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Well, I think I might have a tapeworm or something because over the past few days, and I want to ask your advice on this, Richard and guest, like I have just had this insatiable appetite.

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Like this morning, I had an extremely large breakfast. I had a two egg omelet with a sliced up bratwurst in it, and then two pieces of toast with butter and strawberry jam, and then also a small orange.

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But I feel like I feel like that's an inordinate. Usually I have like 50 to 100 grams of steel cut oats. That's all I eat. So I don't know what's going on.

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And then I had a lunch that was like some smoked fish. And then I had a bunch of chips. And then I had I don't even remember what it was, but it was just intense.

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And then and then yesterday for breakfast, I had half of a leftover pizza. So I mean, I know I'm not pregnant, so we can eliminate that. But I feel like there's something going on that I need some help with.

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This isn't sustainable.

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No, no, I mean, I haven't seen you physically in a little while, but hopefully I can still hug you when I see you in a few months.

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Yeah, it could be a growth spurt.

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Yeah, I think you're fun at that age.

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That's what I was thinking.

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You're gonna be like seven to the next time I see you.

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Uh huh. Uh huh. Yeah. I mean, that's not unknown to happen, maybe in the entire history of humans for someone in their early 40s to have a growth spurt.

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I guess it could happen. It could be that you when you move to Europe, your body was like subconsciously wanted to grow larger than to meet the northern European.

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I think you're right. I think you're right. I'm trying to fit in with the the the descendants of the barbarians.

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I've got to make sure I can I can do it. That's that's that's uh, okay. I'm I like that theory because it's positive. So I'm gonna order a couple pizzas for tonight and tomorrow morning.

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Yeah, you're you're not leaving anything out, right? You're not like running marathons for fun now or just, you know, no, there's reasons to be that hungry.

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No, yeah, yeah, I yeah, I don't know. I can't figure it out now. So this reminds me of something I was realizing recently speaking. I was I was eating some pizza. I spoke at a meetup a couple nights ago.

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First of all, they gave me a bottle of champagne as a speaker gift, which, you know, all meetups should aspire to be so polite.

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But as with all meetups, they had they had all sorts of pizza and I and I spotted this one pizza that I was getting a slice of and it was like it was like mushrooms with like some shredded pork or maybe beef on top or something and I had some other ones.

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And so I got around to eating the shredded beef one and it was the strangest tasted shredded beef that I've ever had.

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And then I realized it was tuna because they love putting tuna on pizza over here.

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Now, in fact, our babysitter, that's her favorite. You get tuna pizza, which I mean, you know, I don't want to tell people how to live their life, but it made me realize that I've always had slight issue with with European pizzas like they're a little different.

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And I think that the issue is that Europeans, they think of pizza as a sandwich.

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They don't think of it as a distinct thing, because the other thing you'll notice is there's basically lunch meat on pizzas over here.

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At best, you'll get like prosciutto, but they don't have like pepperoni, you know.

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So I think this is my new operating theory is is in Europe, a pizza is really just a sandwich that's been flattened out.

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Man, that is a definition of a hot take right there.

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I mean, I thought you were going to go further on the hey, I thought I was eating beef and I realized it was tuna sort of switcheroo,

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which I would have compared to like eating a muffin thinking it was chocolate chip and finding raisins.

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But no, you took it as a sandwich route, which was, you know, it's it's it's I I because I feel I am the one responsible for having eaten a tuna pizza because at this point I should know better.

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Like I should have spotted that and immediately been like, nope, I don't like that.

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That's tuna pizza. But I was I had my guard down.

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Did you not think it was weird that there was shredded beef on a pizza to start with?

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Well, I mean, see, exactly. Exactly.

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That was my failing is I should have.

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I mean, I think I was a little excited, but I think I think maybe I had that, you know, kind of pre speaking, like not really thinking about things straight,

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trying to trying to like socialize with people there or find a corner to hide out.

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And I just I just wasn't on my pizza game.

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It was it was upsetting.

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But, you know, speaking of American pizza, where where was the Microsoft Build conference?

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Was that where was that located?

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It was here in Seattle, which I was also having a team off site in Seattle this week.

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So there was a lot of things happening here.

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Oh, very nice. It wasn't in Orlando or in Las Vegas.

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That's great.

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They had they had it all there.

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Think of the savings they had of all the employees not having to travel anywhere.

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That's good stuff.

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Yeah. Well, there was there was there was a lot of announcements going on there.

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And as always, you being a Microsoft MVP and having recently written a book on modernizing dot net applications,

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I'm sure you are the best informed to to go over.

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But it seems like my summary of the announcements, I think that that we and listeners would care about.

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There's there's a lot of Kubernetes support.

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So lots of things working around in there.

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There's some part more partnerships with with other people as far as things you can run on Azure.

56
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And then my broad, open ended question for for for you was like reading through all the SQL Server related announcements.

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It made me and, you know, this sounds slightly purposely absurd, but it made me realize that like SQL Server is kind of a big deal.

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Like, am I wrong?

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Like it gets used everywhere.

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Right. Like it's but people don't seem to talk about it very much.

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Like, I don't think I mean, maybe it's just like my I think you call it a selection bias, but it's not like over the past 20 years, SQL Server has been like up in my face all the time, like my SQL or whatever a Kafka is or all these other things.

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No, I think you're right. I mean, it's a really bizarre phenomenon because you're right.

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Sometimes I'll see it. I tweeted something yesterday about a new SQL Server library that's getting consolidated between .NET and .NET Core thinking like, yeah, everybody's using this.

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I forgot about that. I just looked at the DB ranking and like Microsoft SQL Server still number three, like Oracle number one, my SQL number two, SQL Server number three.

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Then you have Postgres and Mongo and fun stuff like that. So it's everywhere.

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But you're right. I just it doesn't feel like we're talking about it very much.

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And maybe just because it's simply boring, established tech that does evolve, but not at the same rate as the other crazy tech we all use nowadays.

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So, yeah, I know it's one of these most used, under talked about things.

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Yeah. And do they do they still like build a lot of things into it or is it kind of just like a relational database still?

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Like what's the what's the brand umbrella for SQL Server now?

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No, it's still been beefed up to, you know, as usual, all the analytics, all the data movement, you know, storing different types of data now.

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They're, you know, JSON stuff for JavaScript and it runs on Linux now.

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It's one of the more popular container images that you can run on Linux, at least for developers, you know, millions plus pulls from the Docker Hub.

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So people are running it on Linux. You're running it on Windows. You're, you know, running it in the cloud on Azure SQL.

75
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So it's the brand is now kind of cloud on prem, you know, big stuff, little stuff.

76
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So you've done a good job with it. Maybe maybe you and I are just missing everyone else talking about it.

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Could be. Yeah. See, like, for example, just just right there, like everyone's always excited about like, you know, I don't know, Windows running on Linux or Linux running on Windows or whatever.

78
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But like SQL Server runs in a Docker container. That seems like something you would name check all the time as far as like, you know, the world is topsy-turvy for us olds.

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But but not. But not. There you go. Well, what else? What else caught y'all's fancy from from Microsoft build?

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Yeah, right. I mean, you know, a bunch of serverless announcements, new improvements to Azure functions and stateful functions and stuff at the edge and some new developer tooling was nice.

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And I think it's a private beta, but an online version of their Visual Studio Code sort of editor.

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So, you know, Visual Studio Online sort of stuff. So, you know, as usual, it's an absolute grab bag of things from cloud stuff to AI stuff, some new machine learning libraries shipped and things like that.

83
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Every service seems to try to get their announcement in there. It's it seems that we we're all doing conference driven development as an industry now.

84
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So everyone anchors their big announcements for conferences. But yeah, no, it was it was a great grab bag of stuff.

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I don't know if anything stood out to me. It's like here was the one crazy thing they announced, Derek.

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I don't know if anything stood out to you in that respect.

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No, I tried to I tried to follow up, follow some of the news and I found it nigh impossible to keep up.

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So I'm glad I'm glad it's not my job anymore. But yeah, I mean, there was a lot of stuff and nothing.

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Yeah, nothing. Nothing was mind blowing. Right. Nothing was. Wow.

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This is this is like this is a game changer. It was kind of like, yeah, just a lot of improvements, a lot of improvements.

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They did announce a partnership with Starbucks, which I thought was cool just because predictive drive through ordering seems to be the the what's my my words escape me sometimes.

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But that's the that's the that's the that's the thing of the day in restaurants or fast, fast service restaurants.

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They say McDonald's is doing it. Just bought a startup and now Starbucks wants to do it.

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So, you know, that was a I guess Microsoft's going to help him with that.

95
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So that was, you know, what is this predictive drive through?

96
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Is that is that for Starbucks or for me, the customer to figure out when I should go there?

97
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So apparently when you drive up, it will somehow be able to know who that you're driving up and get your order ready or suggest or suggest on a digital screen, like the handful of things that thinks you might want to order.

98
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That's I'm guessing. I'm guessing if you have the Starbucks app, it would clock that you are in the vicinity.

99
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Yeah. Yeah. That would be that would be some exciting machine learning stories for the next three years.

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Right. Like like it'd be a good basis of like I tested this out and here's what Starbucks that I wanted.

101
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And then and then, you know, you could try to, you know, fool it by training it and ordering the wrong things and absurd stuff.

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Or I know, you know, if you're playing a prank, you could like borrow someone's car and dress up like them and start ordering like, you know, double large peppermint frappes or something.

103
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And just see if you do that five times when they drive up, they'll be forced to get one of those.

104
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That's right. I don't know how it works, but I don't think they're scanning license plates.

105
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That might be a privacy bridge too far at the moment.

106
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Yeah. But just keep going up there ordering tuna pizzas and then that one time you actually show up.

107
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Stupid. Why are they giving me tuna pizza?

108
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That's also, you know, there's been a lot of I haven't really studied this very followed up on it or whatever.

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But, you know, there's all these like ethics boards around AI stuff.

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But there's sort of an odd technical complication of like the simplest thing for what you're saying would be to just scan your license plate and be like this license plate wanted that thing.

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But that culturally bad idea. So you've got to like hack your way into all these other ways of identifying someone.

112
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Yeah. Well, you know, my car wash did that without without asking me as far as I can.

113
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But I do get free car washes every 10th watch. So I'm always surprised.

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Yeah. I hope that's in some subsection of GDPR that I can finally agree to is like if if if requester is being given a free car wash, you do not have to ask them to click an accept button.

115
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And that would be nice. You're right, though. It's funny how we did that with with data was like, well, we're going to.

116
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Yeah, this is this is the whole story of big data to begin with. Right. Companies will just ask you for what they wanted.

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They would have to get it. They would have to identify you in all these other ways.

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So it's collected everything you did to build a profile like just ask. Yeah, maybe maybe probably they'll tell you.

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Yeah. You know, I mean, coincidentally, so there was also a one of the build things was that there's I think I think it's either you can run or integrate with or whatever, like some Kubernetes stuff on an Azure edge thing, which I assume is just like a small device somewhere.

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But it reminded me of last year, the the Chick-fil-A people were talking about how they do their in-store mini Kubernetes clusters.

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And I went back to go look at their engineering blog, as it were, and I found a post that I'd missed from, I don't know, sometime in the fall.

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And it goes over. I think it's machine learning in so far as just image recognition.

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It's fascinating to read it. It's kind of like it's kind of like what you always hope one of those Raspberry Pi write ups is, like something that's actually useful, I guess.

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And it's this whole overview of how the problem they were solving is like you set these timers, not only for how long you cook something, but how long, you know, like chicken can be left out.

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I mean, I guess obviously chicken, chicken can be left out and like setting the timer is cumbersome.

126
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So they they it's kind of like remember that interview, that podcast we had a long time ago about a food services company that was optimizing all the software in the kitchen.

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It's a similar thing where they they switched over their timer to a touchscreen and then and then they found out another problem was like it would be nice to automatically time how long the chickens have been out.

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And anyways, it involves like a camera and some machine learning and barcodes.

129
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And it's it's a fun story of actual like doing digital stuff in the kitchen Monday to Saturday, as it were.

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Yeah, I'm kind of similar to offering coffee to buy.

131
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So then also also in in Richard related news.

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So .NET Core is becoming all of .NET.

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Right. What did it would explain to us what that means?

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Yeah, I mean, that's had confusing branding for a while because you had .NET Framework, which refers to kind of the classic .NET that runs on Windows.

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And then you had what was really a it wasn't even a fork.

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It was just like a different version of .NET that was built to be cross platform, multi language, kind of built from the ground up to be more modular.

137
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Things like that was that's .NET Core.

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And so those two things kind of live side by side.

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They had different version numbers, you know, you have one going up for four, four, five, four, eight, another one going one, two, whatever.

140
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So this announcement instead of announcements was, look, .NET 5 is the new thing.

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And by the way, .NET 5 equals new .NET Core and .NET Framework is kind of frozen at four, eight.

142
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So once your brain kind of digests all that, I think that the story was, look, any new project should be .NET Core.

143
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Your existing .NET Framework stuff, it's not like it's retired.

144
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It's just we're probably not adding any more to it.

145
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It's done, if you will.

146
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It's kind of feature complete from our perspective.

147
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So I think that just means for most organizations who have a lot of .NET and, look, it's still all over the place, as you'd make sense, you know, as you'd expect.

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It's still, you know, Windows is still half of the server environment.

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So most of that's probably running .NET stuff.

150
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So it doesn't mean you have to retire it tomorrow, but it does mean things like, hey, what we do with app transformation and things like that is really valuable stuff because you do want to put yourself back on some sort of mainline path

151
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where you're not worried about being on what will inevitably be something that's unsupported.

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Yep.

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Yeah.

154
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And so this is like, as I think is increasingly becoming the case, the Windows news update.

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Have you noticed that?

156
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We're always talking about Microsoft and Windows, coincidentally.

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But also over in part of Pivotal Cloud Foundry, the PaaS section, somewhat delightfully, confusingly named.

158
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There's also a Windows Server 2019 support that we've added in.

159
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And so, you know, and I was just realizing, do we call that like Pawswa?

160
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Like we need to come up with a way of pronouncing P-S-A-W.

161
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I was thinking possum or Pawswa, but there must be some way of saying that.

162
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Yeah, the S is silent.

163
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It would just be paw.

164
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Just paw.

165
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Right, right.

166
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Like an animal paw, not like a hillbilly's, you know, dad, basically.

167
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That's right.

168
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Not pawpaw.

169
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Right.

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So, yeah, so we did ship PaaS for Windows, as we call it, to five.

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And I did look up last night.

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And the last kind of server OS count was at 49.6% of server OSes are Windows.

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So, I mean, it's still all over the place on the server.

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And I say that because all the apps running on those things, especially when they're custom apps, need a better place to run.

175
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And I'm willing to go to the mat with anyone that still what we do with PaaS for Windows and Cloud Foundry with Windows is still the best way to run custom built .NET apps, especially in the enterprise, probably in the cloud as well.

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So, if you're looking for a better place for your .NET apps, the best place keeps getting better.

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That's right.

178
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And then, finally, there was a post from our head of product, so to speak, Ansi, where I think he was doing a very concise sort of roadmap, if you will, of things coming up.

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And, of course, there was continuing our thread, continuing Windows support, including in Pivotal Container Service being worked on.

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And it seemed like, from what he was saying, sort of a unification of using all of the Envoy and Istio-based things for all your routing and wiring together stuff across whatever the OS and things may be, which is what you would want in a cloud environment.

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And then sort of just like a continual evolution of the idea of this is the platform for if you have an application and you want to deploy it to whatever type of cloud infrastructure scheme you want, it should be pretty easy to do in this setup.

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Now, I'm giving a painfully concise version of a concise overview, but what were the more detailed things that you thought were fun to look at there?

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Yeah, it was a good post from Ansi, who heads up engineering.

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You know, I think the main takeaways were, you know, A, Pivotal always does a lot of open source work.

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The numbers last week, Matt, as they were sharing it on Twitter, I think Pivotal was the number two by percentage of employee contributed to open source, which was, you know, it's amazing stuff.

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And so we always build a lot of open source.

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We integrate a lot of open source for a lot of companies that de-risks them because they're not the ones stuck, you know, stitching all these things together to try to build a platform.

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So all of this open source for years, just a reminder that, you know, we've swapped container orchestrators once, we've changed container runtimes three times, we've changed the networking stack in Cloud Foundry, we've changed all these things over time because that's what good platforms do, right?

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You know, Amazon swapped out hypervisors a few years ago.

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Did anyone realize that?

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Probably not, right?

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Everybody always evolves the underlying pieces of the platform.

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If not, you should be really concerned about that platform because that means they're probably getting stagnant.

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So one was, hey, this reminder that we're going to keep integrating all this great open source as it matures, Kubernetes included.

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At the same time, we're always innovating on top with great new things, cloud native build packs, things like that.

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And then the future is going to continue to be componentized to some extent of different best parts of PAS and Cloud Foundry and Pivotal that you can run kind of on any sort of infrastructure as well as that vertically integrated stack when you just want to go fast on any sort of infrastructure.

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So it's nice to see that evolution continue, the innovation continue, and I thought Ansi did a nice job of putting it in context.

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Well, and then finally, as just a point to, if that's a way of saying it, there's last week, I believe, in The Economist, there was basically a special report this week, not on, you know, some obscure, at least for, you know, us Americans, some obscure country embedded somewhere and how their, you know, central bank is just driving fascinating things as they want to cover.

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But it was on essentially like, to use our tech world terminology, disrupting in the banking and financial world.

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And when, you know, other than the sort of cases that they go over, right, of course, there's kind of in a nauseating way, it's like millennials and what they do, which is always like fun.

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And I always like to think that, you know, they're probably like in their 30s now, so they're probably getting to be more and more just like the rest of us, beset with life and all that excitement.

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But on a brighter side, one thing that's kind of entertaining in the coverage to notice is like at the very beginning, they're like, well, we're going to cover like crazy, interesting things happening in banking, except in the U.S.

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Where there's a bunch of regulations and it's annoying.

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And so there's just like a whole, a whole major market of banking is just like knocked out of the analysis, which is, which is curious.

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But I think, I think what's the, the more interesting part that they go over that, that which I think is, is worth looking at is how essentially a lot of the, as we used to call them ride sharing services, because in various parts of the world, they essentially have financial access to you.

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I don't know how else to put that.

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Like you pay people and get paid through them, that they are extremely well positioned to basically do banking, which I think, you know, also you can apply that same strategic idea to things like Apple Pay and other people who are just like figuring out being middle people in the flow of cash everywhere.

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But there's a nice little package to look at with some delightful economist charts and funny little graphics if you're into that thing.

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Well, I never asked you to, uh, introduce yourself guest.

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So do you want to introduce yourself?

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Sure.

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I, I assume people just know, but of course you get a very distinct voice.

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They're like, Oh, I know who that is.

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I know.

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I know who that is.

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Yes.

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I'm Derek Harris.

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I work at pivotal.

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Is that, is that a good enough introduction?

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You want the full, that was great.

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That was, that was like a, that was like a pre 240 character, 280 character, a Twitter bio.

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That's good stuff.

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Did you see that they let you, uh, as, as a footnote side note here, do you see that they

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let you put images in to retweets or something?

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I mean, I almost put that as the news item for this week, just cause that's really going

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to have a big impact on my life.

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Yeah.

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What, uh, how is this going to affect us, us, us three here and people like us?

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What, what do I need to be training for?

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Maybe this is why my appetite is increased.

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Just the anticipation.

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Yeah.

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More, more blood to your brain is needed.

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So I don't know.

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I think it just, uh, you know, if you want the retweet with commentary that just includes

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a picture, like no words, just something from dodge ball or, you know, whatever you have

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choice.

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I think that's going to be a power move now, not just the retweet alone.

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And I even just with some pithy words like, no, here's just a picture.

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I see that is.

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So basically there's going to be that like fry narrowing eyes animated gif.

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And then that Homer backing up into bushes is just going to appear everywhere now.

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Like, that's right.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Along with like, along with like honey boo boo or stuff I don't know about.

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Yeah.

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I'm just going to spend more time coming up with, not with pithy words, but instead just

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pictures that represent my feelings.

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So I'll say even less.

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Got it.

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Got it.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Well, back to you guest.

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You just keep calling me guest too.

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That's fine.

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You know, it feels, uh, it's fun guest, a special guest.

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You could even have that.

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Uh, so what, uh, tell us a little bit about, uh, I don't know what you've been doing over

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the past few years.

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Uh, like what, uh, what's, what do you, what do you like doing with your time professionally?

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So, so many things, so many of the things.

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Um, yeah.

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So let's see.

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So I assume, I always assume, and this could be the time travels faster now, I think.

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So I, I assume many people know me from GigaOM where I wrote, if anyone remembers the, the

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original incarnation of GigaOM, right.

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Where I cover, but I wrote a lot about cloud computing and big data and artificial intelligence.

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Um, I helped put on and plan and interview people at the, the various structure conferences.

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So structure and structured data and all these things.

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So, so I mean, that is, you know, that was probably the, the, uh, the, the most memorable

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thing that people seem to connect me to.

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Um, however, in, in the meantime, GigaOM went out of business in 2015 and March.

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And since then, let's see, I've spent some time working at Mesosphere.

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I've spent some time working at a small startup called Replicated.

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And I started my own newsletter, podcast, news site, that's what's called a publishing empire

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called Architect.

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Uh, as I always remind people, spelled T-E-C-H-T as in technology, architect, with an H through

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at the end of there.

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Uh, frankly, if the correct URL had been available, I just would take a mat, but you know, if you

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do what you, you do what you could do.

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Um, and, and so, so, so, so yeah, so that's what I've been up to.

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And I joined Pivotal in July.

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So, oh yeah, almost a year, almost a year.

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And I'm doing all sorts of fun, uh, editorial and content.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You, you, yeah, I think over the years you've always had, uh, one, one of the, uh, I mean,

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I don't know what the ordering of the top three or five or whatever it is, but one of the

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better, like roundups of all the, uh, the, the cloud.

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And as you say, AI and stuff like that news.

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Like I remember, uh, wasn't it GigaOM that was like a quarterly, like, I'm kind of exaggerating

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here, but like 50 page PDF summarizing all the cloud news of that quarter that you did.

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Well, as briefly.

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So yeah, so GigaOM had, you can, you, we can get all into the, the, the, the Giga, the

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demise of GigaOM, but, uh, GigaOM had an editorial business and a research business and right for

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a while I worked on the research side and yes, once a quarter, this would have been back.

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I'm sure someone else kept doing it.

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I did it maybe in 2009, early 2010.

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And it would be like, it would be, yeah, it would be like once a quarter, you would just

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go through.

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So I'd be collecting stuff all quarter and then go back and like do this highlight, this

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big recap of like, here's everything that happened now.

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Of course, that would be 5,000 pages and you could do that.

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Like, so when I started doing a newsletter, I was like, I think I have to do it daily.

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Because of the things that, when I see things I think are interesting, there's, there's at

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least 10 things a day.

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So totally.

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There's so much stuff happening.

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It's crazy.

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Yeah.

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So what do you, so I mean, as you've watched that whole journey of cloud from just the

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thing that, you know, people talked about, but no one was using, or it was just kind of

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completely bleeding edge to where we stand today, where you have to have a legitimate

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reason to not be using cloud computing.

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I mean, what do you think of that history?

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What have you seen?

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Are there any sort of mile markers along the way that you thought caused maybe a big lurch

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forward for everyone in the industry to kind of start adopting certain things?

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What have you kind of noticed from a macro perspective over that time?

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Well, it's funny.

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I mean, I think the number one thing I've noticed from a macro perspective is that it's

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kind of come full circle in the sense that if you look at cloud today versus whatever, moving

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to AWS launch 2006, technically, if my, if my memory is correct.

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But, but, but it used to be like, now it's just kind of, it's table stakes, right?

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To use an overused term, but it's, it's what's expected, right?

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And there are big, there are big fat multi-year contracts.

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There are a handful of providers, you know, to me, well, that's probably the weirdest thing

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is that it's just, it's, it's the, people are lifting and shifting applications there,

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right?

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I mean, that's a big, that's a, that seemed to be like Google's big push recently.

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Like that, it's, it's kind of, I mean, on, on the one hand, as a business, you go cloud

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computing.

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That's not like, why are we still calling it cloud computing?

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It seems like just enterprise IT at this point, right?

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So I think that, I mean, on the macro level, that's probably the biggest thing.

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But of course, all along the way, there have been these things, you know, these, you know,

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there have been these improvements to the way IT functions, I think that, that have propelled

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it to where it is, right?

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I mean, just the speed of provisioning infrastructure as was kind of eyeopening, the programmatic

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nature of it, the, you know, security and reliability and all these things.

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And honestly, I think people were maybe rightfully afraid of in, you know, 2008, but now they've

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realized, yeah, these things are, uh, some recent history excluded like last month or earlier

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this month, uh, these things are pretty reliable, like much, like, like, you know, like, I think

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a lot of the fears have been ameliorated.

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Now it's, now it's a matter of, okay, how do we get there?

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Cause we're, we're, we're, we're pretty convinced this is the right way to go.

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And we trust, we trust these companies.

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So would you have, would you have anticipated that we'd be dealing with a few mega vendors

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now versus just some sort of garden of providers that we all would have picked for vertical needs

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or for geographic needs.

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So was this pretty inevitable in your mind or is where we stand today, a surprise to you?

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Well, you know what, when I first started, I was definitely in, and it could have been

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just Nebitae.

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Um, I, I was pretty, I was pretty convinced there was going to be a handful of small providers

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and men, maybe that's just because that's what the small providers were telling me.

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Right.

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And I was like, okay, if you say so, you must know more than I do.

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Um, because it seemed like, you know, cause again, Amazon came out of nowhere to go, okay,

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well, who are the, this was a bookstore.

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And then, but right for a while, I mean, if I look back, there was, you know, if I look

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back at all the cloud providers I've taught or anyone who called himself a cloud provider

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that I've, even if it was a glorified hosting provider that I've spoken with over the years,

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I think, I think, right.

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You'd be forgiven for thinking, oh, some of these are going to last.

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And it's going to be, you know, why wouldn't there be a cloud for,

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you know, the, the film industry for rendering that just specialized on rendering?

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Why wouldn't there be some high performance cloud?

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Why wouldn't there be all these things?

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Well, it turns out it's just easier for the, for the big cloud vendors to, to do all that.

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So, but I think for a while, just if you looked at history, it was like, yeah, of course,

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why wouldn't there be, I think, I mean, I think platforms have always been a thing,

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but I don't know, maybe it's, maybe it's, and maybe my history is incorrect, but just

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when you see the rise of platforms everywhere today, from your phone to your social media

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to everything, it's like, oh, okay.

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It would, this was probably inevitably going to be the, the way it worked out.

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But yeah, for a while, I really thought it's like, there's going to be Google and Microsoft

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and Amazon.

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I actually Google for a while wasn't even on the radar.

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And then there's going to be rack space and go grid and God, or some of the other ones

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that I've talked to that I used to talk about.

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It's like, you know, they, they allow the space.

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Sure.

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Why not?

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Maybe not.

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No, I mean, the Gardner magic quadrant would have put 15, 20 providers in there for IAS

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and everybody was upstarts.

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And now I don't think they're really doing that, that MQ the same way anymore, just because

390
00:29:39,540 --> 00:29:44,720
it's not as, not as meaningful, but have you, uh, what do you think of the lock-in concern?

391
00:29:44,820 --> 00:29:45,940
Is that just overblown?

392
00:29:46,020 --> 00:29:47,340
Is that us forgetting history?

393
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,000
Is that us realizing that this is different than maybe the giant providers of the eighties

394
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:52,580
and nineties?

395
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,660
Is that something anybody should really care about?

396
00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:57,600
I, I mean, I think there's something there.

397
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,680
I don't think it's, I would say it's, it's, it's probably different and you probably have

398
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,740
a better take on this than I do, but it seems different in the sense that, you know, we're

399
00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:12,000
not tightly coupled to hardware or, you know, we're not definitely not tightly coupled, you

400
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,860
know, in many cases, like an operating system, or I think the level of lock-in is definitely

401
00:30:15,860 --> 00:30:20,000
different, but on the other, but, but it's, you know, it's kind of an API lock-in.

402
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:25,680
And, um, you know, there's, I think so much stuff is built on open source today though,

403
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:32,240
too, that theoretically you can put together a stack of things that are running, that are

404
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,660
running based on open source components.

405
00:30:33,660 --> 00:30:36,440
And there's, there's less of a risk of lock-in, right.

406
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,860
Um, I don't know my, my thoughts come and go on this on the one hand, I think, well, you

407
00:30:40,860 --> 00:30:49,220
know, if it's the, you know, if the switching cost is not insurmountable, then I don't know.

408
00:30:49,260 --> 00:30:53,200
I mean, sometimes it seems like the switching cost from Oracle is insurmountable.

409
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,160
So people don't do it right.

410
00:30:54,220 --> 00:30:58,820
I, I don't, I don't know the reason all the time, but, um, yeah, I think, I think it's

411
00:30:58,820 --> 00:31:02,780
a concern, but I also think, you know, depending on the level, right.

412
00:31:02,780 --> 00:31:07,140
I think to, to be obsessed with lock-in is probably, it's probably going to impede progress

413
00:31:07,140 --> 00:31:08,340
at any level, right.

414
00:31:08,620 --> 00:31:11,340
Whether it's the ISV level, whether it's a cloud level, whether it's whatever, like

415
00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:12,580
you're going to accept some of it.

416
00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:17,440
And anyone who thinks that we're in this world where you just get to use like upstream

417
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,840
open source and, and everything's going to be better and nothing, you're not locked into

418
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,680
anything is just wrong, right?

419
00:31:22,780 --> 00:31:25,720
So I think you have to accept, like, there's going to be some, you just have to pick and

420
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:26,360
choose your places.

421
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:26,980
Yeah.

422
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:27,280
Yeah.

423
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:33,320
There needs to be some kind of like a three hour, uh, panel discussion about like the

424
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,800
new lock-in or something.

425
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:40,060
Cause it is, uh, you know, just like we were doing earlier, lock-in used to mean, uh, basically

426
00:31:40,060 --> 00:31:45,440
like, uh, I'm running my stuff on windows and, and that was like lock-in as far as I could

427
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:45,580
tell.

428
00:31:45,580 --> 00:31:48,900
Cause if you were running your stuff on open source back in the early two thousands, there

429
00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:49,660
was no lock-in.

430
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:50,560
Everything was cool.

431
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,500
And so it was just, and just so much of it felt like it was packaged stuff.

432
00:31:55,620 --> 00:31:59,500
Like if you were locked into IBM or you were locked into some of these Oracle or even Microsoft

433
00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:02,720
at the time, it's like, you're not just going to suck your stuff out of SharePoint and run

434
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:03,760
it in some other CMS.

435
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,780
Like it was just completely coupled to it versus most of the software today that I write or

436
00:32:08,780 --> 00:32:11,100
I buy really can run kind of anywhere.

437
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:11,680
Yeah.

438
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:12,060
Yeah.

439
00:32:12,060 --> 00:32:17,760
So, so, so, and, and, you know, so, uh, there's something that people think about lock-in

440
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,300
as, and, uh, I don't know, it'd be nice to redefine.

441
00:32:21,380 --> 00:32:25,400
Maybe, maybe now that you don't have, Gartner doesn't have to track the magic quadrant of the

442
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:26,720
three major cloud providers.

443
00:32:27,260 --> 00:32:31,280
Uh, they could, they could come up with some, uh, they get those Burton group people to write

444
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,220
some treaties on lock-in or something.

445
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:34,640
That would be a fun read.

446
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:41,320
80 pages on lock-in looking forward to it, but yeah, you know, uh, so, well also, so related,

447
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,740
you know, we were joking about how, uh, uh, you know, used to do a quarterly and then, and then

448
00:32:45,740 --> 00:32:49,700
for some reason you decided it was a good idea to do a weekly news roundup of, of, I guess,

449
00:32:49,740 --> 00:32:53,160
cause like you said, it would have to be 50,000 pages if you did it quarterly.

450
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,820
So you got to do it every, every couple of times a week, but now, uh, at pivotal, you started

451
00:32:57,820 --> 00:33:00,080
a new newsletter called, uh, intersect.

452
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:01,960
So what, what's this letter all about?

453
00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:10,560
Yeah, intersect is a, a newsletter and a website, uh, pivotal.io slash intersect where, you know,

454
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,160
targeting, I would say CIOs, I'm gonna be a little specific, but you know, anyone kind

455
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,420
of in the C suite and the executive suite at a large company, just, and just trying to

456
00:33:19,420 --> 00:33:21,780
give, give some perspective for what's happening, right?

457
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,500
So the newsletter is going to catch you get a little analysis, it's going to catch you

458
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:27,620
up with, if you're reading it, it's going to catch you up with what's, what's happening

459
00:33:27,620 --> 00:33:31,760
in the week, not following every piece of industry news and every piece of software vendor

460
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,940
news or cloud provider news, because again, that's, that's probably overkill.

461
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,520
And if, you know, you, you, you, you, honestly, I don't think that's a level where most folks

462
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,460
need to be keeping up, but, but more keeping up with like, well, like what are trends, right?

463
00:33:43,460 --> 00:33:48,640
Like what are some big, some bigger things or some use cases or some applications of, of

464
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:49,720
these things to keep an eye on, right?

465
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,380
I hope, I hope it's a little more useful in the sense of, Hey, what's this company doing

466
00:33:53,380 --> 00:33:57,200
that might be in my space or, you know, how are, how are, how are these companies using

467
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:58,560
AI, right?

468
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,300
Or what, Ooh, what's this big security, what's the latest security breach I need to worry about

469
00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:03,500
now?

470
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:04,500
You know, are we protected?

471
00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:08,780
Like, like that sort of thing, rather than like Microsoft, you know, running down the,

472
00:34:08,780 --> 00:34:11,400
uh, the 57 things Microsoft announced this week.

473
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:11,920
Yeah.

474
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,360
And it does something that like, it's, I think it's hard for a lot of, uh, new sites to do,

475
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,660
which is, it not only has, you know, there's not only like, uh, I don't know what do you call

476
00:34:20,660 --> 00:34:25,840
original content, like, like the, its own content there, but like, you also list, uh, related

477
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:31,920
things that are happening off, off of the URL as it were, which, which exactly serves the

478
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,020
point of what you're saying is like, you know, here's, you can keep up with things that are

479
00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:39,660
relevant to this, uh, this space and, and, and beyond that you might be interested in.

480
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:45,360
And, uh, I don't know, it's, it's, it's, uh, there's not a whole lot of like in the, uh,

481
00:34:45,820 --> 00:34:50,260
I don't know what to call it, enterprise infrastructure kind of space.

482
00:34:50,660 --> 00:34:52,680
Uh, sort of coverage, like, like, like that.

483
00:34:52,740 --> 00:34:56,900
A lot of it is just, you know, what's the latest odd Facebook thing or what's up with

484
00:34:56,900 --> 00:34:57,640
the pixel phone.

485
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,140
So it's nice to have a, a reconcentration of that, which, which is like, I think, I think

486
00:35:02,140 --> 00:35:06,260
you've always provided lists of stuff like that in the past, but you sort of, uh, tirelessly

487
00:35:06,260 --> 00:35:07,160
have kept that up.

488
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:07,960
Yeah.

489
00:35:08,020 --> 00:35:12,000
I hope people appreciate my, you know, 600 words of opining at the beginning.

490
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:18,120
I, I, I, I think I like to think that I've, that I've, I figured out something over the

491
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,740
years as I'm pushing 40 and have, have some, uh, if I have some insights to share, but, but

492
00:35:22,740 --> 00:35:23,420
yeah, and I think you're right.

493
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,500
I mean, just curating, curating the fire hose of, of news is like, right.

494
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,000
You know, you can't, you can't play the horse race game of like, you know, keeping up with

495
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,100
every single thing I was, as I was looking this week, it was like, there were about every

496
00:35:36,100 --> 00:35:39,840
new site, at least some of the, some of the ones had like, you know, 15 headlines

497
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,700
with Microsoft is the first word and announces probably as a second word.

498
00:35:43,780 --> 00:35:46,380
And then another 15 for Google, which is all about smartphones.

499
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,460
And then a couple about the TPU clusters that you can rent from Google cloud.

500
00:35:50,660 --> 00:35:53,100
And then, but it was like, there's this big stack of things, right?

501
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:53,560
So there's that.

502
00:35:53,660 --> 00:35:55,660
And then, yeah, there's, there's trying to keep up with that.

503
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,820
And then there's trying to keep up with the, the, you know, just, or there's trying to

504
00:35:59,820 --> 00:36:00,500
break out of, right.

505
00:36:00,500 --> 00:36:05,560
Like the Facebook, Netflix, like the thing discussion and, and what's, what's this kind

506
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,820
of, there's a very, uh, very fun and interesting, uh, discussion at the,

507
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,800
I guess you would call it the enterprise IT layer.

508
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:14,640
That's more, more impactful than, and more meaningful.

509
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,420
I hope than just trying to keep up with the news.

510
00:36:17,420 --> 00:36:21,560
Cause again, who, like if you were to choose a cloud, if you were thinking like, you know

511
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,300
what I'm going to do, I'm going to follow Microsoft build, and then I'm going to decide

512
00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:26,000
what my cloud provider is, right?

513
00:36:26,020 --> 00:36:26,880
Like that's not your plan.

514
00:36:27,660 --> 00:36:28,600
That's not a lot of use.

515
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,560
Cause Amazon will hold a pop-up event next month and announce 15 different things.

516
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:33,780
Right.

517
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,760
And it's just, you can't, you can't play that game.

518
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,600
So it's like, let's try to be a little more, a little more purposeful.

519
00:36:38,660 --> 00:36:39,220
Why don't we do that?

520
00:36:39,540 --> 00:36:39,840
Yeah.

521
00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:41,240
So that's the goal of intersect.

522
00:36:41,660 --> 00:36:45,340
I mean, the best part of the newsletter, at least, you know, it's, as somebody who now

523
00:36:45,340 --> 00:36:49,660
reads it all the time is again, I do like how you're trying to throw things in context,

524
00:36:49,660 --> 00:36:49,880
right?

525
00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:50,760
It's not a link farm.

526
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,520
It's, Hey, here's a really, you know, it's a thoughtful opening.

527
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,700
Here's like three things you should take away.

528
00:36:55,860 --> 00:36:58,740
Cause you and I've talked about this, Derek Coté, you and I too.

529
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,620
I think I, I just still don't know how people filter the unbelievable amount of things

530
00:37:02,620 --> 00:37:04,360
happening in our space and make good choices.

531
00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:06,160
Like, it still fascinates me.

532
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,860
So I think we're trying to, you know, with this all started, cause Derek wanted to kind

533
00:37:09,860 --> 00:37:13,780
of help make a difference and helping people focus on things that matter and then try to

534
00:37:13,780 --> 00:37:15,280
sift through all the craziness.

535
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,040
But, you know, do you see that as a part of the responsibility, Derek?

536
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,700
Yeah, that's, that's absolutely it.

537
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:24,260
I mean, I thought it occurred to me, right.

538
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,120
What occurred to me pretty early on was like, there's a value.

539
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,700
And I think, you know, part of it is like the navel gazing of, of someone with a journalism

540
00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:33,520
background, like, well, you know, what's the future of journalism?

541
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:34,420
How do you make that work?

542
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,540
And then newsletters always pop up as the thing.

543
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,280
And then you start to think like, why is that?

544
00:37:38,980 --> 00:37:41,120
And frame, well, one of it is like the personal connection.

545
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:46,840
And the other thing is if a curated newsletter just does the job that you don't have time

546
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:47,120
to do.

547
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,740
I mean, if I open up Feedly and go, holy crap, there are over a thousand unread things

548
00:37:51,740 --> 00:37:53,960
just from this week, I got some work to do.

549
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:54,120
Right.

550
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,980
And I don't, I don't, I'm willing to shoulder that burden and hopefully put, you know, give,

551
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,220
give the, you know, give readers the output of that.

552
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:03,740
Right.

553
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,820
And what happens in the middle in that black box of my, my judgment is, is work that they

554
00:38:07,820 --> 00:38:08,320
don't have to do.

555
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:08,600
So.

556
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:09,440
Yeah.

557
00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:09,760
Yeah.

558
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,880
And I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're hitting on something that like, you know, also

559
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,260
I should mention, I need to go dig this up, but we have a, a lost interview episode

560
00:38:18,260 --> 00:38:21,220
that we did way back when from my other podcast.

561
00:38:21,220 --> 00:38:22,440
I need to finally post that.

562
00:38:22,540 --> 00:38:24,960
We talk about all this stuff for like three hours.

563
00:38:25,060 --> 00:38:28,800
I think it's actually like 40 minutes, but it was seemed like three hours.

564
00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:32,620
It was packed with so much information and analysis that it seemed like it had to have

565
00:38:32,620 --> 00:38:38,760
been more, but it is like, uh, aside from those, uh, uh, sort of like overeaters, like

566
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:43,420
I think the three of us are when it comes to like tech news stuff, like, man, no one's

567
00:38:43,420 --> 00:38:47,020
really like figured out how to curate that stuff.

568
00:38:47,020 --> 00:38:54,160
Like, I think the, the, the thing that I found that works slightly okay is like, uh, like

569
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,440
you ever use nuzzle, like that's kind of good for, for doing this stuff.

570
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,940
But like, then it's also, you know, has the annoying, like what everyone else wants to read

571
00:39:03,940 --> 00:39:04,100
thing.

572
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:10,580
It seems like, it seems like there's an inherent, like, um, I don't know, business problem in

573
00:39:10,580 --> 00:39:15,180
trying to like be a robot that's curating these things is like, I always want to get

574
00:39:15,180 --> 00:39:20,960
my like very, uh, low value as far as advertising, I guess, I don't know, news stuff and read

575
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:21,400
all that.

576
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,920
And then there's always some tab that's just like, here's like the big gigantic mainstream

577
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,760
news that we would rather you start reading.

578
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,320
And I don't know, it just never works out very well to have like a nicely curated set

579
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,880
of news, or maybe it's just hard to actually find it.

580
00:39:34,940 --> 00:39:36,120
And it takes a lot of time.

581
00:39:36,820 --> 00:39:42,620
And, uh, yeah, I, I found, I thought you can pick your sources and that's, that's good.

582
00:39:42,620 --> 00:39:46,300
But if your sources like tech crunch, good luck or Politico kind of like, right.

583
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,320
And then, cause, cause they don't sub curate and then some places will actually let you curate,

584
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,440
which is, I think is the way most publications should do it.

585
00:39:53,460 --> 00:39:56,860
If they're producing a lot is to curate by topic, which makes it a little easier.

586
00:39:56,860 --> 00:40:01,100
So I can have a feed for like X publication, X, Y topic.

587
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,780
That's super, that's, that's useful.

588
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,980
But, and I found the algorithm, the strictly algorithmic tools.

589
00:40:08,220 --> 00:40:11,440
I never, I like, I tried to went back in the day called prismatic, which doesn't exist

590
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:12,640
anymore, but they tried to do it.

591
00:40:13,140 --> 00:40:16,340
They tried to do it based on a shout out to Bradford cross.

592
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:17,100
He's a smart guy.

593
00:40:17,220 --> 00:40:23,180
Um, but, uh, they, yeah, they tried to do you based on your, so based on your social network

594
00:40:23,180 --> 00:40:26,680
and based on other things you liked, you know, try to do a algorithmic way of doing it.

595
00:40:26,820 --> 00:40:28,160
It was, I mean, you would find some stuff.

596
00:40:28,220 --> 00:40:32,320
There's like that serendipity, but it also was, and then as a professional reporter, I

597
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:33,600
was like, well, I'm afraid I'm missing something.

598
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,720
Like what are the, like, if I use this, what if I miss something that I should be seeing?

599
00:40:36,740 --> 00:40:42,540
So yeah, that's kind of like, uh, sometimes it's the manual grind is the, for me is the

600
00:40:42,540 --> 00:40:43,300
only way to do it.

601
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:47,040
Even if I'm, you know, you know, putting a lot more work on the plate.

602
00:40:47,420 --> 00:40:47,740
Yeah.

603
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:48,200
Yeah.

604
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,400
As you, uh, as you chew on all this, as you're just kind of absorbing all of this news and

605
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,560
information, can you point out, you know, one or two things you think are actually under

606
00:40:58,560 --> 00:40:59,320
hyped right now?

607
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,020
Like we're not talking enough about X and maybe one or two things you go, I feel like

608
00:41:03,020 --> 00:41:04,760
we're talking way too much about this.

609
00:41:05,100 --> 00:41:06,320
Anything that fills that for you?

610
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:08,700
That's a good question.

611
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,280
I mean, I don't know.

612
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:19,940
I, I want to say that I want to say that Kubernetes is overhyped just because like there's, there's

613
00:41:19,940 --> 00:41:21,880
so, so, so much talk about.

614
00:41:21,980 --> 00:41:27,060
And I would argue, you know, it's not what I'm going to say.

615
00:41:27,140 --> 00:41:30,740
I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy.

616
00:41:30,860 --> 00:41:35,360
It's, I think the, I think people have convinced themselves it's the future of everything they're

617
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,580
going to do and like, that's what I need to focus on.

618
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:38,960
And there's probably some truth to that.

619
00:41:38,980 --> 00:41:44,020
I just think that it's, as, as we're definitely seeing it's early and that this is going to

620
00:41:44,020 --> 00:41:48,720
be that what you're seeing today is going to be how this looks even, you know, five years

621
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:52,360
from now or fewer is, is something I wouldn't bet my life on.

622
00:41:52,740 --> 00:41:58,460
So I think, I think people, I think what happens now is, is folks are rushing to get ahead of

623
00:41:58,460 --> 00:42:00,540
or get onto something because they don't want to miss out again.

624
00:42:00,580 --> 00:42:03,720
I think a lot of people felt maybe a lot of people felt like they missed out on cloud

625
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:08,620
maybe, or they got in too late, even though it's still by all accounts early in that space.

626
00:42:08,660 --> 00:42:10,480
Like you just don't want to be seen as a laggard.

627
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:16,660
So, so, so folks are rushing to, to get in on that, but I think it's not, you know, I think,

628
00:42:16,740 --> 00:42:22,000
I think that's evolving so fast, that whole space that we're not quite sure how it's going

629
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:22,600
to play out, right?

630
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,120
Serverless might be one of those things as well.

631
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:29,300
So like, so everything is kind of puts us in just the future of, but I, you know, it's

632
00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:30,940
not, not entirely sure.

633
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,340
It's not entirely certain that's going to be the case.

634
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,520
You know, the other thing, but like cloud, I just, just, I'm rambling here, but like,

635
00:42:37,580 --> 00:42:40,260
but cloud computing has changed a lot.

636
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,960
But one thing that hasn't changed is there are still virtual machines, right?

637
00:42:44,020 --> 00:42:47,800
And there's still IaaS and like you get storage and database, like that part of it.

638
00:42:48,060 --> 00:42:50,520
There are these things that aren't going anywhere, right?

639
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,760
And everything above that is kind of up for, up, up to evolve.

640
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,000
I would say underhyped, underhyped is tough.

641
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:03,880
I think I would argue that, you know, I, because I spent a lot of time thinking about writing

642
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:10,800
what AI, artificial intelligence, if someone didn't get that acronym, I think that that's

643
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:16,540
definitely overhyped, but I also think there are some really underhyped aspects of that,

644
00:43:16,700 --> 00:43:21,360
that don't get the attention, you know, the overhyped stuff is like the cloud, you know,

645
00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:25,860
I think some of the facial recognition stuff, although there are privacy concerns, gets a

646
00:43:25,860 --> 00:43:29,080
lot of attention, you know, the existential threat stuff used to get a lot of attention.

647
00:43:29,140 --> 00:43:33,820
It gets less so now, but, but on the other hand, there are these, when, when places write

648
00:43:33,820 --> 00:43:38,800
about like the latest deep mind model that can beat Starcraft or that the, what was it?

649
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:44,920
AlphaGo Zero, which was trained in like a day and was better than all the other Go playing

650
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,860
systems they built.

651
00:43:46,860 --> 00:43:55,360
There are some really, uh, like really big applications for that sort of thing that, that people tend

652
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:56,680
to overlook cause it's complicated.

653
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,400
But I remember when the, when the AlphaGo Zero came out and there was this, like the line

654
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,120
on the end of DeepMind's blog post, which was like, you know, you could use this for materials

655
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:10,040
science and, you know, drug discovery and, you know, like a lot of hard scientific problems

656
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,660
could be run through a deep learning system like this and really do something powerful.

657
00:44:13,660 --> 00:44:17,820
That's much more than speech recognition or, or object recognition or something.

658
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:22,660
And I, so I think there are these hard problems with AI that, that tend to get over, that tend

659
00:44:22,660 --> 00:44:23,300
to get overlooked.

660
00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:28,020
Um, but if we, if we focused on that, then maybe when, when someone says AI is naturally

661
00:44:28,020 --> 00:44:32,040
into the economy and do this, like we would have like really, where's the details?

662
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:36,500
But if the details was because look at what we're doing, but that, you know, that I don't

663
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:39,920
think that's what anyone is thinking when they're writing those, those analysis or those stories.

664
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:40,900
So I don't know.

665
00:44:40,980 --> 00:44:45,420
I think edge computing, frankly, might be under hype too, if that's possible, just because

666
00:44:45,420 --> 00:44:50,840
you, if you think about it as servers at the edge, like the Chick-fil-A thing you mentioned

667
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,320
earlier, like that's one aspect of it, but when you start, when you start thinking about

668
00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:02,700
5g and, you know, interconnected devices, personal devices, and how, how our like personal communications

669
00:45:02,700 --> 00:45:06,200
and networking and stuff is going to play out, like there's a, there's a lot that's going

670
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:12,200
to happen there that I spoke with, um, on my, on my podcast, which, uh, I, I'm not doing

671
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,640
any more actively, but I spoke with Jason Hoffman.

672
00:45:14,740 --> 00:45:18,380
He actually, he co-founded joint back in the day as cloud or cloud, another cloud provider

673
00:45:18,380 --> 00:45:22,380
that, that, that still exists, I guess, but, and not, uh, you know, not light in the world

674
00:45:22,380 --> 00:45:22,800
on fire.

675
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:28,020
Um, and, and he's, he's at this company getting the startup now called mobile edge X, and he's

676
00:45:28,020 --> 00:45:30,220
a really smart guy about networking and computing stuff.

677
00:45:30,260 --> 00:45:35,160
But one of the things we talked about was like, you know, if you're, if you think about virtual

678
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:40,740
reality or augmented reality or, or any of the, any of the new ways of interacting and even

679
00:45:40,740 --> 00:45:41,760
mobile payments, right.

680
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,680
If you think about the ways we're doing these things now, there is a strong component of like,

681
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,600
what's the network going to look like that supports that?

682
00:45:48,660 --> 00:45:50,880
What do the devices have to have that supports that?

683
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:51,600
How does this all look?

684
00:45:51,620 --> 00:45:54,160
And I think that part of it gets, it's overlooked.

685
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,840
If we think about edge computing as simply like there are driverless cars and small data

686
00:45:58,840 --> 00:45:59,740
centers at the edge, right?

687
00:45:59,740 --> 00:46:01,740
Like, or, or servers in a factory.

688
00:46:01,740 --> 00:46:06,120
There's just a, there are a lot of pieces there that might, that might be able to do a

689
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,500
lot of really unique things that we've only talked about up until now.

690
00:46:09,500 --> 00:46:15,200
So I think it's just, I think the, the underhyped parts typically tend to be in my opinion, but

691
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:20,140
it's just like people willing to go a step or two below the surface to talk about how this

692
00:46:20,140 --> 00:46:20,920
actually pans out.

693
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:21,400
Yeah.

694
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:30,020
Over, over the, the three things sort of like a cloud, cloud slash Kubernetes and AI and edge

695
00:46:30,020 --> 00:46:30,300
stuff.

696
00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:34,860
Like there's at least, at least as I'm thinking, as you're talking, there's a, there's a running

697
00:46:34,860 --> 00:46:39,100
thing of like, so what do, what do we actually do with this stuff, right?

698
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:42,320
Like, like what are the actual features and things we can do with it?

699
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:42,500
Right.

700
00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:48,040
Like, like as far as, uh, you know, I guess it's cool to be able to beat someone at go

701
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:49,960
and, and jeopardy or whatever.

702
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:54,800
That's certainly, I mean, you know, entertainment is a valuable part of our world and a big industry.

703
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,120
Uh, but, but on the other hand, just as, as, as you were talking about, right, like we

704
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,740
got to know when that chicken expires or like what kind of coffee you want, just sort

705
00:47:02,740 --> 00:47:04,220
of like boring AI stuff.

706
00:47:04,340 --> 00:47:08,460
And I always get excited when I, uh, excited, I don't know.

707
00:47:08,460 --> 00:47:13,900
I guess I do get interested when, when I hear about like just some boring novel use of machine

708
00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:17,420
learning or AI for something that, that would, uh, I don't know.

709
00:47:17,420 --> 00:47:20,140
Cause a lot of that seems to be stuff that would make my life easier.

710
00:47:21,220 --> 00:47:21,620
Right.

711
00:47:21,740 --> 00:47:26,820
But boring novel uses or amazing, you know, potentially world changing uses.

712
00:47:26,820 --> 00:47:27,100
Right.

713
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,920
But it's, you just, you have to do the digging to get there.

714
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:30,400
Exactly.

715
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:35,340
If more people thought about this stuff application first, you know, then I think you would, we,

716
00:47:35,340 --> 00:47:36,540
we, we might be onto something.

717
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:36,960
Yeah.

718
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:37,400
Yeah.

719
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:37,960
It's right.

720
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,800
You think like, what would I build, what would I build to do?

721
00:47:40,860 --> 00:47:42,280
Like what, what's the application I want?

722
00:47:42,340 --> 00:47:43,460
What's the thing I want to do?

723
00:47:43,860 --> 00:47:46,760
And then, and then, and then work back from there versus I want this thing.

724
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:47,400
Oh yeah.

725
00:47:47,820 --> 00:47:51,720
No, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's a good like mental framing for like this, this

726
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:55,800
little discussion here of overhyped underhyped is like, instead of thinking of the

727
00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:00,740
technology, like, as you say, think application first and see if you can work backwards to

728
00:48:00,740 --> 00:48:05,000
I don't know, Istio or whatever.

729
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,620
And then, and then, so, so, so, you know, as, since you bring it up, like I've noticed

730
00:48:09,620 --> 00:48:14,760
some, some, some agencies and analysts, people are spending a lot of money on this phrase

731
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:15,580
edge computing.

732
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,140
And so like, what, what is edge computing?

733
00:48:19,340 --> 00:48:23,780
Well, I think it's many things to many people, you know, Gartner was at a Gartner conference

734
00:48:23,780 --> 00:48:24,380
a few months ago.

735
00:48:24,460 --> 00:48:29,260
Gartner certainly has its preferred definition of it, which I can't recite off the top of my

736
00:48:29,260 --> 00:48:36,340
head, but I, I, I just think of it as, and maybe it's just, I would say it's, it's, it's

737
00:48:36,340 --> 00:48:37,260
smarter things.

738
00:48:37,380 --> 00:48:41,560
I mean, I think the definition of it is basically like not a centralized cloud, right?

739
00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:46,480
If we look at it like that, but also it's not just, obviously not just like server closets

740
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:47,240
and whatnot, right?

741
00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:52,520
I think it's, it's, it's that, it's that distributed, those distributed computing devices, plus the

742
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:57,780
network connectivity, plus probably some level of intelligence, right?

743
00:48:58,140 --> 00:48:58,360
Yeah.

744
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,340
So I think, I think that's always implied, even if it's not expressly stated.

745
00:49:01,340 --> 00:49:06,760
So I think if you combine some sort of machine learning, plus like low latency networking,

746
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:14,000
plus, you know, small, you know, at least, at least much smaller than cloud scale, uh, down

747
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:18,920
to the device or sensor level, um, you know, computing element.

748
00:49:19,140 --> 00:49:19,620
Yeah.

749
00:49:19,740 --> 00:49:19,980
Yeah.

750
00:49:20,060 --> 00:49:22,880
And then I think, I think to layer on your framing, right?

751
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:28,080
Like I think, so first of all, that all, that all comports with what I've stumbled over.

752
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:28,840
That makes sense.

753
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:34,220
Basically like instead of internet of things, it's like internet of computers to be kind of

754
00:49:34,220 --> 00:49:35,020
silly about it.

755
00:49:35,380 --> 00:49:40,180
Uh, but like, I think, I think, you know, with your framing, the thing that is probably

756
00:49:40,180 --> 00:49:43,100
more interesting is like, so what are you going to do with that?

757
00:49:43,140 --> 00:49:46,980
Like, what's the application for, for edge computing as, or edge stuff.

758
00:49:46,980 --> 00:49:50,400
And I think that maybe that's, maybe that's what I've been missing a lot in the conversations

759
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:51,780
is like, you know, sure.

760
00:49:51,780 --> 00:49:56,920
You got all these whiz bang, you know, boxes hanging out in a dark room somewhere doing something,

761
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,020
but like the, something that they're doing is what's actually interesting about what edge

762
00:50:01,020 --> 00:50:01,600
computing is.

763
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,420
Cause then like you're saying, it's like, what's the difference between just like a couple

764
00:50:05,420 --> 00:50:09,780
of machines that are blinking in a closet, you know, versus edge computing.

765
00:50:10,220 --> 00:50:14,820
And, uh, I guess, I guess what they actually do and what applications they, they go after

766
00:50:14,820 --> 00:50:16,120
is what makes the difference.

767
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:21,700
Otherwise it's just like, you know, I don't know the equivalent of netware in 2020, like

768
00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:23,400
not, not really that big of a deal.

769
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:24,160
Yeah.

770
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:29,840
I mean, if I were being a complete cynic, I might say that a lot of, a lot of vendors

771
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:35,200
that, that started up trying to push edge computing from the infrastructure side, we're like, well,

772
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:36,340
we can't compete in the cloud anymore.

773
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,360
So how do we make it look like cloud providers aren't, aren't the thing, right?

774
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:41,320
Like cloud is the future.

775
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,860
And then, by the way, there's no saying that the cloud providers aren't going to just dominate

776
00:50:44,860 --> 00:50:47,380
the, the edge computing future that it is indeed.

777
00:50:48,380 --> 00:50:50,900
Because to your point, they're all involved in it too, right?

778
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:51,740
Like, so, right.

779
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,340
They own the devices, by the way.

780
00:50:53,460 --> 00:50:53,700
Yeah.

781
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:53,960
Yeah.

782
00:50:53,980 --> 00:50:59,040
Which almost, almost turning, uh, your cynic point to, you know, your cynic persona to

783
00:50:59,040 --> 00:50:59,960
an optimistic thing.

784
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:04,820
If like, if everyone in, in the, the market is kind of going after it, then there actually

785
00:51:04,820 --> 00:51:05,660
is something there.

786
00:51:05,660 --> 00:51:10,800
It's not just a, um, defensive posture against something else.

787
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:11,520
Yeah.

788
00:51:11,620 --> 00:51:13,600
No, I, I mean, I think there's something there really.

789
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,380
I mean, but it's probably things, what I, what I found is that, you know, there are lots

790
00:51:17,380 --> 00:51:18,360
of things we used to talk about.

791
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:22,460
I remember covering big data back in the early days and it was like, you need all the data,

792
00:51:22,580 --> 00:51:22,740
right?

793
00:51:22,740 --> 00:51:25,880
The, the unreasonable effectiveness of, of big data, right?

794
00:51:25,900 --> 00:51:27,440
And you, so you need all that.

795
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,880
And then, and then there's all the stuff that's only happening today was like some pipe dream

796
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,060
of that was 10 years ago, but it's only happening because we have the networks we have now where

797
00:51:36,060 --> 00:51:39,640
it's only happening because we have the smart devices in our pockets that we have.

798
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,040
Like, like all these things are happening today.

799
00:51:42,620 --> 00:51:47,360
And I mean, and it's, it's basically because of the things that I think are that we call

800
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:48,760
the edge today, right?

801
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:53,380
So the data processing, all these things are part of it, but it was totally reliant, like

802
00:51:53,380 --> 00:51:59,060
any sort of, you know, real time and accurate geo-fencing or, you know, it was always gonna

803
00:51:59,060 --> 00:52:02,600
be like, you're going to get a deal when you walk into your phone and knows you're in Seattle

804
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,320
or something like whatever, whatever it was that people were like, this was mind blowing.

805
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:07,880
Like now you can do that.

806
00:52:07,980 --> 00:52:12,620
And it's only because of, and it seems mundane, but it's only because of these, these bigger

807
00:52:12,620 --> 00:52:14,480
infrastructural pieces that have been put in place.

808
00:52:14,660 --> 00:52:15,500
So, yeah, yeah.

809
00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:19,520
I remember, I think I forget if I mentioned this on some episode a long time ago, but to

810
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,440
your point of like in-store stuff, you, you probably talk with, had similar conversations,

811
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:28,280
but I remember talking with some, I don't know, some Nordic or Northern European person

812
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:33,420
who worked at one of those companies that like, uh, offers you coupons in a store and

813
00:52:33,420 --> 00:52:38,260
like the, um, the way they had to implement it, this is kind of like the Starbucks thing.

814
00:52:38,260 --> 00:52:43,140
It's like, they had to go through all these crazy hoops about like basically identifying

815
00:52:43,140 --> 00:52:44,960
your Mac address on your phone.

816
00:52:45,340 --> 00:52:49,820
Uh, you know, if you logged into something, then like, it's not a problem, right?

817
00:52:49,820 --> 00:52:54,360
Like, like if they could scan your license plate and you held your license plate up in front

818
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,840
of the camera, or even better, you walked into the store and typed in your license plate

819
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,100
number, it wouldn't be a big deal.

820
00:53:00,100 --> 00:53:00,440
Right.

821
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:04,480
Uh, but really, you know, they can track your Mac address and a couple of other things.

822
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,660
And then, so they can kind of like track that over time.

823
00:53:06,660 --> 00:53:12,560
But then he was telling me the annoying thing is like, I forget versus Android or iPhones or

824
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:17,040
whatever is that oftentimes the phones will just like change their Mac address.

825
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:22,120
And so there's like all this stuff you have to put up with and, and to your point, right?

826
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:26,420
Like there's a whole lot of like maximal data collection and then analyzing things that

827
00:53:26,420 --> 00:53:31,700
you can do, but like you need that capability, uh, in order to do it in the fast networks

828
00:53:31,700 --> 00:53:33,920
and all that stuff, uh, behind there.

829
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,020
So apps.

830
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:36,680
Yeah.

831
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:37,020
Yeah.

832
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:37,360
Yeah.

833
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:41,400
You need the actual, uh, you need the actual thing that does the thing.

834
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:43,160
Exactly.

835
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:44,720
Not just a box.

836
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:45,380
Well, great.

837
00:53:45,420 --> 00:53:50,280
Well, uh, I'm glad we could finally get you over, uh, get, get you over metaphorically

838
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,080
speaking over here, but, uh, as a guest on there.

839
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,800
So, so, uh, if people want to follow up, uh, tell, tell them where the intersect thing

840
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,140
is again and, and your, your Twitter handle and all that kind of stuff.

841
00:54:00,180 --> 00:54:04,140
Where, where can they, they, in a very non-creepy way, follow you around the internet?

842
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:05,240
Yes.

843
00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:09,860
Most importantly, yeah, you can go to pivotal.io slash intersect and you can read there.

844
00:54:09,900 --> 00:54:12,000
You can also sign up for the newsletter, which I would recommend doing.

845
00:54:12,060 --> 00:54:16,680
It comes every Thursday, ideally to, to your inbox and yeah.

846
00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:20,040
And you can also, you can find me at Derek Harris on Twitter.

847
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,780
I'm not very active these days, but maybe that'll change.

848
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,100
So again, you can, you can find me there.

849
00:54:26,460 --> 00:54:26,720
That's right.

850
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,200
I think the idea of cloud bursting has moved to Twitter.

851
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,340
There's Twitter bursting just every now and then there's a lot of activity.

852
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:34,240
You wouldn't, you wouldn't just have bursts there.

853
00:54:34,420 --> 00:54:37,120
Well, as always, this has been a Pivotal Conversations.

854
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:42,000
If you want to get the, uh, the back catalog of episodes, several years of it, you

855
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:48,360
can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations and also about every Thursday, not this week.

856
00:54:48,380 --> 00:54:54,460
However, uh, we post the full show notes glorious as they are over at pivotal.io slash podcast.

857
00:54:54,460 --> 00:54:56,260
And with that, we'll see everyone next time.

858
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:57,460
Bye-bye.

859
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:11,940
Now this reminds me, speaking of pizza of one last thing I wanted to get in here is, is, uh, uh, my, my, I don't know

860
00:55:11,940 --> 00:55:12,740
what's up with my dog.

861
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:13,840
She's upset about pizza.

862
00:55:14,340 --> 00:55:15,080
Probably hungry.

863
00:55:15,260 --> 00:55:15,380
Yeah.

864
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:16,980
I'll have to do some editing.

865
00:55:17,100 --> 00:55:17,520
Two bugs.

866
00:55:18,060 --> 00:55:21,840
Hey, let me see.

867
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:22,860
Let me make a note of this.

868
00:55:23,380 --> 00:55:25,360
Two, two minutes, dog barks.

869
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:26,160
This is terrible.

870
00:55:27,580 --> 00:55:29,580
And now the dog thinks I want to play with her.

871
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:32,740
Two minutes, dog barks.

872
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:33,640
Okay.

873
00:55:33,940 --> 00:55:34,560
Don't worry.

874
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:35,180
Don't worry.

875
00:55:36,780 --> 00:55:38,640
Uh, all right.

876
00:55:38,900 --> 00:55:40,560
Uh, and then around two 30.

877
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,780
So this reminds me of something I was realizing recently speaking.

878
00:55:44,860 --> 00:55:45,880
I was, I was eating some.