taking PCF and hosting it in 13 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:31,840 in public clouds at some point but we are kind of starting with on-prem you know get our feet wet. 14 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:44,260 Tell us the backstory. So you mentioned you know starting with PCF I think it's about nine months ago, six, nine months ago. What led to that decision? What were some of the factors driving your need or your decision to modernize the way 15 00:01:44,260 --> 00:01:49,200 the way you build applications or the way you operate applications? What led to that decision first off? 16 00:01:49,200 --> 00:02:05,020 Yeah, so I'll give a little bit of a back story before I join because I know it, the company, but you know we had been working with Pivotal through Pivotal Labs and so there was a, I'm going to call it a PCF presence but it was pretty small and minimal. 17 00:02:05,020 --> 00:02:18,960 It was pretty small but it was just enough to support our labs engagements and for those that don't know that's where you actually go. You sit at a Pivotal location, you're totally immersed and you build some new product, whatever that thing is you're there for. 18 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:37,900 So there was a couple starts and stops of doing that with Pivotal Labs and then I think you know everybody realizes that whether it's public cloud, whether it's agile, whether it's PCF, you all need to find ways whether it's technology but it's hopefully more than just technology to accelerate your path to production. 19 00:02:37,900 --> 00:03:00,400 Ultimately, you know, shrink your cycle time and get features and products out quicker. Hopefully also better products quicker. So I think our leadership realized that PCF was a good potential for that. We also had a competing product at the time so they asked us to do an evaluation so we did a bake-off. 20 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:15,400 And based upon the requirements and the things that we were looking at, PCF was a better fit. So the main thing that drove, there was a lot of different things but the, I'd say one of the largest things is we had a real focus on developer experience. 21 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:16,400 Right. 22 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:23,400 And so, since that was weighted so heavily in our evaluation criteria, it just made PCF a better choice. 23 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:30,400 And of course, developer experience is, you know, in furtherance of the end of, I assume, releasing software faster. 24 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:37,400 And giving your customers more functionality, responding to their needs more quickly, was that kind of part of the goal? 25 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:50,400 Yeah, for sure. And, you know, developer experience, you know, if you think about the way classic IT works, less service tickets, less wait time, less, you know, ultimately, everybody has their own motivation on what drives them to do good work. 26 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,400 But generally, developers just want to get product out, right? 27 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,400 And that's what gives them the satisfaction. 28 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:05,400 So for their, to have their satisfaction scores be high and to have a great experience, they have to be able to do that in a pretty frictionless manner. 29 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:12,400 And that's where PCF automation, some of the, let's call it DevOps experiences, really enable that. 30 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:13,400 Got it. 31 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,400 So let's talk about application transformation. 32 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:26,400 So, you know, we, I think a lot of the attention sometimes gets put on, you know, net new cloud native applications, which are great and can drive a lot of new business and new, new interest from customers and those kinds of things. 33 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,400 But in any existing enterprise, you're going to have a lot of legacy applications. 34 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:35,400 A lot of those are going to be monolithic applications beyond, you know, legacy tech stacks. 35 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,400 And part of the challenge is, well, how do we modernize those applications? 36 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,400 Because those are oftentimes the ones that are really bringing in the bulk of the revenue. 37 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,400 Talk a little bit about your, your approach to application transformation. 38 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,400 I thought I was on here for you to give me that answer. 39 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,400 If I had it, I would share it with you. 40 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,400 Although I have heard from a few different, a few different customers, and perhaps I can share some insights. 41 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,400 But I'd love to hear from you what you were thinking as you kind of started that process. 42 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:00,400 Yeah. 43 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,400 Looking at that last portfolio of applications and thinking, how are we going to modernize these? 44 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,400 It is a daunting task, right? 45 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,400 Like you have thousands of applications that have been written. 46 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,400 Some might go back 10 years or longer, depending on where they are. 47 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:19,400 So I think, I think for us, we had one advantage that I like to lean on. 48 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:25,400 So generally speaking, we were already in the process of modernizing and moving forward towards spring, spring boot. 49 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,400 So even the newest version. 50 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,400 So we have a large presence there. 51 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:34,400 So it's a natural thing for us to say, well, that's kind of the sweet spot for PAS. 52 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:42,400 It's not exclusive by any means, but it's just like they're born for each other, clearly with Pivotal being a number one contributor. 53 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:49,400 So I think we decided to start with some of those low hanging fruits. 54 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:56,400 And we worked with some teams and we targeted some that we thought we could be successful with our first engagement with Pivotal. 55 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:05,400 So we, we did do a 10 week, well, a four week engagement for a roadmap and then a 10 week engagement with them to work side by side. 56 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:14,400 And I had my team, a couple of my members on my team went and they actually took the role of the developer, not the pivot. 57 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:15,400 Okay. 58 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,400 So I was like, well, they have to experience working. 59 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:24,400 And it was a kind of a win win because of the team we went and worked for, you know, pulling together resources with this new thing. 60 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,400 So I said, I'll give you one of my resources. 61 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:31,400 They'll essentially act like one of your, your developers and we'll get to learn. 62 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:32,400 And so it was interesting. 63 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:38,400 And then slowly as the engagement went on, they kind of switched roles and they started trying to help more as a pivot. 64 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:51,400 So, um, from an application stack, we just kind of, we did a, a funnel process where we kind of set criteria of what we thought were, um, good business reasons why you would want to target that app. 65 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:52,400 Um, it's important. 66 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:58,400 Like, uh, so it really doesn't make a ton of sense to invest into something that is running good. 67 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,400 Well, um, doesn't change ever. 68 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,400 And, you know, so we wanted to have some criteria like frequency of change. 69 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:12,400 We wanted to have some criteria around, you know, um, you know, risk profiles and everything. 70 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:18,400 And then, um, then we went to the technical criteria and honestly, it was mainly driven from pivotal, right? 71 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:19,400 The, it was new to us. 72 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,400 So they taught us a lot about whether the things that make things good candidates and bad candidates. 73 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,400 Um, and then it's you, we kind of just targeted those apps. 74 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,400 And then what we did in our engagement that I, I, and we did it again when I'll, I'll get into our own private engagement. 75 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:42,400 Um, is we tried to pick things across a, a, a broad range of, I'm going to say scoring, right? 76 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:48,400 So we picked ones that were really good fits to get our feet wet, to kind of just get into the platform and learn. 77 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,400 We picked some harder use cases. 78 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:59,400 We tried to fit enough type of things in order to maximize our learning experience more than maybe maximize, um, how much we got onto the platform. 79 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:00,400 That's an interesting concept. 80 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,400 So it's an early, early engagement. 81 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,400 You recognize that you have a lot to learn. 82 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:12,400 So let's pick a few different types of applications that have different risk profiles and different, uh, architectural concerns. 83 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:21,400 And let's kind of vary that up so that we're learning and you're somewhat could be potentially sacrificing the total number of applications. 84 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,400 You're going to move to the platform in the short term, but long term, you're going to learn. 85 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,400 It's going to ultimately accelerate. 86 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:27,400 Yeah. 87 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,400 It's sort of like, um, TDD or, um, any form of automated testing. 88 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:44,400 There's probably a little bit more initial upfront costs, but the, the hope is, is if you do it right, that you end up, um, accelerating and getting, you know, an order of magnitude back, um, once you reach that, that tipping point. 89 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,400 Um, so we just, you know, we had the pivots there and they've done this at a lot of companies. 90 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,400 So we just tried to pick some interesting use cases out of this pool. 91 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:59,400 We were working with a single team, but we tried to pick some interesting use cases, um, and make sure we could learn as much as we possibly could. 92 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:07,400 A big part of what you do in applications is, you know, you come up with your recipes and this is the thing that shows other people how to do it, right? 93 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:13,400 Um, they don't have to, you leave it up to them for their choice, but if, if it's easy and it enables them, they're going to want to follow it. 94 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:19,400 Um, and so we just tried to, you know, get as much as we could during that 10 week engagement. 95 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,400 Um, and then, so I think we, we definitely wanted to get apps on the platform. 96 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:24,400 We definitely wanted to learn. 97 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:31,400 Um, so it was really a mix of learning experience and, uh, making some progress. 98 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:41,400 Um, and that was 10 weeks and then, um, Pivotal moves on and, uh, we are, we've successfully just completed our own, um, first one. 99 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,400 It was just me, uh, the team as part of our program. 100 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:51,400 We worked with, uh, app devs, um, and did one without Pivotal, um, followed a lot of the playbook, right? 101 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:56,400 A big part of the playbook that we haven't mentioned is like OKRs. 102 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:03,400 So it's hard to know where you're going to get if you don't set your objectives up front, um, and your key results to get there. 103 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,400 So we definitely do that process. 104 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:06,400 We like it a lot. 105 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,400 Um, it's actually started to grow is in the company. 106 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:16,400 Um, so all of technology at the, the, the CIO level and his directs now have OKRs. 107 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,400 Um, and I don't know if it was a coincidental, it probably was, or maybe they were thinking about doing it. 108 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,400 They saw it and also decided it was time. 109 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,400 Um, but it's definitely a practice we do now. 110 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,400 Um, and we're going to mature that. 111 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:29,400 So we did that. 112 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,400 We've met with the team and then our engagement was five weeks. 113 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:41,400 Um, we did five weeks and in five weeks we moved, uh, we, we platformed, um, 12 applications, which doesn't sound that, that great. 114 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,400 Um, but, uh, we also did a bunch of different modernizations. 115 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:54,400 Um, our first time doing it, we probably, our mistake was we probably focused a little too much on modernizations that first week when you're still trying to form as a team. 116 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,400 And so lesson learned. 117 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:01,400 Um, but we got two apps to production, um, all the way to through the pipeline. 118 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:02,400 Um, right. 119 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:03,400 Cause this is still new. 120 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:12,400 So we have a lot of processes that we still have to optimize and automate, but we're, we're constantly trying to pick pain points and improve them. 121 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:17,400 Um, and I'm sure you've heard this with, from everybody, it's a journey, not a destination. 122 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:18,400 Yep. 123 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:19,400 So it takes some time. 124 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,400 Well, talk about the, the team. 125 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:27,400 Um, what, what, what kind of characteristics do you look for in people, um, who are best suited for this kind of, kind of work? 126 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:35,400 I was talking to, uh, another customer of West Corp earlier today and they were talking about, um, you know, there's different, uh, there's different types of people. 127 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:40,400 Some people are really, you know, into this change and want to learn and others are kind of resistant. 128 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:46,400 And, you know, that just based on the nature of people, you know, people that react different ways to, to, to these kinds of things. 129 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:47,400 I can, what do you look for? 130 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:48,400 Yeah, I can tell you two things. 131 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,400 So I'll say what I look for in my team. 132 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,400 Who's ultimately out there working with people. 133 00:11:53,400 --> 00:12:01,400 And then what we, when we're talking to a leader, trying to get a team to work with what I suggest or say to them. 134 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,400 So for my team, I mean, obviously experience is important. 135 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:09,400 Um, but the, I, the number one criteria is a willingness to be open to change. 136 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:19,400 So I, my team's architects, um, and at that senior architects, they've been doing it for a while, but they, they each have their own personalities and their own styles. 137 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,400 Um, so they're not the same, even though they're the same. 138 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,400 Um, and so each of their styles are different. 139 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:31,400 So you just gotta, you know, understand that and a willingness to teach a willingness to pick up stuff new. 140 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,400 Um, so an open mind and a, and the ability to learn is probably number one thing. 141 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:37,400 And then the technical stuff, right? 142 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:42,400 The writing the code to doing those things, it just comes naturally then for most of them. 143 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,400 Um, so some are better at always being open and communicating. 144 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,400 Some are better at bringing a new thing to the table that everybody gets super excited about. 145 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,400 Everybody has their sweet spot. 146 00:12:52,400 --> 00:13:00,400 Um, so for the teams I go to work with, you know, we've only done one, but when we were building the material saying, Hey, this is what we want to do. 147 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,400 I said, it has to be your, your, your rock stars. 148 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,400 And by that, I didn't mean like your best developers. 149 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:10,400 I just meant the people that if you say, Oh, he's good at everything I asked him to do. 150 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,400 Um, he, if you ask him to go teach somebody, he does that. 151 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,400 If you ask him to go code something by himself, he would do that. 152 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,400 Like they're just open to whatever they're tasked with and they put their, their, their everything they can behind it. 153 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:28,400 And the reason I asked for that, um, to start with is because it's new and you want to be successful. 154 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:38,400 Um, but the other part is you really want to, and I owe kudos to pivotal as they, as you're learning this from them, you almost don't believe it until you go do it yourself. 155 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,400 And you're like, ah, it makes sense. Right? 156 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,400 So it's because you want them to be the people that you leave behind that kind of do that again. 157 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:50,400 So you want them to get out and build a community amongst while you're also helping build a community. 158 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:57,400 So those guys can now go work with a team, be open to teaching them, go sit with them for a while, say, Hey, do a learn. 159 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:04,400 So we had everybody on, uh, one of our OKRs was how comfortable they were, um, with being able to do this without us. 160 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,400 And, and that included teaching other people to do it. 161 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,400 So we just, we ask them a question. 162 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,400 They give us a, yeah, we're really comfortable. 163 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,400 And that'll mean that, you know, binary, we met the OKR. 164 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:20,400 So they might give a learning session or a brown bag, um, lunch session to a team. 165 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:26,400 Um, they've, with the apps that we've moved, they've already went and worked with teams to explain what they did. 166 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:34,400 Um, they've already committed, uh, and created their own recipes and put them into our overall cookbook that the whole enterprise can look at and use. 167 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:41,400 So it's not to say that they have to be rock stars, like, but you want to try to cherry pick, especially in the beginning. 168 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,400 Like the people that you think you're going to be successful with, because like, you've probably heard a million times today. 169 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:47,400 It's a culture change too. 170 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,400 It's a, it's a, we're going to do things different. 171 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:55,400 And, uh, my boss told me this a long time ago and I used it with everybody so far. 172 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:02,400 It was, um, you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable, especially in the beginning because everybody comes in. 173 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,400 They think they literally asked the team, they asked me, well, how do you do this? 174 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,400 They want to answer in the beginning. 175 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:09,400 There aren't answers. 176 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:18,400 There's a lot of ways to do things and we haven't done enough or, um, learned enough to know that this way is necessarily better than that way. 177 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:24,400 So I just kind of told them to be comfortable with, um, being uncomfortable, be willing to experiment. 178 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:30,400 And so after the first week they were like, it took a little bit, but they were super excited about that. 179 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:31,400 And we just tried things. 180 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:38,400 And so we have things that could go on to prod that we probably won't because we're like, it was good, but there's probably a better way to do that. 181 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,400 But you had to try something to know that. 182 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:41,400 Right, right. 183 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,400 And so finding those people that have that mentality that can, can, can live in that space where it's a little bit uncomfortable. 184 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,400 Not going to know if this is going to work or not. 185 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:55,400 Uh, those kinds of people who you're looking for, because then it sounds like your strategy to scale this throughout the enterprise is those, those people are going to go and try to teach others. 186 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,400 And hopefully that's a self perpetuating. 187 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:58,400 Yeah. 188 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,400 So we have, we have multiple lines of business. 189 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:06,400 Um, and so our technology has multiple technology lines that line up with those lines of business. 190 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:12,400 Um, and so through the first app TX with pivotal, we, we worked with two different lines of business. 191 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:17,400 Um, and then this time we did one, we went to another line of business. 192 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:25,400 And so the, the hope is, is that you've built enough momentum and inertia with those people that you work with, that those lines of business can make lots of decisions. 193 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:32,400 They could form an enablement team of their own, sort of like what we're doing at the enterprise level and just have them do that kind of process. 194 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,400 They could have it be more informal and those people are just available. 195 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:43,400 And maybe they go work with the team for a couple of weeks and maybe they work with a different team or maybe they're answering questions, um, on our, on PCF Slack channel. 196 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,400 So we have, we're trying to build a Slack community. 197 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:52,400 Um, you've, uh, Otto from, uh, Greg Otto from, uh, Comcast talks a lot about the Slack community. 198 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,400 Uh, it's, it's a big deal. It's a great way to learn stuff from each other. 199 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,400 So yeah, the goal, but we don't want to be overly prescriptive either. 200 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,400 Right. Um, you can't go in and say, you got to do something this way, right? 201 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,400 That's like the antithesis of what you're trying to do from a technology point of view. 202 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,400 So why would you do it from a process point of view? 203 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:13,400 So you just kind of say, here's things that I think will work and just partnerships. 204 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:19,400 Um, you really just got to partner with them and start talking and have a great dialogue, be open and figure it out. 205 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:25,400 I mean, ultimately all I want for my team to do is, um, enable people, whatever that means. 206 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,400 Um, so if that's creating reference implementations, great. 207 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,400 If it's creating recipes, great. 208 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:36,400 If it's partnering and actually implementing a new modernization technique or a new technology, then great. 209 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,400 Um, as long as it's helping everybody, um, I feel like that's the new style of architecture. 210 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:53,400 Um, kind of get rid of that old ivory tower standard based out, shout, do X, um, and focus a little bit more on, um, getting out there and enabling teams. 211 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,400 Cause there's lots of smart people out there. 212 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,400 If you, if you help them and point them in the right direction, they'll, they'll, they'll be successful. 213 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:00,400 Right. 214 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,400 And you want to take, take advantage of that, those, those smart people. 215 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:04,400 For sure. 216 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:05,400 Got it. 217 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:10,400 Um, so we were talking earlier, you mentioned, since you've got two groups, you've got more of your, I guess, traditional architecture group. 218 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:11,400 And then you started a cloud group. 219 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:16,400 Tell us a little bit about the structure of the, of the organization, how that, how that works and what you were thinking. 220 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,400 Um, it doesn't work great. 221 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,400 Um, no, I mean, uh, it was, uh, it was kind of born out of, um, need. 222 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:37,400 Um, so, you know, you have a classic application architecture team and, um, I buy into a way we're already trying to transform that kind of team into doing a little bit more hands on a little bit more enablement. 223 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,400 Um, definitely more community based, right? 224 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,400 We've set up some communities and we're kind of trying to push that. 225 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:51,400 And then the, the PCF, um, pivotal engagement came around and, you know, they live and breathe that kind of mentality. 226 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,400 So I shifted. 227 00:18:52,400 --> 00:19:03,400 And the reason I created two teams is because I, I really felt it was important if I was going to do this and, and be really change the way we're thinking. 228 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:04,400 And I wanted to actually create new roles. 229 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:13,400 So a lot of the, the, um, a lot of the characteristics that you're looking for are in my new role. 230 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,400 I mean, I call out, um, hands on time pairing with developers in my new role. 231 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,400 So I call out a lot of the cloud things, um, reference implementation. 232 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,400 So, uh, I felt like if you're going to ask people to do it, then ask people to do it. 233 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,400 Um, and then it also helps with hiring, right? 234 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,400 Like, you know, sometimes people will say, Oh, I'm hiring this and then you're doing something else. 235 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:36,400 And that's not great. 236 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,400 So that's kind of why it happened. 237 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:44,400 Um, I would wager over time that line between them gets blurrier and blurrier and blurrier. 238 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,400 And so there's not really a line between them. 239 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,400 And, um, but right now it's just like focus areas. 240 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:55,400 So we have other initiatives going on, um, that, that require some resources. 241 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:00,400 So I kind of just keep them a little bit separate, but we, we still have team meetings together. 242 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,400 We still do things that are together and talk across. 243 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,400 So it's not like it's a pure boundary. 244 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,400 So it sounds like it's a, it's a pragmatic approach for today. 245 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:15,400 I mean, I, I assume the, the, the, not the end point, cause there's never an end, but the goal is to get to a point where this is cloud native. 246 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:16,400 It's just the way we do things. 247 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:17,400 Yes. 248 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:18,400 There's not these two separate groups. 249 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:19,400 Yeah. 250 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:20,400 No, I, I think so. 251 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:21,400 Um, right. 252 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:32,400 Once you've evolved enough and you don't have some of maybe these legacy constraints or, or some of these other things that you're doing in a non cloud native way, I think that becomes a more natural thing to just say. 253 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:38,400 But in the meantime, it's like, you know, I wanted to both give the recognition in the roles that are different, right? 254 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,400 Because right now they are different. 255 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,400 And then if they morph together, maybe the roles become the same again at some point. 256 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,400 Um, but right now you have tons of legacy. 257 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,400 You have tons of classic things. 258 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:53,400 Um, you have things that fit in the cloud native space, but also fit in the old monolithic space. 259 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,400 Um, so something I'll have to figure out, but luckily not right now. 260 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:04,400 Well, you know, speaking of the future, so, so what, what, you know, what do you hope to accomplish, let's say in the next six months to a year? 261 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,400 Uh, what was kind of on your agenda and how do you see this progressing? 262 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,400 So, um, you know, we did our own FTX and we did some, some good work last quarter. 263 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:21,400 Um, this quarter we're, we're taking a small step back from what I would call like a larger FTX, which five weeks cause it's very consuming and it's most of my team. 264 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,400 Um, so I don't have a lot of capabilities to do, to do more than that when you're there. 265 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,400 I mean, it's nonstop eight hours a day. 266 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:28,400 You're with them. 267 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:29,400 You're doing those things. 268 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:36,400 Um, so this quarter we're going to do some, what I call mini engagements and we're still going to, it's something I invented. 269 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:43,400 I don't know if pivotal does something like this or prescribes it, but basically we're going to focus most of the quarter on enablement. 270 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,400 And by that, I mean, um, you know, we have some new backing services that are coming available. 271 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,400 Um, Redis via the marketplace. 272 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,400 Um, we're working on spring cloud services, uh, via the marketplace. 273 00:21:54,400 --> 00:22:02,400 So get those reference implementations, um, get some recipes around them set up so that we can, cause I want to enable as many people as possible. 274 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,400 So if we go work with one team, we'll get a lot done with that one team, but it's still one team. 275 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:16,400 But if I do this, um, hopefully the goal is we can, we can, we can communicate through the community channels and that might uptick more than one team. 276 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:17,400 Right. 277 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,400 And it'll be a proof in concept. 278 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:19,400 We're only doing it this quarter. 279 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:20,400 We'll see. 280 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,400 And if we don't, then we'll, we'll try something else. 281 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:33,400 Um, but the small mini engagements will be, we'll just have a much more focused effort of going to work with that team to implement whatever that capability is that's now available. 282 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:44,400 So we'll target a team that needs a distributed cache or recession caching so that we can, uh, you know, improve their application and actually use Redis via the marketplace. 283 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:50,400 Um, you know, spring cloud services, we have a couple of teams that were really wanting to use Eureka, explore that. 284 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:56,400 Um, so we would target a team specifically to get that implemented and work with them on it. 285 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:02,400 Um, still doing an aptX style, like we'll get together, we'll make sure we're on the same page of what we're trying to accomplish. 286 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:14,400 But, and we'll be hands on during the time, but not this five weeks where we have a, probably a bigger pool of applications and you're kind of, you know, whatever you get done during that five weeks based on your OKRs, what you get done. 287 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,400 This will be a little bit more focused. 288 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:26,400 Um, but that's really just because like I said, there's capabilities that we're trying to deliver from the platform and everybody, um, this quarter that I think made that, uh, an option. 289 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,400 Um, and turning a little bit to the infrastructure. 290 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,400 So you're running, uh, on-premises now, uh, is, is public cloud in your future? 291 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,400 I mean, how do you think about, uh, hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, whatever you want to call it? 292 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,400 Uh, how do you see that playing out at TD Ameritrade? 293 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:47,400 So we haven't, um, uh, we haven't had a very many conversations about it other than to say that it's something we are going to do at some point. 294 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:57,400 Um, so I, like, yes, we'll be in public cloud at some point, um, hybrid cloud, um, foundations across different clouds, right? 295 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:03,400 That's kind of one of the reasons why you want to use PCF is you don't want to be stuck in a, in a single provider. 296 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:08,400 Um, but we haven't really looked into it from a point of view of actually doing it. 297 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:17,400 Um, so we'll be, um, at, at, at the end of fiscal year 19, that'll be, you know, essentially a year's worth of time we've been doing this. 298 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:26,400 And every, a lot of people say, well, you needed like the 18 month windows, that special sweet spot of whenever you're, uh, the term you guys, a lot of people use is the hockey stick starts to go up. 299 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:35,400 Um, so maybe then you have enough momentum that you can refocus a little bit of your resources towards, okay, what does it mean now to get a foundation running in public cloud? 300 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,400 What is, what has to change from our applications being further apart? 301 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,400 Um, those types of things. 302 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:48,400 Um, so I definitely think it's part of the conversation just as something in an order of magnitude this big. 303 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,400 It's like you have so many things you can prioritize and focus on at once. 304 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,400 But it gives, but PCF gives you that flexibility when you get to that point. 305 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:55,400 For sure. 306 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,400 It'll be a lot easier than if you were potentially using it. 307 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,400 Well, and I'm, uh, I was talking to people that are further along the journey here. 308 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,400 Um, uh, Comcast guys, um, couple other companies. 309 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,400 And so they obviously have foundations running in public cloud. 310 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,400 And the thing that excites me most is this, that, that how close it gets you to those public cloud services. 311 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:14,400 Right. 312 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,400 And so that's the thing about public cloud. 313 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:17,400 Yes, it's nice. 314 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:18,400 I get it. 315 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:26,400 Uh, multiple availability zones and, um, you know, being able to run on a public infrastructure, public cloud infrastructure, and so on and so forth. 316 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:33,400 But I think the, from the developer in me would be, it's just, it gets you closer to more and more services available. 317 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,400 And that if we've done the transformation, right. 318 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:42,400 If we have these product teams and we've enabled them and they've, you know, they've upskilled and they're doing great things. 319 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,400 And well, it might make sense for a team to go do some, a service that nobody else is doing. 320 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,400 Right. 321 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,400 Because for their problem, it fits. 322 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:51,400 Right. 323 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,400 Um, and some other teams might do something completely different because for their problem, it fits. 324 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,400 And, but you know, it just, the world kind of opens up once you've got there. 325 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:05,400 Um, you know, internally, there's a lot of conversations like how do you provide those services that only a single team needs? 326 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,400 Or, um, how much is that going to cost to bring in X, Y, Z for them? 327 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,400 Or are they going to have to support it on their own? 328 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,400 Those types of conversations. 329 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,400 So I, I just feel like public cloud, um, kind of opens up your world a little bit more too. 330 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:18,400 Cool. 331 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:19,400 Um, so just a couple more questions. 332 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,400 Yeah. 333 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:21,400 Very open ended. 334 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,400 So, you know, if, if you could give, let's say one or two pieces of advice, like the most 335 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,400 important lessons you've learned over the last year or so, uh, to our listeners who maybe 336 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,400 are where you are, where you were a year ago, they are now. 337 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:33,400 Uh, what would that be? 338 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:34,400 Trust pivotal. 339 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:35,400 All right. 340 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:36,400 I like that one. 341 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,400 I, I say that jokingly because, uh, we, uh, question them constantly. 342 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,400 Like, why don't you just tell us what the OKR should be? 343 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,400 You've done this 50 times. 344 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,400 Why don't you this? 345 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:50,400 And, um, like after doing it, I get it now, but you have to, so just let it kind of ride 346 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:51,400 out. 347 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,400 Don't, don't set unrealistic expectations. 348 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:54,400 Um, start small. 349 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:55,400 Uh, I don't know. 350 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:01,400 Like, I don't know that we have or haven't done this well, but I can just tell you, I, 351 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,400 it's something pivotal preached and it's something I hear the people that are the most successful, 352 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,400 they've done. 353 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:13,400 They did that well is just start with a team or two that are good and build those capabilities. 354 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,400 The platform is great. 355 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,400 Pivotal, uh, PCF is awesome, but it still doesn't come done. 356 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:20,400 Right. 357 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:21,400 There's still work to do. 358 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,400 Absolutely. 359 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,400 So like, uh, you have to do things that are specific to your environment, your specific 360 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,400 problems. 361 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:33,400 The platform engineers, um, they have to upskill their themselves and the things that are doing 362 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,400 differently. 363 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,400 Um, the app dev teams have new ways to think of things. 364 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,400 Um, so there's just a lot of things going on. 365 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,400 So if you start small, start with a couple of teams, um, really start upticking, showing 366 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:45,400 some value, right? 367 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,400 Once you start showing value, getting everybody else to want to take advantage of that value 368 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,400 is probably the easy part. 369 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,400 So I, I would definitely suggest, um, starting small. 370 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,400 Um, and then I think, uh, this is probably hard for everybody. 371 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:06,400 Um, and I definitely preach it, but struggle with it is being, you know, open to that. 372 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,400 Um, being comfortable with being uncomfortable. 373 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:14,400 Um, like as an architect and, you know, let's call it classic architect, like you want to 374 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,400 have the answers. 375 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,400 You want to, you want to make sure the thing you're doing, you're doing right. 376 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,400 And then it's going to work for everybody. 377 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,400 But I, you just can't think of it that way. 378 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:28,400 If you're really trying to achieve the agility that transformation promises, then you have 379 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,400 to let go of some of that because not every answer fits everybody. 380 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,400 Um, and it really is about shifting left and, and empowering teams to be able to do more 381 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,400 and control more of their own destiny. 382 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,400 So to do that takes a lot of trust and a willingness to try something. 383 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,400 And if it doesn't work, be like, okay, we failed and try something different. 384 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,400 Um, so that's, that's probably the one that I say it a lot, but I'm still the most uncomfortable 385 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,400 with sometimes, but you know, everybody has to grow too. 386 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,400 Absolutely. 387 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:56,400 Uh, and last question. 388 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:57,400 So we're here at CF summit. 389 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:03,400 Um, talk about the community and how that is important to what you guys are doing and, and 390 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,400 perhaps learning from, from your, uh, you know, your colleagues at different companies. 391 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,400 Uh, you know, how important is that open source community to, to the, to the development of, 392 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,400 of your platform and your transformation? 393 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,400 Yeah. 394 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:16,400 I mean, there's two aspects of it. 395 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,400 There's the open source aspect of it. 396 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,400 And, um, you, we've heard, you know, multiple police speak that once they've accepted it 397 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,400 and they, they ultimately bought into it, it really accelerated them. 398 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,400 It opened up their world. 399 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,400 Um, that's one side. 400 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,400 And I guess you could argue that it's part of the two sides of the same coin that to me, 401 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,400 just community without open source, like just community. 402 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:36,400 All right. 403 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,400 Um, we're very focused on just community. 404 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,400 Um, not that we don't use open source products we do, but we're early in our journey. 405 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,400 We're definitely not, um, highly contributing to anything or creating our own yet. 406 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,400 Right. 407 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,400 Um, so we're more focused on just community. 408 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,400 And like, to me, that's just like bringing the, the human factor back in. 409 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,400 Like it became sort of factory for a while in it. 410 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,400 And like, you know, there's a bunch of boundaries and this team does this and this team does that. 411 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,400 And like, you forgot that we're all humans. 412 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,400 And so it's like getting everybody to help each other. 413 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:10,400 And, um, so people can ask questions on the community channel and yes, my team can answer 414 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,400 more often than not, or go do some research and find the answer. 415 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:13,400 But it's awesome. 416 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,400 Whenever someone else answers that question, cause like that gives them some satisfaction. 417 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,400 They, they knew something that they've already experienced it and they helped someone else 418 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,400 out. 419 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,400 So bringing that human factor back, um, is a big part of the community. 420 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,400 Um, I don't know, I don't know if it's coincidental, but we had that, um, keynote where they were talking 421 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:30,400 about empathy. 422 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,400 Maybe that's part of it too, is the human factor empathy in my mind. 423 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,400 Um, so I think that that's a big part of it, um, as well. 424 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,400 Um, what else? 425 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:44,400 So the other thing about community is a numbers game in my sense, in a sense, like I think 426 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,400 I think of that, maybe I'm the only one, but I hope people agree with me is the open source 427 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:50,400 community. 428 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,400 And even the, what I was calling the regular community, it's a numbers game. 429 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,400 Um, so if you have a team of four developers or five developers and they're trying to solve 430 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,400 a problem, they might solve it. 431 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,400 Perfect. 432 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,400 They might come up with the most elegant solution, but if you open that up to a 5,000 people, 433 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,400 well, what are your odds that you're going to get something that fits right? 434 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,400 And yes, you'll have a lot of strong opinions, but ultimately you're just absorbing information. 435 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,400 You don't have to do anything. 436 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,400 Um, the open source community, I think about a lot like that in a numbers game. 437 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,400 So yeah, we could build a framework that does X with our architecture team and there's six 438 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,400 of us or eight of us and we're doing a great job and we're helping, um, we're helping the 439 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:29,400 rest of the developers. 440 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,400 But if like a couple of people mentioned that we intersource that, well, now we can have 441 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,400 a developer contribute something that we didn't even think about. 442 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,400 And now that maybe unlocks a bunch of other things. 443 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:44,400 So it's like, that's the kind of aspect of like just bringing different perspectives, 444 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:50,400 making it a safe space to talk or experiment and just see what great things come out of 445 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:51,400 it. 446 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,400 Absolutely. 447 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:53,400 I think that's a great, great place to end on. 448 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,400 Awesome. 449 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,400 Bob, thanks so much. 450 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,400 This has been great. 451 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:57,400 I'm sure our listeners will really enjoy it. 452 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:57,400 All right. 453 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,400 Appreciate it. 454 00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:59,400 Thank you very much. 455 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:00,400 Thank you.